Mini 690 - Grimmmafia (Game over, the flavor returns...)

[Plum]

/confirmatory

[Plum]

I, too, wait in eager anticipation. First game I'm not replacing into, second game overall.

[Plum]

Gotta say, a Grimms Fairy Tale mafia makes a certain sense in the way that the Grimm's brothers tales were not all happy, they were pretty violent and dark, much like mafia

They were kind of . . .

grim(m)

?

[Plum]

vote kloud1516

the dude has Sephiroh as an avatar, obvious scum

By the way, Wolf, my avatar is probably just as obvscum-vibing as any, it's just kinda obscure, I suppose . . . To me, Final Fantasy is obscure .

Vote:SpyreX

. Misplaced capital letter there, dude.

[Plum]

He's Maeglin, an Elf-dude. Betrayed a hidden city (he was the King's nephew) to the Big Bad of the story and helped him out when he destroyed said city. Kinda mafia-ish (actually I want to someday mod a trilogy of Silmarillion-themed games someday) situation for him. But this is rabid-fangirl Plum rambling.

So help in my quest
it is in your interest.

How can we be sure of that?

[Plum]

and I am not sure about helping someone who was a villain in a story.. hmmm

My thoughts exactly.

[Plum]

I approve of Dahill's approach to SpyreX's mission.

Just a note here: I'm never availible Friday evening through Saturday evening for about 25-26 hours or so; the exact times will vary a bit throughout the year.

Kloud - Plum rhymes with scum .

[Plum]

Unvote:SpyreX

. We're out of the random stage; the vote's served its purpose.

Wow this game moved fast . I hope it won't be too hard for me to catch up when I go V/LA Monday through Wednesday or maybe Thursday. Luckily that's the only time I can think of that I'll be away for the forseeable future.

Anyway, I'm going to do a recap/analysis of Fleur's posts; it'll help me make sense of it, if nothing else.

First she says that she thinks she knows who SpyreX is and will fight for his life. She then says she's thought about it and has a good feeling about him, and follows up by saying that his rhyming post restriction makes her think of a story she assumes is pro-town. That's rather much to assume; in addition, it becomes clear to me here that she's probably not thinking of the character we seem to be thinking of, as she only notes his rhyming; she acknowledges this. Furthermore, it's hard to tell what impression she actually thought and appears to be contradicting herself. Weird early defensiveness towards SpyreX, too, though his response telling her not to defend him, in my mind, a null-tell. She further elaborates that she doesn't know SpyreX's role but thought we had to say his 'avatar name' (title?) in the thread. I recently skimmed the beginning of a newbie game where a newbie thought that the titles were game-relevent (interestingly enough, SpyreX's current title appears to be 'Mafia Scum' ). I don't like her tactical decision to 'be quiet', either. Lurking is in almost all cases not a viable tactic for town or scum, no?

Her responses to questions state that she thought she knew his character and thought he was pro-town, which is rather at odds with her comment about it having to do with 'avatar names'. The explaination for the defense is rather odd as well - as Dahill said, she seems to have defended him to be contrary, or at least without any relevent reason. Furthermore, as Wolf said, at that time it was only him and me expressing at best moderate distrust of SpyreX; this doesn't sit well with me.

Then

she implies that we're not thinking about what her role might be: 'What if my death means that all the town dies? What if my death means that all the town dies?'. Huh? It's hard to tell whether the statement was meant literally (that her death would cause the death of the whole town), which would make me think lying scum, but it's still at least vaguely threatening and in the wrong place altogether. As far as I can tell, at that point she was under pressure but had only two votes, as many as she'd had in the random stage (heck, I'm a bit too lazy to look it up, but they might have

been

random votes), though Bihazard attempted to vote her but forgot to unvote, I think. She follows up by saying that her role is important for both townies and scum. I'm not sure what to make of this; she might be scum being a little too close to truthful or town hoping that it will convince scum not to vote her. She's worried about claiming because she's worried about being NK'd and wonders if there's a Doc to protect her. But, well, she claimed as I was writing this up.

i am important for scum, because i am an important player in the game-as i said, what if they kill me and this means they win the whole game? even if not, as a member of town i would hate being killed as an important member-for town's sake
that's why i felt uncomfortable with revealing my character earlier, and asked for the doctor to take care of me during nights

Weird

to think that killing you means the scum win if the mod hasn't told you anything to that effect.

So, some questions for Fleur: You didn't seem to think what we were thinking about SpyreX's mission. What,

exactly

, were you thinking. Detail would be appreciated, even if you end up feeling that you're being redundant. Also, you said that your role is highly important for town as well as scum, and that's why we should give you a chance. Why do you think that?

HOS:Fleur

.

But it says "town" in my role description i gave you

.

Pie is good. (Town) in role doesn't mean a whole whole lot.

[Plum]

I'm not sure what reason Dahill has for asking Fleur to claim her mission, but as she's so close to being lynched I'm not sure how much harm would come of it. Her desperation to survive is a little excessive for someone who appears to have claimed vanilla, I agree.

Fleur: Why did you 'what if' with no basis/did you have a basis for doing so, besides flavor speculation? What made you think your role might be that crucial and valuble? Also - what

exactly

were you thinking regarding SpyreX? Please elaborate, even if you feel you're being redundant.

[Plum]

I see the sense of her claiming her mission as it might clear up some things. Also I am thinking about if she was a townie wheter she be this desperate especially since she is a newbie.

I think newb town are more likely to be desperate to stay alive.

Also, I third/fourth everyone's reaction to

I was told to persuade you instead of not talking, and that was the only argument i could think of

Fleur, elaborate, please. Who told you, etc? Because that statement looks reeeaallly scumy as it stands.

[Plum]

i don't see sense in revealing everything, for you'll get everything after i;'m done, aren't you? what's the point-you'll be surprised.

Are you sure that's true? I rescanned the rules and didn't see anything about mission-reveal on death; it seems to be left ambiguous at best. Maybe you'll ruin our surprise if you tell us, but I'm the more suspicious of you for refusing to claim your mission.

[Plum]

i don't see the fun of the game after letting everybody know who i am and what is my mission either it is pro town or bad. so, if it makes you suspicious-pity, that's fair enough, but i'd rather play it shorter then revealing everything about me and remain with nothing

Playing mysterious isn't earning you any credit. If you're town, revealing your mission may help us make better-informed decisions. It's not just about fun; you win with the town even if you die, assuming you're a townie. Withholding information in this case is pretty scummy, and in combination with the rest of your play has earned my vote. L-2, I think.

Vote: Fleur

.

[Plum]

Unvote:Fleur

. The mission reveal was the right thing to do, and now that she's not refusing to claim, she looks somewhat less scummy. Again, Fleur, could you explain in as much detail as you feel appropriate exactly what you were thinking with the SpyreX situation earlier? I know you may feel you're being redundant doing so, but it would be appreciated. I've asked you to do this at least once. Please do so.

On Gorrad and Porkens. One thing I noticed is that Gorrad accused Fleur of playing the newbie card at a point where Fleur hadn't done that - Wolf made an explanatory post about the random voting stage and stated it was under the assumption that this is Fleur's first game; Fleur replied that it was. She did not state that she should be let off the hook for stuff because she was a newbie or anything like that. Gorrad's first vote was on Fleur in the random stage. In his next post after his random vote he stated that Fleur was using the newbie card (she didn't seem to have been at that time, as above) and called for more votes on her. Asked by Fleur to elaborate why he seems to so strongly want her lynched, he replies:

See above post. You're using the newbie card- you're using it BIG TIME. I don't trust it.

At that point, not true at all.

I want to hear more from Porkens; I see where the suspicions are coming from but think the case on Gorrad is stronger; on reread, Bio's points on Gorrad seems decent, too.

Vote: Gorrad

.

[Plum]

Wow, so what, y'all decided to vote me because I had nothing to contribute for all of one post? Sheesh. I've been swamped the last few days and haven't had much chance to post, and when I did I knew I wouldn't have much time to post so I wanted to voice my aproval of the direction the town was taking. Also, when I said Fleur was using the newbie card, she WAS. I stand by that.

Sure. Where was she using the newb card at that point? In my book, acknowledging the fact that one is new =/= scummy newbie card use, especially if the acknowledgement comes in response to someone asking whether the player in question is a newbie. So, explain, please.

Also, you seem to imply that very-newb Fleur wouldn't be capable of fakeclaiming the mission the way she did. Do we know whether Pie Is Good extends to mission fake-claims as well? I was under the impression that mod-provided safeclaims might very well include missions.

[Plum]

The card she was using was not as an excuse yet, but rather the whole 'I assume it's day' right after the day post, etc. Obvious newbie play in a non-newbie game. That just screamed to me that she was trying to play us for saps.

Did you check and see that she joined the site four days before the game started and consider that? These following are all Gorrad quotes (I'm being ever so slightly lazy and not putting his name in the code):

Further:

I dislike the newbie card. I'm not sure I've ever seen it played by town. More Fleur votes!

Next:

See above post. You're using the newbie card- you're using it BIG TIME. I don't trust it.

Then:

Also, when I said Fleur was using the newbie card, she WAS. I stand by that.

Finally:

Also, I misphrased- there, she was acting in a way that made me think she was using the newbie card. If I was in that situation again, I would think so again. However, her later actions made it clear it was not the card, but rather the fact that she is a newb.

[Plum]

Just to remind everyone that I'll be V/LA until Thursday evening, or Thursday midday if my school computers are in a really really good mood and let me access the site and post.

[Plum]

Hello friends, I'm back, have skimmed what I miss, will hopefully do a more in-depth reread tonight and perhaps post.

[Plum]

As promised, I'm doing a reread, so I'm going to post my thoughts as I read and summarize at the end, I think. This may echo somethings others have said, but I'm typing it out as I see it.

First of all, on reread Fleur's explaination (post #193) of her actions seem like fairly reasonable of a newbie town who's trying to grasp things but having trouble. She made mistakes, but in context, especially with her very earliest posts, she seems an acutely newbish town. Could still be scum, but her exlaination cleared up quite a few things, and for now she's at slightly above baseline suspicion from me.

Porkens, whose case I didn't address at the time, plus what's happened since I've been V/LA: Vote did seem rather opportunistic, and I very much don't like that it was placed without any explaiation or analysis. His interpretation of Fleur's roleclaim (before the mission claim) is a sort of subjective thing: Looking at it again, I can see why he might have assumed her mission was what it is at first, without the mission claim.

Then the unexpected action to fulfill SpyreX's mission, saying that SpyreX seems pro-town to him. No explaination there. As to whether it makes him more scummy or townie, well, it all seems a bit WIFOM-y to me. Either scum or town might have made that move, and it would depend especially on the individual player. He could do it to gain town points, or to help a scumbuddy, or could be town and sincerely thought SpyreX pro town and helping him complete his mission at that point, without consulting the town, the right thing to do. Not the most pro-town, in my view, thing I've ever seen done, but somewhat ambiguous as well. I didn't love the fact that he didn't consult the town on what he did or give many solid reasons, as below. I disagree with his reasoning that scum wouldn't openly try to complete a mission; SpyreX's mission seemed to be the sort of thing he had to tell us about. I don't see any other way to get someone to post a one-word post saying 'Rumpelstiltskin'. The other reasons are, in order, somewhat fair (SpyreX's consistent position on Fleur and lack of scumminess made him seem pro-town) and iffy (he wants to get an idea of what the mission bonuses are like). Minor suspicion, or at least hightened alertness on him, but at this point there's a bit too much WIFOM, in my opinion, to make too much of a case of his actions on SpyreX's mission. Also: I'm intrigued, in a positive way, by Porkens' breadcrumbing, kinda good gut feeling on that.

Gorrad: Has posted very little during my V/LA. I don't feel compelled to unvote at this time, nor do I think that leaving my vote where it is will cause a precarious situation. My suspicions on him stand.

SpyreX: Became a pro-twon vig on completion of his mission, apparently, which is good. It's possible that he's scum and lying about the bonus, sure, but as I read him just after the bonus was awarded, I thought much more likely town. On the other hand, he's sticking pretty hard with his case on Fleur. On the third hand, Fleur's play has been somewhat questionable. Though I interpret her as more likely newb-town, SpyreX doesn't seem to. @ SpyreX: Could you look at Fleur's post #193 and tell me why you don't find it a decent explaiantion of her thought process and don't think that her explaiantion indicates newb-town, or at least neutral-newb mistakes? Granted everyone interpreted her bit about 'what if if I'm killed the town loses' thing differently and she's done other questionable things, but if you're focusing so much on her I'd like to see your thoughts on that post.

Gorrad and in a small way Plum (no offense to either) could have the same thing said about them at that time.

None taken, but Wolf, and everyone else: I've already stated that I'll never post Friday sundown through Saturday evening. I hope you don't consider it lurking if there's a 25-27 or so hour window during the week I'm

micro

-V/LA; in any case, you do know. I can give you exact times each week, I think, if you want me to.

[Plum]

Thanks for the in-depth post on Fleur, SpyreX. While for the past while or so I've been thinking that she seems more likely newb town than newb scum, that's been a bit more on the gut level. I still think so, but feel less certain about it. It may be that my mentality is colored by a game I'm playing in which a player did a very many scummy and/or newb-scum-ish things, and, replacing in, I thought 'newbies can always exceed your expectations'; he did turn out to be town. While that does not by any means mean that Fleur is definitely town, well, I'm keeping in mind that she is new and could be exceeding our wildest expctations. But your case is ver good; she has done scummy things since her role and mission claim, and I don't feel comfortable letting that stuff go just because I think it's possible she's making newb-town mistakes. Basically, though, what I need right now is a good, solid, and logical refutation by Fleur on the case you made on her. Especially I dislike the claims that you called her stupid and that Porkens considered you (SpyreX) pro-town because you didn't vote for him; both of these seem to be clearly untrue. She seems to be voting a claimed vig on what seems to be only somewhat more substantial than an OMGUS.

FOS:Fleur

.

So, Fleur, please address SpyreX's case, if you will. And the lies I pointed out. There they are.

Gorrad: If the town's persuing cases that don't interest you or you don't find strong enough to argue for, tell us why. Doesn't have to be a long post just something like 'the town seems to be focusing on this case on player X, and I don't think it's relevent because Y, and instead I think we should hear more about situation Z, which I think might have more potential'. Doesn't have to be long or pointless, just something short and to the point a bit more often that'll help the town find scum. I don't like your lack of participation and your argument that it's your meta. In any case, I'm still unconvinced by your defense on your newb-card statements earlier, and continuously trying to convince us your lurking is just a playstyle thing doesn't make me any happier about it.

Porkens: Frankly, the thing you've done that I think is scummiest is the vote on Dahill 'for reactions'. What sort of reactions were you looking for? Generally, 'for reactions' =/= a legit reason for out-of-the-blue votes. You've done some other things which are questionable, as I and others have pointed out. Minor

FOS: Porkens

there.

[Plum]

You most certainly wrote certain important of the posts SpyreX was quoting after you claimed:

Porkens, you weren't that creative either throughout the games, and I might even say that for me your reasons for say spyrex name are unconvincing; especially second one-

if he doesn't vote for you, he must be pro-town? what?

You also stated that SpyreX called you stupid in response to your arguments was also clearly untrue; though the quoted bit is my primary concern. In any case, it doesn't matter whether you posted something before you claimed or not; it can still be scummy and it can still be legitimately questioned. I'd also like a clear and logical response to SpyreX's case on you, like the explaination you provided in post #193 about some of your actions before your claim.

[Plum]

I am not assuming anything.

I find it more likely that a pro-town character has to find someone than an anti-town.

I just think that it's better to wait to lynch fleur until we have more information, especially since we have two people that are more suspicious, namely Porkens and Gorrad.

The first and second,
dont line up I reckon.

I disagree, but let's put that aside for a moment. Say you're right- how would that make me any more likely to be scum? That goes for everyone who agrees with him.

Um. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought SpyreX was just putting that in his basic response to Sirdanilot; pointing out what he felt a flaw in the logic, nothing against you. I'm also not sure how much of a contradiction there is there. But it seems you're quoting a post about Fleur's claim which Sirdanilot and SpyreX are arguing about which has nothing directly to do with your case and telling us that whether or not it's contradictory it doesn't make you more likely to be scum. Fine, I don't think it does, but I think the way you threw it in there was less than sensical and confusing. Gorrad, what was this about???

Also:

Oh, and for the scum that may or may not be pressing me- my role is probably the coolest one I've seen in a long time. However, it has an unexpected upside- if I die, it does hurt town, but it hurts scum almost as much. It's one of those everyone loses scenarios (looses the scenario, not the game or anything). You aren't getting a lick more out of me until my neck is more on the line than this, but scum keep that in mind.

Deja vu, or did we

just

have an argument about this with Fleur's claim(s)? Sorry if you think I'm parroting here; have been typing this post up and previewed, saw the other posts came in. It still was my reaction when I read this post.

Again, my major problem regarding Gorrad was the whole newb-card business, as I detailed earlier; if anyone wants it repeated or elaborated a bit I'm sure I could do something to rectify that. Then lack of contribution, which was followed by your defense that it's your meta. Great, but that doesn't make you town automatically, I still don't really like it, and it's not the cornerstone of my case against you. You're also, as I said above, being confusing and have softclaimed a powerrole that hurts both town and scum if it dies.

Ok, so first of all Fleur, you arn't helping yourself out at all. When asked to refute a case against yourself, do it. And do it legitmately.

QFT. Fleur, please do so. You haven't really answered the questions or refuted the scum-tells SpyreX noted in his case against you.

[Plum]

First, sorry if it's been longer than it should have been without a post from me. Last night there wasn't a huge amount I felt I had something pressing to give my opinion about; there's been a good deal of posting today, though, so to get down to business:

Porkens and Sirdanilot: Porkens on Fleur's lack of quote-formatting knowledge is a bit vague, but rediculous. Not 'over the top', sorry, I've seen this out of non-scum and it in no way resembles a scumtell, not until she tries to use it to keep herself from being lynched with her back to the wall, telling us she's a harmless newb-town, and even then would be iffy minor bacup reasoning at best. At best. About how far we let Fleur's newbiness slide: She's definitely become a liability for town already. It's hard to answer this question, though we

do

have a claimed vig who happens to think Fleur is pretty scummy.

Not

advocating doing that (like SpyreX said: 'My target stays inside,/So they cant run and hide.'), but noting that while we have a town-aligned NK on the menu it should be used to best advantage. Also, yeah, the 'actively lurking' admission was weird. Again, while his vote looked fairly opportunistic, I don't find the unvote and assumption of mission very scummy. Fleur's claim was worded such that the 'beautiful girl' was prominent, so I don't find Porken's mental leap to finding the princess rediculous. WIFOM, but why would that be more of a scumtell than a towntell anyway? At best if Fleur flips scum Porkens looks a bit more suspicious. However Sirdanilot on reread does seem a bit locked to the Porkens case before the exchanges I'm commenting on. Sirdanilot basically cased and voted Porkens in his first post (fine), second post is vaguely uneasy with both Porkens and Gorrad, next vote is a question on what turned out to be a typo by Fleur, next notes suspicion at Porkens' sudden completion of SpyreX's mission, next asks SpyreX to look at the Porkens case and avoid tunnel-visioning Fleur, next challenges SpyreX on his view of Porkens on specifics of the case, whatever Fleur's alignment, etc. Nothing he says is ligitimately unwarranted, but it does seem like there's some element of tunnel vision here. As Porkens showed, not much strong discussion from him about his apparent #2 scum (do I have it wrong? If so, I apologize), and as above, quite a lot of talk about Porkens and whether he was being scrutinized enough and such. I'll keep my eye on Sirdanilot.

Upgrade to a

HOS: Porkens

. Looking worse, not better.

I like Kloud's points about Fleur's contradictory stances on how important her role was or not; well noted. Fleur, I'm

still

waiting for a logical, decent defense against SpyreX's case on you, post #327. The more you wait and stall the less impressed I am and the more I find you scummy. Get to it ASAP, if you'd be so kind.

Gorrad's claim: Interesting. I'd like more information before I unvote, if I end up doing that. Pie is good, and flavor doesn't seem like it'll always dictate alignment clearly, not that Narrator would indicate anything outright, except maybe neutral/self aligned, though I'm definitely not assuming it is. Didn't see the second breadcrumb you mention; doesn't matter. Basically, I'm still not comfortable with too many of your actions, as I've elaborated. Kloud's posts #426 questioning you is very relevent and I'd be very interested to see your responses here, too.

Players in order of suspicios characters in my view, least to most, excluding myself. When in Rome . . .

Kloud
Biohazard
SpyreX/CoheedCambria/Dahill (about the same)
Wolframnhart
Sirdanilot
Porkens/Fleur (about the same)
Gorrad

[Plum]

Ugh. Misread and thought you were at L-2. These last two pages or so haven't had a votecount, and I recalled CoheedCambria having thought you were at L-2. Should have checked myself. On recheck, you were at L-1.

Unvote:Gorrad

, at least so we ensure more discussion before whatever lynch we make today.

Though I'll say this: It's not so much about your role as your alignment. The town might suffer and the scum might suffer if you get lynched, but if your're scum the town will benefit most by lynching you anyway.

Shoot, did SpyreX just hammer? Preview has just proven me way too slow for this. Don't find you pro-town, but I didn't want it to come down like this at all.

[Plum]

Hm. Apparently SpyreX's vote didn't hammer Gorrad; good, because we need a bit more discussion to determine what to do, expecialy after his role claim. Again role confirmable =/= alignment confirmed. Gorrad could be scum with a safeclaim or claiming his real role and either town, mafia, or third-party, which id Sirdanilot's guess, I see. That's also my first assumption, but I don't find it concrete enough to act on that assumption yet. Though now he's claimed his role; now everyone knows that compliments on flavor text bring Gorrad closer to gaining a bonus for whatever his alignment is.

However:

I understand, Sirdanilot, and it doesn't matter to me if you think I'm third party or town, provided I live and you realise that I'm working to help the town.

Personally, this makes me feel considerably less than comfortable. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but third-party roles aren't town-aligned and therefore don't win with the town and therefore won't be playing with the town's best interests at heart. If you're third-party, Gorrad, why should I trust you to help the town achieve its win condition and not you help yourself only? Provided you live? What if you don't? Basically, why should I trust you to help the town as best you can in all situations if I think you might not be? Sirdanilot posted something similar as I was typing this post, but I'm keeping my thoughts on it here as well.

I wanted to look at Gorrad's Biohaz vote again. Looking back, being posted without reasoning looks potentially scummy. Biohazard has looked to me relatively logical and made decent posts aginst Gorrad and Gorrad's scumtells, like distraction and meta-defense. Gorrad's post before that accused Biohazard of tunnel vision on him. Hm? And that's why his vote was on Porkens for multiple pages previous? Granted he did argue with you and question you on things he perceived as scummy, but personally I think he was justified in doing so. Kind of OMGUS, or at the very least voting without a decent case to back it up.

Sirdanilot: Point noted, minor case retracted. Tunnel vision, if any, was not acute enough to warrant real suspicion; apologies. On Gorrad's short attention span: I've addressed the Biohazard vote; as above, I find it scummy. Vote on me was a bit unexpected, but if Gorrad really thought he was at L-1 it might have been somewhat reasonable, I suppose, and the unvote followed after it was proved that he really was at L-2 and that I didn't want to risk him at L-1 after the claim without more discussion at that point.

Biohazard: In response to Gorrad's post in which he voted me you posted ".....". To be hinest, I couldn't tell what, if anything, you were getting at. Could you please clarify?

The case against Porkens is looking fairly strong now. Sirdan's most recent quick list case, and my thoughts on it:

1. He was joking around, until he saw a fleur bandwagon growing and decided to hop onto it without any reason.
2. He immediately hopped off after fleur claimed, later said that he somehow 'knew' that fleur had to find someone and also assumed it was a pro-town role.
3. He fulfilled spyrex' role without consulting the town.
4. He pointlessly voted dahill 'to see his reactions'.
5. He admits to be actively lurking.
6. Thinks that fleur not knowing the exact quote tag conventions is a scum tell.
7. Attempts to debunk point 1 with a classic crap logic argument (specifically, a 'too-scummy' argument). Attempts to pull his attacker into his cesspool of WIFOM.
8. OMGUS votes me, the vote is based on bad logic.
9. Opportunistically pushes for a Gorrad hammer.
10. Basically admits most of the above points, by saying 'yeah that could be interpreted as a scum tell' and 'yeah I did that'.

1. Yes to joking around, perhaps excessively. The vote looks fairly opportunistic as well; I don't like the lack of case at all, though Fleur did seem fairly scummy. He says he didn't want to clutter and parrot, if I'm correct; I personally don't like that sort of policy and generally prefer to make a decent case whenever I vote, though I'm sure some are more lax; certainly we've had, say, Gorrad do that at least once.

2. As I've explained, with the flavor Fleur provided, specifically mentioning the beautiful girl, I don't fid this a rediculous stretch.

3. I think SpyreX made the point about scum not necessarily wanting to fulfill a townie's mission and give him a bonus. Granted, that's assuming SpyreX isn't scum, which isn't confirmed, though I don't have strong suspicions of him at the moment. Not a pro-town action either, though, which makes trying to use this to prove either that he's town or scum using it as a support.

4. Agreed that this was pointless and not pro-town. Useless junk and no explaination as to what reactions he might have gained or how he would sort out scummy reactions from townie.

5. He said it was sarcasm, but yes, he was, and no, that was not really acceptable.

Unfortunately, I have to go right now; hopefully tomorrow I can continue my thoughts on the case, etc.

[Plum]

Happy birthday, Sirdanilot, and many happy returns.

I wanted to finish up my analysis of the Porkens case, though I'll preempt it by saying that I think Gorrad is more likely scum; more on that later.

The case against Porkens is looking fairly strong now. Sirdan's most recent quick list case, and my thoughts on it:

1. He was joking around, until he saw a fleur bandwagon growing and decided to hop onto it without any reason.
2. He immediately hopped off after fleur claimed, later said that he somehow 'knew' that fleur had to find someone and also assumed it was a pro-town role.
3. He fulfilled spyrex' role without consulting the town.
4. He pointlessly voted dahill 'to see his reactions'.
5. He admits to be actively lurking.
6. Thinks that fleur not knowing the exact quote tag conventions is a scum tell.
7. Attempts to debunk point 1 with a classic crap logic argument (specifically, a 'too-scummy' argument). Attempts to pull his attacker into his cesspool of WIFOM.
8. OMGUS votes me, the vote is based on bad logic.
9. Opportunistically pushes for a Gorrad hammer.
10. Basically admits most of the above points, by saying 'yeah that could be interpreted as a scum tell' and 'yeah I did that'.

1. Yes to joking around, perhaps excessively. The vote looks fairly opportunistic as well; I don't like the lack of case at all, though Fleur did seem fairly scummy. He says he didn't want to clutter and parrot, if I'm correct; I personally don't like that sort of policy and generally prefer to make a decent case whenever I vote, though I'm sure some are more lax; certainly we've had, say, Gorrad do that at least once.

2. As I've explained, with the flavor Fleur provided, specifically mentioning the beautiful girl, I don't fid this a rediculous stretch.

3. I think SpyreX made the point about scum not necessarily wanting to fulfill a townie's mission and give him a bonus. Granted, that's assuming SpyreX isn't scum, which isn't confirmed, though I don't have strong suspicions of him at the moment. Not a pro-town action either, though, which makes trying to use this to prove either that he's town or scum using it as a support.

4. Agreed that this was pointless and not pro-town. Useless junk and no explaination as to what reactions he might have gained or how he would sort out scummy reactions from townie.

5. He said it was sarcasm, but yes, he was, and no, that was not really acceptable.

Unfortunately, I have to go right now; hopefully tomorrow I can continue my thoughts on the case, etc.

6. Weird and scummy. Don't see any decent logic there at all.

7. I saw this and agree that there was some element of WIFOM in the defense. Still the case itself has some element of WIFOM to it as well. Not extremely helpfull.

8. He retracted it when he realized he had the order of events wrong. Still can't tell if he was trying to do anything really malicious with it.

9. Seems likely that it's so.

10. Like he said, denying he's done these things won't help him or anyone else, really. And many if not most of them can be interpreted as legitimate scumtells, as above. Denying that won't help much either. Basically, Porkens has done some scummy or questionable things, many of which could be interpreted either as scumtells or not. A lot of the points have too much WIFOM room for me to think the case is as strong as the one on Gorrad right now. Didn't have time to preview my last post, so I'm EBWOPing something I caught:

3. I think SpyreX made the point about scum not necessarily wanting to fulfill a townie's mission and give him a bonus. Granted, that's assuming SpyreX isn't scum, which isn't confirmed, though I don't have strong suspicions of him at the moment. Not a pro-town action either, though, which makes trying to use this to prove either that he's town or scum

confusing and less than helpful

.

I'd like to briefly make the case on Gorrad as I see it, i.e. without points that I don't think are valid, though some may:

1. Accused Fleur of using the newbie card early in the game when she had not. Called for more votes on her with no other reasoning than her newbishness; not scumtells, just acting like a newbie. Does anyone else agree that in the absence of other scumtells or using a real newb card as an excuse when one's back is against the wall, newbish play from someone new to the site is a null tell?

2. Unvoted when the bandwagon lost steam after Fleur's claim. Said that the amount of newb play from her was overwhelming enough that he thought she was a legit newbie.

3. Claims he misphrased the bit about the newb card after multiple posts explicitly accusing Fleur of using it.

4. Actively lurked for about four days (without posting).

5. Extensive defense of point four stating that it's his meta. As has been discussed, unhelpful response to unhelpful behavior. Distracting behavior here as well, e.g. talking about Team Asshat and saying not all discussion helps. Not really relevant (not to mention that in theory all discussion should help and unhelpful discussion should prompt questions and slightly hightened suspicion).

6. (Claimed his role, outing his powers to the scum. He seemed to think he was at L-1 at the time, though, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of it). Placed an OMGUS-y vote on Biohazard for 'tunnel-vision', despite Bio having had his vote on Porkens for the past few pages; in addition, Bio's questions and arguments against him seemed valid and relevent, though I speak for myself there. (Quick unvote and vote on me for not unvoting him. He thought he was at L-1 etc., though, so again not sure what to make of it).

7. Call for mass archetype-or-specific claim. Granted I don't see how much info we'd be giving scum, though others seem to, but the basis is an idea that would be a stupid, in my humble opinion, attempt at outguessing the mod.

8. WIFOMy claim about helping the town if he's third-party, something I don't buy. I see survivor or possibly SK if he's third party, nothing that guarantees pro-town play at all, and no good reason to trust any third party character, regardless of powers. Baseless talk about confirmed lack of killing powers (no confirmation there), more baseless argument that flavor wouldn't dictate it. Flavor-based arguments = trying to outguess the mod, generally unhelpful. It's been stated by our gracious mod that missions and mission bonuses may or may not be in line with flavor, and we've already seen SpyreX claim a character who was ambiguous at best (though no concrete confirmation on him yet); to conclude, flavor-based reasoning by Gorrad was unhelpful and unconvincing.

There's my case. Hammer now I won't; I'd like Gorrad to respond to the case and more players to weigh in their thoughts on him/the situation before I do, if possible.

[Plum]

Gravest apologies for having not posted yet today; have been busy.

Shoe target seems to be soft-confirm of her role, which in these circumstances is about what we're going to get. Still, keep an eye out to see that the next person she targets also receives a shoe. As Wolf said, doesn't fully confirm alignment, but then flavor would indicate that it's more likely she's town. If we relied only on flavor, though, we'd probably be in some sort of trouble, so I'll keep my eye on her.

Having said that, SpyreX was a pretty awful choice for night target - either he was Rumpelstiltskin as claimed and therefore not the princess, or he was scum fakeclaiming, and therefore not the princess. Fleur, please try to excercise more thought next time, i.e. if you have reason to believe someone is not the princess (name claim/what-have-you) don't target that person, please.

@ SpyreX: I'm also confused about your call for Gretel to claim - avatar explaination? I didn't notice it, seems a bit random, but then I'm not sure any scummy reason you might have known that - any details??? Like CC, I'm also curious as to what sort of advantage you see the town gaining by Gretel claiming.

[Plum]

I am Gretel.

Let me lay this out. The related missions of Hansel and Gretel were for Gretel to ask the mod/target a player at night to find out if that player was Hansel, who in turn was supposed to breadcrumb. As indeed he did. Seeing the breadcrumb SpyreX quoted made me almost certain that Porkens was Hansel, and from that came some of my reluctance to vote him. Let me preempt this by saying that I know flavor isn't everything, but the fact that the scum were given safeclaims suggests that at least in some or many cases roles will have alignments in line with flavor. My role PM implyed that he was town. My first thought was definitely that he was town. In any case, if I found him I would gain a bonus good for the town and it was implyed that Hansel's mission was to be found by me in this way. I targeted him last night and my mission was accomplished, bonus being that I had permission to talk to him for the rest of the game. Masons, in other words, no? Except that Porkens was NK'd.

But reports of his untimely demise were greatly exaggerated! Not quite, but because of ambiguous wording I asked our gracious mod if I could talk to Porkens after his death. He said that his wording implyed that and that the PM info stood. Hence the subtle change in the communications rule at the top of this page.

The call for a claim was echoed by more than one and after a bit of discussion, Porkens and I decided that I should go ahead and claim. To reiterate: I'm Gretel. I am masons with Porkens, can continue to communicate with him, and am almost certain he is/was town.

On that note, Porkens says that his avatar

was

a hint, for all who are interested (one I'd have never picked up). He also says that he thinks Dahill is 'scummy as hell for suggesting the mafia NK'd' - no-killed, no? Myself I've had slight, mostly gut suspicions on Dahill today because of the hammer situation and the WIFOMing around about whether to dismiss Porkens as town or not. Hope I've given everyone some more information in respect to that. Regardless, I want to do a reread on Dahill to see how much substance is behind my mostly gut suspicions before I vote or such.

FOS: dahill1

Bio - saw your post as I finished this. I'm not sibling partners with anyone, Hansel-Porkens is already dead, I'm not, and town doesn't lose two players if I die - though we do lose communication with Porkens. Hence my claim.

[Plum]

Hmm...fair enough. Your role and actions seem to fit in places. Basically it blows my sibling theory out of the water. However at what point did Sprye X quote Porken's breadcrumb before his death?

No, I meant the one SpyreX quoted in post #591. Sorry if the wording was off. I just wanted to reference the breadcrumb and it was already quoted on the page, just wanted to point to it, as it were.

[Plum]

There may still be a possibility that [Porkens] could have been scum. With this thought in mind, I am apprehensive when it comes to the fact that he is advising you/conversing with you, Plum, for how are we supposed to know if he is truly town, or scum planting seeds of doubt in your discussions to assist any partners he may have?

While I personally am almost certain Porkens is town, I realize that you don't have my role PM, which I feel heavily implies he is town, not do you have private communication with him. Having said that, he is not absolutely confirmed and will acknowledge that and use prudence when it comes to his opinions and advice. If an opinion, assumption, etc. of mine is based on something Porkens pointed out to me, I will treat it like an idea/what-have-you from any other player and explain why I feel it's right and relevant. With thoughts from Porkens on which I don't have a specific opinion at the moment, or in other pertinent situations, I plan to quote or paraphrase him clearly and make equally clear that the thoughts are Porkens', not mine.

Wolf: I see what you're trying to point out, but I feel that Fleur might well have meant to write 'mission bonus' or she in some other way accidentially left formatting from a sentence format she didn't end up using, speaking as someone to whom this has happened not rarely. Nevertheless, I think it was a reasonable thing to have brought up, and I would like to see Fleur comment on this.

[Plum]

Quick post here: Porkens thinks that Bio is scummy, and on rescan, I do, too. 'Biohazard is SUPER scumming it up right now. FoSing SpyreX for being agressinve on Fleur whilest voting for fleur' and 'L.O.L. at Biohazard for trying to make the town lynch their Vig. Scum just outed himself, 100%', quoth Porkens.

Bio: I do still interpret Fleur's 'I'll defend SpyreX' post as newbish play. It's been established that she seems to have majorly misinterpreted what character SpyreX hinted he was for newbish reasons. Personally, I don't see Spy's agressive push for her lynch as extreme bussing. It might have seemed little excessive, but to be perfectly honest I don't think it would have been necessary or advantageous for scum to have done that. Sure, Spy attacked Fleur harshly, but he made a very decent case on her. In any case, in absence of connection not based on clear misinterpretation and a highly subjective interpretation of Spy's attitude towards Fleur, I find this a poorly reasoned case.

Again, I think the shoe confirms Fleur's role which very soft confirms her alignment. If many/most of the roles had counterintuitive alignments, the scum wouldn't need much Pie is Good, though on the other hand Spy has claimed an ambiguous-y character.

Bio: Yeah, you do seem to be trying to off a claimed Vig on weak suspicions. Sure, gaining killing powers in no way confirms alignment, but at the same time your case on him consists of 'he didn't kill Fleur, though he attacked her agressively' - note that multiple players advised him and explicitly asked him

not

to vig Fleur, 'Fleur seems to have wanted to defend him' (see my counter argument above) and 'Spy attacked Fleur too harshly; it looked like bussing' (see above again.

Basically, you're making very weak conjectures and using them to try to off a claimed power role(yes, alignment not confirmed, I know, but on charges too weak to make me vote for him if he had claimed vanilla'.

Vote:Biohazard

[Plum]

So you are 3rd party aligned Spyrex?

I thought he meant he holds his own counsel on whom to use his vig-kill on, though he does take into account what the town says.

Unvote:Bio

It wasn't so much the weak case, but the weak case connecting someone who seemed to have confirmed her role to someone who claimed a pro-town powerrole with nothing yet pointing to the contrary. The point about balance in the setup is decent and noted. You dropped the case, though, so my suspicions are lessened.

On Dahill - I agree that most of those you haven't named are

likely

town. This doesn't mean confirmed town, but even if it did, suspecting the three left through process of elimination is unhelpful-ish. There's not reason to think, from my point of view, that you're scum too, so you'd be better off making a case on one of your suspects than telling us you've come to the conclusion by process of elimination.

[Plum]

On Dahill - I agree that most of those you haven't named are

likely

town. This doesn't mean confirmed town, but even if it did, suspecting the three left through process of elimination is unhelpful-ish. There's not reason to think, from my point of view, that you're scum too, so you'd be better off making a case on one of your suspects than telling us you've come to the conclusion by process of elimination.

of course, you have no reason to see from my POV. but let me just say that i've breadcrumbed the shit out of my role and leave it at that.

That's nice, I suppose. To be honest, I'm pretty sure I'm awful at reading breadcrumbs, which was why I was so glad that Porkens made his clear and in-your-face. Nevertheless, after a quick skim of your posts, I do have a guess, which I suppose is probable enough that I see where you're coming from. Not nearly

confirmed

on you, yet though. I want to do a reread of Wolf's posts later today, have some gut suspicions I want to check there.

[Plum]

Hey, sorry that I haven't posted in a bit, am getting to work. So. Firstly, Porkens says that Bio's not done anything to convince him that he's not a good lynch for today. Personally, at this point I'm wavering around neutral on Bio.

On the CC situation(s): While I find Dahill's process-of-elimination scumhunting not the most helpful thing for the town, with lack of alignment flip on death we're working on a whole lot less information than otherwise, and until he starts voting and pushing for the lynch of those he's mentioned with nothing but process of elimination to back it up, I don't find it too much of a tell any way.

So I find CC's vote on him somewhat suspect or potentially scummy. On the other hand, I don't agree with SpyreX that he's trying to force a connection with Wolf and Kloud; he's fitting his concern to Dahill's terms. I agree with CC that the vote was OMGUS-y and not based on a very good case as I stated above; his backtracking or whatever you'd like to call it regarding his vote and case I see as a nulltell right now, but the actual case and vote still look potentially scummy to me.

Something else to consider:

The point that Spyrex actually got the shoe though in a way proves that she was telling the truth about her role/ability.

vote: Fleur

my case on her has been stated earlier, as have cases by many other people.

Here's something to consider: you seem to think she's telling the truth about her role, the Prince. What makes you think that

despite this

she's scum?

Both Dahill and CC seem a bit eager to claim. Hmmm?

FOS:CC

[Plum]

Fleur: post 650, top of the page is a sum up of my case on you. I also support the multiple other cases that were made on you day one and today.

So you think that despite Fleur's roleclaim and near-confirmation of the role, she's scum-aligned. Explain your thought process there, please. Blow by blow, if necessary.

[Plum]

Ok,

Vote:dahill1

for elimination process
when other users are trying to focus on the scummiest persons, you come up with these weird process of elimination, which basically is voting for people that are lurking or nobody sees as particulary scummy.why not think that there actually is a reason for them not being considered scummy? of course, it is a good point to make to draw our attention to players we might have ignored lately, but elimination process is not just enough for me.

I've already pointed out that Dahill's suggestions, while not the most helpful things I've ever seen, did not culminate in votes and, to quote the post that sparked this whole discussion:

that being said, i do think spyre is town at the moment and if i had to pick scum right now i'd probably say coheedcambria, kloud, wolframnhart. (this is assuming there are 3 scum)

These seem to be suggestions. If Dahill were voting on that alone, I don't think I'd be so accepting. But he notes CC's weird interraction regarding the 'are you third part, SpyreX?' thing, and while I don't see that as much of a scumtell personally, I realize that it may be close enough to a matter of taste that I can deal with that, and if he uses a fairly logical deduction of who's more likely to be scum in his opinion to back that point up, I can deal.

SpyreX is right. We have to press forward and get stuff moving, stop letting things go stagnant.

To that end:

Vote: CoheedCambria

. See my post #671 for details. To summarize: Voted Dahill for the nulltell-ish process-of-elimination speculation, which was OMGUS-esque and not based on a good case, votes Fleur despite believing her roleclaim, for which I'd still like an explaination.

[Plum]

Explanation: I posted why I'm voting Fleur in previous posts. To sum up the role claim thing, I beleive she has a shoe, because that was confirmed by Spyrex, but her being the prince could IMO be real or fake, and even if its real she could still be scum. Her actions today (choice to give shoe to spyrex etc.) and her actions yesterday(previous post/all day 1) just scream scum at me.

I realized my vote on Dahill was OMGUS-esque after the fact, see the unvote.

So the scum has to find her partner through shoe-targeting? Semms unlikely, as someone said. We've already had a case of balance/discussion of what's unlikely in roles and missions regarding SpyreX's Vig powers; furthermore, I feel the Pie Is Good rules imply that in most cases scum would want to use their safeclaim. So I find the vote suspect. Fleur's play has been bad, but with near confirmation of her role, which I, as stated above, see as soft-confirm on alignment etc., I feel that most of her actions are more likely to be those of newb-town than newb-scum.

[Plum]

Plum, do you suspect anyone else in this game beside me this point?

The problem here is that I don't have really strong suspicions of

anyone

at this point. The no-reveal for either alignment or role on death sort of sucked a lot of the life out of today's scumhunting. Further, it looks like two players are waiting for replacememnt. But I have minor suspicions of Wolf, for example, didn't like the way he didn't cmment on Gorrad's claim either way and let the rest of the town do what it would. Not even an 'I'm not sure what to think of this'.

To reiterate what some have been saying, todays going kind of slowly and, again, the no-reveal is making scumhunting like wading through jello; the thing is, we have to do it anyway. Right now, I'm most inclined to lynch CC. I'd like to get the replacements we need and read through and tell us what they see. After that . . . hey

mod, do we have a deadline?

[Plum]

Porkens and I have had a bit of discussion. It's recently come to our attention that one of the two of myself and Porkens was targeted in such a way that we believe the targeter is semi-confirmed town/semi-confirmed scum. So we'd like everyone to claim along the lines of either 'last night, I in some form knowingly targeted Porkens or Plum (specify whom)' or 'I did not knowingly target Porkens or Plum last night'. Please do not claim anything else, including powers; that would be neither desirable nor beneficial for the town at this point. I am being somewhat ambiguous here to attempt to prevent scum taking advantage of this or preventing us from getting correct information here. When everyone has claimed, there should be some substantial, town-beneficial material to discuss.

[Plum]

Hi everyone. Starting to read now.

Unvote

Hi! MafiaSSK, great to see you as well, though I would like to see what you have to say to Dahill's questions. I'm sorry if I've been lurking, will attempt to be more active. Also specifically want to know why you're so enthusiastic about the cases Bio made Day 2. I personally recall not having been enamoured of his case on SpyreX, off the top of my head.

[Plum]

The player that made it had tunnelvision so most of the points are nulled.

My reason for voting CC is that he's the scummiest. True,Fleur is pretty scummy but that could just be newbishness.

Qualify opinion of Porkens case. Tunnel vision on part of player making a case =/= invalid case, as Dahill has said. The case was fairly decent, in my opinion. I'd probably have supported it if not for seeing Porkens' breadcrumb, etc; in fact, when I felt obliged to address the case I had to acknowledge some good points on the part of the not-entirely-tunnelvisioned Sirdan. Otherwise I think there's an outside chance you're scum trying to earn some easy town points by denouncing a case on a player now seen, generally, as likely to have been town. Minor minor scumtell, maybe.

I don't too much love your reason for your vote on CC, but then I also don't have a strong scum read on any player, so a moderate one regarding his poor cases and votes on Dahill and Fleur was enough for me. Though on brief reread I see an instance of agreement 'with most other people here' that SpyreX vig = town. He was also the fifth to believe my claim, though I didn't see anyone who didn't, so I don't think that particular bit of info is too relevent. If you could quote some more egregious instances?

[Plum]

@Plum: Are you able to explain the reasoning for asking your question yet? (pertaining to yourself/porken's last night)

No - I'd like MafiaSSK to confirm that the mod hasn't decided to give him information that could answer it; same with Bio or Bio's replacement. Once everyone has answered with either a yes, no, or 'the mod won't let me know' I'll be able to give something of an explaination.

Chazworthington - about you're 'assume we're in LYLO' thing - I was thinking about that last night. Assuming three scum, we might well be at a 3:5 scum/town ratio. Assuming a mislynch, it would be 3:4 Night 2, and by then we'd be relying on Spy's vig kill to hit scum in order to stay in the game.

I'd also just like to bring out another point on Fleur. I developled the case on dahill using POE as the main point. I got told that this was a bad case, and in hindsight also realized this, and unvoted. The Fleur goes and uses the exact same case and nothing is said. Just thought I should mention that.

I don't like it either. You're right, I should have mentioned that. At the same time, I believe Fleur's claim and think it's likely enough (i.e. very likely) that it's a town-aligned role; hence a fair amount of my reluctance to vote her.

[Plum]

Greetings.

I will start with an

unvote

. Give me a day or 2 to catch up. I know we are deadlined, so this will be a priority. Anybody with questions for Bio #1 - if you could please link any posts (or just give post numbers) to outstanding questions, I will try to answer them.

I specifically replaced in so you could still say 'bio'

Sweet .

Outstanding question for all town members from me, being: Did you knowingly target Porkens or Plum last night? If the mod won't provde you with that info about your predecessor, please say so.

[Plum]

Does anybody think scum safe claims can have safe actions (ie - giving a shoe to someone). fluer being oblivious and reckless with her shoe-giving. then she claims a bonus in 600 when we know the shoe didn't fit?

I don't know if bio#1 got a response when targeting plum, but I will PM the mod now. This might give some insight.

Actually, I think it's possible

you

may have an action in line (enough) with both your role and your safeclaim.

So last night I got targeted with apples, and a week or two ago I mentioned this to Porkens, who thought it might be information with some value. My though was that being targeted specifically with apples might indicate evil stepmother trying to poison a/the princess as the mission. Therefore we thought the person who targeted me had a fair probability of being scum, wanted to test it out, etc. Your explaination isn't unconvincing, per se, and I lack something of the semi-surety I had of the apple-targeter's alignment now. Basically, I want to think about this, see what Porkens has to say.

[Plum]

With that said, maybe both a town player and a scum player are looking for the same person - fluer as prince looking for princess and evil stepmother looking for princess as you suggested.

That's along the lines of my musings about now, actually. The problem there is that I'd assume

you

to be evil stepmother and not unlikely scum.

Mod edit
Official Votecount:
CoheedCambria09 (3): SpyreX, Plum, MafiaSSK
fleurdelys (1): CoheedCambria09
dahill1 (1): fleurdelys

Not voting (3): bionicchop2, chazworthington, dahill1

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

[Plum]

Sorry for the bits and pieces. Don't have time to focus on one thing before I head back to work and wasn't planning on making a case yet. Just pointing out some things I find as I read.

vote Gorrad
I have to agree with dahill1 here. I really didn't find gorrad scummy, but his recent posting hasn't helped him much in my mind and his stance of "i know what i am doing" when asked about how his "i am important" was different from Fleurs.

Here is an example of what I was mentioning about wolf. His vote is in the same post where he says he wasn't finding a player scummy.

I honestly didn't much like Wolf's play with the Gorrad lynch either - besides this, he didn't comment on the claim while keeping his vote on Gorrad and lurked/didn't post through the lynch.

I think with the number of partnered roles, roles that might hint at scum names (

yes

, I do remember Pie Is Good, of course), not to mention the number of people who have already claimed their rolenames, it might be a decent idea to do a mass nameclaim. Thoughts/objections?

[Plum]

Unvote

. I like the case on Wolf/Chaz better now. What I most dislike is his play around the Gorrad wagon and lynch, as I've mentioned before, and Bio's larger, more comprehensive case makes other good points as well. SSK, if you're around, we need a claim. If not, I plan to vote Chaz (this subject to change if I have some sort of unexpected epiphany, etc.). Also - if CC is telling the truth

and

we manage to lynch the Wolf we'll finally have some sort of flip on someone, which would be nice . . .

Mod edit
Official Votecount:
CoheedCambria09 (2): SpyreX, MafiaSSK
dahill1 (2): fleurdelys, chazworthington
chazworthington (3): bionicchop2, CoheedCambria09, dahill1

Not voting (1): Plum

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

[Plum]

I think the vote is 3-3 right now.

mod

vote count please.

Who is online? I think we have 1 hour left. I don't like SSk disappearing at deadline like this.

Plum - how do you know we would get a flip on someone if we lynched a wolf?

Hm. I belive CC said he was Mother Goat and his mission is to lynch the Wolf; this seems to imply the Wolf is scum. Hence, if we lynch someone and CC get's a mission accpomplished PM, we can conclude that the lynched player was scum. Unless I mised something.

Of course, the above scenario is assuming we belive CC.

I'm also hoping for a vote count. If it's at 3-3 . . . as I said, I'm planning to vote Chaz, assuming no sudden epiphanies or information from an SSK claim which would make me decide that he's not the best lynch today. Deadline hits in a little under an hour as of this post, I think.

[Plum]

I'm online now. I also dont like how MSSK hasnt been around.

@Bio- Plum is correct in what he is saying bio

@Plum- It would be nice if you could vote chaz so that I dont get deadline lynched. (I also think the vote count is 3-3, thats why I'm asking this of you)

I'm a girl .

Vote: Chazworthington

. I checked the rules and found that a tie would mean no-lynch. Personally, I'd prefer a Chaz lynch over no-lynch or a CC lynch now. Planned to wait a bit more for SSK to claim before I voted, but if necessary I can certainly unvote before deadline.

[Plum]

That looks like a hammer to me.

[Plum]

A question for Fleur and Dahill: What bonus did you get? Also, seperately: how confident are you that the other is town?

[Plum]

Did a brief reread; sorry for not having posted in a bit:

Spy's catch of Chaz's vote reasoning illogic is excellent. Very plausible CC - Chaz link there.

CC - did you have to get the Wolf

lynched

or

killed in any way

to fulfill your mission? Clarify.

Porkens' thoughts, paraphrased (as the rules disallow quoting) - this was sent before CC's bonus claim, just after SpyreX's post at the top of this page):

Dahill and Fleur's claimed powers don't make much sense.

Dahill's power, especially, seems to give him a free pass to vote/unvote/hammer as he pleases --super duper scumtastic

CC's 'claim' is retarded: "I can't claim because there are still some mafia left" So what? Will he only claim after there are no mafia left?

Hang CC, SpyreX should shoot dahill.

But CC claims to have 1-shot NK immunity, and I somehow doubt he's lying about that part . . . if we go no-lynch today . . . I advocate getting CC hanged. I think I prefer today, but I could deal withgiving SpyreX a shot at mafia first.

Then again, this is assuming we're not in 3:2 LyLo; if we are, we 're screwed with that plan. Ironically, that plan was thought up and approved first and heavily by CC and Dahill, the two I find most suspicious (and yes, there is some amount of gut involved with that, so shoot me).

[Plum]

I'm here! Basically, I need CC to make the clarification I asked of him in my previous post before I vote. I probaly will end up voting CC, but I really want to be able to sort out who CC's Wolf was, if possible. Hesitant on the vote because it's only three to lynch, and he's already got one; just playing it a bit slowly. Hope he answers soon.

[Plum]

This game keeps crawking to a standstill. I'm fine with voting CC and, if that doesn't finish off the scum, letting SpyreX take his shot (my vote for the Vig kill is with Dahill, as I believe I mentioned, but in the end it'll be Spy's call). To be honest, I don't really see Fleur or Spy as very plausible scum compared to Dahill and CC. As has been said. And mostly, I think this is about where we're going to get today. Correct me if I'm wrong, etc. If you have something to say before stuff happens, get up and say it, maybe?

Vote: CC

[Plum]

hi just got back from vacation
i'm ready to hammer when everyone else is
obviously i don't endorse me getting vigged since i'm going to receive some sort of bonus after i hammer that could help us, but it's up to Spyre

Hopefully you won't get a bonus because Town will have won and the game will be over . But assuming we're in three-on-two LyLo and CC is scum it'll be 3:1 going into night, 2:1 with the scumkill, and then I suppose SpyreX could afford to leave off his Vig kill and let you claim your bonus, assuming you survive the night, and then let it some down between whichever two of [Myself, Fleur, Dahill] are alive and SpyreX. But I wouldn't blame Spy for shooting tonight if we have a tonight either. I'll leave the desicion to him, I suppose.

[Plum]

YES! Finally a win! It seems that I haven't yet won with alignments and roles flipping on death . 1/2 as Town. I'm making a comeback!

I had a feeling the PR was faked ... AWESOME SpyreX. It's hysterical that you managed to make the scum belive you were a bomb of some sort.

I think that perhaps the Mafia was too hung up on completing their missions vs. making the optimal kill. They could've tried to get Porkens hung (although I'd have made that a bit difficult ) Day 2 if they hadn't been so hung up on compleing a mission, or at the very least NK'd me (though Bio also looked fairly Townie, meh).

Also, Mod, the (AWESOME) Porkens masonry was a really fun mechanic (note to self:...).