Mini 690 - Grimmmafia (Game over, the flavor returns...)

[dahill1]

/confirm

[dahill1]

vote fleur

i think it's pretty obvious to everyone what Spyre's mission is, but i don't think we should say it right away. instead, let's just play normally and then if we believe spyre is pro-town we can say it.

[dahill1]

For the record, I definitely think he's telling the truth about his role, as it would be really stupid to fakeclaim that as well as the mission as scum.

[dahill1]

/agrees with biohazard
fleur most likely isn't playing the newbie card and IMO is genuine, but her strange defense of Spyre is noted

[dahill1]

If she's acting the newbie on purpose, it's to be underestimated by the town, so they'll give her slack if she slips up, and so that she can fly under the radar with newbish posts. I've seen it done before, heck, I've done it before. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that no one goes into a mafia game unprepared- if Fleur is confident enough to join a mini-theme before a newbie game, I'm not cutting her any slack.

when i first joined i replaced into a few large games (quite stupidly) and acted quite noobishly as town

[dahill1]

i should not say anything else, however, deeply in my heart i want to defend my stupidity:p
Gorrand, I have actually applied to one of the newbie's game; however, this one has started first and so i'm here.on the other hand, i heard about the game from an obsessed friend so i know SOMETHING.
i thought about my role and what i think spy rex character is, and i thought we should be on one side in terms of the game. however, i was thinking of a completely different character than you guys, so i'm confused as everybody.
hope i'm not going to finish this game so quickly, GORRAD;)

im a little confused by this post..
are saying that you thought spyre was town based on his role in relation to what your role is?
also, spyre's character is pretty straightfoward if you ask me

[dahill1]

ok, that is my last newbie post, promise.
if the person is voted to be eliminated will the rest find out what his/her role was?

lol irony
yes we will

it was about the name that shoudn't be spelled incorrectly three times-that part made me think about him being in a similar position to mine as a characters in game. still, i think we have spelled his name incorrectly quite a few times and nothing has happened-if he's alive still then i have no idea who he was

i don't think anyone has said his name yet, you're probably confused as to what his name actually is..

[dahill1]

I am so sorry Biohazard, but my new tactic is to remain quiet.

...
ok first of all, lurking is

not

a good tactic regardless of alignment, so please don't remain quiet just because you have the most votes.

I think I am confused with what i said, and it makes sense to me.

this sentence is kinda contradictory..

1. From Spyrex rhymes I thought I know his character in grimm tales, and reckoned it was a good character, yes pro-town, and I should defend him

ok now we're getting somewhere..what made you think his character was pro-town?

2. why should i defend him? just because people were saying he shouldn't be trusted so early at this stage- so i thought i would make him stay

so you trusted him just to be contrary?

3. after reading your assumptions of what his character is, i lost my trace and stopped acting enthusiastic about it

what made you act differently when you read our assumptions?

[dahill1]

SpyreX, don't worry about me-i'm the one who talks more then anybody here, so it's bad to judge if shutting up would be a bad idea in my case. it's weird that the players did not think about my role at all. What if my death means that all the town dies?

i am fairly sure that the mod would not include a role in this game in which all the town would die if a player with that role dies

[dahill1]

i don't think spyre's vote was opportunistic as fleur is pretty damn scummy.
i'm thinking she should probably claim now

[dahill1]

What? Should I say what my role is-is that what You mean? I'm afraid I might be killed during the night if I reveal it. or is there a doctor to defend me every single night?

i mean, the mod sent you a role via PM. please claim it (but do not directly quote the mod as this will result in a modkill).

[dahill1]

unvote

so fleur isn't accidentally hammered before she claims

[dahill1]

Dude, she was at L-3

oops didnt see that bio didn't unvote you
oh well, never can be to careful

[dahill1]

first off, i think fleur should claim her mission ASAP for a reason which i will say after she claims it.
next,@ fleur: i still don't see how killing your role makes the scum win..can you elaborate?
@wolf: i'm a guy
@bio: definitely don't think a simple townie would be this desperate to survive. and if she is a power role, she sure hasn't claimed it. also, you have to keep in mind the pre-game scum talk in which a more experienced scum could have given her some tips

[dahill1]

I was told to persuade you instead of not talking, and that was the only argument i could think of

what? who told you to persuade us?

[dahill1]

ah i see..now please claim your mission

[dahill1]

unvote

ok the reason i wanted her to mission claim ASAP was because if she was scum, then she most likely had some kind of anti-town mission. i wanted her to answer right away so she couldn't have time to make up some sort of mission as scum. however, due to her full claim, she is much more believable.
rereading right now, but i agree with the above 2 posts about porkens and gorrad, so i will most likely vote one of them.

[dahill1]

ok that was a pretty quick reread as they didn't have many posts as of yet.
IMO, Porkens has a stronger case against him than Gorrad. Basically, Porkens has flown under the radar with mostly nongame-related posts. and out of the 2 posts that do pertain to the game, he makes a vote on fleur with no reason besides "Lynch the scum". iirc, that was when the wagon on fleur was growing a lot. i'm now starting to think fleur is town most likely, so we should probably analyze that wagon. Gorrad, on the other hand, is usually aggressive and persistent from what i've seen in previous games. this doesn't mean that he can't be scum, but this playstyle is similar to other games where he's been town.

Porkens case > Gorrad case

vote Porkens

[dahill1]

ok that was a pretty quick reread as they didn't have many posts as of yet.
IMO, Porkens has a stronger case against him than Gorrad. Basically, Porkens has flown under the radar with mostly nongame-related posts. and out of the 2 posts that do pertain to the game, he makes a vote on fleur with no reason besides "Lynch the scum". iirc, that was when the wagon on fleur was growing a lot. i'm now starting to think fleur is town most likely, so we should probably analyze that wagon. Gorrad, on the other hand, is usually aggressive and persistent from what i've seen in previous games. this doesn't mean that he can't be scum, but this playstyle is similar to other games where he's been town.

Porkens case > Gorrad case

vote Porkens

? So his playstyle is just lurk throughout discussion and just keep on to the largest bandwagon with just one stubborn reason?

I see the case on Porkens but I'm liking my Gorrad vote until he cares to elaborate on his actions.

yes

[dahill1]

i think it's very likely that they could both be scum, as both cases are strong. it's just atm, i think that out of the two, Porkens is more likely scum than Gorrad. That being said, i would be willing to hammer/vote Gorrad if necessary

[dahill1]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7677

[dahill1]

Okay just skimmed over Gorrad's posts in that game and he's pulling the same thing he did there over here except the person was mafia scum that game. Here's why I don't like meta comparing (60% of the time) In gorrad's case he managed to lynch a scum with the "newbie card callout" and he was town. Doesn't mean this game "he's going to strike it right again" using the same tatic. Roles change and it doesn't mean he neccesarly town because he used the same tatic he used in another game. I find him scummy because he locks onto whatever person with just reason which with Fleur's background is unlikely and ignores whatever anybody had to say about it then out of nowhere after lurking stays on the bandwagon without participating in discussion or stating his reasons for his vote. Hence why I usually don't like meta (don't get me wrong meta can be helpful in seeing how a player acts and compare the gameplay here) but when a person uses the same tactic in both games doesn't show he is town.

don't get me wrong, just because he's acting the same way doesn't mean he can't be scum. as i said in my other post, i think it is likely that he is scum. however, i would rather lynch Porkens because he is exhibiting more classic scum tells. this is kinda hard to explain from my POV because i've played with Gorrad before. yes, the things he is doing are scummy, but they are more consistent with his previous play. i'm not saying he's town at all, just that from my POV, porkens is more likely to be scum. i can definitely see how you would rather have a gorrad lynch, and as i said i will vote him if necessary.

[dahill1]

Porkens, you unvoted fleur after she only claimed the role name, which meant basically nothing. she only gave really a flavor description. why did you unvote her then?

[dahill1]

burmmmm, um, what else are you looking for?

what?

[dahill1]

You are The Prince (town), you know, the son of a king, who appears in most stories in which there’s also a beautiful girl.

this looks like the whole roleclaim to me. What parts do you think are missing?

well..you know...THE MISSION!
her mission was the main reason i believed the claim..
are you telling me you believed fleur just because of the above quote by her?

[dahill1]

I think the mission was obvious. Yeah that's what I'm telling you. That's why I unvoted.

hmm this is getting interesting..so you could tell just from the her role description that her mission was to look for Cinderella and if he did he would become masons with her?

[dahill1]

How was the mission obvious? As a Prince there could be tons of different missions to be given out, it's not like "Oh Prince role, then he MUST be after Cinderella" it could be "Oh hes after rapunzel" or snow white, sleeping beauty etc.

QFT
there is no way he could have just known it was Cinderella

[dahill1]

It said in her claim that the prince was always looking for some girl.

no it didn't it said
"appears in most stories in which there’s also a beautiful girl"
that in no way implies looking for a girl

[dahill1]

what i got from her claim (before the mission claim), was that someone probably has the role name of a beautiful girl (Cinderella, Rapunzel, Sleeping Beauty, etc)
but now after the mission claim, it's obviously Cinderella

[dahill1]

Wow, so what, y'all decided to vote me because I had nothing to contribute for all of one post? Sheesh. I've been swamped the last few days and haven't had much chance to post, and when I did I knew I wouldn't have much time to post so I wanted to voice my aproval of the direction the town was taking.

Also, when I said Fleur was using the newbie card, she WAS. I stand by that.

For now, though, I'm going to

Unvote

.

The amount of completely newbish play from Fleur is overwhelming. When I've seen the newbie card used by scum as a get-out-of-jail-free, it's been to explain an isolated incident- i.e., they get better in the future, it's not the way they act 100% of the time. I'm willing to write off Fleur as very newbish town

. This is supported by the mission- given the above statement that I believe Fleur to be a newb, not acting the newb, I don't think she's capable of fakeclaiming that mission. She also wouldn't have put '(town)' in her claim.

I see some contradiction. Here you say you stand by on your statement that Fleur was pulling a newbie card and then later in the post you state that fleur is a newbie not acting purposely to be a newbie. So in the short amount of time from your last post when you stated that you agree with everybody else and your vote stands you suddenly jump off the wagon when it loses heat and you second guess yourself. Also to add that you stated that your vote stands "even when she claimed her role" So why all of a sudden when the fleur wagon loses momentum do you suddenly find her newbish town? This I find pretty scummy and I'm not satisfied with your "I just wanted to say I agree with everybody else" I understand people in real life are busy but at least wait at a time where you can speak your reasoning and thoughts instead of just posting a short post which contains no substance to back your vote and it's just an easy way to go along with the biggest bandwagon.

^^
Seconding these questions
you go from "Fleur was definitely using the newb card" to "I'm willing to write her off as newb town"

[dahill1]

Why would "The Prince"
somehow convince?

it was the mission that convinced me combined with her role name in relation to the mission. i don't think she could have come up with that by herself

[dahill1]

way to say his name without even consulting with anyone else..

[dahill1]

i actually just realized that Spyre probably is town mainly due to him trying to complete his mission openly. the first post said that mission bonuses are revealed once they're completed, so he would have no reason to do it openly as scum, since we would lynch him if the bonus was anti-town.
however, i can easily see Porkens, (if Spyre is town), saying the word just to gain some town points.

[dahill1]

EBWOP: i kinda rephrased that wrong

"however, i can easily see Porkens, (if Spyre is town), saying the word just to gain some town points." = "i can easily see Porkenscum saying the word to gain some trust from the town for helping them out."

[dahill1]

blah triple post AGAIN
Porkens please post examples of how you thought Spyre was pro-town.

[dahill1]

oh snap a vig
i highly you suggest you do not kill fleur, as i'm sure you are leaning that way atm

[dahill1]

@SpyreX, are you a pro-town vig? (I'm not to sure if there are different kinds)

@Everybody: What are your feelings towards SpyreX now that we know his full role?

Personally I'm passive about it. Once I figure out my first question it will help me make up my mind better. If he turns out to be pro-town I feel it will help us out alot having two kills on our side instead of just one (the lynch)

coheed...he's obvious going to say a pro-town vig..
what would he say, "No, I'm a scum vig"?

[dahill1]

I also don't get your first question coheed, do you expect him to say no?

This is too answer dahill's question too.

But Spyrex already answered it for me. I was wondering if he was third party aligned and won by himself. But he said that he was town, so for now I'm going to have to trust him (until he proves otherwise)

"I kill people at night"
"Are you a mafia or SK?"
"No"
"Ok i trust you"

[dahill1]

"I kill people at night"
"Are you a mafia or SK?"
"No"
"Ok i trust you"

Its off the path,
but it made me laugh.

Although I'm no bust,
The role isn't trust.

not saying i think you're scum necessarily
but just pointing out coheed's blind trust of you just because you said you were pro-town

[dahill1]

i actually just realized that Spyre probably is town mainly due to him trying to complete his mission openly. the first post said that mission bonuses are revealed once they're completed, so he would have no reason to do it openly as scum, since we would lynch him if the bonus was anti-town.
however, i can easily see Porkens, (if Spyre is town), saying the word just to gain some town points.

I disagree with this statement and it's WIFOM. The same thing could easily be applied if he was scum with two sides leading "He's town and wouldn't do that as scum" or "he's scum and trying to trick us as town" which could be debated but wouldn't get us anywhere. Also we have no idea wheter or not his bonus is either town or anti-town

that previous statement by me was made before the mod cleared up the questions concerning bonuses. i was under the assumption that once a bonus is completed, it is announced so in the thread, and the player is PMed the bonus. however, we later learned this wasn't true so you can just ignore that past post by me

When did he call you stupid? And the fact about Porkens is before his unvote of you with no explanation he never had a reason to explain himself or need any defense. He has defended his actions thus so far though.

@Dahall1
What is the difference between Co's trust in Spyrex because he said he was pro-town, and the trust Fleur got by saying she was a Prince(town) role?

Fleur claimed a specific role and mission which was believable to me. once it was established that spyre was a vig, all he said was "i'm pro-town". again, not saying i think he's scum necessarily, but you shouldn't trust him for not admitting to being scum

[dahill1]

Oh im not completely trusting SpyreX either, i believe i stated that before. I still just don't see much of a difference between what Fleur did and what SpyreX has done. Fleur claimed a specific role and mission to make her seem town and get votes off of her, and SpyreX just came out and said "i'm pro-town", the result was the same even if the methods were different.

i guess it's different for everyone
but fleur's was convincing to me

[dahill1]

sorry hadn't gotten the time to post lately
i'm gonna assume porken's vote is OMGUS unless he explains it
honestly, i know this has been the situation pretty much all game, but i find myself completely agreeing with biohazard again. porken's argument is WIFOM although he did make a good point about coheed. coheed, thoughts? bigger post (hopefully) coming tonight

[dahill1]

blah school's kicking my ass
my thoughts still haven't really changed
porkens still hasn't really done anything to convince me to change my vote, and i still think fleur is town

[dahill1]

Finding someone to be protown is far from assuming them to be town.

this whole paragraph is just ..i can't even imagine how you could attempt to explain this

Yes, I think it's more likely that he's town then scum, but that doesn't mean I'm assuming a thing.

what is this supposed to mean? statistically he's more likely to be town? because if it was any other scenario then yes, it would be an assumption on your part.

I just put a vote out there on Dahil1 do see what your reactions would be.

boy, do i love when people do this
just from my experience, the only people that tend to say that are scum (and no i can't cite any specific games because i don't remember the exact ones). some questions porkens, what kind of reactions did you expect to receive? what would you do if you received said reactions? any reason you chose me, or was it random?

unvote

Big FoS: Gorrad

probably will turn into a vote but i'm waiting until i see the vote count first. the vote is mainly due to his contradiction. specifically,

Yes, I think it's more likely that he's town then scum, but that doesn't mean I'm assuming a thing.

and

Finding someone to be protown is far from assuming them to be town.

. also, as porkens said, his main defense just being "it's my meta!". as much as i dislike that porkens is on this wagon, the case is strong. i still suspect some degree of bussing is possibly occuring though.

[dahill1]

Did anybody catch this? After not even responding to the post I directed at him he unvotes his other vote on Dahill1 saying it was for reactions then jumps onto the Gorrad bandwagon when suspicion gets turned on Gorrad. Yeah I am defiantly liking my vote right now.

both cases are very strong
as i said before, i highly suspect that both of them could be scum

[dahill1]

Oh, and for the scum that may or may not be pressing me- my role is probably the coolest one I've seen in a long time. However, it has an unexpected upside- if I die, it does hurt town, but it hurts scum almost as much. It's one of those everyone loses scenarios (looses the scenario, not the game or anything).

this is sounding to me a lot like Fleur's "I am valuable to scum and to town" post she did.

same thought popped into my mind

[dahill1]

porkens, your answers to the questions i asked you?

[dahill1]

vote Gorrad

just realized i wasn't voting for him. his case is still pretty much the same but that softclaim is p much the exact same as fleur's (when i thought she was scum). i can't see the difference at all between finding that someone is pro-town using logic and assuming that they are pro-town. also his list is almost completely different from mine. right now from in order from town to scum, i would say:
Biohazard
sirdanilot
SpyreX
Plum
wolframnhart
fleur
kloud
coheed
Porkens
Gorrad

[dahill1]

@dahill: why do you find me as one of the most scummy people in the game (just curious)

I'd like to see a vote count soon because those two quick votes on Gorrad put him at L-2 I believe.

mainly by process of elimination
i don't think you're

that

scummy. you're mainly only down there for that one situation with Spyre about trusting him, which isn't incredibly big, but it's something

[dahill1]

if that was indeed the hammer, then SpyreX please DO NOT kill fleur tonight.

[dahill1]

alright regarding Gorrad's claim: from all of the games i have played/read, it has been more times that scum have had this type of role than town. the only town version of this role i can think of was DGB in iPick. the reason it is usually scum that get this role is because they can manipulate the night scene to make it seem like a certain character made the kill. for example, if a player claimed "The Dragon", the scum could write something like "Player X - scorched to death Night 1". also, Spyre made a good point about the Grimm brothers being the narrator. furthermore, this seems like too powerful of an enabler role to even exist. the game goes into no-reveal after one death? sirdanilot makes another good point about the narrator being a third-party, which could translate into neutral in the game. all that being said, my vote stays.

Porkens, please reply to #455, or at least the part that's directed at you.

The only question directed towards me is "what do you mean by chainsaw defense." I suggest you look it up in the wiki and re-read your own posts that include SpyreX. Prohint: You've attacked SpyreX for A) attacking fleur and B) defending me.

Adress your list? Ok.

Porkens:
1. He was joking around, until he saw a fleur bandwagon growing and decided to hop onto it without any reason.
2. He immediately hopped off after fleur claimed, later said that he somehow 'knew' that fleur had to find someone and also assumed it was a pro-town role.

- That's not why I did what I did. I've explained this. You don't like my explanation, I don't care.

3. He fulfilled spyrex' role without consulting the town.

Sure did.

4. He pointlessly voted dahill 'to see his reactions'.

yep

5. He admits to be actively lurking.

sarcasm, but fine.

6. Thinks that fleur not knowing the exact quote tag conventions is a scum tell.

Again, not what I said, twice, but ok.

7. Attempts to debunk point 1 with a classic crap logic argument (specifically, a 'too-scummy' argument). Attempts to pull his attacker into his cesspool of WIFOM.

You don't what I said about that, and that's fine, but it stands.

8. OMGUS votes me, the vote is based on bad logic.

True, I retracted it.

That should sum it up.


Now,

Read the rest of the post before you comment on it.

So if I read your post more carefuly the comment would explaine itself? But wait...

I'll take the opportunity to further explain myself. The claimed role affects the game as a whole, and flavor wise, a narrator is typically someone who doesn't participate in the story, hence a third party role.

Now you re-explaine it. Well, you've just slipped into needless personal insults. And on that note; we have had our lasts words.

on to porkens...this whole post is not helping you at all. if anything it's raising my suspicions for just basically saying "yeah i OMGUSd, went ahead and achieved the mission with no consultation, voted dahill for no real reason...so?"

[dahill1]

on to porkens...this whole post is not helping you at all. if anything it's raising my suspicions for just basically saying "yeah i OMGUSd, went ahead and achieved the mission with no consultation, voted dahill for no real reason...so?"

I'm not saying that those actions (especially the ones you bring up again here) couldn't be interpreted as scummy.

I was asked to respond to each point, so I did.

I think one or two of the points, as they are written on the list, are up for interpretation. The majority, however, are just true.

sirdansilot is saying that the things on this list indicate that I am scum. He is entitled to his interpretation, as are we all.

I'm not going to deny those actions or change my story on why I took them. If those actions, or my reasoning behind them, are 'crap' or look scummy to some people; that's just how it is.

So, to summarize, I'm not trying to say those actions couldn't make me look scummy. I feel like I've addressed (but not really argued) the points against me but I'm not saying "yeah, so what?!"

that's exactly my point
you're just straight up admitting to doing all of those things, which were scummy

[dahill1]

actually

unvote

as i don't want anyone hammering him irrationally
i do think gorrad should mission claim

[dahill1]

Being abrasive,
is not evasive.

I'm pretty certain,
Porkens is no dark curtain.

what do you think about the other parts of his case besides being abrasive?

[dahill1]

First of all, I AM town alligned. But consider- it has already agreed that I cannot kill. I see no plausable way for anyone to think I'm jester, lyncher, or cult. That leaves, unless I'm very mistaken, survivor. In which case I help the town not only because if I don't my neck is on the line, but also because I'm generally a nice guy, and a town victory makes more people happy.

psst..you forgot SK!
it has definitely NOT been agreed that you cannot kill. when did someone say that?

[dahill1]

First of all, I AM town alligned. But consider- it has already agreed that I cannot kill. I see no plausable way for anyone to think I'm jester, lyncher, or cult. That leaves, unless I'm very mistaken, survivor. In which case I help the town not only because if I don't my neck is on the line, but also because I'm generally a nice guy, and a town victory makes more people happy.

psst..you forgot SK!
it has definitely NOT been agreed that you cannot kill. when did someone say that?

494. I've also made several cases on why it would make no sense whatsoever for a narrator to have a killing role which no one has refuted.

that's not everyone agreeing, that's one person saying he doesn't think you're an SK. also you definitely could be an SK. first, you could be fakeclaiming. furthermore, there are tons of flavor that could fit the narrator as the SK. off the top of my head: You are tired of telling the same stories over and over again, so you decide to kill off the characters so you can stop.

[dahill1]

Either way a lynch between Gorrad and Porkens would be very informative day 1.

Could you be a little more specific? For the sake of argument; Assume I'm vanilla town (or vanilla scum, if you like that better), and elaborate on what information you would get from my death.

pardon me for answering the question for him
and correct me if i'm wrong bio, but i'm pretty sure he meant things like who was against your lynch or strongly pushing for your lynch, etc.
things like that

[dahill1]

Gorrad, i see your point about confirming your role
that still doesn't confirm you as pro-town

right now, i am confident that at least one if not both of {Porkens, Gorrad} is scum so i will hammer either if we get too close to deadline

[dahill1]

i would like to hammer please if no one else has any objections
i'll probably hammer tonight unless someone gives any outstanding reason not to

[dahill1]

a single role that causes the game to go into no-reveal on his death isn't that logical, tbh

anyways, i don't see any reason why i shouldn't

vote gorrad

Mod edit
Official Votecount:
Gorrad (6): CoheedCambria09, wolframnhart, SpyreX, sirdanilot, Porkens, dahill1
Porkens (3): kloud1516, Biohazard, fleurdelys

Not voting (2): Plum, Gorrad

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

[dahill1]

apologies to gorrad if you're reading this
i second spyre claiming his kill

[dahill1]

2nding bio's questions
and that fleur should target claim
i am very surprised by the porkens kill, as i thought he was scum
i'm prob gonna reread and post my thoughts later

[dahill1]

The games are through.
I was targeted with a shoe.

Its easy to admit,
that it didn't fit.

However when asked,
fleur didn't admit to the task.

So now I surmise,
that her role was lies.

Vote: Fleur

And now to test my mettle,
I'm asking for Gretel.

Her brother is torqued,
For he was obviously pork.

I'm willing to assume,
that she is no loon.

So despite our new troubles,
with her outed town doubles.

sorry but i had a little trouble understanding this post
are you saying you were RB'd?

[dahill1]

although i agree that Spyre was a bad choice to target for fleur, i do think this somewhat confirms her role. Spyre, you said you received a shoe, correct? that means she indeed is the prince.
also as bio said, fleur don't pick randomly. you should reread the thread and pick who makes the most sense.

[dahill1]

I will quip
In a game with no flip.

Every bit we can get
Can help us not get bit.

I'm going to assume that the pair,
is fair and square.

Thus confirming her narrows,
who we look for in barrows.

I think I understand what you mean now. By finding out who gretel is, then that will narrow the possibilites of who could be scum in the game.

not necessarily.
first off, we shouldn't automatically dismiss Porkens as town just because he was nightkilled not by Spyre. I admit, it's unlikely, but if Porkens wasn't so scummy I probably would've let this go. Also, even if Porkens was town and Hansel, that doesn't mean Gretel is necessarily in the game or if she is, a town role. I could easily see the mod putting in a Hansel role, and then giving scum a Gretel fakeclaim.

[dahill1]

I dont find it dumb,
to think Gretel could be scum.

The idea that pork isn't town,
definitely makes me frown.

Answer me this dahill,
If he's scum who did they kill?

a number of possibilities pop to mind such as possible doc protect, SK killed Porkens, the mafia no-killed for some reason, the mafia didn't have a kill for some reason, you're the mafia, etc. Most of them degenerate into NK WIFOM. I agree that it is most likely that Porkens was town, but I'm just bothered by the fact that he was pretty scummy.

[dahill1]

I am Gretel.

Let me lay this out. The related missions of Hansel and Gretel were for Gretel to ask the mod/target a player at night to find out if that player was Hansel, who in turn was supposed to breadcrumb. As indeed he did. Seeing the breadcrumb SpyreX quoted made me almost certain that Porkens was Hansel, and from that came some of my reluctance to vote him. Let me preempt this by saying that I know flavor isn't everything, but the fact that the scum were given safeclaims suggests that at least in some or many cases roles will have alignments in line with flavor. My role PM implyed that he was town. My first thought was definitely that he was town. In any case, if I found him I would gain a bonus good for the town and it was implyed that Hansel's mission was to be found by me in this way. I targeted him last night and my mission was accomplished, bonus being that I had permission to talk to him for the rest of the game. Masons, in other words, no? Except that Porkens was NK'd.

But reports of his untimely demise were greatly exaggerated! Not quite, but because of ambiguous wording I asked our gracious mod if I could talk to Porkens after his death. He said that his wording implyed that and that the PM info stood. Hence the subtle change in the communications rule at the top of this page.

The call for a claim was echoed by more than one and after a bit of discussion, Porkens and I decided that I should go ahead and claim. To reiterate: I'm Gretel. I am masons with Porkens, can continue to communicate with him, and am almost certain he is/was town.

On that note, Porkens says that his avatar

was

a hint, for all who are interested (one I'd have never picked up). He also says that he thinks Dahill is 'scummy as hell for suggesting the mafia NK'd' - no-killed, no? Myself I've had slight, mostly gut suspicions on Dahill today because of the hammer situation and the WIFOMing around about whether to dismiss Porkens as town or not. Hope I've given everyone some more information in respect to that. Regardless, I want to do a reread on Dahill to see how much substance is behind my mostly gut suspicions before I vote or such.

FOS: dahill1

Bio - saw your post as I finished this. I'm not sibling partners with anyone, Hansel-Porkens is already dead, I'm not, and town doesn't lose two players if I die - though we do lose communication with Porkens. Hence my claim.

first off, talking after death=awesome mechanic
next, i 100% believe your claim right now and that combined with your previous actions puts you on my most likely town right now.
thirdly, i believe Porkens was referring to this post

a number of possibilities pop to mind such as possible doc protect, SK killed Porkens, the mafia no-killed for some reason, the mafia didn't have a kill for some reason, you're the mafia, etc. Most of them degenerate into NK WIFOM. I agree that it is most likely that Porkens was town, but I'm just bothered by the fact that he was pretty scummy.

i merely stated the no kill as a possibility, as i definitely don't think that's what happened, but there is always the chance that it did. as i said, i do think porkens was most likely town because he was nightkilled, and this claim pretty much strengthens my beliefs. as for the "hammer situation", i had already stated a few times that i was hammering as we had all come to the consensus that Gorrad was probably scum. i asked if anyone had any points of discussion they wanted to make and no one responded, so later that night i hammered. as elias_the_thief's sig says, a well reasoned hammer=/=scummy.

[dahill1]

Yes, at this stage I do have only one mission- after succeding I get a bonus mission.
You don't have to believe me, but I was honestly randomly checking a person. Why was it Spyrex? Because he was the first one I could think of. Sorry guys, but I don't see anyone who is acting like a princess, so my choice was either random check or not checking at all.

well the person isn't going to just be obvious about it and act like a princess. that's why people breadcrumb like porkens did

[dahill1]

sorry was v/la friday and saturday
i don't really see the case on biohazard..
also, lots of people have been saying "scum vigilante" aka a scum with 2 kills..but it could easily be just regular scum pretending to be a vigilante..
that being said, i do think spyre is town at the moment and if i had to pick scum right now i'd probably say coheedcambria, kloud, wolframnhart. (this is assuming there are 3 scum)

[dahill1]

I would also like to know why you think kloud, wolf and me are scum?

process of elimination

[dahill1]

regarding the people alive, i am pretty sure the rest of the people besides the 3 mentioned are town. as for dead people, you're right sirdan could've been scum but if he is (and there are 3 scum), then at least 2 of [CC, wolf, kloud] are scum, which is a pretty good percentage at lynching scum

[dahill1]

in response to fleur and bio: true, they are not detailed cases on why they are scum, because to be honest, there isn't that much of a case on any of them. however, i am

pretty

sure the rest of the players are town, so i see no reason to not suspect them through process of elimination if i am confident that everyone else is town.

[dahill1]

On Dahill - I agree that most of those you haven't named are

likely

town. This doesn't mean confirmed town, but even if it did, suspecting the three left through process of elimination is unhelpful-ish. There's not reason to think, from my point of view, that you're scum too, so you'd be better off making a case on one of your suspects than telling us you've come to the conclusion by process of elimination.

of course, you have no reason to see from my POV. but let me just say that i've breadcrumbed the shit out of my role and leave it at that.

[dahill1]

So you are 3rd party aligned Spyrex?

These are the kind of questions I don't like being asked. It's like asking "Hey are you the mafia?" as a serious question then the player responding "I'm town." It's not like their going to answer the question truthfully and why a third party character would out themselves unless it has some benefits to the town I'm not sure. I'd like you to elaborate on what you were trying to get at.

2nding these questions.
also, i believe this isn't the first time this has happened with CC.

[dahill1]

He did? where did i miss that?

2nd dis question

also,

vote CC

i honestly think this is the best lynch today based on my previous role-related points, and his somewhat strange behavior with the whole 3rd party thing and Spyre.
i can claim if necessary

[dahill1]

@dahill: why do you find me as one of the most scummy people in the game (just curious)

mainly by process of elimination

There

and I grouped them together because Dahill had grouped them together.

um..that was the same instance which you had voted me for..not a different time

[dahill1]

My point was that instead of building cases Dahill is using his personal opinions (i.e. Process of Elimination.)

that's overexaggerating it..
basically, that's saying i haven't made a case at all. and again role =/= personal opinion

[dahill1]

It may be a bit, but not by much and what do you mean by role=/=personal opinion?

rolefishing is bad

[dahill1]

as much as i hate these types of posts, i don't have much to add.
waiting for the kloud replacement.
to reiterate, i don't think CC's questioning of 3rd parties was a slip, per say. but rather he could have possibly been rolefishing as scum for a SK.

[dahill1]

didn't target porkens or plum

[dahill1]

don't mean to be rude, but i don't think SSK is worth cross-replacing into a lot of games for

[dahill1]

so um..done yet?

[dahill1]

thanks for the analysis
alright to start a lot of these views seem to be contradictory.
for example:

Bio trying to defend fleur with new reasons is pretty scummy. I want a claim.
Bio contradicts himself post 217 where he says that Gorrad jumped off the bandwagon once it lost heat which he did as well. Bio also parrots town's consensus.

<snip>

Bio gets multiple great cases going on. Bio is obv town in my opinion.

you go from asking for a claim from him(??) to saying obv town with no mention of him in between. what's with the sudden change of heart?
also,

Gorrad pariticpates with unidentifiable scumminess and unidentifiable townieness sometimes.

can you explain what this means? i don't really understand

Narrator claim was believable.

Town-aligned claim was actually probably true but may not have been.

Meta and Flavor mix defense is pretty good.

bolded the wishy-washy part. that's like saying "so-and-so is scum, but maybe not.."
lastly:

Porken's case was pretty lame.It was mostly made out of tunnel vision. Also, Porkens saying SpyreX's name I believe was pro-town. Uses WIFOM too much. Overall, I'd say Porkens is town.

what do you mean by the case was made out of tunnel vision. it's possible for players to be tunnelvisioned but the case itself isn't tunnelvision
and can you explain your reason for voting cc?

[dahill1]

@MSSK when did I "blindly follow town"?

yeah same question here except regarding me

[dahill1]

why not

unvote

i do want to hear from chazworthington

[dahill1]

mod i think we need a replacement for biohazard

also SSK, your response to my questions?

[dahill1]

A break in reading mostly and seeing he wasn't so scummy after the break.

just to clarify, were you asking for a claim from him?

I can't understand how he seemed townie/scummy when he did but it was there.

??? sorry, but i honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here

The player that made it had tunnelvision so most of the points are nulled.

how does the null the points? player being tunnelvisioned =/= invalid suspicions. for example, if a player is tunnelvisioned on scum, does that mean all of their points on them are wrong or null?

[dahill1]

@chaz. this just about sums up my gorrad vote

alright regarding Gorrad's claim: from all of the games i have played/read, it has been more times that scum have had this type of role than town. the only town version of this role i can think of was DGB in iPick. the reason it is usually scum that get this role is because they can manipulate the night scene to make it seem like a certain character made the kill. for example, if a player claimed "The Dragon", the scum could write something like "Player X - scorched to death Night 1". also, Spyre made a good point about the Grimm brothers being the narrator. furthermore, this seems like too powerful of an enabler role to even exist. the game goes into no-reveal after one death? sirdanilot makes another good point about the narrator being a third-party, which could translate into neutral in the game. all that being said, my vote stays.

regarding the # of scum, 3 is common for a 12p game, but as you said trying to outguess the mod too much leads into WIFOM

[dahill1]

Does anybody think scum safe claims can have safe actions (ie - giving a shoe to someone).

i personally have never seen "safe actions" and i think it's very doubtful that they even exist whatsoever. if they did exist, scum could become virtually unstoppable by always being able to confirm their fakeclaim

[dahill1]

i'm starting to see a common theme about roles in this game..

however, i think it's very unlikely that we have 3 mason pairs (if we are to believe bio)

-Plum+Porkens
-fleur and ??? (i'm considering fleur confirmed because of the shoe)
-bio and ???

the reason i find bio's claim more suspicious is because i can't think of any situation in which the apple would be given except the snow white poisonous apple thingy, and fleur's shoe fits perfectly with cinderella.

[dahill1]

Why are you assuming the bonus is mason-related?

If my gifting was in any way dangerous, would I openly admit to giving the apples?

mainly because of plum and porkens becoming masons, and the wording of fleur's role sounds like a seeking mason
as for you admitting to giving the apple, it looks like you claimed it before reading the entire thread

[dahill1]

Also, Plum, if you are going to consider flavor in your assumptions of me being scum, we should look at it closer.

Snow White is poisoned by an apple. It is a single apple. You received a basket of apples. For what you assume to be true, there would need to be a Snow White in the game. May be possible, I don't know. If there is, I have made no attempts to poison her. I am trying to find a sick relative and keep her company.

never mind i can start to see where your claim might fit in

@spyre: i'm pretty sure you know my role and can understand my frustruations..
that being said i think i will claim.
I'm Cinderella. that is the reason i defended fleur so much! i knew as soon as she claimed that she was looking for me. also, some more beneficial info: in my PM it hints that one of the scum is my stepmother.
i see no reason to give any more information on my role (regarding missions and such), atm.

[dahill1]

yup
i'm actually weighing the possibilities of a name claim right now from SSK, Chaz, and CC
it could give us a lot of new info

[dahill1]

yup
i'm actually weighing the possibilities of a name claim right now from SSK, Chaz, and CC
it could give us a lot of new info

Based on this it looks like you have figured mine out. I haven't really worked too hard to conceal it.

yep..
now is everyone starting to see why i suspected them by process of elimination before??

[dahill1]

oh yeah in case anyone's not convinced by my role, i just remembered i had breadcrumbed it:

as much as i hate these types of posts, i don't have much to add.
waiting for the kloud replacement.
to reiterate, i don't think CC's questioning of 3rd parties was a

slip, per

say. but rather he could have possibly been rolefishing as scum for a SK.

bolded the crumb.

[dahill1]

The claim didn't make sense,
I didn't expect the consequence.

basically this. i truly thought he was scum going for a gambit that his death would bring a noreveal. i didn't doubt he would be able to confirm his ability, but it is also an ability that scum have commonly had in the past

also a little clarification for my role, it doesn't straight up say "the stepmother is scum", but it does hint at it a little. i'll try to paraphrase it so i don't get modkilled. basically it says that i would be in trouble if my stepmother finds out that i'm not at home

[dahill1]

i'm here

waiting for people to name claim..

[dahill1]

vote chaz

as wolf's replacement.

mod

update player list to show chaz please.

This is the second time you've cast suspicions my way. I'd like to see what posts of wolf's you don't like. I doubt I'll be able to answer for him as he clearly has a different playing style than I do, but I'm surprised you're not making a more concrete case.

Needs more claim.

[dahill1]

SSK has to claim now

by the way, one of {chaz, bio} has to be scum because there's a contradiction. bio is looking for a grandman and chaz is looking for a woodsman, and SSK cannot be both. hence, one of them has to be lying.

based on the case outlined above by bio,

vote chaz

[dahill1]

gah forgot about the no reveal!

Actually, since chaz has claimed no bonus received, either Dan is grandmother or Chaz is lying.

but this is also true. plus, you're case still holds water, so i'll keep my vote there until SSK claims

[dahill1]

Actually, since chaz has claimed no bonus received, either Dan is grandmother or Chaz is lying.

No bonus was received.

I'm torn here, as I think the vote should be between dahill and CC. Dahill was quick to come forward with his reasons for voting gorrad, CC not so much. Therefore:

vote:CC

although scumhunting is important, i think this game is shifting towards the part of the game in which you focus moreso on claims

[dahill1]

hmm

the mod told me i was given a slipper and it fits perfectly
did you get a bonus fleur?

[dahill1]

A question for Fleur and Dahill: What bonus did you get? Also, seperately: how confident are you that the other is town?

i didn't receive any bonus
my mission isn't to find the prince, btw. it's something completely different. i can claim it if needed but i didn't find it necessary at the time since i knew fleur would pick me last night. i am pretty confident fleur is town mainly due to her claim and how it fits with my role

[dahill1]

CC are you saying you got the same bonus award as spyre?

[dahill1]

i guess i'll claim my mission since it won't hurt the town and give us some more info

i have to hammer a scum. that's how i know gorrad wasn't scum since i didn't receive the bonus after hammering him. also why i was so careful to unvote once someone was at L-2 or L-1 so someone else wouldn't hammer. i made an exception yesterday since we were so close to deadline and i couldn't afford to unvote and hope someone else came.

[dahill1]

Why would a princess,
want to smash a scum guess?

i'm not sure. i agree that the flavor doesn't really fit but that's what the mod sent me so i dunno

[dahill1]

yup i agree CC should bonus claim
i'm leaning towards CC as the lynch for today and if the game doesn't end i'm officially confused\
this noreveal is reallly not helping

[dahill1]

hm so either SSK was scum or CC is lying..
argh i did think SSK was scummy so this makes it scummier

(btw i'm discounting bio as scum since he played pretty pro-town the whole game)

hmm i'm considering possibly a nolynch today

[dahill1]

actually you know what this is a good plan
we no lynch today
spyreX vigs someone tonight and:
a) that person is scum and we win
b) that person is town and we lynch as best as possible tomorrow.

[dahill1]

Dahill's power, especially, seems to give him a free pass to vote/unvote/hammer as he pleases --super duper scumtastic

well to start, everyone has the power to vote/unvote as they please, so...

next, i'm not gonna just hammer and cut off discussion. notice how i gave plenty of time and warning before hammering gorrad, and that was only when i felt i was ready and discussion was over

[dahill1]

also argh forgot about CC's NK immunity

[dahill1]

posting this in all games i'm in:

Limited Access due to winter vacation until probably about Jan. 5th

[dahill1]

hi just got back from vacation
i'm ready to hammer when everyone else is
obviously i don't endorse me getting vigged since i'm going to receive some sort of bonus after i hammer that could help us, but it's up to Spyre

[dahill1]

got it
good luck and may you aim (or choose not to aim!) with the greatest precision

vote CC

[dahill1]

woo!
what would've been my bonus?

[dahill1]

wait so Spyre didn't have to post in rhyme??

also:

if i had to pick scum right now i'd probably say coheedcambria, kloud, wolframnhart. (this is assuming there are 3 scum)

and you guys disregarded my process of elimination

[dahill1]

wait so Spyre didn't have to post in rhyme??

also:

if i had to pick scum right now i'd probably say coheedcambria, kloud, wolframnhart. (this is assuming there are 3 scum)

and you guys disregarded my process of elimination

[dahill1]

that really sealed the deal for me in believing Spyre was town
excellently pulled-off gambit