Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

[farside22]

Hi all. Weekends are busy unless the little one naps I won't get a read thru till Monday. Thanks!

[farside22]

frelaras - Post 213 can you say wishy washy. Post 249 just feels like I'm joining a BW vote. By Post 297 I have to ask is there anyone you are not following to BW at this point?
sekinj - Post 71 bad sekinj for encouraging said antics of Nudude. Post 118 I agree with the Jebus comments. Should really be looking at everyone and not just the top voters. Post 124 someone just got mean. Meow in deed. Post 234 I hope you are kidding.
Ozymandius - Post 33 you have a good idea what characters would be scum roles? Rly? Why is that? Do you not think the mod would insure that scum don't have to worry about claiming an obvious scum character?
CallMeLiam - Post 48 hits the nail on the head that I stated to Ozy. pOST 146 I just thinking character claiming day one is bad. It's saved for like day 2 at least. I don't like how you attack Time for his thoughts on this. Post 209 I'm agree with Liam again. Someone is sane in this game. Yah!
ZONEACE - Why bread crumb your role, page one with no reason? Post 128 ready to call it a day already? Post 189 are we really trying to out guess the mod? I don't like his attitude on Jebus claim.
td - Et to brute (post 72)
Light-kun - Post 91 a ray of hope dashed by Klingon talk. (cry) Post 222 why not look it up on the internet to see for yourself if the claim has value?
Nudude - post 70 as about a gaame of dabo. Can't we move on to ask question or actually I don't know play mafia?
M4yhem (replacing Mana_Ku) (replacing Firestarter) - Post 148 am I the only one that felt this post said nothing of value?
Timeater - Post 202 I don't like the quick back and forth on this post.

Obviously I got more from some people then others. So far I'm really not liking frelaras. Also Ozy, but that's just more on gut then anything at the moment. Nudude is on that scum list as well. Yes I know lurkers more then anyone, but I felt good about some people more then others.

unvote:
vote: frelaras

[farside22]

@Farside:

I'm guessing there is going to be alot of speculating about character roles meshing with the canon in this game, which will be fun. I wonder how deep Delibird dived into show? Also, can we trust him as a proper interpreter? Personally I have good idea on what characters will be scum and which will not be.

I was mainly agreeing with this post, in post 33. I was implying that I had a good idea what characters would be scum and which ones may not be.

Most mod's don't make characters obvious of what is scum and town. I heard there was a mafia with Harry Potter where Harry was scum. So I assume nothing with character claim. Also I was in a X-men game where Iceman was scum. So character claim I take with a grain of salt.

[farside22]

Which is fine, honestly. I for one support the Jebus vig, I think you were justified. I'm really happy we have some good posters now, farside and mayhem. Big improvement. I guess right now most of us should be asking, where should we go from here? Who deserves the lynch?

Farside, just a small request - but if you are going to quote post numbers, please POST the original text in quote form. That way, we could see what you are trying to convey without having to scroll back through the thread.

Did you want that now with what I posted or just in the future do so?
For now I will do it in the future. It's just easier when doing a PBPA to use the post number.

[farside22]

I have been reading around but I don't see anyone with a top 2 or 3 scum list. That should have been done by now. So I put my thoughts. Who do people think are scum and why?

[farside22]

@Light: Weyoun is usually with the dominion, but there is an episode where he turns traitor to them and works for Odo. So, I can see how he could be a godfather role as suggested.

It sure was a shame when Weyoun died in that transporter accident.

Can we just scum hunt instead of talking about the show?
Light why are you so wishy washy with your suspect list?

[farside22]

Personally I think suspect lists are a bad idea.

Why? I didn't say tell me who you think is town. Plus it gets a general idea where people stand and you can see who is posting crap for crap reasons.

Timeater wrote:
Is it wrong of me to metagame thinking that Mana and Pie would not asked to be replaced if they were scum? (not the two people I mentioned) Honestly, if I got a scum role I wouldn't want to leave, I have only gotten to play scum once and thats with like 20-something games under my belt. Scum is just too fun to pass up. Just throwing that out there to see what people think. Apart of me wants to believe this, another part of me rejects it as too much assumption.


Yeah, in my experience replacing out as scum or town power is still fairly common. Boredom isn't the only reasonj to replace out, sometimes life just gets far too hectic and folk have to bail.

QFT.

[farside22]

Lately... I have been looking at two people a bit more closely, but mentioning who and what not could be a bad thing. It will take a bit of time.

Why would sharing your suspects be a bad thing? Taken a vow of secrecy, or something?

(Yes, I'm impatient. Deal with it.)

Agreed. Sure I know sometimes scum use that as people not to target typically, however getting feed back from people on scummy action is pro-town.

[farside22]

I really don't care for the light/ forbidden interaction against Liam. I don't believe lights vote on Liam is for the right reason's either.
I agree that if someone is that providing context and is just posting without really saying anything it comes off as scummy.
Since I see frelaras voting sek and I don't trust him but I see a contection somewhere here I will

unvote:
vote: light

[farside22]

PS: Seriously, Farside, I am a little confused on what your post was saying other than you voted me because I voted Liam. Please clarify because I don't know who forbidden is (because it looks like you are talking about a person named forbidden...)

Replace Forbidden with Sek. God I can't believe I got the two of them confused.

[farside22]

I have no problem trying to get ooba confirmed by lynching someone with a guilty on them.

ooba, don't say anything about further abilities you may have until you've used them.

I was late to the party, but I agreed with the above.

M4yhem hammer vote looks like scum making a quick day.

[farside22]

Are you guys not getting what im saying?

Please dont lynch him so quickly without discussing all our possible actions. I dont want to die tonight, and if I am to die, we might as well milk the potential of my role to the max!!

I think a discussion is wise. I was against Light for a bit. Was that a lynch. If so or not till the mod says something doesn't mean we should stop talking.
Also cults in mini games are rare to non exsistant.

[farside22]

Consider my vote on Light for all intents and purposes but Tim is right. We need some discussion before his lynch.

Light-kun wrote:
So, let's think this out:

If you kill me today, I have to admit, scum will win this game. There is almost no doubt in my mind of this.

If we kill the scum I reveal to you, then even if I kill someone tonight, then the scum can't win. I can't win. Town victory is pretty much assured.

If you have scum to reveal to us then reveal already. This just strikes me as a mild threat to the town (saying that you are sure the scum will win.) while trying to stall your lynch. I have no idea why the cult would know of the mafia and if anything this will probably turn into a desperate ploy on your part. Still I am interested to see how and who you will reveal.

I think he has lied about his recruits. For one I noticed a connection between Light and Fre on my read though. He constantly referred to him as “strange not scummy” I will look back though the thread for these posts.

Actually, you are partially correct. I *did* lie about my recruitments. Farside was never my target, it was you, Sotty7, who I converted last night. My plan was to have the town kill Liam when I revealed him. Then, I would tell farside (fabricating the other mafia member) to shoot tim and I would no kill. As a result, town would hold a majority of 2 to 2 to 1 (My Role Pm says I must OUTNUMBER all other factions, and with the above ratio, I would tie, not outnumber). Then, I would have farside, Sotty and myself vote no lynch, have farside no kill, and then I would win with farside and Sotty, unfortunately, I am lynched, so thanks to Liam (who I would probably have chosen to kill anyway), this plan went straight to hell.

And sense I think I cross posted: *Applause*! Farside, way to look town. Must be so convenient for three people to vote me, and now you didn't even have to hammer.

4/7

TD, Tim, Frelaras, and Liam... *sighs* I am dead. So, here was my plan, now it is hell shot. *Shrugs* I tried. Oh, as for Sotty, he is no danger. He will not die with me, but my PM tells me that he will just be an anti town group, irrelevant of the game otherwise.

Well, this was fun. Hope to play a game like this again.

MOD: Seriously, my role was AWESOME. Major kudos for the idea!

Why would you lie about who you converted. Oh that's right because I'm online and tell without hesitation that there is no reason at all that if you tried to recruit me that it would not fail.

[farside22]

I wish I hadn't asked now.

Since when do Cults kill?

I was in a cult game. (Get link later) where the cult had a choice to recruit or kill.

[farside22]

I wouldn't be against a mass claim. Although I think the scum may have been given safe claims after M4yhem's claim of Jake.

We really wasted a day yesterday quick lynching Light. He was the obvious choice but we could have had a lot more discussion. Now I can't help but feel like we are in a lynch or lose. We need to be really careful.

FOS: Scot

This is lynch or lose I agree on a mass claim.

[farside22]

I'm not exactly a fan of mass-claiming, but it does seem apropriate here.

Whether we actually are in lynch-or-lose depends on how many scum are left. There has to be at least one scum alive (because the game is still runnig) and there are likely no more than two scum alive (if there were, there had to be a bulletproof unlynchable townie (or something similar) to prevent a scum win and force a tie; there is simply no sensible way in which town could still win this scenario, so I'm deeming it unlikely).

Hence, there is (most likely) either one or two scum left. If there's exactly one scum left, we have 4:1 town:scum, which would go on to a three-player endgame in case of a mislynch.

If there's exactly two scum left, we are indeed in lynch-or-lose now. Since there's already two scum down, that means we started with a 8:4 town:scum ratio. Thus, day two dawned with 5:4 town:scum alive, which is also lynch-or-lose.

So, either we are not yet in lynch-or-lose or we have been in lynch-or-lose since day two.
However, without knowing how many scum remain, there is no way to tell which scenario we're in.

farside22 being so sure about us actually being in lynch-or-lose looks like she knows something we don't know.

If you look at all 12 player games there is almost always 3 scums. Even with one cult person I still don't doubt this as plausible.

[farside22]

Since we have no way of knowing if Kun recruited or not and what happened to the recruit after his death then it's best if we assume it's LYLO and play appropriately. I'm not too concerned about farside's comment as I assumed LYLO too.

Since we're all pro-claim I suggest character and role in full and since I brought it up I'm happy to go first.

I think scot or TD who seem against it should be one of the first to claim. Then I suggest which ever the two that goes first it we choose popcorn style.
Popcorn for those who don't know are as such. Who ever claims will choose the person to claim next and then that person claim and chooses who claims next.
Any question?

[farside22]

Fair enough, recruiting is indeed a point I missed.

Other than that, I think we should wait for frelaras to post before starting claiming.

Also, farside22, where exactly did you get the impression that I “seem against” massclaiming

in this specific situation?

I consider this wishy washy as far as claims go.

I'm not exactly a fan of mass-claiming, but it does seem apropriate here.

[farside22]

How exactly is “

general-statement

, but

situation-specific-statement-as-an-exception

” wishy-washy?

Wishy-washy necessarily implies that there are two contradicting statements. However, an “in most cases” expression and an exception to it are in no way contradictory and thus cannot be called wishy-washy.

Also, now that I've asked for evidence, you accuse me of being wishy-washy on claiming, whereas you did describe me as being

against

mass-claiming.

Post 545 is suggest that we might not be in lylo so really not up for claim. Saying that I know it is lylo also isn't a tell. I feel that is a big leap to make when anyone who's played her can tell you what I just said. Also saying I'm against mass claim but will do it is wishy washy.
It's basically saying I will do it but I dont like it. How is that not wishy washy?

[farside22]

td: Do you have an issue with claiming first?

[farside22]

I'm fine with going first. I would like to throw some caution to the wind, but I need to verify something first before I do it.

[farside22]

I asked the mod a question, but I will claim first and I think popcorn is a good way to go in regards to claims. Anyone taking there time should be looked at.

I am Kira Nerys/ Vanilla townie.

I want TD to go next

It's not at all about lynch-or-lose, but about you knowing when there's not enough information available to us to know. Thus, you either lied about “knowing” and are indeed just guessing or you have more information available than the rest of us.

What part of a 12 player game and normal 3 scum did you miss?

farside22 wrote:
Also saying I'm against mass claim but will do it is wishy washy. It's basically saying I will do it but I dont like it. How is that not wishy washy?


I never stated that I was against mass-claims. I did make a general statement about “not exactly being a fan” of them and then said that nevertheless, a mass-claim in this specific situation would be “apropriate.”

I will concede to that point, but I think it's a thin line.

@Scot: Misread your comment. I thought I saw that you were against mass claim.

[farside22]

What part of a 12 player game and normal 3 scum did you miss?

If it's a 12-player game with “normal 3 scum,” we are in lynch-or-lose

if and only if

Light-kun has successfully recruited another player. If he did not, we are not in lynch-or-lose.

--

I am Constable Odo, Chief of Security. During the night, I revert to my liquid natural state. During the day, however, I can try to link with another player to see if they are a changeling. So far, I can confirm ZONEACE, M4yhem, Timeater and CallMeLiam as solids (that is, non-changelings). Also, see post #72 for a breadcrumb.

I'd like CallMeLiam to go next.

Sorry I'm unfamiliar with changeling. Was that what a recruiter did or is that a scum thing?

[farside22]

It's a “scum thing,” the changelings are the Founders of the Dominion.

I'm more confused. You said you checked M4yhem. But didn't he turn out to be scum?

[farside22]

Changelings are the shapeshifters we spent much of day one arguing about. If truthful, td is confirming their presence. If truthful, day one is going to be fertile ground for scumhunting.

I'm Quark. Each night I pick a player, and the next day I can force their vote to whereever I choose. The flavour behind it is me buying votes.

I'd like to see Sotty next please.

I saw the discussion on it, but I'm confused why he didn't see M4 as a changeling. Or is M4 not a changeling?

[farside22]

If it's a 12-player game with “normal 3 scum,” we are in lynch-or-lose if and only if Light-kun has successfully recruited another player. If he did not, we are not in lynch-or-lose.

I don't play often with cults in mini games. The few I know of there is still 3 scum and 1 cult in a 12 player game. I don't know if Light target went through he stated he targeted me then said he targeted Scot I believe (need to double check), but since he tried to lie about me I don't know what to believe about anything he stated.

[farside22]

I'm more confused. You said you checked M4yhem. But didn't he turn out to be scum?

A changeling is certainly scum (because non of the claimed roles

should

be a changeling), but not every scum is necessarily a changeling (indeed, the Vorta are not, yet they are part of the Dominion).

--

I don't play often with cults in mini games. The few I know of there is still 3 scum and 1 cult in a 12 player game.

Ah, now I see where the misunderstanding was: I counted “3 scum and 1 cult” as “four scum.”

Scum = mafia
SK = SK
Cult = Cult
Just the way I see things. I forget some people clasify cult as scum. I see them all will different goals so I seperate them into groups.

[farside22]

Why not call the mafia “mafia?” Then you could use scum as a generic term for mafia, SK, cult and whatever not-town-aligned-roles there might be.

I don't know. I just always think mafia is scum even when I am mafia. That would take a bit to adjust my thinking.

[farside22]

I wasn't dubious of the vanilla aspect. The reason I asked was because I would think twice about lynching a claimed power-role to test a cop, but a vanilla townie isn't the biggest loss.
As for today, I will now freely admit to be suspicious of our claimed vanillas. So far we've seen no vanillas and the only person to claim it was scum.

Do you doubt the scum have a safe claim?
So you think both Sotty7 and myself are scum because we are the only one claiming Vanilla?

[farside22]

I'm going to be busy this weekend. I have 3 games to write up on. So don't expect anything from me till Monday. Thanks

[farside22]

Just wanted to put this down now. I looked just a M4's post right now to see if I found a connection. Sek brought up something before she was voted out:

sekinj wrote:

I think there is a frelaras/mayhem scum team based on the coaching and distancing seen in fre’s posts 4 and 14.

Something I will keep in mind because I recall a big push on her even after her claim.

Also looks like scum do have fake claims. Here is what M4 stated before he was lynched:

I'm Jake Sisko. I'm guessing Garak is paranoid then, I can't see why he would lie about targeting me. It makes sense both flavor and balance wise, especially if Timeeater is also some sort of cop, which he seems to be implying.

I'm not sure who Jake Sisko is if anyone.

[farside22]

frelaras - Post 213 can you say wishy washy. Post 249 just feels like I'm joining a BW vote. By Post 297 I have to ask is there anyone you are not following to BW at this point?
Frelaras never responded to this post above. Also want to add.
This post where fre agrees with sek:

sekinj wrote:
I currently like Time's case against Liam.

QFT. When viewed in context, Liam is throwing around a lot of suspicion, especially to devalue minor character claims (eg the Rom line). In fact we've just lost a townie based on what many saw as a inadequate character claim (the behaviour didn't help either). The massclaim comment didn't help much either. Liam mentioned being busy, but pressuring him seems more useful than the recently prodded td.

Later when Liam is "cleared" by his claim by many and Sek turns her thoughts on Freles he turns back on her.

I've been thinking about sekinj's case on me. It seems like she's been pretty erratic. First she had a case on Timeater, then she moved to Jebus "because it was the only play anyone was willing to make." Then she jumped to Zoneace, then to Liam. And now I'm her latest suspect, largely for answering a replacement's question. It seems like her votes have been those of convenience, following the town around. I wanted to avoid the obvious omgus vote, but after considering her voting pattern, I'm getting convinced she's scum. vote: sekinj

I get an OMGUS on this.
I have many issues with Frelaras from the beginning. I didn't care for the Liam votes from the beginning and stated as much and felt his vote was a BW vote for little reason. Then after agree with the person who he follows he turns on her when she starts pointing to him.

[farside22]

Sotty7 (replacing Ozymandius) - Ozymandius - Post 33 you have a good idea what characters would be scum roles? Rly? Why is that? Do you not think the mod would insure that scum don't have to worry about claiming an obvious scum character? As for scot I can't say I got anything with he wasn't around with M4 lynch. Said little on the light lynch and now he is talking.
I didn't care for Ozy and I hate to see someone replaced with someone who has brought nothing to the game.

[farside22]

Just wanted to put this down now. I looked just a M4's post right now to see if I found a connection. Sek brought up something before she was voted out:

sekinj wrote:

I think there is a frelaras/mayhem scum team based on the coaching and distancing seen in fre’s posts 4 and 14.

You remember that the completely lackluster nature of that case was a large part of the reason people voted for her? I answered a replacement's irrelevant question; that's not providing a defense or putting words in his mouth or anything like coaching.
Furthermore, her voting pattern was completely erratic, and she got around to me, throwing out that as her reasoning. Yeah, I voted for her based on that. Don't throw out OMGUS as if it meant something by itself. If someone votes you for scummy reasons, you look them over and vote them if they're scummy.

@farside: I can't tell from your most recent post what you're saying I didn't respond to. Was that a quote from a post I didn't respond to? If you can clarify that I'll take a look.

(I'm going to a wedding today and have Canadian thanksgiving stuff this weekend so I don't promise instant replies)

I did that at post 334. You never responded.

[farside22]

Interesting frelas before doing that post did you even look at oxy/scot as well and see if you see a connection? Do think there is more then one scum? Why not look at everyone before voting on one person?

[farside22]

"A Vote Count is a Vote Count...until a better one comes along."

farside22 (1): frelaras
td (1): td

Not voting (3): CallMeLiam, Sotty7, farside22

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

I will be looking for some more activity or there may be a deadline in the near future.

How is td voting for himself?

[farside22]

At this moment I find everyone voting or with a vote on them a bit scummy by virtue of no quicklynch having happened.
td is voting for himself because I'm making him.

What did you think of my case on the two I feel are scum? What did you think about frelas post in regards to myself as scum and his quick vote with no other suspects?

[farside22]

You admit to knowing there is 2 scum's left how else would a quick lynch happen with your vote? If there is 2 scums who would be the second scum. You have not consider any of this in your analysis.

[farside22]

Can I please get someone to actually weigh in who doesn't think that frelas is just looking to end the game in a scum win. Would be really great.

[farside22]

Mod: Prod TD please!

[farside22]

**poke

[farside22]

vote: td

Happy with this.

Why?

[farside22]

I'm waiting for others to comment. If TD isn't scum I suspect frelaras or sotty to hammer at this point. If he is then I may need to look further into TD.

[farside22]

Well, I'd definitely others to get in here and comment. Farside and I going back and forth does little for the town.

I would like to point at even more suspect logic from farside. There definitely seems like inside knowledge of the remaining number of mafia, along with a dubious claim about what should happen next.

I'm starting to think you're the last remaining scum, farside, and you can't hammer or you'll be toast tomorrow.

The scenario just isn't as obvious as you make it out.

Liam, do you have a case on td you'd like to make or is this just a random gambit? Leaving it up to others to do the reread on your target is pretty lazy and not very helpful. I might be convinced to vote td if I saw your reasoning. However, also see my strong suspicion of farside before thinking I'll move elsewhere very quickly.

How many times do I have to say that almost everyone 12 player gave has 3 scums. If you can point to one game (seriously just one) where 12 players is only 2 scum I would love to see it.

vote: TD

I think Frelas is scum and his lack of vote tells me more then enough.

[farside22]

Note: td is not voting himself, that's just an error on CDBs part and I'm searching for a replacement for him

CallLiam did you lie?

unvote

[farside22]

Oh boy. Here comes trouble. Okay Fonz I swear I'm not scum this game is slow and no one is helping.

[farside22]

Farside, would you care to elaborate on your reasoning for the vote switch in 404?

I think I am starting to know some players better then others. Light was reading scummy to me. I had a feeling especially when he voted for Liam for what I felt was poor reasoning it was just a bw vote with no substance.

[farside22]

Farside, why did you try to hammer TD?

I truely believe frelas is scum and when he posted and didn't vote on him I believe it is becasue TD is his scum partner. Scot has been noticeable absent. I believe Liam to be town so I did the math and hammered. Note I did unvote, the mod didn't count my vote and I haven't revoted as I wanted to see what you had to say on everyone.

[farside22]

I am Miles O'Brien, and my technological knowledge of the station gives me protection against dominion attacks (aka night kills). However, given that's it's old cardassian junk it's not reliable on subsequent nights.

(Glad I checked in from work on my break, that went quickly)

Just a note I do know a few mods who make either a GF immune to NK or a SK.
Thoughts?

[farside22]

Actually I have a thought on this. Liam if you are around can you comment on why you think TD is scum and if you think lynching a vanilla is still the way to go, why did you vote TD?

[farside22]

This is rediculous.

vote: scott

[farside22]

Just a note I do know a few mods who make either a GF immune to NK or a SK.
Thoughts?

Does this game have town NKers or an SK...?

Now you're just slinging mud. *.*

Between that and your overeager hammer attempt and everything else I went over, I can't really see me voting for anyone but farside today. But I've already said that...

I'm glad we've had some new action in this thread... I guess we're waiting on sotty? I'm around, there just wasn't, well, anything besides me and farside arguing until the Fonz replaced in.

Unless Fonz is my scum parnter this is a weak case. I hammer him then what? If I'm scum and he isn't then as scum I should win (assuming as I do there are 2 scum's left). Fonz is scum then that leave you or scot. Liam as scum doesn't even register in my mind. So either it's you or scot as scum. I have a thought which is the only reason I am not hammering Fonz as a potential scum because if he is telling the truth I think he should check you out as the GF. That is my point.

Gee Fonz according to your wiki. I'm always scum.

[farside22]

Mod: What is the status on the replacement?

[farside22]

Wake me when something happens.

[farside22]

I'm giving this till Monday Nov 10th for the mod to find a replacement and get this game going before I ask for a replacement or declare this game dead. Seriously we only get 4 mini's to play and I do wish to move on to other chances to play other mini game.
Thank you.

[farside22]

I am agree on this idea.

unvote, vote: frelaras

[farside22]

Sooooo?

Any word from Max, the backup mod?

Nope. Nor CBD

[farside22]

What about MeMe? Think she might have a copy of the game layout?

Typically no.

[farside22]

I've prodded CDB he said earlier that he was back, but that is obviously no longer the case, I will do vote count and mass prod in a minute

No need for a prod on me. However the replacement issue is a problem.

[farside22]

Holy mother mary of god. Admiral will you please for the love of all that is good claim please?

[farside22]

Mod: I had requested replacement from this game for the purposes of it's slow to dead place. I appologize, but I still request replacement