Mini 638 - Batman Mafia - Prozacmod 1 - Over

[sthar8]

Hi guys.

I need to read the thread and digest it like some nice pink salmon, but I don't anticipate holding everything up for more than a day or two.

[sthar8]

Sorry it took me so long to get this up, but there was a lot of crap to wade through.

Hmmm...This in going to be like untangling a ball of yarn.

ABR needed to die, as did pwnz. The problem with this game is that we've had quite a few very stupid town mistakes, so it's difficult to discern scum slips from dumb townies. Since the heat those townies got was well deserved, I'm having a hard time feeling out the motivations involved.

I think zoneace may have broken charter's heart, or something, and danger didn't really do anything other than OMGUSsing zoneace. If I had been in the game, I definitely would have pushed to lynch charter after his ridiculous after-the-fact admonishing of the ABR wagon. I'm not sure how I can explain all the things that charter and danger did wrong, but if you would all be so kind as to point out specifically what I need to address, I'll do my best.

Flameaxe is lurking rather much. All he's done so far is fuel the pwnz fire, pounce on KE, and make a boatload of irrelevant comments. If I didn't know that he has had at least some access problems, I'd be voting him.

Godot's play has been absolutely atrocious. Inconsistent opinions, terrible reasoning, appeals to emotion, failing to defend himself. Grem, you may get my vote soon, although I don't know how you can explain all godot's garbage.

KE has that one good point about godot, but he keeps asserting that zoneace and kloud are scum even though I haven't seen any real evidence to that effect from him. His appeals to emotion and poor response to pressure make me think that he might be scum who anticipated very little resistance on the godot wagon. This makes me question my judgement of godot. I'm not solidly convinced on KE's scumminess, but I might be willing to vote him after I take a closer look at the numbers involved.

Kloud didn't do a whole lot of obvious scumhunting on day 1, but he asks plenty of good questions and I can't see anything that indicates an anti-town motivation.

SL's thought processes were very transparent, which I like. UA seems to be continuing the trend, and I don't see anything particularly scummy from either of them.

I like wolf's tendency to promote a logical case, and his posts make up for Crubs lack, as UA has already noted.

Zoneace has been abrasive, difficult, spammy, and unclear. Despite this, however, his actions have a distinct pro-town slant to them. He was on both of the townie wagons, but both of those wagons were fairly well justified. I disagree with some of the positions he's taken, but rude and unhelpful do not mean scummy.

UA: I'm Catwoman, if that wasn't clear from charter's horrible puns.

My suspects, in order, are Godot/Gremwell, KE, Flameaxe.

I'm going to be out of town starting this afternoon and ending sometime between Sunday afternoon and Monday morning Pacific time.

[sthar8]

i dont recall saying zoneace is scum. i'm not going to go gack and this point and see if i did, gut i remember saying that he is mean and vindictive gut not scum.

Sorry, KE. I must have misinterpreted your attacks on zoneace's credibility as being directed at his alignment. Or maybe I misattributed a few of your unsourced quotes.

and how can my argument make you feel less sure agout your feelings? Either you have them or you don't.

What?

[sthar8]

On my way out, but I'll explain why I find godot scummy when I get back.

Cat references was not a choice that charter made.

[sthar8]

I'm back from my extended cat nap.

Godot did some seriously scummy things:
1. He was too certain about the "one hero is scum" and "one scum is post restricted" assertions that he made. The only reasons he could be so sure would be a) he's scum or b) he's a lazy thinker. We have no evidence that suggests that character names are in any way linked to alignment, and it's just as possible that our mod randomized names independently of roles, or that he assigned PR's to vanilla townies to spice up their game. The fact that he referred to this unsupported assumption as "logic" feeds both these hypotheses. He also never actually accused anyone on the basis of these assumptions, but he certainly wanted the town to be more aware of the people he was pointing fingers at.

2. He started out supporting the "heroes as mafia" idea, but quickly retracted his support after zoneace expressed disapproval. Note that he didn't suggest the theory initially, which makes sense because he, as both a mafiate and a villain, would not have known that the majority of townies are also villains.

3. He OMGUSsed charter because "speculation never hurt anyone," even though accepting his assertions could clearly have led to several mislynches based on less evidence than normal. He also used an appeal to emotion to vilify charter in the post in which he voted.

4. His whole "Claim. No claim. I will claim. But not yet. Ok now. Hold on. I'll claim if an arbitrary number of people claim before me." routine reeked of scum hoping to find a safeclaim or trick some Power Roles into claiming. I think he was contemplating a false name claim for some reason, but he wanted to know what wouldn't be countered.

5. He suggested an attack on SL without making it himself. Scum would want to avoid being the person pushing a wagon. Then, while defending this action he was very careful to say that while he was impressed by SL's claim, he thought he might still be scum. He gave no real reason for refraining from questioning him.

6. He accused charter of being "too townie." I hope I don't need to explain this.

7. He used the chainsaw defense (sort of) when KE attacked him, in that he was careful to avoid any form of attack on KE when he responded. His response to KE was "your suspicions are justified but invalid" with no explanation of why. This could be buddying with KE, or scum avoiding attacking his partner.

8. Appeal to emotion coupled with his claim. He had no real defense, but he was trying to scare townies off his wagon.

9. He almost continually promises "another post soon," then fails to post anything for 2-4 days. Looks like scum trying to appear active, especially when we consider that many of the posts in question are entirely empty of useful comments.

10. He did almost no scumhunting.

You'll notice that "he got replaced" is not on the list of what I find scummy.

I hate to mimic charter at all, but Godot was consistently scummier than KE, and Grem's done nothing to remedy the situation.

Unvote, Vote: Gremwell

it was a post restriction?

The answer to this should be painfully and blatantly obvious to anyone who can read.

[sthar8]

Both charter and Danger have

apologized in thread

for breaking the post restriction. How much more clear could it be?

By the way, I've failed to reference cats or catlike behavior in only one post so far (549). You've failed to fact check, you're deliberately exaggerating, or I'm too subtle for you. Two of these things are scummy.

I don't recall Danger ever doing so either

Then your memory is failing you.

catastrophes

Tail beetween the legs was my Cat reference and I stand by it! good day sir

That Cat should learn to cool

Drat! Cat shit

and that all that needs to be said.....until..(cat)

let the cat out the bag

last cat-istoficpost.

Danger and charter may have both broken the restriction a few times, but both of them noted in-thread that they had done so. Why would three seperate individuals all continue the stupid cat-puns unless they were restricted? If they were scum, what advantage would they gain by deceiving the town into accepting the restriction?

Anticipating an argument that my role would have been punished for breaking the PR, I hasten to point out that KE was not punished, nor was zoneace or flameaxe. And Kloud, you haven't been punished for breaking your recently imposed restriction.

Careful of the PR criticisms, you might just wind up posting in tiny purple spanish or something

Moving on:

clearly you don't hate it all that much

Was this meant to accomplish anything or is it more of the useless garbage we've been seeing from Godot all game?

why was Godot scummy for thinking that a hero and post restricted role could be scum, while several people were speculating that all 3 heroes were scum, and yet you find none of them scummy?

Did you even read my post? I said that Godot was scummy because he was

too sure

of theories that were only tangentially related to logic, because he used these theories to suggest that others make attacks that he was unwilling to pursue himself, and because his flip-flopping indicated a desire to be perceived as town above a desire to win with town. I

never

said that his theories themselves were scummy.

In addition, I see no parallel between a theory that suggested that two unique subgroups with a high probability of having the same population might be the same group and an assertion that one group would definitely be spread out among several other subgroups. Further, no one suggested that we take any action regarding the first theory, but Godot kept pushing the second theory and continued to announce that members of the subgroups would be higher on his list of suspicions than they otherwise would. I don't think the comparison is valid, or that condemnation of one implies condemnation of the other.

Gremwell, are you going to make a habit of creating false straw men to attack instead of addressing my points?

Zoneace,
I think I've proven that I'm a good deal more logical than charter was. Is there any concern of yours that I can respond to, or are you just going to continue blindly calling for my death like a broken record player?

[sthar8]

551 has a cat reference in it. Do you know how to spell "cat"?
You still haven't given any explanation for why I would continue charter and danger's cat theme if it weren't some kind of restriction, or explained the apologies for breaking the restriction or what advantage scum might get from faking such a restriction.

1. I never said any of my evidence was perfect or undeniable, but when we have a behavior that suggests "X or scum" and another that suggests "Y or scum" and a third that suggests "Z or scum," it's time to seriously consider "scum" as the answer. As for the "speculation" comment, where did you expect me to get solid proof? Your defense against these points is no more than speculative as well. The difference, of course, is that I support my speculations with facts and reasoning.

2. Good point. The idea that he was trying to avoid attention while pushing that theory is still relevant, regardless.

3. Calling his "theory" WIFOM was backtracking from his previous posts in which he referred to it as logic. How was it "petty" or "low" of charter to vote someone for trying to pass WIFOM off as logic on day 1? And what was Godot's comment about charter if not an attempt to discredit his opposition by belittling him and appealing to the audience's sense of moral superiority?

4. Did I say he fake claimed? And where did you address this? I don't see anything in any of your posts that's even close to real support for townie motivation behind that action.

5. That's not what he did, though. He didn't call SL scummy, he just suggested that someone else might want to. That is

very

scummy, because it suggests that he wants the wagon to form, but doesn't want to be seen as part of it.

6. post 229

7. posts 260, 265, and 312 (near the end, after all the emotional appeals)

8. posts 308 and 312

9. But his empty garbage goes all the way to the start of the game. And a good portion of his posts near the end were complaining that others weren't posting enough. I'm saying that his disinterest in the game resulted from the fact that he was trying to avoid notice . He didn't want to generate any content, and no one else was creating any for him to comment on, so he lost interest.

10.

He. Did. No. Scumhunting. None.

All of his votes were on people who had voted him, people already under scrutiny from someone else, and random lurkers. Town wins this game by catching scum, and godot was not interested in doing that. I'm not buying your "he's a special little boy with special needs and a special way of helping" line. Some things are useful to the town, and godot wasn't doing any of them. While we're on the subject, you don't seem to care who we lynch, either. Maybe if you spent a little less time making up poor arguments that I'm not using to defend against, you might be able to hide your scumminess a little better.

Kloud, I missed this before, but it would be unwise to judge anyone's actions based on ABR's play in this game. He wasn't scummy, he wasn't townie. He was just stupid, and it was right to eliminate his unreadable idiocy early in the game.

[sthar8]

Your last post. 571. You assert that ABR's play is evidence against my thought that a post restriction is the most reasonable (and therefore obvious) explanation for the occurences of cat references in my role's posts. I argue that ABR's play was not reasonable as scum

or

town, and therefore it should not be used as a comparison, as any parallels would assume that charter and danger were even more devoid of reason and logic than they otherwise demonstrated.

[sthar8]

point of clarification: When I refer to ABR being "not townie," I mean that his actions were inconsistent with achieving the town win condition, not that he was of neutral alignment.

I'm not intending to be defensive on this point. I'm pointing out the logical reasoning that should lead to a high probability of my role's peculiar habit being a post restriction. If you remember, the point came up because gremwell defended his predecessor by asserting that no other townies were behaving reasonably with regard to the early name-claims. In fact, his wording implies a tu quoque attack against me because he accuses charter specifically of said craziness. I'm refuting his point by pointing out that charter's cat references were dictated by a post restriction. Because he expressed doubt, I must now point out how it was the most reasonable conclusion to assume that I do have a PR. My entire goal regarding this topic is to maintain the validity of my attack on godot and refute gremwells' tu quoque attack.

As for your argument, I would point out that nowhere do I suggest that any of this is in any way indicative of alignment. In addition, I'm not disputing the

facts

of ABR's play, I'm disputing the validity of a comparison between it and charter/danger's play. Finally, I don't care what conclusions you

actually

came to. What I am arguing are the conclusions that you

should have

drawn.

Your comparison of ABR's play to that of my role involves Cartesian demons, assumptions that our reasoning is doomed to fail because of the possiblility that our perceptions are incorrect. Despite the anecdotal evidence you have experienced, it is an error to assume the possiblity that any of us are without reason, without any evidence. Such an assumption undermines

any

logical conclusion, therefore it can be discarded until it gains factual support.

Your comparison of my role's play to your own violates the principle of Ockham's Razor. You assume that four demonstrably different and random entities are likely to make the same playstyle choice independently of one another. Much simpler, and thus much more reasonable, is that we were forced into the feline flavor (oh god, now I'm doing it unconsciously!).

Your examples are all instances in which the town's logic was faulty, not instances in which the logical process failed you. Your assessment of ABR's claim failed to account for Darla's posting flavor. I hope you never assumed that ABR was scum, because his behavior did not logically indicate that (it indicated unhelpfulness and unpredictibility, which are often more dangerous than scumminess). The heroes=scum theory never progressed past speculation, because it's basis was not yet supported by evidence.

I'm not saying that you should be solidly sure that I have a post restriction, but given charter and danger's apologies to the mod and the high incidence of consistency in the cat references combined with the lack of advantage to faking such a restriction, the existence of a pr is the most logical, reasonable, simple, and obvious explanation.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, what do you think about godot, then gremwell's play?

[sthar8]

My role PM

does not

include a real name, though it does include some background information (apparently catwoman has a daughter, and is in jail for shooting someone called Black Mask.)

kloud: Glad we got that cleared up.

kloud and Zoneace: I'm willing to try my hand at reasoning out charter's actions, if you'd like to point out what you found the most suspicious. I can't promise anything, since some of his play is entirely inscrutable to me, but I can try.

Zoneace: what do you think of godot/gremwell?

[sthar8]

It might be a punishment for intentionally violating his PR. Our mod seems to be rather lenient when someone mistakenly violates the rules, but the claws come out when it's intentional mischief-making.

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Anything, guys? Deadline is creeping up on us.

If anyone has any questions for me, I'd be glad to answer them.

I've made my case on scum, but I'll move my vote late tomorrow if I need to, because I won't be in town on the day of the deadline and I don't think no-lynch is a good play.

Note the lurking from gremwell.

[sthar8]

Probably KE. I don't think he's as strong a lynch as gremwell, but it looks like if no one else is convinced I'll have a choice between KE and myself as probable lynches. Since I know that I'm a townie, the right play is to vote KE, especially since I won't be around for any last-minute changes.

[sthar8]

there are 5 other people playing this game who haven't posted between these posts

Ummm, only if you count the dead. Everybody but kloud has posted since the last time you did, and your content level dropped off much before then. It's good to know that you can still pop up to "defend" yourself with some unsupported assertion, even if you're not interested in catching scum.

Why the hell aren't you voting for me? With your recent stance on KE, I'm clearly your only suspect (though you haven't given any reasons). So why not put your money where your mouth is? Are you afraid that when I flip town the others will take a good, hard look at your ridiculous defenses and lack of reasoning? Get your hands dirty, scum.

[sthar8]

EBWOP: Meow. Meow. Meow Meow Meow. Sorry

Kloud: Thanks, I'll do my best.

1) I'm honestly surprised charter survived day 2 after this. The only minor defense I can muster is that despite what he said, charter never expressed that particluar opinion before ABR was lynched. If he were scum, it would've made more sense for him to be seen opposing a townie-lynch than it would to be confrontational after the fact. The way he presented his side actually minimized any advantage that he could gain as scum. He didn't use the "I-told-you-so" as a case or even an indication of his own credibility, and scum should be trying

not

to draw large amounts of negative attention and hostility to themselves. As for his atitude and personal attacks, I don't see any real scum advantage to be gained here, and they

were

mostly the result of escalation caused by inflammatory comments made by others. I'd take this more as a tell toward maturity level than alignment.

2) Charter was feeling intense frustration at this point. He became suspicious of Godot very early in day 1, only to have his (less than cogent) arguments dismissed offhand. After that, the town embarked on a wagon that he (ostensibly) felt strongly opposed to, which ended in a mislynch. This vindicated his feelings, but when he tried to express this he was effectively laughed down and called stupid. In his view, the town had been wasting time for a good chunk of the last two days, and he felt that godot was obviously suspicious (as I do, though for different reasons). I believe charter felt that any more time spent discussing would be a waste, as the town had proven that (in his eyes) it's discussion was inferior to his observations. His dickish attitude was a result of this feeling, and I believe that it was this frustration and his subsequent humiliation at Zoneace's hands that caused him to leave the game.

3) You're overlooking something here. Pwnz

agreed

with charter. You were attacking pwnz for basically announcing that he agreed with the godot wagon, but it was charter that he agreed with. Feeling embattled by his immature spat with zoneace, charter wasn't about to attack the people on his side. His defensive attitude suggests that he was thinking much more in terms of "us vs them" than "find the scum." In addition, I find it not improbable that he actually didn't understand the case on pwnz. No offence, but you response to him was hardly encouraging. You basically told him that he wasn't reading carefully enough, then pointed him to a post that could pass for a short novel. The post in question was hardly concise, and it's rather trying to read much of your content at once because of your new PR. Since this was around the same time he was replaced, it's possible that charter never even read that post.

As for KE's actions, I think you're misunderstanding his case against you. From:

The fact that you were asking for mass claims with everyone else made you seem scummy like everyone else that did it, gut the DEFENSE OF GODOT WHICH I HAVE CALLED YOU ON

I gather that he found everyone pushing for massclaims suspicious, but you more so because you didn't agree with him about godot. This explains why he never attacked charter, because they were both suspicious of godot.

I understand that much of charter's play was really terrible, and I'm not advocating allowing one's emotions to rule, but the things he did don't really provide all that much advantage to scum.

[sthar8]

First loss.

Good job Kloud and wolf. I never suspected kloud, and I only started to think that wolf was scum right at the very end.

There was a

lot

of town suck in this game, though.