Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Not_Mafia

Seems like a foregone conclusion anyways.

[Nachomamma8]

this is weird to me, like yes we might all decide that he's the best compromise wagon today or some day or whatever, but in general i feel like we can do better, esp. on day1, esp since he just abt never has any useful interactions to sort other people with.
if we just do this early on and he's town and we flip him we just let scum jettison their weakest player, and if he's scum and we flip him we just lose our strongest player
(and honestly in most universes depending on who the scumteam is that's like ... my slot or yours)
so like

I mean if something better comes up I'm all for it but as for right now we know that we're taking an L on Not_Mafia if town eventually (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually) - if he's mafia then we have one shot and one shot only to kill him and that's right this second.

If he flips town it sucks, but if we flip any town day 1 it sucks same as usual so I don't necessarily understand the point you're making here.

And if I'm the strongest town player then we're already screwed sooo...

[Nachomamma8]

Y’all leave not mafia alone until I have time to read him tyvm

You can read him while I'm shipping him off to a sweet slumber. Diamonds are made under pressure after all.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean if something better comes up I'm all for it but as for right now we know that we're taking an L on Not_Mafia if town eventually (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually) - if he's mafia then we have one shot and one shot only to kill him and that's right this second.

We literally don't even have to kill him to win. I'm having a hard time seeing where you're going with this.

We don't have to kill him to win. If he's scum we only have one day to get a sweet point out of him.

[Nachomamma8]

but it's the first thing i saw that could potentially be worth a real vote

i'm not trying to get to strength of conviction here, i'm more just asking "if this is a scum play, what is nacho actually trying to do w/ it" because at first glance it just seems like something you don't understand or agree with

trying to get an easy flip without too much discussion if possible to get to night faster
(again i'm not saying he is doing that per se but if he were scum i think that that's what his goal would be)

~ skitter

And here I thought that what I was doing was controversial, something that would make me the center of attention.

[Nachomamma8]

policying NM is my idea of a good time

-Mena

Then take my heart and let's go on a magic carpet ride together.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean if something better comes up I'm all for it but as for right now we know that we're taking an L on Not_Mafia if town eventually (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually) - if he's mafia then we have one shot and one shot only to kill him and that's right this second.

We literally don't even have to kill him to win. I'm having a hard time seeing where you're going with this.

We don't have to kill him to win. If he's scum we only have one day to get a sweet point out of him.

Why we only have one day?

Because his team will sacrifice him the first opportunity they get. I know I would if scum!

[Nachomamma8]

If you're an alt, then your 5 is a lie??

what

You said on your post 5 that you never played in this setup but you're an alt, right? If so, then you may actually played in this setup before just not from this current account?

This is a convoluted play if Salsa is scum here.

The chances of Not_Mafia being scum and us having to hit him today rise.

[Nachomamma8]

Btw, I've a question in my mind for some days, but keep forgetting about it. I remember now so will ask here....
What does

ship someone

(or the spelling is sheep??) mean? I googled it but couldn't understand properly.

In the context in which I used it, it means to send. Sending someone to sleep means killing them.

[Nachomamma8]

Notsci please @ me when you're also townreading salsa

[Nachomamma8]

Infinity what do you think of my push?

[Nachomamma8]

Infinity what do you think of me???

[Nachomamma8]

Lilith has my favorite response to my push, notscience my least favorite. The scum motivation that Lilith presented makes more sense than what skitter did and it feels more like she's trying to figure me out whereas skitter it's more "what Nacho is doing is bad" versus "what Nacho is doing is likely to be coming from scum". With regards to notscience I don't understand why giving Not mafia space is important to start reading him and I don't like that he didn't try to read me or my push in any way.

Vote: notscience

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Not_Mafia

Was a fun thought while it lasted. Don't think notscience is out of scum range but do like what he's posted so far.

i've fallen for the not maf policy yeet too many times

If Not_Mafia flips scum (which is looking more and more possible by the minute), then ^this^ is a potential partner.

[Nachomamma8]

p-edit: if some of these questions aren't being asked in good faith (i.e. trying to use them to bait reactions rather than meaning them in earnest then fair enough, but otherwise I don't really see what makes his viability so temporally dependent)

I don't know what you're responding to here, nor do I know what you're trying to say here.

What's the advantage of dealing with Not_Mafia later as opposed to now?

[Nachomamma8]

- why are yoh assuming nm is gonna get flipped at all? Like you're preassuming we're for sure gonna flip him when i'm not sure that's the case
- unless he's like exactly scum and the whole scumteam decides to go and defend him, flipping nm is usually kinda a waste from an infoflip perspective cuz he usually has like no interactions
- kinda feels like you're willing to basically lose an easy point to maybe get an easy point but i feel like by actualky utilizing the day we can make a much stronger flip and actually have some more useful info going into the night instead 'meh might as well flip nm anyways and let scum do whatever'
- like you're kinda basically taking a cointoss that might have a good outcome and might not instead of actually trying to get something good and meaningful accomplished with the day
- arent u supposed to be, like, good at this?

Pedit yeah i dont know *why* he thinks that townie from salsa tho
Also salsa that was abt u

My experience is that Not Mafia tends to lurk a lot, doesn't tend to scumhunt nor contribute in a significant way to the point where he basically doesn't play the game. In a game like this with an absolutely massive scumteam I'm pretty confident that someone like him is going to end up as lynchbait. Do you disagree? What are your previous experiences with him?

I don't know where you're getting the impression that I'm trying to rush the day. Unless someone does something significant to change my mind, Not Mafia is my death candidate. I think that it's extremely unlikely town!Not-Mafia survives the game and I think it's extremely likely scum!Not_Mafia gets sacrificed, hence he's a priority to figure out. He can have all the time in the world for someone else to fuck up or for him to step it up in any way whatsoever, but see my experience above. I don't think it's going to happen.

Salsa accused Kismet of lying about not playing in a Perpetual MyLo setup before because Kismet was playing on an alt. That's a convoluted line of thought that I don't think that she comes up with if scum there - it tends to be quite hard for baddies to fake paranoia when they have all of the answers in front of them, and it would be extraordinarily impressive if she came up with the idea to fake paranoia there.

[Nachomamma8]

hard tunnels get potentially interesting in this kind of setup because scum are inclined to do them, win that day, and just peace out of the game the next day after the flip makes them look horrible

i think we should be insisting that people take a fairly breadth-first approach to the game.

I mean that's kinda what i was getting at wrt potential scum motivation here

~ i really should be signing, everything has been me thus far
Skitter

Do you really think that I'm angling to sacrifice myself in exchange for Not_Mafia's life...? Really?

[Nachomamma8]

Notsci please @ me when you're also townreading salsa

Wait, are you townreading me??
And when do

notscience

start to townread me???

My post directed to notscience was asking him to talk to me about you - I think you're projecting town pretty strongly at this point and I respect notscience a lot as a player so I expect him to share my read on you.

[Nachomamma8]

Because his team will sacrifice him the first opportunity they get. I know I would if scum!

Hmm I'm not sure I agree with this. If we can't read NM (notsci thinks he kinda can but less assume that for a sec) then they're always rand scum, and if our reads are any good then our best scumread should be >rand scum. The reason we can policy lim NM in a normal setup is that we can spend elims to narrow down the PoE, where we don't have that luxury here. Also, it's gonna be hard to get the votes to lim them unless they're town. So I'll only vote NM if the wagon on them is very towny.

As I've said before, I'm more than happy to move elsewhere if something better comes up.

I might have been a little more dramatic than necessary with the presentation of things yesterday which is why everyone apparently thinks the only think I will ever care about is Not_Mafia's day 1 death, but my point is that eliminating the weak link from the mafia team because mafia can sacrifice them would be a significant win. The person I see mafia as most likely to sacrifice is Not Mafia. As a result, he deserves extra scrutiny - I don't plan on letting him get past today unless he actually does something that looks town.

[Nachomamma8]

Anyway I’m not reading 8 pages. What’s happened so far?

mena claimed a guilty on you two pages ago

[Nachomamma8]

hey vft

if you had to vote someone right now and that would decide the elim for today, who would you vote?

~leaf

This seems like empty questioning to me.
Could you really not connect that skitter was scumreading me after skitter talked about their scumread on me?

[Nachomamma8]

Lilith has my favorite response to my push, notscience my least favorite. The scum motivation that Lilith presented makes more sense than what skitter did and it feels more like she's trying to figure me out whereas skitter it's more "what Nacho is doing is bad" versus "what Nacho is doing is likely to be coming from scum". With regards to notscience I don't understand why giving Not mafia space is important to start reading him and I don't like that he didn't try to read me or my push in any way.

Vote: notscience

I do think it's worth noting that 10 is the only post you'd made by the time noddy posted anything he did this game and I think to call what you'd done by that point a "push" is a bit much.

This is pedantic - what would you rather me call it instead?
I did something, I thought notscience would have an opinion on it.

Do you not think skitter was trying to figure you out? She was, at least, questioning you and hadn't made up her mind yet.

This post (specifically, the notsci part) feels less nuanced than it should be for some unknown definition of should

Skitter's stance is logical enough, but I don't see where it translates to a scumread on me. I can see her asking me questions, but I can't see her read evolving when she does so. Jury's still out on that one.

Expecting nuance from a read based on one post is a bit silly.

Also nacho posting this much is prob +scum anyways

You drawn scum since you’ve been back yet?

The # of times that I post in a game have to do with a wide variety of factors. This doesn't have anything to do with my alignment most of the time.

I have drawn scum since I've been back. I got ripped away from it by life situations, but there was at least one glorious day of being scum and having fun.

[Nachomamma8]

just now realized skitter/lillith were the same hydra.
oops.

[Nachomamma8]

If Not_Mafia flips scum (which is looking more and more possible by the minute)

also he made one post at this point

how

~leaf

every time i say that it's because i get a townread elsewhere
it's gonna be a meme

[Nachomamma8]

good
Kismet
Salsabil Faria
Infinity 324

good?
notscience

bad
SirCakez
Leafeon and Glaceon (beeboy, Mistyx hydra)
Not_Mafia
Brave Heart Lion
Disaster Cartel (Menalque, Ydrasse hydra)
Venus Fly Trap (skitter30, lilith2013 hydra)
The Bulge

[Nachomamma8]

hey vft

if you had to vote someone right now and that would decide the elim for today, who would you vote?

~leaf

This seems like empty questioning to me.
Could you really not connect that skitter was scumreading me after skitter talked about their scumread on me?

it was for drawing associations because they mentioned thinking you/nm could be partners

~leaf

Read this post a couple of times and am still not sure what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: SirCakez

I don't believe his scumread on his disaster and I don't believe his scumread on me. I'll get into it later when I have more time.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm also done talking about the NM play. It's patently obvious to me that I won't be convincing a majority to go along with it, and I don't think that me getting more and more pissed as I attempt to explain myself on the same points over the next 20 pages is the best thing for thread health.

[Nachomamma8]

SirCakez:

Nacho reacted pretty much how I'd expect him to as scum here
town!Nacho would reach out before immediately diving for an attack I think

You don't get to play with nice Nacho after you drove me to wanting to gouge my eyeballs out with a McFlurry spoon in Popcorn Mafia. I will not be putting myself through that hell again, and if you want to play the same game that you played with us last time, I won't be only person having a bad time.

I'm hoping the oddball path that you took in order to arrive at scumreading me is faked so that I'm not again the unlucky recipient of a dumb Cakez tunnel, but either way, I want you to explain how your read on me evolved because what has made it into thread makes zero sense. You've talked about my play being weird or not understanding posts:

I think Nacho's play has been bizarre but I don't think this is in the realm of possiblity.

this post doesn't make any sense to me

The reads are similar but I can't reconcile Nacho's play so far this game with mine. Frankly I'm very surprised that our reads are so similar (I didn't notice this during my catchup) because when I read Nacho's posts they feel totally alien to me.

But there's nothing in your ISO that takes the leap from "Nacho is playing weird" to "Nacho is playing like scum". I'm not surprised that you'd try to keep the animosity directed towards me alive - there's enough anti-me sentiment floating around where I'm sure it feels like I can currently be mislynched whereas the longer you keep me alive the greater the chance you'd have to shoot me instead.

If you're town, though. What are you doing? If you also think that I am scum because you disagree with me on a game theory point, cool, join the rest. But just tell me that's why you're scumreading me; the way that the read unfolded instead looks like that you knew that there was a Nacho mislynch push going on that you wanted to join but put the read before the reasons.

Similar views on the game state usually indicate similar POV aka similar alignment

we completely disagree about SRs and who to elim though

So we have the same top townreads.

I am townreading notscience whereas you are not. You are scumreading him for being too passive. I scumread him initially for not being proactive in engaging me on something. The only other disagreement you could be referencing is centering around NM, which is still disagreeing with me on the theory point like everyone else. I get that you don't want to policy lynch him but that doesn't translate to a townread on him.

This is the same shit you do to me in pretty much every iteration where I am town and you are town which unfortunately means you might be town here! Again! You start out by scumreading me and fit reasons to the read afterwards. Those reasons turn out to be incorrect because - surprise surprise - you never gave a shit about them in the first place - but instead of taking the time to reassess you just keep chugging full speed ahead. If you are town. For the love of god. Stop.

In other news, let's look at that Disaster scumread, which is in and of itself a disaster!

Done reading. Disaster Cartel is AWFUL and I do not want to move my vote. Nacho is also just ??????? leaning towards scum. All of the hydras are not good actually.

Strong sentiment. The reasons he gives for the read is the propaganda piece found here. He accuses Mena of being scum because he said that he doesn't want to have a conversation about policying NM again after he went through JK9++ where he talked about being frustrated because no one was listening to him about policying NM.

CAKEZ - why is this scummy? how is it unusual to be frustrated to have a conversation that you just got done having in another game?

Next, Cakez calls Mena scum because him saying that he has one tenative townread means that "he has no development of reads", then strikes doubly hard at the notsci townread. I hate how Cakez is using Mena townreading notsci and me townreading notsci as ammo to attack us with, as if a townread on him is completely unacceptable but the only thing that he's brought up on notsci so far is that he's "too passive". I don't understand why Mena saying that he has one tenative townread on page 4 means that there's no development of reads, so

CAKEZ - why is mena announcing that he has one tenative townread in notsci proof for him having no development in his reads?

[Nachomamma8]

SirCakez:

Nacho reacted pretty much how I'd expect him to as scum here
town!Nacho would reach out before immediately diving for an attack I think

You don't get to play with nice Nacho after you drove me to wanting to gouge my eyeballs out with a McFlurry spoon in Popcorn Mafia. I will not be putting myself through that hell again, and if you want to play the same game that you played with us last time, I won't be only person having a bad time.

I'm hoping the oddball path that you took in order to arrive at scumreading me is faked so that I'm not again the unlucky recipient of a dumb Cakez tunnel, but either way, I want you to explain how your read on me evolved because what has made it into thread makes zero sense. You've talked about my play being weird or not understanding posts:

I think Nacho's play has been bizarre but I don't think this is in the realm of possiblity.

this post doesn't make any sense to me

The reads are similar but I can't reconcile Nacho's play so far this game with mine. Frankly I'm very surprised that our reads are so similar (I didn't notice this during my catchup) because when I read Nacho's posts they feel totally alien to me.

But there's nothing in your ISO that takes the leap from "Nacho is playing weird" to "Nacho is playing like scum". I'm not surprised that you'd try to keep the animosity directed towards me alive - there's enough anti-me sentiment floating around where I'm sure it feels like I can currently be mislynched whereas the longer you keep me alive the greater the chance you'd have to shoot me instead.

If you're town, though. What are you doing? If you also think that I am scum because you disagree with me on a game theory point, cool, join the rest. But just tell me that's why you're scumreading me; the way that the read unfolded instead looks like that you knew that there was a Nacho mislynch push going on that you wanted to join but put the read before the reasons.

Similar views on the game state usually indicate similar POV aka similar alignment

we completely disagree about SRs and who to elim though

So we have the same top townreads.

I am townreading notscience whereas you are not. You are scumreading him for being too passive. I scumread him initially for not being proactive in engaging me on something. The only other disagreement you could be referencing is centering around NM, which is still disagreeing with me on the theory point like everyone else. I get that you don't want to policy lynch him but that doesn't translate to a townread on him.

This is the same shit you do to me in pretty much every iteration where I am town and you are town which unfortunately means you might be town here! Again! You start out by scumreading me and fit reasons to the read afterwards. Those reasons turn out to be incorrect because - surprise surprise - you never gave a shit about them in the first place - but instead of taking the time to reassess you just keep chugging full speed ahead. If you are town. For the love of god. Stop.

In other news, let's look at that Disaster scumread, which is in and of itself a disaster!

Done reading. Disaster Cartel is AWFUL and I do not want to move my vote. Nacho is also just ??????? leaning towards scum. All of the hydras are not good actually.

Strong sentiment. The reasons he gives for the read is the propaganda piece found here. He accuses Mena of being scum because he said that he doesn't want to have a conversation about policying NM again after he went through JK9++ where he talked about being frustrated because no one was listening to him about policying NM.

CAKEZ - why is this scummy? how is it unusual to be frustrated to have a conversation that you just got done having in another game?

Next, Cakez calls Mena scum because him saying that he has one tenative townread means that "he has no development of reads", then strikes doubly hard at the notsci townread. I hate how Cakez is using Mena townreading notsci and me townreading notsci as ammo to attack us with, as if a townread on him is completely unacceptable but the only thing that he's brought up on notsci so far is that he's "too passive". I don't understand why Mena saying that he has one tenative townread on page 4 means that there's no development of reads, so

CAKEZ - why is mena announcing that he has one tenative townread in notsci proof for him having no development in his reads?

[Nachomamma8]

uhhh

idk exactly how to put it so not really?

it was in response to 101 if that helps

How does asking Venus who they'd kill help draw associatives after both heads expressed scumreads on me? Who are you helping draw associatives?

I just don't understand the point of your question - it's as if you asked me who I would policy if I could policy anyone that I wanted immediately after I made the post saying that I wanted to policy NM.

Dancing is no fun if you unvote me before I wake up.

I didn't feel strongly about the scumread when I poked you about it initially - it was more a worry I had when driving to work then something I expected to become a schoolyard fight. I liked the sourness of the response to me. I'm still waiting for the high-level scumhunting, though.

also i am glad to see that my partner did not play after telling me he would

~leaf

Isn't beeboy the one who just doesn't post as scum?

so i've been told yes

~leaf

This is a pretty ballsy post if this hydra is scum. My feeling is that Misty is less likely to draw attention to beeboy's absence if they are scum together.

Are these tiered or not?

Tiered, yes. In order, no.

And like yeh, no shit I haven’t tried reading u yet, hence why i was surprised to see skitt professing a TR on a v unknown quality in a game where there’s like, reasonable incentive for scum to TR each other

I don't love this.
Kismet has put more into the game than anyone else - calling them an "unknown quantity" is silly. If you had specific things from kismet that bothered you, I'd feel differently. Are you a player that's unable to make a read without having meta on someone?

don't think his reasoning is very thorough and seems to be fairly tailored towards not sticking out in thread state, plus some of his reactions (specifically @ DC) felt kinda overblown

Solid observations - these are my thoughts exactly without the anger.

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t get what the value in spending an elim on a scum!NM is and I’m struggling to understand why anyone thinks this is the best play to make.

I don't get why you're still stuck on this to the extent that you are, but since my view on you is steadily changing from "stubborn" to "scummy", I'll play ball.

1) You and Skitter both keep pretending like all I am interested in today is policying Not Mafia or bust. This is patently false. In my entrance, I used stronger rhetoric then I would normally because we were in early RVS stage, and the stronger the rhetoric, the more likely you are to get some responses. Note how I told notscience that diamonds were formed under pressure, implying that I thought that me pushing NM might get an interesting response from him. Note my 59, which implied to skitter that I was being intentionally controversial. Peep me asking Infinity to address my push specifically or peep me analyzing how people responded to my push in order to inform my next push to notscience. I do think there is merit in townies thinking about the extra layer of strategy that the safehouse mechanic gives to the scumteam, and how it lends itself to weak scum players doing their best to lurk through one mislynch so they can be sacrificed. Do I think that this means that speedlynching NM is the most optimal move we can make? No. And if you were looking at my play as a whole instead of looking for things to hold against me, you might see that.

2) There are 5 players on the scumteam - let's name them and order them by most skilled scum player to the least: NachoMamma, NachoDaddy, NachoSister, NachoBrother, NachoDaughter. If the town plays perfectly, then they can stomp the three worst scumplayers and no matter how well NachoMamma and NachoDaddy play, town wins. Now, if the scumteam is given the chance to safehouse NachoDaughter, then town has to kill NachoDaddy to get their three points. If the scumteam safehouses NachoDaughter and NachoBrother then scumteam has to take down NachoMamma. My point was simply that I thought that NotMafia was hands down the worst scum player in this plist and so that any team that includes him would much rather sacrifice him, hence he's a great place to focus initially. I understand that it is an odd line of thought, but this is an odd setup.

like I said, reeeeeeally struggling to see why spending an elim on NM is more valuable than spending an elim on someone who we actually scumread.

Who is arguing that we need to elim NM over people we are actually scumreading? I'm not. And I haven't been for a while.

I mean if something better comes up I'm all for it

nacho trajectory on us: “lilith had good reaction to my push” —> we’re in his scumpool. ???? progression

My approach to this game is such that everyone is guilty until proven innocent. I am also more skeptical about townblocking players in this game simply because finding a small town core is so incredibly powerful. As a result, people can do things that I like but this doesn't necessarily mean they make their way out of the basement.

Your sparknotes are also inaccurate. I liked your reaction to the push, but I also was going back and forth with skitter on her reaction to my push. 223 is also a thing that exists, which means I had to process a push I liked and a push I didn't.

I also don't understand why this is such a sticking point for you - is it really that crazy to like one thing that a person did and not townread them as a result...?

re: opinion on Nacho, like I said I don’t understand how someone comes to the conclusion that NM is the most valuable elim we can make D1. I don’t buy that this is a genuine town thought process from nacho. I think it’s more likely that nacho is trying to sacrifice a buddy to an elim so that he gets to direct an NK than scum!nacho trying to miselim the LHF town!NM so that he can sacrifice someone on his team who is presumably more valuable to his team than NM is to town. why ever go after such LHF like that when you have to sacrifice a partner for it? ergo, scumbuddies.

You may not know me well, but if my goal was to get someone killed, ESPECIALLY someone such as the mayoral candidate of suicide town himself, then I would not attempt to policy lynch them from my first post. Such an action is absolutely bananas, and while I am an insane person, I'm not insane to the point of being stupid as your argument seems to imply.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry nacho, i was more interested in why that path of argument was chosen over others? Like trying to get into how I would decide those kills as scum that was one of my first thoughts.

Nacho and Cakez can dance

I don't understand what you're asking here. I as scum would sacrifice NM over other people because NM has the lowest floor of anyone here. If another scumpartner was struggling more or a strong townplayer got put within hammer range that might be a different story but otherwise I'd default to sacrificing NM.

in a game with as much scum as this, I'd expect to see a whole lot of ""Agenda"" right at the forefront of discussion, which is exactly what this NM talk feels like

idrk who else I'm vaguely shading there apart from nacho, I was drunk all yesterday evening and only lazily skimmed along, but I'll catch up later and get that figured out.

You're not shading anyone else but me, which is sort of par for the course. I'm interested in hearing what agenda that you thought that I had in trying to policy lynch NM - there are a lot of people who think my actions are weird or bad but no one has really put forward a plausible scum agenda for doing so.

if he's town, he's probably going to be flipbait, sure
but that also means that 'in a game with an absolutely massive scumteam' and he's town there's goign to be a lot of scum trying to drive us towards him, no? like why are you not just scum trying to get that easy flip ...
also in this setup it's not a sure thing that he needs to get flipped anyways as either alignmenet so i'm not sure why you're presenting this as inevitable. also i don't think he always gets misflipped as town

You'd think that if he was town there'd be a lot of scum trying to drive us towards him.
But instead, when I pushed for his death, there was Mena and no one else. Which seems to increase chances of there being scum in {me, Not_Mafia}, no?

I'm not scum trying to get the easy flip because I tried to policy lynch him from page one. I've been around long enough to realize that policy lynching doesn't typically work.

eh not so much that you were gonna escape per se so much as the hard-tunneling part

Why would I be inclined to hard tunnel as scum if I didn't plan on escaping afterwards? What advantage does it offer me?

[Nachomamma8]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85994 some salsa scum meta (do not read on sepia)

possibly not the only reason i linked that game just now you tell me

don't feel like i'd be able to meta her w/ any kind of confidence; and she played pretty well in this game only kinda just getting inched out of a win at the very end

i'm a little worried about the giant pass nacho is willing to give and i liked noddy's reaction to nacho's pushing it his way

I did read her entrance and compared it to her before I started advocating her shining light towniness. I think she's night and day here compared to there; she's inquisitive, she's a bit scattered without having an agenda attached, she's hilariously pure. I expected that notsci would be able to pick up on the same things that I am but apparently he's decided to enroll in the Cabd School of Reading Nacho (tm) and as a result is completely failing in reading me instead.

One of the big weaknesses that new scum players tend to have (and Salsa certainly had in the game you linked) is a difficulty in hiding their agenda. You'll notice a lot of her questions in that game were shallow (aka acting people to elaborate on reasons they didn't explain), she was careful was she expressed suspicion or explained her votes. She was also a heck of a lot more defensive in that game versus here (when she thought I suspected her, she called me paranoid and brushed it off vs there where she seemed to get indignant that someone was "shading her"). Here she's just carefree, more inquisitive, more likely to do things that don't have a clear scum agenda. Instead of just asking people to elaborate on random suspicions, seems like she's genuinely trying to understand the stuff going around her.

And while of course I'll be reanalyzing this read constantly, I'd be very very surprised to see this slot flip scum at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

(1) :rolleyes:

<snip>

These responses make sense, thanks for the clarification.

[Nachomamma8]

That's because of how long my catchup was. I read like 10 pages of posts in one go, so it wasn't like "hmm this is scummy" "hmm this is weird" it was like a whole bunch of posts that added up at once.

You're not responding to my point at all.

My point is just is that you kept pointing out things that were weird and not scummy. And you called them weird not scummy. Three weird posts doesn't normally equal a scumread so when did your read change from "what Nacho is doing is weird" to "what Nacho is doing is scummy"?

[Nachomamma8]

I would also love to hear thoughts on my point that I think scum are bus!disincentivised unless in a lot of trouble, and the fact that there seems to be no appetite for NM is therefore +scum

-Mena

I made that exact point in a post directed at skitter so. I agree with it.

[Nachomamma8]

My main hangup is I don't understand your obsession with elimming NM and I don't feel it like town!you at all.
I don't really see a path to elimming you right now anyways, but I am genuinely baffled by your early posts this game in a way that I wasn't in Popcorn.

How am I obsessing over an NM push? I brought it up. I explained reasons why. Why are my reasons for pushing him incorrect?

Like it drives me crazy when you go "ah this sucks" without even making a token effort to address my reasons for doing something - you jumped down my throat for Norfolk defense early last game when we weren't defending Norfolk and instead were pointing out that the people attacking him early for dumb reasons.

Also, why do you think that you can differentiate between the way town me pushes something and the way scum me pushes something when you can't find town me in the first place?

[Nachomamma8]

idgi how are those two things not the same? like the people who are most towny looking are surely also the ones you have the most doubts about being scum?

NM is a perfect example of why it's not, they will never look towny but you will always have doubts about whether they are scum

Nacho looks relatively towny from an Objective Standpoint^TM but I don't have that many doubts about him being scum

I don't understand the argument that you're making here.

You shouldn't be 100% confident someone is flipping scum before you flip them or you have ego issues. It is a more valuable skill to fight off a lynch on you then it is to lurk so much that people can't confidently write a case on you.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah I do. Basically if someone has a strong scumgame they can still be >rand scum on play whereas NM can't unless you're notsci I guess. This may just be something we fundamentally disagree on though

Should have kept reading.

Yes, this is a fundamental disagreement. I think people also value their scumreads more highly than they should - case in point, you scumreading me here.

[Nachomamma8]

My point is just is that you kept pointing out things that were weird and not scummy. And you called them weird not scummy. Three weird posts doesn't normally equal a scumread so when did your read change from "what Nacho is doing is weird" to "what Nacho is doing is scummy"?

Do you think this is scum-indicative (for cakez)?

I find that Cakez might take this approach as either alignment because, as I've talked about in thread several times now, he's done it before.

I think the more alignment indicative piece will be his responses when he decides to do something other than just straight up blow me off.

[Nachomamma8]

Somebody else already made this point.

Notscience brought up this point. Your response was that you didn't know my reads because you were skimming. That's not good enough for me.

[Nachomamma8]

(1) :rolleyes:

is this a rolleyes because you think you got a nonanswer here (the answer made sense to me)
or is it a rolleyes because you think you should be higher?

I think it was a rolleyes because I was kind of a jerk about it.

[Nachomamma8]

This would have come up whether or not Misty addressed it

Fair point.

[Nachomamma8]

This is a little concerning because it's the sort of thing I see from scum trying to show their fangs early to get someone to back off or put them off balance, and not a thing town do to try to figure out what the person attacking them actually is

I had a very similar interaction w/ muffin in a game a long time ago and he turned out to be scum for it.

that's not to say that that everyone plays the same here, but i don't get what you're trying to do here if town, especially since popcorn eventually ended in y'all mostly backing off each other.

Muffin also brings the fangs out when he's frustrated as town, or directs vitriol at people when they clearly aren't going to listen to them any other way.

If popcorn was the only time that Cakez clashed then it would be a different story, but it's not.

[Nachomamma8]

@nacho I'm having a hard time seeing which parts of your cakez read don't boil down to "I don't get cakez", or how you not getting cakez means he's scum in this context

The push Cakez made with the most scum intent was the one on me, which I talked about before. Whenever a townie is getting a lot of heat from those present in the thread and then a newcomer rolls around and goes "A-HA! You are scummy!" with reasons that are questionable at best, you can bet your left eye that I'm going to hold them to the fire from it.

[Nachomamma8]

Muffin also brings the fangs out when he's frustrated as town, or directs vitriol at people when they clearly aren't going to listen to them any other way.

this seems unrelated to what i'm talking about. i'm aware he gets mean for other reasons.

Then I guess I don't know what you're talking about!

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: DC

i am, at this point, sufficiently tweaked out by DC having a post count that is the size of mine with basically nothing worth a shit other than "notscience is posting so i guess he's town" and a whole bunch of n_m theorytalk in it

What are your current reads?

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't talked about beeboy's actual entrance but I hate it. It's possible I move there after work today if Cakez makes me feel something with his responses.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho i'm trying to believe but you're making it very hard

cakez came at you and you just aggressively postured at him in a way that doesn't make me confident you're trying to figure his alignment out.

If you don't see how my approach to Cakez will help me read him then I'm not really sure what to tell you other than if I do something you don't understand it does not make me a better scum candidate.

[Nachomamma8]

Mena what are your reads?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll find quotes for why I townread them, but I doubt scum!skitt would have this much happiness/drive to play mafia here.

This is a bad reason to townread a good scum player. Moods, and thus engagement, can change from day to day much less game to game.

[Nachomamma8]

this would work a lot better if you just said what you mean to say instead of expressing incredulity at every turn

How else would you like me to approach you here?

In this case, you accused me of posturing. To me, posturing is taking a position without backing it up and I don't think I'm doing that with Cakez but there's not really a way to refute that other then urging you to read my previous posts.

You're saying I'm not trying to figure his alignment out. Great. I am trying to figure his alignment out - how am I supposed to show that to you? Are the reasons for him being scum unreasonable? Does my push on him fail to outline a scum agenda?

You're saying some people react with fangs to throw people off pushing them. Cool. How would you like me to defend that? You don't know me and I don't know you - I'm not inclined to explain history with a particular player and I'm not inclined to explain my emotional state or why I approach things the way I do because, again, you don't know me and I don't know you. If you said "ah, your anger here is unreasonable because Cakez did nothing wrong" then it'd be a different story, but it's not.

[Nachomamma8]

If it’s unwnd and not bell it’s not as strong a townreads for me

Also I don’t really understand why bussing is disincentivized in this setup? But I just love to bus I think. But without a doubt scum flips every phase and we are going to have associatives to work on

It's not Bell.

[Nachomamma8]

That cat is adorable.

[Nachomamma8]

Bork, my goal with regards to Cakez is to get a confident read on him early and quickly so that I can get a confident read on him down the line. I am bullying him because being rude to Cakez seems to be the quickest way to get him to actually address things with me - whenever I reach out or play softball he tends to glaze over what I'm saying to him.

Every time we've played TvT he's scumread and tunneled me without exception, which progressively got more and more annoying until popcorn broke me. You didn't see the fallout of that in Warehouse 13 even though I was technically in that game because ffery did the entirety of the heavy medium and light lifting.

[Nachomamma8]

Mena if you touch a hair on Borks head I will run you into the ground tia

What are your reads?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure there's a good approach to this other than just letting it play out - my treatment of Cakez here is an anomaly in that it's not a way that I've approached someone as town in the past and hope never to approach someone as town in the future. It is something I use often as scum.

The only difference between this and when I use it as scum is the target - I generally leverage an approach like this when I'm trying to discredit someone who can read we well or I'm trying to mislynch someone who should never ever be mislynched.

[Nachomamma8]

Part of what was antagonizing me was that it felt you were expecting something meta wise but I had no idea who you were so no idea what you expected/what experience you had with me/etc.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho your tone is like just super super super off

This feels like something scum would say to look like frustrated town, the tone is just...not quite there.

You two are bad tonereaders.

Wrt Infinity am not surprised because he just seems to be stuck in tunnel mode.

Wrt skitter I'm still waiting for your scumread to evolve past its premise.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Leafeon and Glaceon

[Nachomamma8]

Wrt Infinity am not surprised because he just seems to be stuck in tunnel mode.

she*

Thanks for correcting, I'll get it right in the future >.>

[Nachomamma8]

TOWN
Kismet
Infinity

town
Salsa

town?
notscience

bad
Mom
Not Mafia
Disaster
SirCakez
Bulge

worse
L&G
VFT

[Nachomamma8]

Can you show me one instance of scum recently pushing a policy lynch? I haven't seen it in a while but I also haven't been active in a while so maybe my experience is a bit skewed.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho why are we so low in your reads

-Mena

You're not low on my reads, necessarily - you just haven't done anything in order to separate yourselves from the people around you. I know that we've had similar reads that doesn't really serve as good evidence for you being town when we don't have flips.

[Nachomamma8]

Did anyone besides nacho think I was tunneling him?

I like this post - comes a bit out of the blue and serves to add a bit more nuance to her push on me (which was already decently developed).

[Nachomamma8]

nacho i think the convo for later for us is vft because that is likely to be where we have the most difference of opinion so far. i need to reread skitter's posts from today before i commit to that read as it was like 7:30am when i did initially, but i was very much a fan and her content is not all just centered around you.

I look forward to this. I know that I owe a full explanation on my VFT read; currently feels like I'm the only person that doesn't think they are the towniest towns who ever towned which is causing me to dig my heels in a bit more than I'd like to but I'd like to get that read sorted out quick so I can determine whether I'm being dumb or not.

[Nachomamma8]

I think due to the nature of this setup read lists are bad for town.
Mainly because scum want to eliminate themselves and you'd basically be directing them who to get rid of.


Mind games ect ect.
Town motivation ect ect.
Are both valid arguments against this though as I've had this discussion a few times, I haven't spoke to Mist about this at all.

~Glaceon

I hate that beeboy's entrance so far has mostly been theory-crafring. I don't give a fuck what you think of the advantages that reads lists give scum. I don't really think beeboy does either.

[Nachomamma8]

420 and 422

I know these posts basically just agree with what Nacho said.
But I still town read it anyway, it feels like almost annoyed in a way?
Like "my read here is above average, I know its not perfect but that's good enough for me", like the way it's written just feels super town to me. As scum I feel like it would read more like someone who is simply just arguing semantics rather then what I am seeing here.

What does Mist think of your point here?

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t see how there’s any difference between the progressions nacho has had and my own

This defense seems intentionally obtuse (misses Kismet's original point pretty solidly) and also an odd response to being accused of not having progressions.

I don't understand what I have to do with any of this - if Mena thought Kismet's point was bad and he DID have solid progressions why not... just quote them...

[Nachomamma8]

This more comes down to my general mafia theory that people who are annoyed are > rand town while people who get mad are > rand scum. This is generally not always true so I never really explain this to people since there is 101 examples of mad town but honestly I find annoyed town is something that is relatively hard to find, and even then it sits on the line of someone who is mad. Which could come down to how I think people tend to react while trying to brainstorm vs trying to fool people. Idk, nor do I care about other peoples opinions on this because wording how I feel about the nuance of peoples emotions is incredibly hard.

I have zero understanding of the points that beeboy is trying to make here.

What value does this add the game? Is this really a townie who thinks that detailing the difference between annoyance and anger is useful or is it just a scum player who is struggling finding things to talk about?

[Nachomamma8]

Given that I can’t just be sheeping him bc of that, I find it weird that someone who’s coming to the game from a v similar viewpoint in many ways, he doesn’t see as town

Two pieces of my response here.

First, you'll find that no read that I make goes "I agree with his reads thus likelier to be town" nor "I disagree with his reads thus less likely to be town". I believe this just makes the confirmation bias problem worse - I don't know if my reads are right or wrong so for all I know I could be townreading the scumteam and trying to kill townies.

Second, this is an odd position for you to take with the "unknown quantity talk" about Kismet. I don't know what you're capable of scum or as town - I don't remember any games that we've played together so I don't have so much as a baseline for you. It will take me longer to form a solid read on you than it will for others, and, based on the conversation we had earlier, I'd expect you to understand that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm having a hard time articulating what I like about skitt beyond what I already have. Somehow I feel like her notsci read in 303 and her bork read in 479 would look different. She's also mindmelding with me on nacho

None of these are good reasons for VFT town.

[Nachomamma8]

this whole post is like trying to handwave away criticism while you yourself are acknowledging a few posts up that this isn't the way you typically play as town so like

My anger at Cakez is something that is one off and unique - the focus on it is misguided because it is something that is one off and unique. Whenever people do something outside of their range as a player it's pretty hard to then determine their alignment from it unless you know them intimately as people and neither bork or notsci know me that well.

I don't think your read on me has evolved. You've added to it over time with commenting vague thoughts on how my tone sucks or you hate my interactions with Cakez but there's nothing that shows nuance and there's not a point where it feels like you care what color that I flip.

[Nachomamma8]

this is kinda what i mean by 'icky' tone. tbf i wasn't in that game and don't know what beef you two have but this only makes sense as town to me if you have, like, some sort of major grudge against him to the point where you're still mad however many months later and his every post you just loathe and insta-scumread

which idk tbf i don't really know you either so for all i know this isn't abnormal but like from what i hear i'm having a hard time seeing you approach him that way as town

like here at least i dont' think he's done anything to deserve this level of animus so this whole post has this like prickly/aggressive edge which doesn't really match what's actually happened in this game, it looks like you're picking a fight almost and idk why.

You don't know me.
You don't know my play as town nor my play as scum.
You don't know my relationship with Cakez.

I am frustrated with Cakez in a way that I've never been frustrated with another player before - this is unusual for me. But just because you don't understand my emotions doesn't mean that they are bad or that I am scum.

You seem well aware in this paragraph that you don't have the experience with me where trying to hold these emotions make sense and yet you push me anyways - I think it is because you are scum.

[Nachomamma8]

right ... and i'm arguing that you're scum here
wrt the second line i'm not sure if you're trying to say 'i didn't try to get a policy flip on him (and that's something scum would do) so i'm not scum' or 'scum don't try to get policy flips and i did so i'm not scum'
but for the former it did read like you were trying to get a policy flip on him. with a whole lotta mechanical reasonign, sure, but that's fundmentally what it boiled down to
and for the latter scum try that all the time

Your point is that NM is lynch bait and I tried to get a lynch on him early - either to score a point or to kill a strong townie. My point is that this is a weak argument when policy lynches are uncommon and have a low % of success - there are reasons I would take that approach as scum to NM, but none of them would be because I was genuinely trying to lynch him.

The other point I am making is that I tried to push NM and the only person who backed me up was Mena, who has a history of doing so in JK9++ so is almost obligated to do so. If I am scum trying to get NM lynched, then I have four other people who could have backed me up but none of them did, which seems strange to me but maybe I'm the only one!

[Nachomamma8]

and i dont' see many other examples recently so fair enuf, you have a point in that it's not super common, but even so that doesn't make the push good
and i'm kinda more interested in the tone/cakez stuff now

And if this is the closest example that you can find then I think it proves my point.

I never said the push was good, but the idea that it was scummy because I was trying to kill lynchbait immediately/get my partner lynched so I can kill a scary townie is absurd; if I was genuinely trying to get NM killed as scum, my approach would be very different.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not confident in my ability to read cakez, but he feels pretty towny tbh

I'm starting to agree with this.

[Nachomamma8]

Thanks!

Mena is always concerned with how people read him and I think it might actually be towny

Why do you think this? As scum, it allows him to dig into what people don't like him and course correct - it also gives him a direct chance to change people's reads on him.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not so much talking about an agenda of "yeet N_M first" as I am one of steering the early discussion in an arguably futile direction, and in the process shooting down our momentum before we even take off. I like lilith's theory about scum willingly giving up their own biggest liability in return for a N1 kill, though nm's "I'll never go out first it's just the way it goes" bit rings true to me, and aside from that I've got nothing on the slot atm.

I don't think that my early game was steering the discussion in a futile direction; I'd argue that my early game set a pretty serious tone early which was a good building block for some of the other stuff that happened today.

[Nachomamma8]

and i quoted this post because... isn't it worse to flip nm based on policy as town than other town players who we would have to wagon? and i dont understand why we couldnt just kill him another day and why it has to be today

I've moved past this a while ago.
How does this question help you figure out my alignment?

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't played recently but this is almost always a meta thing and not an alignment thing. Unless someone specifically has a meta of being afraid or pro policy lynches as one alignment.
I don't find it's something people take advantage of so all my attempts at fact checking this end up being. "oh this person does this as both alignments."

I brought this up as a response to the argument that I was genuinely pushing to get NM lynched early - policy lynching is hilarious uncommon and never actually works and this is something I knew coming into this game.

[Nachomamma8]

Mena's approach of me is consistent to the one he had in the dance game where I was actually scum, although I efforted in that game like, not at all.... I really just wanted to pair with the IC then leave the dance so the circumstances were different but it's fine.

This is sketchy.

[Nachomamma8]

who is townbinning VFT?

Kismet and Cakez and a couple others.

[Nachomamma8]

Disaster. Infinity.

[Nachomamma8]

mostly what i resigned into the hydra for is that i forgot to say earlier that i kinda dislike that the only thing nacho responded to in my post i made about/to him earlier was to discuss the prevelency of policy flips, and that he kinda ignored the rest of it

Sometimes I check the game when I'm walking into work or waiting for someone to come back to the office or waiting for someone to finish with their credit card application. When I post during these times I don't address everything I want to at once.

[Nachomamma8]

a simple town/scum for each is fine

All town except for disaster which is more of an "I don't know" as opposed to "scum".

[Nachomamma8]

I'm having a hard time articulating what I like about skitt beyond what I already have. Somehow I feel like her notsci read in 303 and her bork read in 479 would look different. She's also mindmelding with me on nacho

None of these are good reasons for VFT town.

Why are they scum?

There is some stuff that I disliked that I talked about in responses to Kismet and responses to skitter. I'll probably talk about more stuff in my continued catch-up posts but if you wanted an isolated post on them that'll have to wait unt later.

[Nachomamma8]

Excuse me sir you owe me a wall

You owe me a townread

[Nachomamma8]

on phone but 744 745 aint doin it for me

Yeah I don't think you or notscience will be reading me correctly this game. Lessons for the future, I suppose.

[Nachomamma8]

real talk though, the majority of my reads are formed based on how well I can see and understand the other person's view, preferably that person's read on me, because I can pick apart what does make sense (I guess this is @ nacho too for "why is this read such a sticking point" etc etc). I don't mean to come off as like, self-centered but it's way easier to parse people's reads on me and why they are reasonable or unreasonable as town progressions. if I'm having a hard time following and understanding Nacho's reasons for his initial push of NM, his read on our slot, the kind of "agenda" that he's presenting to people for why he acts in certain ways, then I think he's way more likely to be scum based on my own experiences.

This is a great explanation, makes a lot of sense for the way that you've approached me this game.

The struggle that I'm currently having wrt your slot right now especially is that I definitely understand (and even like!) most of your pushes directed towards me whereas skitter feels more like she's trying to win an argument than divine an argument but others aren't seeing it the way that I do.

Thinking that I'm probably wrong about your slot too.

[Nachomamma8]

@beeboy I know you just said you don't like readslists but scum are gonna figure out who I SR anyway, and I think this is important

{bulge, DC, NM, mom, nacho, cakez}

this is ridiculously partnery as well

What do you think of Infinity separate from their interactions with Lawful & Good?

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you think i am incapable of coming around on you?

Not that you're incapable. Just feels like a game where I'm getting mislynched or will be fighting for my life the entire game.

Which is something I'm weirdly comfortable with, just hope you/notty will honor my reads vengeful popcorn style after you kill me.

[Nachomamma8]

INFINITY YOU TOO!
What do you think about the game so far?

What do you make of Nacho and cake going after low ballers right off the bat

Not a fan to your entrance so far.
There's a lot more to me then "going after low ballers" - there's a lot more to my NM push then "going after low ballers" and would be surprised if you as town attacked me without context in this way.

[Nachomamma8]

When I'm talking about scum longevity I am referring to players like myself or infinity who, if scum, would fade out as the game goes on and become increasingly obvious scum. Like after you explained your approach it does make more sense, but at the end of the day NachoMamma can still be down if NachoDaughter and NachoSon have awful interactions with them.

We do have completely different approaches as scum!

Which is why I have a scum game to speak of and you... don't....

[Nachomamma8]

Aren't you Mr. "Playing Scum is True Freedom"? I mean I do agree that how you are approaching Cakez feels like how you'd approach someone who was scum, but why not apply this in an instance to try and get someone to be more focused on winning over your favor than divining your alignment?

Again, you do something like that to someone you're planning a game around. Cakez isn't that someone.

I'm also not know for being a player who gets angry easily so if I decide to use that tactic in this game I'd want to make sure my position was sympathetic.

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t get how you got from the first to the second, wouldn’t chastising someone for not being good at tone reading imply you think they are town, yet they are in your lowest scumpool?

This is a silly point.
I'm not at a confidence level where I can't acknowledge the possibility of me being wrong on a scumread. I thought it was amusing that both Infinity and Skitter were attacking me for tone and wanted to address them together.

[Nachomamma8]

Wouldn't that literally be the exact reason scum would do it? That's some shit I would do as scum

Again, my point is that I wouldn't try to policy lynch NM as scum if I actually wanted him dead, not that I wouldn't try to policy lynch NM as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Hot take: Nacho is planning on dying d1 as scum and bussed all his buddies so they could ride the towncred

I feel like it's coming off I'm tunneling but I'm really looking more for townreads and havent really found a reason to townread him

When you mislynch me, just treat my reads as vengeful popcorn style.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho also can you talk about what led you up to voting L&G? i know you remarked that they had some empty questioning early, but it looked like 347 had a couple points where you were leaning the other way (?) and i'm not sure what happened between that and your vote.

Yeah, I'll get to this after catching up.

[Nachomamma8]

Like mine in popcorn were? >_>

You had the gun. You missed.
If I mislynched you you'd better bet I'd give you the decency of a vengeful popcorn shot.

[Nachomamma8]

The rules of vengeful popcorn is that I give you a numbered list and you follow that list until you hit town. Is that something you're willing to do for me if I'm town and you mislynch me here?

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah I picked the one person out of my four scumreads that was actually town, and then my reads were ignored and my (correct) call that duchess was godfather was ignored

But I don’t care to split hairs about past games. You are doing this fearmongering and I’m not buying what you’re selling

If you spent more time generating presence in popcorn and laying down groundwork for your reads you wouldn't have been ignored to the extent you were here.

You (and to a lesser extent Bork) will likely mislynch me even though you should know me better by now, and you will be responsible taking my voice out of the game. I'm asking for you to follow my reads after my death until they steer us wrong, which yes is absolutely something I'd do for you.

[Nachomamma8]

Like you dropped a read list and shot someone. You didn't say "Nacho, my reads are on point, follow them if we misshoot here because the rest are solid" - instead, your slot went "welp if I miss I'm lolling in the dead thread". This is much different.

[Nachomamma8]

Saying that I'm more interested in fearmongering as opposed to forming and explaining reads is also ridiculous - I have plenty of words this game and most of them are me interacting with people or figuring things out - some of them are me being angry at Cakez, which is an emotion and again is not bad or wrong or scum, and now some of them is frustration because this is a game where I've put a lot of effort in and feel like this is a game where I'm getting solid reads.

I don't feel this way in every game and so if you are the one to take me out of this game then I'm asking that you honor my legacy as a town player you respect and as someone you've seen blow up scumteams in the past. I don't think this is an unreasonable request and if you think it's a request that I wouldn't grant to you if I miynched you Day 1 then you don't know me well at all.

[Nachomamma8]

And going "meh Nacho just focus on reads" when you're here dropping Cobra Kai lines on me - no. If you push me then I will react to it - I'm not going to be reasonable on the way down and I'm not going to make the path to my death easy.

And especially when I've put this much effort into a town game you can bet your ass I'm going to take precautions to make sure that the only impact I have on this game isn't just giving scum one point - I will haunt the scumteam from the grave and the only way I'm doing that is through you and bork, for better or for worse.

[Nachomamma8]

I think The Bulge is town

if there's anything that bothers me about bulge is that he's very obviously been reading but he's chosen to only engage about one thing in particular and that thing is an unflipped association (infinity/l&g) which i'm worried the grounds aren't particularly solid on.

I realize he has Qs for me about infinity which i should responsibly reexamine my read while answering, but that will probably come tonight.

I agree with this concern.

[Nachomamma8]

Bulge do you have other reasons to scum read infinity outside the exchange she had with me?

~Glaceon

I missed this at first blush but I find beeboy reaching out to Bulge here to be kind of strange. I think being scum buddies makes you feel obligated to interact with people which results in interactions that wouldn't normally happen like the above.

[Nachomamma8]

If you are town and we are incorrectly pushing you, who is the scum capitalizing on it? You are townreading all your main pushers as far as I can tell

I thought the answer was VFT but I'm backing away there.

I think that most (if not all) scum are just letting townies put the work in for them - the suspicion around me that bothers me the most is stuff like Bulge and his agenda push and Mara attacking me for pushing low hanging fruit.

[Nachomamma8]

to be honest i wanted to be lazy and read beeboy off of activity because i was in that dance game he mentioned too and saw his inaction in action :>

I think that's a fine approach with regards to him. He hasn't posted much and what he has posted sucks. He is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

685 i think solidly clears that bar for me. NS might be the only player on site i'd be so confident in here, but i just continue not to worry about him, even if he's not been omnipresent.

Yeah. Don't think his scumgame has evolved to the point where he could fake something like his push on me..

[Nachomamma8]

Ya that's what i was getting at when i spoke about nacho's tone earlier - the level of anomosity and like annoyance doesnt really match anything cakez did here

(Also gonna reiterate that he ignored me pointing this out)

~ skitter

Pedit @bork

My animosity doesn't match what Cakez did there because it's not just this game.

Please don't accuse me of ignoring you simply because I don't have the time to address everything right then and there.

[Nachomamma8]

And wouldnt it be, like, smarter to just not join games together vs carrying a grudge and snap-reacting to getting scumread by someone who you clearly have some beef with?
(Like i avoided you lot for a bit till i got over it etc)

Does this really have anything to do with my alignment?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't disagree but I don't think this matters to what I'm saying. we can talk about intentions/expectations, and we can talk about what ended up going down. two different conversations.

It would seem like if you were trying to read me then intentions/expectations would be the important piece.

[Nachomamma8]

If you were scum who would you be playing around nacho?

You and bork.

[Nachomamma8]

Once I knew that he was bork.

[Nachomamma8]

TOWN
Kismet
Infinity
Notscience
SirCakez

town?
VFT
Salsa

bad
Not_Mafia
Disaster
Bulge

worse
L&G
Mom

Current popcorn is L&G --> Mom --> Bulge ---> Disaster ----> NM.

[Nachomamma8]

and i will now note that in recent pages, as general feeling towards sircakez has shifted more towards a townread, you're also rethinking that for ??? reasons

I think that the way that Cakez reacted to me - namely kind of doubting his push on me while also still pushing me and sort of defending my approach to him in a couple of places while still suspecting me - is nuance that Cakez is incapable of faking as scum currently.

I don't have anything against Cakez as a person - as a player, it bothers me when he pushes me and he pushes me and he pushes me without actually reading my responses to him. It goes beyond Popcorn Mafia. I don't really want to talk about it more than this - I don't think it's productive to figure out my alignment and I don't think it's good for game health for me to continue to talk about my frustrations with Cakez - done that enough already.

[Nachomamma8]

also what exactly is the difference between 'read evolving' and 'adding more parts to the read as more things happen'?
like you're dinging me for evolving the read when ... you continue to post things i don't like and i explain why i don't like them.
not really sure what you're expecting from me here

Yeah, there's not really a difference there.

You've been pushing me consistently from the outset of the game - I've been your top scumread from Page 1 to Page 30. Earlier when I felt there had to be scum pushing me your push was the only one that I disliked significantly and I felt my scumreads were too easy but I think it was more you fitting well in the "scum playing well" and "scum pushing me" roles then me actually finding you scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

so my current issue is that as far as i can tell this is drastically different from where you started like two hours ago and i don't know how/why this changed and most of your townreads are sort of following the general popular ones and everyone bad and below are gonna be easier pushes than the people at the top

The townreads that I added are Notscience + Cakez. Cakez I've already explained a bit, notscience just left his scumrange. I would have that read regardless of alignment.

The group of what's left is all pretty easy to push with the exception of you but while it would be gratifying if you were scum pushing me I don't think that's the case, partially because of Lilith and partially because of Bork making me feel like my read on you is more OMGUS than anything else.

I've been reanalyzing a lot this game. There aren't any reads that I've been weirdly tied to. I feel very confident in townreads. So while I don't necessarily have slam dunk reads now I feel, when y'all do get around to mislynching me, I will have a quality legacy to leave behind.

[Nachomamma8]

like yeah i see what you're saying and agree with u that cakez is more nuanced than i'd expect as scum but i have issues with the timing and progression of this
(and how i'm suddenly town and how you're now interacting with me)

Holding timing against me is silly. I wasn't around when Cakez did town shit. Part of the reasons why my progressions are as chaotic as they are is because I flip my reads pretty quickly naturally. Part of the reason is because I tend to go 24 hours between significant posting sessions but am still skimming and thinking about the game in the meantime.

[Nachomamma8]

When you mislynch me, just treat my reads as vengeful popcorn style.

why? you're fiip flopping all over the place (which is fine!) but i don't see a universe where you, being aware that you're doing that, also says "but also sheep this"

The end of my #828 addresses this.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, I just need Salsa to return and react to stuff so I can confirm or drop the townread on them and then I'm good.

[Nachomamma8]

A certain someone owes me a catch-up wall

I just caught up dear

[Nachomamma8]

i don't see a reasonable universe where he can push either me or you
he tried skitter and we didn't bite on it
he tried cakez - i'm not banking cakez yet but yeah

infinity is the only thing we need to re-eval but i still think town by play

notscience obvtowning himself was only a matter of time BUT he still looked town as shit in response to my push on him.
cakez started looking town in response to my push on him - don't see a world where he becomes this town if i hadn't.

skitter i didn't get to until later but i don't think you can blame me for that one when the entire game is pushing me for reasons that are not good

[Nachomamma8]

why are you townreading l&g what is wrong with you

[Nachomamma8]

holding vft to the same level as notsci and infinity is also silly - yes vft is town but those two left their scumranges a long long time ago and skitter hasn't done anything that absurdly town

[Nachomamma8]

it's literally in the post

it's bad reasoning.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm glad that we're all town together too.
I'm sad that y'all won't see it until you kill me.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm glad that we're all town together too.
I'm sad that y'all won't see it until you kill me.

don't know what to say man
as usual if i'm wrong you have the requisite mea culpa, and i'll own the bad read.

It's okay!
I'm still having fun, it's kind of fun getting mislynched over people like L&G. And Bulge. And Mom.

[Nachomamma8]

holding vft to the same level as notsci and infinity is also silly - yes vft is town but those two left their scumranges a long long time ago and skitter hasn't done anything that absurdly town

this post just seems designed to manipulate me. it serves no purpose other than to screw with me. you're basically saying "you're right, but you could be _super_ right and i'm gonna take this piss out of you for it"

the main purpose it's serving is that if this game is harder then it looks and you're reanalyzing infinity before vft you're doing something wrong.

every post i make after accepting a day 1 mislynch will also be tinged with a small undertone of spite but i don't feel that's unreasonable for someone in my unique position

[Nachomamma8]

Speaking of which...

POSSIBILITIES FOR SCUM PLAYERS WHO WILL BE SAFEHOUSED AFTER I AM MISLYNCHED, PART 1:

Leaf & Glaceon

nacho, can you talk me through your thought process on wanting to policy n_m?

~leaf

hey vft

if you had to vote someone right now and that would decide the elim for today, who would you vote?

~leaf

If I was creating a collage for questions that looked like they were being asked just for the sake of doing

something

, these two would be the centerpiece that I would build it around. While I was taking a sticking my neck out to generate information with the NM policy lynch, Leaf was sitting on the sides and asking questions that had no emotions behind them and whose answers would not help her figure out the game at all.

The question directed towards VFT is especially egregious since Lillith and Skitter both separately expressed scumreads on me and were voting me. Leaf tried to defend this as "hunting for associatives to see which one of NM/Nacho they wanted to kill first" but that still doesn't make sense to me and it shouldn't make sense to you either.

VOTE: sircakez

i didn't like the catchup

i don't think his reasoning is very thorough and seems to be fairly tailored towards not sticking out in thread state,

plus some of his reactions (specifically @ DC) felt kinda overblown

~leaf

The bolded is the piece that bothers me the most here. Mistyx is one of the most concise and not thorough players I ever met in my life so I can't really see a world where she as town cares that Cakez isn't being thorough enough. The "tailored towards not sticking out in thread state" piece just feels wrong as well, like those kids in college classes who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about but still want to hear their own voices and so they try to dress their points up with ten cent words.

Her explanation on this is like, the epitome of slime:

all of the reads you mentioned were slots that weren't likely to have a lot of discussion around them - you made reads on every slot except the two top wagons and the 0 poster

Leaf's argument is that Cakez didn't want people challenging his reads so he didn't give reads on the top two wagon, but the top two wagons were me and Not_Mafia and a zero poster. He gave a read on me that Leaf glazed over. No one expects anyone to give a read on Not_Mafia.

This is an example of Leaf fitting reasons to reads that she gives first, which is incidentally exactly what she did when we were partners together in Hedge Fund Mafia.

V/LA till 16th April due to health issue.

I'd be voting for this slot if it wasn't for this post ngl.
I find everything they are doing is just them existing and vibing rather than actually playing the game.

Which just reads like scum going through the motions waiting for something easy to grab onto.
I can elaborate in 4 days I guess.

Mom harasses me about going after low-hanging fruit, but this right here is the definition.

And we know beeboy is uncomfortable as scum. So, as a blast from the past, let's look at some examples of IIoA where beeboy talks fun mafia theory instead of scumhunting?

Spoiler: spoiled cuz there's a lot

if a head forgets to sign assume its me (bee/glaceon) because I am usually really bad at that.

re:Not Mafia talk from early pages. The only benefit to him as an early compromise option is as we get the flip for info and if he is scum he is almost always the first boot in terms of someone the scum team would want to get rid of. But if we simply vote out the scum players they can't free him from the prison known as a mafia game.

And to a super small degree, he is ever so slightly more likely to be town (6-5) so if he is town it would be kinda funny to see if he just gets cleared because scum never removes him from the game. So I guess it boils down to if we have more scum or town reads at the moment in time we want to end the day but letting him live is objectively the funnier approach.

- Glaceon

I think due to the nature of this setup read lists are bad for town.
Mainly because scum want to eliminate themselves and you'd basically be directing them who to get rid of.


Mind games ect ect.
Town motivation ect ect.
Are both valid arguments against this though as I've had this discussion a few times, I haven't spoke to Mist about this at all.

~Glaceon

(me expanding on my last post)

This more comes down to my general mafia theory that people who are annoyed are > rand town while people who get mad are > rand scum. This is generally not always true so I never really explain this to people since there is 101 examples of mad town but honestly I find annoyed town is something that is relatively hard to find, and even then it sits on the line of someone who is mad. Which could come down to how I think people tend to react while trying to brainstorm vs trying to fool people. Idk, nor do I care about other peoples opinions on this because wording how I feel about the nuance of peoples emotions is incredibly hard.

~Glaceon

This is interesting, it might speak to a difference between being annoyed but feeling justified in that and being annoyed (mad) but knowing you're wrong and you have to keep arguing because you're scum. I wonder if that's why I try to stick to things I believe even as scum, channeling that "mad" energy is hard for me

It's neat, people underestimate the nuances of how people like to post as each alignment.
Although who knows how good of a working method anything is when my only town reads are you and Kismet.

Can you show me one instance of scum recently pushing a policy lynch? I haven't seen it in a while but I also haven't been active in a while so maybe my experience is a bit skewed.

I haven't played recently but this is almost always a meta thing and not an alignment thing. Unless someone specifically has a meta of being afraid or pro policy lynches as one alignment.
I don't find it's something people take advantage of so all my attempts at fact checking this end up being. "oh this person does this as both alignments."

Which, coincidentally, is pretty much all that he's contributed this game! Bonus points for the last quote where beeboy interrupts a conversation that skitter and I were having in order to offer his opinion on policy lynches being personality things as opposed to alignment things, because THAT was useful.

rowing more confident on cakez, i hate how he's basically trying to just push past our scumread instead of like, talking against it

And I accused skitter of having static reads (he does, but it's okay because so does everyone else), but note how leaf is just continuing to push cakez for nebulous reasons while the thread as a whole is focused on other things. It's harder for scum to take positions and then abandon them for new ones (more stuff to fake, incidentally a reason why I'm incredulous I'm still getting mislynched after pushing half of the game), but I truly believe that Leaf as town (especially a leaf who is townreading me) would make more of an effort to get involved or understand what's actually happening as opposed to being happy hanging out on the edges of the thread.

okay nvm I started reading and my brain can't stop

I still think infinity/leafeon interactions feel weirdly weak. infinity's line of questioning on "do you post like this as scum" etc doesn't seem like it's really meant to go anywhere meaningful and ends with her soft-townreading leafeon. I don't see how misty's responses were particularly towny.

- lilith

hey wow I was just reading that part and thinking exactly the same thing

what do you two think about kismet's part in the interaction then?

~leaf

I know that I already commented on Leaf's weird questions, but like... what?
If town is being tied to someone who they are also townreading, do you really think that their response is "oh yeah but what about kismet"?

No.

But because I had emotions that people didn't understand I go out to pasture while this goes to safehouse.

[Nachomamma8]

POSSIBILITIES FOR SCUM PLAYERS WHO WILL BE SAFEHOUSED AFTER I AM MISLYNCHED, PART 1:

Momrangal

Was looking forward to playing with Town Momrangal after all this time. Today is not the day.

This is her replacing in as town, which shows her getting engaged with the game almost immediately via reading and offering takes and feeling free and easy versus here where that just flat out didn't happen.

Contrast with Mom scum where she just doesn't post - her entrance to that game included her yelling at the people pushing her and not much else.

As far as her actual in game ISO, there's not a whole lot but I can guarantee that she would have sank her teeth into the game a bit more than asking three times for recaps.

[Nachomamma8]

And I thought that I could move on but I can't. This is her ISO.

Ego, nice to see you too nacho. Not sure what the lion did but I would love a recap of what's happened!

He claimed Miller can you confirm that please?

Wtf? No, I'm not a Miller I'm a PGO

Long time no see

Mom/Braveheart is also #badslot btw

Great way to shit push this slot before I have the chance to do anything. Why are you resorting to this over actually engaging me on what's happened so far? I'm fresh eyes and ears, presumably you would want that

knowing

I can nab scum with notable accuracy.

Unless you have other motives to pushing me off to the side before I can make an impact on the game

You guys are all gonna make me read I guess, hmm?

that is typically what you do when you replace into a game, yes

But I'm here and I can talk!


Besides you all post fast af. Tell me what do you think about what's happened so far

INFINITY YOU TOO!
What do you think about the game so far?

What do you make of Nacho and cake going after low ballers right off the bat

hi mom. are you looking for a voice to genuinely catch you up and brainstorm with, or are you doing something else?

Por que no los dos?

Pedit: first NM and now me over the more active voices? It's kinda weird

Have I really played so badly this game where I deserve to go before this...?

[Nachomamma8]

POSSIBILITIES FOR SCUM PLAYERS WHO PROBABLY WILL BE AROUND AFTER I GET MISLYNCHED BUT IN THE MEANTIME ARE LOVING THIS DAY 1, PART 1:

The Bulge

I'm not so much talking about an agenda of "yeet N_M first" as I am one of steering the early discussion in an arguably futile direction, and in the process shooting down our momentum before we even take off. I like lilith's theory about scum willingly giving up their own biggest liability in return for a N1 kill, though nm's "I'll never go out first it's just the way it goes" bit rings true to me, and aside from that I've got nothing on the slot atm.

This is a weak point and I know that it's a weak point, but I don't see how VFT makes sense at all in the grouping (me, VFT, mena) that Bulge said was driving conversation in a futile direction, and I think that saying that me or Mena "killed thread momentum" can be argued but requires the darkest of filters. VFT was scumreading me for pushing the NM policy lynch because they thought I was trying to ram through a lynch early so I don't get where they fit into all of this.

a solid chunk of this game's discussion is going to be, by nature of the setup, either a heap of useless garbage, or actively harmful to the town.

And again also not a strong point but I don't understand why this game's setup means that everything either hurts town or is useless. I see where it lends to the story of "scum will be pushing an obvious agenda early" but I don't see why town!Bulge ended up here.

that whole exchange feels like a good example of the "pointless garbage" point i mentioned before. I have a hard time believing town in infinity's shoes would care at all about that line of questioning, and then to have that exchange flip her read from scum to town is wild to me

@beeboy I know you just said you don't like readslists but scum are gonna figure out who I SR anyway, and I think this is important

{bulge, DC, NM, mom, nacho, cakez}

this is ridiculously partnery as well

it reads to me like you wanted to post a readslist, but didn't want to risk shaking the house of cards you and the two of them had just built.

I don't believe Bulge's Infinity scumread. Pointing out that his line of questioning of Leaf and Glaceon was pointless and awkward is fine (even correct!) but spinning that to a Infinity scumread requires ignoring the rest of her body of work which I don't think happens if Bulge is town. Calling an Infinity-Leaf scumteam based on #530 for the reasons he states is ridiculous and I can more readily believe that he's trying to tie a scumbuddy to a townie than I can believe that this is an actual thought that went through his head.

Overall, Bulge experiences the same problems that L&G does - Bulge doesn't care about the pulse of this game. His observations seem more like college kids talking about Nietzsche while blazed out of their minds than it does about someone who cares about solving the game.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm probably too drunk to make another composed post at this point but

[Nachomamma8]

My not thinking it makes sense that I should be townread in general =/= I don’t think nacho shouldn’t be townreading me more and find it kinda weird he isn’t given that I’ve been on a similar trajectory to him but also, importantly, have gotten there on some things before him (like voting leafy). Given that I can’t just be sheeping him bc of that, I find it weird that someone who’s coming to the game from a v similar viewpoint in many ways, he doesn’t see as town

i don't like this from disaster cartel. i find it a frustrating experience as scum when i defend lynchbait (or don't push a townie who everyone is railing against) and they don't townread me back. this looks like this - i don't buy thst mena thinks we're gonna townread each other because we have similar reads

[Nachomamma8]

i also kinda like not mafia's snark directed towards me
and i don't yet think i was incorrect about salsa pre-V/LA.

which means that maybe something's wrong here in paradis island but i won't know whether to panic or not until salsa starts posting again

[Nachomamma8]

i also have used my amazing detective skills to gleam that ydrasse is someone who is super town when they're town

and they are not that here

[Nachomamma8]

also will be delivering notsci some homework

viewtopic.php?t=85985&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

this was me in my most recent scumgame. not a great example of what i'm capable of because life ended up kicking me in the teeth fairly early, but you can see how much fun i'm having in that game vs this one. you'll also notice that nacho as scum always makes sure that he's making friends even if he's attacking people whereas as town i'm just trying to figure shit out and that results me in divebombing a lot of people that end up hating me as a result hence this weird town where nacho!town is scumread early but townread late game vs nacho!scum who is townread early but scumread when POE actually closes in

[Nachomamma8]

and i've gone back and forth several times between being okay with dying and being frustrated by being killed because i look town as shit. and i know i've gone over the line a couple of times in my frustration because i'm just being spiteful at this point and it doesn't help my case but this is one of those games where it doesn't make sense to scumread me if you know me. this isn't my scum game.

[Nachomamma8]

I forgot the biggest reason for My hatred of hawaii's time zone

WHOS HERE

I'm still around. Do you have thoughts of any kind yet?

[Nachomamma8]

Don't I always?


And I'm sure you do have more than pushes against low ballers. That's a little flat and you aren't a flat person.

It doesn't take a whole lot to see there are a lot things floating around you

What are your thoughts on the game?

[Nachomamma8]

Like who do you have thoughts on so far? How much have you read?

[Nachomamma8]

I definitely don't like whatever it is that Mom is doing
Wanna help me wagon there?

My preference is Leafeon over Mom right now because Leafeon has been around for the entire game and done nothing (and beeboy is following his lukrfuck scum meta to a T), whereas Mom entry is so far not great but there's a greater chance she flips town here.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm so confused you just spent a bunch of posts calling them scum and I don't see where your mind changed

They are the slot most in need of reread at the moment, that's for sure.

What I didn't like about the slot is mainly Skitter's push against me; I thought that it was static and it felt more that she was just finding reasons to suspect me rather then figure me out.

But while I don't agree that scum would approach NM the way that I did if they were trying to kill him, I understand where she's coming from. I understand why she is squicked out over the way that I approached you.

So if I take a step back and take her push on me out of the equation, I did like Lilith's half of it (the idea that I'd be taking NM down for towncred/creating an anti-align makes more sense than me trying to mislynch him), and her explanation of being self-centered when trying to figure out people's alignments makes sense for why she's been so focused on me. I also agree with Kismet that skitter doesn't make the clique post directed towards notscience in this game as scum - it's a genuine opinion sure but I don't think that it offers her any value as scum whereas if she pisses notscience off it might rock the boat in a way that messes things up for her.

I don't remember anything they've done outside of push me though, hence probably should reread.

[Nachomamma8]

I would be pretty unhappy if anyone except nacho was limmed today

His cases aren't someone who believes players are scum, his mindset is "why me instead of these people who aren't doing anything"

No, this is tunnel vision reading part of my post and disregarding the rest. Beeboy has very clear meta that leads to him posting as town and not posting as scum. In this game he hasn't posted anything except for some random theory thoughts and the absolute scarcest of reads in other places.

Leaf has asked shallow questions that don't lead anywhere and are clearly just being asked for the sake of doing something - prime example of that is asking VFT who they wanted to lim after VFT voted me and talked about reasons why I might be scum.

This, in my very biased opinion, is a more solid scumcase then the one on me and a much smarter lynch than one on me.

[Nachomamma8]

high info flips imo are a better way to play this setup than pure PoE, although obviously there is a balance here to try to find the right amount of % likelihood to be scum and useful interactions

I still believe what i said earlier: the not_mafias of this game can be ignored for now.

find people likely to be scum for play.

the town people not posting desperately need to make themselves known. i don't want to go into d3 with nobody dead but lurkfucks, regardless of what the score is.

You only get a "high info flip" if you hit scum.

If you were scum here, I'd guarantee you'd be a hell of a lot happier with a D1 with Nacho (the most active player in the game) getting mislynched than you would if town mislynched L&G instead. When I die and flip town, the only information gained is that you really

don't

know how to read me.

You're correct that we should be killing someone with the highest chance of being scum, but you're not doing that with killing me.

I would argue that I have the widest townrange and the widest scumrange over anyone else in this playerlist and so am the hardest read to make - do you really think that I have a better chance of flipping scum over L&G who, again, includes beeboy which has the old notsci meta of "posting = town and lurking = scum"?

[Nachomamma8]

its why eliming hypothetical town!n_m day 1 is literally like the worst case scenario. scum just flips one of their own lurkers next and we're nowhere

And I addressed this in my last post but this is just not true at all.

[Nachomamma8]

No. It's entirely unacceptable for a rep in to have a bigger game state awareness compared to someone who's been here from go.

I don't really understand this. Who are you saying doesn't have good game state awareness and why?

And if you have good game state awareness to this point, where is it? I've skimmed a few of your town games since you've been back and you've become a sharp town player. This isn't that. Show me what you're capable of.

[Nachomamma8]

ahhhh

nacho, do you have anything you want me to look at/read over when i’m home later? or if we’re both online later we can talk then too?

i like... i still have the weird dissonance from before but i want to at least talk to you bc you’re putting in a fuckton of effort right now and after thinking... it doesn’t make sense to dislike your slot but like your reads i think? if that makes sense, like there’s something wrong but idk!!!

- ydra

I think L&G is pretty clearly scum at this point so I'd love some input on the reasons that I pointed out already.

If your slot is town then I'm pretty confident there's scum in Not_Mafia/Salsa/VFT, so I'd love some opinions on someone in that trio if you get the chance. I'm planning on working on reading through VFT right now so depending on when you're home that's probably what I'll be thinking about. I appreciate the reachout.

[Nachomamma8]

its why eliming hypothetical town!n_m day 1 is literally like the worst case scenario. scum just flips one of their own lurkers next and we're nowhere

And I addressed this in my last post but this is just not true at all.

Just no. This is frustrating as all hell - I don't believe that when ffery post my flip that one of your thoughts will be "WELP AT LEAST WE DIDN'T MISLYNCH NOT_MAFIA" and if it is then I have no nice words for you here.

[Nachomamma8]

off the top of my head i can tell you that there was one read i thought felt towny from l+g (actually from beeboy which like, with his meta surprised me that he was that... idk the word, intuitive maybe despite not being around?), and early on i felt a lot of my thoughts aligning with vft as well, alongside a lack of ~bad vibes~ i generally get which made me feel good townbinning them, but i’ll reread both

the other two though don’t have... a lot of content thought to them, nm theory talk mostly for him and tone for salsa but i can provide more when i actually read their isos since they’re small

it’ll be a few hours so whenever i am around tonight i’ll give Thoughts. i’d honestly feel really bad if you were town and like, idk, didn’t get to interact with some good faith? maybe i’m assuming too much abt everyone’s reads on you but yeah

- ydra

Salsa/NM I'm not expecting much on either, mostly just reading the people around them. I did like Salsa's entrance quite a bit for what it was but 30 pages later it's harder to justify holding her above people with a larger body of work.

Should be around for a while, don't really have any significant plans for today other than nursing a hangover.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually I feel like this is just another bork wagon in 2181

mmmm

???

[Nachomamma8]

@ydra Talk to mena about nacho for me

Nacho keeps posting stuff that pings me and I'm at the point where he's just always going to be my preferred elim for today so yeah

Oh if that's the case nacho is even more scummy here somehow

Yeah I also feel paranoid that everyone seems to have the same reads but townblocs are rough for scum to deal with, if nacho flips town I'll re-evaluate

I would be pretty unhappy if anyone except nacho was limmed today

His cases aren't someone who believes players are scum, his mindset is "why me instead of these people who aren't doing anything"

yeah you don't just get to sit on your hands and push me for the rest of the day
who are my partners? who am I bussing? who do you townread and why?

[Nachomamma8]

What's your rebuttal to my case on L&G?

[Nachomamma8]

I just...don't see your reasons for SRing mist. For example the kismet question made a lot of sense, after my interaction with her kismet came in and TRed both of us so it's reasonable to ask whether he's also scum with us or what. A bunch of your issues are wording issues which I don't agree are there. Looks to me like she's demotivated and latching on to the most salient things for her. The beeboy thing is fine, I thought his TR on me was pretty good but idk beeboy's meta enough to say whether his play so far is scummy for him (does he tend to post theory as scum? town? does he say absolutely nothing as scum, or poke his head in once in a while?)

Point taken on the kismet question.
Do you feel the same about the others that I highlighted?

None of my issues are wording issues so that's wrong. It's hypocritical for Mist to attack Cakez for not being thorough enough in reasoning when Mist isn't a player who is thorough with reasoning, like, ever. Her reasoning for saying that Cakez was trying to present uncontroversial reads was just bad - she said that he didn't give a read on me when yes he did and she dinged him for not giving a read on the Not_Mafia because he was a "top wagon" when she hadn't given a read on Not_Mafia herself which is also just bad.

Infinity feels really town to me.
Unless they are very good at faking being confused and struggling to articulate reads :V

~Glaceon

Why does this quote make L&G more likely to be town?

Beeboy's meta is that he posts far less as scum than he does town. I don't like him posting theory here because he's posting theory instead of engaging the game in any meaningful way whatsoever.

[Nachomamma8]

Honestly I'm not too interested in sorting L&G at this point

Trust me, I can tell.

This is what tunneling looks like. You're not giving my posts or my points a fair shake because you think that I am scum. You are ignoring what I am doing because you think that I am scum.

[Nachomamma8]

if we just do this early on and he's town and we flip him we just let scum jettison their weakest player, and if he's scum and we flip him we just lose our strongest player
(and honestly in most universes depending on who the scumteam is that's like ... my slot or yours)
so like

i mean true, but nacho's post had this 'ugh might as well just do it and get it over with' vibe which i think would just exacerbate/compound that problem, esp. given we're talking abt not mafia

actually i'm gonna vote VOTE: nacho

kismet have i played with u before?

~ skitter

I like Skitter's opening vote on me. I think I'd be an odd target for her to go after initially (and as scum I think she might be hesitant in pushing against the clique early), and not voting me immediately looks like a genuine thought process unfolding as in she pointed out something she disliked then decided to ramp it up to a vote after processing it.

tbh I'm kind of thinking scum!nacho is getting his buddy NM out of the way so that he can direct a nightkill onto a townie of his choice rather than only being able to kill a miselim-able townie during the day.

- lilith

Lilith's perspective here seemed like a genuine one. For me, this adds a bit of depth to skitter's initial push on me.

I actually think notsci has a halfway decent scumgame. At leasy the last one i played with him i was townreading him for a fair amt of it

Kismet i have two more guesses for you

Also nacho's last post was, uh, not very good

I agree with the infinity townreads too btw

Pedit interesting
~ skit

This post was in reaction to my initial notscience push.

I don't like that it was presented as vague dislike and that skitter didn't explain what she disliked about it - this was an opportunity for skitter to develop the push beyond "I don't like the NM push" and it was an example of me doing something outside of the NM push but she just didn't do it.

Its probably like infinity > kismet > mena > notci if i had to rank it

Skitter, is there a reason you were townreading mena other than him getting frustrated at NM policy lynch not falling through?
I also don't understand why his frustration makes him more likely to be town - I think that while as scum he wouldn't have the same sense of urgency to drive through the NM policy lynch (since he views it as a protown move) he would still be frustrated by people saying that policy lynching NM was dumb because they are attacking genuine thoughts that Mena has regardless of alignment.

I didn't really love lilith taking the conversation back to the NM policy lynch in 284 when we'd moved past it by then, especially when I don't think anyone had the thought process of "let's kill NM over someone we actually scumread" at that point. I'm less bothered by the "Nacho said he liked something about us but we're still in his scumpool" point then I was before (part because of lilith clarification post and part because Mena did the same thing), but it's still an odd perspective to take - don't think it's unreasonable at all for me to like one thing about a slot and then not end up with a townread on them.

re: opinion on Nacho, like I said I don’t understand how someone comes to the conclusion that NM is the most valuable elim we can make D1. I don’t buy that this is a genuine town thought process from nacho. I think it’s more likely that nacho is trying to sacrifice a buddy to an elim so that he gets to direct an NK than scum!nacho trying to miselim the LHF town!NM so that he can sacrifice someone on his team who is presumably more valuable to his team than NM is to town. why ever go after such LHF like that when you have to sacrifice a partner for it? ergo, scumbuddies.

And I don't like this in particular when it should have been clear that I wasn't only interested in lynching NM.

The infinity / leafeon interaction on like page 6 also felt really floppy

this is likely the extent of my contribution to the thread for the day.

@salsa hope you feel better

- lilith

I'd like to hear more about this. Why did it feel floppy? What are your reads on both? How does this affect your reads on them?

you're literally ignoring me, so you can stop pretending that you're trying to read me whatsoever. "waiting on Lilith to give town pings" okay well how exactly are you doing that if you're not even reading my posts, and in particular the parts of those posts that are addressed to you?

Liked the tone here.

314 which has skitter talking to Cakez seems like her genuinely trying to reach out to Cakez to me.

huh she actually has a wider range than i would have guessed, with decent tone + activity
but she's kinda trending towards short declaritive statements/questions and not as much like 'in the moment trying to sort out what she's thinking' if that makes sense. she's almost more definitive/assertive in this scumgame than in the towngame i saw her in.
i was kinda liking her before and still think beeboy's take is kinda bad and like the opposite from how she ought to be read but i'm not as confident as i was before

~ skitter

I liked this approach to salsa. Salsa is one of those who if town scum will almost certainly need to mislynch to win the game so I like making that path harder here.

Also what i saw of nacho's response to cakez felt bad. Nacho your tone is like just super super super off and that whole convo with cakez felt really weird on both ends, but you especially felt stilted/unnatural. There's something fucky going on in that pair. I'd bet good money on at least one scum, if not both. If i had to pick just one i'd say nacho tho cuz sircakez did have a few ok posts last night

Don't love this. I understand skitter's reasons for disliking us individually but there's no good reason there has to be one scum between in that if Cakez is getting suspicion when I flip town then I'll be more frustrated than I am now which is hard to imagine.

well, i mean, maybe don't have bad tone? i'm not really sure the problem is with me when two different people said the same thing now

I understand why you would be bothered by me in the way that you are. I kind of expected that we'd clash when playing together as town, so it's no surprise that we're clashing here. The tone piece is something that is unusual for me full stop, and I do believe that it is a mistake to go "your emotions are weird and I don't understand them, you are scum" basically 100% of the time which is what I feel is happening wrt people having problems with the way that I approached Cakez this game.

i wish me and mena were posting at the same time so that i can sort him

~ skitter

I like Skitter's general play around trying to sort mena and multiple attempts to pull mena into the thread.

that whole exchange feels like a good example of the "pointless garbage" point i mentioned before. I have a hard time believing town in infinity's shoes would care at all about that line of questioning, and then to have that exchange flip her read from scum to town is wild to me

yeah I think I agree

sorry I didn't mean to spout pointless garbage ._. I was just feeling FOMO for the exciting conversation about NM and wanted to give my two cents but it was like a million pages too late

real talk though, the majority of my reads are formed based on how well I can see and understand the other person's view, preferably that person's read on me, because I can pick apart what does make sense (I guess this is @ nacho too for "why is this read such a sticking point" etc etc). I don't mean to come off as like, self-centered but it's way easier to parse people's reads on me and why they are reasonable or unreasonable as town progressions. if I'm having a hard time following and understanding Nacho's reasons for his initial push of NM, his read on our slot, the kind of "agenda" that he's presenting to people for why he acts in certain ways, then I think he's way more likely to be scum based on my own experiences.

Liked this post a lot as I said before.

Skitter frustration in 814 is very good if faked as scum. As I've said a number of times before and will say a number of times in the future so that hopefully it sticks when I flip town, but it's really stupid to look at someone's emotion,

especially

when you don't know them, and say that because you don't understand the emotion it is scummy. Cakez didn't just tunnel me one time in Popcorn Mafia, he tunneled me in family and rogue one and others that I'm too lazy to dredge up now. My experience in Popcorn Mafia wrt Cakez was miserable because not only did I have to deal with him not reading up and basically making up reasons to scumread us, but I was also dealing with Tammy's frustration and anger while trying to bottle up my own. I have no grudge against Cakez, hence why I'm comfortable playing with him again, but because of Popcorn Mafia, whenever he tries to push me he's going to get a very aggressive response. This wouldn't be the case if I didn't have respect for him - doesn't bother me if someone's pushing me for dumb reasons and I don't give a shit about them but Cakez and I have played together often enough and Cakez is a good enough player where pushing me every. single. game. is something that I'm not putting up before.

And I understand when people who are unfamiliar with me push against me for using emotions in a manipulative way because I am not at all shy about expressing them in thread and I'm not shy doing things like asking people to give me time or telling people that they're making me frustrated or whatever. I understand why you think I shouldn't care about it because it's months in the past and no it's not something that I think about on a frequent basis and it's not something that bothers me on a macro level but Cakez should know by now that he tends to scumread me so everytime he comes charging in at me he will get horns. If bork or notsci end up pushing me in the next game we end up playing together with the same level of confidence their doing here they will get an amount of venom - doesn't mean I have anything against them and doesn't mean they won't have the right to push me, just means that I'm making sure that they learned something about me from mislynching me.

b) like i have a general vibe of what your towngame is supposed to be and true it's not firsthand but how you're interacting with sircakez here is not really fitting that paradigm.

This is just silly though and while it might have worked with Murdercat in the past this is something that will frequently let you down.

following the general popular ones and everyone bad and below are gonna be easier pushes than the people at the top

This is... unfair. The only reasons that your reads or bork's reads or notsci's reads don't look incredibly opportunistic is because they include me at the top. I do think that town has done a good job of finding each other this game and I think that scum has done a poor job worming their way in. This would make sense if you thought one of my townreads was wrong, but as far as I'm aware, you do not.

i'm gonna be honest i don't *think* nacho is trying to tilt you via ate but i think he may be trying to capitalize on your friendship (which i'm assuming you have to some extent from how you're talking? idk maybe i misread that bit) or at the very least on how you view his towngame and past shared games to get you to back off him via the whole 'let's do what we should have done in popcorn mafia and will you commit to sheeping my reads after i flip' thing
(and i already mentioned why i think that's bad in that he doesn't really have any reads strong enuf that would be worth sheeping like that just now anyways)

pedit yeah i already called out this his reads suddenly look like everyone else's >.>

~ skitter

I'm trying to capitalize on our friendship to get him to listen to me after I die.
If I was trying to get him to back off then I would have asked him to back off.

The vengeful plan in particular is one that I followed from a Team Mafia game a while back:

My personal death list is:

Sotty ---> Kagami ---> GreyICE ---> Zar.

Are you going to follow those names when I flip town, Grey?

These are my four names. If your post doesn't say "yes, I will follow those in order until one flips town", you shouldn't be posting. Give teammates time to catch up, you've chosen your lynch for the day.

This game I don't feel it's necessary, but I was feeling nice and melodramatic when I posted it, so...

[Nachomamma8]

I do think that VFT is likely town here; if they're scum, they're playing a fantastic game here. The only reason I think they need to be held outside of NS/Bork/Infinity/Cakez is because Skitter's scumgame from what I've heard is absolutely fantastic. Unlikely she's putting in a scummy-level performance here but being burnt out as scum recently doesn't mean that she's incapable of breaking out here - I've been pretty burnt out on town recently but here for whatever reason I feel engaged.

[Nachomamma8]

ok soooo you're basically telling me that you're so pissed off at sircakez for something that happened two months ago that you insta-scumread him and are aggressive abt it in a way that doesn't match anything he actually did here, in this game. and that that's a more likely explanation than you just deciding he was an easy place to push here and thus doing so - at a time in the game where iirc several other people were suspicious of him as well

And I am surprised you don't understand where I'm coming from here, at all.

Like if the game started and bork and notsci and I are instantly townread each other and scumread you and started pushing you, you're telling me it wouldn't piss you off just a bit?

[Nachomamma8]

I could get into my "how do I know how confident to be" thing but basically, it's more common that I have a correct early scumread but drop the read than I have a wrong SR and don't re-evaluate.

Letting scum that you caught early and having a wrong sr and failing to re-evaluate are both different sides of the same coin - just means that you are prioritizing the wrong information.

In this circumstance I know that I'm not blameless - I played up my desire for the NM lynch early more than I should because I thought it would generate discussion and I should have realized that my approach to Cakez would ping notsci and bork.

But I have put in the work to talk about what I think and why I think it. I think that my game play doesn't make sense as a whole for scum, especially since the prevailing idea seems to be that I'm just bussing the hell out of my team because it makes sense for me to post basically 200 times in a day and not advance my scum agenda at all. I think that notsci and bork should both know me well enough to know that this is not how my approach to the game looks at all if I'm scum here.

I don't deserve what I'm getting here.

[Nachomamma8]

I like Skitter's opening vote on me

i feel like you said the opposite in 118

I did not.

That's all you got out of that wall?

[Nachomamma8]

That's all you got out of that wall?

did i say that? it stuck out at me as inconsistent w/ your previous positions

you didn't say it, but i don't think it's an unfair assumption to make whenever i post a wall and someone reacts to exactly one thing.

i don't know why you'd care if it was consistent or not. the power of rereading is sometimes you see things in a different light than you do when you're just snap reacting to something.

[Nachomamma8]

also i basically don't know what you're even doing right now

i'm rereading vft and disaster.

what do you think that i should be doing right now?

[Nachomamma8]

you tried to push VFT and it didn't take.

You're not the first person to say this but it's not correct.

If I was scum here I would be pushing townies to die. People can disagree with me and I'd still push for townies to die because playing scum is all about cracking trust and breaking down townblocks. Like in Order of the Stick when I got edged out pretty harshly by a solid townblock I kept pushing at people like Wisdom even though it wasn't popular because you need to push mislynches to win as scum. Here ESPECIALLY I would only need to kill one townie in order to safehouse myself so I can guarantee that I would get that one townie lynched.

[Nachomamma8]

Probably bc I slept like an hour and a half from 11 until after midnight and have spent most of the night losing in teamfight tactics

Also because I literally, like actually literally had to have this argument in JK9++, let it go, we got shitwagoned for the trouble and then NM was scum all along

Do u see why this is frustrating to have to run through again? Im not getting why the setup is so different that it’s not worth it

-Mena

I think that Mena's early policy push on NM is as alignment-neutral as it gets. If he tried hard to do it in a recent game and someone else tries to do it here he's basically obligated to do it again. His frustration seems genuine, but I think that frustration would exist regardless of his alignment here as a sort of emotional residue from last game.

I wasn’t pissed at you I was just a bit frustrated that EVERYONE was shooting it down

bc I have no baseline or any idea of who it is and that inherently makes me slightly +sus unless it’s hectic (which it apparently isn’t)

I’m not SRing them, I just feel uneasy with the slot

-Mena

Seems like a strange callout from the perspective of "I want to work with skitter and skitter seems to be clearing someone too early for me". Mena later argues that this is a setup where scum are encouraged to townread each other but Mena wasn't scumreading skitter at this point and didn't really have a read or any input whatsoever on Kismet so doesn't really make sense from a town perspective.

VOTE: leafy and glacey

-Mena

Mena, why did you vote L&G here?
I do like the vote but am bothered by the vote immediately followed by talking about how scum won't want to bus this game. >.>

Seems hella convenient that you’re sussing me when I’m like the only one who hasn’t been happy to rubberstamp you as town, kismet!

-Mena

Don't love this post. Progression of this was "I don't really have a townread on Kismet but I'm not townreading him either" to pushing him and kicking him to lean scum here.

Skitt herself is like... I normally townbin her D1 but I’m not doing so here because of the weird ratio. I feel like she’s not particularly playing to an agenda, although her defending NM has been twigging me slightly as has her lack of paranoia on me and early town

Why were you leaning town on her in your readslist then?

My not thinking it makes sense that I should be townread in general =/= I don’t think nacho shouldn’t be townreading me more and find it kinda weird he isn’t given that I’ve been on a similar trajectory to him but also, importantly, have gotten there on some things before him (like voting leafy). Given that I can’t just be sheeping him bc of that, I find it weird that someone who’s coming to the game from a v similar viewpoint in many ways, he doesn’t see as town

Before #508 when Disaster asked why he was so low in my reads, the main thing he engaged with is the NM policy lynch, the L&G read, Kismet scumread, Notsci townread. I also engaged with NM policy lynch, the L&G read, the notsci townread, but I was townreading Kismet, I was pushing Cakez and VFT whereas Mena didn't have a lot to say about them. So yes we were on similar trajectories but I don't understand why Mena thought I should've been townreading him here as town but as scum can definitely see him trying to get a possible mislynch to townread him.

tbh I'm kind of thinking scum!nacho is getting his buddy NM out of the way so that he can direct a nightkill onto a townie of his choice rather than only being able to kill a miselim-able townie during the day.

- lilith

this is a very succinct version of my thoughts on nacho so far!! i didnt like how he was trying to like... pointfarm nm and i know nacho was saying like "if nm flips scum" etc etc but it felt like so far that nacho almost... knows nm will flip scum? there's confidence in how he posts about it and like, this plan is basically to try and farm up some towncred and then reaping the rewards after knowing that it'll probably be easy to do this? i dont think nm ever obvtowns in a game so it makes this more believable/easy to execute?

One thing that makes me doubt DC scum is the fact that they started out with the NM push then moved to L&G and then sort of drifts back to NM scum... If they are scum then there are posts like ^this^ which lends me to think that they are taking a pretty bus heavy approach.

i should be asleep but i skimmed, and i actually like 523/524, i feel like... that sort of read on infinity’s psyche is ablot harder to fake as scum than it is to talk about the contents of the reads themselves. at least i don’t think i would go down that path?

to be honest i wanted to be lazy and read beeboy off of activity because i was in that dance game he mentioned too and saw his inaction in action :>

- ydra

I agree that beeboy's take there is good but I don't think calling someone town for being annoyed is something that's particularly difficult to do as scum.

i have some thoughts about nacho mainly moreso than lg because lg gave me like... one good thing from them but i am also in a tft game right now so they'll come after

I don't really understand why you're scumreading me here. I first of all don't understand why you think that I was confident that Not_Mafia would flip scum (I don't think I gave that impression like at all?), and I understand disliking the policy push for NM thing but that's already been hashed out in thread multiple times. Do you not have an opinion on the rest of my play?

[Nachomamma8]

I think L&G are town so yeah

Also was I in order of the stick?

You were.

[Nachomamma8]

VFT has mainly been catching my attention in their relationship with nacho. my earliest impression of this was with 15, where I felt skitter was extrapolating a lot of discussion points out of nacho from one very brief post. this is arguably the post that really kicks the not_mafia discussion off in the direction it persisted (nacho's and kismet's earlier comments lack the same depth) so it's stuck with me in all my reading, especially with my theory in mind of scum taking advantage of their unique opportunity in this setup to take a near-majority control of the discussion. I had a gut feeling at first that this could be partner-indicative, but lilith taking a completely different approach in her assessment of the slot in 101 makes me think otherwise. Nacho had a good point in 211, the idea that he'd dedicate the entirety of his scumgame to yeeting not_mafia and then dip is ridiculous, and the response bottom of 303 doesn't make sense to me? Kismet's post was specifically about scum winning an all-in 1v1 and then self-yeeting to avoid any fallout. Why reach out (in 75) over such a superficial connection if skitter's only concern was about tunneling? nothing else stands out to me on its own, save a couple posts where I thought "huh weird", but nothing I think is ultimately alignment indicative, and overall their play isn't overtly townie but I think I feel alright about this slot.

Hmmm. I don't disagree with the things you point out here but they tend to trend more towards a scumread on VFT as opposed to a townread. Why are you townreading VFT? Is it simply because the things you talk about here are the only things that bother you about the slot and this isn't enough to equal a scumread?

[Nachomamma8]

Infinity

seems to be universally townread and I don't recall a reason given aside from meta, which I don't recall even being elaborated upon. nothing she's done has impressed me so if anyone is townreading her off the strength of her content in this game I would like to see some specific quotes and explanations pls, I feel like people are acting like it should just be obvious. One problem I have with infinity is how she assigns her reads. a lot of them read to me like she's already decided where on her list a slot would be best placed, and is justifying that after the fact. for example she calls nacho scummy in 99, but says she's a sucker for how he asked her directly about her read. shortly after, she says "someone scumpost", implying no scumreads. this example is early enough that on its own strength, I'd probably ignore it. but compare to posts like 229, 400, 532, 618. it's subtle, but I think 480 can help illustrate what Im saying even though I don't think it's necessarily a good example. it's like, how are you deciding the difference between what's Scum acting Townie, and what's Town being Scummy. obviously this is just a part of scumhunting, but it feels to me like infinity's process misses a step. most of the reasons she gives are "town/scum often do this" or "this person does this as town/scum", but it feels like she gets to decide when her own theory/meta statements actually apply. There's nothing tying the conclusions to the concessions madein those posts I linked, or explaining why those reasons didn't ultimately factor into the final read. she's given a couple excuses, mostly early on, as to why her reads might be off this game, and on top of all that, a few odd posts stand out to me on their own. 97 is weird because if she agrees with what kismet is saying, how is the comment about site meta at all relevant? 230 is also pointless, not to mention categorically false ("idk how scum think" is such a bizarre thing to say!!!). 454 is insane and has to be fake, what do you mean you don't believe skitter's mood would have changed since "just a few days ago"????? 645 looks like TMI on vft, how can you say "it doesn't look like that was correct"? yea not the scummiest slot in the whole world but it's super weird everyone is townbinning her, and she has been one of the slots giving me the most consistent pings.

I agree that Infinity is deciding reads first and then deciding after the fact (and has pretty shallow reasoning as a result) for the most part, but I think that has more to do with personality than alignment. You can see pretty easily from skimming her other games that she's a "gut first" type of player, but I'd expect you to realize this based on her posting style alone. Your attack on #99 is inaccurate - saying "someone scumpost" doesn't imply that you have 0 scumreads necessarily, just that you have too many townreads.

The other posts you call out individually are weird and or wrong but I don't think that any of them are alignment indicative. It's weird looking at this read next to the read on VFT - with VFT you're able to differentiate between "weird" and "scummy" while in this read you seem incapable of it.

[Nachomamma8]

Large / Grand The presentation of 109 is awkward; the wording is contrived as hell, and that it's not addressed to any specific head feels intentionally vague. at its core it feels like a question purely for scum info, like preparation for some kind of posturing. Mistyx's willingness to draw attention to beeboy's absence early on is easily WIFOM. she slips up in 221 pretty hard though, why would beeboy specify to his hydra partner that he'd actually play this game except after receiving a red PM? the slot's first move doesn't really come til 253, which is weak and feels opportunistic. 593 and anything in between shows no evolution of the cakez read at all, only arbitrarily stating it's growing stronger, but there is no effort to figure out the slot or engage meaningfully, they're just saying words. The associatives I'm seeing between this slot and infinity are strengthened by beeboy's 523, which talks about those 2 Infinity posts as if they directly pertain to the game rather than the general theory posts they are. beeboy's content is obviously all filler, blatantly avoiding any meaningful contact with the game, and mistyx's attitude towards him doesn't feel like town frustration at all.

Agree 100% - criticizing the VFT question and talking about the Cakez read and beeboy avoiding meaningful contact with the game is the core of my case against them.

I just don't understand why you're voting notscience and not these two.

[Nachomamma8]

Disaster Cartel is a huge concern for me because mena's early posts are riddled with weakass logic and fake emotion, and then he just dipped from the game. 151 acts like it's relevant to this game, when that entire huff about NM is, imo, nothing but mena taking advantage of recency bias to try to push an NM elim thru. He's managed to drag past AtE from completed games into this one to justify this early push (this becomes especially apparent by 161, though the whole push is dripping with this weird misplaced aggressive energy), and somehow you lot are letting it slide? 167 is a mind-bogglingly atrocious strategy, and absolute shit logic in a 5v7. I'm sure Mena is a better player than that. I think it was a perspective slip. overall, mena's posting feels slimey (for example, check the weakass shade thrown at kismet in 198), and ydra feels like she's had her hand held (probably by both town and scum tbh) up to the point of comfort she's at now. Need more from mena but I don't like basically anything this slot has proposed.

Don't love this case. Accusing Mena of using recency bias in order to push through an NM lynch instead of just assuming Mena is pushing through an NM policy lynch for the same reasons he did in a recent game is a case of mental gymnastics to reach the DC!scum goal. I don't disagree that the kismet shade sucks and I don't disagree that the rest of the stuff the slot did is uninspiring at best.

[Nachomamma8]

TO DO:
-read nacho v vft
-prompt for more hand-holding re:infinity UTR
-look closer at cakez's body of work, maybe compare to past games where I misread him


remind me to stop promising effort like that lol

think the best use of your time is just hanging around in thread more. if you are town and you can make yourself unlynchable then that might be the difference between a win and a loss whereas i don't think you'll get there by rereading past games where you misread cakez, although it is a nice thought.

[Nachomamma8]

ydra what are your thoughts on vft
what are your thoughts on me

[Nachomamma8]

the sheer amount of effort that he's putting in to me feels like he's trying his hardest as town? this is a dumb thing that i don't know how to explain well but he's trying and despite like, everyone and their mother saying "no, scum" he's still doing it and i don't get why he does this as scum?

appreciate the reach out regardless of alignment. it is absolutely frustrating to be universally scumread when trying as hard as i am currently. i'm going to work on letting that frustration getting into thread less because i think it's been a bit of a vicious cycle lately.

[Nachomamma8]

also tbh it's... kinda daunting for me to go through all that stuff and i feel like i'm too dumb sometimes to say a lot about these like, back and forths people have in a list like this lmao

- ydra

i don't really need you to dissect walls or big ol' back and forths

i'm just looking for stuff you have on these players like what's your previous experience with skitter/lilith does anything that they're doing jump out at you for any reason and why

[Nachomamma8]

yeah, i get that... i've definitely gotten really emotional before when i was town and no one was like... listening (despite me being RIGHT like, fairly early on only to be shut down for a while)

so even if you're scum like... win win, doubly so if you are town

what's your case for vft!scum, nacho, or do you still think they are? is it the push on you explicitly or what other things are included in there? i'm skimming over them because i cannot be fucked to like, quote and break down but they seem... like. reasonable. nothing really grabs me except the infinity scumread and i suppose them like... pairing cakez/you into this Thing but there's context i'm missing there i think, but that might be because that's the exact sort of thing i'd say if i was scum and have before, LMAO

- ydra

i don't think they are

i'm working on a readslist now but right now my strong reads are L&G, Mom, and Bulge scum with Kismet, Cakez, Infinity, and Notsci as strong town. If that's right then I have to find 2 scum in the following:

VFT
Salsa
Not Mafia
you

Right now I'm thinking that the two scum out of that group are you and Not_Mafia but if I'm wrong (as I'd like to believe right now) then that means A) I'm either wrong on one of VFT or Salsa or the scarier but harder to believe B) I'm wrong on one of Notkiscakestoinfinity

[Nachomamma8]

i agree that vibes wise lilith seems better than skitter but i think i might have personality clashes w/skitter

really i just wish they had more content that wasn't centered around me - i like the skitter reach out to mena in your slot but i'd like skitter analysis of mena instead. lilith has come to the thread and been reacting to old stuff most of the time so i understand why most of her focus was on me but i'm more interested in hearing her talk about stuff like L&G or Bulge or Mom.

[Nachomamma8]

i keep getting exciting to seeing you in a brand new avatar and i keep getting disappointed

[Nachomamma8]

Currently here.

Town [S-->W] Kismet, Notscience, [Gap], Cakez, Infinity, [Gap], VFT, [Big Gap], Salsa
Scum [S-->W] L&G, The Bulge, Mom [Gap], Not_Mafia, [Gap] Disaster

Kismet

: First of all, I think that Bork if scum here is much more reluctant to out than Bork as town. Bork as town has some high expectations to meet and while his scumgame is bad it's not good enough to rise above them so I don't think he'd put that burden on himself if he could avoid it and he most certainly could have here. He has some genuine excitement in working with people such as the reach out to skitter in 76 or the "I think we might all be town" in 117 that I don't think he'd think to fake as scum here. He has good nuance in his reads (example here) and he generally puts in genuine work to detangle arguments such as in 236 or his "at bat" theory for why he disagreed with the NM policy. These are things that can be faked in his scumgame but them happening this early and often is out of his range. The way that he sorts me - from range of emotions to reasoning - is simply not something that he's able to fake as scum - playing scum is emotionally taxing for him in general and so if he's pushing me with such sustained aggression (whiplash like 379 to 382, "I'm just trying to work with you here), then I need to drive over to him and buy him a pizza and a beer and get to know him better because he will be a completely changed person.

Notscience

: I believe that Notscience left his scum range a long time ago but it's not to the same scale of Bork. If notscience is scum here then he's playing the best game of his life but I'm expecting him to have a game like this eventually due to the strides he's made since I played with him last. That being said, I do think he'll get to the bork level given time and I do think there's a lot of great stuff in his ISO thus far. Posts like this one where he shows a decently high level of awareness of gamestate are +town but obviously still fakeable. I think the way that he operates around Bulge is very +town; from my experience, notscience as town gives good "walk softly but carry a big stick" vibes that he doesn't live up to as scum. His big wallpost in 685 vs me is something that is solidly outside of his scum range; I think notsci as scum would be very hesitant in going all out vs me in general but going all out and then arguing that I'm scum bussing all my buddies is something that's too ballsy for him. Stuff like the "what's my biggest weakness as town?" game here and using that answer in order to leverage the case against me is stuff that I just can't see him doing as scum and stuff like him backing off the read on me while still calling me scum - it's nuance to the push I don't think he's capable of yet.

SirCakez:

Cakez is someone who goes to blue immediately if L&G and Mom both flip red like I expect they will. SirCakez is L&G's main push and also someone Mom seems most interested in. I believe there's one scum max in my pushers (bork, notsci, Infinity, VFT) because I think that scum are hesitant for me to blow up their spot before I go down. I don't believe that L&G nor Mom are the bussing types in the first place and feel it would be an extremely strange strategy for both of them so try to kill him right off the bat - I expect their to be some bussing in this setup but the only circumstance where I could see both of them bussing Cakez in the way that they have is one where they're bussing and expecting to die early so Cakez can carry for the long haul which is kind of ridiculous. Cakez's opening looks like all Cakez openings tend to look to me but the spot where he differentiates himself is in his reaction to the main push on him - 337 is a far cry from Xeno!Cakez who did nothing wrong. I don't think Cakez backs off me period, much less starts to townread me with the amount of anti-Nacho sentiment in the air; Cakez has a good excuse to just stay on my wagon and ride it all the way home. He's attacked a wide berth of people early and seems uninterested in making friends, from me to DC to L&G. Playing devil's advocate here and taking my side in the way that he has when there's a strong wave against me is a highly unlikely approach for him as scum; don't think scum would want to do anything to derail my wagon at this point even if I don't think they're going to get super into pushing it.

Infinity:

Part of my read on Infinity is meta - I think as town she is more devil-may-care (best exemplified by her saying "gut is the reason for the read, everything else is back justification" here whereas as scum she takes more time to explain her positions and take reasonable positions. She's also uncomfortable pushing townies as scum as she talked about in this game and I think that her push on me is outside of her scumrange - not to the notsci and Bork levels because I don't know her as well - but would be p impressed if this is all fake, namely stuff like this where she questions her read on me mid-push or here where she talks about her early scumreads being good and not wanting to back off on one of them. Infinity goes to blue if Bulge flips scum - I don't think that he goes all out on chipping away at the townreads at her in any world at all. The way her townread on L&G unfolded seemed incredibly genuine even if I vehemently disagree with it - questions like this one show she's trying to figure out alignments and I don't really see worlds where she's either A) defending possible mislynch L&G when I doubt their mislynch pool is that large at this point or B) protecting her partner who is objectively playing badly.

Venus Fly Trap:

The big piece that resonates with me as solidly town from them is the frustration expressed by Skitter in 814; we'd been going back and forth for a while at this point and her talk with me around moving the goalposts specifically around my read on her felt quite genuine. I think that this criticism of notsci's towngame, while genuine, probably doesn't happen if skitter is scum here. I do feel their interactions calling out to Mena are pretty genuine and don't seem very partnery - was a concern of mine when I thought she was writing their slot off for bad reasons based on the frustration stuff but don't have that concern now. It's a bit of an odd read to make when I don't really know her/Mena's relationship, I do think that Mena as scum would probably be more engaged if skitter was his partner here. While I don't like that so much of her content is centered around me and would feel better about the slot if there was more stuff talking about why they don't like L&G or Bulge, I don't think that their play makes sense from a scum agenda; they need more mislynches than just me and unless they plan on going me --> N_M --> Salsa then I don't see a path to victory but if there are town in L&G, Bulge, Mom, then I'm back to being concerned about this slot.

Salsa:

I am very excited for Salsa to get back because I don't feel she will be a hard read at all, will just be nice to get some more information to confirm/deny those initial thoughts. The attack on Bork early here is that type of paranoid grasping of straws that basically never comes from scum (hence why I'm still townreading her here) - find that scum are usually pretty cautious in their early games especially so going that deep down the rabbit hole that early is ++town for me. This response to me was very calm and measured whereas as scum I expect she might try for a more indignant tone (based on her scumgame that Kismet linked). Also liked her "you can finally see my towniness!" here, disagree with bork that it was like his response to ffery - this is just a townie who's happy that she's being seen. Unfortunately, my more rational side points out that this just isn't enough posting to bank a strong townread on so I'm patiently waiting for more salsa posting before I go completely overboard with this one.

Disaster Cartel:

I'm at the point where I really hope that we're not in the position it's 2-2 and we have to find scum #5 but this would probably be the best bet. I didn't like Mena's early approach to me in 508 - the idea that I should have been townreading him because we had some similar reads and he voted L&G before me is an easy reason to townread me. I also don't like how he votes L&G - he votes them and then talks about how scum won't bus in this setup and is sure to point out that he voted them before me, as if he's trying to get townread for a correct vote. I don't like his approach to Kismet when Kismet suspects him - his argument that Kismet is scumreading him because he wasn't townreading Kismet here is strange (I could maaaybe understand if Mena was scumreading Kismet before this point, but he wasn't), and I think that his read not being affected at all by the bork reveal is unnatural. His reads overall aren't very well fleshed out despite him seeming to have a decent amount of time to flesh them out.

I like and appreciate ydra's approach to me and want to say that it's more than likely to be coming from town, but part of me thinks that the reason they are townreading me is simply because they feel bad for me regardless of alignment >.>. I don't really have any issues with their side of the hydra - I think Bulge's assessment that they feel like they've needed to be dragged into the thread most days is accurate but I don't think that's necessarily scummy although I do get the feeling once they get engaged they will be a hell of a lot easier to read.

Not_Mafia:

Nothing to say here really. Thinking he's scum simply by virtue of how many people are obviously town. Think he's still a prime candidate for getting safehoused early - notsci brought up a decent point that scumteam might try to use him to get away with more quickhammers but it's pretty hard to get notmafia to follow a plan as scum so I don't think that's happening to here.

Momrangal:

Like I said earlier, was pretty excited to play with Mom's town version but this just isn't it. She moves to indignant the second that Cakez starts to push her but her read on him doesn't move beyond "pushing low ballers" which she says often enough that it almost becomes a meme. She offers multiple times to talk with people to get engaged with the game but just... doesn't and am fairly confident she would have found something meaningful to contribute by now. Her interactions with me are very odd - asking infinity what she thinks about me going after low ballers and then saying that she knows I've done more than go after low ballers then doing nothing with it is just not a townie thought process at all.

The Bulge:

I don't believe Bulge's read on Infinity in the least bit. I think that the thrust of his read in the big wall focuses on things that are mainly just playstyle and I think that Bulge as town would recognize this. I hate that he's put the work that he is to tie Infinity to L&G and don't understand why this one bad townread equals them partners (especially in a game where L&G is likely to get flipped early and Infinity is... not) and I hate that he currently isn't voting either of them. Bork calling it "sterilized analysis" is right on the money - this is especially emphasized in his big wall when talking about someone like VFT where he points out a bunch of reasons he dislikes them or calls them town or his read on notsci which just reads as all sorts of uncomfortable. Also agree that the role he's played in the game so far is one as a distant observer - one of the reasons him basically not voting right now is that he has strong scumreads and he knows there are a lot of scum to catch but in no way does it feel like he's trying to get the mix of things or advance a town agenda; it just seems like he's working to survive until I get mislynched.

Leafeon & Glaceon

I understand that beeboy has been busy lately so him being gone is something that should be expected. I understand that beeboy is capable of posting as scum and capable of lurking as scum. But his preference for being scum is well-documented, and his hydra partner having to publicly drag beeboy into thread and then when he does get there him ending up waxing poetic about whether reads lists benefit town or scum more doesn't exactly scream "I got my preferred alignment" and people seeing otherwise is honestly baffling to me. Leaf's side has been just as bad, from asking someone who they would lim after they just talked about who they were scumreading here to a cakez push that is both shallow (yes I realize I agreed with it initially but I was deep in the Cakez-scum throes) and static.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: The Bulge

Been working long ass shifts and God hates me so I'm just going home so I can do it all again in a minute so will not be contributing today at all. Should have time tomorrow assuming a travesty of this magnitude doesn't happen again

[Nachomamma8]

Petapan's entry is delightful!

Come vote Bulge with me!

[Nachomamma8]

i mean of course you're gonna say that since he's defending you >:(

Yes. Yes I am. It is refreshing to have someone defending me for once because I am obviously town here and anyone who has glanced at my recent scum meta would know it.

I am looking for players who are flippable other than me. Because I am town and they are possibly not town. Because me in town for another day is much more advantageous to town then Bulge in town for another day regardless of his alignment at this point.

I maybe would not be playing so heavily for survival at this point if I haven't been public enemy #1 for the entirety of this game (and I don't think I've fucked up significantly!!! I've been weird but I'm a weird person but I don't think I've fucked up this game to deserve this level of heat!!!).

And yeah maybe he is scum who is defending me because I'd expect him to townread me here but that's okay. Because Petapan makes me happy. And if he makes me happy then I don't want to die trying to kill him even though yes. Figured people would dislike me moving my vote.

[Nachomamma8]

more familiar but i'm not seeing it on its own. looking at your reads the case is like: bad read on infinity, isn't voting(???), feels distant? am i getting that right?

Bulge solving usually comes in smaller bites but it feels better than this. Him taking all that time to make the biggest wall he's ever made but not placing a vote is a problem, absolutely - scum put in effort to look town where town put in effort to find scum and kill scum and also look town. I don't think his wall furthers a town agenda (as a whole doesn't feel like he tried to actually solve anything especially with stuff like the "nacho is the most important person to solve" without saying anything about me) - and putting all that effort in and not having a scum suspect you feel comfortable voting boggles my mind although maybe I weigh the importance of voting too much. I can absofuckinglutely see that wall in a world where Bulge wants to fool notscience, though.

[Nachomamma8]

If you are townreading this wagon of four you have to understand scum want no part in killing nacho which should tell you anyone trying to derail it is immediately sus.

Okay so hear me out.

1) Maybe the scum we are playing against aren't very good. Maybe they don't feel good finding a reason to get on my wagon without repeating stuff you four fine folk have already said and getting heat for it.

2) Maybe scum is just letting it happen because they're chuckling at the carnival of lunacy currently dancing its way through the thread.

[Nachomamma8]

you know what pisses me off nacho?

You have again failed to understand me - oftentimes I say things that are not literal. In this instance, yes, it's refreshing to be defended. I unvoted here because I don't think Petapan as scum replaced in and defends me like he is when everyone is continually attacking me and I don't think he pushes against notsci who is universally townread.

This means that my reads are wrong. I don't know where but I'll work on it when I have time again. Bulge and Mom are still great votes in the meantime.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean like

You’ve seen how I solve the game dude this is my textbook approach. Like I probably am being a bit too aggressive but it’s mostly due to the respect I have for your scumgame.

I’m going to eliminate nacho today. He flips green you and I can gladiate tomorrow. A gentleman’s agreement.

Notscience.

I love you. This is dumb. This is extremely dumb and a more realistic "biggest weakness as town" than what you came up with before.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Momrangal

Knew it was too good to be true wrt Cakez. Is okay.

[Nachomamma8]

Bork, I haven't really read in depth since my wall. I won't get the chance until fairly late tomorrow and knowing me that might push until Wednesday. Currently willing to kill any of Mom/Bulge/Not Mafia because I think peta's entrance looked pretty good.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Momrangal

Knew it was too good to be true wrt Cakez. Is okay.

?

There was a point where Cakez was correctly reading me but I see it didn't last. Is OK. Got all my aggression out there.

[Nachomamma8]

ok see if you can explain his townread on me, i'll wait

If it makes you feel better I'm working back to a scumread on you!

[Nachomamma8]

I'd like a chance to read through remaining pages before I get quickhammered please! There's a lot that happened; I want to process it.

[Nachomamma8]

Also want to see petapan's developed reads outside of me, want a chance to sync up if possible. I've always wanted the chance to vibe with him as town and unfortunately this pre-death version of me tends to be the best version of town I can bring to the table.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think more people talking about me is productive - it is clear that I am dying at this point in time, we've had 65 pages centered around me, I think I deserve a peaceful death at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

I know. And I appreciate you for it.

I'll have time for another hyperposting session when I make it home in like 2 and a half hours.

[Nachomamma8]

I got vaccinated on Tuesday and ended up sleeping through all of yesterday. I should be back late tonight after work if all goes well.

[Nachomamma8]

Tonight's gonna be rough but when I get home I'll give catching up my best shot (and will at least get a chunk done today).

Still interested in non-Nacho peta thoughts and very interested in seeing bulge follow up thoughts after his wall.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah I’m really mad about peta that’s my biggest mistake

was it though

[Nachomamma8]

Scum team played brilliantly from start to finish. Mena's endgame was displaying emotional range that many scum players are afraid to display (hence a bunch of ez town clears in the current meta), skitter and Lilith were fucking menaces to society, Peta played his part fantastically, and Not_Mafia ate me for breakfast. Was a game I was glad to be a part of.

[Nachomamma8]

I think daychat just makes games more enjoyable for scum period and will always advocate putting it in games. I agree that it pushes the setup to scum sided but don't think that's a bad thing. Kudos to baddies for pulling out the masterful win without it.