Mini Theme 2198: Animals Upick 2 [Game Over]

[jjh927]

I welcome any more info you might be able to give, Nancy

While we can't necessarily believe it at face value, if you're town then any info might bring us closer to the truth

[jjh927]

Pranked, it's actually my role
Just checking- you just got the one video, right?

[jjh927]

I think there were exactly 2 powerful roles on the town side- Mastina's role, and Mad Hatter's role. My role only got a guilty from some inventive gambitting and the fact that scum tried to NK me two nights in a row while Mastina protected me

Scum dayvig is almost incomprehensibly strong

[jjh927]

in fairness, the game was advertised as being swingy, so it's not a complaint really. it just sucked that we took a massive swing on Day 1.

hopefully there's not an award for worst scumteam performance

I haven't made the muckies yet but maybe one day

[jjh927]

I think it was Fuzzy's fault that Fuzzy died on day 1 because I caught him doing scum things and was absolutely convinced I had caught scum

This being said I would probably have been swayed if he'd claimed dayvig because that's how powerful a scum dayvig is

[jjh927]

I did actually ask for FL to target me at some point in D1- if you were particularly observant then you may have come to the conclusion that I was reflexive

The idea of gambitting only occurred to me during N1 when I figured the two options were that I got NKed or I got NKed and protected by someone, and then I gradually honed the idea for how I could gambit until I just came up with the vaguely plausible fake roleclaim in hope of finding a scum.

I realised S&M must have got the video when Nancy said something like "Did you send me something? I didn't get it" because that kind of misinterpretation of my claim wouldn't have occurred unless she actually got the video, so felt safe enough to assume S&M did the kill on N2- especially since if I was wrong then scum were hiding the video and therefore were suspicious of me anyway, so I had nothing to lose in that assumption

[jjh927]

oh, that should be N1 not N2 in the last block

[jjh927]

So, my first of two abilities is that I am informed.

This vital information is that there are NO badgers in the game. None. If the scumteam had this information, perhaps it would have saved them

This wasn't a joke btw we were actually informed this

[jjh927]

Oh, and in case nobody caught on to what I was doing at the end, I realised I was going pretty hard on getting BM to claim at the end and was a bit concerned he might figure out what I actually was, so I was trying to soft a flavourcop result to justify making him claim

[jjh927]

I think there were exactly 2 powerful roles on the town side- Mastina's role, and Mad Hatter's role. My role only got a guilty from some inventive gambitting and the fact that scum tried to NK me two nights in a row while Mastina protected me

Scum dayvig is almost incomprehensibly strong

I also ended up with a very powerful role once we got to 1 scum left in the game. Just never really got the chance to use it since the game ended

What was it?

[jjh927]

Yeah that is pretty strong

[jjh927]

Honestly, you tried too hard to kill me

[jjh927]

In the theme queue I am often far harder to kill than I have any right to be

[jjh927]

Wow, really? That's actually pretty surprising

Were they that scared of her saying she had a really strong power role?

[jjh927]

That means I was wrong to assume S&M got a badger video then

[jjh927]

Nah, rolecop doesn't take anyone out of the POE

[jjh927]

The real problem was that once you claimed a badger video, I figured town!you would have no reason to target me with either a rolecop or a cop and thus you were extremely likely to be scum, especially since if you'd targeted me with a rolecop you'd have realised what was up so it had to be the kill

[jjh927]

Why?

[jjh927]

Mastina townread Nancy though IIRC

I was probably the person most suspicious of her that was familiar with her meta

[jjh927]

Well, if you only tried to kill me once I guess that actually helps the statistics along a little

[jjh927]

The real statistic I like is the odds of bad things happening to scum that try to kill me and fail which is disconcertingly high

[jjh927]

Did anyone clue you in on what I was doing when you hit the dead thread?

[jjh927]

I suppose this day phase didn't last very long though lol

[jjh927]

Do people (particularly Korina) actually think I crossed the line in my interaction with Korina in day 1? I don't think there was anything particularly emotionally charged there, beyond possibly my rebuke of Korina's play in the game that earned Korina a spot on my blacklist (and for what it's worth I would have tried to uphold that if I'd been paying any attention to the playerlist)

Most of it was just identifying every assumption I could perceive

[jjh927]

Oh yeah, a town rolecop could definitely have targeted me

Just, he'd have to have actually targeted me with a rolecop ability for that

[jjh927]

In the situation we were in, if BM had hinted in some way that he knew about my gambit I'd have waited for someone else to claim the badgers rather than trying to force BM to claim immediately, since a rolecop that was either town or scum would have no reason to mention the badgers if they targeted me

However, I would definitely need an explanation as to why I was targeted if that happened when it came to that part of massclaim

[jjh927]

You and Alisae should start a club

[jjh927]

Korina-
I don't ever intend to attack anyone as a person and honestly I don't recall doing so on this site

It's all about how you play
And in terms of your play, I feel that you make assumptions and double down on them when those assumptions are called out, and I just can't respect that kind of play.

You need logic to appeal to me properly, and it needs to have a good basis and logical progression. For that, you need a good handle on both the specific game and the game in general, otherwise the logic doesn't check out.

That being said, I don't mind when people make points that are pretty much lacking the logical layer- that is, when they don't really attempt it, and they are just trying to reach the correct conclusions without too much thought in the inbetween steps. I think a lot of that comes from gut when people do that, and I can respect that to some extent. I think, as an example, that that's the way a lot of Wheme's reads went this game. While it's nicer if we can get the full logical path written out, I can't always do that myself so it would be unreasonable to expect everyone to always expand on these things. I have no issue with gut and use it a lot myself since I see a great deal of value in the human subconscious.

The thing that can frustrate me a bit is when people attempt to make points in the logical style which are just total misconceptions, which are very frequently mechanical in nature. So, an argument with a basis that is easily verifiable as false, or one which makes a questionable leap, or even a combination of both of those factors. When people do this I can either correct them or ignore them. Usually if someone doesn't respond too well to me correcting them, I'll ignore them, because that's where it becomes impossible for me to work with someone. If someone is using logic that is provably false, and refusing to reevaluate when I do the legwork to offer that proof, then I lose any reason to attempt to convince that person. I also have no reason to listen to an argument that is provably false, so we lose any reason to cooperate whatsoever.

I feel like you're often pretty confident on things that I quickly identify as verifiable inaccuracies, and when I've confronted you with them you double down and/or get frustrated with me, which is why we can't work together.

[jjh927]

Oh so it was the the pimple on the human Alisae's face and Alisae. Gotchu gotchu.

I just want to make it clear that Alisae made 2 posts and they were these:

i forgot i in'd into this game and almost forgot to post in it

i am going to continue to ignore the game goodbye

[jjh927]

Yeah, scum lost this game because their tentpole went down on D1 -> the 1-shot cop getting a guilty N1 -> one of the neutral utility roles gambiting into a guilty D3.

Without all three of those it was an intensely hard uphill battle but still theoretically winnable if you managed to off Raya pretty early.

I don't think the scum team played poorly, persay (with the exception of fuzzy not claiming I think you guys actually played a pretty solid game) but especially with role madness there's a big chance that the perfect storm of actions just flattens a team, and it didn't help that you lacked the motivation and synergy to weather that storm.

I will say I was super impressed by jj turning what was a largely useless role into a mechanical guilty.

I would probably have had to rethink the claim for the gambit somehow if you or someone of similar mechanical skill was in the game because lol randomised roles

[jjh927]

Although tbh my fakeclaim was pretty cool and I feel the nature of the randomness would actually have been passable

[jjh927]

No, I fakeclaimed as town. It was part of the play that guiltied BM, the third scum

Ngl if you're still incorrectly reading people in the post game you should really have a look at the assumptions you're making and why you are making them

[jjh927]

BM- I actually did say Reya was a neighborizer on Discord. Guess you were not paying attention.

JJ- I was not be scummy as much as being baity. I tend to be LB the first few days in a game but not so much as scum. I was having an off game.\\You were being hypocritical in how you targeting me as you were doing the same thing. Not saying that was bad or good
just mentioning it. I was hoping that I could convince town you were scum reading for bad reasons which you kind of were but it didn't work. All fair in love, war and mafia
BTw I have no ill feeling toward you game wise. I was kinda steamed you got me killed for bad reasons but its all good.

that brings me to my ban...I wil reconsider my ban on you and Alisea . I do not have any def answers for that as well.

I did not claim vig bc I thought I would be able to ride out the ss/wheme wagon on me. I overestimated the Mastina wagon. I also wanted to give myself option which claiming would limit.

Reya- I had a faint idea that you were not being totally upfront with me. I though maybe a cop but a jailer seem like a possibility as well.

Also Mastina was Mastina this game. Even if I was town I would of been hestitent to scum read her. Always like playing with her in a game


Also Jingle is banned indefinitely from my games......You know what you did

Thanks to the Xtom for steeping up when Krazy went missing/
Also thanks to Krazy for such an awesome game.

Darn, this throws me off. I didn't think there were actually people who thought there were wrong reasons to be caught if they got elimed as scum in day 1 purely on play

[jjh927]

The main thing that really tipped me off, TFL, was that I didn't feel you were actually trying to place me or anyone else based on my pushes. By the end of day 1, interactions with me amounted to a huge percentage of the usable content for placing most of the game, however you were more interested in who I had pushed and that statement of fact rather than looking into and interpreting how and why I had done it and what the outcomes were. You'd get a pass if it was just a little bit of content you'd glossed over, but you'd pretty much missed the context of every push in the game at that point- and that just isn't scumhunting or an accurate approximation of it. I felt that it was very clear that when you were reading the game, you were not doing so with the intention of placing people.

[jjh927]

Ooh pagetop

[jjh927]

That wagon didn't spew mastina as town at all fwiw

This is one of those things which comes about from mindlessly looking at wagons and treating VCA like it's actually meaningful


Have a look at when in the day the Mastina wagon formed and who was on it, and when they voted Mastina
Mastina wasn't actually a real wagon at the end of day 1

[jjh927]

That wagon didn't spew mastina as town at all fwiw

This is one of those things which comes about from mindlessly looking at wagons and treating VCA like it's actually meaningful


Have a look at when in the day the Mastina wagon formed and who was on it, and when they voted Mastina
Mastina wasn't actually a real wagon at the end of day 1

Hard disagree, the counterwagon to scum is far more often than not town, in like 85% of games I’ve been in/spectated. Especially when scum was a 1 shot dayvig,

Mastina wasn't a counterwagon to anyone

[jjh927]

A counterwagon is a wagon that springs up in response to another wagon. It's not just a wagon that happens to be competing with another one- but I would even argue that the Mastina wagon wasn't even a competing wagon. It just existed but didn't really have anything behind it, and it certainly didn't compete with the Fuzzy wagon in any meaningful sense.

The Mastina wagon peaked at 5 votes, or 4 if you consider the time when the Fuzzy wagon built up. All of these votes were cast at a much earlier part of the day phase and had nothing to do with the Fuzzy wagon.

All of the people who were voting Mastina were fairly inactive and very much passive players who hadn't really stated any reasoning for voting Mastina, and furthermore didn't seem to actually give a damn who ended up getting flipped at the end of the day phase.


The final exhibit for this piece is that everyone on both the Fuzzy wagon and the Mastina wagon were all town. Scum had literally nothing to do with the formation of either wagon.



In other words, anyone who said that Mastina was a counterwagon to scum and is therefore town would have been talking complete nonsense, because there is a complete absence of any of the things that would make it a counterwagon and a further absence of the things that make a counterwagon be town

[jjh927]

That's a completely different thing than what I was disagreeing with

If scum had piled on to Mastina, then yes, it would have been a counterwagon. Howvever, in terms of what happened in this game, it wasn't a counterwagon and there was basically no indication of Mastina's alignment from being a wagon

[jjh927]

Statistically, players are more likely to be town than scum