Mini 671 - Dwarf Fortress - Game Over!

[Pesco47]

/confirm

[Pesco47]

##Vote Tuberkulos

That sounds like a goblin name.

[Pesco47]

It's too early to be pulling pictures like those. But I don't think Ramus was being serious anyway with no follow-up FoS or vote.

[Pesco47]

Hang on right there, reborn. Just because a title says newbie, it means nothing and can not be used to justify a suspicious action. Are you also going to give me a free pass?

I could say you're scum because you're not a newb and pushing for faulty logic.

FoS reborn

, upgradable to a vote once Tuber clears up the OMGUS.

[Pesco47]

I want some thoughts behind Maritya's vote too.

My vote on Tuber is still from random voting. Need some more discussion before I confirm or move.

[Pesco47]

Unvote, FoS Timeater

This far in the game and lack of a serious post is looking rather anti-town to me.

[Pesco47]

Really. W.T.F.?!?

Lynch the both of you for being goblins (behaviour-wise) and all the dwarves are better off.

Actually looking at the arguments presented beyond the emo, Timeater is coming out scummier. I'm not giving Cyber a free pass either, because a cool-headed scum can just be playing it easy while you tangle yourself up some more.

Vote Timeater
FoS Cyber

[Pesco47]

Yes, I did mean that Cyber may be scum playing the voice of reason in my statement there.

There's still some unfinished business with Tuber it seems, so let's not pile on the votes too hurriedly.

@iLord: I signed up on Sally years ago, but only became active when I saw there's mafia there from your sig. I have some reserved opinions about the crowd there.

[Pesco47]

Yo,

@Pesco

Its is easy to vote for me isnt it? I had two votes (two of which are basically random) already, and had a little scruffle with Bob - out of the two of us you would rather vote who already has the votes, enabling an easy bandwagon. Nice.

I also agree with pesco on this one that Timeater is the scummier looking of the two in that last babble

How were any of my posts against Bob scummy? Would a scummer really stick out his neck like that, not back down, not let someone get away with blatant unprovoked personal attacks, not let a confusing post go unchecked?

FoS Coheed

for shameless bandwagoning.

Roffman voted you because you weren't being helpful to town. That's not a random vote.

All your posts before the fiasco with Cyber has nothing in terms of useful information, just fluffy cotton candy. Getting all worked up at Cyber's FoS indicated to me that you were being extremely jumpy for something that small. Instead of making him remove his FoS by actually giving good content, you made a huge distraction. These reactions make you scummy, failing that, a liability to town if you are innocent.

Lastly, I'm calling your WIFOM here. I'll take the wine in front of me.

[Pesco47]

Anyway I believe Ramus asked what makes me "not scummy" and Cyberbob "scummy". My opinion in this will be very subjective, but I guess thats to be expected.

I'm not scummy because:

My first 'real' post was a tiny scumtrap. I do this in about every game I play.
I was the first and only person to immediately scrutinize Cyberbob's shotgun attack post.
Subsequently defended myself from personal attacks, while having the gall not to let Cyberbob get the last word in.
Saved the town the time and effort by anticipating the wagon and claiming.
I'm trying to be helpful (when not being called dumb)

Cyberbob is scummy because:

In his first post, he managed to spin suspicion onto four people. Mariyta, Myself, Tuber, Reborn. That just doesn't sit well with me. Its safe for a scummer to make a one broad attack post he can refrence back to and claim scumhunting.
He refused to admit that one of his responses to me made absolutely zero sense "The point I'm making is that you were telling him that his method of ending random voting was faulty despite it more or less having been over for some time already." When confronted about this he got extremely defensive and resorted to personal attacks. (I'd like to admit that I attacked him personally too and called him an asshole, only after he called me an idiot 2x)
"Drop the tone and I'll drop the insults." - to me, that just speaks volumes.


I'm willing to forget about it for now, but seriously be careful about confronting Cyberbob on anything. Expect to be called names.

Indeed very subjective. Can we get something not so biased, because it's mostly "Give me a free pass, this is just me" kind of material I'm seeing here.


CoCam's vote while citing my reasons is also suspicious to me. When iLord pointed out that my own reasons for voting when given in my vote post, I realised I didn't actually say much about why I was voting. CoCam must be a real psychic if he could figure out my ideas which I hadn't put into words yet.

FoS CoCam

'm not blatantly fishing. I believe in game as flavor based as this that scum would need to have been given safe claims. However, if timeater's role matches my description of a cook, then i'd claim as well. That way, we'll have two cleared townies, making the game significantly harder than scum as they either have to waste night kills going through us and protective roles, or keep our votes active in a smaller pool of suspects.

Alternatively, he could claim differently to me, in which case one of us should be lynched, and you get yourselves a scum for the cost of a townie. Fair trade i think.

Stop trying to outguess the mod. The mod always wins.

[Pesco47]

I'm not blatantly fishing. I believe in game as flavor based as this that scum would need to have been given safe claims. However, if timeater's role matches my description of a cook, then i'd claim as well. That way, we'll have two cleared townies, making the game significantly harder than scum as they either have to waste night kills going through us and protective roles, or keep our votes active in a smaller pool of suspects.

Alternatively, he could claim differently to me, in which case one of us should be lynched, and you get yourselves a scum for the cost of a townie. Fair trade i think.

On a reread of this, Tim giving out the same claim as you does

NOT

clear the both of you as town. The only surety is that you have the exact same roles.

Some gaps I'd like to point out:
Tim and Roff are on both scum, a falsified confirmation.
Tim and Roff are opposite sides, Roff claims difference (since he's going second) and gambits on getting Tim lynched first.

FoS Roffman

[Pesco47]

It's hard to take that seriously when you said it during random voting.

But on another note here. You think CoCam is scum due to some reasoning and Roffman is scum because you say so. Which one is the better vote and why?

[Pesco47]

Number of posts does not equal content value. You haven't answered my question.

[Pesco47]

My reasons for voting given here.

[Pesco47]

Rereading from the very beginning again, this post actually sounds like Tim was voting Cyber because Cyber didn't find Roffman scummy (admitted as a ragevote here. I want clarification on why Tim has such tunnel vision against Roffman,

with no metagaming as reasons

.

I intended to pay closer attention to the Tuber discussion in my read, but the size of the flamewar proved too big for me to pick out much.

What I have noticed is that Tim and Tuber have been somewhat mutually defensive of each other. They read each other as pro-town and declare the same people scummy. Something is not quite right here.

[Pesco47]

You gave a pretty bad example to give us an impression by. The broadest definition of your latest post reads as 'No action can make a person scummy'.

iLord's logic is not perfect, but definitely not 'wrong'. He gave a generalised example of what made your recent moves scummy, while you defended by stating exceptions to the rule, very situational exceptions too.

The way you've defended yourself is pretty flailing-scummy to me.

Unvote, Vote CoCam

[Pesco47]

then lynch...

If there's a pro-town day-vig out there, please fire for this.

[Pesco47]

Being a thief that steals a role's equipment makes sense to me. Does the thief gain the stolen abilities?

But being a kobold certainly makes you anti-dwarves by flavour.

[Pesco47]

Since no-one here has babies

That would be awesome

[Pesco47]

Odd that Cyberbob should die and turn town.

It'd be more odd if he turned up scum. Why do you even need to post a line like this? Feling the same vibe as everyone before me on this one.

FoS Tim

RE: IL - I find his play too choreographed.

I feel that he's making all the right plays for a townie, doesn't clear him in any comfy way IMO. His speculation at being NK'd is probably the only bad thing he's done. Keeping an eye on him wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Pesco47]

Tim: You drive like a car without a steering wheel. There are obviously some players you don't like in this game (Bob, Roffman and me). If you genuinely have a case against someone, present the relevant facts. Just saying 'I think/say so' does not count as proof.

[Pesco47]

As far as I can remember right now (without rereading), Tim hardly answers any of the questions put his way.

I asked why Tim had a grudge against Roffman: unanswered
KoC asked for some explanation just above: unanswered
Roffman's role fishing: refused to answer, at least some reason was given.

If you intuitively think I'm scum, then something must have triggered that reaction in your subconscious. We'd like to know what it is.

[Pesco47]

And really - when have you needed full genuine proof to lynch someone? Are you saying its impossible to make a case against you without full proof? Are you saying that gut feeling and intuition are irrelevant? You'll be hard-pressed to find cases in mafia of absolute proof. Proof is not the basis of accusation.

Vote: Pesco

Pesco rubs me the wrong way and pings my scumdar, so he gets my vote - not much more to it than that. I dont really feel like being the convincer or town attack dog this game. I'm content to lay back and let iLord, Ramus or whoever do that in this one. I've really only got a problem with you and Pesco at the moment. Lashing out or focusing my efforts?

Lol, you're so condescending. I think that might have something to do with it. Listen, I really dont feel like heavily investing in every post in this game. I just dont want to play that way in this game. I'm currently playing a few other games where I am playing that role and I just dont want to put up with it here because a few people lack initiative.

We can't ever get absolute certainty in lynches before the flip, but that doesn't mean you can just throw reason out the window. I have my share of gut and intuition that I use, and to me, that kind of stuff is way too meta dependent to go applying in games on a big forum like mafiascum.

'Proof is not the basis of accusation' you say, are you confused or something? If someone has proof, they can make a solid accusation. If they have no proof, their case gets shot down.

You want to stick a vote this far into the game, people want to hear the reasons behind it. Here, you're just voting with no reasons given and further state that you don't feel like putting in any effort, let some other players do all the work.

Don't like my attitude? That's quite some irony coming from you. I'm willing to bet that there's more than a lynching majority that feels rather annoyed at how you're playing this game right now, be they town or scum.


Now for some more constructive discussion:

As for this apparent grudge claim you've invented, I have no grudge - just irritation and suspicion for him

[Roffman]

doing scummy things (eg "you're scum because you should be reading the thread" and "tell me your role bla bla role fishing".

I find it strange for you to have found Roffman irritating and suspicious before the game even got serious (i.e. during random voting).

I'm so intent on fishing on the particular role of cook. I have information that means it would be a relative safe claim for scum, and want to check that you aren't scum. The absolute worst case scenario is that we confirm each other, and town lynches us anyway to confirm the other. Then scum has to waste a night kill going through doctors/hiders/role blockers/trackers or have a confirmed town alive. Best case is that your claim conflicts with mine, and we lynch you cause your scum.

This one smells like WIFOM loaded crap. Reading into it as a bluff, I'd say that if Roffman is scum, he's got a safe-claim as a cook and hence the need to fish. This conclusion is a bit contradictory to the exchange between Roffman and Tim, where it seems that both of them do know what a cook does. In that case, I'm still a bit uncomfortable with accepting that 2 players can have the same role and be on the same side.

If it weren't for this, I'd have voted Tim again in agreeance with Sekinj. Roffman is doing more IioA compared to Tim's plain anti-town behaviour.

Vote Roffman

[Pesco47]

I'm just going to throw out my read on this whole cook-roleclaim.

When Roffman first said he wanted to be a lightning rod for NK, I felt it was WIFOM. Tim's reaction of saying he doesn't want to play that way, gave me the feel that they had abilities. My thoughts concluded that they were cops with sanity issues (multiple occurences of the same role on one side). This told me it would be WIFOM thrown at scum, I could accept that to be risky town play.

The problem now arises that they're claiming vanilla. Every team has vanillas, be they town, scum, cults, third party etc. Bob was also a vanilla, yet his role-title was animal trainer. One cook flipping vanilla is not going to clear anyone else.

[Pesco47]

That's quite interesting. Good townies prove themselves during the day by hunting scum, not asking o be lynched.

Moreover, why should scum target Tim over Roffman if they can both be confirmed vanilla and enter night together. There's some really bad logic going down here.

[Pesco47]

Timeater has just flipped town in DS9 mafia, a game I've been watching. As much as I dislike meta, I'm forced to admit that his play in these two games has been pretty much consistent, and therefore many of his scummy actions are based off of his playstyle.

...

If you didn't care for meta, why did you read that game and get convinced by it?

[Pesco47]

Meta is no justification for scummy actions.

FoS Reborn

[Pesco47]

Overall, the case against Pesco was a lot weaker than my vibes indicated.

So you were misguided. I can forgive you for that.

@ iLord: I'd like to know why you seem to be prepared to write off just about everything Tim has done? From a purely analytical view of his playstyle, it's not exactly the best thing to convince people with and you say that it hasn't harmed town. How has Tim made any benefit to town then? How do you keep reading him as town?

[Pesco47]

@Pesco: What has Tim done? No one else answer.

Nothing to town's benefit on Day 1, no original scum hunting on Day 2.

I've asked you some questions too, you should answer.

[Pesco47]

Could you please repeate your questions - I don't seem to be able to find them.

@ iLord: I'd like to know why you seem to be prepared to write off just about everything Tim has done? From a purely analytical view of his playstyle, it's not exactly the best thing to convince people with and you say that it hasn't harmed town. How has Tim made any benefit to town then? How do you keep reading him as town?

I've been very co-operative and answered your questions, now you do the same.

[Pesco47]

What are you being so undecided for? We're on Day 2, long past Day 1. Smells like scummy indecisiveness from someone who has been reading the thread.

[Pesco47]

@KoC - oh, and I just realized it was you who put him at L-1... but meh, any of us could have done it.

Is that a soft-claim for the hammer? Interesting to note also, that you weren't visibly on the votes for Roffman.

Although not much of a tell from the results of the NK, I'm suspecting Sekinj to be responsible for iLord's death (due to being the only one who tried to make a case against him, afraid of his scumdar perhaps?).

In all, I think Sekinj did the hammer or called the NK. I'm doubting the likelyhood of doing both because that places quite a lot of power in one player's hands.

Vote Sekinj

[Pesco47]

iLord cleared himself up when he realised that he had no case against me. I knew that as well, there was no need for me to defend against someone that wasn't seriously attacking me. He made a good analysis and came to the conclusion that he could admit, I let him go.

[Pesco47]

I let him go.

Is that a soft claim for saying that YOU nk'd him???

If that's how you want to twist it. When he made a whole bunch of speculations about getting NK'd and suspecting me, I ignored him. He presented his case and then backed down, I noted that and we moved on.

[Pesco47]

Pesco47: Do you think sekinj is a better lynch than KOC right now? Why?

It was a personal opinion that compelled me to vote Sekinj at the time, pretty much intuition based. The most outstanding point is where she calls iLord for 'Too Townie'.

Answering which one is the better lynch, I feel it needs not be restricted to just Sekinj or KoC. I feel Tim is also a valid lynch for today because his first post of the day is an OMGUS vote with no logic behind it whatsoever. Calling out soft-claims is fine, but they are not solid enough to be basing votes on.

Choosing between Sekinj and KoC, your reasons for suspecting KoC are only a bit better than mine for suspecting Sekinj. Our mileages vary.

Reading over Sekinj's reaction to my vote, I think she genuinely has no concern about it. There's not much we can do to each other based on the available posts, I'm prepared to leave this for another day.

==========

When CoCam was lynched, his role was in blue and also labeled 'not a threat'. The town's win condition is when all threats are eliminated. I conclude that all blue roles are pro-town, green represents either scum or third party.

[Pesco47]

KoC put the visible L-1 vote, what makes it absolutely certain that he put the hammer? I wouldn't necessarily call it a double voter, more like an invisible hammer-voter. L-2 just became the new L-1.

Can we all agree that Roffman wasn't town aligned then?

[Pesco47]

I think Green means town, and blue also means town. One of these colours means pro-town power role imo.

Are you going to flip green too?

[Pesco47]

My post was sarcasm. Anyone can answer by saying blue.

[Pesco47]

iLord -

Miner

- Was killed night 2

CoheedCambria -

Kobold Thief - not a threat

- Was lynched Day 1.

I am a thief. I can take roles away from players. Its an anti town power role in my opinion

Can we all agree that Roffman wasn't town aligned then?

I can't. What if he's just a power role?

Blue is definitely town aligned, guarantee of being a power is not certain. Therefore I'm very sure that green is third party of some sort.

[Pesco47]

The idea doesn't just get dropped on Day 3 with 4 town down and no scum dead. It is standard protocol to vote on the first person to claim.

So you want me to claim first and then you'll be justified for voting me?

[Pesco47]

I'm trying to do a PBPA on reborn, but I come across a bit of a problem.

He's made no posts of substance at all this entire game

along with being absent for long periods of time (lurking null tell, but it's still a strike against his current standing).

Explain yourself, link us to where you have done any good scumhunting. We're on the third day of play and for someone to have that much trouble coming up with scum suspects,

Unvote, Vote Reborn

[Pesco47]

Show us some proper scumhunting rather than asking for a massclaim.

[Pesco47]

If we're at LyLo, the mod would have told us.

Massclaim or not, do we even know what each role name does? If someone comes up with a roel you've never heard of and makes up some half-assed ability, who's to know if it's real?

Reborn still avoids my question of when was the first time he posted ANY REAL SCUMHUNTING. Don't give us quotes, I asked for links.

[Pesco47]

If there was a reql danger of LyLo, massclaim will just end up as mass misdirection. Mass scumhunting is still the best route to take, unless you're someone who hasn't done it at all this game and can't find the scum label on your own forehead.

What policy makes it so definite that we need to drop everything and start giving scum more info? I'd like Reborn to answer that without citing meta along with providing us links to proof of himself doing any scumhunting. Btw, real life is no excuse for being scum.

Wether or not LyLo Notification is given in mini themed games, that varies in every game. If we're unsure then we

ask the mod if it's LyLo right now

.

/*
* Who knows?
*/

If there is a majority on going for a massclaim, I can claim. I just don't see why we should have to claim when we can lynch obvscum.

[Pesco47]

Reborn: LyLo or not, we need to lynch scum instead of demanding for claims. You do no scunhunting and have made no contributions to clear yourself up or answer my question at you. This far in the game, you are clearly scum. You can't even present a credible case against me that you have to resort to insults. It's tough to find people to pin scummyness on when you are scum, so learn from this game and play better scum next time.

[Pesco47]

Vote: Pesco

for hopping wagons, desperately trying to avoid a mass claim, and being generally scummy.

Put some proof behind your words here. Moving my lone vote on you to Reborn is wagon hopping? Putting scumhunting as a higher priority than massclaim avoiding it? Being generally scummy by what measure?

Reborn still can't put out any proof of serious scumhunting on his part and doesn't answer my question from here.

==========


There's our massclaim. Who wants to claim Doc? Let's remember to have fun guys

[Pesco47]

Reborn: answer my questions first.

Sekinj: prove your case on me.

I'll claim if there are at least 4 people in favour of massclaim.

[Pesco47]

Don't wet your pants when I do.

[Pesco47]

PBPA

Anything else you haven't taken out of context yet? Looking for meta to justify a play style fails because it can't be proven. I've condemned using meta to clear a person and I've been true to what I say because I haven't used meta to call a person scummy either. I treat every player as a stranger and base my arguments on how they're playing in the relevant game. My widespread suspicion is because the remaining players haven't done enough to make themselves townie to my reads.

Onto my claim, I am Amost Othosstinthad, Weaponsmith. My ability will take us out of LyLo even if we lynch a townie today. Bring on the misrepresentation.

Let's have Reborn come clean with us. You wanted the claim, you have it. I've matched your bet and now I call your hand.

[Pesco47]

My ability is better than yours. That is all you need to know, since I still think you're scum fishing me.

[Pesco47]

WE'RE MASS CLAIMING

vote pesco

Lol. Honestly. Let's hear how someone changes from being a special to a vanilla all of a sudden.

[Pesco47]

Claus likes to give a lot of abilties, but some of them are quite weak and barely even count as a "power" role.

Let's use your meta-logic for a bit here. I find it very unlikely that there are so many vanilla ice-creams in this shop (Reborn, Roffman, Tim, Sekinj). You said it yourself that Claus likes to give abilities. 'Lynch all Liars' is a better policy to be using than 'IT'S LYLO! MASSCLAIM OR DIE TIME'.

[Pesco47]

Someone has to be lying for the inconsistency with the number of vanillas.

[Pesco47]

Explain yourself. You're wrong, but explain explicitly so it will be easier for me to show how wrong you are.

You're so epic. If I'm wrong and you think so, you're responsible for pointing it out because I'm quite certain that I'm not wrong about someone lying about being vanilla.

[Pesco47]

Got anything better than that to threaten me with?

[Pesco47]

I am Vabok Vabokzedot, a peasant. Vanilla townie, basically.
I don't believe reborn's claim at all, seems like he only used the threat of being a special to keep us from lynching him.

Wow, 5 vanilla. Isn't anyone strawberry, mint or choco-cuppacino, with whirls of caramel and sprinkled with hazelnuts flavoured? There are definite liars in the ranks of vanilla.

[Pesco47]

I didn't check the figures. I can prevent scum from winning tonight, even if a townie is lynched. That should be clearer.

[Pesco47]

Pesco hasn't claimed yet, despite being chosen to go second.

Compared to the number of vanillas that have popped up, my claim is a whole lot more comprehensive than anyone else's right now. The role-fisher himself just can't justify his vote on me when my power can do that much more to help town. Is anything short of posting my role PM not a proper claim for you? I don't feel like getting mod-killed for your convenience.

My ability does not stop someone from being lynched.

[Pesco47]

I'm not keen on making my ability too obvious until I am ready to come out with it. Let's just say that scum can't win until I die, that is what my ability can do.

[Pesco47]

Let's just say that scum can't win until I die, that is what my ability can do.

Wow, ok, awesome. Auto-town win if we don't lynch Pesco then?

We'd still have to lynch scum like any other normal game. Scum can't win =/= town can't lose.

[Pesco47]

Here we go again. Where and how am I wrong? Did you hack my account and read my role PM? Put some proof behind your weak cases.

[Pesco47]

Scum can't win still leaves them with an option of a draw. Town will still lose if scum outnumber everyone else sufficiently.

[Pesco47]

So you admit you were wrong then?

Your reading comprehension skills fail. Go fish more.

[Pesco47]

There should be a higher death count if I was SK.

[Pesco47]

Inhibitor survivor. Game ends when town wins, or scum outnumber town sufficiently. The best deal scum can now take is 'Happily Ever After'.

[Pesco47]

Inhibitor keeps the game going until a win condition has been fulfilled and I decide to end the game. In another site where me and Ramus play, we've seen mafia win enough times already the score there is 1-6 (should be 0-7). I'd like to win as town for a change.

[Pesco47]

Andersonw hasn't claimed.

What's wrong with drawing fire from scum?

FoS Andersonw

I've kept a neutral stance towards KoC. He's the one reacting to me.

[Pesco47]

I had things checked out with the mod, it's all fair game.

Now does anyone want a draw?

[Pesco47]

Tuber: I have no problem with what you want to present. I believe you're town and asking for my permission first means you want to make a deal? I'm willing to negotiate with you.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: The draw is just a result of everyone voting for a draw. Quick and easy.

[Pesco47]

Interesting but also not wrong.

Like I said, I'm willing to make a deal with you. I believe you enough to buy your claim. Hated townie is quite a problem for us in a potential LyLo if we haven't found any scum. Who are you reading as scummy? I do have a few hunches that we may be able to confirm.

[Pesco47]

The deal is that we work together to lynch scum. I trust you already, you don't fully trust me. That's fine with me for now.

I can agree that KoC is starting to appear scummy due to his flip-flopping lately. Tim makes good posts when he actually makes an effort, which would be great to see more of (he promised one to us I believed). I'm feeling pretty certain that Reborn is scum due to the amount of nonsense he's been spewing the entire game. If you want to call meta into it, he certainly posts more scumhunting when he's town.

And yeah, Andersonw hasn't been a team player for not claiming.

[Pesco47]

Weaponsmith I think refers to a profession in Dwarf Fortress.

Is posting good content something you are incapable of? Everyone is claiming a profession of some sort from Dwarf Fortress.

[Pesco47]

So you find Pesco scummy, but you're still willing to make a deal?

Where have I stated that I was willing to make a deal? I asked him what kind of deal he was talking about, and told him that I find you and him scummy. At the moment you are the most scummy looking person IMO.

Quite true. The offer is out in the open but not taken.

Interesting but also not wrong.

Hmm, are you soft-claiming something here?

We'll know exactly what by the end of the game won't we.

[Pesco47]

To sum my thoughts up: We must lynch Pesco (who is very likely scum), and KoC is scum.
Still thinking who the third scum could be, if there are three.

Let's look at the numbers again. If I'm third party and there's 3 scum, lynching me will give the game to scum.

The rest of your post is heavily laden with laundering.

[Pesco47]

Andersonw's claim strikes me as one full of holes.

1. The point of being a mason (role) is that you can communicate. Calling it a one way thing is very suspiscious. Still reading you as scum, you could just point at any townie and everything you claim would still be true. You can't communicate with them and they don't know you, a typical scum/townie relationship.

2. Unless you can point out your 'mason-buddy', this claim is perfectly viable as a scum claim to clear your partners. Confirmed players put more power in town's hands, which you are reluctant to do.

I'm calling laundering because you've done more in trying to get me lynched than what you are doing about KoC and yet don't move your vote. Naturally that's what you'd try and do when I'm such an obstacle to scum winning.

I'm listing Reborn and one of KoC or Andersonw as scum. My feeling on Andersonw is greater though.

[Pesco47]

A slightly different approach I'd like to try on the side.

@ Tim: Who do you think is town and why?

[Pesco47]

I'd obviously want to keep myself alive because you won't be lynching scum if I go down. It won't matter which scum we lynch, that's as far as that statement goes. I know that by keeping myself alive, scum has to work a lot harder to win. There's only one vote on me right now and I feel I'm in no danger of getting lynched at the moment.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: If you think we'll lynch a non-scum, a vanilla is more expendable than a power.

[Pesco47]

When you tell someone else to go first, it means that you are holding back. Just as bad as refusing to claim.

[Pesco47]

@ Andersonw: What's a better NK? A player that prevents scum from winning or a confirmed townie (most probably vanilla going by the claims)?

@ Sekinj: How are you determining Andersonw as your strongest town read?

[Pesco47]

I'll say it now: A KoC lynch should confirm whether or not Andersonw is lying. The one-way mason does sound a little better with the topic referenced, but does not necessarily mean that it's in the game nor does it make the mason a townie.

[Pesco47]

It's fine to WIFOM scum with such things.

[Pesco47]

he has just seems reasonable and balanced throughout most of the game. other people have had fits of fury, unexplained slips, or admit to being third party. I can't point you to a post or anything. it's vibes man, just vibes.

Noted, I'll ask nothing more of this.

1. Not necessarily, masons don't always have to communicate, that's just one part of a normal mason. And what do you mean by "point at any townie"? How do I know who's town (besides that one person, of course)?

2. Don't fish.
Confirmed players are perfect targets for NKs. Also, you said that I was reluctant to confirm someone and that "confirmed players put more power in town's hands", so does that mean that you believe whoever I said was innocent would be confirmed? (i.e. you slipped).

The questions here?

1. Scum know who is town. They have the one-way mason ability with respect to every townie.

2. Whoever you point to, I'll confirm to myself as being on the same side as you. Whether that's scum or town, a flip from a related party (you or KoC) should be good enough for a clear.

I'll be prepared to vote KoC once Tim and Ramus have posted. There's also the anony-hammer that I hope we haven't forgotten about. L-2 is as good as L-1 under these circumstances.

[Pesco47]

If we're voting the hammer-man, then it won't. His buddies might do it to stifle any last discussion.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: Actually it won't matter who has the hammer, they'd still do it to cut us off.

[Pesco47]

Here's my hammer.[/sarcasm]

It would be nice to have Tim post before we end the day, but I don't think he wants to join in by the looks of his activity.

[Pesco47]

Here's my hammer.[/sarcasm]

It would be nice to have Tim post before we end the day, but I don't think he wants to join in by the looks of his activity.

[Pesco47]

I was under the impression that your confirmed was Sekinj or Ramus. Calling Reborn your confirmed holds little weight now when you could have said so yesterday.

I'm also of the mind that there's 2 scum. We are in a real LyLo now, and I'm going to start off Massclaim Round 2. You guys don't need to join in, just find scum yourselves and all might end well.

I am third party. KoC was right yesterday, I am SK. I would prevent scum from winning if I managed to kill one. As I see the numbers, town loses in every scenario unless they can lynch scum, pretty obv isn't it.

There is the matter of missing NKs. I believe I've hit NK-immune godfather, roleblock or doc protection. If you can tell me some info on those night actions, I can catch out some liars.

This is my hand, town had better do some serious scumhunting now that you have my vote.

[Pesco47]

Do you find me scummy for my daytime actions or my claim?

[Pesco47]

1. Safeclaim before real claim. LyLo wasn't assured. The deal I really intended to offer was Prisoner's Gambit. We are already in that situation whether or not you like it.

2. My NK succeeded once, or at least the person I chose was the same as scum's NK. I won't say which night, because scum could just fake claim to fit in with my night actions.

If you'd also look back on Day 1 during CoCam's thief claim, I said his ability was plausible because I wielded a weapon that he could have stolen. Maybe he did steal my Masterwork Mace, thus I'm really a Survivor now.

3. Only I know my NK targets, I can catch out a fake doc or NK immunity claim. I can tell friend from foe, I never said you could. I also never promised to kill scum at night because my ability has been very unreliable. Town's best hope for winning is to lynch scum and hope I kill the other one. I'm already claimed SK, what's going to stop my lynch with 2 townies against me? The converse also applies to scum.

By maximizing town's chance of

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: By maximizing town's chance of winning, my chance of winning also increases.

[Pesco47]

I am no lowly dwarf.

I am Stozu Oxtrararstruck Baxstutspen, the goblin warlord that recently PWND Oslanvathez. I sent my army up ahead to the next dwarf fortress while I cleaned up this place by myself. I'm just that awesome .

Correction for above, I own a Masterwork

Steel

Mace. My previous claim was my safeclaim.

[Pesco47]

I just paraphrased my role PM. I'm a one-goblin-army. I have no idea what sort of creatures the mafia are. They could be anything from wild animals to hobbits.

[Pesco47]

I hope you guys aren't so blown from my SK claim that you're lost for words. It's no big deal, lynch mafioso and life goes on.

That said, the hilarity of the predicament facing everyone else is just golden. You need to claim town so that you won't be lynched, but you'd be NK'd for sure. You need to claim scum so that I won't NK you, but you'd face being lynched.

I said it yesterday, I'll repeat it again: Who wants a draw?

Town wins if they lynch scum and I kill the other one.
Scum wins if I get lynched or a townie gets lynched and I NK townie.
If a townie gets lynched and I NK scum, we repeat the process the next day. This one is where I'm most likely to win.

So there's your options, choose a path of fail.

[Pesco47]

I think we could probably call it a town win if enough people choose it.

@mod: Would that work, if everyone votes to let town win?

[Pesco47]

No answers from me until I get some scum or town claims.

The onus is now on you guys to do the serious scumhunting. I'll help in the little way that benefits me.

Just a little specualtion form me: Cyber was probably a tracker or watcher type if you want to go by the flavour of his role-name.

[Pesco47]

I'm not willing to let town win. I want to win via my 'Kill everyone except myself' win condition. To reach that end, I would have to help town win. In basic terms, I help town during Day, at Night I help scum.

Your scumhunting so far today has been asking me questions, which won't help because I'm already outed as SK. Scum is in the rest of the players around here. For one, I do think Tim is a likely scum candidate.

[Pesco47]

I haven't said anything about NK immunity. Where are you pulling that from?

[Pesco47]

You are my prime suspect, hence the questions. I don't see the problem with answering them.

FoS

at Ramus, for casting a vote already. Pesco should answer my questions and Sekinj, Timeater and Andersonw could post some more before we start throwing around votes. We have plenty of time, no need to rush things.

There is no problem with answering them, it's just a matter of when I answer them. Most preferably after everyone has posted something.

[Pesco47]

You really think a Survivor could be bullet-proof? I was pulling some cute BS there to save my own ass.

[Pesco47]

I was referring to Day 3.

I had already set up my standing to the rest of town that I was suspicious enough to warrant not being NK'd. How many of you honestly thought I was town yesterday?

[Pesco47]

Because I'm SK and I tried to kill people for the fun of it.

Onto some proper stuff for at least one townie who happens to be posting:

I do have NK-immunity. And only scum would have figured that out because at least one of the kills was my doing. Other than us choosing the same targets, they could also have chosen to NK me, which failed. They would have known I had NK immunity from that. There is no logical reason to believe there must have been a doc in the setup at all. I'll go further with the NK-immunity theory. One person on each alignment may also have it. I have it as a representative of third party, mafia godfather would have it and one specific townie would probably have it to balance their role.

Now the best chance for scum to win is to try lynch me, thus I

Vote Ramus

for being extra jumpy with the vote. You were quite happy to learn more earlier, but now want to take things a little too quickly. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me whether town or scum is lynched today, because I'll still have a chance to equalise the numbers. Lynching scum just makes my job easier.

[Pesco47]

You guys should carry on WIFOMing yourselves all you want. I'm off to sleep and will not be around to answer any questions for the next 12 hours .

If Tim or Andersonw want to continue lurking, we could just lynch one of them too. It'd also work for me you know.


Edit for Tuber:

It's more dramatic when you always have another ace up your sleeve. My abilities end with NK-immune SK. That's not exactly an improbable role, so be happy to know theres no more second guessing needed.

I doubt that there's no scum in the three of you (Sekinj, Ramus and you) who have posted. You said yourself that there's no rush, but why the change in stance now to say that I'm buying time. I am withholding information, information that could catch us scum. The claims that are coming forward are definitely lies.

I'm still not answering Tuber because he is by no means cleared scum or town to me. Being hated townie sounds very plausible for a guy to be holding NK immunity too.

[Pesco47]

Tbqh, I think I know what went wrong with my kills after my sleep. Look on day 1, thief claims how his ability is useful >_>.

Since I no longer have kill info, no need for me to hold back.

Night 1: target Andersonw, no reason other than being the first name on the list really.

Night 2: target iLord, time to take out potential threats.

Night 3: target Tuber, I suspect him of being the hammerer.

Make of that what you will.

[Pesco47]

I've given up everything I know by now, this is what it's like to be a little better than a tree-stump.

Please put out any questions you have for me again, I have a hard time finding them on my phone browser.

[Pesco47]

How would any SK feel about getting their best piece of loot stolen from them on the first day?

==========

This would be the first time I haven't killed you at the earliest opportunity.

[Pesco47]

Pretty close to that, but badass goblin warlords don't cry except for warcies.

Who of the other players are your scum possibilities, Sekinj?

[Pesco47]

I thought I killed iLord, but since the thief made me useless on day 1, I don't have any definitive proof of other NK-immunes or doc protects.

Was NK-immune SK, now only NK-immune S .

[Pesco47]

I'm SKum not scum, know the difference,

[Pesco47]

You'd find something more convincing if you'd start looking elsewhere other than me.

[Pesco47]

@ Ramus: Who do you think my so-called scum buddy would be?

You guys could always do a No Lynch. I haven't planned for that scenario, but it'll also give me another chance to confirm that I'm disarmed. Quite simply, I'll name my target (you guys can choose one for me too if you like), Day comes and we count bodies. It won't help scum at all if theres only one body.

[Pesco47]

Would you be happy with a Tim lynch then?

[Pesco47]

Modkill unlikely, replacing just screws us all. Only scum would want me dead as soon as possible. I need another night to confirm that I can't kill to you all. Scum don't want to take those chances.

[Pesco47]

I have the option of trying to kill anyone at night and maybe hitting scum successfully, which is what you'd be worried about.

Look on the flipside for scum's benefit, if my kill takes out a different townie from scum's, they win.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: Don't forget that I can only die by modkill or lynch.

[Pesco47]

I'm a girl. Guy In Real Life.

I don't think I can kill because CoCam couldn't have pulled vig/SK out of nowhere when giving his examples. He sees that he stole a mace, figures it's a killing weapon.

Ramus refuses to believe that I'm disarmed, so I entertain the possible outcomes of me still being capable of killing. Those prospects don't seem too good for scum if the lynch goes in town's favour and I nail the last guy. I wouldn't want that to happen either you know, I'd lose on the day's lynch.

The last bit was an appeal to scum in how me still being able to kill would benefit them. You got a deal with the devil, you can't expect me to not screw you over when it suits me. Day time, I help town. Night time, I help scum.

[Pesco47]

Tim's absence is cementing my belief that he and Ramus are the scum pair. Ramus just wants a lynch ASAP, using the fact that I've claimed to push for my lynch. Think about yourself, it's WIFOM and I don't care, how is the mafia faction benefitting at all in the long run with one of their members claiming like how I have done? I'm third party and I work alone.

Wrong Pesco. I currently believe you are part of the Mafia and making stuff up as you go to win the game. The fact of the matter is, you've been using a long string of little lies lately and hoping to cover them up with chance or some fallacy.

So where can you prove that I'm lying? It's only a lie if you can find a truth to make what I said false. In the absence of an absolute truth, everything is true if you believe it.

You can believe what you want, you need to convince the other players. Right now, because you voted so hastily they certainly don't feel that you're playing with town's best interests at heart.

To prove that you're unarmed, you want us to vote no lynch today. Problem is, SKs can choose not to kill at night. More so, it seems like another shot for the Mafia to kill someone.

I don't think we want to try lynch wrong and give the game to scum right away. No Lynch and a scum kill will give us a 5-player LyLo and more information. If I can still kill, I have a pretty good chance of hitting scum. Obviously the prospect of that is worrying you. It won't matter to scum whether or not a lynch occurs because they'd kill someone anyway, Night comes and they do their business.

Not to mention the nigh unlikeliness that you got stolen from the first day, before a lynch was even cast. Also, what possible hint or reasoning lead CoCam to steal from you? Very little if any reasoning at all, it would be more likely by chance, that was a 1/11 chance of picking you.

How should I know why CoCam wanted to steal from me? Maybe because he barned onto my reason for voting Tim in the early game, he thought he could have everything else of mine too. 1/11 chance is still greater than 0 chance of it happening.

[Pesco47]

We won't be needing a replacement if we lynch Tim. How about Ramus takes his vote off me and put it somewhere more useful.

[Pesco47]

How so? Why not take a review of him in the meantime, has Tim made himself a worthy townie? What sort of voting and accusation pattern have we seen from him? There's still his claim of being a cook. Every vanilla flipped so far has been a different name, with such variety, why would there be 2 cooks?

[Pesco47]

Before putting Tim to L-1 and letting the hammerer potentially do their thing, a quick poll.

Who should I attempt to NK if Tim flips town, and if he flips scum? No reasons necessary, it'll be on my whim who I decide to try my NK on.

[Pesco47]

Meh. Give us some content when you're done reading, RBT. I'm holding you partially accountable for Tim's actions.

[Pesco47]

Okay guys, learn the lingo. I'm SKum, a whole different level of awesome compared to those cowards that need to gang-bang a dwarf.

There are no SK in the DF wiki because it's a mafia role. My role for flavour is Legendary goblin warlord, with a capital L. Functionality, I am SK for the game.

Tuber: could we go over again why you weren't visibly on the wagons on Day 2 and 3? Your ability sounds pretty haphazard, what else can you tel us about your dreams?

Btw, I don't see how claiming SKum is scummy, it's truthful to say the least.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: someone obviously hadn't been reading enough. Or there's the the scum going for quickhammer.

Unvote, Vote RBT

[Pesco47]

Just about everyone was lying in massclaim R1. Pretty much null-tells all round there.

I'd like some elaboration in how the voting ties Tuber to being Hammerer.

[Pesco47]

Hmm, if you don't get modkilled for that, I'd have to assume you're lying for posting Mod communication.

But taking what the message contains, it means Minkot is a cook, but no indication of who for.

[Pesco47]

He came to Osvalanthez recently, and so did you. Breadcrumb scum buddy?

[Pesco47]

I guess the dreams are like fragments of memories, or whatever. This is what I got about (what I believe is) Timeater/RBT:

... The sound. Familiar. Behind the bushes. "Uhm uhm! Lovely! Purple and nice, too bad it's raw. Minkot will save this and cook it later. Much better that way." ...

Dwarves don't really talk in third person do they?

[Pesco47]

You've done a bit of jumping around. How about some reasons?

[Pesco47]

Hated Townie ain't been hammered. We got a liar/Hammerer on the ropes.More posting from everyone else before I take him to L-1.

[Pesco47]

I doubt 2 out 3 of my targets were NK immune. The next likely scenario was that the thief stole my mace during the day. All the variations in my role claim reflect what I am currently functioning as. Day 1 and 2 I was still SK because I didn't know if my kills were going through. Day 3 with a possible LyLo, if I still had my kill, I would have functioned exactly as an Inhibitor-survivor. My NK immunity hasn't gone anywhere, it's a perk attached to my role.

For good or bad, I'll still try kill someone tonight. My target will be dependent on the flip, so to get things moving along

Unvote, Vote Tuber

[Pesco47]

I don't think Tuber really needs 1 less vote to lynch. We'll see with the next mod update.

There's absolutely no reason why you can't post your reasons for thinking Ramus is scummy right now. If anything, your reasons can be confirmed if you don't survive the night.

Currently I'd like to try kill Ramus if Tuber flips scum, and RBT if he flips town. Remember guys, it doesn't help anyone if my NK fails.

[Pesco47]

Remember guys, it doesn't help anyone if my NK fails.

You sound more and more like a GF role that's just waiting to get down to a true lylo.

Lol obv . How else is an outed SK like me going to survive?

[Pesco47]

I'll explain more on the Ramus after I post in my other mafia games/finish homework.

More stalling for time.

[Pesco47]

To the scum out there: Claim for me and I'll help keep you from being lynched.

Vote No Lynch

, here's proof of my intent.

It appears scum didn't believe I was NK-immune. I claim RBT's frag. First on a scum wagon read pretty town to me, thus a guaranteed kill to keep the game going

[Pesco47]

Town still loses if I go. Find more scum.

[Pesco47]

I can offer Happily ever after, which I did from 2 days ago.

[Pesco47]

So why would you rather let scum win? If Ramus and Andersonw claim town, then you are obviously scum for trying to get a quicklynch going.

I am far more interested in no lynch or lynching a townie today. If my NK hits a townie at night, I'd lose in the endgame to scum. But because there is the potential for me to NK scum, I'll offer Happily ever after to whichever townie I end-game with.

[Pesco47]

I dont' think you should be rewarded for being found out.

Nobody 'found me out'. I claimed SK loud and clear.

[Pesco47]

All it takes is your consent and mine for Happily ever after to occur. I've already had my fill of winning as SK for still being here. Why can't I pity town and give them some consolation?

If scum have been reading what has been posted today, they'll see my breadcrumb and realise that things won't end well if they get lynched.

[Pesco47]

Then go die

Unvote, Vote Sekinj

[Pesco47]

Of course, town could be absolute assholes and decide to lynch me after lynching scum and I give them the free night to initiate Happily ever after.

[Pesco47]

Or should we try the 'Everyone votes to let town win' thing again?

[Pesco47]

GG town. You had your chance, now we all lose.

[Pesco47]

Lulz at me fakeclaiming the kill

I targeted Sekinj last night and that failed. I definitely can't kill. That's why I've been trying to talk you into a draw.

[Pesco47]

Last thing to consider: if I really can't kill due to being disarmed, lynching scum gives the game to town. If my kill had been role-blocked each night by scum, then town has lost from the moment the day started. Lynching me is guaranteed to hit anti-town, but you lose. Lynching the scum, you will win because I can't force an endgame,

[Pesco47]

If we lynch Pesco, then we lose if

Ramus

anyone else is scum.

Fixed

[Pesco47]

One of Ramus or Sekinj is scum. Just come out and tell the truth, you'll feel like a huge burden has been lifted from your mind like how it's working for me.

Of course, if you don't want to do that, convince me and Andersonw why you are not scum.

[Pesco47]

Well that doesn't help us much. Perhaps we should go for a questionaire to decide who's scum. I'd say andersonw ask the questions since he's confirmed.

Seconded. Andersonw calls the shots.

[Pesco47]

Town wins

Everyone agree?

[Pesco47]

You overestimate my abilities. We're not in the environment of our usual meta, I'm in no position to pull any convoluted tricks.

[Pesco47]

Ramus, I've only been holding back out of personal bias. There's been no effort at all to present a believable case to get the heat off yourself. I'd like to think you can do better than that. But let's get the game going

Unvote, Vote Ramus

If Ramus is town, I'll kill Sekinj who is obvscum by then. If Ramus is scum, it won't matter. If I can't kill and a scum flips, Town wins.

[Pesco47]

FREAKIN AWESOME !!!!1111 \O/

Sorry townies, there's no way I'd have known that Ramus was blocking me every night. Adding the fact that the game was decided once LyLo was reached. Good game and big ups to the mod for my role.

[Pesco47]

It's not like I claimed SK before it was completely safe to do so. By my count, it was just me vs scum at LyLo. Granted, townies would rather believe a claimed anti-town over an uncleared player.

Scum had already known I was NK-immune since Tuber got lynched. What Ramus should have done, was forgo a NK and let town out of LyLo. I would be lynched and he'd have been on his own against the guys already on his tail.

[Pesco47]

One last thing:

Replacements are a Mafia's worse enemies. They tend to be that fresh breath that the town needs and are usually able to pick up pieces of evidence that the town missed due to the fact that replacements are detached and able to analyze better. If it wasn't for RBT, I would say that the Mafia would've won, however, RBT saw the lack of Tuber votes and that pretty much screwed over the Mafia right there.

You could just blame Tim, a curse disguised as a blessing.

[Pesco47]

I must say that my scumdar was completely off.

You were still right about me being suspect though

[Pesco47]

No need for a wiki topic. A nomination for Scummers will be just fine.