Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over

[elvis_knits]

Yay! I wanted to be in this game and missed the sign-ups. I'll give a read and make a post tomorrow or possibly tonight.

[elvis_knits]

And my suggestion did (does) make copius sense, as his presence, if town, move the day we reach lylo forward by one. So lynching him is no loss AT ALL. Either that, or he is scum. But for some reason you guys don't like it.

Ergh, again lets map out some situations to show you how your argument stalls out

D1 - I get lynched
N1 - town killed
D2 - Random town lynched
N2 - town killed
D3 - random town lynched
N3 - game over with town dead

This plan puts us at D2 with no information to go on whatsoever D1 and two town down. This also will lose the game if you are town since D2 you would need a miracle to talk your way out of lynching me, and basically leave us needing three straight scum lynches to win. All this with no vigs

Now lets look at it my way

D1 - random town lynched
N1 - town killed
D2 - random town lynched
N2 - town killed
D3 - my restiction no lynches us or town gets lynched
N3 - game over

This plan still leaves us with two mislynches to spare, and thats it. Unlike lynching me first, there is no backlash on town who votes me that would let scum drive at least one mislynch, and maybe win the game flat out.

The ONLY difference is if you want three town mislynches or two with a no lynch. With the second plan, town would know who scum was D3 with high likelyhood too, meaning that a no lynch opens doors for a vig picking off scum.

Plan two is much better by my planning, it provides us with much more to go on, and more information for the power roles. I still dont know if you are misguided town or not, but I dont like your defense of goborage. If you paid attention, my case on him was not completely dependant on him thinking im scum for my role. It has to do with how he is pushing the thought.

Before I go do a run down of everyone I was skimming, and looking at this post.

llama, are you making an assumption about the number of scum in this game?

[elvis_knits]

Evil monkey makes me do a recap:

General note: ghostwriter and kloud, your avatars are too similar.

Post 4: Goborage quotes a line from family guy.
Post 14: Thinktank makes a reference to the evil monkey
Post 15: restfermata accuses babygirl of being killer stewie in drag
Post 16: llamafluff votes goborage for post 4, which he cites as character claiming. llama fluff also tells us his vote is useless.

Thoughts: As far as I could tell, goborage was merely quoting a favorite line from family guy... it was a joke and not a character claim. At least that is how I took it. Thinktank and restfermata make similar jokes/character references, but llamafluff does not have a problem with their comments.

Llama -- why didn't you have a problem with thinktank or restfermata for bringing up characters?

---

Post 35: IG comes in and makes a random vote on kloud and does not comment on the excitement going on with llama saying he doesn't have a vote. Why come in with a random vote when it seems that the game is moving out of the random vote stage, and there is something more meaty to comment on?

---

Anyways as a townie it is my duty to scrutinize your every move LF.

This post sort of bothers me. The indirect reference to being a townie. Sort of forced.

---

Labling me scum for having a vote restiction is in itself scummy though, not a town action. Given rule 12 I doubt im the only one with this problem too. My attempts to end RV stage over this seem futal

I don't fault goborage for being curious about your voting restriction, and I don't agree that it is inherently scummy to ask questions. I also think it's pretty interesting that you think that other players might have this voting problem, yet nobody has chimed in an said they also have the same problem. If llama knows about his problem, I assume anyone else with the same problem would know and might have said something by now.

---

kmd makes some good posts with 51 and 55. He says voteless player brings us clsoer to lylo just like a mislynch does, so you don't want to llama just because he has not vote, unless you really think he's scum.

xtoxm thinks we're better off lynching llama because he's useless without a vote. This causes, llama, kloud, and dalt, to vote xtoxm in quick succession. I'm not sure I feel about the speed of the wagon. But I do think xtoxm is looking at the lynch a little wrong. Even if llama hurts the town by having no vote, I'm not sure it's a good idea to lynch him unless we think he's scum. Especially since we haven't looked at very many other players today. It seems like xtoxm is pushing the lynch not because he thinks llama is scumm which sets off lots of alarm bells.

xtoxm - do you really think llama is scum and why? Or do you just think the town is better off without him no matter his allignment?

---

Unvote, Vote Dalt

Seemed like a very sneaky attempt at trying to get more people on Xtoxm's bandwagon.

IG: What was sneaky about it? What was sneakier or worse about dalt's vote than the others?

---

My point about LF is that he is either an anti-town role, or full blown scum. If he was 100% cleared then I wouldn't want him lynched, but he can be scum. So I think this makes him a very good day one lynch. I did not say I think LF is town, but I want him lynched anyway. I've found his claim to be quite scummy, actually.

xtoxm: can you elaborate why you find the claim scummy? Was it timing or something else?

---

Post 79: llama talks about the specific of how his restriction works. I'm wondering, do we know everything about how the voting restriction works? Is there anything else you can tell us -- without giving away role info (that's not what I'm looking for)? I guess what I'm really wondering, will you have this voting problem every day? Could it be lifted?

---

Well xotxm is the scummiest in my book right now, earning him my "vote", and I look forward to hear some more from him on his policy lynch.

It is not a policy lynch, I never said that and you are putting words into my mouth now. Please don't.

And what more are you expecting me to add about my reasons for wanting you lynched?

I actually agree that it is a policy lynch since it seems to me the main reason you want him dead is not because of how he has played, but just because you think the restriction hurts the town. If there are other reasons you find him scummy, please elaborate.

---

Post 97: Goborage reappears. His absense is a bit suspicious to me since he was part of the original argument with llama about claiming. Once suspicion turns to llama, goborage disappeared.

I don't think gobo is scum, he looks very good to me.

And my suggestion did (does) make copius sense, as his presence, if town, move the day we reach lylo forward by one. So lynching him is no loss AT ALL. Either that, or he is scum. But for some reason you guys don't like it.

xtoxm: Why do you think gobo is town?

Also, xtoxm, you don't seem to be looking at anyone else as scum. What are your suspicions?

---

The only concern I have with Llama's role at the moment is that it could be a very good way of getting the mafia to avoid night killing you. After all, if it benefits them in LYLO then why would they kill you when they could kill someone else and possibly get lucky?

It sounds like you think he's faking it. It also sounds like you think he's not mafia, as you think the claim is a "good way of getting the mafia to avoid night killing you." So either you think he's a SK or town. If you think he's town, you should be against his lynch. Are you? And if you're thinking about SK at this point in the game, it makes me wonder if YOU are mafia, because I usually see mafia worried about SK early (at a time when town are just thinking about catching scum, not telling SK from mafia).

---

Conclusions: I have a lot of questions and things I would like to discuss. I am suspicious of goborage for disappearing after putting suspicion on llama. I am suspicious of xtoxm for not looking at any players besides llama as scum. I am suspicious of llama for calling out goborage, but not thinktank or restfermata (although I think this point is more minor than the others). But I think I'm most suspicious of IG for random voting in the midst of a meaty argument, then saying dalt's vote was "sneaky." I agree it was shameless bandwagonning, but it was not sneaky. I also don't like the last post that I quoted.

I am very open to discussion though... so please comment on the stuff I have brought up.

unvote

until I decide who deserves my vote most. I'm leaning IG, but I want to hear responses from people I've put questions to.

[elvis_knits]

Unvote, Vote Dalt

Seemed like a very sneaky attempt at trying to get more people on Xtoxm's bandwagon.

IG: What was sneaky about it? What was sneakier or worse about dalt's vote than the others?

Xtoxm had just had a lot of votes put on him in a short amount of time. To come in and add another without even posting any of your own reasoning, just quoting someone else, seems bad to me.

I agree that the third vote on one person in one page with no reasoning does look bad. If you had said you didn't like the wagoning, or explained it like you did above, I would have totally understood. It's the fact that you characterized it as sneaky that I don't like. Because I don't think there was anything secretive about it. It was all out there.

The only concern I have with Llama's role at the moment is that it could be a very good way of getting the mafia to avoid night killing you. After all, if it benefits them in LYLO then why would they kill you when they could kill someone else and possibly get lucky?

It sounds like you think he's faking it. It also sounds like you think he's not mafia, as you think the claim is a "good way of getting the mafia to avoid night killing you." So either you think he's a SK or town. If you think he's town, you should be against his lynch. Are you? And if you're thinking about SK at this point in the game, it makes me wonder if YOU are mafia, because I usually see mafia worried about SK early (at a time when town are just thinking about catching scum, not telling SK from mafia).

I'm not sure if he's faking it or not. If he is then it rules him out of being Mafia in my book. I hadn't even thought of a SK being in this game. The fact that you added that whole SK spiel at the end of your post is duly noted.

Overall, you've raised some good points about some people but I'm not really convinced yet.

Vote elvis_knits

I don't understand what you were saying then. Because you said you are concerned about llama faking a restriction to avoid mafia NKing him. If you think he's town, why would this concern you?

What I mean is -- if you think a townie has found a way to avoid a NK, why would you dislike that?

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure I really care about BG. I'm more interested in why IG posted and didn't respond to my post 201.

[elvis_knits]

I've never played with lovers before so I think I have to do a little reasearch on how it all works. But I don't think we should lynch either of them. I didn't think BG was scum before, and this is really helpful to semi-clear xtoxm. I know we can't be 100% sure, but it makes me basically put him down as town.

[elvis_knits]

Ok so I may have been a bit over-zealous with the whole clearing comment. It seems if they know each other's allignment they would be called siblings, and lovers by definition do not know each other's allignment.

But I still don't think it's a good idea to kill either today.

[elvis_knits]

[elvis_knits]

EBWOP - my typo probably made things unclear at the end.

My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners now

FoS StD

OMGUS much?

[elvis_knits]

All I can think of is that in a game like this, experienced scum will often lurk because so many other players are doing it so they can get away with it.

I'm pretty sure farsidemod is being ruthless about prodding and replacing players. I don't think lurking is an issue in this game. If you disagree, who do you think is guilty of it?

We are barely getting any information from this.

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

Entirely WIFOM. Scum excuse scum tells by calling them too obvious and saying scum would never do such a thing.

On this topic, I do think that scumtells exist. I also think that scum try to avoid them. I also think town try to avoid them. But I think the one of the main challenges of mafia is that it is really hard to avoid all scumtells even when you are aware of them. I have often played a game as scum and been like... "why do I keep doing that... doh!". But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

EBWOP - my typo probably made things unclear at the end.

My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners now

FoS StD

OMGUS much?

trying to look active much?

Are you trying to say that I am lurking? I only replaced in this game a few days ago. Have I not participated enough for you?

[elvis_knits]

But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

You're my favorite.

<3

[elvis_knits]

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

Scum don't always have safe claims. The fact that you're bringing this up makes me wonder if you KNOW that mafia have safe claims because you're one of them.

[elvis_knits]

IG seems be speculating and fishing quite a bit about my restriction and the cleveland issue. There are no solid conclusions though regarding these things, leaving them at "Im not sure" allowing movement to any side of the issue as needed later on. After the lover claim, in two consecutive posts he speculates about a scum lover.

In his aggressions IG right now has EK for previously mentioned reasons (which I have a hard time finding) and me for being overzealous? Can you explain each of those a little better, especially how you are attributing me being overzealous to me being scum. The EK vote bugs me when it was cast too as EK "made some good points". Making good points is something that I naturally attribute to a town tell, maybe this was just due to having no other suspects at the time though.

I think IG voted me because I was attacking him but hadn't voted him yet. It was a pre-emptive OMGUS, if that even exists lol. Also a way for him to try to discredit my points against him.

I think his vote on me is suspect because it is solely based on what dalt did. And dalt posted 5 times the whole game (one was a confirmation). Yes, he did bandwagon xtoxm without giving his reasons. BUT, 1)he was not the only person bandwagoning, and 2)he flaked on the game, so maybe that's why he wasn't giving a lot of input. All things considered, I think that the charge of bandwagonning would have to be combined with other things to actually merit a vote. It just seems too thin at this point in the game. I can't understand how dalt voting xtoxm and not giving reasons is THE SCUMMIEST thing in the game at this point. I can see how some people would be suspicious or see it as scummy, but I don't think it's reasonable to think it's the scummiest.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't say they always have safeclaims. I don't know much about how often they have safeclaims, but I've read some minigames, such as Roald Dahl Mafia, where they had safeclaims. Honestly I was just asking a strategic question. I thought I made it clear that I said that scum OFTEN have safeclaims IN THEME GAMES. I wasn't even necessarily talking about THIS theme game. I was asking about the advantages of breadcrumbing in a theme game where scum often have safeclaims. I guess I should have known that asking this would paint a target on my ass, but I'd still like to know the answer.

The point is that since scum don't always have safe claims, nobody should know if they do have safe claims unless they are mafia. You bringing it up makes it seem like you know they do.

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway?

I think it's mostly the same advantages as when there are not safe claims. For scum or town, they both want the same thing... It can help people believe your claim. It can help them trust you even before you claim (if they pick up on your crumb and believe you). But it can also backfire and get you lynched or NK'ed. So it really depends on the role and how much you think is good to risk.

On the topic of safe claims, I'm not generally too scared of them. Many times the safe claims the mafia have are second tier characters, so that's one way of helping to evaluate if it's real or not. Also, you have to put more faith in how they've been playing rather than their claim.

[elvis_knits]

I think my reasons for my vote on IG are pretty sound. His posts do little to help the town, and almost seem to be advice to scum half the time.

Did you already point out where you think IG does this? I'm curious because I don't think I saw it. Usually scum don't advise each other during the day since they can talk at night...

[elvis_knits]

I know this is sort of stupid for me to be grilling you over your suspicions of IG since I am also suspicious of IG. But when did you start being suspicious of him? I have this feeling that you only started talking about him after I attacked him... which makes me uneasy.

[elvis_knits]

I'm trying to decide whether I want to vote IG or KMD more. I also want to look at reborn. I'm not sure what I think of him, but since he has 2 votes I want to see if it's something I could agree with. We're getting close to deadline so we've got to reach a consensus. I'll try to vote later today to help move things along.

[elvis_knits]

I'm trying to decide whether I want to vote IG or KMD more. I also want to look at reborn.

Reasoning please?

Well I disagreed with you about BG even before her claim. But I do think your reasoning was okay -- the point about her bandwagoning almost everyone is not horrible reason to vote a person. Just the fact that I had a different read on her despite the fact of her bandwagoning. So that reason is sort of "meh."

But I guess the main reason is that I didn't like that you criticized me for calling reborn's vote an OMGUS. It reads to me like a subtle defense of reborn. Do you think reborn's vote was not OMGUS? Why were you looking to criticize me over that?

[elvis_knits]

I am not sure I understand you. What does "the fact that there was a case on you" have anything to do with it?

[elvis_knits]

I am not sure I understand you. What does "the fact that there was a case on you" have anything to do with it?

You could have defended with more than 2 words.

Do you realize that STD voted reborn, reborn FoSed STD, and then I called it OMGUS? None of those people were attacking me, so I wasn't defending myself.

[elvis_knits]

Unvote Vote Thinktank

I do look bad, but think has gone under my radar for some time and I want people to remember him if I am lynched.

Is this your case on thinktank?

[elvis_knits]

vote inspector godot

[elvis_knits]

BG - Wtf?

lol.

I agree.

[elvis_knits]

Thinktank, I happen to think the case on you is utterly weak to the point of ridiculousness. If BG hadn't claimed lovers with Xtoxm my vote would be on her right now because of her opportunistic waggoning onto you.

IG, please explain to me if you were serious about thinktank or if this was some kind of elaborate ruse/gambit?

I'm not serious about lynching him, I'm just trying to make sure he's either remembered or posts more. It seems like things are going the second way.

IG... there's no need to vote for people you are "just trying to make sure he's either remembered or posts more." You vote for people you think are scummy. You vote for people you want to die. Otherwise it's really fishy. Because you're not using your vote to get us closer to a lynch. We're on deadline.

And reborn... why are you calling IG's vote "an elaborate ruse/gambit"? What do you think the elaborate ruse/gambit could be?

[elvis_knits]

And reborn... why are you calling IG's vote "an elaborate ruse/gambit"? What do you think the elaborate ruse/gambit could be?

I wasn't calling it that, I was asking if it was.

Characterizing it as that is pretty inflamatory.

In this case the gambit would be making an incredibly weak case on someone and then seeing if anyone waggoned onto the weak case. For example, as BG did. It's something I encountered in a recent game. The object of such a gambit would be to catch out opportunistic people looking for an easy wagon.

Like I said, if BG hadn't claimed lovers I'd be going for her now because of the waggoning onto TT.

If personA made a weak case "to catch scum hopping on a weak wagon," I would assume personA was scum. I don't like it when people set traps, and find that mostly scum set traps, or excuse their scummy play as "setting a trap -- not serious!" So that kind of thing would not fly with me.

[elvis_knits]

STD, could you repeat or summarize (or point me to appropriate post) your pizza case on reborn? I remember reading your summary post and catching some stuff on reborn, but not really understanding why he was your number 1.

[elvis_knits]

unvote IG

Here's what you've said about LlamaFluff's votes, and I wish I had said this earlier.

1) Gob (for thinking of character claiming - this after ONE Cleveland quote I might add, and right before he full claims his role)
2) Xtoxm (let's face it, this is pretty OMGUS, although I'm not sure I like Xtoxmm that much myself)
3) Ghostwriter (post 100... trying to make sense of this... go and look back, I guarantee headache)
4) unvotes a couple of posts later (post 104, but who's counting?)
5) Back on goborage (basically because goborage was afk I think)

1. A vote in the random voting stage. I commend LF on having something to say instead of "Let me roll a die. It landed on 6. Clearly Steve is scum."
2. Xtoxm was suspicious, as you said.
3. I'll give you this one, I don't really know where he's going.
4. I think he was correcting a mistake he made, but he can speak for himself on this issue.
5. Yes, because goborage was his top suspect. Wow. He's going back to his original suspect.

My god, four votes? One of them in the random voting stage, so three total up to this point in the game? Can anyone legitimately tell me that four votes in 12 pages in a game is wishy-washy? Hell, I've voted more than four times in this game, even if you ignore Crub's votes. You accused him of wishywashy-ness, I say you're accusation is full of crap.

I didn't see much of a case on reborn from your previous post, but this is an argument that I agree with. Attacking LF for making four votes seems very thin. It seems like reborn is making a mountain out of a molehill. Not even a molehill. More like an anthill.

My general feeling on LF is that after being attacked early he keeps lashing out against anyone who accuses him. He's acting very OMGUS-y. And I know that OMGUS can be a scum tell. BUT I also think it's natural for someone who feels they are being unfairly attacked to fight back. They obviously don't agree with the attacker and so they think the attacker has ulterior motives and is thus scummy. I have been in LF's position and I know that it can be hard to sort scum from misguided town, and find yourself doing a lot of OMGUS. I also think some of his arguments are not spectacularly well-thought or explained. But I'm not sure any of it is necessarily scummy.

And I do think that reborn was piling onto LF with BS reasons in the above quoted area.

vote reborn

[elvis_knits]

Bleh.

unvote reborn

I'm thinking maybe this is when we consider lynching llama. I have to go look if I think anyone else deserves to die. I have this idea that kmd gave me a twinge somewhere but I don't really remember why. I will have to go and look.

If we can't think of anything better, I say llama.

Also, if people really want to lynch me, let me know why and I'll discuss it as much as I can before deadline. I don't think xtoxm has given me anything to respond to, so I am ignoring him.

[elvis_knits]

We could kill restfermata over her "safeclaim" comment...

vote restfermata

Otherwise, I say llama.

[elvis_knits]

You know what I am going to get wagoned here so its probally time for me to claim as well. I am

Peter: Mod-Bastardized JOAT

.

Unlike the normal JOAT I have no controll over what ability I use, just my target. When I use a specific action instead, I lose my role but can vote. This night I can confirm IG with a specific action.

I never thought that llama was necessarily townie besides the voteless thing. I think he left that open-ended. So I don't think it conflicts with his play.

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote about your ability though. "When I use a specific action instead, I lose my role but can vote." You lose your role??

Also, you say you can confirm IG. Don't you mean you can confirm or convict? Are you expecting him to be innocent? Do you

know

he's innocent?

[elvis_knits]

I think he might be scum who was told Peter is absent.

Peter being absent seems ridiculous.

Peter being here but lying about his ability seems possible.

[elvis_knits]

Your role does make sense. I have to say I thought you were going to claim meg since I remember someone speculating that meg might have no vote because nobody listens to her.

[elvis_knits]

Good posting.

Anyone want to lynch restfermata?

[elvis_knits]

Unvote

Seeing as how the top 4 bandwagons today have all flopped horrendously..

vote: Elvis

Why are you blaming me for that?

[elvis_knits]

Elvis - why RF?

She assumed that scum have safe claims.

[elvis_knits]

Voteless Townie.

I'm pretty sure that llama said that he can choose a specific action but then he loses his power from then on and becomes a regular townie WITH a vote.

So if he does a specific action tonight he will come to us tomorrow as a regular townie. He will have a vote.

[elvis_knits]

Good posting.

Anyone want to lynch restfermata?

I'm tempted to throw a vote on EK almost out o process of elimination and fear of a no lynch with all of the claims. This post looks like an attempt to shift a wagon elsewhere before EK's has a chance to pop up.

That's really scummy for you to say.

I addressed anyone who wanted to vote me/lynch me. I said that I want to discuss in any way and be as helpful as possible. Xtoxm never gave any reasons, and as far as I can tell, neither has anyone else.

I voted RF because it was my next best choice. Am I supposed to not vote anyone because I want to be fair to the people who might want to vote me? I have to keep going and voting for who I think is scummiest. That's obviously not me.

And of course I don't want a wagon on me. Why is that scummy?

[elvis_knits]

What the hell. Honestly. Who in the series loves Bonnie other than Joe? Now this is getting a tad bit confusing as hell.

Well. Unless BG fakeclaimed. But I figured it was one of those things Farside threw in to game being broken by claims etc.

We're millerlovers.

MILLER lovers? Is that a joke? Because I don't remember you saying that before. Also think it's scummy because you never mentioned it.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure if I'm lynched yet. In case it helps at all, I will claim.

I am Chris, Simpleton

Which amounts to vanilla townie. So if I have to die today I guess it's not the worst that could happen.

Also, I made a reference to the evil monkey in my summary post because Chris is the one who is constantly tormented by the evil monkey.

Oh and I think kmd is scummiest now because of reasons I wrote in 635.

unvote; vote kmd

[elvis_knits]

Why can't you believe I claimed? I think I'm L-1 or something.

[elvis_knits]

I see that xtoxm, GW, IG, RF are all voting for me. I think KMD means to vote for me from his comments. Technically L-3, but I consider it L-2. With the deadline and all, I figured I should claim ASAP if I am the highest vote leader. You disagree?

[elvis_knits]

Normally I would agree with you and not even bother to claim anything if I was vanilla, but I do have a character, which changes things, I think. How would scum know to claim Chris?

[elvis_knits]

I know but I was thinking that all vanillas would be Chris, and so it would make a difference.

But maybe that's stupid. Do you think there would be other vanillas with a different character?

[elvis_knits]

[elvis_knits]

Sorry, that's just the way it goes. I'd rather lynch a dodgy vanilla claim than risk drawing out another power role.

Why is it dodgy?

I understand if you have to lynch vanilla on principle. But I don't understand why it's dodgy.

[elvis_knits]

Ugh. This game is getting really quite confusing.

And I have no idea who to think scum is now...Pretty certain she's real cos that's not a clever thing to do if you're a scum that's about to die.

I guess we should lynch her anyway.

Maybe you should, since vanilla is the best thing for the town to lose if it's gonna lose something. I am sorry for claiming as it looks like I miscalculated there. I normally don't claim as vanilla but I thought it would be different here.

If I'm gonna die soon I would like to say a few last words. I think you should look at kmd tomorrow, as his latest attack on me was complete speculation, framing my actions in a scummy way that is very WIFOM.

I also think you should look at GW for piggy-backing onto STD's scum list and not seeming to have a mind of his own.

I have previously thought thinktank was townie, but I am starting to see his as not contributing enough and voting almost blindly. I see him as a toss-up now, but I think he needs to be pressured in the future and not allowed to skate through this game without contributing.

Also, I noticed xtoxm is modding a lovers game. It seems like an odd coincidence that he got a lover role in this game. Coincidences do happen and I don't know why scum would even lie about having a role like that. So I don't knwo if it's likely at all that he's lying. Pretty unlikely, actually. But I just want that bit of info out there.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry, that's just the way it goes. I'd rather lynch a dodgy vanilla claim than risk drawing out another power role.

Why is it dodgy?

I understand if you have to lynch vanilla on principle. But I don't understand why it's dodgy.

I think all vanillas are Chris! Do you agree Reborn?

No, I don't, and I don't know why you'd think that.

I always assume that all vanillas have the same role. Maybe that's stupid. But that's what I thought.

[elvis_knits]

In a theme game based on a tv show there will only be one of each character. At least, I hope that's true or we could have some mad Stewie on Stewie action going on around here.

I was talking about vanilla roles.

[elvis_knits]

I can't believe you've claimed. Did you even count the votes on you?

Why were you disappointed to see me claim? It seems like (at least at that point) you thought I was town, and believed my claim. Otherwise you would not have been disappointed to see me claim.

[elvis_knits]

MOD,

I say end day right before you go away. That way night actions can get sent in while you're away and then game back open then.

[elvis_knits]

I thought we could lynch someone else in 3 days.

But I am fine with longer. I just thought it might satisfy the game and the mod as a compromise.

But if you think it means my death, I will change and request flying solo during farside's vacay...

[elvis_knits]

I can't believe you've claimed. Did you even count the votes on you?

Why were you disappointed to see me claim? It seems like (at least at that point) you thought I was town, and believed my claim. Otherwise you would not have been disappointed to see me claim.

No, I thought you'd claimed prematurely because at that point I thought there were only a couple of votes on you. I was wrong.

It sounds like you're really a slave to the conventions of mafia and don't evaluate things on a case by case basis. Which is exactly why STD wanted you dead earlier. It might just be your playstyle, but you're not looking at things on an individual basis... you're spouting knee-jerk MS conventions of play.

[elvis_knits]

At the very least I think reborn considered me town when I first claimed. Otherwise, why would he have disliked the fact that I did it early (early in his estimation). He seems to think I did something wrong and harmful to the town by claiming then. He seemed to dislike the fact that now I would have to be lynched.

If he thought I was scum, he wouldn't feel that way.

[elvis_knits]

How did you go from asking people their reasons for voting me because you saw no case on me, to thinking I am extremely scummy?

I knew that several people thought you were scum, although they refused to tell me why. Considering the fact that more people think you are scum than there are likely to be scum in the game, a couple of them at least are genuine townies with genuine reasons on you. That's why I moved my vote to you.

I think EK is the right play because she is extremely scummy

[elvis_knits]

I believe I have seen kloud browsing this forum multiple times today and not posting (and I don't think he's in another game in coney island).

[elvis_knits]

God, this is basically a really painful, drawn-out version of a mass claim. And guess what! I bet everyone's going to claim pro-town! Surprise! Guess there are no scum in this game, case closed.

This comment is not helpful at all. Most of us are running around trying to question each other and figure out how we feel about others, while you are just sitting there and complaining and not helping us get any closer to a lynch. In fact, you're implying that it's futile for us to even try.

Don't you have any other comments about what has been happening the last few pages?

If you think some of the claims have been false, which ones? Why?

I do not like this post at all. Coming in here complaining instead of helping. Also offering no information about what she thinks. Her comments have the effect of stopping discussion and making people feel like they shouldn't even try. Instead, a pro-town player should be trying to find scum and trying to build momentum, not stopping the momentum.

I don't think the amount of claims we have had is necessarily bad for the game. Maybe some people are lying and forcing them to claim now increases our chances of catching them in a lie later. Faking a power role is really not that easy. They will have ot give results, and it is easy to make mistakes. Also, for me, if anyone still thinks I am lying about townie, there are ways I could be caught if I am scum. Cop or a tracker could bust me if I'm lying (maybe other roles too). So getting scummy people to claim is a good thing, and increases our chance of catching scum later.

Also, outing this many power roles may mean we lose one tonight. But maybe there are A LOT of power roles and one would have probably died anyway. We don't know. It might not be that bad. And with a lot of town power, we will still have more power roles left.

AND, I think it's stupid to stop scum hunting because you're afraid to out more power roles. If you've made some power roles vulnerable, you have to make that sacrifice worth something by trying to lynch scum.

I have used the "let's not out any more power roles" argument as scum because 1)I didn't want too many semi-confirmed people pile up because it would just add to the list I HAD to kill; and 2) scum think it makes them look pro-town.

unvote; vote restfermata

[elvis_knits]

EK - I think the bulk of my suspicion on you comes from dalt rather than yourself. Dalt did enough to be lynched just on his own, and your vanilla claim holds no WIFOM with me.

dalt hardly did anything. He made like 3-4 posts, so you can't seriously think that after 30+ pages of mafia, and all everyone has posted, that dalt "did enough to be lynched." dalt was guilty of bandwagoning without giving reasons. When he was originally voted, most people just wanted him to give reasons. He flaked on the site, so he didn't have a chance. You can't say that is definitively scummy.

After the amount that I have posted, it's really crazy to rely on the three posts that a flaker made.

[elvis_knits]

D1 is not a total botch. I'm telling you: this many power roles claiming does not favor scum. I've been on the other side of this. Pretend everyone is telling the truth. When power roles claim and they don't get lynched, it means you have to kill them at night. And you can only kill one each night. Meanwhile the others are coming back with results. Best case, they confirm an innocent (which makes another you have to kill at night). Worst case they have some kind of evidence against you, which makes you dead in the water.

AND, we don't know what other roles are out there. There may be a cop or a doc or both. Which scum really need to find and kill ASAP. So if they kill from the claimed roles, they are not killing the potential cop or doc. And if they take a shot in the dark to try to kill a potential cop/doc, they are not killing the other power roles which may come back with info.

Town's not screwed.

[elvis_knits]

It's nothing but a joke, and a frustrated one at that. You're definitely reading too much into it when you say I'm implying that our efforts are futile. But I'm not too shocked that you saw something in it, since you definitely seem to be blowing every little thing I say way out of proportions, like the whole safeclaim bonanza (but interestingly, when xtoxm says a similar thing and reborn says the EXACT same thing I did, it's somehow not as suspicious.) But I've got to get ready to go now. I'll have more content after classes are over today.

You still haven't explained why you aren't scum hunting or adding to the discussion.

[elvis_knits]

There's a lot of complaining going on here. I'm not sure what RF, STD or reborn hope to accomplish by complaining and calling this game a farce and a botch. It just makes me want to stop posting. Which we can't afford to do.

Re: my point about xtoxm modding a lover's game -- I know it's a far-fetched gambit, and I admitted it's probably nothing. I just noticed it, saw it was aweird coincidence and couldn't stop myself from commenting.

Re: lynching lovers -- probably not a good idea today. I'm leaning town with xtoxm, and unsure about BG because of the lack of content.

Re: some of my meta comments -- I assume STD means when I said kloud wasn't posting in the game but browsing the forum. I stand by it because 1)It's scummy not to be active in the game near deadline 2) It made him post almost immediately upon being called out.

I am looking forward to some comments from RF about what has been happening and where she think we should go from here.

[elvis_knits]

EK, the thing about me modding a lover game is really crap.

I pretty much agree. I only said it on the off chance. Like one in a million. I don't know why I even bothered, but I couldn't help myself.

I think I just felt the need to bring it up because you hadn't brought it up yourself, which I think would be normal. You might have spoken of your interest in the role, or some ideas you have about how it should be played because of the game you're modding.

Out of curiousity, do you have any insight about how you think it should be played? If we think one of you is scum, when would be a good time ot lynch you? That sort of thing.

I didn't mean for it to be this tangent that distracts the whole town. It was just something I felt the need to say, and now I have to keep talking about it because people keep bringing it up. Does anyone think I had some ulterior motive in saying it? It's just something I threw out there.

[elvis_knits]

There's a lot of complaining going on here. I'm not sure what RF, STD or reborn hope to accomplish by complaining and calling this game a farce and a botch. It just makes me want to stop posting. Which we can't afford to do.

??? This comment was in jest, and merely an observation. I hardly see how it's complaining. I find the fact that it's turned into what it has interesting.

Re: some of my meta comments -- I assume STD means when I said kloud wasn't posting in the game but browsing the forum. I stand by it because 1)It's scummy not to be active in the game near deadline 2) It made him post almost immediately upon being called out.

I'll give you that, but you tried to pin him as a lurker who haunted the Coney Island forum, looking at this thread but not posting, when he has two other threads in Coney Island.

Yes, he was lurker. No, he probably wasn't avoiding the game. Once someone decided to attack me for posting in a Mish Mash thread but not in the game, and it pissed me off, because it was irrelevant.

It's how you presented your argument that I find suspicious.

I'm referring to this one as well:

Re: my point about xtoxm modding a lover's game -- I know it's a far-fetched gambit, and I admitted it's probably nothing. I just noticed it, saw it was aweird coincidence and couldn't stop myself from commenting.

Again, you presented a fairly weak argument in meta, as an attempt to paint a negative picture. It sounds to me like you're desperate.

As for lynching: I don't think we need to randomly lynch people until we get the scum, nor do I think reborn's advocating that.

However, our lynch is our only (known) tool for removing the scum, and if we do nothing, then we're at their mercy.

The meta points was me grabbing at straws as we approached a deadline within a few hours and all my main suspects were gone. I agree they weren't great points. They were meant to generate discussion more than anything.

[elvis_knits]

Oh, you the game is ongoing, so you're not supposed to reference it.

I didn't mean in the context of what is happening in that game. Just the fact that it exists and that you have probably thought about the role more than most people.

[elvis_knits]

E_K, if you don't think your points were great, let's hear some great points! I mean, as vanilla town, that's only one of two powers you really have, right? Making great points and voting? Oh, and as you're typing up those great points, I'd also like to hear an answer to that question I asked a while back. No, no, you don't have to look for it. I'll type it up for you, and draw some illustrations. Won't that be nice?

Safe claims are pretty common in a theme game.

I was just in a theme game as scum and we all had safe claims.

Well, we can assume that either scum got safeclaims, or they are safe to claim themself.

Hey, all of this sounds familiar.

Why is it OK for them to talk about safeclaims, but you started proposing a bandwagon on me earlier based solely upon one comment about safeclaims, namely this one?

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway?

What is the difference between "scum often have safeclaims in a theme game" (me) and "safe claims are pretty common in a theme game" (reborn)?

Wow. Dripping with sarcasm. Nice touch.

The reason I jumped on you for your comment about safe claims is because nobody had brought that up before. Once you said it, the idea is common to all of us and further comments on it are a null tell for me. Not that people have never heard of safe claims before you brought it up. But just that once you bring it up, people are thinking about it in this situation where they might not have before.

I have seen scum slip and say the number of scum in the game (cephrir in crubtown mini and yosarian in dynamite mafia). I considered your remark about safe claims to be somewhat similar.

I will also say that some of your comments after that (I'm thinking of the morning we were posting back and forth -- I can go find the posts/date later) satisfied me to some degree, and I wasn't interested in pushing it then. But in the absence of other leads, I returned to you.

[elvis_knits]

OK, I've checked the pm thoroughly and I was wrong. Ghostwriter is correct, it seems to be very much the traditional inventing role - although I don't know if people normally make up the names of their inventions when inventing, but that is the case with me.

It looks to me like you faked your inventor claim and then pretended you misread your PM when you realized your claim varied from the traditional inventor role and were worried we would not believe this variant of the role.

I guess it could happen that you really misread it, but, I know I always make sure I understand my role and reread my pm if I'm going to claim. Because it really destroys your credibility if you change your story later.

I am not a fan.

[elvis_knits]

Xtoxm, there is no reason for you not to nameclaim. If you don't nameclaim I will vote for you.

I don't understand why you and GW want him to nameclaim.

[elvis_knits]

If someone can just explain why he's not name claiming, I might rescind my vote! That said, his behaviour since me asking him to do that has just been... bad.

The way I see it is that you think when he claimed BG's lover he should have claimed his name. You think that scum might not have character names or safe claims.

I don't think that he should have necessarily claimed his role name when he claimed BG's lover.

You should be asking him to claim if you think he's scummy. You shouldn't be thinking he's scummy for not name claiming.

[elvis_knits]

I feel like STD actually has reasons he thinking xtoxm is scummy, but reborn mostly thinks xtoxm is scummy for not name-claiming. Which amounts to reborn name-fishing, and voting xtoxm for not complying.

Combine that with reborn's accidental misreading of his PM, and I am feeling very suspicious of reborn.

Also, I always felt a little weird about reborn suggesting he invent a "death ray" tonight. I'm not sure he should be immediately trying to vig someone on N1. Also not sure a pro-town player would want to pass a vig power to another at this time. Maybe later if another player is confirmed pro-town. But not on N1.

I think that his comments and willingness to vig on N1 shows that he is bloodthirsty. Also, he might be looking for a way to explain the fact that he is scum going to make a kill tonight anyway. So saying you invented a deathray is a convenient explanation for a kill.

vote reborn

Unless everyone thinks we should let him live for the night to see if he can confirm himself? That will entail him claiming tomorrow, his invention choice and person he sent it to, and the person will have to confirm that they received the item. Of course, the person may end up dead, and then whoops, we have to leave reborn alive for another night to try to confirm himself.

I'm open to suggestions about dealing with him. But I think he's scummy.

[elvis_knits]

er,

unvote; vote reborn

[elvis_knits]

EK - That's all well and good, but is a scum inventor possible, do you think?

All we will have confirmed is him being an inventor.

I don't really think he's an inventor at all. If he is an inventor, I am more likely to believe he's town.

[elvis_knits]

Well first he claimed he invented items for his own use and that he intended to invent a death ray in hope of it being a vig ability. Then he "proves" himself by killing someone, which could just as easily be a scum kill that he explains by him inventing a death ray.

[elvis_knits]

I think he made a mistake by saying he invented the items for himself because people started to point out that is different than the usual definition of the inventor role.

So then he had to say he misread his PM.

Now he is in the position of having to give his invention to another player, which is much more complicated for him to fake. He either has say he sent his invention to whoever he NK'ed, or a scum buddy has to vouch for him (very dangerous for both), or he has to say "I must have been blocked."

If any of the above situations happen tonight (in the event we don't lynch him today), I think we should definitely lynch him tomorrow.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think we should try to direct him.

If he really is an inventor that makes it it much more likely that 1)his target gets NKed or 2)he gets blocked (if possible).

And if those things happen we can't confirm him. But we also can't really blame him and lynch him because he has a convenient excuse for why he isn't confirmed.

I think we shouldn't direct him, but if he comes up with any of these excuses:

He either has say he sent his invention to whoever he NK'ed, or a scum buddy has to vouch for him (very dangerous for both), or he has to say "I must have been blocked."

... then we lynch him.

[elvis_knits]

Although lynching him today is my preference

[elvis_knits]

That leaves

Kloud
KMD
Reborn
GW

I'd also add RF.

No offense

[elvis_knits]

It would be risky to claim he gave it to a scumpartner, and have the partner confirm a lie, in the sense that if one gets caught the other is automatically also caught.

This is what I meant by risky to have scum partner vouch for you. You can try to get out of it by WIFOM in some cases. But it could also be really bad.

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm, changing your role claim, suggesting night actions that result in more dead (inventing death rays), watching the flash wiki thing to understand your "role" (instead of reading your pm or asking the mod), and assuming a mafia RB in the game?

Scum-o!

[elvis_knits]

OMG, I've never seen a coinflip. It's usually whoever got to that number of voted first, if there's a tie. And I bet farside does it that way because when she did a VC, with reborn and tt tied, reborn was in red, and tt was not.

I really think reborn lynch is best.

[elvis_knits]

You know, I agree about some of the things on TT... not being that helpful and all.

But I don't understand why reborn is off the hook.

I also don't understand xtoxm, and how he goes "tt is town" for pages on end and then is like "wagon in tt!" I think xtoxm has multiple personalities.

[elvis_knits]

I see GW as big possibility for scumo too. I also don't think tt is a bad wagon. I just would have rather killed reborn today.

I guess TT should claim though.

[elvis_knits]

I'm having pizza for dinner.

mod: can you prod thinktank?

Gracias.

Done

[elvis_knits]

Well, he should have claimed his role, not just his character name. That is suspicious.

[elvis_knits]

Tempted to hammer but I guess I can wait for the deadline.

[elvis_knits]

Prob not.

He had a chance to claim his role and didn't. And at this point there's not point in scrambling to a different person.

unvote; vote thinktank

HAMMAH! (Supreme Pizza )

[elvis_knits]

If LF confirms someone it could mean they get killed by mafia sooner...

But if LF dies before revealing his innocent, then his investigation is lost. Which is much worse, IMO.

[elvis_knits]

Herbert. OMG. lol.

The only thing I can see why herbert would be lovers with bonnie is if herbert can't wait to molest her unborn child... But why Bonnie would return the feeling, I have no idea. The whole thing is really weird.

Although, I'm not sure how Herbert would go about killing if he was scum. Beat with his walker? I don't think he has the strength.

One thing I was wodnering, it sounded like xtoxm didn't know that BG's character was Bonnie? Is that true? You were not given the character name of the other? Is that normal?

Also, I wish xtoxm would stop voting blindly and then changing his mind for no reason... I don't like how he votes people without writing any reasons and then unvotes saying they are starting to convince them he's town (again, with no reasons). I think it's just confusing.

I am also a little confused why I showed up on so many scum lists today. I could have easily been lynched yesterday, so if all those people thought I was scum, then they should have kept voting me. Coming back to me today with basically no reason (you didn't like my predecessor, who did nothing but flake), seems really weird.

All in all, I think we really need to get into the habit of making cases (sorry xtoxm ). Otherwise it's too easy for scum to throw BS around and confuse us. I am going to go write a post on my thoughts on some people, with hopefully some meatiness. Mmm, meaty.

[elvis_knits]

If LF confirms someone it could mean they get killed by mafia sooner...

But if LF dies before revealing his innocent, then his investigation is lost. Which is much worse, IMO.

I am not understanding this, EK. Are you saying that LF should have revealed his innocent, or are you saying he shouldn't? The second paragraph makes it seem like you believe threat of LF being killed before his investigation is revealed is a strong possibility. This seems to come out of left field, and makes me wonder whether or not you also have information that you are trying to hide. Don't you think that if LF got close to being lynched he would give the town the information?

I think that LF should reveal his innocent at some point before we go to night in the chance that he gets NKed. I don't want the innocent invetsigation to get lost.

I'm not worried about LF getting lynched... I don't find him very suspicious, and I don't think anyone else has said so either. I do think he could get NKed. Maybe there are better targets than LF seeing as he doesn't even have a vote ATM. But he might have a vote in future, and if he can confirm an innocent, that might make him a very good NK target. Especially if some of the PR's are lying scum.

What information do you think I could possibly have have that I am trying to hide?? I can't even imagine a scenario where you come up with this thought.

[elvis_knits]

I'm satisfied with kmd's reasoning about the information. I said to tell me if I was wrong, and you did, so thanks.

vote rock

I have explained why lynching us today is incredibly stupid. You should be looking to lynch whoever you think is one of BG's buddies today, if I cannot change your opinion on BG's alignment.

I think that BG is EK's partner and so that is why EK has been attempting to protect you by agreeing with some of your less sensible posts.

unvote vote EK

Please back this up.

[elvis_knits]

I'm satisfied with kmd's reasoning about the information. I said to tell me if I was wrong, and you did, so thanks.

vote rock

I have explained why lynching us today is incredibly stupid. You should be looking to lynch whoever you think is one of BG's buddies today, if I cannot change your opinion on BG's alignment.

I think that BG is EK's partner and so that is why EK has been attempting to protect you by agreeing with some of your less sensible posts.

unvote vote EK

Please back this up.

You have to back up the comment that "EK has been attempting to protect xtoxm by agreeing with some of your less sensible points."

Otherwise, nobody can see if they agree with you, and I can't respond to your claims.

[elvis_knits]

I think that BG is EK's partner and so that is why EK has been attempting to protect you by agreeing with some of your less sensible posts.

First, BG is my partner. You site our interaction (or my interraction with BG through xtoxm) as evidence. Which you don't back up by the way.

But you think they are scum together.

You think BG would bus like that?

It's irrelevent, as EK wasn't lynched. It is a plausible action for either town or scum - town wagonning, scum distancing. That is why it is null.

Then you have no explanation for why BG would have bandwagonned me, so you say it doesn't matter if BG is sucm or not. Well, then, you can't point to the fact that you think we're partners as evidence that I'm scum. You've just destroyed your own case.

[elvis_knits]

reborn should also stop kissing STD's a**.

[elvis_knits]

reborn should also stop kissing STD's a**.

QFT

So why have you been doing it?

I notice he replaced into the game being very against you. At a certain point you stopped arguing and started kissing his booty. Buddying up?

[elvis_knits]

Tbh I can't really see Reborn being scum.

Your opinions change with the wind.

[elvis_knits]

This is why if there is lover scum its probally xtoxm, mixed with a few things I know. There is a low enough chance at lover scum though right now to hold of lynching them for at least a day. They really shouldnt be getting looked at right now, people like GW, RF, Dragon and even Kloud/EK are better.

But Rock is scum.

Is there anything in rock's play that makes you think he's scum, or it just from babygirl's bandwagon-hopping?

[elvis_knits]

I'm still here, I didn't "flake."

xtoxm kept asking me in night chat if I had any powers, that's why I didn't respond to him. Why he would ask me that as town is beyond me. Between that and his scummy play, I'm starting to think that he is more than likely scum. I was obviously hoping that wasn't the case, but it looks like we need to be lynched at some point.

I do have a power that I should claim though: I am a watcher. I targeted LF last night and was told that he performed no night action.

vote llamafluff

OMG simulpost.

So you're a lover AND a watcher? Is that even possible? I'll have to think about this, but I don't know if I've ever heard of a role like this with two powers. It makes me very suspicious of you.

[elvis_knits]

Good call reborn!

The Watcher is a somewhat common information role that can target a person at night and learn who targeted that person the same night.

The role can be contrasted with the Tracker, who tracks a player to see who they target, rather than who targets them.

It sounds like rock tried to fake tracker, but said watcher.

vote rocktansky

[elvis_knits]

Rock is a complete idiot, no matter his alignment.

BG told me she was a standard lover.

And he can see our conversation.

Wow, it's starting to like like he might be scum...

But my point stands...We should lynch other scum before us...

In my mind, rock is certain scum at this point. So, it might be good to have talks about other people and keep scum hunting. But I like the idea of lynching certain scum today, even if you are a townie and have to die too. Sorry.

[elvis_knits]

Rock... so you're saying the mod screwed up your pm and called you a watcher when you are actually a tracker?

I don't buy it.

Even if possible I have never heard of a person with a double role like that, lover and some other power. Has anyone ever seen that?? Because I sure haven't.

[elvis_knits]

Ok, so every way I look at it, I was wrong, and my lover is scum

I'd still rather lynch someone else today, though, tbh.

In the very least, wait for LF to say what he's got to say.

I agree we should wait to see what LF has to say, and Xtoxm should get some last words.

I will miss you xtoxm, even though you brought a bandwagon on me for no reason! I admire your aggressive, crazy play.

[elvis_knits]

I kinda feel sorry for Kmd going to all that effort, lol.

I agree. Poor kmd!

[elvis_knits]

For the other 2 scum, I would have to say STD and Kloud.

I agree because kmd and GW are looking town.

LF should definitely give his innocent now, because chances of him being the NK just went up since rock tried to frame him and failed.

[elvis_knits]

vote GW

Should we talk at all about who else we think is el scumo?

I think STD. Not a lot of "tells" on him or anything like that. Mostly that many other people have or can (through giving night actions) prove themselves innocent. Also, I thought STD was a little flip-floppy about whether or not he wanted to lynch the lovers (before we knew rock was def scum).

I guess RF could be scum. There is the "safe claim" comment. But other than that, I have gotten a strong town read from her at times.

Llama - town for the way he has acted. Plue rockscum wanted to frame him.

reborn - despite how much some of his comments annoy me (and vice versa I expect), I think he's town. It seems that he is an inventor for sure from kmd confirmation. I think scum inventor is low probability. Possible. But prob not.

IG - not very active yesterday. His claim makes sense for cleveland to be a BG though.

Kloud - I forget what I thought of him... I have ot go back and see. He's possible scumo.

OH.

And I remember the part where rock named his sucm buddies yesterday. Everyone in uproar. I've had people do that in games before. It's not against the rules I think. Atleast I know I have had games go on from that point because of the WIFOM aspect. I mean, sometimes people purposely say an inno is their scum buddy. I dunno. I think rock said STD, am I right? Well, I actually do suspect STD most, but that's not why. Unless it's subconsciously.

[elvis_knits]

Also, Yes, I'm saying that I got a result as if I simply had not been blocked from using my ability.

You're L-1 now I think.

So, claim, and give these "results."

[elvis_knits]

Oops, okay, I see it now...

He says he's quag, watcher.

I remind us all:

The Watcher is a somewhat common information role that can target a person at night and learn who targeted that person the same night.

And he says he targetted IG both nights and nobody went after IG. Well, duh. There's no need for mafia to target IG, when they can just kill whoever, and if IG is protecting them, IG would die. Right? So esentially, GW made a big miscalculation in watching IG, or he is faking these results because faking anything else would get too complicated and prehaps "out" GW.

I don't like the results.

And I can think of no other reason we didn't have a kill N1 that GW being jailkept. I repeat: I could not have prevented a NK on N1 (or any night). I think everyone else also said they could not have prevented a kill. So the only explanation is GW was prevented from killing by LF's jailkeeping.

[elvis_knits]

If GW is town, that means GW was the NK target N1.

How probable do we think that is?

I think they would try one of the claimed power roles. Anyone?

[elvis_knits]

Okay, so GW was the kill target night 1.

Also, we have seven left.

I think I should probably accept that reborn is not scum. I mean, I really want to ignore all reason and attack him again (it feels so good), but I don't think he's mafia. He has proven he's inventor and I think chances of scum inventor are pretty low.

LF is also town. GW as dead town proves that his jailkeeping protected GW from death N1.

We prob have 3 scum, with one dead in rocktanksy, we have 2 of kloud, RF, and STD as mafia.

(If you're not me, you may have to include me in the above list... but I don't need to).

I'm going to have a look back and see who I think is more likely to be scumzor from those three.

[elvis_knits]

I thought we had seven left... but then when you said it was lylo, I looked again and it's 6 left. With probably 2 scum, I guess that would be lylo, right?

[elvis_knits]

Correct, and my action last night resulted in a RB so that makes someone semi-confirmed, but I do realize there are multiple scum. I would prefer to have Kloud claim first and popcorn from there, but any order works I guess.

Whoever you RB'ed last night could not have made the kill but they could still be mafia.

[elvis_knits]

Also, am I correct in thinking you still don't have a vote?? I think tonight (assuming we lynch correctly), you have to perform a specific action and turn yourself into vanilla with a vote.

[elvis_knits]

That was @ LF...

[elvis_knits]

yes, choices, please?

[elvis_knits]

Hmmmm, I was thinking whoever was Meg was probably scum...

I have to think about it all though. It's pretty interesting all the power roles we have going on in this game, and how rock faked watcher and said tracker... and then GW really was a watcher and now kloud claims tracker. The mind boggles.

LF, any chance you blocked kloud last night?

[elvis_knits]

Some questions I have about stuff I want to look up (I'm posting it now because I'm afraid I might forget before I wade back through previous days looking for info... there's so much to look at it's a little like needle in a haystack):

1)What was kloud's reaction to Rock's fake claim (and maybe reaction to GW's claim)? Since his role is similar I wonder if he said anything that would make it look improbable that he is a watcher. Don't remember off the top of my head...

2)reborn sent RF a death ray? Didn't we talk about NOT inventing a death ray? I guess it doesn't matter if we're sure reborn is town. (See? I keep wanting to attack...)

Reborn, did you send RF a death ray because you thought she was town?

[elvis_knits]

I do think RF is town, yes.

I actually do too but I'm trying to be open minded as I don't want to be fooled.

[elvis_knits]

Probally, that might be good to clarify with the mod if we are serious about trying this.

I can not confirm or deny the existence of any role or claim made.

Curses. I think that the action is successful as long as reborn doesnt get blocked though. I am almost ready to say "lets lynch Kloud", but want to give him one last post to lay down his thoughts.

My thoughts:

> I believe that everyone should do as RF suggested and provide a statement, short and specific, that deals with alignment. Once all the statements are made, I think it would be best that everyone vote for who they want me to use the device on, and I will provide the results.

Use your device on STD.

>I am not really understanding why you all seem to be so certain I am scum. Are there any specific cases, or are you just basing it off of the fact that I claimed tracker? I would like an answer to this, for I would like some peace of mind that there was logical reason behind my lynch as opposed to speculation.

Reborn is confirmed as an inventor. Allignment is unknown, but seems likely town. LF is confirmed JOAT. Again, allignment unconfirmed but likely town. That leaves me to know that 2 of STD, RF, and you Kloud are mafia.

The claim of tracker is a bit suspicious because of hte whole botched fake claim of rock, and because GW was a watcher.

Also, your results basically tell us nothing since you've mostly been tracking claimed vanilla.

I find it interesting that neither RF or EK have come forth to admit that they did not visit anyone, which makes me feel uncertain about both of them right now. We have two players that could prove that I am a power role, but neither of them have yet to do so. I personally would like a chance to prove my role, seeing as how almost every other claimed role has had a chance to do so throughout this game. If come tomorrow my results turn up invalid, then lynch me.

Claiming vanilla = admitting you didn't visit anyone. It's assumed. Vanilla doesn't have night actions. And it does not prove you are a power role for us to say "yes, I made no action! kloud is soooooo right! He must be a real tracker."

And I think implying me and RF are scummy for not trying to confirm you (which we can't do), is very scummy on your part.

[elvis_knits]

I have knee-jerk reaction to never do a no-lynch... but I know it is smart in some situations. I have to think about it and reread some of the strategy posts because I am bad at that kind of thing and my brain is tired anyway.

But I also agree that one or both of kloud/STD are scum. I really think STD is scum, regardless.

Do we want to contemplate the possibility of scum having power roles? What I mean is, that reborn or LF or kloud could be telling the truth about having a power role, but also be scum? I don't know if that would change my thoughts on each of them, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. I dunno, I guess I would still think reborn and LF are town and kloud is scum. But, anyone else have thoughts?

[elvis_knits]

farside did say she's a bastard mod. Also, don't you thikn the scum might have a power role given the number of town power roles?

[elvis_knits]

I actually don't think you're scum anymore, and I wasn't referring specifically to you even though you are one of the power roles. I am speaking generally about all the power roles so you can stop being defensive now.

Do you have any position about any of the other power roles being scum or do you want to imply that I have half a brain again?

[elvis_knits]

Am I supposed to post a sentence for the LD like this:

I am pro-town and I like puppies.

Still thinking about mechanics. I guess no-lynch is the way to go, but it really goes against my grain. I really think STD is scum... but I guess it's best not to gamble on the chance that I'm wrong and we lose the game.

[elvis_knits]

If kloud is scum, how do any of these results help us, today, or tomorrow?

[elvis_knits]

Because townkloud looking pretty much impossible to me at this point. townkloud confirming townRF means STD and me are scumo. (Barring some craziness with LF being scum, which I don't believe.).

I don't expect everyone else to be able to believe I am 100% town. So I just want you to ponder the possibility that kloud is scum, and realize that this plan may not help us AT ALL. Well, I guess we get RB from LF tonight, and maybe another invention. But both those things might end up doing s**t for us, and tomorrow we'll be one townie down, and dealing with more fake results from kloud.

[elvis_knits]

I think we should lynch kloud today and then we'll still have time for RBs and inventions and all that good stuff since kloud is scum.

vote kloud

[elvis_knits]

Sounds like only lie detector was day use... which kloud may have lied about.

[elvis_knits]

I think we should lynch kloud today and then we'll still have time for RBs and inventions and all that good stuff since kloud is scum.

vote kloud

You seem to be pushing awfully hard for my lynch based off of nothing (that I can see) at this point. I find this to be very telling, as you seem to be getting progressively more aggressive and insistent that I am scum, but provide no reasoning for believing so other than claiming I am giving false results--which can be easily disproved with a no lynch.

HELLO!

Your "results" say that I am scum. I am not scum, so I know you are lying scum-o.

[elvis_knits]

Do you see this as a scum buddy interaction? If so, then we were being very obvious. I just want everyone to ask themselves how likely they think it would be for scum buddies to act like this:

But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

You're my favorite.

<3

[elvis_knits]

You mean, why did kloud die with only 3 votes on him? I don't know. I voted him but as far as I know, my vote should only have been worth one. Are you saying someone sent in a daykill or something?

Anyway... LF, you must have blocked the scum... unless the scum sent in a no-kill which they might have done I guess. Do you think you should reveal your choice yet?

Also, I got an invention but I don't think it is useful during the day (despite reborn's best effort). Should I claim what it is?

[elvis_knits]

Checked and I cannot use it until the night.

[elvis_knits]

I'm sort of confused what you're saying...

So, you RBed RF N3, when you periously said you used a different action (I have to look that up). So you did have a vote yesterday but didn't want scum to know, so that you could pretend you were usingyour RB last night. Then they would send a no-kill in hopes that you would think your RB prevented a kill and lynch the wrong person. Hmmm. I like it.

I'm a little confused how you think the death ray mahcine worked... but I do think that if RF is scum, she could have totally been lying about what her invention does. Because reborn just names them but farside interprets them. So, RF could have been lying.

[elvis_knits]

I want STD to claim again. Something is bothering me about that.

[elvis_knits]

What did you say was your action on N3 when you were lying?

[elvis_knits]

There must have been some action associated with one of the inventions that the scum lied about and affected kloud, right? That's the only thing I can think caused kloud's death. The only inventions that could have been was RF's or kloud's, right?

We don't know that kloud was telling the truth about his invention, what the action really was or how he used it. Although I don't think he would want to kill himself with it...lol. An accident? A gambit gone wrong?

[elvis_knits]

I'm Brian. Hot Dog. I'm a townie.

Thanks. You did not say hot dog last time. It seems everyone has some sort of title like that, and the fact that you only said Brian, vanilla, last time, was bothering me. Why didn't you say the hot dog part last time?

[elvis_knits]

My theory is that Kloud was a scum who needed one less vote to kill. It would make sense for Meg and maybe for balancing. It's possible that he didn't even know it. It's called something, but I forgot at the moment. I'll try to look it up (it's on MBF's flash thing).

This makes a lot of sense.

[elvis_knits]

I want to look back through kloud's posts to see if I see a connection to anyone. I don't have time do it right ATM. I just started and was laughing because he said QFT like a billion times. I guess saying QFT in excess is a scum tell...

But I do want to look through his posts a bit more.

[elvis_knits]

How's this? Today we lynch STD. Tonight I make myself into a Super Saint and E_K hammers me tomorrow, or vice versa. That way we've blown up all possible scum and there will be 1 person left. Would that work? I am not good at math.

I think this is a good plan. I'm willing to go with it. I don't really think RF is mafia, although LF's suspicions are causing me to give her another look. This plan would kill her, so if she's mafia, she's dead and town wins. So, that would be fine, even if I have to die by supersaint. Blaze of glory!

Actually, the fact that RF is willing to do this makes me think she's not mafia, because it makes it impossible for her to win. And makes me more confident that STD is scum.

I do want to think on this for a bit, because we have to accept that LF and reborn are town, and basically hand them the game if they are scum. I don't really think that either are scum, but I want to think a bit more. The invention that reborn gave me leads me to believe that he is trying to help the town, and that he wanted it to be used during the day. However, the machine does not work as he intended, not during the day, and not the action it seems he was looking for.

Also, the invention may have some bearing on tomorrow, if STD is not scum and the game is not over. I don't think I should claim what it does as I want scum to be in the dark. But it's a pretty powerful action.

[elvis_knits]

I also am wondering how LF and reborn feel about each other. Do they have any reservations about the other one?

[elvis_knits]

If LF is scum I say good game. BUT why was there no death last night?

I think because scum chose to no kill since they thought LF was using a block last night and hoped that would implicate someone else had been blocked to stop a kill.

[elvis_knits]

I think I'm about ready to take the plunge and vote STD.

[elvis_knits]

^^^lol

I wish reborn was a little more involved during this day. I guess it's because of the nagging feelings I have had for him all game. But judging from the invention he sent I really think he meant for it to help the town.

[elvis_knits]

GG all! And thanks farside for a super-fun game. The activity was awesome, and I had a good time with the players.

I of course wish I wasn't lynched though! I really was only asking reborn to contribute more, as he significantly decreased in activity. He took it as an attack on him I guess.

I think this was a great town win though. GG guys!