Has anyone tried to do a Watchmen mafia? That'd be nuts.
Mini 670-Kirby Mafia OVER!
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DraketheFake Goon
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DraketheFake Goon
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DraketheFake Goon
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Everybody ready? I'm going to do that thing where I quote somebody's post and pick out the smallest possible detail that aroused my suspicion to the general incredulity of the rest of everybody:
I got one of those tingles when I re-read this post. Its a tiny detail, I know, but it's awfully specific considering it was in the guise of an early-game joke post. Implied knowledge of the set-up... throwing out two possible roles this early in the game... it's got me feeling all twisty.Natirasha wrote:Oh, I'm King Dedede, and Vi is Waddle-Dee. Together, we make upamafia.
Unvote, Vote: Natirasha-
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DraketheFake Goon
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No, but I do find the implication of multiple scum groups with prior discussion thereof or prompting very unsettling. I also don't like it when players make alignment/role assumptions in theme games where certain characters are all but guaranteed to show up because it steers players toward trying to outguess the mod on the set-up.Save the Dragons wrote:Do you suspect that King Dedede and Waddle-Dee are a mafia group, and that Natirasha is revealing his alignment?-
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DraketheFake Goon
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DraketheFake Goon
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To be fair, wolf's post doesn't present itself as a shining example of analysis. But yes, I also find the idea of laying "bandwagon traps" slightly ridiculous when the content level is so low in general and especially when the person laying the trap decides that not posting until there are 5-6 votes on him is a good idea.Save The Dragons wrote:
Seriously?Natirasha wrote:Unvote, Vote: wlframnhart. Blatant bandwagoning. You took it hook, line, and sinker.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Microphone_Kirby wrote:DraketheFake thinks that Nat implied knowledge of the set-up, and voted him for it. He also seems to think there's more than one Scum Group.
Just to be clear: I do not necessarily think there is more than one scum group. I merely suggested that it made me suspicious that another player would imply that there were: which, in my opinion, the addition of the word "a" in that sentence did. I also think it's generally suspicious when players try and tie characters from a theme game to a particular alignment. In general, guessing at the set-up instead of using content is a scum move, an I furthermore agree with your sentiment about appearing scummy in order to scumhunt.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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In order:Vi wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been guessing at the set-up ever since Post 57? Seriously, you've been on that obvious joke claim almost religiously. I even explained how unlikely it was that the claim was remotely truthful. (Posts 58 and 66)
1. Correction: I havenotbeen guessing at the set-up. The only person who's mentioned anything about the set-up so far has been Natirasha, unarguably about the inclusion of two roles and more debatably about the existence of two scum groups. I merely pointed out that this was true.
2. I've been on it "religiously" because it's suspicious and I still don't like the way he's responded.
3. I know you explained it, and I don't necessarily believe it's the gospel truth, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be scrutinizing suspect play.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Whoa, what? For one, as has been pointed out, there are more effective ways of pressuring lurkers: we can have them prodded or replaced. For two, what are you honestly expecting to get out of pressuring lurkers? You yourself not a page and a half ago:Jebus wrote:Thought: How about we run up a bandwagon on a lurker to like L-2 or something. Pressure. In particular, Micro-Kirby seems like a good start, I think.
So you're expecting somebody else in the game to find interesting things for you? Or are you going to pressure lurkers until they come back, echo your sentiments, and tell them that's not good enough?Jebus wrote:There's a bit of a problem: I really don't have anything to say >.<
Absolutely nothing in this game has struck me as anything of interest.
For three and four, it seems a little odd to pick L-2, and it seems odd to pick Microphone_Kirby as your example. Pressure can be achieved without any specific number of votes, and Microphone_Kirby has not been even close to a lurker. If you meant that you wanted to pressure Microphone_Kirby for his awkward foray into meta-discussion on the last page, that would have been one thing.
To recap, Jebus:
1. thinks there is absolutely nothing in this game worth talking about.
2. thinks the way to remedy that is to arbitrarily pressure a lurker.
3. thinks L-2 is the magic button past which people begin to post content.
4. thinks that Microphone_Kirby of all the players in the game is the "lurker" worth pressuring.
Well, which is it? Do we pressure lurkers, or do we pressure Microphone_Kirby? Care to give any reason at all? Bandwagoning doesn't work unless you give the target a reason why they should come in and defend him or herself. Speaking of which.Jebus wrote:@Micro-Kirby- I didn't mean you were lurking, I meant that you should be the pressure-wagon target. My thoughts tend to get jumbled >.<
Unvote, Vote: Jebus.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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We all wait with baited breath.Save The Dragons wrote:Vote: DraketheFake
More later! (I hope...)
In the meantime:
This is terrible logic.Save The Dragons wrote:Jebus is too obvious right now. Scum don't hand themselves over to the town.
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This game would be going far better for everyone if people would highlight their suspicions and then vote. Jebus, you only just posted specific reasons why you were suspicious of Microphone_Kirby, and they weren't very strong by your own admission. If you wanted to express suspicion, your job was to point out whatever made you suspicious, then either vote for or FoS him at the very least. Seeking approval from the rest of the players in the game only makes you look suspicious yourself.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Save The Dragons wrote:I feel that DTF has been jumping onto wagons. When he jumps onto N's wagon, he says he finds the smallest detail, which makes him feel uncomfortable.
1. I've only voted for one player who already had any votes.
2. I added new, specific reasons why I found his post suspicious.
I wasn't necessarily expecting it would go anywhere, because I was expecting that Natirasha would come back and participate in the game. Instead, he came back in with his "trap" claim and then went on limited access. I never expect that my votes are going to lead directly to lynches because I'm not that conceited and I'm willing to actually listen to what players say in their defense. Sort of the whole point, I thought.Save The Dragons wrote:but not going anywhere here:
DraketheFake wrote:To paraphrase STD, I'm not necessarily expecting this will go anywhere, but my vote will be well served until he gets back and I can see how he proceeds.
Of course Natirasha's play is still suspicious, but I went to pretty great lengths to describe why lynching lurkers was a bad call before we had a deadline. I think Jebus is playing suspiciously, putting himself out there and then immediately withdrawing at the first sign of pressure, and like I just said, it doesn't bode well that he only just brought up specific reasons on Microphone_Kirby.Save The Dragons wrote:And then afterward, he jumps onto Jebus. Is N's play still suspicious? Is there anyone else you find, or found suspicious?
Whaaaaaaaa? You're suspicious of a player forVi wrote:@Ku_F: I'm voting wolframnhart because of the rather terrible logic he endorsed in joining the Natirasha wagon,and I'm more suspicious of him because he's not pursuing the more blatant Jebus wagon.I'm waiting on wolframnhart to answer me now actually.notbandwagoning? That is a mindboggling leap of logic. That's, uh, that's downright scummy logic.
Unvote, Vote: Vi-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Welp, touche. I'd argue that two votes does not necessarily a bandwagon make, and that also my reasons for voting Jebus were far more specific and detailed than were DoS's.Save The Dragons wrote:The first quote is where he voted, the second quote gives precedent for a bandwagon. You voted Jebus on the 25th.
That there's two kinds of "bandwagoning" and that mine was the good kind.Save The Dragons wrote:
Sure. Your point?DraketheFake wrote:2. I added new, specific reasons why I found his post suspicious.
I mean, given that there were only three votes on Jebus there's technically also a chance that there weren't scum on the Jebus wagon and he's still a townie. As long as we're being thorough.Save The Dragons wrote:I don't know if you can have your cake and eat it too with this one.Either Jebus is scum, or scum are pushing a wagon on Jebus.I mean, I suppose it's possible that scum don't like winning and would force a wagon on themselves day 1 when it would be easier to pursue better options.
But I'm confused as to why that was your response to what I said. Vi said that he was suspicious of wolf for his vote on Natirasha earlier, and that his suspicions were heightened when wolf didn't jump on the Jebus wagon, as if it were somehow scummy not to bandwagon somebody. It's particularly bad logic because if wolfhadvoted for Jebus, it could have strengthened Vi's case that wolf was a bandwagoner. To me, it seems like Vi is the one seeking to have his cake and eat it too, by attacking a player for not doing something he would have also attacked him for doing.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Vi wrote:The "new, specific reasons" for the "good kind" of "bandwagoning" Natirasha, if you're talking about the word 'a' in N's post, are not terribly impressive... and if it's something else, I missed it.
You missed the part about his speculation about roles/alignments in the game.
How is it useful to boil your own vote down into an OMGUS? Why are you letting Vi make your case for you?Natirasha wrote:Anyways, um...yeah...Jebus looks scummy, however I prefer my OMGUS.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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So then you actuallyNatirasha wrote:Well, if I change my vote over, it goes all "lololbandwagonerdielolol" And I'm a horrible orator.dothink that Jebus is the better play? You'd just rather sit on an early-game OMGUS with 3 days and counting to deadline for the sake of your own hide?
Vi wrote:So let's see. You voted Natirasha because
*of some "strange posts"
*I was too lazy to change a vote in what amounted to the rv stage
*I "defended" Natirasha against DtF (later rebutted)
I like how these reasons have more to do with ME than him, which was Natirasha's point.
Whereas Jebus has
*some "strange posts"
*ordered a bandwagon on a "lurking" non-lurker (quoted for truth)
*backpedaled to the extreme (see 177)
Yet you say nothing warrants a "true vote yet", and you make a really short post during the first half of the Jebus focus saying "that's lame unvote FoS Jebus".
Also, is it just me, or are you only posting content when I prod you?
This goes double for you. If the case against Jebus is so compelling, then why are you singling out one other player who isn't voting that way? Better: why aren't you voting for Jebus? Using a case against one player as reason to attack another player is some backward, scummy logic.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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I don't like the way the Jebus case is being used against other players in this game. If we think Jebus is scum, let's lynch Jebus. Trying for a lynch on wolf for not voting Jebus before we go after Jebus is a bad play, and in some cases - as I've tried to illustrate - downright suspicious play.
But anyway.Unvote, Vote: Jebus.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Didn't see you there.Save The Dragons wrote:And we're officially screwed.
Do you think Jebus hasn't acted suspiciously at all? In what ways has wolf acted scummily prior to his decision not to vote for Jebus? Do those suspicions outweigh, in your mind, your suspicions of Jebus? Are you still sticking by the "too scummy" defense of Jebus?-
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DraketheFake Goon
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DraketheFake Goon
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Right, butVi wrote:I still think STD is letting Jebus off easily.you'reletting Jebus off easily by not voting for him! Voting wolf first makes NO SENSE because you think that Jebus has played suspiciously and you're trying to establish a link between him and Jebus by saying that wolf not voting for Jebus makes wolf suspicious. You're putting the horse before the cart. If you think Jebus is scummy, and wolf scummy for being reluctant to vote him, then you lynch Jebus first and proceed from there.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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DraketheFake Goon
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Yes, you're so clever.Kmd4390 wrote:Verbal
He was town and has been replaced.
Current Read=100% Town
And I don't like your reads either.
Then I guess he probably shouldn't have said that he was? Read it again. He goes so far as to say that if wolf had voted Jebus, it would have "legitimized" both votes in his mind.Kmd4390 wrote:Vi wasn't suspicious of Wolf for not bandwagoning.
Because everybody who wants wolf is doing it for crappy reasons and they're all using the fact that Jebus is so scummy as one of the reasons that wolf is suspicious.Kmd4390 wrote:You really seem to be pushing a lynch on Jebus over Wolf.
With two days to go, though, I'm hoping I can swing a new player who picqued my suspicion.
Unvote, Vote: Kmd4390
1. Made a lot of dependent cases on everybody he finds to be scum (if X is scum, then I'll look at Y). Also used meta to cozy up to Save The Dragons, one of the more active players who has thus far escaped suspicion.
2. Replaced in and immediately made a point of mentioning how townie he was. Attempted to disguise as a joke.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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I'm not an asshole, but...Vi wrote:DraketheFake, while I abide by a maxim of "Classy, Not Trashy" in general, I've a nagging temptation to plainly tell you to Shut Up.
No it wouldn't. I actually let him off easy. The guy tried to point out, offhand, that he was a townie. There's no good reason to do that. If you're gonna claim, claim (see: Natirasha). If you're going to pussyfoot around the issue and disguise your "townieness" as a joke, then I'll go ahead and call you (Kmd in this case, not you Vi) out on a distracting play at the very least and a scummy one some of the time.Vi wrote:that would be a poor attempt to twist his words.
Right, but again: YOU brought up the fact that you thought Jebus was a better wagon than Nat AND used that as one of your reasons why you kept your vote on wolf. What do you mean, "against the spirit of what you were getting at?" The spirit of what you were getting at when you said that wolf voting for Jebus would have "legitimized" both of those votes? You can't have it both ways, Vi: either you're mainly suspicious of wolf for his initial reasons for voting for Nat (in which case a vote for Jebus shouldn't have done shit), or you're mainly suspicious of wolf for not voting for Jebus, in which case your logic is leaky and your suspicion is weak sauce.Vi wrote:What you have said is technically correct,but against the spirit of what I was getting at.Read it again.
Reading comprehension > selective quotingKmd4390 wrote:Vi wasn't suspicious of Wolf for not bandwagoning. He was suspicious of Wolf for bandwagoning Nat, but not Jebus.
I should also reiterate that I initially voted wolfo based on why he bandwagoned Natirasha.
Nitpicking, but I actually unvoted Jebus, not you.Vi wrote:Paraphrased: "Yeah, I just called this guy out! Wagon plz, saving Vi for later"
Kmd4390 wrote:Um, I see one, maybe two cases like that, and the certain one involves you, of course. As far as STD goes, Kmd actually says that he's more wary than normal of him, not that he's comfy with him.
And then proclaims him "town."
But you got me on the generalizing. The other one I saw was Capricious.
P.S. Your pre-use of the term "chainsaw defense" doesn't make you look less guilty of it.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Hot damn, two whole pages have gone by.
Oh, don't do this. I obviously didn't want you to claim for no reason - I didn't even want you to make your little joke about how townie you were.Kmd4390 wrote:
I hope you aren't actually expecting me to claim right now.DraketheFake wrote:If you're gonna claim, claim (see: Natirasha). If you're going to pussyfoot around the issue and disguise your "townieness" as a joke, then I'll go ahead and call you (Kmd in this case, not you Vi) out on a distracting play at the very least and a scummy one some of the time.
This this this. Funny how Natirasha and Vi again agree on something anti-town.Jebus wrote:FoS: Natarisha, Vi
More day = more discussion. More discussion = more time to form an opinion/get evidence for making a (hopefully) more accurate lynch.
So yeah, I'm much in favor of a deadline extension.
Well, because whereas Kmd seemed to be somewhat in favor of the deadline (saying the replacement would need catch-up time) and wolf and Microphone_Kirby were ambivalent at most, Natirasha straight up said "No" and you - though you tried to hide behind your ambivalence - expressed how little you thought of the ability of the players in the game to do anything with extra time. Which is negative. Which hints at "No." P.S. Not saying you weren't right, look at me for instance. How the time flies.Vi wrote:And the three weeks prior to this have been... what?
I agree more with StD's reason for extending the deadline though. No Lynch (which is basically where we're at right now even with half the lynch requirement) isn't an attractive alternative. Thus, I'll shift to pro-deadline.
@Jebus: Why me and Natirasha, and not Microphone_Kirby? Or wolframnhart? Or Kmd?
Yes I know this. The point is there's no good pro-town reason to claim an alignment, even in joke form.Save The Dragons wrote:Townie is synonymous with pro-town. It does not necessarily mean he's claiming vanilla.
Oh, this is interesting.wolframnhart wrote:@Jebus
Curious, for all the talk that had been done earlier about wanting to lynch a non active player, whom you choose out at the time to be Mic_K, you never voted. Where you waiting to see if that wagon would start before you placed your vote? Because looking at the people not voting (which is you and Ozy because Ku_F is indeed voting on Nat) you haven't voted at all. Any reason to that?
A transcript of wolf's day: got in trouble initially for not voting for Jebus, choosing instead to FoS, and then when it became clear that this was a point of contention, instead of making it official with a vote, he chose to go another route, calling out DragonsofSummer for something similar - that is, not voting for the player (in both cases Jebus) he found scummiest. Unlike wolf, though, who simply "didn't find Jebus scummy enough," DragonsofSummer has an ostensibly pro-town reason for what he did - namely, securing the town a deadline lynch. Then has the gall to... call out Jebus for not voting? Hadn't Jebus sort of admitted that his own suspicion of Microphone_Kirby did not, in his own mind, warrant a vote, sort of like what wolf himself said?
Agreed. Kmd's attack does kind of reek of opportunism, especially considering that he's essentially - once again - attacking DoS for what the eventual case against Jebus turned out to be. The difference is, DoS came out with his reasons after his original confirmed vote, whereas Jebus waited so long to provide those reasons and had to backpedal several times.DragonsofSummer wrote:@Kmd about half the players in this game said they couldn't find anything really scummy right about that time. Why are you singling me out here?
Yes, but since then he's voted for someone else, moved back to voting the original target, and given reasons. It's not like he was trying to skate by on that initial random vote for the purposes of appearing to have been on the lynch tomorrow: he later gave specific reasons.Kmd4390 wrote:But you left an obvious joke vote on without giving any reasoning behind it. The game was clearly out of the joke phase.
Ah, the old "Claim mason, then say whatever ridiculous anti-town thing I want" gambitNatirasha wrote:I hate deadline extensions. I prefer short days, especially since the extension probably won't help.
Yup, you're going to take some deserved heat for this one. You never did vote, and you especially didn't vote for the player you said you wanted to wagon for no particular reason. You haven't even bolded your FoS's of late.Jebus wrote:There wasn't much reason to it at all, actually. And I believe I did vote in one of the next few posts after suggesting the wagon on someone.
You realize you're still voting for DragonsofSummer, right? And that you're voting for DragonsofSummer for being suspicious of Jebus but voting for you at the deadline? So you've basically chosen a glorified OMGUS vote instead of voting for someone you're now aggressively (and correctly) grilling? And now you've led me to make a version of Vi's argument about you being suspicious for not voting for Jebus?wolframnhart wrote:Actually no you didn't vote at all, not even a broken tag vote, you just FoS'd, and those weren't even bolded.
Aw man, right as I was coming around on the wolf wagon.Vi wrote:All right, this is ridiculous.
Ozymandius. Contribute, or get replaced. It's okay if you're having trouble IRL; nothing wrong with that - but we need a lot more than what you're putting out right now.
Jebus. You are not scumhunting, and have made only minimal efforts to do anything in this game while keeping a visible profile. Enough.
Unvote: wolframnhart
Vote: Jebus
This fourth vote should let Jebus qualify as a deadline lynchee.
I agree that Jebus's last post wasn't particularly inspiring, but it's wolf's posts for the past couple of pages that have caught my attention, whereas I think Jebus was correct for being suspicious of any players that wouldn't want a deadline extension. Oh, this dance we do. For now I'm going to
Unvote, Vote: wolframnhart, because that should put him back at three in the event that Vi's vote was similar to DragonofSummer's from earlier in that he merely wants to secure the lynch rather than voting with his heart. Also wouldn't be terribly upset with a Jebus lynch.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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DraketheFake Goon
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I'm actually going to take this one step further. Natirasha, I'd like to know who your partner is. Your actions yesterday were basically the anti-town.
- Only ever voted for townies.
- Posted a suspicious distraction at the beginning of the game.
- "Caught scum" with his post after deciding that it was a trap and not just a joke.
- Advocated against a deadline.
- Claimed under little duress.
- Neglected to vote for Jebus even after admitting he looked scummy.
In the interest of negating some of these suspicions, and also secondarily to avoid a wild goose chase in which we run up whoever your partner is, I think it would be useful to the town if you told us who your partner is/your partner went ahead and told us.
As far as what the final vote count from yesterday tells us:
(I fixed it, DoS originally wasn't credited)Mod wrote:wolframnhart 4: Kmd4390, DraketheFake, Vi, STD
Jebus 3: Microphone_Kirby, Capricious, DoS
DragonsOfSummer 1: wolframnhart
Natirasha 1: Ku_F
Ozymandius 1: Natirasha
Not Voting: Jebus, Ozymandius
The confirmed townies from this group are wolf and Ozy.
Hm. I'll need to dig back through posts to do much more, and I'd like the first part of this post up ASAP, so give me a bit.-
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Supplies!Vi wrote:I am Gooey, his mason partner.
I don't know why he has to be a Mafia Role Cop, if he is in fact any kind of role cop. Then again, I'm still not 100% sure what, if anything, she was joking about to start the day.
In any event, that leaves:
Me
Ku_F
DragonsofSummer
Capricious
Jebus
Save The Dragons
Microphone_Kirby
Kmd4390
Of which 2-4 are likely scum. Better odds, I say.-
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Of course I still find Natirasha's actions scummy, and I didn't like Vi's posts way back when I said I didn't, but 1. It's too early to lynch one of a set of claimed masons, especially when [set-up jockeying alert] one of them claimed a big presumably pro-town role and wasn't counterclaimed, and 2. I think it's ridiculous the amount of hemming and hawing I've seen going on about claimed masons early in games recently. I think Vi's behavior at the deadline was very pro-town, and since he's vouching for Nat at the moment I see no reason to go on a witchhunt even if Nat hasn't seemed to be acting in the town's best interests.Save The Dragons wrote:So, you no longer think Vi and Natirasha are scummy? Does the fact that they're not really confirmed townies put them back on the list or do you think that there's enough to suggest they're not scum?
And who on that list do you think is suspicious?
I've been meaning to do some heavy analysis on several players, including DragonsofSummer and Kmd, and I might add you in there when I get around to it. Capricious and Microphone_Kirby have both seemed various degrees of townie to me so far, but I'll need to look over them again as well.
I do however have work in 6 minutes. Hopefully when I get back I'll be able to make a post before bed.-
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DraketheFake Goon
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Alright, down and dirty time. I'm gonna monkey with the set-up a bit here, and make some *gasp* assumptions, but try and bear with me
Players left in the game:8
DraketheFake
Moriarty147 (Ku_F)
Natirasha
DragonsofSummer
Save The Dragons
Capricious
Kmd4390
Microphone_Kirby
Among these players, we have one claim: Nat, a mason with the defunct Vi. That leaves 7 players. We also have three other dead players, all vanilla townies. Given the fact of at least 4 vanilla townies and 2 masons (though I haven't ruled out the possibility of them having an additional ability, mind you), that leaves 6 roles left in the game, a possible 2 to 4 of which are scum roles (assuming a normal-ish, balanced set-up), which would leave another 2 to 4 other possible town-aligned roles. I for one cannot possibly imagine a balanced set-up with four aligned scum, four vanilla townies, two masons and two X-factor roles that would be so lopsided as it is right now, and since we've had only one kill a night I think we can safely rule out three aligned scum and an SK (as that would mean we have a dumb-lucky roleblocker or a psychic doctor or something else extraordinary). I suppose it's also possible that the SK simply hasn't killed. That would probably be bad for us.
So: if we assume, for the moment, that there are a maximum of 3 scum in the game, then that means that - barring some kind of successful protect or other nightkill prevention tonight - we are in lynch or lose. Therefore I think it prudent that we consider a massclaim. P.S. Those good with numbers might be able to intuit that I, ah, got the ball rolling on that one.
In the meantime: (up to) 3 of the following 7 players are scum:
- Me
- Moriarty47
- DoS
- STD
- Capricious
- Kmd
- Microphone_Kirby
Those are close to 50% odds. I'm going to start with Microphone_Kirby, and I'm going to do it in a different post, because this one is ponderous enough.
P.P.S. Sorry again for being late. Nothing but activity from here on out.-
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DraketheFake Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 918
- Joined: September 1, 2008
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DraketheFake Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 918
- Joined: September 1, 2008
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DraketheFake Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 918
- Joined: September 1, 2008
I'm really, really sorry I had to be replaced, and that I haven't been in touch. The car accident led to number of other complications that have kept me away from computers and just struggling to get home for the weekend, let alone back to school, and I'm only just now coming back into reliable internet access, though my free time won't pick up any with having to go back to the state where the accident was for various things. Thanks to MafiaSSK for trying to give me a chance, and sorry again guys.
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