Mini 627 - Riverworld Smalltown - Over!!!

[NabakovNabakov]

I like to keep my options open

/Beezh

[NabakovNabakov]

Will King's results tell at what time and in what capacity the subject was targeted by each player?

[NabakovNabakov]

Vote: Alabaska J

He can handle it.

[NabakovNabakov]

Are people on the Winter wagon voting him for his No Lynch vote? That would seems to be the obvious answer, but Alabaska and Twomz didn't cite it. Also odd that Hermit called his hatred of D1 NL's "irrational". Does he have any rational reasons for hating them? Has he considered how they apply to this game? Does he just hate them because he's supposed to?

Looking at the number of nightactions we have here and the absolute impossibility of fakeclaiming, it seems this game will be played just as much at night as during the day. The harm a No Lynch does to a town varies inversely with the complexity of the game and the number of town power-roles (i.e. the more vanilla the game, the more they hurt). It would be indeed "irrational" to completely dismiss the notion that the town might be better served by having all of its members around to act without at least putting it to discussion.

Also, I'm leaning towards "discuss but don't reveal final choices"

[NabakovNabakov]

^^(Previewed and agreed, why couldn't Winter have done VV himself?)

As it is there is a 33% chance a bad guy has an extra kill (i.e. armlx is scum or SK)*

Keep in mind that there is no endless fountain of vig** in this game. The JoaT has two, the bomb would have had one if selected. I could absorb the JoaT kills if armlx dies. If Claus is protected and targeted by a kill, he could concievably gain one or two more. No more after that.

*This does not take into account the relative townieness/scuminess of armlx or anybody else in the game.

**That's right, I said vi

g

.

[NabakovNabakov]

Just be aware that if Claus is targetted by the jailkeeper tonight (or any other night for that matter), he won't be able to absorb any more abilities.

Also, where has Pug89 gone? Can we have a

prod

?

[NabakovNabakov]

Note to self: Be careful with syntax while discussing setup.

Unvote; Vote: TheHermit

I know nobody really wants to hear that King might be scum, but King might be scum. His backpedal on irrationally opposing No Lynches feels wonky. (In other words, I hate it when people tell me not to make a big deal of things)

[NabakovNabakov]

His backpedal on irrationally opposing No Lynches feels wonky.

No, I can vouch for his meta claim. We both came from the same site (also Claus ^_^) - the issue of Day 1 No Lynches does crop up fairly often and he is usually the one to explain why they're a bad idea.

So why hasn't he done any explaining here?

[NabakovNabakov]

It's too soon to talk seriously about no-lynch. While it may be what the day comes to, there's still time for discussion.

Fair enough

Unvote; Vote: Megatron

Why is the first time you've had anything to do with something resembling a non-setup discussion a call for discussion?


Good for town

Informed lynch
No Lynch
Uninformed lynch

Good for scum

[NabakovNabakov]

4.) Day lasts until one of the following happens: a player has a majority of votes, no lynch has a majority of votes, or the deadline comes.

Days have an automatic three week deadline. This is mostly not revocable (I might consider an extension to find a replacement). Please consider the deadline as a limit, not the target.

Nights last will last about 72 hours.

The more you know.

[NabakovNabakov]

I stress the distinction between an informed and an uninformed lynch. So we're not saying the same thing. I also vote, so were certainly not

doing

the same thing.

And just so you're aware, pooh-poohing a No-Lynch and talking about discussion while not making any discussion contributes to "Uninformed lynch".

[NabakovNabakov]

I don't like the Megatron wagon. Seeing how nolynch is the anathema of many players' existence almost everywhere else on the site day one, I can see why he would say what he would say.

Any player who's been paying attention would know better than to give the knee-jerk reaction.

Also, I like how Alabaska has been opposed to the last two wagons but continues to vote shaft.ed for bafflingly weak reasons.


Inventor should consider gifting players with no other night-action (double-lifer, double-voter), but how much you trust any given player should also factor into the bargain (especially when using the OSNKI)

[NabakovNabakov]

FoS: NabakovNabakov

Nabnab I was indifferent to the TheHermit wagon before, but not against it. I didn't understand the Megatron wagon as it looked even weaker than my vote on shaft.ed (which, admittedly,

was

weak). Your post about me seems almost unfair.

Ok fine, indifference is not the same thing as opposition (I just lumped the two together for economy of style), but by publicly stating your indifference to the wagon you can contribute to its losing momentum.

And what's not to understand about Megatron? He hasn't posted game content the entire day, and even his technical content has been kind of sketchy. He doesn't want a No Lynch under the condition of discussion, but he doesn't create discussion. Doesn't that inconsistency at least deserve some pressure?

In short, I continue to find your standards of evidence to be massively wonky.

[NabakovNabakov]

I don't see how wanting to make a day as long as it needs to be is a bad thing, much less how it could be construed as anti-town.

You're acting anti-town because we wouldn't need a day at all if everybody was playing like you are.

Let's try this:

Is there anybody you are suspicious of? Why?
How do you feel about the various "wagons"/singular votes that are going around?

[NabakovNabakov]

^^ Well, it could be that it was the third post in a row to vote Hermit.

...dude, once again, it wasn't a tantrum, what is it with you?

I'm just saying it how it is. Hell, I knew when I picked the role that it paints a huge target on my back.

Is there anybody you are suspicious of? Why?
How do you feel about the various "wagons"/singular votes that are going around?

there's only so much you can get from random wagons. No one's gotten twitchy or sputtery yet, and although there were a few real flimsy votes, I tend to have a higher threshold for flimsy votes on day 1, unless they end up getting someone lynched.

Couple of things in my notes so far, I'll go through it some time today, have to leave soon.

So you're not suspicious of

anybody

?

[NabakovNabakov]

Maybe we decide who to Jail now? I really don't want to risk a randomized choice/uninformed b/c of a replacement issue.

If nobody's in the role because of a replacement issue, nothing we decide in thread will matter. If somebody replaces Megatron, they can use their own judgment. Stop fishing.

@Claus: Pug =/= PBug

[NabakovNabakov]

@Alabaska: You were fishing for concrete information on how roles would act even after we decided that decisions like that were to be left up to individuals.

Right now, the night is a big soup of WIFOM. If we attempt to benefit each other by giving opinions, they will just be drowned in the soup. If we act with a level of certainty sufficient to cut through* that WIFOM (like sending choices in advance), it will only benefit the scum. We like our WIFOM soup the way it is, don't fish in it.

Unvote

*Yes, I know this clashes horribly with the soup metapohor, but as an action which benefits the scum, it can fall outside the bounds of an essentially townie metahpor.

[NabakovNabakov]

Good to see Claus getting more into the game, and I would like to note that his role says nothing about linking (to Wiki articles, posts, other games, etc.)

Considering Alabaska. Not sure if he's just generally sloppy or if he's being specifically scummy here. At this point, I wouldn't be happy with the amount of info released by lynching him (none), but I would prefer it infinitely to our other method of releasing no information/keeping everybody in play (No Lynch).

[NabakovNabakov]

Alabaska's alignment is something we should determine... but if he is town, what is the point in destroying his endgame power? Same goes with Winter. Both roles would be awesome if they were town and ridiculously bad endgame if they were scum. And unlike other roles in the game, they have no ability to "check" to make sure they're not lying or faking.

And as long as alabaska is around, shaft.ed has a good place to hide (although, the point is moot of shaft.ed is scum... /shrug).

We really really don't need a discussion like this. Pick a role in the game, and you could say "Well... it would be a good thing if they were town but a bad thing if they were scum". The only criteria that's going to get us through the game is "have they been scummy?"

I understand where Claus is coming from, but I think he's late getting here and is leaving too fast. I'd at least like to see some more from Iamusername, and like Cyberbob says, no rush. Don't you agree, Claus?

[NabakovNabakov]

NabakovNabakovob was pushing a bad wagon, I'd say he's scummy but not as scummy as pug.

Wait, so I'm scummy for pushing Megatron because it was a "bad wagon" when you can't adequately explain what was bad about it:

But I don't agree with him about Megatron/iamausername. Did a reread of just this poster and he strikes me as town. I don't agree that his comment about being nightkilled was AtoE; in fact, I'd say that the very suggestion is laughable.

Right...

Alabaska has become even more clumsy in trying to be careful. Lynch/vig sounds like a good idea.

Vote: Alabaska J

[NabakovNabakov]

Why does the amount of agreement concern you?

Because if he's mafia, he should have scumbuddies disagreing/diverting attention away from him.

Alabaska is an easy bus. It would take a heluvalotta resolve and effort from the town to actually kill him, so the best response to his being suspected is ambivalence or bemoaning how difficult/costly it will be to kill him(and we're seeing some of each).


Rereading, it's still my opinion that it is the town's repsonsibility to kill Alabaska ASAP, so my vote stays where it is. There's no sense in entrusting to night-actions something we have the ability to do in the open.

In an emergency situation, I would likely go to Pug. Plain-sight lurking, opportunistic, L-2, OMGUS vote on TheHermit, yadda yadda yadda.

[NabakovNabakov]

I would like to try to explore Nabakov a bit before the day ends.

Please do. But seeing as you haven't asked me any questions, we'll have to do this in reverse.

(a reasonable interpretation of "It is the town's responsibility to kill Alabaska" is "If you're not voting for Alabaska you are not town").

Sometimes two townies can have differing views on a subject, and this is something that has to be accounted for. A townie can be not voting a scum for perfectly legitimate reasons; this is unfortunate, but it's the truth. So no, it's not a reasonable interpertation. At all. Where the hell is this conception of my playing up a false dichotomy coming from?

If Alabaska is town I would think the scum would be ecstatic about his wagon. It uses up one of the town's lynches and possibly a vig action when town viggs are very finite, provides no immediate information, and gives them the chance to get a two-for-one by nightkilling whoever shaft.ed hides behind. This makes you trying to strong-arm support of the wagon very suspicious.

And this comes back to my use of the word "responsibility" (which you so roundly misinterperted). Responsibility is a heavy thing, and it's something this town shirks every time they say "but killing Alabaska would tie up a lot of actions." If we decide as a town that Alabaska is likely to be scum (and I'd be willing to have

that

discussion any day), but we aren't willing to do what it takes to kill him when the town is at full strength, what does that say about our liklihood of killing him in the future? We all have to face up to the distinct possiblity that the situation may be worse than we thought. We have to face up to the possibility that we might have to risk more than we thought to win this. I know I'm gambling by asking you to gamble, but I think that shows more about my confidence than about my allignment.

If anybody has any questions, my door is always open.

[NabakovNabakov]

If anybody has any questions, my door is always open.

Why are you voting me now?

Because I think you are scum and that it is in the town's best interests to lynch you today. I've already stated my support for the Pug wagon (before it went L-1 btw), but I think you are more likely to be scum

and

we have to get down to the business of killing you ASAP.

I know it probably appears as if I'm hiding my vote from the Pug wagon or trying to distract from it, but at this point, that wagon is at L-1, and lending any support to it would shut down discussion. I figured this wouldn't be the best thing to do considering how intent Hermit seemed to be in exploring me and how intent I am in hearing your case on me, and I suspect voting anybody else would elicit a similar accusations of hiding.

[NabakovNabakov]

Reading... Should post by tonight.

[NabakovNabakov]

Ok, so 12 hours late isn't

that

bad.

I'm not as convinced that keeping Pug alive will be so rosy; it leaves the door open for massive shenanigans if he's scum. Scenario that occured to me seconds after the idea was floated: Pugscum lives, gifts a buddy with NK-immune, says he gave buddy cop. Buddy comes up with a false scumhit, we mislynch. By the time anybody has a chance to do anything, it's D4 and we'd be in perilous LyLo or have lost. Even if it's played totally legit, we still won't have our confimed innocent until D3. The benefit is not as huge as others are making it out to be, and the danger is much more dangerous. (This is all assuming Pug is scum, of course)

I honestly have zero time to make a case on Alabaska right now (eat, run, work). My sincere apologies.

[NabakovNabakov]

Didn't act. Timeline for absorbing inventor role:
N1, I get role.
D2, I broadcast that I have role.
N2, I give ability to a player I can't trust 100%.
D3, I broadcast that that player now has power.
N3, that player acts.
D4, we finally get a result.

Shuts off too many options, takes too long, too many weak links.

1. armlx
2. Cyberbob
3. Rishi
4. iamausername
5. shaft.ed

Original Roll String: 1d5 (STATIC)

1 5-Sided Dice: (5) = 5

[NabakovNabakov]

Shaft.ed is up.

[NabakovNabakov]

I did not absorb the inventor ability. I did not realize that the player gifted by the inventor may act on the same night (my theoretical timelines from today and yesterday show this). Now that shaft.ed has presented his arguments. I may have been an idiot to have not done what I didn't do, but what was not done was not done.

Armlx's plan sounds OK. I don't how it "auto-catches" the SK. It might catch him, but it could also just narrow the field. Also, it depends on Hermit being alive/dependable so that he can report back with an investigation on Twomz without being killed/intentionally wrong. That means we're screwed if we lynch him, but we're also screwed if he's the SK. Additionally, first impressions would state that the remaining mafia members will also have an interest in dispatching the SK, but this is also an excellent opportunity to take a pot-shot at King if they're someone who can/won't be watched.

[NabakovNabakov]

In regards to my early-game jabs at Hermit/megatron, they were just that, me latching on to something that wasn't role discussion (or in the case of megatron, finding nothing that wasn't role discussion) and pushing/prodding. If I was really interested in getting Hermit or Megatron lynched because their roles were threatening, why didn't I join the later Hermit wagon? Why did I leave Metagron/Username once username replaced and began posting content? You really have to put my earlier posts in the context of our sluggish first week.

Superficially, it might appear that I stated more of a case on Pug than I did on Alabaska, but in the case of Pug I was merely regurgitating what others had put together. In composing a case on Alabaska, I wanted to do a PBPA like Alabaska just did on me, but I didn't/don't have enough RL time to do it up right.

Using the lynch took priority over having armlx use his poison?

Using the lynch would have to compliment armlx using his poison.

Also, the post which gave Alabaska pause also has my warped timelines.

[NabakovNabakov]

Just posting to say... I don't have any time to post. I'll try to get up to speed, but my schedule isn't clearing anytime soon.

[NabakovNabakov]

V/LA until Tuesday. I'm blindingly sorry about how little I've been able to participate today.

[NabakovNabakov]

Hey, back, maybe reading.

Is there a decent chance y'all are gonna lynch me today? Should I even bother? (feeling a bit apathetic)

[NabakovNabakov]

Ok, I still haven't read the thread, but you guys seem to have a pretty airtight plan there. Who am I to fight it?

Just in case it might change your minds, I am in fact the SK, and if you let me live/kill tonight, dumb luck might just strike twice and I'll bag the last mafioso (probably shaft.ed btw). I could even absorb a protown power and start helping out that way too. In the unlikely situation that you kill me now and need me later, you'll all be very sorry you didn't give me a chance to reform, and I'll have a good laugh.

Also, mad props to armlx on the double roleblock/double track idea; I never saw it coming.

[NabakovNabakov]

OK so if Nab's the SK I think we need to adjust the plan for maximum potential. Kinda surprised he'd claim as he might have outlasted the plan by pushing for a Mayhem lynch.

Wouldn't have happened/helped. What are the chances the guy who ranted and raved until the town lynched some other guy manages to kill the guy who will discover he killed the other guy without being blocked by the guy or tracked by the guy or that other guy?

[NabakovNabakov]

Somebody call Flay, I'm on to something (despite being dead)

A strategy devised by the players in a game (usually a Smalltown or game in which the majority of roles have been revealed) in which concerted night actions guarantee or appear to guarantee the indentification and elimination of all hostile parties.

[NabakovNabakov]

Wow... that didn't work out the way it was supposed to.

I never would have guessed Twomz was scum when I killed him (ok, so I was aware of the possibility, but I had no read); I just wanted the watcher out of the way. I had strongly considered not acting at all N1, but with one dead scum, I couldn't let the town get too powerful. I was also depending upon there being a scum kill that would both elminate a town power role and provide an alternative target for investigation. Now that I know King was controlled by the scum, I might have had a slightly better chance than I thought, but I had let the game run away from me.

That was still a fantastic job by the town. Good D1 lynch without even using power-roles and a brilliant plan D2 to wrap things up.