Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over

[reborn537]

Heyheyhey, reading in progress.

Oh, and /confirm.

[reborn537]

WOW. First off let's just nip this whole claim thing in the bud. Llama has been misquoting repeatedly - GW is right, Gob quote Cleveland twice and then said that "#2 being Cleveland was a coincidence". Almost every time since he said that people have misquoted him. The #2 (i.e. quote number two) is the most important part of the sentence. If I say "What the deuce?!" twice does that make me Stewie? Preposterous.

But I digress...

I can't see why people are liking Llama so much so far. Ignoring the claim for the meantime, because it is a null tell (bastard moddery seems to be in effect in most theme games that I've been in).

Llama's (non?)vote has been moving around like a weathervane, and as we all know wishy-washiness is a big scumtell.

1) Gob (for thinking of character claiming - this after ONE Cleveland quote I might add, and right before he full claims his role)
2) Xtoxm (let's face it, this is pretty OMGUS, although I'm not sure I like Xtoxmm that much myself)
3) Ghostwriter (post 100... trying to make sense of this... go and look back, I guarantee headache)
4) unvotes a couple of posts later (post 104, but who's counting?)
5) Back on goborage (basically because goborage was afk I think)

It was you who first started pointing at him about a claim, no one else did until after you set it up to look that way, and THAT is why I have a FoS on you.

I know I did. That was intentional for the reason of character claiming being bad. Was I 100% beyond a doubt sure that gobo had just fullclaimed? No of course not. The thing was he was being very careless with his role if he is Cleveland, and could of been trying to instigate a mass character claim. In this setup I view character claim as a bad thing, so I wanted to shut it down before it even started to begin. I dont understand why that is a bad thing to try and do.

This is just so ridiculous. Even if I was Cleveland, how would saying "I'm Cleveland" be fullclaiming?! The amount of quotes flying around on Day 1 (evil monkey, anybody?) and you choose a Cleveland quote and then back it up with a misquote later on. You're trying to justify it with some irrelevent reasoning that makes you seem pro-town. I don't buy into Xtoxm's argument that we should lynch you because your ability is bad, but I still think you're a good play, because you're incredibly scummy.

[reborn537]

Not to mention that he's been distracting the town with a pages long debate about whether Goborage claimed or not, when anyone who actually re-read saw that it was pretty clear.

I should probably have reassigned my vote in my last post, but hey

unvote vote llama

[reborn537]

Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!

People, you need to wake up and smell the coffee! The deceit with which LF acted in relation to Goborage's clearly innocent (and fun, given that this is a theme game based on a C O M E D Y show) quoting is not town. There is never any reason to be deceitful if you're town. I'd also like to point out that he ignored half my post.

I'd just like to clear something up - LF is voting for me because I am voting for him, plain and simple. There was NO "claim thing". LF made it up out of pure thin air.

I'd also like to state my suspicions on dalt

FoS dalt

. However, things obviously might change once he starts chiming in again.

[reborn537]

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.

This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."

The only reason (aside from just doing something that is incorrect, I should point out for fairness' sale) to do something scummy consistently is so that you can point out the meta when you are in fact scum or when people call you out on it. Therefore it's consistently bad for everyone except yourself (and your mafia members if you're mafia). Wishy-washiness is a scum-tell. You can't get around it by saying that you always do it. That doesn't make it ok, or right.

Everything you've done so far has led to distraction of the town, for many pages. The goborage thing wasted the town's time for so long and was made up out of thin air.

[reborn537]

I like your cases on BG, and I must admit I was quite surprised when she gave in over my LF case straight away given that she said it was obvious an LF lynch wasn't going to happen.

Also, it is strange how Xtoxm and BG have both been on the LF wagon at some point. But I don't see why it is in the scum's interests to lynch LF if he is town. He can only help their cause while alive (distracting the town AND a novoter - perfect choice to unwittingly help the scum).

I don't agree with your buddying thing either... just because two people interact a lot it doesn't mean they are scum partners. If that were true I'd be voting for one of you two right now.

[reborn537]

Well I'll be shocked if they survive the night. On the other hand, of course, it's pretty common for lovers to be one scum one town. So that's worth bearing in mind.

LF - I'll get onto the rest of your points at some point soon, but you must realise that as it's the summer some of us are quite busy. I've already made some big posts, so it's hardly like I'm neglecting the game or something.

[reborn537]

LF, what's your case on me?

I'm pretty sure you're annoyed at me because I dared to make a case on you. Could be wrong though.

[reborn537]

farside - have I got a double vote or is that a mistake? I wasn't aware about having a double vote.

Fixed.

[reborn537]

That doesn't make sense Xtoxm - noone can die as loverscum and have their lover lynched, obviously.

[reborn537]

Yeah - don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this because you have simple fact on your side.

Just because I sided with Xtoxm on a couple of things it doesn't mean I'm always going to agree with him.

[reborn537]

If you're going to say something like that please try to accompany it with reasoning.

[reborn537]

Bite me.

No, I'm serious, I wasn't getting at you. If you're going to try and convince me to lynch someone, you'll actually need to cite a few reasons. Other than drawing out the lovers (which admittedly is not optimal) I don't see that he has really done anything overly wrong.

[reborn537]

Most of the points are answering the immediately previous post, unless there is a name mentioned or an actually quote. Just read it like a conversation in that sense.

[reborn537]

I like the post, and clearly some good thoughts here.

But whatever happens, we aren't lynching claimed lovers on Day 1. More likely we'll find out on Day 2 whether they're telling the truth one way or they other.

I find mafia siblings pretty unlikely in a game of this size, but, I admit, plausible.

[reborn537]

Welcome to Spooner St.

[reborn537]

reborn

Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!

Fishing?

Yes. The reason I have been so careful about claiming Cleveland or not is because I believe LF is TRYING to ascertain whether I am Cleveland or not (despite his rigorous statements to the contrary), and as previously stated a character claim only helps the scum. Whether LF is scum or not, the real scum would definitely want me to claim, which is why I've been so careful.

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.

This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

Yes, you can. Go check the wiki

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.

WIFOM

2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.

Doesn't mean they always do, as with scum

3. I think people play how they're gonna play.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do

4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

WIFOM Also you underestimate the amount of slips people tend to make. Like the amount of WIFOM reasoning you're using now to protect LF

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

So the lynch is randomly determined every day then, with no other contributing factors?

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

No. Even though his vote doesn't count, it still holds sway with the town. Because he has everyones attention, he has to be careful where he puts his vote. With great power comes great responsibility.

My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners now

FoS StD

[reborn537]

EBWOP - my typo probably made things unclear at the end.

My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners now

FoS StD

[reborn537]

elvis - you'd be right if he'd given a case and then voted for me and then I'd voted for him.

BUT he didn't. He just dismissed my argument with poor points and then voted for me without cause. That is without question scummy, surely? And furthermore I only did FoS.

[reborn537]

Yes. The reason I have been so careful about claiming Cleveland or not is because I believe LF is TRYING to ascertain whether I am Cleveland or not (despite his rigorous statements to the contrary), and as previously stated a character claim only helps the scum. Whether LF is scum or not, the real scum would definitely want me to claim, which is why I've been so careful.

I think a lot of people have come to the consensus that this is a null tell and whether or not you are Cleveland doesn't really matter.

But I'd like to point out that not only am I fallible, but I also did most of my read from 2:00 am to 5:00 am in the morning, and may not have been fully awake.

Doesn't excuse the fact that you're STILL voting for me, and STILL haven't presented a case on me.

As Mafia players grow in experience, they will typically expand their knowledge of what constitutes scumtell.

If you want to follow the Wiki 100%, then you should check my join date and tell us which one of us would know more about scum tells.

Yeah, I'm really intimidated by the fact that you have been on the forums for 4 years and still appear to have learned nothing. Also, I'm pretty sure I've played more mafia than you.

A type of voting which can be a scum tell; when a player votes and then unvotes a particular player repeatedly during a Day, or switches their votes to several different players over the course of the Day, it may be because they are scum trying to find a good place to land their vote on an ProTown player without attracting too much suspicion.

On the other hand, it is hard to use this tell reliably, as some players simply move their vote around a lot, no matter what their Alignment or Role.

Oh. I guess the wiki's on my side. One down...

Oh, right, I see what you've done. You've read my argument on LF, decided that it hinges on the "wishy-washiness" and then tried to convince everyone else that it does. Still no case on me.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.

WIFOM

2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.

Doesn't mean they always do, as with scum

Not quite. See below.

3. I think people play how they're gonna play.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do

Doesn't mean you should policy lynch players who give scum tells.

Oh, I see, so now we're not lynching people who are scummy? No, I agree, maybe not always, as there could be a better candidate. In this instance, I believe LF is the best candidate for the lnych. Hence why my vote is squarely on him!!

4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

WIFOM Also you underestimate the amount of slips people tend to make. Like the amount of WIFOM reasoning you're using now to protect LF

First of all, I'm not protecting LF, and if you think I am, please point out where I am so I can either be corrected or prove you wrong.

Well, here's the thing. Your large posts directed towards me have focussed on on poking holes in my argument on LF, without actually presenting a case on me. Which would be fine, except that you're voting for me.

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

I'm saying it because it's bloody obvious that if someone where scum, they're not going to do the things that act like it. Notice I'm not going to say they're acting like town. Now that would be a WIFOM,

if it were contained in an argument by a scum describing how said scum is being protown.

Go give that wiki another look through.

That's as maybe, but you're using arguments which lead to WIFOM, which is just as bad. Not all scum are superhuman. Scum won't always get everything right. Sometimes they take a chance, do something risky, and it all goes wrong. If the scum NEVER made slips or dropped scumtells then the game would be pretty difficult for the town.

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

So the lynch is randomly determined every day then, with no other contributing factors?

Selective reading? That explains why the wiki doesn't agree with you

If we're bandying around wiki catch phrases then maybe I should mention that you've tunnel-visioned on me.

No. You see, some scumtells don't transcend games. They're relevant to the game at hand, and they represent things that shouldn't occur in the game. Not every wishywashy player, not every awkward post, not every lurker, and not every misuse of logic makes the person scum. It's up to the players to figure out in the game which of the "scumtells" are legit and which are not. I don't think you've done that.

I disagree. I made a very considered read and re-read before I presented my argument on LF. I thought very carefully about whether I was going to go for dalt or LF, my two top candidates, and I decided that there was definitely much more on LF that made him scummy

You, my friend, have decided that wishy-washyness is a scumtell, and have decided that every single situation is appropriate for wishy-washyness to be a scumtell. You have not decided to actually think for yourself and ask yourself if this is appropriate to our situation at hand. THIS IS WRONG. You cannot just say that something is a scum tell and expect it to be a scum tell in every single game.

You need to go and re-read my argument, and realise that it wasn't just one line "LOL LF = wishy-washy LET'S VOTE LOL"

So you've decided to go on a smear campaign and attack LF because you think you've caught a scumtell. That is incredibly scummy. You've decided that you're going to ignore logic and reasoning and not look at what LF's votes actually mean (I mean, you posted them, but I don't think you really, truly looked at them, nor did you seem to care after LF explained them).

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

No. Even though his vote doesn't count, it still holds sway with the town. Because he has everyones attention, he has to be careful where he puts his vote. With great power comes great responsibility.

At this point, I'm just actually saying that if I did:

Unvote Vote: RestFermata

Unvote Vote: Llama Fluff

Unvote Vote: Babygirl

Unvote Vote: Reborn

Then I'm doing a lot more harm than he is.

OK, but you're wrong. You've just one absolutely nothing. And in the case that you reassigned your vote for real, it may be worse, but only in a technical sense. And that still doesn't make LF right or correct, just because what he did is less bad than something you're hypothetically suggesting.

I'm also saying that the wishy washy "scumtell" that you oh so love doesn't really apply in this situation, because his vote doesn't count (allegedly), so I don't see why he's being scummy, when he could accomplish the same thing if he said:

To be honest, I don't think it's me who loves the scumtell, I think it's you! You've zeroed in on it like a sniper onto a friendly soldier. Just because he can't vote, it doesn't mean he can't make arguments, and so, especially on day 1, he can still control the voting. When someone votes (yes, even if it doesn't count), people want to know why, and if they should follow his vote. On Day 1, it's basically irrelevent whether he can vote or not. I'm pretty sure the town is just going to decide on someone to lynch at some point, I don't believe it'll be a split camp.

Unpizza, Pizza: Kmd

Unpizza, Pizza: Kloud

Right. my stuff is in bold again.

[reborn537]

LF you still haven't presented a case on me.

[reborn537]

4th on the extension bandwagon

[reborn537]

That is most generous.

[reborn537]

Xtoxm, a good, long post.

However, please request an extension, as there are no townie reasons not to.

[reborn537]

Thinktank, I happen to think the case on you is utterly weak to the point of ridiculousness. If BG hadn't claimed lovers with Xtoxm my vote would be on her right now because of her opportunistic waggoning onto you.

For now,

unvote

IG, please explain to me if you were serious about thinktank or if this was some kind of elaborate ruse/gambit?

[reborn537]

And reborn... why are you calling IG's vote "an elaborate ruse/gambit"? What do you think the elaborate ruse/gambit could be?

I wasn't calling it that, I was asking if it was.

In this case the gambit would be making an incredibly weak case on someone and then seeing if anyone waggoned onto the weak case. For example, as BG did. It's something I encountered in a recent game. The object of such a gambit would be to catch out opportunistic people looking for an easy wagon.

Like I said, if BG hadn't claimed lovers I'd be going for her now because of the waggoning onto TT.

[reborn537]

I'm not too fond of it either, but it seems to be something established players try now and again.

[reborn537]

Although, having said that IG doesn't seem to be overly experienced, unless he has played prior to joining this site.

[reborn537]

vote: Inspector Godot

I think IG is a good lynch option. His reasoning of lynching TT not seriously, but to put pressure on him does not fly when there is a deadline.

[reborn537]

EBWOP lynching = voting

[reborn537]

IG needs to post

vote IG

L-2 is fine.

[reborn537]

Gut feelings aren't really very good at this stage of Day 1.

[reborn537]

He was at L-3 before I voted for him.

[reborn537]

Don't open that can of worms. I swear to god if STD uses the pizza analogy again I will blow my brains out.

[reborn537]

Llama - If you are town, could you please stop using your "vote". It's just confusing. Could you instead use an FOS in place of your vote or something?

Fair enough

unvote

.

Im fine with the IG lynch, although I think a reborn lynch nets a better chance at catching scum.

You still haven't made a case on me.

[reborn537]

STD, could you repeat or summarize (or point me to appropriate post) your pizza case on reborn? I remember reading your summary post and catching some stuff on reborn, but not really understanding why he was your number 1.

The pizza thing wasn't about me. It was directed at me, but in reference to LF.

[reborn537]

You still haven't made a case on me.

I still like reborn more then any other wagon right now. Even if I lay aside everything that gobo did (well there isn’t much to lay aside) he looks pretty scummy. When he entered he immediately went after me, arguably OMGUS style since my vote was on gobo for having voted four times within three people. I have explained all of my votes and why I placed them already, but he still has not answered with an explanation of why any of my votes were scummy, just says that voting that much is wishy-washy and a scum tell.

Later reborn decides to call my vote of him (which was present when he replaced in) OMGUS. This is using false evidence to try and further a lynch of me. Also he is discounting my entire push at gobo for the “claim” thing as made up. While it is obvious that in gobos first and second post he does put out Cleveland quotes.

Following up with my push to get why my votes are scummy, reborn decides it is best to ignore my explanation of votes, and just say that I am metaing myself. There was no attempt here to explain which of my votes made me scum.

The whole dragon conflict more pisses me off than anything else. You guys really need to just break it into quotes and respond that way, it really isn’t too hard to do and helps me read it accurately. Your religion to the wiki here kind of bugs me though. It seems you read that wishy-washy voting is something scum always does, you might of seen it in a game once, so you are taking it as a universal constant. This does not make me mafia though, and it seems to be the main thing you are voting me because of.

The rest of this seems to be you yelling at dragon for poking holes in your case against me. If your case holds that little water, chances are its really weak. That honestly is one of my reasons for thinking you are scum right now. You come in an post a case that hinges half on my votes which you STILL have yet to explain which are scummy and anti-town and half on the claim thing which is my views on the game and is pretty indefensible.

The unwillingness to explain what makes my votes scummy and your misrepresenting me is enough to keep my vote right where it is, and should be enough to be attracting other votes.

I think we still can get this wagon off in time people

"Everything gobo did". I want examples of what my predecessor did to earn your ire.

OMGUS? Utterly ridiculous saying that to me considering how hard you went after me when I dared to make a case on you.

I HAVE explained why your wishy-washy votes are anti-town. Every time you vote you are distracting the town with your poorly considered arguments. I haven't seen one good wagon started by you yet. You went after Gob because of his "claim of Cleveland" which was a direct deception by you. I'm glad that's been put to bed now, by the way.

I did not use false evidence to call your vote on me OMGUS. Your vote was on goborage because of the so-called claim thing, and after that had been destroyed you had no reason to have your vote on me. Therefore, my only logical conclusion was that you were voting for me because I went for you. I was not going for you for that reason, I read through twice before I made my first posts and everything I did was carefully considered. I decided my top suspects were yourself and dalt.

You were metaing yourself. And I explained about it. And people agreed.

The whole dragon conflict pisses you off more than anything else... wow. Dude, you've just admitted that the main reason you're voting for me is that I didn't format my post in your preferred way. Well, I'm sorry, but I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to STD, and it's a tried and tested method of responding to large posts. This isn't even a point against me, it's something you don't like about the way I use the internet. Unless you think I used a deliberately poor format to confuse and distract the town?

I was not yelling at STD. I was answering his points with my own opinions. Just stop hazing the town, seriously, because people read what you write, and if you're town please stop as you're doing more harm than good.

And, once again, I did explain. Just because you disagree that doesn't make me scum.

Hope this satisfies you.

Anyway, on with the game. IG, shockingly enough I am not going to counter-claim Cleveland. I am going to

unvote

though.

I also think it's pertinent to point out that if we go down this road then we'll just go all around the town putting people at L-1 and then having them claim a power role. It's happened in another game I was in and people realised what was happening and decided to lynch one of the claimed power-roles (me as cop). So let's be very careful about how we go about things from now on.

unvote

[reborn537]

Heh, I unvoted twice. Hope they don't cancel each other out.

Xtoxm - my last point is particularly relevent to the LF situation. If, as I think will happen, everyone starts claiming power roles left right and centre then I'm sure LF will come under more scrutiny.

[reborn537]

reborn

Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!

Fishing?

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.

This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

And this

And he posted a response that I do not think I responded to (because he put his response in a quote, and I missed it). One hour, when I have time, I'll look back on it and make sure I understand what he said and respond to it. Sorry for the long overdue post, Reborn. I promise I'll get it in before I leave.

As you say, I've answered your post, and no problem.

[reborn537]

STD don't worry about offending me in mafia... the whole point of this is that we are arguing, and I'm not going to hold back so I certainly wouldn't wish anyone else to.

I'll answer your case in the morning, although once again it seems to be a case whereby you say that I'm scum for going for LF.

[reborn537]

STD, something to ponder while I sleep - if I am scum, who are my scum partners?

[reborn537]

These are two people I haven't looked at in detail. Can you summarize your case on them for me please?

[reborn537]

STD, something to ponder while I sleep - if I am scum, who are my scum partners?

What is the purpose in this? If you are town, asking the town to make connections involving you is a pointless distraction.

No. It's good for people to list their top suspects. At the moment LF and STD have tunnel-visioned onto me so they've effectively stopped scum-hunting. I'm trying to get them back on track while not immediately continuing the argument.

[reborn537]

Seeing as we're so close to the deadline, and I consider myself to have a pretty important power role, I'm going to roleclaim

Stewie: inventor

I make up the names of my inventions at night and Farside interpretes how they would work. I was considering using the classic Death Ray tonight, for example.

[reborn537]

Oh, and I breadcrumbed this. You'll find that I actually said the words "I'm Stewie" a few pages back. Not exactly in that context, but it was a pretty useful breadcrumb.

[reborn537]

Turns out I was wrong about the "I'm Stewie" breadcrumb. I've just checked back and it was actually "me Stewie" on page 8.

[reborn537]

Xtoxm, summarize your case and I'll think about it.

[reborn537]

Would you rather die yourself?

This is not pro-town behaviour. It would be borderline scummy of me to just turn my vote onto EK without hearing some reasoning first.

[reborn537]

...


Didn't I say stay away from reborn?

Yeah, you did, and now another power role has been forced out into the open, just like I warned everyone.

[reborn537]

Turn your vote from where, might I ask? ecause I do not seem to remember you placing it.

I haven't placed it, because if I vote for who I want to vote for I'll be done in for OMGUS. Seeing as STD and LF have formed a power block I don't think I'm going to be able to convince anyone about them until we have some night info on the table. I wonder what an alignment-scanning invention would be called... The Scanatron? The Evil Detector 5000? The Guilterminator?

I'm waiting for someone to do something scummy, like BG did, then I'll assign my vote. If she hadn't claimed lovers with Xtoxm I think the day would be over by now.

[reborn537]

I've said why I think she's scum.

And it's almost scummy you saying that as a reason for not wanting to vote her. If you're a townie anyone is better than you for a lynch.

I would like to lynch a scum though, which is why I request an argument.

[reborn537]

I've said why I think she's scum.

I've just reread all the way to page 15, where you unvoted KMD and voted for EK without presenting an argument.

[reborn537]

The proper play is to wait for day 2 to lynch either of them. Now is not the time.

vote: Llama

What a bad time to make a terrible idea.

QFT

vote llama

Also, it's standard mod practice to leave the lovers unconfirmed to each other. But it's in both their interests to stay alive, so they might lie about this. But TT is correct, day 2 before we act on the lovers.

[reborn537]

Lynch all Liars. You've already full-claimed.

[reborn537]

AAh hang on, I understand now.

[reborn537]

The thing is, at no point when Xtoxm was attacking you did you even hint at further abilities. I want to see if anyone counter-claims Peter.

[reborn537]

There's another way we can confirm IG. I fully expect the scum to go for me in the night, so IG should obviously try and protect me. Seeing as he's claimed he should try to be as useful as possible before he dies. Same with me. I might hold back on Death Raying you now, LF - I was planning on doing that because it didn't seem like we were going to lynch you. Now you've claimed, I don't think I will do either.

But please explain why you feel JOAT fits with Peter? I think I have an idea, but I want to know if you think the same without telling you what my idea is.

[reborn537]

"Too perfectly" is like "Too townie" - a fallacy.

[reborn537]

Xtoxm - that's not a pro-town thing to say. We'll deal with you tomorrow, have no fear.

Elvis - why RF?
TT - why Elvis?

[reborn537]

Well if we mislynch today tomorrow is lylo, so you can't just go lynching us tomorrow.

Unvote Vote EK

Please explain how tomorrow is lylo? Even in F11 tomorrow isn't lylo.

[reborn537]

LF - I agree with KMD - why were you so worried about a bastard setup when you're not even a real voteless townie. In reality you are quite a powerful role, if you're telling the truth. I don't feel you completely add up...

[reborn537]

5 hours is not a long time to confirm. More people than LF had to confirm.

[reborn537]

I agree.

[reborn537]

I wouldn't advise trying to confirm someone...I think just go after who you think is scum.

Exactly. That way you always confirm someone scum or not.

[reborn537]

Gigitygigitygoo!

[reborn537]

Cleveland - what is your role? Check your role pm and get back to me.

[reborn537]

IG.

LF - same question.

[reborn537]

IG claimed BodyGuard.

That's not what I'm asking. I want the rolename from the pm.

[reborn537]

To be honest, I would have thought Cleveland would be vanilla.

[reborn537]

OK, well in my search I didn't find it. I think that Cleveland could be a miller. Maybe that's way out there, but when I first thought of Cleveland's role when goborage and LF's altercation popped the idea of Cleveland into my (obviously gullible) head, I thought of the scene where Joe shows Peter a machine that detains criminals. When Peter goes under it, it says "Warning: suspect" or something and then handcuffs it. But when Cleveland is going to try it, Joe warns him not to, but it's too late. Cleveland goes under it and it beats the crap out of him, saying "Warning: Minority suspect." So it made me think of miller. I dunno. Pretty speculative, like I said.

Great episode.

[reborn537]

@reborn - Town Drunk, at least I think thats what you are asking

That's fine.

unvote

[reborn537]

When he's in his random phases (like being a pirate) he gets too caught up in his little thing to pay attention to anything else, I'm guessing.

[reborn537]

BST?

[reborn537]

Oh, snap.

[reborn537]

Abingdon, Oxfordshire

[reborn537]

Yeah, mafia at 5 am is becoming all too familiar to me. Where are you going to uni? I'm a student at Birmingham - that's where I learned mafia, we must have played over 200 games this year.

[reborn537]

I can't believe you've claimed. Did you even count the votes on you?

[reborn537]

More like L-4 by my count.

[reborn537]

But claiming vanilla changes nothing. That is what the scum would claim, therefore we have to lynch claimed vanillas.

[reborn537]

Safe claims are pretty common in a theme game.

[reborn537]

Of course.

[reborn537]

vote ek

[reborn537]

Sorry, that's just the way it goes. I'd rather lynch a dodgy vanilla claim than risk drawing out another power role.

[reborn537]

Sorry, that's just the way it goes. I'd rather lynch a dodgy vanilla claim than risk drawing out another power role.

Why is it dodgy?

I understand if you have to lynch vanilla on principle. But I don't understand why it's dodgy.

I think all vanillas are Chris! Do you agree Reborn?

No, I don't, and I don't know why you'd think that.

[reborn537]

In a theme game based on a tv show there will only be one of each character. At least, I hope that's true or we could have some mad Stewie on Stewie action going on around here.

[reborn537]

There still aren't going to be duplicates of characters from the show.

[reborn537]

And I have no idea who to think scum is now...Pretty certain she's real cos that's not a clever thing to do if you're a scum that's about to die.

I guess we should lynch her anyway.

Why not shift the bandwagon or just no lynch then? We have a lot of stuff to go on so far for D2, the claim looks believable, so we are going to just kill someone we seem to think is town?

No lynch is a scummy suggestion! The scum get a free kill. And we are not going to shift the wagon because then another power role could be revealed and again and again until we've mass-claimed.

What EK is doing is null. It could be town giving up or scum not giving up. We have to lynch her before more power roles are revealed. Worst comes to worst we lynch a vanilla. Most games start that way.

[reborn537]

Oh my GOD I can't believe I'm actually saying this but I wish STD was here!

I think EK might be scum! We are not going to no lynch! Stop voting for no lynch before I go back to voting for you LF!

EK isn't confirmed town, why are you even saying that? I'm saying that worst comes to worst, we lose a vanilla. That's not as bad as revealing all the power roles. If the best happens, we lynch a scum. Xtoxm, you yourself though EK was scummy, and everything she has done since has been null, so NOTHING has changed. That's was null means!

You guys need to get your act together.

LF - if we no lynch then today might as well not have happened, except for three power roles being revealed. So if we no lynch the scum kill one of us for free, and then the game effectively begins again on day 2.

[reborn537]

No lynch isn't a complete disaster, I guess, while we have even numbers...There's probably going to be something that skews the numbers anyway, and it could end up wasting us a cycle.

I'm not a fan.

I'd like to get a new wagon off, if we don't want EK lynched.

The even numbers thing is only in c9 or f11 variants with even numbers. In mini games it's ALWAYS bad.

[reborn537]

A VT claim should not be lynched if they are confirmed town. I know EK isn't, but that's what it sounds like you are saying.

I know that I am dabbling in WIFOM, but I really cant see scum at L-2 claiming VT one day untill deadline when so many wagons have been tapped out. With that claim EK looks more confirmed then most of the power roles to me.

My other reason for wanting a no lynch is I can use a random action on a player at night and not have to worry about it being lylo due to no vote from me, we cant lose four players in a night I think

You're not just dabbling in WIFOM, you're swimming in it! When I'm scum I always say things like EK is for the exact reason that some of the town believe it and take pity. How can you possibly say EK looks more confirmed than most of the power roles?

God, I'm sick of this. I'm almost considering replacing out just from the sheer bull-headedness of the town.

[reborn537]

I think EK might be scum! We are not going to no lynch! Stop voting for no lynch before I go back to voting for you LF!

Ok lets say we lynch EK - What do you expect her to flip?

I consider a better than normal chance of her being scum. That makes it the profitable move to make. How can you guys take her all the way to L-1 and then back down when she claims Vanilla? Is it because of the Chris claim? I was just in a theme game as scum and we all had safe claims.

[reborn537]

Where's Ghost Writer... he's a sane and proven player...

[reborn537]

No, it's the vanilla claim really.

If she claimed power I was gonna push for the lynch anyway.

But vanilla claim makes her look inno.

WHAT?!

[reborn537]

But they don't always, because of madmen like you!!

[reborn537]

I can't believe you've claimed. Did you even count the votes on you?

Why were you disappointed to see me claim? It seems like (at least at that point) you thought I was town, and believed my claim. Otherwise you would not have been disappointed to see me claim.

No, I thought you'd claimed prematurely because at that point I thought there were only a couple of votes on you. I was wrong.

[reborn537]

MOD,

I say end day right before you go away. That way night actions can get sent in while you're away and then game back open then.

Why do you suggest that, when it can only lead to you being lynched?

Probably because you seem to be buying into all this self-sacrificial rhetoric she's doing.

[reborn537]

MOD,

I say end day right before you go away. That way night actions can get sent in while you're away and then game back open then.

Why do you suggest that, when it can only lead to you being lynched?

Probably because you seem to be buying into all this self-sacrificial rhetoric she's doing.

Do you know how easy it is to come up with a fakeclaim for Chris given how much you see of him in episodes? I could buy hider due to evil monkey, some sort of watcher/tracker due to paper route.

You also never gave me a definate answer: EK is lynched - Is the flip town or scum?

I can't see the future, and I'm not scum so I can't know the answer. I hope she's scum.

[reborn537]

I can't believe you've claimed. Did you even count the votes on you?

Why were you disappointed to see me claim? It seems like (at least at that point) you thought I was town, and believed my claim. Otherwise you would not have been disappointed to see me claim.

No, I thought you'd claimed prematurely because at that point I thought there were only a couple of votes on you. I was wrong.

It sounds like you're really a slave to the conventions of mafia and don't evaluate things on a case by case basis. Which is exactly why STD wanted you dead earlier. It might just be your playstyle, but you're not looking at things on an individual basis... you're spouting knee-jerk MS conventions of play.

Well I'm sorry if I don't want to let the town lose just to buck the trend.

[reborn537]

To be honest I think I could go either way. But the possible gain outways the risk.

[reborn537]

outweighs*

[reborn537]

He's trying to make me say that I think EK is town.

[reborn537]

You also never gave me a definate answer: EK is lynched - Is the flip town or scum?

I can't see the future, and I'm not scum so I can't know the answer. I hope she's scum.

*facepalm*

Lets try incentive.

Someone offers you $50 if you guess EKs alignment correctly, what do you think EKs alignment is?

Lol.

What's the point you're trying to make, Llama?

It sounds like reborn has EK leaning town. Given that he still isnt saying yes or no. I am pretty sure its yes

I like how you ignore everything I say.

[reborn537]

At the very least I think reborn considered me town when I first claimed. Otherwise, why would he have disliked the fact that I did it early (early in his estimation). He seems to think I did something wrong and harmful to the town by claiming then. He seemed to dislike the fact that now I would have to be lynched.

If he thought I was scum, he wouldn't feel that way.

No, I didn't. I knew that several people thought you were scum, although they refused to tell me why. Considering the fact that more people think you are scum than there are likely to be scum in the game, a couple of them at least are genuine townies with genuine reasons on you. That's why I moved my vote to you. Also, I decided that whether or not LF was lying (I think not) today is not the day to worry about him.

[reborn537]

Reborn, why are you avoiding llama's question.

I think I believe EK's claim but I don't like the suggestion that all vanilla are chris. It opens up a fake claim for scum to just say "you can't counterclaim, there are more than one of this character."

I'm not avoiding it, I've been very clear that I don't know EK's alignment.

[reborn537]

I am at the point where the only feaseable options I see are no lynch or a lurker lynch. I think no lynch is the best option though given that just about all of the popular suspects have been forced to claim.

I think EK is town, I think reborn is town. IG is probally town with a few nagging suspicions after his last post. I think one of the lovers is scum, but no one seems willing to go for that today. That leaves a lot of people I have been leaning pro-town or at worse 45/55 scum on, of which I really dont think any make for a great lynching candidate.

I don't like Xtoxm's recent behaviour. I'm convinced that one of the lovers is scum, as both of them have been extremely scummy.

A lurker lynch is also fine with me, as I think this is a game that really requires participation. The people who have contributed less have really gotten away with murder. But who is that? BG is being replaced, STD is VLA, so I don't advocate either of these as a lurker lynch (although if we lynch the lovers obviously we'll have to discuss it carefully first). Noone really stands out as lurking.

[reborn537]

There are certain things that we probably disagree over, which is why I'm not going to talk any further on the EK thing.

[reborn537]

I'm pretty convinced I have pushed it. I think EK is the right play because she is extremely scummy, giving us a good chance of lynching scum, and if she was telling the truth, then we only lose a vanilla townie. The chance of lynching scum outweighs the risk of losing a vanilla townie and this is why an EK lynch is preferable to a no lynch. The lynch of an unconfirmed is always preferable to a no lynch. To you guys, I should be a better lynch than a no lynch, and I think you need to realise that.

[reborn537]

TT isn't scummy. IG tried to start a wagon a few pages ago and it got thrown out because it was stupid, remember? That led to IG's claim. LF, what you're unwittingly trying to do here is force a claim from someone who has acted pro-town.

He has been lurking a bit, I suppose, I'd rather hear from him about it first though.

[reborn537]

Wow...

[reborn537]

I agree with this, but your logic of "she claimed vanilla and is therefore town" makes no sense.

[reborn537]

How does it make sense? It's WIFOM.

[reborn537]

Well THANK GOD for you TT. Finally someone sane comes to the table. Can you imagine my desperation through the last couple of pages while I'm been surrounded by madmen?

[reborn537]

TT has been a lurker for most of this game and I sit about 50/50 on him, that makes him an acceptable lynch today given how many people we have completely bypassed. While lovers are preferable to me he is my second pick for lynchee right now.

Llama, something you don't understand but need to -

If you have a 50/50 read on someone that means that you think 50% of the time they are scum, 50% of the time they are town. That means you should ALWAYS lynch them because it will ALWAYS be the profitable and correct move in the long term. If we lynch 6 people with 50/50 reads on then we will, on average, kill 3 scum and most likely have won.

Because the scum make up probably a <30% part of the town, any chance of getting them which is larger than 30% is always correct and profitable in the long term. Those are the hard decisions we have to make when dicing with death.

[reborn537]

EK - I think the bulk of my suspicion on you comes from dalt rather than yourself. Dalt did enough to be lynched just on his own, and your vanilla claim holds no WIFOM with me.

[reborn537]

EK, RF's comment was sad but true. The town is being utterly incompetent today, myself included. I consider day 1 a total botch.

Dalt hardly did anything - he waggoned onto someone without saying ANYTHING.

[reborn537]

It's not logic, it's maths. If less than 30% of the town are scum and you have a 30% chance of catching scum by lynching someone, and you can do that as many times as you like, town wins. Fact.

STD, thank god, I knew you'd return the town to sanity.

[reborn537]

EBWOP - town on average wins

[reborn537]

This game has turned into a farce.

It's been a farce since post 16... we can still salvage it though.

[reborn537]

No... killing lovers day 1 is just ridiculous. I've made my mind up on that.

[reborn537]

We're not complaining. At least, I know I'm not. I'm admonishing myself for allowing things to go this wrong on day 1. I think STD and RF were doing the same. The tone was meant to be rueful.

[reborn537]

Wait. He gives these things to other people? That's not what reborn said.

I was considering using the classic Death Ray tonight, for example.

I am an inventor, I was considering inventing an invention called the "Death Ray" tonight. I thought that would be fairly explicit for the Mod. Other ideas I had were the "Mind Control Device" and the "Shrinking Device". The problem is that Farside decides how the inventions work. I was hoping roleblock/hide respectively, but who knows. Farside has shown potential for bastard modding.

For anyone who thinks Stewie is SK, when has he ever SUCCESSFULLY killed someone? Don't say Stewie kills Lois, because that was a simulation. And she didn't really die anyway.

[reborn537]

To be more clear - I think up the name, Farside interprets. I also suspect that whether it works as desired could be random.

[reborn537]

Unvote Vote STD

This makes me die inside.

[reborn537]

No, Stewie never killed anyone really, but I could imagine him being SK. The flavor text might describe something that made him particularly upset and homicidal. He is WILLING to kill. Inventor fits, but in my mind, so would SK.

And reborn, do you give these inventions to others, as Llama suggested, or do you use them yourself?

I use them on others. But I imagine if I was to use a shrinking device on someone it might mean that they are hidden.

[reborn537]

That is not the case with me.

[reborn537]

I probably should have checked the role pm before saying that...

[reborn537]

OK, I've checked the pm thoroughly and I was wrong. Ghostwriter is correct, it seems to be very much the traditional inventing role - although I don't know if people normally make up the names of their inventions when inventing, but that is the case with me.

[reborn537]

Yup, which, luckily for me, makes me confirmable (unless the scum roleblock me, if they possess such a power, which means they're not roleblocking LF). If I was in your position were it not for that I'd be voting for me right now. I guess the flavour and the fact that Stewie doesn't give away his inventions confused me somewhat.

[reborn537]

Yes, it means you're not SK if you successfully do that. You could theoretically still be scum, having your scum partners claim to receive and use your inventions, but at the moment I don't really think so.

Unvote

You guys can choose 3 people for to choose from to send my inventions to. That way the scum don't know who to roleblock, and there's an excellent chance that if I am scum you won't choose my scum partner, and I can choose from the 3 people given on their merits at the given time.

[reborn537]

If it'll make you feel better about me, then by all means. I think claimed roles should not be considered for the vote.

[reborn537]

All claimed people. If Xtoxm and BG are both town, likelihood is they'll die if they're on the list of three, and LF already has powers to use - we don't want to stick all our eggs in one basket.

My personal choice of people to choose from would be GW, STD and yourself.

[reborn537]

Question - why hasn't xtoxm nameclaimed?

[reborn537]

I think I would like it if you guys name a 4th so there's no chance that I accidently get all scum on my list and am automatically screwed. I doubt there are 4 scum in a game of this size.

[reborn537]

I'll see what other people say, this could be interesting for information. Also if we get in a lynch soon we can have a nice long twilight to digest while Farside is away.

[reborn537]

Xtoxm, there is no reason for you not to nameclaim. If you don't nameclaim I will vote for you.

[reborn537]

OK, I've checked the pm thoroughly and I was wrong. Ghostwriter is correct, it seems to be very much the traditional inventing role - although I don't know if people normally make up the names of their inventions when inventing, but that is the case with me.

It looks to me like you faked your inventor claim and then pretended you misread your PM when you realized your claim varied from the traditional inventor role and were worried we would not believe this variant of the role.

I guess it could happen that you really misread it, but, I know I always make sure I understand my role and reread my pm if I'm going to claim. Because it really destroys your credibility if you change your story later.

I am not a fan.

No, you're right, it was stupid of me to midread the pm. These things happen. Luckily it's ok because it's a confirmable role.

[reborn537]

Xtoxm, there is no reason for you not to nameclaim. If you don't nameclaim I will vote for you.

I don't understand why you and GW want him to nameclaim.

What are the reasons not to?

Let me explain. The only reason he would not want to is if he is scum WITHOUT safe claims.

This is pretty obvious really,

FoS EK

[reborn537]

To clarify - he's already claimed. You'll notice that EVERYONE else who has claimed has given their name. Why hasn't he?

[reborn537]

WINE. IN. FRONT. OF. ME.

I believe you are the scum in a one scum, one town lover partnership.

unvote vote xtoxm

[reborn537]

Hahahaa, OMGUS.

[reborn537]

What's your case on me?

[reborn537]

I might think one up later, if someone I remotely care about telling asks.

So yeah, you're voting for me because I'm voting for you. I was going to hold off on you two until tomorrow, but seriously. I think we have the best chance of catching scum by lynching you.

[reborn537]

If you nameclaimed there wouldn't be a problem. I'm starting to think that people are right about the whole - mafia = unnamed FCC thing.

[reborn537]

Kloud - I agree about the speculation thing. I had been thinking about the FCC for ages because Farside has mentioned them a few times. But I guess second-guessing the mod doesn't help.

[reborn537]

Wow, what a case...

The first two points are the same - as I've said, there are only pro-scum reasons for you not to nameclaim, considering you've already claimed.

I didn't see the post where you bated me until after I'd read the following post and voted for you. Honestly, I just ignore posts like that, seeing as they don't help the game and only serve your own vanity.

Point 4 - No. You tried to use a WIFOM argument to say why you weren't nameclaiming. A WIFOM argument is no argument at all, therefore, you are just refusing to nameclaim without giving an argument against it.

Point 5 - You've proved me right on this.

[reborn537]

Because of Xtoxm's refusal to name claim. I can't think of any reason not to, maybe RF would elaborate?

[reborn537]

1.) There are both pro-town and anti-town reasons for Xtoxm to withhold this information.

2.) Xtoxm claimed the information he felt necessary to claim, not because he was brought to L-1 and the town demanded him to claim, but because his lover partner, BG, screeched out her claim under minimal pressure.

3.) There are both pro-town and anti-town reasons for reborn to push Xtoxm to nameclaim.

4.) Reborn has been consistently analyzing people's claims and asking them to reveal the flavor text of their role.

Therefore, I find this whole thing to be kind of null.

I agree with this, and I don't get people who are saying that xtoxm, because he won't name claim, must be scum.

I think xtoxm has been wrong about just about everything he's posted this game, but being wrong doesn't make him scum. The way that he continued to push for LF's lynch even after he took heat for it seems more like a townie who is convinced he's right than scum. I disagree with the idea of lynching LF because of LF's vote limitation, but I think if xtoxm were scum he'd just shut up about it rather than continue to draw attention to himself.

I'm obviously somewhat biased in my analysis, since if xtoxm dies I die, but I think he is likely to be misguided town here.

I consider it more likely to be the other way around. I think BG was a "lazy townie" although it seems she actually really didn't have time to play. You seem to be much more considered and careful, which is good as the town really needs people with some decent reasoning - too many of the posts so far have been unconsidered and irrelevent.

I'm almost willing to hold off on Xtoxm just for the purpose of keeping you alive, but I would also liketo hear some examples of why it's good not to nameclaim. I don't claim to know everything, and this is only my 3rd mini theme on the site, so by all menas feel free to educate me on this.

[reborn537]

• His request for me to nameclaim
• His threat to vote me should I not namclaim
• Him voting me when I baited him
• His use of WIFOM to warrant a vote on me, it is by far usually scum who brings this up
• His accusation of OMUS when I said I could be convinced on his lynch

I hope you see how, even though you have five bullet points listed out here, your case against reborn pretty much consists of the fact that he's voting for you.

Do I even have to quote this for truth?

[reborn537]

You're not even playing the same game as us.

At least when LF went meta he qualified it.

[reborn537]

Wow...

[reborn537]

Kloud

[reborn537]

I don't know about TT, but Kloud is voting for you, and LF has been pushing your lynch for ages.

[reborn537]

lol... I thought I'd stop encountering that kind of thing 9 years ago, when I hit 10 years old.

[reborn537]

If someone can just explain why he's not name claiming, I might rescind my vote! That said, his behaviour since me asking him to do that has just been... bad.

[reborn537]

Go onto the mafia wiki flash animation. I'd never been inventor before, so I went to the flash animation and the inventor description is wrong on there which is why I misunderstood the role pm.

I'll get to the rest of your points in time.

For now, something to consider - xtoxm, do you think anyone who disagrees with you is scum and anyone who agrees with you is town?

[reborn537]

I actually looked it up for ideas on inventions. Now I realise that I will be giving away my inventions, of course I won't give away a Death Ray.

[reborn537]

Also, another note - I claimed because I was about to be the deadline lynch, regardless of the fact that there were only 3 votes on me. With hindsight there were actually only two votes on me, but of course LF's no vote being on me confused me into thinking there were three votes.

[reborn537]

It's worth pointing out that it's not impossible for them both to be scum, although in a game this size it is unlikely.

Anyway, I guess I'll

unvote

I'd been avoiding this for a while because I found things a little awkward after the whole Xtoxm thing.

Well anyway, I guess people are going for me because I got mixed up over my role function? That's fair enough, and it's certainly what I would do in your position so I'm not going to ask for something I wouldn't give.

Just remember not to overlook the Lovers tomorrow, and take another look at all the claimed roles - I expect LF to be roleblocked now I'm getting lynched (obvious scum move to prevent me being confirmed with the dodgy claim was to RB me and then get me lynched tomorrow), so if he says that don't think that he's obv. scum.

[reborn537]

No, it's just extremely common and considering the amount of power roles I consider it emminently possible.

[reborn537]

Kloud, you express extreme confidence in BG being scum. (Ignoring the fact that I disagree with you) This should mean you have extreme confidence that I am town. Yet you express some suspicion for me, too. This makes no sense.

Why is this?

Scum lovers are possible. Let's not talk as if it's ruled out.

Also, I apologise for our little run in a few pages back... things got a bit heated and, well, nevermind I guess. It's only a game.

[reborn537]

I will support a wagon of anyone except the claimed roles over myself.

[reborn537]

If the lovers are both townies, then they are more valuable than me. LF's JOAT role is arguably better than mine. Bodyguard is not necessarily as good as my role, but with the suspicion surrounding me and the fact that a mafia roleblocker could utterly sink me tonight I am a better lynch than IG.

[reborn537]

What was the discrepancy?

[reborn537]

I would like a TT wagon more then a Kloud wagon right now due to his vote on me for voting the lovers and now his vote on the lovers

What page?

[reborn537]

Kloud, you express extreme confidence in BG being scum. (Ignoring the fact that I disagree with you) This should mean you have extreme confidence that I am town. Yet you express some suspicion for me, too. This makes no sense.

Why is this?

^^

This is a pretty common descrepancy for mafia players. But let's be honest, just because someone is suspicious it doesn't mean they have to be scum - I think kloud is hedging his bets and saying that one of you has to be scum because you're both suspicious. In doing so he creates a false dilemma, but I'm not convinced it's deliberate.

[reborn537]

The proper play is to wait for day 2 to lynch either of them. Now is not the time.

vote: Llama

What a bad time to make a terrible idea.

Nice.

vote tt

[reborn537]

Me too. But it's not ruled out.

[reborn537]

Jeez, I go to sleep for 10 measly hours, come back and there's Pizza all over the place...

[reborn537]

STOP with the pizza vote or i will smack a person with a post restriction. Also can you tell me exactly what question you have please!

I believe Xtoxm would like to know whether there is a deadline lynch or a deadline no lynch.

[reborn537]

Probably a coin flip, I think that's pretty standard.

[reborn537]

The way you just suggested is pretty standard as well. I'm just hoping a tie doesn't result in a no lynch.

[reborn537]

I still don't understand how claiming vanilla got EK off the hook when we're not lynching power roles either...

[reborn537]

Infact, if it's the only way ton prevent a lynch scum will likely claim power, we can't just leave them alone for it.

But I think we can on day 1. I am biased, however.

[reborn537]

But I don't understand why reborn is off the hook.

I'm off the hook because the scenario is this -

I have claimed inventor, a confirmable role. Everything else aside, the only way I can not be confirmed tomorrow is if

a) I am lynched today
b) I am roleblocked in night 1
c) I unwittingly give my invention to a scum

If b) or c) occur I invite you to lynch me day 2 and fair play to the mafia.

Therefore, if I am lying, you lynch me day 2 without a second thought.

[reborn537]

Also, if c) occurs and you lynch me, you automatically get scum on day 3 when I flip town having been lynched. If b) occurs you'll know there is a roleblocker and to watch out for it.

Therefore, the only way you outright lose is if you choose a) and lynch me today.

[reborn537]

By the way, anyone who still has votes on me needs to justify it, because the only people who don't stand to gain from following my suggested course of action are the scum.

[reborn537]

Rock, you need to explain to me what part of my idea you don't understand. I thought I made it pretty clear. If there are any holes in it please tell me, I'm eager to make it as foolproof as possible.

[reborn537]

Noone hammer, we need tt to full claim before we lynch him or not, but because he hasn't already claimed I'm guessing he's scum or vanilla.

[reborn537]

OK, let's kick off. Last night I gave a portable forcefield generating device to KMD.

[reborn537]

I've already full-claimed so I think an action-claim is expected of me. I don't think you should action-claim if you don't want to as your role has more to it than mine.

[reborn537]

I dont think mass action claim is a good thing really... but I guess is kmd recieved an item it confirms you are the inventor. I am rereading right now

Exactly, kmd can confirm me for today (then if you think we are both scum I can confirm someone of your choosing tomorrow night and we have three people confirmed).

If kmd doesn't confirm me today then we lynch me today and him tomorrow.

Worth pointing out that given that kmd isn't confirmed if he confirms my forcefield gift to him, only I am. Although given the lack of a nk it could be possible that they targeted him and he used the forcefield generating device to protect himself.

[reborn537]

Actually, LF, why aren't the claimed roles action-claiming?

[reborn537]

Am I missing something here? How can confirming a player help anyone except the town?

[reborn537]

Well I'd like LF to reply - I could be wrong, and if so he should tell me. But I can't see any reason why claimed roles shouldn't post their night actions - what do we lose from that?

[reborn537]

If LF confirms someone it could mean they get killed by mafia sooner...

But if LF dies before revealing his innocent, then his investigation is lost. Which is much worse, IMO.

It won't mean the mafia have any more incentive so kill them than me or LF or IG - I'm assuming LF can't claim the person's role, and if he can then he obviously shouldn't. So yeah, I think we should have LF's info. And IG's as well.

[reborn537]

IG - I think we should wait before you reveal your target. Infact, I think it best you don't reveal it at all, given the nature of your power.

Please explain this.

I feel suffocated as part of a town which is so intent on not gaining useful information with no drawbacks, or, if there are drawbacks, which they won't explain about.

[reborn537]

To expand - finding out IG's target could tell us who the mafia are looking to kill, and then we can begin to explore our motives. I much prefer the psycological and logical side of the game rather than just guessing and almost handicapping ourselves by not revealing the info.

[reborn537]

I can't wait till STD arrives and restores sanity again.

[reborn537]

OK, let's kick off. Last night I gave a portable forcefield generating device to KMD.

I can confirm this.
I got the device.
Still catching up.

Can you tell me if it worked or not? I wasn't told anything except that I was allowed to give you the device.

[reborn537]

I will explain it all near the end of the day, like I said, no point in letting scum know more then they need to this early.

Just wondering: does it really matter if you tell it now or later? If you say it now, what's the difference in saying it at the end of the day?

QFT

[reborn537]

Reborn, IG claiming would really be quite silly. Town has no need to know it, only mafia would want to know that kind of thing. He is a protective power (of sorts) and we know if he is sucessful, because he dies.

There are 2 ways we can use him - Just let him protect who he wants each night, and he should not tell us, or us tell him who to protect, thus garanteeing protectees living through the night, unless scum got themselves an RB. However, is they did Reborn would have been the obvious choice, so as to get him lynched today. (Come to think of it, he wouldn't know if he was blocked, so he still might have been. Gotta wait for Kmd.)

The latter choice has the added advantage of if IG is mafia, we get make them not kill person of our choice. However I do not believe he is, so I say that more from a theoretical viewpoint.

KMD has answered. If the scum had a RB it would be madness not to use it on me.

Are we sure a bodyguard dies if successful? I've never seen one used before. In that case I can only assume the scum targetted KMD and he was protected by my portable forcefield generating device. I'm going to reread to see who KMD was a threat to.

[reborn537]

OK, so his aims include -

Attracting the nightkill
Protecting the powerroles
Contributing during the day

That isn't as good as I thought... isn't there a bodyguard which kills the scum if he protects successfully?

[reborn537]

@KMD Oh cool, I assumed it would work last night. I seriously have no idea what my role does. I was betting it would work like a self-protect last night.

[reborn537]

I notice you have attributed my comment to yourself.

Kmd - Don't reveal it then.

I simulposted again. But I'd like to stress I don't know what a portable forcefield generating device does, I was just guessing.

[reborn537]

I'm very hesitant after yesterday, but I think we need to talk about the whole Joe/Bonnie/??? love triangle after TT flipped town yesterday.

[reborn537]

I must confess I am very much in the "one of them is scum" camp. We said we'd wait until day 2 to decide about them, so we really need to discuss. Xtoxm, I really would like you to nameclaim - that could put this to bed right here right now, and I don't see any anti-town ramifications.

[reborn537]

Her actions look like town in relation to me. Our pregame talk also looks like town to me, who thinks we are both town.

I've been lovers online before, and this sounds absolutely nothing like my relationship with my lover. Every night we were going round in circles thinking the other was scum because we survived until night 4 or something. Our night 2 discussion was something like 80 posts long with a 48 hour deadline. Sadly it was on lj so I don't know if I can link you... I'll try though. I can't imagine why you could possibly be so trusting now you've survived night 1. Lovers are a wonderful target for a scum night kill.

[reborn537]

If anyone wants some meta into the minds of what a lovers relationship SHOULD be like, here we go

http://enlight-bystand.livejournal.com/104723.html

Things to bear in mind - this was a battlestar galactica theme game. I was a pro-town vig, my lover was a vanilla colonial.

Don't feel like you have to read the whole thing, just read the first few posts where he bluffs me and I call his bluff and why. It's why I'm very confused about Xtoxm's lovers relationship with BG. I was literally pulling my hair out as a lover.

[reborn537]

Ok, admittedly I don't know what the scum in this game want to do.

But it's a fair assumption. And i've been scum before.

(Also, I don't like how you say that like an accusation)

More meta - you're well known as a vastly improved townie and a scum with a pretty poor record (although I recognise you've just won twice as scum). You're the ideal person to have in a game of mafia for the town.

[reborn537]

And like i've said, one of us is garanteed town, so you shouldn't be voting us even if you think one is scum until we catch other scum. It's almost scummy.

As we've kept saying, you could both be scum. Unlikely, but possible. And the rest is just wrong. I would always take one dead scum for one dead townie. That's a brilliant exchange rate.