Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[Vi]

Confirming.

I've been through the thread a few times, so I can try to answer any questions you may have for me. Until then, I'm going to see if I can make a coherent post examining this muffinhead wagon.

[Vi]

All right, this is my take on what I know of the muffin

man

head. This is every post he made and every time he was mentioned. It's mostly for reference; if you want to skim just start reading at the big divider at the end.

34 - Makes cheesy remark about being an IC; clarified later in 72 when he said that he joined earlier than everyone here (myself included). Semirandom votes mafiamann.

66 - Accused of being scum by Bogre for the cheesy VoA thing and voting mafiamann for not voting.

72 - Clarifies that he wasn't

really

trying to talk like an IC. Talks down Rhinox's FoS (given for not addressing StrangerCoug's self-vote) by saying that it had already been made an issue and that there wasn't much to add to it. Asks Bogre to elaborate on why mafiamann's no-vote wasn't a scumtell.

73 - Quotes ClockworkRuse to disagree with him. Says that neither Townie nor Scum would put someone into a hammer during the random voting stage, and that ClockworkRuse's annoyance at people getting to L-4 and such was unfounded. Votes ClockworkRuse. Is annoyed that StrangerCoug is being immensely reactionary about people prodding him for his self-vote. Still doesn't like mafiamann.

75 - Blatant metadefense of StrangerCoug.

79 - Cass says she's getting "bad vibes" off StrangerCoug for 75.

80 - StrangerCoug asks Cass why she's getting said bad vibes. (Response from ClockworkRuse 81: Why should anyone besides StrangerCoug have to defend SC?)

113 - Quotes another post by ClockworkRuse to agree entirely with him without further explanation and vote mafiamann. Says mafiamann is getting worse with every post. Tells jon to post more and better.

116 - Bogre complains that muffinhead has not answered any of his questions, and asks Rhinox to examine him.

120 and 121 - Rhinox on muffinhead:

Muffin has actually done 3 things I'm not to fond of. First, calling himself IC when he's only been here since march. Second, calling out mafiamann for not voting and ignoring coug's self vote, and third, for trying to meta-defend coug. In fact, points 2 and 3 both point to a possible scum partnership between muffin and coug.

what I mean is, muffin called out mafiamann but completely ignored coug's self vote. Calling out mafiamann is not the problem - doing so while ignoring coug kinda is.

I'm in no way attacking muffin for this right now - he did already answer for it. Just saying its one of the things about muffin that I found unsettling.

141 - Questions mafiamann for asking people to claim.

(This is hopefully a typo; mafiamann claimed vanilla himself but never asked for anyone else to claim)

Says that mafiamann is quick to claim and accuses him of reading straight from the sample PM "as he goes" (spread between several posts). Asks Bogre what questions he wanted answered in the first place and then comes back saying that Bogre never answered one of his (muffinhead's) posts. States comfort with a mafiamann lynch.

142 - Bogre asks muffinhead his thoughts on Rhinox.

143 - muffinhead repeats his earlier question about why Bogre thought the no-random-vote was not a scumtell. Says that Rhinox is textbook Awesome Town.

144 - mafiamann tells muffinhead that he's doing his best to paraphrase his own PM so he doesn't get modkilled.

147 - Bogre settles the question asked to him by calling it moot.

226 - Apologizes for inactivity and yells at mafiamann for self-hammering if he's Town.

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251 - Cass prods muffinhead.

257 - wolframhart agrees with prodding muffinhead, saying he's past the time he said his homework was due (by two days at this point).

262 - Quotes Ectomancer's post from the previous day. Lambasts him for trying to psychoanalyze the already-dead ClockworkRuse and guess that as an SK or alternative Mafia ClockworkRuse was scumhunting on mafiamann. Votes Ectomancer for it. FoSs wolframhart for agreeing with Ectomancer on this. FoSs StrangerCoug for only talking about mafiamann the VI (no stale humor here or I'll demonstrate how sharp meerkat teeth are) all day.

263 - wolframhart responds to muffinhead by identifying which parts of Ectomancer's argument he agreed with.

265 - muffinman is indeed pleased by 263 and feels better about wolframhart and (to an extent) Ectomancer! Asks Bogre who he thinks the scum is.

266 - Ectomancer criticizes muffinhead for criticizing his wall, saying that at the time they didn't know ClockworkRuse's alignment. Notes that muffinhead never said anything about ClockworkRuse's argument in the first place.

267 - StrangerCoug responds to muffinhead's accusation by saying that the VI thing was all he had thought of at that point.

286 - Votes StrangerCoug for apparently reaching to find reasons to vote Bogre, calling him opportunistic. Asks for scummy quotes about Bogre and for Bogre to defend himself. Asks wolframhart why he thinks StrangerCoug's self-vote was nothing more than a Terrible Idea that blew out of control. Says he's losing interest in the game.

287 - jon says that muffinhead's Ecto vote was about as baseless as what muffinhead claimed Ecto's mafiamann vote was. Tells muffinhead that the Bogre case seemed somewhat self-explanatory.

289 - Rhinox FoSs muffinhead for saying he might wind up lurking due to interest in the game but being too proud to seek replacement. Also questions how he CAN'T see the case against Bogre.

290 - wolframhart

also

asks muffinhead how he can't see the argument against Bogre, and also that StrangerCoug was just being overzealous.

292 - StrangerCoug denies that his Bogre vote was opportunistic, saying he had legitimate reason to vote. FoSs muffinhead.

293 - curiouskarmadog votes muffinhead on the basis of saying "to tell the truth".

295 - Rhinox hypothesizes that muffinhead and Bogre are scumpartners, and votes curiouskarmadog for his extremely lame idea of a scumtell. (You can probably guess where I stand on the issue.)

296 - curiouskarmadog responds by saying that the vote was not an instance of jumping onto a bandwagon because muffinhead was not being bandwagoned.

(Note that this is the second vote on muffinhead, and that three people in the last six posts had FoSd muffinhead.)

Asks Rhinox if he thinks ckd is being opportunistic in jumping

off

the current bandwagons, and challenges Rhinox by asking if he thought ckd's vote was based solely on that "tell", remarking that Rhinox never asked about it until he had already attacked/defended muffinhead in the same post.

(At least I guess that's the interpretation; this post alongside ckd's usual posting habits sets off so many red flags that I don't know what to do with them all)

297 - jon mumbles that he's leaning toward muffinhead being scum, and that a lot of people agree to some extent.

299 - muffinhead asks why he thinks he and Bogre are scumpartners. Calls ckd entirely wrong and turns the "to be honest" argument around on him. Offers to post about Bogre later.

300 - ckd asks what he could possibly be dishonest about.

301 - Rhinox clarifies his case on muffinhead and Bogre being scumpartners should Bogre flip scum.

302 - ckd outlines why he doesn't like muffinhead... the cheesy IC thing at the beginning, his quasi-lurking, the StrangerCoug vote in 286, and the "tell".

303 - Ectomancer seems to want answers from muffinhead about the questions asked by ckd and Bogre. Not that he's not suspicious of either of them.

304 - StrangerCoug wants to yell at muffinhead and ckd for engaging in a semantics argument.

(It was actually ckd and Rhinox, but whatever.)

Votes muffinhead on the basis of being hypocritical about activity levels and going really hard on him D1.

305 - Cass doesn't discount the "honesty" tell. Refuses to unvote Bogre, although muffin-scum doesn't seem unlikely.

307 - muffinhead attacks StrangerCoug for unvoting Bogre but HoSing him instead

(WTF?)

and demands to know when he said StrangerCoug was uninterested in the game. Explains that while he never thought Bogre was scummy, he didn't understand the arguments against him and wanted them stated more clearly, perhaps like this. Asks Cass to explain what he (muffinhead) has done that would be scummy. Says that this is definitely gonna be his last Mafia game in frustration.

308 - jon responds to muffinhead's request for a clear case against Bogre by saying that someone had already made it (StrangerCoug, I believe).

309 - Cass says she's inclined to believe that Bogre and muffinhead are scumbuddies.

311 - ckd taunts muffinhead for not responding to 300.

312 - StrangerCoug goes at muffinhead for his claims of willful inactivity and shows where muffinhead asked StrangerCoug why he didn't care about D1.

313 - Rhinox votes muffinhead for being dead weight.

314 - wolframhart talks about how he definitely explained his suspicions about Bogre in 264, yet muffinhead wanted more information. Believes Bogre and muffinhead are scumpartners, and says that muffinhead is trying to buy Bogre more time. Votes muffinhead.

315 - Ectomancer responds to the "dead weight" bit by saying that they lose a number, a cushion of Townie against LyLo if you will.

316 - StrangerCoug tells muffinhead to claim or die.

317 - Cass threatens to hammer based on the claim mentioned in 316. Asks for Bogre's opinion on muffinhead.

324 - ckd asks jon about his case against muffinhead.

327 - Rhinox says that he's sticking to his vote on muffinhead, but doesn't like 316. Says there shouldn't be a hammer before Bogre/I say something.

If you feel misrepresented somehow, please say so.

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My personal conclusions:

I agree with the muffinhead lynch. He's not necessarily Commando, but between his eagerness to vote mafiamann D1 and his overall deficient responses to the Cloud of Suspicion D2 it would be tough to make a case for his Towniness following the random vote stage. Either way, as of now he's acting as dead weight and a scumminess magnet that will just distract from future conversation. I agree with Rhinox; it's a utility lynch that I believe will help more than keeping him alive.

With that said, I would also caution that there are plenty of other people who at least deserve investigation as well. The major problem I had in analyzing this game is that there are so many people making my scumdar squeal that it's terribly difficult to try and pick out who exactly is most likely to be Mafia. Here's an idea of where everyone stands with me.

*StrangerCoug could have fooled me at the beginning of the game, but as of now I'm willing to believe he's Town.
*curiouskarmadog seems scummy to me; either he or jonathantan86 would get my vote if I were to place one (on someone other than muffinhead). I confess I have a very negative reaction to short posts that ignore capitalization, but until very recently his posts have been pretty devoid of use. I really don't buy his tell, but when he mentioned it was also when he started posting things of substance, so :\
*jonathantan86 needs to explain why he only posts every two-to-five days. I really don't like it, considering he misses so much. Plus--

Besides I don't think that we would lynch someone without discussion. Town wouldn't put the vote count so close to 7, and scum (supposing SC is town) wouldn't want to do that either because it may make them look scummy.

FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.

This in particular bothers me. You're

banking that StrangerCoug is scum in order to look for other scum bussing him

in this post.
*I'm okay with Ectomancer for the moment. He's been the closest person to being called scummy based on his arguments, as opposed to being obviously lurky and half-baked, and tbqh that's better than average for where we're at right now.
*wolframnhart, whose name I'm sure I got wrong a couple of times already in this post... I'm a little uneasy, but I think he's generally okay.
*Cass is giving me some sinister vibes from some of her posts, which worries me.

Ok, jonathan, i may not agree with you everywhere, but that was good content.
Unvote

Also, just to keep things absolutely clear: I never intened to lynch this paricular lurker. If I want someone lynched I'll generally use the word 'lynch' in my case on them...

This is one example.
*I don't see a case on Rhinox being anything but Town.

^^Bear in mind these are fairly short summaries and not the full cases. Except in Rhinox's case, anyway.

For the love of millipedes, I'm NOT muffinhead's scumbuddy. I obviously can't defend everything Bogre did (or didn't do), but I would also say that there are people who have posting habits that are about as poor or worse (curiouskarmadog and jonathantan86 come to mind). So I know I'm here at a disadvantage, but I'll do everything I can to help.

Lastly,

If violence doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough.

I hope you don't mind me "borrowing" this quote. *yoink*

Wall of text, at your service. Sorry if I seem a bit "on edge" right now.

----------------------

Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.

I'm not sure you realize what you're saying. By not committing to a vote and position on who you want lynched, you're never taking a stand, but willing to do whatever won't get you in trouble. Being able to vote people and cast suspicion on them without being held responsible is the kind of ability scum players dream of. And it seems to me that there's a double-bandwagon going on - one dominant one on muffinhead, and one on Bogre/me, the alleged scumpartner.
And rest assured, at the moment Bogre needs no more pressure votes.

Make a choice. Who do you think is most worthy of a lynch right now? Vote them. If you decide someone else is more worthy of a lynch, tell why.

[Vi]

Quick thing though, you wrote this part to Jon, but I also have to ask you this question because you say you are good with a muffin lynch, but havent voted him, you also find a few others scummy, but haven't FoSed or voted them. I'm not in a hurry to end this day by any means, but it seemed a lil contradictory to me.

That's true. But consider how it would have been if I HAD voted muffinhead immediately.
"Okay, this is this massive wall of text where I cut into a bunch of people, and you're not going to be able to talk about it until tomorrow because I'm going to jump in and hammer with my first post! rawr"

ckd's got it right. I'm going to hammer, but I wanted to let people respond to what I put in my wall. I'll give... 48 hours from my previous post or until everyone says something. If someone's going to say anything to convince me muffinhead SHOULDN'T be offed, that's enough time to raise an objection. Sound good?

Oh, and I'm not one to FoS people. If I don't like what you're doing, I'll say so, and you'll know it. At length.

[Vi]

Hai Cass!

I don't really like Vi painting Muffin as a good 'utility lynch'. Not because it isn't true, it just feels off, coming from him.

Rest assured I've endorsed the same concept before in the interest of keeping the game going and leaving the people most interested in playing.

Even so, that's purely a meta-argument, Cass (albeit less blatant than what muffinhead did to defend StrangerCoug). I'm disappointed.

VI

*bites with sharp meerkat teeth*

I find this latest development to be an odd one. If Bogre is considered to be 'ok' for now, how are we still going after Muffin for bussing Bogrescum? I know there is more, but it seems like one leg was just kicked out.

You bring up a good point. As of now, you effectively have my word that I'm not muffinhead's scumbuddy, whereas muffinhead very specifically asked a couple of times about what was wrong with Bogre and Bogre kept a grudge from early on against muffinhead for the cheesy IC bit. So I can understand where you're coming from.

[Vi]

Hey Vi! I know I usually hate replacements into games, but since we had to have one, I'm glad its you. (I also know how you play, so its going to be an extremely fun game from here on out).

Hai Rhinox! I just hope this game doesn't turn into Death By Wall; spending three hours on one post is not a pleasant experience.

While I cant discount the pressure for him to claim, I find this latest development to be an odd one. If Bogre is considered to be 'ok' for now, how are we still going after Muffin for bussing Bogrescum? I know there is more, but it seems like one leg was just kicked out.

Why not go ahead and look at my wall of Everything You'd Need To Know About Muffy? The gist of what I can see at a glance is that he was quite bent on the mafiamann lynch D1 and has been more or less dazed, confused, and least helpful of all D2.

Before muffin even claimed, she is already submitting that she might have a problem hammering. Also unsettling is that Cass is asking for the second time for muffin to claim (note: muffin is still inactive, and would presumedly read all the requests to claim - no need to keep demanding it) and what is especially concerning is that Cass is specifically asking for information that would help the town that would presumedly only come from a power role. This is basically the same thing Clock did by asking for "more flavor".

Good catch. I need to stop just focusing on myself when responding to people.

Remember, Cass and I can easily go Meta you and show examples of you using FoS's.

I remember one HoS and one FoS clearly, but that's it. I really do want to use the Middle Finger of Suspicion sometime though

I sort of feel it would be better for the game and for the town if we could just get a replacement for him. It wouldn't be ideal if we lynched him and he is town, but at the same time, I don't think we can afford to have a dead weight anchor around who doesn't want to scum hunt and wont be active and just wants to be able to say "I won" at the end of the game without providing any effort whatsoever. I also don't agree that we could just blindly accept his townie claim if he isn't going to actively try to help the town.

So my ultimatum would read like this:

Muffin, start being actively protown, get replaced, or die for asking permission to be a lurker.

The problem is that muffinhead

doesn't want to be replaced

and has said as much. So... Hm. I don't want to back down on my 48-hour deadline, but at the same time I agree that muffinhead's player slot would benefit most from a replacement (heck, Bogre's did) and the ultimatum Rhinox put out.

Should we let muffinhead post again (and I'd only give him one shot), or should we just off him and be done with it? I still favor the deadline personally, but I'd like some input again.

P.S. Vi, if only Rishi would get soulmonarch to replace in for muffin, this would really turn into one hell of a game, don't you think?

"Hell" is one way of interpreting what this game would turn into. But I think it would be fun~

VI

*bites you as well with sharp meerkat teeth*

something about this statement doesnt sit right with me. if muffin is a townie, how do you know that the SK (if we have another) or scum are not already on the wagon?

You have a point. I don't buy the meta that people who hammer are always scum, or that scum always want to hammer. Everyone on a successful wagon is responsible for the death.

To that end, I agree with Ectomancer 348 that Rhinox's attempt to pin the tail on the scummy is WIFOMtastic - that Ectomancer looks bad in his analysis regardless of whether he hammers or not (and whether he's scum or not).

[Vi]

I believe that Cloud of Suspicion you referenced was strongly tied to a Muffin/Bogre scum pairing, which is why I asked about it in the first place. Could you elaborate on that Cloud of Suspicion? It is a foggy term to me.

It's a term I made up on the spot~

Looking through my analysis, it seems that muffinheadxBogre started in 286 when muffinhead asked what the arguments were against Bogre, correct? That seems to be the dominating reason people are interested in muffinhead; most or all of youse have said it at one point. But there are still a few sticking points on him.

To be all honest i think im beginning to lose intrest in this game so I will try to keep up as much as posible and try not to e a lurker as I personally hate them

...which Rhinox took to mean "I'll lurk, hope you understand". So far he's doing a good job of lurking, and we're doing a good job of understanding - but as far as what we understand of it, I'm sure muffinhead wouldn't like.

post about bogre later

I haven't seen it.

His claims of semi-intentional inactivity and thoughtlessness aren't helping. ckd 311 shows that muffinhead's feeble attempt to turn around even ckd's sketchtastic tell failed. StrangerCoug's 312 is more interesting as a display of hypocrisy based on activity.

One could even make a case for muffinhead being another VI. By giving muffinhead generous helpings of the benefit of the doubt, I can interpret his posts to where they're actually not terribly scummy. Here's an example.

Im trying to understand the bogre case and i would like to request quotes of his scumminess if you want me to even consider joining the wagon. I would like to hear from bogre defend him self again.

I never said that i didnt think bogre was scummy. I said i dont understand the cases against him. In fact its quite annoying that he hasnt posted in ages. It seemed that no one liked his defence the orginal time so im asking him to do it again.

At the time, muffinhead has been fixated on StrangerCoug for a while now. In the first post he's asking about the case on Bogre and asks for reasons he would be considered scummy. Until then, he's on fire for StrangerCoug and not gonna budge. He then clarifies to say that while he thinks Bogre is scummy, he's still not the best choice as compared to StrangerCoug, but wants to see Bogre defend himself anyway (what exactly muffinhead thought Bogre should defend, other than perhaps "everyone else's reasons for thinking he's scummy", is unclear).

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But to actually see him as scum... Looking back at Day 2, his argument against Ectomancer and wolframnhart wasn't that bad from a feasibility standpoint... but his StrangerCoug arguments were a bit flimsy (not necessarily so much when reading through the rose-tinted glasses I used above, but still weak), and for the rest of the day he's just been floundering. As I said before, I don't think he's necessarily Commando, but he's draining time and attention from the Town and unlikely to improve on his own.

Now as a summary i am losing intrest in this game and this will most likly be my last game on ms while I have a break. Well actully i will mod a game then leave as thats what ive always wanted to do. Now i would like to go out in fassion with a win which is why i havnt decided to be replaced. But when you just dont have that intrest in the game its hard to find scum and help so if im lurking and looking scummy then I do apologies for letting the town down but it still means im here and I will help to the best that i can do.

Literally, he's staying in this game for his own pride. That's why I would like for him to be replaced.

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Alright, his eagerness to vote MafiaMann? I'm not certain that I saw it that way. He agreed with Clock's case when it was presented, and it was Clock's case that I referenced when I decided to also vote for MafiaMann. Why would he not stay on the wagon when I referenced the exact case he said he approved of?

Hmm... This is the non-quoted part of the post where muffinhead jumps on the mafiamann wagon.

This is an excellent post. I feel much better about clock so

unvote, vote mafiamann

He is acutally getting worse by the post, every post he makes looks odd in some sort of way and the above post explains alot which I totally agree with. At the moment he stands out as scummiest player to me more then anyone else.

Which is okay, I suppose, but then he doesn't say anything else until--

@ mafiamann- why are you going out there asking people to claim? You seem keen to get out there and reveal urself. Also your claim says everything the vanillia role says and it sounds as if your reading it as you go which looks really suspecisious.

I really don't buy this last sentence. Anyway, that's all muffinhead says about mafiamann until

within two hours

of his self-vote, curiously beating Rishi locking the thread.

I suppose I misspoke in saying that he was "eager" to vote mafiamann, basing that on his blanket "I agree with Clocksarian2" reason for voting; but then I reread to see that he added some of his own reason to his vote justification in 113. However, this does more clearly demonstrate that muffinhead was only slightly more contributory when he was active than when he was totally absent. Hence the utility lynch.

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Part of the issue people were having with Muffin was that he could not see the case on

your

role Vi. Are you saying there

is

a good case on you and Muffin should have seen it?

Easy, easy. *points the gun away from me like Bugs Bunny would*
As I said earlier, I can't justify everything Bogre did, and I will confess I had a lot of doubts about what I was getting into when I replaced in. (So sue me, I got bored and I've wanted to replace into a game ever since Cass replaced into one of mine.) But as it turns out (with some surprise), Bogre was - and thus I am - pro-Town. Thus, I'm... not pleased about muffinhead missing the arguments about Bogre and asking

twice

about them, because it does make my slot look pretty terrible. I understand a desire to see exactly what has made people upset about someone else, but at the same time, he kind of DID just miss a direct answer to it (although muffinhead did ask for quotes). I honestly don't know how muffinhead overlooked that answer entirely, aside from going right by it while skimming the latest posts when he was getting ready to post again.

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I feel like I'm repeating myself to the point of being obnoxious for stating an overall conclusion, but here it is. I don't think there's enough here to safely say that it's most probable that muffinhead is scum. I do agree with offing him so we don't have to get hung up on him again, since I have to question the amount and quality he has contributed to the game. I would rather he be replaced, though, but if he specifically doesn't want that to happen, so be it. (If he's going to be replaced, according to the rules of the game the replace-request will be sent out next Monday.) I affirm separately that there are more people who need time under the microscope, but we can just as easily do that tomorrow if today's lynch is generally accepted.

[Vi]

Very well. If you do not want muffinhead lynched, then there's an obvious follow-up question: What would you recommend we do instead? I would rather not have the game sit around until next month for muffinhead to be replaced (even if it fits the absence in my sig).

[Vi]

Forgive me if it seemed like I was misrepresenting you; you effectively answered what I meant. To make sure we're on the same page, let me paraphrase what was said.

Q: What should we do now, if we're not going to lynch muffinhead immediately?
A: Leave muffinhead at L-1 until he claims and hear from everyone else to see if the muffinhead lynch is indeed a good move in light of what has been said most recently; but also look into jonathantan86 while we're waiting so as to go after someone who IYO has a better case for being Mafia right now and will give us some direction after the muffinhead issue has passed.

Is that about correct? Well, as of now I guess I can look into jon.

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FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.

Red flag: You're effectively assuming StrangerCoug is scum (for reasons you've already mentioned) and saying there are already other scum on the wagon to bus him. Certainly not the conventional argument.
Red flag: Yet you only FoS StrangerCoug... is this perhaps to ensure you're not on the wagon? Or are you hinting that you have a scumbuddy on the wagon?
I don't know what to say about this other than that it feels very wrong.
(BTW, the wagon at this point is MafiaMann, Cass, Ectomancer, and Rhinox.)

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

A fairly useless post. Also his first post in three days. Explains it in 165, two days later.

Um the reason I asked for the topics of conversation is because all my ideas were based on that and I did not want to miss anything out.

(What ideas, and what do you think you're missing out on?)
He puts a "tentative" vote on ClockworkRuse here for reasons that check out.

In 200, he does some noodling with quasi-defending mafiamann "because he doesn't want a mislynch". He doesn't take a stand on anyone. Turned around by Rhinox 213. In 216 jon says he didn't think half of the arguments against mafiamann were scumtells at all prior to 200, and sort of leans against Mafiamann at that point.

In 216 jon focuses on the meta and suggests for someone to try to look for connections between ClockworkRuse and someone else.

In 287... well... it's weak all around. Seriously. He takes aim at a part of muffinhead's vote on Ectomancer and also says

Hmm...I thought a few people have already explained the bogre case? It is possibly opportunistic, but I think there are good reasons for voting for bogre.

In 297 and 308, about a day and a half apart, he gives small cases against people but doesn't vote anyone and doesn't really seem committed to anyone. He only says that muffinhead and Bogre "might be scum".

318 is the one Ectomancer quoted. Still very noncommittal, doesn't want to vote seriously unless absolutely sure (according to him), didn't vote yesterday because he apparently disagreed with the case on mafiamann (orly?), and pressure votes Bogre.

In 323 he comments about the setup again and says that he's leaning more toward Bogre now even though his vote was apparently only for pressure and he had previously thought Coug and ckd were a scumpair.

In 331 he takes a middle ground against muffinhead and sort of says that his vote is meaningless, sort of a pressure vote like the two against him early D1.

I think muffinhead is

[most worthy of a vote]

, but I'll wait for him to claim.

I should have asked earlier: Why do you think that?

-----------------------

It's difficult to tell if it's lame play or if he's being deliberately wishy-washy IMO. From 318 on, though, it goes downhill.

And sorry for the long summaries; they're kind of for me considering I haven't been around in this game for the longest time.

Now someone else post, dangit.

[Vi]

Still waiting.

I'm curious to hear jonathan respond to Vi-362. I think Vi brought up some very good points.

So are we.

Anyway, I'm about to leave shortly, so sorry if I can't be here over the next few days :\

[Vi]

EBWOP: That's Rhinox 369.

[Vi]

All right, I'm back.

First thing, against jon.

About hinting that I have a scumbuddy on the wagon, if that were true (and if I were scum) I wouldn't have wanted to draw attention to that; I could have just put suspicion on SC.

Don't use "if I were scum" in an argument; it's WIFOM.

I still don't like this comment. I'm not going to accept this as a cleared issue.

----------

And now the whole muffincop deal.

Also whats interesting is based on the Wiki article, I got the impression that Yosarian was a bit insane. Muffin could be an insane cop, but that would mean Cass is scum. Does anyone know if we lynch muffin an he is a cop, will we be told of his sane-ness or will it just say "Cop". I have a hard time believing "Yossarian" to be a sane cop based on his character description - but then again, I know you can't jump to conclusions based on the character name because sometimes role doesn't follow the character description (for example, I think I read somewhere of a disney mafia game where dopey from the 7 dwarves was the mafia godfather).

I'd agree with the last sentence. I confess everything I know about Meerkat Manor comes directly from the wiki, but I'm against trying to outguess the mod here. He claims to be a Cop to have pulled an innocent on Cass. That's all we've got.

@Ectomancer 379: Ooh, nice catch.

1. It makes no sense to investigate somebody you have a null read on. If muffinhead is as experienced as he claims to be, then he would know better than this.

Actually, early in the game it's a good idea. I think a topic in the Mafia Discussion forum was about this very situation.

I'm fine with somebody hammering.

That would be my job, or else jon's, Cass's, or Ectomancer's. Just to put it out there.

The point I'm trying to make is we're not sure he'll get another investigation. If there is a mafia roleblocker, the cop is done unless we lynch the blocker. If there is no blocker, but we have a doc, we might get more investiations, but there is no guarentee. If our doc gets nked, or lynched (or has to claim at L-1) then we lose the doc and the cop anyways.

If we lynch muffin and he is a cop, yes that confirms you as innocent, but you're not necessarily going to be the nk if we have a doc. A bad situation is that we leave muffin alive and he starts feeding us more investigation results that we are not sure we can believe. I'm almost leaning towards leaving him alive one more night to see if he can give us one more investigation "result" tomorrow, and then policy lynching for the information we get from the two results (presumedly, 2 confirmed townies). And, if he can investigate scum tonight, that might just save his life.

However, as other have expressed, I don't believe his claim at all. Plus, he claimed and then disapeared again. And I don't like how he said "roving male (aka cop)" like roving male automatically means cop. But, whats the worst thing that could happen if we leave him alive? he gives us another innocent tomorrow, we policy lynch, and then we don't have 2 confrimed innocents. We lynch him today and he's scum, we don't have 1 confrimed innocent. He manages to get an investigation and finds scum, we get to kill a scum AND keep our cop a while longer.

However, I am kind of worried about one thing. If he is an sk-predator. He asked us to give him one more night, maybe so he could make a kill tonight? That only makes sense if his target was doc-protected night 1. Do we give him the chance to take one of us out before he goes?

What if muffincop does produce a scum result? We will have the option of either policy lynching muffincop or lynching his scum target, and right now that's not a decision I feel comfortable with. That's the "worst-case scenario" if it happens.

There is a chance that muffinhead is telling the truth, which brings up another question: Is it worth keeping a non-helpful Townie around? in other words, is the utility lynch option still viable? Seeing as how muffinhead hasn't posted since his roleclaim, I would say it's at least a good question.

I'm about 75% for lynching muffinhead right now. I think my final answer would hinge on the utility lynch question again.

@Ectomancer: Surely flavor is not the only reason you want muffinhead alive.

[Vi]

@Ectomancer: Surely flavor is not the only reason you want muffinhead alive.

I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

So if I'm following you correctly, you're bringing up the possibility that muffinhead is a Commando-aligned Alignment Cop that can be twisted into giving accurate results. I don't buy that the Commandoes have an Alignment Cop to detect predators. Had muffinhead claimed Role Cop, that might have changed things a bit, but as it stands he claimed specifically to pull up an Innocent on Cass. Ergo, this reason is shot.

Your other reason, of course, is flavor-based. Based on these very weak points in muffinhead's favor, I'm led to conclude that you're hiding something for being willing to stall the muffinlynch with them, which in turn makes me want to see muffinhead flip (since you were the one saying "don't lynch muffinhead" all along). Regrettably, I can't hammer any more, but I can keep the option open for someone else. I wouldn't blame anyone for ending the day.

Vote: muffinhead

[Vi]

I would like to hear his thoughts on everyone before he goes..either way this will provide a ton of information. I think his claim is bullshit....what I find strange is that Vi voted AFTER my unvote and request for information from muffin, is there some reason you didnt want to hammer Vi, but wanted to be part of the lynch?

Valid question. My vote was a response to Ectomancer's rather terrible defense of muffinhead, not your unvote. Considering that Ectomancer was the leader of the "let's not lynch muffinhead" voice and has done such a poor job of defending him, I believe I have a more compelling reason to see muffinhead lynched now than sheer utility. If he flips scum, then Ectomancer has painted a giant target on himself. If he flips Cop, I daresay we haven't lost much (and I would still look out for Ectomancer, because I find his terrible reasoning to be suspicious all over).

Your unvote was unrelated; it just happened to be between my post and Ectomancer's. I'll take responsibility for the lynch just as much as everyone else on the wagon; I'm not trying to shift responsibility by not hammering somehow.

And now to you:

at any rate, I will return my vote and hammer unless, muffin provides something soon!

Define "soon".

[Vi]

*last seen near Disney's talent agency aside a warthog named Pumbaa*

[Vi]

Well that came out the opposite way of what I expected. You are so evil for giving Rhinox an obv. SK claim and Ectomancer a working Godfather claim. (I expected Rhinox to be the sole survivor again as soon as he claimed NK immunity...)

I'm really opposed to clearing people on flavor (which seemed to be a large part of why Ectomancer evaded suspicion, for instance)... Rishi, you designed the game; what's your take on that sort of argument?

What exactly were the roles, anyway? I can vouch that Babysitter = Doctor. I can also beat Rhinox over the head for this--

This is also why I ignored the fact initially that Vi's role was a bodyguard type role - I knew I was a pup, and I doubted that I would get double protection. I didn't really think though that there might be other pups.

How was Bogre supposed to know you were NK-immune? :\

-------------

...wow, I just realized this is the first time I've ever won as Town (on the other site I play on, Town has

never

won). I feel special for all of the six days I was here <.<

[Vi]

Hey ckd, what about that "To be honest" tell?

[Vi]

Yes, just an ordinary Doctor with a cool name.

Yeah, I did like my role a lot, but I knew if I wasn't very pro-town plus hopefully preventing at least 1 nk, my claim probably wouldn't have saved me. Especially if you really thought I was secretely an sk... Although I understand why you would think that given the outcome of our newbie game If anything, you'll really have to think about me next time we play together because I don't think there was too much different between how I played this game and how I played my first game.

Suffice to say I was quite "displeased" after my death when I saw what looked like Ectomancer getting off easily, quickly followed by your claim. (Almost as "displeased" as when it was revealed that both of you were pro-Whiskers, but that displeasure was toward a different party.) Up until your claim, I was willing to believe you were confirmed Town - remember, I was told coming in that you were protected N1 and there was no successful kill.

It can also be sufficed to say that if I'm in another game with you, you

will

be my random vote~
But I'd like to see you again sometime.

so I can random vote you and/or take vindictive measures

[Vi]

Hey jon, did you think I was scum after I replaced in and posted for a while?

I dont know whther anyone has the same problem but when Im scum I have to focus on every single post which takes forever. To type a decent post would take half an hour to an hour.

I do that regardless of my role.
IMO the only thing worse than being caught in my own words as Scum is being caught in my own words as Town and lynched for Scum. (That's the definition of a VI... *rimshot*)

Now I personally couldnt believe when vi was nked. I had set him up to look incredibly suspicious and he was just killed off. I would like to hear from some townies oponions about how they wouldve treated vi on day 3 if he was still alive. Maybe he was less sus but SURELY the town would have to highly consider him being scum in that situation.

Don't underestimate the power of a competent replacement to set aside everyone's suspicions. ...I learned that one from Cass.
The only person I could see flinging suspicion on me D3 would have been ckd, and now it's more understandable why

Everyone should take note of how rhinox let everyone know his feelings and emotions. That is what made him definatly pro-town and something almost impossible for scum to copy.

It's possible.