Mini Theme 2172: Great Idea Mafia - Game Over
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Location: Notts, UK.
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3909
- Joined: April 25, 2006
- Location: Notts, UK.
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Joined: April 25, 2006
- Location: Notts, UK.
Agree.In post 57, iamausername wrote:VOTE: Rannygazoo
naked vote on NPOM in the midst of discussion surrounding his claim is scummy. explain yourself.
VOTE: Rannygazoo
The deck has a few interesting quirks in the kind of setups it comes out with, it's worth looking at the role list and thinking what implications that has on the kind of scum arrangements you're likely to see in a game.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Don't get this, but alright.In post 76, iamausername wrote:
i find the minor details here to make your story believable. you could have said the claim drew your attention and was thusly the reason for your vote, you could have said that you hadn't seen the claim at all, but saying neither is an unexpected twist.In post 68, Rannygazoo wrote:I did see that there was a gravedigger claim, but I didn’t realize at the time that it was from NPOM.
you have passed the test. congratulations.
I've played this setup a lot face to face so I can answer, although its not really a useful discussion to have until later in the day imho.In post 77, Rannygazoo wrote:UNVOTE:
To people who have played setup before, would you care to link to a typical game so the rest of us know what to expect?
1. Don't be surprised if there are weird scum arrangements. 1 werewolf/1 alien/1 SK is plausible. Group scum is possible but not certain.
2. The amount of named townies and the fact that a lot of roles have scum equivalents makes role claiming odd.
Tracking NPOM to two people doesn't mean anything. If the Mafia kill X and Werewolves kill Y, NPOM is still going to be tracked to two people, regardless of whether they actually targetted either of them. It's only relevant if NPOM gets tracked to someone that *doesn't* die.
Interesting shout, this one.In post 107, Noraa wrote:Shelly the way u started off this game reminds me a shit ton of ur scum games. Ur scum games always start off looking very very protown. However when ur town, u always start off meh or really scummy :/
Yeah, I think this is broadly correct. It's kind of a shallow reading, as expected, this early in the game, but these are the people signalling town, and for these reasons.In post 132, shellyc wrote:username - efforts to solve renny and move the game out of RVS is protown
titus - engaging noraa instead of chilling off and further the game is protown
npom - because of claim
noraa - gut town + critical thinking and paranoia in 129-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Just not wild about this post generally, it made from the perspective of someone who has been challenged on their vote on someone and hasn't yet removed it. Could be performative justification. Maybe I'm tunneling too early, idk.In post 74, Rannygazoo wrote:In post 69, NoPowerOverMe wrote:Yes one tracker should get two kill results now that I think about it.In post 71, NoPowerOverMe wrote:Wait no. The watcher has to watch the person being killed. Tracker could get two results though if I am thinking about it correctly.
Yes, yes, and yes.In post 72, NoPowerOverMe wrote:The roled are random so a vanilla majority is not guaranteed.
IMO posting about mechanics like this is a scumtell because it’s just fluff. It gives the illusion of contributing without bringing us any closer to finding scum. Don’t do this after I said I believed your claim-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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I'm asking redcardinal specifically because they've posted mostly game speculation stuff, but also changed their vote from a RVS vote, to you, so the implication there is that they have something, but aren't really talking about it in favour of instead weighing in on setup stuff. The question itself is just a more provocative way of asking "what are your thoughts".-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Yeah.In post 167, shellyc wrote:why do I find myself agreeing with everything redcardinal posts, red is super town
I read herta as a bit more of a complex situation than you in particular are acknowledging, but broadly I think there could be something there.
UNVOTE: Rannygazoo
VOTE: Herta
(Unrelated, but if Noraa/shelly meta is based on literally one game we can talk about I care about it a lot less, pshaw)-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3909
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- Location: Notts, UK.
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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The latter, but think I'm wrong after running some example setups. Most of them had at least one pair. I'm used to smaller games of this. I retract any comments I had about this, feel free to do associations.In post 189, EchoVision wrote:
can you explain "likely to not have group scum" for meIn post 175, Primate wrote:@RedCardinal: I don't see how you could possibly reach that conclusion in a game that's quite likely to not have group scum.
like you think there's no factions, and each non-town aligned player is like 1sk, 1ww, etc?
or am i reading it wrong-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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I didn't think you were actually scumclaiming, I think that faking a scumclaim is in itself scummy.In post 191, Herta wrote:Jeez people. Get a grip.
You got me scumclaiming to conceding to claiming saulus. How does that work?
I did seal=saulus because that gif/post seemed to be a "I can't be bothered to do this, I'll roll over and die" concession, there's a slight name association, and Saulus is one of the few roles that might actually want to be lynched D1.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Also, Noraa, maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm not comfortable with you referring to ongoing games in the way you are doing, if there's only the one completed game? Can you at least try and keep discussion limited to finished games and this game? I can't properly engage with the way you're presenting your argument at the minute.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Yeah, go for it. I'm not your boss.In post 207, Noraa wrote:So many really's but I legit feel strongly about this and nothing'll change that besides a green flip in which case I will be absolutely bamboozled.
(This is partially why I don't like meta being argued in thread honestly, I'm not saying it's not effective, it is, but when you talk about it all comes down to vibes, you can't really debate it.)
My view on Hertas scumclaim is that I get why in the moment you could treat is as serious, I have seen players dip out p much immediately like that by claiming scum before. In retrospect it's a joke, but I think it opens up questions about why you would joke that way in that situation. But, Herta is (seems to be) a new (new to this site?) player, so unconventional responses are to be expected. In terms of mindset, I think defensive humour like that is a scumtell, but I don't think it's damning. I thought the seal post was evidently more of a concession than the double down on "hey whatever" than what it seems to be have been intended as. That said I think having a mindset that your own lynch is something that is the natural state of things, like Herta seems to have, is a scumtell generally. I think this wagon is building a little opportunistically but it's not one I hate without Herta giving me a reason to unvote I can believe in.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Sorry, I was busy all yesterday so I need to reengage.
Redcardinal reading Shelly and Noraa as scum in #222 together feels a little contrarian.
Noraa #248. Very eh on this vote. I think red's being weird but not sure about scummy.
I don't buy Noraa as scum generally. Would a scum spend the early bit of the day hard pushing a niche meta case? I'd say a hard no in singleball when they know it to be incorrect, maybe in multiball it's more likely?
Reasonable post from Titus in #275.
I don't see how this is helpful at all. Not a counterwagon generally, Ico specifically.In post 297, Titus wrote:I want a counter to this wagon.
Yeah. There's little talk about how the wagon is wrong, just that it's undeserved.In post 304, iamausername wrote:Herta giving off major "you caught me for the wrong reasons" vibes here.
Echo's behaviour with the wagon switch is odd but I'm not sure it's scummy. He was on a safe wagon that he could have just sat on, people were starting to join, what's the scum motivation for switching at that point? Just towncred signalling? IDK, why couldn't he do that from the ICO wagon? I would very much like Echo to stop lurkerchasing though. The whole behaviour is a little scummy because it's a shield for nonengagement.
Rannygazoo is still scummy.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Yeah, the wagons today have been interesting. It's kind of back to normal now but it was notably slow in doing so.In post 387, Titus wrote:I just feel this is town pushing on town. I don't see anyone trying to defend Herta. I'll hammer to get the game going, I just think scum are coasting here.
NPOM is pretty tiresome.
Herta is scummier than ranny. I like the ranny wagon though.
Town vibes from EV.
RC went weird for a bit then recovered.
Shelly may actually be scum, I'm more open to that idea now.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Nah I like it.In post 485, Rannygazoo wrote:I’m waiting for someone else to comment on Titus’s posting, because his lowkey trolling is clearly anti-town, but town is not going to hear it from me, it seems.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Just generally to answer both your questions, it's about execution, and I think it's interesting that you're looking at it that way.
You think titus did a scummy thing that she's not getting enough stick for? Implicit in this course of argument, aligning it with your action like you are doing, you are acknowledging that you did a scummy thing, correct?-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Not what she's saying there.In post 491, Rannygazoo wrote:It probably has something to do with redcardinal’s policy of deciding which slots to scumread and then picking reasons later as he explained to me in 463
And the aligning the actions thing was about the fact that if you think you and titus did the same thing then surely you, as town, would consider that post a towntell from titus, but instead you seem to be scumreading her a bit.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Nah. It's about inviting an attack vs shielding vs an attack. Titus was inviting an attack, imho, which isn't scummy.In post 497, Rannygazoo wrote:
Am I to read this as “it’s actually a good thing that ranny is the object of titus’s trolling, because of my SR on ranny”?In post 490, Primate wrote:Just generally to answer both your questions, it's about execution, and I think it's interesting that you're looking at it that way.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Radiantcowbells literally drove one of my closest friends off the site, fuck that guy. (I associate RC more with reapercharlie actually, but that's just as bad).In post 510, Rannygazoo wrote:RadiantCowbells wrote this topic on how to be toxic to win at mafia viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84099 and I’ve been thinking about it lately
(I’m not accusing anyone here of being toxic)
I'll stop using that acronym, yeah, it's obviously cursed.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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I'm here.
I think murdercats introduction to the game has been good and is fairly townie.
I don't think NPOM is scummy, just unhelpful. I think expecting him to be cleared via role based stuff is too hopeful.
Shelly replacing out is annoying. I don't think it's NAI but I'm going to treat it as if it is for meta reasons. ItalianoVD's introduction to the game is null.
Iconeum's intro posts are scummy but it's kind of a shit situation where it's kind of always going to seem that way.
I still think Herta is scummy and I don't understand townreads there.
When I first started rereading I was getting scumvibes from redcardinal but I don't have them anymore, actually her content is fine.
IAMAU is giving off good player vibes and I have a massive null on that slot.
You're wrong about me, but I think this is the right idea. I'm not saying anything the protown players or anything, but scumhunting isn't necessarily the tell it would be in other games, I think you need to be looking for other things.In post 922, ItalianoVD wrote:I think Primate might be an anti-town role playing in a pro town way, which is why everyone seems to be vibing with him. As a matter of fact if I had to guess I’d say there are multiple anti-town roles posing as pro town right now.
Ranny's claim isn't great. I don't think you claim fruit vendor d1 unless you are one, but that doesn't mean much. I think the lack of knowledge about multitasking is probably sincere and means that if they're scum there's probably another mafia out there.
I think Ranny flipping scum is good for Titus, honestly. That said, I don't really get why Titus's read on Ranny changed. But I don't get why titus as scum with ranny would change the wagon there, and I don't get why Titus as scum not with ranny would give up on it there. The obvious read here is that she genuinely thinks Shelly is scum and that's the reason to switch, and I think that shows pro-town motive.
Yes.In post 958, MURDERCAT wrote:
This seems like a town claim to me considering there is no pressure on plusIn post 917, PlusJOYED wrote:yall are gonna get a low effort joyed this game, sorry
I looked through the list and I saw that there wasn't a mafia/antitown king, all i saw was a 1shot kingmaker. So I'm gonna be upfront so if we have a king they don't kill themselves: this game I rolled hero.
Probably gonna be more like a vt but whatever.
Unvote
I think Ranny is a fine enough vote today. He's probably my top scumread too.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Yeah, that's the nature of catchup posts. I'm not going to try and pull some contrarian take or case out my ass just to build towncred when I don't think the current elim targets are town.In post 990, Iconeum wrote:That's an awfully big post to not make much conclusions in, Primate
A rep out isn't NAI but you'll regard it as such nontheless because META?
Generic statement about Herta
'Redcardinal was scummy but isn't anymore'
'IAAUN good vibes' into a null read?
What about the vendor claim do you consider bad? You said it yourself, it's a proveable action so the claim is probably legit.
You came to that conclusion. So why do you jump to a scumread on someone who claimed their role while they were on L-1 (not actually, but they believed they were which is what counts)
If replacing out can be a towntell that encourages players to replace out of games. You need to treat it as NAI to stop players being rewarded for dropping out of games. You can use it to factor in your internal decisions obviously but it shouldn't be mentioned in thread.
'IAAUN good vibes' is straight up misreading from you here. I said "good player" vibes. As in "he is a good player", and its harder to get reads out of him. I don't know who is considered a good player now, but it's like how a scumtell from, say, glork, is worth a lot more than a scumtell from, say, vyper. Username is clearly a decent player, so whilst I would normally townread the posts he's making, in this context, I'm going to treat those townreads as less valuable.
My Redcardinal read specifically is a bit off and I need to do better there, I currently lean town on that slot, but I've gone back and forth a few times and could do with actually having confidence in my read there.
The fruit vendor claim is mediocre because it's a scum role. It doesn't mean anything. It's provable, yes, but if they do prove it all we know is that he now has a 50% chance of being scum.
And it's misrep to say I'm jumping to a scumread on Ranny. I've had a scumread on ranny since the beginning of the day and have mentioned it since. I've not been posting much and through most the day I've preferred the Herta elim so I'm not going to say I've been key on his wagon or anything but it's absolutely not out of nowhere.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Same, but like, uhhhh, no way.In post 1052, MURDERCAT wrote:I'll wait just because I will feel really dumb if I flip an IC and there is basically no cost to waiting-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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I think this is wrong.In post 1061, Noraa wrote:And how am I "obviously town"?
I remember ur past reads did not by any means reflect that
Alsohuh.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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It's come up like twice irl in around 150 games.In post 1070, MURDERCAT wrote:
I am a little sad about thisIn post 1041, MURDERCAT wrote:Also, please have there be a compulsive child killer if this is real that would actually be amazingbut the possibility!-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Yeah, sure.In post 1074, MURDERCAT wrote:
Flash wagon, go, now, do itIn post 1068, MURDERCAT wrote:Everyone come wagon username with me, even if we don't flip let's at least pressure there
VOTE: Vote iamausername-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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We generally play in smaller games and it happens day 2. It generally clears a couple of people, not like actually clear, but people who seem to have really good claims. I pretty much always play with similar people so meta comes in a lot as well. It's all irl, so it's that whole in the moment claim thing. I think I'm maybe a bit biased due to the short length of games.In post 1137, MURDERCAT wrote:Also, this is specifically towards Primate because he seems to have a lot of setup knowledge, but curious to hear input from others as well. When is it good to just massclaim? I'm thinking that there might be some gains D2 as it would force scum to fake claim early and there's no guarantee that town actually has any useful roles.
Counterclaims are pretty rare, I wouldn't expect them. If you get something busted like bloodhound that's a shame they have to claim early but c'est la vie. I think D2 is a reasonable time to start talking about it depending on how many kills there are.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Sorry, I'm drunk so take this post with a grain of salt, I'll have to address properly tomorrow morning.
I mostly voted IAMAU to see what would happen, frankly.
ItalianoVD is a maybe but feels like such a compromise candidate.
Titus has fucking ghosted, what the hell is up with that.
Iconeum is a wasterman.
I'd compromise to Herta based on earlier reads but he's been alright recently and his wagon indecision was neat.
I don't rate the redcardinal wagon.
IAMAU seems the correct elim right now, imho.
(no elim is probably reasonable but you didn't hear it from me)-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Nah, not the same at all.In post 1308, Rannygazoo wrote:I don’t understand the shade on italiano because he hasn’t been acting any different from joyed.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Yeah, this was rude and I apologise.In post 1324, Titus wrote:
I have been here. Fuck you you likely scumfuck. If sober Titus agrees, we will come after you.In post 1307, Primate wrote:Titus has fucking ghosted, what the hell is up with that.
I meant just that you didn't seem as driving recently, which felt weird to me as I thought you were fairly on it. What I said was a huge exagerration.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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My off the cuff guess would be that the two scumteams aren't shooting the obvious target to avoid crosskills.In post 1386, MURDERCAT wrote:ok so I'm bad. Noraa that was the sickest soul read I've ever seen.
Lol at the IC living. 2 scum teams? Or maybe 1 SK? Or maybe a vig?
I'm kind of wrapping myself in knots debating what means anything in this game wrt to the way the ialiano wagon went yesterday.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Nah, there's probably another maf. The aliens only get one kill all game and you kind of assume they wouldn't use it N1. So if you're looking at two killing scum you have mafia/werewolf/sk. And a second mafia is more likely than an SK. It's not certain but that'd be my guess.
This is wrong but no issues with this read.In post 1394, iamausername wrote:VOTE: Primate
i think he is mafia, specifically. of all the people voting for me, he stuck out as someone who didn't actually believe that i was scum. 1307 is incredibly wishy-washy on Italiano when that wagon was just starting to develop, and it feels to me like he just didn't know how to react to a last minute attempt to off his scumbuddy who had seemed 100% safe the day before deadline.
Think these are pretty ridiculous though. I purposefully phrased 989 and 993 in a way that meant I wasn't confirming whether I thought it was a towntell or not. And I mentioned Titus specifically because the idea of someone vigging Noraa after that D1 is ridiculous. This comment about the Titus vigging is just you throwing some shit at the wall, it's not a coherent point.his comments on shelly's replacement in 989 and 993 seemed weird at the time, but in light of the flip, they look really bad to me. if Primate really believes that shelly replacing out was a towntell that shouldn't be mentioned in thread for game integrity reasons,why is he mentioning it in the thread? it comes across as "hey, you guys should totally think that slot is town for this, but you didn't hear it from me *wink*".
also, just now, there was this:
why talk about Titus specifically as the vig target? is it because you know Noraa was a scum kill?Primate wrote:I don't think Titus was vigged but w/eva.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Ok, this is where I am right now.
Killing mafia is optimal, for both the town and all other scum factions. The other scum probably don't care too much about eliminating the correct person, which is why you might get quick wagons, in abstract. This makes it awkward to read alignments of people on the wagon generally, as the other scum also want to kill mafia, but it's balanced by the fact by the fact that the scum don't care about hitting town. So the distinguishing factor is how much people actually care about hitting town, today.
It can't be redcardinal, makes no sense, and it's unlikely to be herta, I think. Murdercat is playing well but he's not in the right place on the wagons to make it unlikely he's mafia. Echo is in a similar boat, but was in a better position on the wagon.
I think there are good reasons to think it's plusjoy.
#364-366,#370.#964 from shelly/italiano are odd interactions,
#1274 from plusjoy.
I do agree with this. Not so much that NPOM requires more pressure (beacause I don't really know what that would achieve) but more that this is quick.In post 1520, iamausername wrote:i know that much the same can be said of plusJOYED, but it feels extremely off to me how easily that wagon got to E-1 compared to the resistance there has been to any attempt to put pressure on NPOM throughout the game. like, both of them are openly not giving a shit about the game, so why is it that only one of them is being called out for it by anyone besides the confirmed town player?
My concern is that if we go Plusjoy today based on mafia associations and we're wrong we've basically spent the day chasing a false lead. I think we could stand to do a bit more general reads about scumminess and odd behaviour, possibly even ignoring the mafia connection aspect, then bring that back in later.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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ItalianoVD (7) -Noraa, redcardinal,Titus, EchoVision, Herta,Rannygazoo, MURDERCAT
iamausername (3) - Primate, PlusJOYED,ItalianoVD
Herta (2) - iamausername, NoPowerOverMe
PlusJOYED (1) - Iconeum
Not voting (0)
This may seem an ass backwards way to look at it, but if you look at through the perspective of leading a last minute elimination on someone who could be town, what comes up?
Redcardinal comes across as someone who is willing to take a major personal risk, as one of the leading wagons at the time, to lead a new wagon against someone new, which is townie. They could have done nothing and hoped the username wagon came through. Town points.
Echovision is a bit of a wagon switcher generally but this is positive in terms of town points.
Herta's past the point of it being relevant, at that point they were under a little pressure to vote and the redcardinal wagon they were on previously was done so I don't think this vote means much.
Murdercat explictly votes to ensure an elim, this is mainly null.
Plusjoy, Iconeum, username weren't really around during the wagon and were sitting on earlier votes. NPOM's #1339 could be read as a tell but honestly it's the same kind of literal reading of thing's he's been doing.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Ya.In post 1632, MURDERCAT wrote:Red could have been Mason alone correct?
Very strongly tempted to claim, but lets do it as part of a massclaim.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Primate Mafia Scum
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I'd like a specific claim from username if it's not actually VT but one of the functional VTs but yeah it'd be nice to get confirmation of that.In post 1640, MURDERCAT wrote:I'll just say I want to go after username that's my only request-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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Alright then.
Few Caveats. I absolutely want the town to win, it's much more interesting that way.
Secondly, I have always tried to legitimately scumhunt, I have been possibly lazy, but never not sincere.
Thirdly, I say to scumgroups I will not support you if you try to force a win.
I claim Survivor.
I claim this because it's honestly what I am and frankly I think we've reached the point where the town will lose if you eliminate me.
Next in popcorn is Iconeum, for me.-
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Primate Mafia Scum
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It's complicated but it's honest.In post 1646, MURDERCAT wrote:Ugh what an annoying claim
I give you my word if you're town I'm not the reason you're going to lose this game, if you lose this game.-
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I think it would be a misplay from the scums if they aren't aiming for crosskills N3.In post 1649, EchoVision wrote:lets hope cross kills pop up n3 then-
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I get what echovision is saying but I think it's they should probably claim. It's just less risky if it backfires tomorrow when they claim something not that impressive.
I think herta's claim targets are weird. My concern is that we sped through yesterday, with a default lynch, and now Herta seems pushed. IDK.
Murdercat's claim specifically is great for Username and NPOM. It does set up a potential NPOM-Murdercat pair, but hey. Murdercat is probably town after he counterclaimed before the mod confirmed that there could be the same role rolled multiple times though.
Now I mostly want to see why Herta targeted Redcardinal.-
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