Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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WOW. First off let's just nip this whole claim thing in the bud. Llama has been misquoting repeatedly - GW is right, Gob quote Cleveland twice and then said that "#2 being Cleveland was a coincidence". Almost every time since he said that people have misquoted him. The #2 (i.e. quote number two) is the most important part of the sentence. If I say "What the deuce?!" twice does that make me Stewie? Preposterous.
But I digress...
I can't see why people are liking Llama so much so far. Ignoring the claim for the meantime, because it is a null tell (bastard moddery seems to be in effect in most theme games that I've been in).
Llama's (non?)vote has been moving around like a weathervane, and as we all know wishy-washiness is a big scumtell.
1) Gob (for thinking of character claiming - this after ONE Cleveland quote I might add, and right before he full claims his role)
2) Xtoxm (let's face it, this is pretty OMGUS, although I'm not sure I like Xtoxmm that much myself)
3) Ghostwriter (post 100... trying to make sense of this... go and look back, I guarantee headache)
4) unvotes a couple of posts later (post 104, but who's counting?)
5) Back on goborage (basically because goborage was afk I think)
This is just so ridiculous. Even if I was Cleveland, how would saying "I'm Cleveland" be fullclaiming?! The amount of quotes flying around on Day 1 (evil monkey, anybody?) and you choose a Cleveland quote and then back it up with a misquote later on. You're trying to justify it with some irrelevent reasoning that makes you seem pro-town. I don't buy into Xtoxm's argument that we should lynch you because your ability is bad, but I still think you're a good play, because you're incredibly scummy.LlamaFluff wrote:
I know I did. That was intentional for the reason of character claiming being bad. Was I 100% beyond a doubt sure that gobo had just fullclaimed? No of course not. The thing was he was being very careless with his role if he is Cleveland, and could of been trying to instigate a mass character claim. In this setup I view character claim as a bad thing, so I wanted to shut it down before it even started to begin. I dont understand why that is a bad thing to try and do.GhostWriter wrote: It was you who first started pointing at him about a claim, no one else did until after you set it up to look that way, and THAT is why I have a FoS on you.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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Not to mention that he's been distracting the town with a pages long debate about whether Goborage claimed or not, when anyone who actually re-read saw that it was pretty clear.
I should probably have reassigned my vote in my last post, but hey
unvote vote llamaThe quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!
People, you need to wake up and smell the coffee! The deceit with which LF acted in relation to Goborage's clearly innocent (and fun, given that this is a theme game based on a C O M E D Y show) quoting is not town. There is never any reason to be deceitful if you're town. I'd also like to point out that he ignored half my post.
I'd just like to clear something up - LF is voting for me because I am voting for him, plain and simple. There was NO "claim thing". LF made it up out of pure thin air.
I'd also like to state my suspicions on daltFoS dalt. However, things obviously might change once he starts chiming in again.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."LlamaFluff wrote:I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.
The only reason (aside from just doing something that is incorrect, I should point out for fairness' sale) to do something scummy consistently is so that you can point out the meta when you are in fact scum or when people call you out on it. Therefore it's consistently bad for everyone except yourself (and your mafia members if you're mafia). Wishy-washiness is a scum-tell. You can't get around it by saying that you always do it. That doesn't make it ok, or right.
Everything you've done so far has led to distraction of the town, for many pages. The goborage thing wasted the town's time for so long and was made up out of thin air.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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I like your cases on BG, and I must admit I was quite surprised when she gave in over my LF case straight away given that she said it was obvious an LF lynch wasn't going to happen.
Also, it is strange how Xtoxm and BG have both been on the LF wagon at some point. But I don't see why it is in the scum's interests to lynch LF if he is town. He can only help their cause while alive (distracting the town AND a novoter - perfect choice to unwittingly help the scum).
I don't agree with your buddying thing either... just because two people interact a lot it doesn't mean they are scum partners. If that were true I'd be voting for one of you two right now.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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Well I'll be shocked if they survive the night. On the other hand, of course, it's pretty common for lovers to be one scum one town. So that's worth bearing in mind.
LF - I'll get onto the rest of your points at some point soon, but you must realise that as it's the summer some of us are quite busy. I've already made some big posts, so it's hardly like I'm neglecting the game or something.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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No, I'm serious, I wasn't getting at you. If you're going to try and convince me to lynch someone, you'll actually need to cite a few reasons. Other than drawing out the lovers (which admittedly is not optimal) I don't see that he has really done anything overly wrong.Xtoxm wrote:Bite me.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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I like the post, and clearly some good thoughts here.
But whatever happens, we aren't lynching claimed lovers on Day 1. More likely we'll find out on Day 2 whether they're telling the truth one way or they other.
I find mafia siblings pretty unlikely in a game of this size, but, I admit, plausible.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners nowSave the Dragons wrote:reborn
Fishing?reborn537 wrote:Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!Yes. The reason I have been so careful about claiming Cleveland or not is because I believe LF is TRYING to ascertain whether I am Cleveland or not (despite his rigorous statements to the contrary), and as previously stated a character claim only helps the scum. Whether LF is scum or not, the real scum would definitely want me to claim, which is why I've been so careful.
You can't just say something's a scumtell.reborn537 wrote:
This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."LlamaFluff wrote:I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.Yes, you can. Go check the wiki
1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.WIFOM
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.Doesn't mean they always do, as with scum
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.WIFOM Also you underestimate the amount of slips people tend to make. Like the amount of WIFOM reasoning you're using now to protect LF
The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.So the lynch is randomly determined every day then, with no other contributing factors?
I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).No. Even though his vote doesn't count, it still holds sway with the town. Because he has everyones attention, he has to be careful where he puts his vote. With great power comes great responsibility.FoS StDThe quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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elvis - you'd be right if he'd given a case and then voted for me and then I'd voted for him.
BUT he didn't. He just dismissed my argument with poor points and then voted for me without cause. That is without question scummy, surely? And furthermore I only did FoS.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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Right. my stuff is in bold again.Save The Dragons wrote:
I think a lot of people have come to the consensus that this is a null tell and whether or not you are Cleveland doesn't really matter.reborn537 wrote:Yes. The reason I have been so careful about claiming Cleveland or not is because I believe LF is TRYING to ascertain whether I am Cleveland or not (despite his rigorous statements to the contrary), and as previously stated a character claim only helps the scum. Whether LF is scum or not, the real scum would definitely want me to claim, which is why I've been so careful.
But I'd like to point out that not only am I fallible, but I also did most of my read from 2:00 am to 5:00 am in the morning, and may not have been fully awake.Doesn't excuse the fact that you're STILL voting for me, and STILL haven't presented a case on me.
If you want to follow the Wiki 100%, then you should check my join date and tell us which one of us would know more about scum tells.The Wiki wrote:As Mafia players grow in experience, they will typically expand their knowledge of what constitutes scumtell.Yeah, I'm really intimidated by the fact that you have been on the forums for 4 years and still appear to have learned nothing. Also, I'm pretty sure I've played more mafia than you.
Oh. I guess the wiki's on my side. One down...The Wiki wrote:A type of voting which can be a scum tell; when a player votes and then unvotes a particular player repeatedly during a Day, or switches their votes to several different players over the course of the Day, it may be because they are scum trying to find a good place to land their vote on an ProTown player without attracting too much suspicion.
On the other hand, it is hard to use this tell reliably, as some players simply move their vote around a lot, no matter what their Alignment or Role.Oh, right, I see what you've done. You've read my argument on LF, decided that it hinges on the "wishy-washiness" and then tried to convince everyone else that it does. Still no case on me.
Not quite. See below.STD and Reborn wrote: 1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.WIFOM
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.Doesn't mean they always do, as with scum
Doesn't mean you should policy lynch players who give scum tells.STD and Reborn wrote:3. I think people play how they're gonna play.Doesn't mean it's the right thing to doOh, I see, so now we're not lynching people who are scummy? No, I agree, maybe not always, as there could be a better candidate. In this instance, I believe LF is the best candidate for the lnych. Hence why my vote is squarely on him!!
First of all, I'm not protecting LF, and if you think I am, please point out where I am so I can either be corrected or prove you wrong.STD and Reborn wrote:4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.WIFOM Also you underestimate the amount of slips people tend to make. Like the amount of WIFOM reasoning you're using now to protect LFWell, here's the thing. Your large posts directed towards me have focussed on on poking holes in my argument on LF, without actually presenting a case on me. Which would be fine, except that you're voting for me.
Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"
I'm saying it because it's bloody obvious that if someone where scum, they're not going to do the things that act like it. Notice I'm not going to say they're acting like town. Now that would be a WIFOM,if it were contained in an argument by a scum describing how said scum is being protown.Go give that wiki another look through.That's as maybe, but you're using arguments which lead to WIFOM, which is just as bad. Not all scum are superhuman. Scum won't always get everything right. Sometimes they take a chance, do something risky, and it all goes wrong. If the scum NEVER made slips or dropped scumtells then the game would be pretty difficult for the town.
Selective reading? That explains why the wiki doesn't agree with youSTD and Reborn wrote:The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.So the lynch is randomly determined every day then, with no other contributing factors?If we're bandying around wiki catch phrases then maybe I should mention that you've tunnel-visioned on me.
No. You see, some scumtells don't transcend games. They're relevant to the game at hand, and they represent things that shouldn't occur in the game. Not every wishywashy player, not every awkward post, not every lurker, and not every misuse of logic makes the person scum. It's up to the players to figure out in the game which of the "scumtells" are legit and which are not. I don't think you've done that.I disagree. I made a very considered read and re-read before I presented my argument on LF. I thought very carefully about whether I was going to go for dalt or LF, my two top candidates, and I decided that there was definitely much more on LF that made him scummy
You, my friend, have decided that wishy-washyness is a scumtell, and have decided that every single situation is appropriate for wishy-washyness to be a scumtell. You have not decided to actually think for yourself and ask yourself if this is appropriate to our situation at hand. THIS IS WRONG. You cannot just say that something is a scum tell and expect it to be a scum tell in every single game.You need to go and re-read my argument, and realise that it wasn't just one line "LOL LF = wishy-washy LET'S VOTE LOL"
So you've decided to go on a smear campaign and attack LF because you think you've caught a scumtell. That is incredibly scummy. You've decided that you're going to ignore logic and reasoning and not look at what LF's votes actually mean (I mean, you posted them, but I don't think you really, truly looked at them, nor did you seem to care after LF explained them).
At this point, I'm just actually saying that if I did:STD and reborn wrote:I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).No. Even though his vote doesn't count, it still holds sway with the town. Because he has everyones attention, he has to be careful where he puts his vote. With great power comes great responsibility.
Unvote Vote: RestFermata
Unvote Vote: Llama Fluff
Unvote Vote: Babygirl
Unvote Vote: Reborn
Then I'm doing a lot more harm than he is.OK, but you're wrong. You've just one absolutely nothing. And in the case that you reassigned your vote for real, it may be worse, but only in a technical sense. And that still doesn't make LF right or correct, just because what he did is less bad than something you're hypothetically suggesting.
I'm also saying that the wishy washy "scumtell" that you oh so love doesn't really apply in this situation, because his vote doesn't count (allegedly), so I don't see why he's being scummy, when he could accomplish the same thing if he said:To be honest, I don't think it's me who loves the scumtell, I think it's you! You've zeroed in on it like a sniper onto a friendly soldier. Just because he can't vote, it doesn't mean he can't make arguments, and so, especially on day 1, he can still control the voting. When someone votes (yes, even if it doesn't count), people want to know why, and if they should follow his vote. On Day 1, it's basically irrelevent whether he can vote or not. I'm pretty sure the town is just going to decide on someone to lynch at some point, I don't believe it'll be a split camp.
Unpizza, Pizza: Kmd
Unpizza, Pizza: KloudThe quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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Thinktank, I happen to think the case on you is utterly weak to the point of ridiculousness. If BG hadn't claimed lovers with Xtoxm my vote would be on her right now because of her opportunistic waggoning onto you.
For now,unvote
IG, please explain to me if you were serious about thinktank or if this was some kind of elaborate ruse/gambit?The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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I wasn't calling it that, I was asking if it was.elvis_knits wrote:And reborn... why are you calling IG's vote "an elaborate ruse/gambit"? What do you think the elaborate ruse/gambit could be?
In this case the gambit would be making an incredibly weak case on someone and then seeing if anyone waggoned onto the weak case. For example, as BG did. It's something I encountered in a recent game. The object of such a gambit would be to catch out opportunistic people looking for an easy wagon.
Like I said, if BG hadn't claimed lovers I'd be going for her now because of the waggoning onto TT.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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You still haven't made a case on me.LlamaFluff wrote:
Fair enoughXtoxm wrote:Llama - If you are town, could you please stop using your "vote". It's just confusing. Could you instead use an FOS in place of your vote or something?unvote.
Im fine with the IG lynch, although I think a reborn lynch nets a better chance at catching scum.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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The pizza thing wasn't about me. It was directed at me, but in reference to LF.elvis_knits wrote:STD, could you repeat or summarize (or point me to appropriate post) your pizza case on reborn? I remember reading your summary post and catching some stuff on reborn, but not really understanding why he was your number 1.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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reborn537 Mafia Scum
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"Everything gobo did". I want examples of what my predecessor did to earn your ire.LlamaFluff wrote:reborn537 wrote:You still haven't made a case on me.
I think we still can get this wagon off in time peoplemy case in post 379 wrote:I still like reborn more then any other wagon right now. Even if I lay aside everything that gobo did (well there isn’t much to lay aside) he looks pretty scummy. When he entered he immediately went after me, arguably OMGUS style since my vote was on gobo for having voted four times within three people. I have explained all of my votes and why I placed them already, but he still has not answered with an explanation of why any of my votes were scummy, just says that voting that much is wishy-washy and a scum tell.
Later reborn decides to call my vote of him (which was present when he replaced in) OMGUS. This is using false evidence to try and further a lynch of me. Also he is discounting my entire push at gobo for the “claim” thing as made up. While it is obvious that in gobos first and second post he does put out Cleveland quotes.
Following up with my push to get why my votes are scummy, reborn decides it is best to ignore my explanation of votes, and just say that I am metaing myself. There was no attempt here to explain which of my votes made me scum.
The whole dragon conflict more pisses me off than anything else. You guys really need to just break it into quotes and respond that way, it really isn’t too hard to do and helps me read it accurately. Your religion to the wiki here kind of bugs me though. It seems you read that wishy-washy voting is something scum always does, you might of seen it in a game once, so you are taking it as a universal constant. This does not make me mafia though, and it seems to be the main thing you are voting me because of.
The rest of this seems to be you yelling at dragon for poking holes in your case against me. If your case holds that little water, chances are its really weak. That honestly is one of my reasons for thinking you are scum right now. You come in an post a case that hinges half on my votes which you STILL have yet to explain which are scummy and anti-town and half on the claim thing which is my views on the game and is pretty indefensible.
The unwillingness to explain what makes my votes scummy and your misrepresenting me is enough to keep my vote right where it is, and should be enough to be attracting other votes.
OMGUS? Utterly ridiculous saying that to me considering how hard you went after me when I dared to make a case on you.
I HAVE explained why your wishy-washy votes are anti-town. Every time you vote you are distracting the town with your poorly considered arguments. I haven't seen one good wagon started by you yet. You went after Gob because of his "claim of Cleveland" which was a direct deception by you. I'm glad that's been put to bed now, by the way.
I did not use false evidence to call your vote on me OMGUS. Your vote was on goborage because of the so-called claim thing, and after that had been destroyed you had no reason to have your vote on me. Therefore, my only logical conclusion was that you were voting for me because I went for you. I was not going for you for that reason, I read through twice before I made my first posts and everything I did was carefully considered. I decided my top suspects were yourself and dalt.
You were metaing yourself. And I explained about it. And people agreed.
The whole dragon conflict pisses you off more than anything else... wow. Dude, you've just admitted that the main reason you're voting for me is that I didn't format my post in your preferred way. Well, I'm sorry, but I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to STD, and it's a tried and tested method of responding to large posts. This isn't even a point against me, it's something you don't like about the way I use the internet. Unless you think I used a deliberately poor format to confuse and distract the town?
I was not yelling at STD. I was answering his points with my own opinions. Just stop hazing the town, seriously, because people read what you write, and if you're town please stop as you're doing more harm than good.
And, once again, I did explain. Just because you disagree that doesn't make me scum.
Hope this satisfies you.
Anyway, on with the game. IG, shockingly enough I am not going to counter-claim Cleveland. I am going tounvotethough.
I also think it's pertinent to point out that if we go down this road then we'll just go all around the town putting people at L-1 and then having them claim a power role. It's happened in another game I was in and people realised what was happening and decided to lynch one of the claimed power-roles (me as cop). So let's be very careful about how we go about things from now on.unvoteThe quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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Heh, I unvoted twice. Hope they don't cancel each other out.
Xtoxm - my last point is particularly relevent to the LF situation. If, as I think will happen, everyone starts claiming power roles left right and centre then I'm sure LF will come under more scrutiny.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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As you say, I've answered your post, and no problem.Save The Dragons wrote:
And thisSave The Dragons wrote:reborn
Fishing?reborn537 wrote:Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!
You can't just say something's a scumtell.reborn537 wrote:
This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."LlamaFluff wrote:I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.
1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.
The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.
I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).
And he posted a response that I do not think I responded to (because he put his response in a quote, and I missed it). One hour, when I have time, I'll look back on it and make sure I understand what he said and respond to it. Sorry for the long overdue post, Reborn. I promise I'll get it in before I leave.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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STD don't worry about offending me in mafia... the whole point of this is that we are arguing, and I'm not going to hold back so I certainly wouldn't wish anyone else to.
I'll answer your case in the morning, although once again it seems to be a case whereby you say that I'm scum for going for LF.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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No. It's good for people to list their top suspects. At the moment LF and STD have tunnel-visioned onto me so they've effectively stopped scum-hunting. I'm trying to get them back on track while not immediately continuing the argument.Kmd4390 wrote:
What is the purpose in this? If you are town, asking the town to make connections involving you is a pointless distraction.reborn537 wrote:STD, something to ponder while I sleep - if I am scum, who are my scum partners?The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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Seeing as we're so close to the deadline, and I consider myself to have a pretty important power role, I'm going to roleclaim
Stewie: inventor
I make up the names of my inventions at night and Farside interpretes how they would work. I was considering using the classic Death Ray tonight, for example.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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I haven't placed it, because if I vote for who I want to vote for I'll be done in for OMGUS. Seeing as STD and LF have formed a power block I don't think I'm going to be able to convince anyone about them until we have some night info on the table. I wonder what an alignment-scanning invention would be called... The Scanatron? The Evil Detector 5000? The Guilterminator?GhostWriter wrote:Turn your vote from where, might I ask? ecause I do not seem to remember you placing it.
I'm waiting for someone to do something scummy, like BG did, then I'll assign my vote. If she hadn't claimed lovers with Xtoxm I think the day would be over by now.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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I would like to lynch a scum though, which is why I request an argument.Xtoxm wrote:I've said why I think she's scum.
And it's almost scummy you saying that as a reason for not wanting to vote her. If you're a townie anyone is better than you for a lynch.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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QFTthinktank wrote:The proper play is to wait for day 2 to lynch either of them. Now is not the time.
vote: Llama
What a bad time to make a terrible idea.
vote llama
Also, it's standard mod practice to leave the lovers unconfirmed to each other. But it's in both their interests to stay alive, so they might lie about this. But TT is correct, day 2 before we act on the lovers.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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There's another way we can confirm IG. I fully expect the scum to go for me in the night, so IG should obviously try and protect me. Seeing as he's claimed he should try to be as useful as possible before he dies. Same with me. I might hold back on Death Raying you now, LF - I was planning on doing that because it didn't seem like we were going to lynch you. Now you've claimed, I don't think I will do either.
But please explain why you feel JOAT fits with Peter? I think I have an idea, but I want to know if you think the same without telling you what my idea is.The quick-hammer is no longer scummy. I'm taking it back.-
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