Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[Ectomancer]

/confirm

[Ectomancer]

vote Rhinox

because we have

Meer

Cats around and dogs make no distinction.

[Ectomancer]

Wow. I missed the whole second page. The question here is who is trying to be the VoA with all this experience talk.

Hello everyone, it seems like im the most experienced player here.

guess again Captian Wisdom.

---
also, I have seen people self vote many times. I have seen experience players, newbies, scum, town, lurkers, and flakers all self vote. Now it is pointless, but really just a null tell, unless they leave their self vote on for a long period of time. No one here will be lynched on a self vote alone, so relax..that being said, self voting is not helpful..and if you are really willing to scum hunt, I suggest you actually start, and remove all self votes

(The answer, of course, is me)


Good chat about the self vote CKDog.

[Ectomancer]

@Rhinox - I saw that Like I said, I missed the 2nd page

@StrangerCoug - VoA - Voice of Authority, playing off of Appeal to Authority. I was giving muffinhead crap for thinking he had the most experience on site (as if that mattered) and was seeming to try to enhance his status by pointing it out (which turns out to be wrong by a long shot)

That's a good enough reason to

fos muffinhead

Also @StrangerCoug - why on earth would you want people to start jumping off of wagons before it produces any kind of results? What do you think wagons are for? Especially in the random stage? If you dont have anything to go on, you just grab someone out of the crowd by the neck and say "start talking or Im gonna smash you!", enough people gather around and says 'Yeah!" and they start talking. If you like what they say, you let'em go, if you don't, you throw'em against the fence with some other suspects that you get roughly the same way, then lynch one of them.

Just because you grabbed yourself around the neck doesn't mean you weren't a good choice. I saw that trick in Blazing Saddles. The Sheriff was gonna get lynched until he grabbed himself by his own collar, put his own gun to his head and threatened to blow his own head off if everyone didn't back off. Well, the town backed off and the Sheriff didn't get lynched.
That's basically what you did isn't it StrangerCoug? The town always seems to let the self-voter go. Not me. I think you belong against the fence whilst we figure out who gets the rope today.

vote StrangerCoug

[Ectomancer]

StrangerCoug deserves votes piled on him for that self-vote. It's not helpful and this pressure might make him think twice before doing it again. He's not going to get quicklynched by town, and if scum piles on, Huzzah! We got one or two for tomorrow...
I still say we string him up. Somebody's gotta die today, we might as well do the volunteer

[Ectomancer]

Well, ClockworkRuse, I certainly didn't want a good part of the town at my throat, that's for sure. I did, however, want a gauge as to how many people and which ones had the WIFOMish thinking of "only scum would vote themselves". Right now Ectomancer fits this state of mind best, and my voting Rhinox is for putting me at an opportunistic L-3 based on Ectomancer's reasoning.

I find it very interesting that Ectomancer doesn't care about scum jumping on my wagon or my getting lynched for the sole reasons of my self-vote and "

omebody's gotta die today". I do intend a vote switch if I don't get a believable defense for this; however, I don't want to clear Rhinox of my suspicion just yet.

Well now this argument is flat out wrong. It is StrangerCoug's stance that seems to imply that only a townie would vote for themselves, thereby creating a WIFOM situation for some sap to fall into.
It is

my

assertion that StrangerCoug noticed the propensity for town

not

to lynch a self-voter and planned to use it to get off the chopping block today. It is a quick way to derail a wagon. Then when asked they simply respond, "Oh well I was just looking for responses to it, and here they are! Tada!"

If the lynch also fulfills a meta-game goal, even better. Don't vote for yourself! It's a crappy, scummy thing to do even if town. You do something like this as town, then it becomes accepted that town does it, and then scum can hide in it. (Which is exactly what I'm saying you are doing)

[Ectomancer]

Right now im not voting anyone but clocks sensless accusatioins of me are ridculous.
Oh my god i put cougar on L-4 which is practically L-5 since one of the votes was his. Its a random vote its not a big deal and you seem to be trying to find anything you can to get people away from you.

It's not that you put him at L-4. It's that you told the town you would do one thing then went against it with ridiculous reasoning. It's that you were jumping onto a wagon without posting any reason and when asked why you did you simply say;
"I couldn't spell CLOCK."

This is a good argument.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer had weak reasons to vote Strangercoug.

Admittedly selfvoting is idiotic but its a null tell, really.

Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

You completely miss the point. Self-voting is not a null tell if it has become so prevelant by town that it becomes assumed that the person doing it is town "trying to get reactions". Reactions to a self-vote are also a null tell, so there is very little point to them except to:
1: derail wagons - StrangerCoug did this, but even as town this could be expected.
2: bring a case based upon reactions to a crappy move by town - also not helpful because people voting someone over a self-vote is also a null tell. It's not a town move.

You look at why SC voted himself, and the fact that any "reactions" are null tells at best, and SC didnt make a single townie move.
He made a calculated decision to self-vote, expecting people to back off of him, and if they didn't, he could go on attack on the "null tell" basis.

I still see no reason why he should be given a free pass to make anti-town moves without being pressured as the very possible scum that he is.

[Ectomancer]

Oh my, the guy I have been attacking has placed a vote on me. Im shocked, shocked I'm telling ya. Are you upset that your attempts to get away with being "the townie who voted himself" are being questioned? Crappy play deserves to be rewarded with a vote

even if the only possible effect ends up being a meta deterrent

.
Your self-vote doesn't make you town, nor did it advance the game in any logical manner. Quit trying to defend a bad play with the weak excuse of "I was trying to get reactions". Well, you got a reaction Pal, let's see how you handle it.

[Ectomancer]

Nice post Rhinox.

unvote

I'm unvoting because I think that Clock has made an overall better case against MafiaMann than I have against TPT, and if I read the case properly, it looks like for Clock's case against to have ground, TPT would probably not be scum in order for MM to be going for an opportunistic wagon.

Backing Clock's case:

vote MafiaMann

[Ectomancer]

*nod*

That's what I was looking for, just some sort of evaluation on your part by him, because at the point in time that I posted it originally, neither of you had commented on each other .

I -would- like to see more explanation and reasons of why Ectomancer jumped on mafiamann with very little reason besides my own and the previous vote on him. Opportunistic much? I admit a bit WIFOM to suggest overeager bussing, but I do believe he has not played too terribly much here.

How are

you

supposed to be taking credit for my vote Bogre? I stated, and if you'll go back and look, you'll find a very well put together post against MafiaMann done by Clockwork that I found to be better than my case against TBT, and because the basis of his case depended upon MafiaMann voting TBT opportunistically, unless we are trying to say MM was bussing, it would mean TBT would be likely town with MM the opportunistic scum. I already stated that I thought Clockwork's case was better than mine, therefore I dropped my vote against TBT and placed on MafiaMann where it belongs.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, who is TBT?

A suspect from another ongoing game. My mistake. Obviously in this game it should be SC in place of TBT.

[Ectomancer]

Well after some research i did on the show Zaphod is the head meerkats husband if that means anything. if anyone else has a counterclaim go for it.

Zaphod WAS the dominant male until his mate Flower (the dominate female) was killed by a snake in season 2. Then iirc, Zaphod left the whiskers to become a full time roving male.

An interesting point about Zaphod. I've always been a Whisker.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

vote ClockWorkRuse

I'm town, so I know what the town role PM looks like and MM has it exactly correct. (No surprise there, it's posted by the mod). ClockWork seems to either not be sure that is exactly how the town PM's look (meaning he is scum), or he is fishing for a Power Role (who else but scum?).

[Ectomancer]

You're killing me here Rhinox. Go back and look at ClockWorks posts and see who is the one digging for Power Roles.

There is no more flavor in your pm in that? Nothing at all that might separate you from scum?

Well after some research i did on the show Zaphod is the head meerkats husband if that means anything. if anyone else has a counterclaim go for it.

That's not from your role PM, so no that doesn't help. And at this point a counter-claim could be very bad in my opinion.

Is there

any

flavor in your PM besides what you've posted?

Bolded by me.

This isn't flip-flopping. This is going after scumtells. This is altering your theories based upon new evidence. I didnt like that little exchange by ClockWork with MafiaMann.....at all. It looks to me like he pressing MM to go ahead and reveal if he actually has a power, but wanted to hold back yet, OR, he is looking to see if there might be any extra flavor type addition to a traditional town role just in case. In addition, the example PM by the mod is for a vanilla townie. If ClockWork wants to claim a Power Role later (roleblocker for example) as scum, he would want to know how that flavor sounds from the mod prior to making his claim.

Now do you see why I found his hard pressing for more flavor suspicious enough for a vote? Weak reasoning? Go insult someone else.

[Ectomancer]

I dont look at join dates when I'm responding to people, I respond to their arguments.

ecto wrote:

In addition, the example PM by the mod is for a vanilla townie. If ClockWork wants to claim a Power Role later (roleblocker for example) as scum, he would want to know how that flavor sounds from the mod prior to making his claim.


This actually makes some sense, but to use it to attack clock is a bit of circular reasoning (If clock is scum, he would want to know how power flavor sounds so he can use it to fake claim later. Clock is searching for extra flavor, so he must be scum looking for a way to fake claim a power role later on.) IMO, this is something to keep in mind for later in the game. Its not enough to warrent an FOS right now.

No, I'm not using circular reasoning. I'm looking for the motivations behind his full court press for flavor. I certainly didn't begin with a motivation to find him scum. I had just agreed with his case.

You

are being overly forgiving (he pressed twice for extra flavor, 'are you

sure

there's not some flavor??') for his behavior. Personally, when my scum alarm goes off harder than it has the whole game, Im switching my vote, regardless of where my vote currently lies.

P.S. - role claims aren't about "this is what you might be losing". It's about whether you believe them or not PLUS the reactions of other players in the game. I think you have your blinders on because you are so focused on getting this first lynch over with. Chill out, scum hunting isn't over just because you think the day might be ending soon with a lynch.

[Ectomancer]

Unless...

P.S. - role claims aren't about "this is what you might be losing". It's about whether you believe them or not PLUS the reactions of other players in the game.

...you can give me one good reason for believing MM's role claim.

Because I believe he was replying without quoting at first, not really comparing the sample PM and his. After he was continually pressed though, I could feel the slight indignation coming from him by his 3rd post (IIRC) when he finally went back and read it and realized, hey wait a second, it is

exactly

what the sample PM was except for the name, why are people pressing me for more flavor?

[Ectomancer]

I would say yes, it would be good for you to claim soon. Plus, please add any flavor your pm might have because the rules state the scum have been given safe-claims.

Interestingly enough, I missed this

third

(actually first) request by Clock for additional flavor. As I stated, I believe this is an attempt to make sure that when he finally claims (and possibly wanting to claim a power role), he wants as much information about any additional flavor that might not have made it into the sample PM as possible. Why? So that he doesn't make a stupid flavor mistake simply because he isn't sure what additional flavor a role other than vanilla might have.

[Ectomancer]

Whoa! Daykills? Didn't see

THAT

coming.

Nor did I, nor the martyr role (bomb?). Was Clock hoping to further set MafiaMan up by daykilling the guy who put the latest vote on him? Especially if he could argue that MM is probably the DayVig and made a kill while he still had a chance. (I think he was at L-1)

The question now is whether Ectomancer was setting up a bus on Clock. He seemed very determined that he "found" scum on some weak flavor hunting/power role hunting excuse.



What sucks is that I now question whether Clock and MM have been bussing this entire time. I just cant line up the daykill on the replacement player within a few posts of him showing up, unless he was just tossing in his daykill today to create Chaos. I cant think that he thought my case would really gain traction

today

and so he wanted to burn his daykill while he could. It makes me believe his action was a deliberate strategy, and not simply a panicked reaction to pressure.

[Ectomancer]

woah so what just happened?...so was Clock part of the mafia or something else? (confused)..like a SK maybe?

I dont know. The mod used the plural of predator(s) in the opening statement, as well as warning to watch out for commandoes. There are so many things I could speculate on, just from the fact that it was a daykill, or that even though this is a small game, we could still be looking at 2 scum groups of 2 players each.
Even if Clock was an SK, I still don't fathom his move. I also dont see it as a good strategy to bus your partner if there are 2 scum groups. So why exactly did he do what he did?

[Ectomancer]

The question now is whether Ectomancer was setting up a bus on Clock. He seemed very determined that he "found" scum on some weak flavor hunting/power role hunting excuse.

Uh, hello? Why are you referring to yourself in the third person while describing your own scummy actions?

It's only a bus if you and ClockworkRuse were scum on the same side, by the way. If Clock was a serial killer, then the bussing argument doesn't apply.

Yes I am, and it could still be bussing if we have 2 scum groups of 2. It may not be a good strategy to bus your partner if there are only 2 of you, like I said, but I've been known to play gambits before.

[Ectomancer]

Oh, you asked Why, not Are you.

I stated it that way because I would be asking that question myself if I were not me.

[Ectomancer]

Thanks for all the unvotings.

Unvote

(My vote was on clock but now he's dead)

Let's count the scum tells:
1: not voting
2: opportunistic voting (jumping on SC and calling it random IS opportunistic)
3: appeasement (voting to make muffin happy
4: appeasement again (unvoting immediately after being questioned about voting SC)
5: illogical defense (calling the vote on SC random)
6: illogical defense again (saying he didn't want to start a wagon, when he was actually jumping on a wagon, not starting one)
7: illogical defense again (couldn't spell clock)

Just for the sake of clarification, I don't count 2 as a scumtell since I don't think he is "jumping" on SC. I posted that I don't consider illogical defence during RV a scumtell as well, but you may have a point that 5,6,7 are scumtells since he posted them *outside* the RV stage.

I don't think appeasement is a scumtell though...he might just have an important power role so he might not want to get involved in controversy. Having said that, he has just claimed that he is townie, so it *is* possible that 3,4 points towards him being scum.

There are good reasons to consider 1 a scumtell, yes.

If you consider all of that in context, thats an awfully big hole that MM dug himself. It seems quite obviou to me why everyone is jumping on MM. What I want to know is why are you defending MM and then turning around and saying you're suspisious of everyone on the MM wagon? How do you think this will make you look if MM IS scum?

I'm defending MM because I don't want a mislynch. Yes, I know what I would look like if MM is scum, but that doesn't mean that we should preserve our reputations at all costs.

Mafiamann looks very scummy indeed. Still, his meta is holding me back from the wagon for now, plus the fact I am in no hurry to end this day.

Um what is "his meta"?

I dont recall making these statements and I'm not on

heavy

drugs...so....

[Ectomancer]

I don't think you can say you're trying to avoid a mislynch if you're both defending someone and conceding that he's scummy. Thats kinda contradictory.

You can say it, but what you are really doing is a balancing act. Hard to say whether you are looking at a cautious townie, or a non-committal scum though.

[Ectomancer]

Alright, let's do some loose theorizing here.

I dont think it is a far stretch to assume that Clock was working alone. (though I still say the possibility, however small, exists for 2 scum groups of 2) Regardless, another scum faction exists in the game and had no idea of Clock's alignment.

What would they do? I may be circling the WIFOM maelstrom and just may possibly fall in, but here goes:

They could assume Clock was town.
They might have gotten lucky and guessed him as a Predator.

I think the greater likelyhood is they would have thought him town. (as I did at one time)

So I think there are a couple of positions scum would try to occupy, depending upon whether MM is scum himself or not.

Let's say MM is town.

Early on in the wagon, scum might see a townie (Clock) attacking another townie (MM). At that time, one of the scum would be tempted to lend some early support to the wagon make sure it takes off. A researcher would comb this time frame for interactions.
Later in the wagon, if it looked like MM was going to be lynched for sure, if they had jumped on early, they would certainly be sitting securely there, and maybe even a little quiet about the whole thing now. If they had not voted against MM, in order to be active, they would probably be looking to toss in a few lines for the next day lynch by gently forwarding a case against someone else, or prepping for the Clock lynch if MM turned up town. (but not enough to derail the MM wagon)

Now, if we assume MM scum:

Early on, who knows what his partners would be doing.
Middle round, as the wagon builds, they might start getting nervous and feel obliged to defend MM, maybe subtly if they are feeling momentum going the wrong way. I believe this is also a good place to bus a partner if you can feel that the case is going to go through.
Late rounds, it is almost too late to bus, but scum might still do it, usually without advancing the case, just rehashing or rephrasing old arguments.

Now all of this seems to point to me wanting to lynch MM, because I think we could get some decent information if we knew his alignment. I hesitated to put forth that idea originally because, as you can see, the information would be dubious, unless he turns up scum. But there actually is a good and valid reason to lynch MM today, and that has to do with Clock turning up Predator.

If we assume Clock was a day SK, he had no idea of MM's alignment. You see, I was going to go back to my case against SC, because I moved off of it due to Clock's case against MM being a better one (IMO). SC's case is still pretty good.

However.

If I'm an SK, I scum hunt. I need them dead, the sooner, the better.

To me, that means that Clock's case isn't trash to be tossed aside. I think it was an honest one.

With that assessment:

vote MafiaMann

I think the case was a good one, and though the information gained may be too WIFOMish to use, I would still like to know whether Clock was right.

[Ectomancer]

@MM - You need to read the ' Self-Voting: is it always a bad idea?' thread.

[Ectomancer]

Alright while looking at mafiamanns death, I came across these quotes:

I'm crediting your vote to myself and clockwork, because scum can find it easy to hide behind a wave of people jumping on a bandwagon. You've already said yourself that you changed because of Clockwork.

Bogre tried to take credit for Ecto's vote against mafiamann, saying it was due to him and clock (when originally he said cass, then said he meant clock but switched the C's, made no sense there). This is a big reach imo to say Ecto did it because of HIM and clock, when really it was Clocks post against MM that made Ecto change his mind. Then he said "a wave of people" jumping on the band wagon, when really at the time the vote count was MafiaMann – 5 (wolframnhart, ClockworkRuse, muffinhead, Bogre, Ectomancer). Myself, Clock, and Muffin had been on their originally, so the "wave" of people had been Bogre himself, then Ecto after clocks post. This is Bogre trying to use wording to his advantage.

@Rhinox: Today is not the time to lynch lurkers, imo. Although your addressment of the weak claims of Ectomancer have been quite good, I must say I've never seen the point in 'I'm voting you lurker answer now'. One vote is not too much pressure on a lurker, just more of a placeholder, imo.

Ectomancer I believe is a good lynch for tomorrow. Look at how he jumps on Mafiamann's bandwagon with very little reasoning, then as soon as that is pointed out, he finds a weak, papery case to jump -off- the bandwagon and try to direct attention away from Mafman.

Then Bogre sets up Ecto for todays lynch, saying he would be the best bet and to not lynch lurkers, when thats exactly what he was doing. If you look at it, after page 8 when clock/woodman dies, Bogre hasn't posted, possibly wanting to distance himself from Clocks mistake.

FoS Bogre

My name is in there alot, so I can't entirely trust my feelings on this, but this is not a weak case. I'd like to hear a good response from Bogre.

[Ectomancer]

Muffin, the problem with your post as I just did a quick skim (busy atm), is that I dont see where you took on Clock's case against MM at all. My support for that case came before we knew what Clock's alignment was, which we mostly agree is probably a lone SK. As I explained, I didn't see why I needed to simply toss away a case that I thought superior to the one I had going. It was a good one, and I didn't see his death altering that.

[Ectomancer]

Explain why you think Cass's vote is opportunistic, and why your vote on Cass isn't.

Failure to explain your vote = opportunistic vote. Opportunistic vote = scummy. Scummy actions = vote on you. Therefore, failure to explain your vote = vote on you.

Opportunistic is situational, not a failure to explain your vote. Anyhow, Cass gave some reasons. I'm not understanding your reasoning for your vote.

[Ectomancer]

Before I say anything else, is failure to pay attention necessarily scummy?

Depends on what you fail to pay attention

to

I agree with Rhinox that your vote looks to be exactly what you accused Cass of doing.

[Ectomancer]

Actually Rhinox, I'm watching, but since you asked if I am still here or not, yes. Im reviewing your actions towards the end of the day yesterday and am wondering.
You defended Clock rather strongly. I'm not questioning you because he turned up scum, I'm questioning because nobody should have had any idea of what his alignment would be. I know one scum tactic is to defend a townie against an attack, because when they turn up town, you of course were the wiser. It makes them much less likely to go against your "judgement" later.
Tell me why I should not believe this to be your motivation earlier. Clock turned up SK (we think), but as scum, you would have been just as likely to believe him town and would have acted accordingly.

As for Bogre, my general impression from reading was not favorable. I would want to re-read him before making a decision.
You asked some interesting questions of Muffin. I'd like to hear his answers. CKD also has some interesting comments concerning him.

[Ectomancer]

That was a good answer directed to me. I did take exception with the following statement from the previous paragraph because it is inherently untrue:

Even if you really are a townie, I don't think we'll lose anything by your death.

Of course we lose something. This is a game of numbers, and any that we lose from our column is a bad deal for us.

[Ectomancer]

I wanted to comment on your belief that predators know each other. Earlier I went through this line of reasoning. If they know each other, then we likely have 2 scum groups of 2. After thinking on it, I believe that a 2 scum 1 SK in a 12 player game is more likely. 4 scum, even in 2 groups, is a bit much without stacking town with roles other than vanilla. Given that the 2 scenarios lead to different lines of investigation, I submit that we stick primarily to the most likely (2 scum, 1 SK) until we either uncover another predator by scum hunting, or we eliminate the Commandoes.

[Ectomancer]

On Bogre: I looked at the case on him, and I feel Im too close to the argument to be objective. We likely only have 7 town. If I dont vote for him, and Bogre is scum, 5 of 6 of you will need to be voting for him unless his partner decides to bus.
If he were town, I would have thought his bandwagon would have grown faster because scum would be trying to help it along. (I know, entirely an unsupported opinion)
That's why Im really not liking Jonathan's vote when you take in his last 2 comments.

Vote: Bogre

This is just for pressure, not planning to lynch just yet. Hopefully he will come back and post.

I did not vote anyone yesterday for the same reasons, and also because everyone seemed to be on MM's case which I disagreed with.

To paraphrase: Im placing my vote, but I'm not actually committing myself so I'll be clear if he turns up town. Also, I didnt commit my vote yesterday, and oh yes, I didnt agree with the case on that townie yesterday.

vote jonathantan86

He is 'helping' along a bandwagon, yet backpedaling in the middle of doing it. I dont like it.

[Ectomancer]

muffin's lack of anything is telling.

Not really.

I find it interesting that Muffin's case seems to be somewhat intertwined with that of Bogre, one theory being one of bussing Bogre. Yet, now that Bogre has been replaced and VI made a good entry, the focus is on Muffin and a claim?
While I cant discount the pressure for him to claim, I find this latest development to be an odd one. If Bogre is considered to be 'ok' for now, how are we still going after Muffin for bussing Bogrescum? I know there is more, but it seems like one leg was just kicked out.

[Ectomancer]

================================================

I'm actualy slightly suspisious of Ecto for wanting to keep muffin around. I think a good move for a scum or SK would be to keep a scummy looking townie around as long as possible for the reasons I stated above, and then if at some point muffin were to die he could say he was right for not lynching him. At the very least, ecto could be doing the exact same thing he accused me of doing about "defending" clock.

However, I would also expect a scum or SK to be hammering muffin if muffin were townie, and ecto is NOT doing that by trying to keep us from hammering muffin. So, the only conclusion I can draw right now is that I'm uncomfortable about ecto, but the evidence for a case is lacking.

================================================

Asking for someone to re-evaluate their case based upon latest trends is a fine hair from defending the target of the case. Based upon the behavior exhibited towards Bogre's replacement, and the arguments that I saw that placed Bogre and Muffin together in the case, I'd like to see that case re-done by those pushing it, without the conspiracy theory intertwined for reinforcement.

muffin's lack of anything is telling.

Not really.

I find it interesting that Muffin's case seems to be somewhat intertwined with that of Bogre, one theory being one of bussing Bogre. Yet, now that Bogre has been replaced and VI made a good entry, the focus is on Muffin and a claim?
While I cant discount the pressure for him to claim, I find this latest development to be an odd one. If Bogre is considered to be 'ok' for now, how are we still going after Muffin for bussing Bogrescum? I know there is more, but it seems like one leg was just kicked out.

it is telling, muffin came into the game spouting how he was the expert..now that he is getting heat nothing. Also, there was pressure for him to claim before VI joined the game.

My case against Muffin has nothing (if little) to do with Bogre.

I disagree. For all we know, he could be embarrassed to have stated that he was the most experienced, and then proven to be not even close to it. Thus far, it's been typical for him to go 2 to 5 days in between posting. When he does post, it's usually in big chunks.
I didn't say he shouldn't claim.

Do me a favor and cliff's notes that case without Bogre for me.

[Ectomancer]

However, I would also expect a scum or SK to be hammering muffin if muffin were townie,

something about this statement doesnt sit right with me. if muffin is a townie, how do you know that the SK (if we have another) or scum are not already on the wagon?

I believe that he is saying that about me specifically, as I am not on the wagon. It is actually a WIFOM statement though, even still. An SK or scum could just as easily be wanting to avoid the scrutiny that can come from being the hammer vote against a townie.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, let's take a look at your evaluation of Muffin:

My personal conclusions:

I agree with the muffinhead lynch. He's not necessarily Commando, but between his eagerness to vote mafiamann D1 and his overall deficient responses to the Cloud of Suspicion D2 it would be tough to make a case for his Towniness following the random vote stage. Either way, as of now he's acting as dead weight and a scumminess magnet that will just distract from future conversation. I agree with Rhinox; it's a utility lynch that I believe will help more than keeping him alive.

Alright, his eagerness to vote MafiaMann? I'm not certain that I saw it that way. He agreed with Clock's case when it was presented, and it was Clock's case that I referenced when I decided to also vote for MafiaMann. Why would he not stay on the wagon when I referenced the exact case he said he approved of?
Much of other suspicion I saw was his use of the phrase "to be all honest". Null tell here for me, maybe others have different experiences.
I believe that Cloud of Suspicion you referenced

was

strongly tied to a Muffin/Bogre scum pairing, which is why I asked about it in the first place. Could you elaborate on that Cloud of Suspicion? It is a foggy term to me. Part of the issue people were having with Muffin was that he could not see the case on

your

role Vi. Are you saying there

is

a good case on you and Muffin should have seen it?

Now that was a piece of defense Rhinox
There are some determined players on this lynch. So certain.
The legs this case is standing on look weak to me. I'll just have to get over it if some of you take offense to that opinion.

[Ectomancer]

Well, you do try Vi, I'll give you that. But listen, in my estimation, much of what you said could be explained by Muffin simply being lazy. I think this is why people are pushing the 'utility lynch' angle. (An angle I do not agree with without a deadline hanging over our heads) In my experience though, lazy is not equal to scum.
I do agree with you that at this point a replacement can be hoped for, but I would be content to see Muffin come back and apply himself.

[Ectomancer]

Very well. If you do not want muffinhead lynched, then there's an obvious follow-up question: What would you recommend we do instead? I would rather not have the game sit around until next month for muffinhead to be replaced (even if it fits the absence in my sig).

Perhaps it wasn't your intention with this statement, but I wont be misdirected. Simply leaving Muffin's case out there to be utilized at the proper moment without clearing it up here and now is a poor choice for us. What would I recommend we do instead? Wait for the claim in Muffinhead's case. He is at L-1 on what I believe I have demonstrated is a case that isn't as lock down as the confidence I'm seeing displayed would merit. So I would also like to hear once again who is still supporting that case in light of what I had to say. The purpose of that is to make people commit to their opinions.
In answer to your last question, I'll stay in Iraq for 100 years if...err..I mean, I'll wait a month for that claim or replacement if necessary, though I guarantee I'll be harrassing the mod before then.

[Ectomancer]

Also Vi, you may have missed this, but this is the direction I took the morning of the day you replaced in. Maybe you feel too close to the argument as well, but for now this is my play. General town sentiment towards Bogre/Vi since you replaced in probably lends credence to this line of thought.

On Bogre: I looked at the case on him, and I feel Im too close to the argument to be objective. We likely only have 7 town. If I dont vote for him, and Bogre is scum, 5 of 6 of you will need to be voting for him unless his partner decides to bus.
If he were town, I would have thought his bandwagon would have grown faster because scum would be trying to help it along. (I know, entirely an unsupported opinion)
That's why Im really not liking Jonathan's vote when you take in his last 2 comments.

Vote: Bogre

This is just for pressure, not planning to lynch just yet. Hopefully he will come back and post.

I did not vote anyone yesterday for the same reasons, and also because everyone seemed to be on MM's case which I disagreed with.

To paraphrase: Im placing my vote, but I'm not actually committing myself so I'll be clear if he turns up town. Also, I didnt commit my vote yesterday, and oh yes, I didnt agree with the case on that townie yesterday.

vote jonathantan86

He is 'helping' along a bandwagon, yet backpedaling in the middle of doing it. I dont like it.

[Ectomancer]

Won't you feel stupid if you hammer and he turns out to be a cop? (For example, obv.) For that reason, I do ask you to wait until Muffin has been online at least (or gets replaced).

last night I targetted cass and got an innocent. But im not coming to any coclusions till I know that im sane.

Talk about this coincidence Muffinhead.

[Ectomancer]

Yosarian was indeed troubled, but he always did what he thought best for town. I would consider him 'paranpoid', even when he turned out wrong.

[Ectomancer]

I've argued before that the claimed cop should be lynched to save grief later.
I was scum that game.
I dont like the Yosarian/Cop pairing.

[Ectomancer]

Yosarian was indeed troubled, but he always did what he thought best for town. I would consider him 'paranpoid', even when he turned out wrong.

I've argued before that the claimed cop should be lynched to save grief later.
I was scum that game.
I dont like the Yosarian/Cop pairing.

So do you think muffinhead a.k.a. Yossarian is a cop? A paranoid cop is one that always receives guilty results right? So muffinhead is not a paranoid cop.

Do you still argue that this claimed cop (muffinhead) should be lynched?

What do you mean by not liking the Yossarian/Cop pairing?

Never watched the show?Yosarian as cop makes no sense. Im not really believing the claim.

[Ectomancer]

Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has

strong

ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.

[Ectomancer]

@Ectomancer: Surely flavor is not the only reason you want muffinhead alive.

I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm, what has been termed a terrible defense on my part is in actuality my display of the weakness of the case. Do not attack others for your failures, rather modify them, or own up to them.

[Ectomancer]

Alot of things have been posted, but of all of them, I think Rhinox has the chain of events down best. The one situation where you miight leave a claimed cop alive is if you know they are the final scum. You can believe every innocent the give, and if they give scum and you lynch town (except in LYLO), we win.
Whether or not I would have defended Muffin is WIFOM, nothing really there for or against me. I do have a gut feeling that a partner could not have resisted a bus from the major momentum going.

[Ectomancer]

It's a pretty good case, but Im afraid that I really cant reply to a wall of text like that. Some things, of course are indefensible. You tend to waffle when town and you arent exactly you arent sure what you are doing. It happens.
A few things. I asked people to re-explain their cases after they decided Vi/Bogre was ok. It's not an unreasonable request. Later I did ask to keep him around for the following reasons.
2: I DO like Yosarian. He was my favorite. So I want him to be a good guy? Sue me.
3: I do think we are down to 1 scum. If that is right, every innocent result a scum cop gives has to be true. Since you dont know if he is scum or not, you can keep letting him tell you who is town. I've had it work before to narrow down targets.
4: Dont forget, he could have been cop.

Anyhow, line up anything else in sizable chunks. I can reply, but not to entire chapters.

[Ectomancer]

@Rhinox -
1- he was my favorite. That's just the way it is. People do things for stranger reasons.
2 - The game was some time ago, and I had to recall how the scenario worked, hence my caveat that I needed to think about it. Turns out in that case we couldn't have used it. I didnt have the opportunity to explain myself because conversation was cut short. Coincidental?
3 - I didnt beleive his claim, but I can always be wrong. I was busy working out how to use his claim.

I dont believe as some of you do that scum should be lynched as soon as you find them. More can be gained by keeping them talking than by lynching them, if that is, you already know they are scum, and some of you were too damn certain, werent you? Best thing for a scum that has been found out is to shut up and not say a thing.

[Ectomancer]

I dont believe as some of you do that scum should be lynched as soon as you find them. More can be gained by keeping them talking than by lynching them, if that is, you already know they are scum, and some of you were too damn certain, werent you? Best thing for a scum that has been found out is to shut up and not say a thing.

interesting statement...are you saying you thought muffin was scum and you were trying to get more information?..or am I reading this incorrectly?

To make this perfectly clear: If you have 1 scum left in game, and Cop is claimed, anytime that claimed cop give an innocent result, you can believe it, regardless of their alignment. Either the cop will find a guilty, or more people get cleared.
Anyhow, that wasn't the case in this situation (which is why I said I had to think about it first)

[Ectomancer]

did you answer my question?

I did answer your question. Muffin might have been scum, or he might not have been, that point is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a situation whereby you can get a good result from a claimed cop, regardless of their alignment. After I thought about it, I realized that we couldn't in this case because you have to know that there is only one scum.
We never quite got that far in the discussion though did we? Someone HAD to hammer. (Oh wow, it was you CKD)
I think it was clear that I was busy pursuing avenues of information. I think it equally clear that my line of investigation (though incorrect upon further thought) was cut short. At the time, you had no idea whether my line of investigation would yield results or not, and so you offed your scum mate before anything could possible be revealed. (Ironically enough, there was nothing, but you had to act anyhow)

vote CKD

[Ectomancer]

Sorry for not posting more in this game. I'll try to be better.

Ecto's defense is very weak and, I dunno... weasely? It makes no sense to me at all. Jonathan's defense is not convincing either. I agree that these two are the biggest suspects right now.

After rereading, I don't think Jonathan is Muffin's buddy (unless, maybe, if there were three commandoes). He

could

be a serial killer - but that's mostly a gut feeling. Besides, we don't know if there's even a predator still alive. If I had to vote now, I'd vote for Ecto.

My defense is neither weak nor weasley. What has occured is that there were some very ticked off people when I asked them to re-inforce their case on Muffin in light of the change of heart by town on Bogre. That didnt sit right with me. (They never did address this, but this furor is drowning that out. They act like Muffin turning up scum changes the fundamental arguement. It doesn't)
The discussion

was indeed

cut off by CKD's hammer unjustifiably. Can he explain why?

Interesting that you claim that I am targeting the toughest scum hunter, when that person is ME. Im the one questioning cases without taking shit for granted. IM the one who smelled Clock's mistake as scum, and I dare you to suggest I was his partner. Even with Muffin turning scum I was STILL the person digging hard at the rock to make sure we had the right one.
You have a very hard time proving to anyone that I havent been scum hunting Rhinox. Also, for town members, even if you feel like you would vote for me, you are helping out scum by actually stating it. Let them wonder until (if ) you hammer me.

Let me say one more thing, only one of you is likely scum. The other need to pull their heads out and look to see who is tunnel visioning and cutting off discussion with hammers.

[Ectomancer]

Well, if you know someone is scum, and you defend him - things look bad for you after he get's lynched. Defending him is also pretty much by definition lying, which is a bad thing for a townie to do. The kind of thing that gets you killed.

@Ectomancer: if had been on earlier, I might have hammered muffin instead of CKD. So I find it hard to see that as something scummy. There didn't seem to be much useful discussion anymore, a majority was convinced that he was scum, so a hammer seemed perfectly ok to me. Your defense that in certain circumstances it can be usefull to leave scum alive strikes me as really off - does it mean you knew yesterday that he was scum? Then why would you defend him? Semms self-destructive for a townie. It also simply does not apply to this situation. Bad fake-claim = lynch, definitely when there's still several scum alive.

First, I had said that I thought there was a way to get info from a cop claim, even if you didnt actually know their alignment. There is, but it didnt apply in this situation. I never got the opportunity to follow up and say "hmm, it doesnt apply here, and here is why".
My entire point there was that we could possibly use him regardless. That is apparently scummy?
2nd, there I still see no problem with forcing people to defend their case.
3rd, it is a well known scum tactic to kill off conversation once you think one of them is busted, especially when someone like me was pursuing more information before a lynch.

If you have stopped looking for information at anytime during the game, even if you are 99.99% certain you have scum, you still have learning to do.

[Ectomancer]

P.S. - Posting walls of text, then later going back and saying "Look, you didnt respond to something", is really beneath response. If something wasn't answered, ask again without the scummy drama.

[Ectomancer]

ECTO you seem to completely be overlooking this post...is that on purpose or did you just over look it.

I am going to go ahead and

unvote

(for now)...

Vi, I am not sure why you are asking "is it worth keeping a non-helpful townie around"...a townie is a townie, I am not about to lynch someone because I think they are just unhelpful..I will lynch someone who i think is scummy...AND if he is telling the truth he might be a "non-helpful" townie that has a cop role.

Muffin, at this point, i want a PbP breakdown...a sentence or two will do..but I want your opinion on everyone...quit lurking, or I will return my vote.

I unvoted when he was at -1....I gave him time to provide insight...when he DIRECTLY avoided this question (his next post avoided it) and continued lurking I thought it was quite scummy...he obviously wasnt going to provide any additional information....and if I remember right..all the time you were defending him...

now you are trying to spin it like you were scum hunting when what you were really doing was trying to get muffin off the hook...nice.

you are scum.

To paraphrase " I really didnt want to vote him,and even unvoted him once, but by golly gosh gee darn it, I just had to"

You cut off a line of questioning I was pursuing, deal with the fact that I dont like you having done it.

[Ectomancer]

For the record, my gut also tells me that its quite obvious ecto should be lynched today - but thats also the problem. Its TOO obvious, looks TOO perfect, and seems way TOO easy. Its like its all wrapped up in a pretty little box with a bow for us - something that could have been set up once ecto made the decision to defend muffin. That is why I haven't place my vote yet.

This is WIFOM meta, but go read my games. Do you really think I make mistakes like this one? What I've garnered thus far is that I was protecting Muffin SO hard because I really didnt want to bus him. Who really gives a rats ass about your scum partner? The object of the game is to win, and I dont need a partner around to do it.
Why does it make sense for me to do what I did when the easy thing would have been a nice hammer Bus were I scum? Anybody could have hidden on that bus....
What I was after was more information, thought I had a way of getting it, but realized I was wrong before our boy got lynched.

[Ectomancer]

@Ectomancer: Surely flavor is not the only reason you want muffinhead alive.

I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

I got in one more jab about a weak case before you hammered and killed all conversation.

I attacked the case against Muffin, which is a fine line difference from defending the target of a case. This was reviewed already. Where were you?

It didn't matter whether I believed the cop claim (and at this point the cat is rather out of the bag isnt it?). If you've, I've said several times now that there is a situation whereby you can use the investigations by a claimed cop, regardless of their alignment. The problem is that you have to know you only have 1 scum. Remember that, it may come in useful one day. The game is only up when the claimed cop calls out guilty, then the game is afoot.
Anyhow, that wasnt the situation here, and as I've pointed out repeatedly, you hammered before I had time to reveal whether I believed him or not. Now is a bit late to ask that question. Might you have asked it before you hammered?

[Ectomancer]

@Rhinox - Im not wrong, and your vote is in irritation. I wasn't ready for the day to end, and I was certainly not going to be rushed along. As for your assumptions, your ego is leading you to believe every comment is aimed directly at you and in as negative a manner as possible. Cool your blood.

[Ectomancer]

Tired of the "there is no wall of text" arguement. This is the crap I had to go through from one visit to the next. It's a wall of text. Get over it if something was missed.

Rhinox
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Location: Cleveland, OH


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: 413 Reply with quote
I guess now would be a good time to express some general feelings on all of the players in the context of knowing muffin was scum. (and Vi was town)

===================================================

@Ecto, I would like you to paraphrase the following posts for me into what exactly your official stance on muffin was... I don't know what it is exactly, and maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but something doesn't seem quite right with your postings after muffin's claim.

ecto wrote:
Cass wrote:

Won't you feel stupid if you hammer and he turns out to be a cop? (For example, obv.) For that reason, I do ask you to wait until Muffin has been online at least (or gets replaced).

muffin wrote:

last night I targetted cass and got an innocent. But im not coming to any coclusions till I know that im sane.

Talk about this coincidence Muffinhead.

Here I get the feeling you're not buying muffin's claim because its too much of a coincidence.

ecto wrote:
Yosarian was indeed troubled, but he always did what he thought best for town. I would consider him 'paranpoid', even when he turned out wrong.

Here I think you're saying that "yosarian, the meerkat" was paranoid, although he always did what he thought was best for the whiskers. We know muffin was not a paranoid cop because he gave us an innocent result, so I think you're saying yosarian/muffin =/= cop.

ecto wrote:
I've argued before that the claimed cop should be lynched to save grief later.
I was scum that game.
I dont like the Yosarian/Cop pairing.

Here I think you're saying one of two things: either you want to get rid of muffin to save grief for later but you don't want us to think you're scum because thats what you did once when you were scum - or - you're saying that you think its scummy to want to get rid of muffin to save grief, even though you don't think it makes sense for yosarian to be a cop.

ecto wrote:
Never watched the show?Yosarian as cop makes no sense. Im not really believing the claim.

Here you explicitly state that you don't think the yosarian/cop pairing makes sense from a flavor standpoint, and you don't believe muffin's claim.

Now things start to get very interesting...
ecto wrote:
Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has strong ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.

With no explanation as to why, you've gone from "yosarian as a cop makes no sense" to "yosarian could be a cop" all based on flavor. why the flip flop? And you explicitly tell us to not lynch muffin.

ecto wrote:
I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

Now you're presenting as a reason to leave muffin alive that "you've always liked Yosarian". Also, you think that muffin might be a scum cop that must tell the truth. I don't see how this make any sense at all. Firstly, a scum cop is only good to find out the predators - it doesn't take a scum cop to tell us that a townie is a townie. Any scum could do that. Secondly, how do you force a scum cop to always tell us honest results? A scum cop isn't going to investigate another scum, so a scum cop would never be forced to tell us who scum are. If a scum cop tells us who is a confirmed townie, how do we actually confirm that without knowing that the supposed scum cop is not only a scum, but a scum cop, but a scum cop who must tell us accurate results? And Thirdly, if a townie is still a townie, no matter how worthless, a scum is still a scum and I see no reason to leave alive a scum cop even if he must tell us his investigation results. So I don't get what the point of this post was, other than to cause confusion.

ecto wrote:
Hmm, what has been termed a terrible defense on my part is in actuality my display of the weakness of the case. Do not attack others for your failures, rather modify them, or own up to them.

What exactly does this post mean? Because what I'm reading is that you're inability to provide a good reason to not lynch muffin somehow proves that muffin's case was weak - And that does not make any sense at all. Also, what point does the last sentence have in existing? What failure are you referring to? Five of us saw something in muffin that you refused to believe - that muffin was scum. With the possibility that muffin got bussed aside, you were very intent on stopping the lynch on muffin, even thought you didn't believe his claim.

So what I'm getting at is no matter how many times I read through these posts, I see you on both sides of the muffin fence, all while posting little content at all. First, you think muffin's case is weak. Then, you don't believe his claim. Then, you possibly do believe his claim that he might be cop. Then, you introduce some sort of scum-cop confusion where a scum cop is secretely useful for the town to keep around. Then you go back to claiming again how the case on muffin is a weak case.

So, unless I misunderstood, something seems very off with this line of posting of yours. Please, tell me if I've taken a wrong interpretation somewhere along the way, and if not, what message exactly were you trying to get across with all of these posts? Because I can't think of anything that makes sense from a "ecto is town" pre-assumption.

addendum #1 to include a comment based on the night kill:
Vi wrote:
Considering that Ectomancer was the leader of the "let's not lynch muffinhead" voice and has done such a poor job of defending him, I believe I have a more compelling reason to see muffinhead lynched now than sheer utility. If he flips scum, then Ectomancer has painted a giant target on himself.


So ecto, if you're scum, you knew Vi would be coming straight after you once muffin was shown to be scum. Also, you spent a good part of yesterday arguing the weak case supporting a possible scum pairing of Vi/Bogre and muffin. That means, you would be hypocritical to attempt to get Vi lynched. So, Vi was a big threat, with little possibility of getting lynched. Things that make you go hmmmmm... I won't try to hang you yet thought because there is a possibility you're being framed.

===================================================

@cass: I'm wondering if muffin had the balls to tell us his scum partner is innocent, or if he just picked a "townie" to say was innocent. I guess there is really no way to know for sure. Townie is in quotes because we still don't know if we are down to only scum and town - there might still be a predator left.

===================================================

@(the ghost of) Vi:
I had a section here prepared for you as well. The abridged version (since you're dead) is that ckd thought you might want to be on muffin's wagon, but were afraid to hammer. I was thinking that the only way you would be afraid to hammer is if you either knew muffin was town (making you scum), or if you were townie and you thought there was a chance muffin was being honest. Since muffin was scum, if you were planning on bussing him it wouldn't have mattered really if you were a hammer vote or not, but if you were afraid to hammer, that supports that you were a townie concerned about the ramifications of hammering a claimed cop.

===================================================

@ckd: You were right about clock being an evil faction, and despite disagreements about the "to be honest" tell, you were 100% dead on right about muffin from the start. That was either a very impressive case of bussing, or you're just very good at catching scum. I'm going with the latter, at least until/unless anything comes up to change my mind.

===================================================

@wolf and coug: I lost a bit of a read on both of you throughout the day, but you were both on muffin's lynch early and hard, and I would like to think that is too early for a scum to be bussing their partner (unless it was a pre-planned gambit, but thats unlikely). I have no reason to believe either of you to be scum right now, but I'm not ready to completely ride either of you off as town either. For now, I consider both of you relatively safe.

===================================================

@jonathan: You've been generally unhelpful in that most of your comments are in defense of yourself - you don't really bring anything new into conversations. Even though you didn't vote for muffin, I got the feeling you wanted to, but were afraid of the consequences of hammering if muffin WAS a cop. Much like with Vi, I don't think that is consistent with a scum bussing a scum partner. The difference from Vi is that you didn't vote at all, so your threat to hammer might have been nothing more than just an empty threat, and you really had no intent of hammering because he was your scum partner. I'm still quite nervous about your role.

===================================================

To summarize, it was speculated a little while back that in a game of 12, a scum group of 2 (maybe 3) and 1 sk was enough evil factions unless the town had many power roles. If this is the case, then we only have to find 1 (or maybe 2) scum in order to win. Looking back at all the players in context of the muffin lynch (and now Vi's death), I think ecto makes a good candidate for who that scum might be. There are others who wouldn't suprise me if they were scum, but I think its pretty obvious that we need to look very closely at ecto today to attempt to derive whether he could be scum, or if he simply made himself too good of a target to frame.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
Cass
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Female
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: The fourth dimension


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: 414 Reply with quote
I think Muffin either picked a random townie to declare innocent, or he went off my post that expressed lynching cops is bad, and it was a buddying attempt.

I am much looking forward to ecto's response to your accusations - the interaction between him and muffin was indeed interesting.

I think, though this is purely intuition, that there are two more scum. Either two more commandoes, or one commando and one predator. So, one possibility is that Ecto is a commando and Jonathan a predator. (Although in that case, the low amount of kills is puzzling.)

Vi "the babysitter" - sounds like a protective power role to me. Could he have been a doc, perhaps? Or, if we take the flavor very literally, a bodyguard? Then, besides self-defense and framing, an alternative reason for the NK might have been misdirection (Vi protected whoever was targeted).
_________________
If violence doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
Rhinox
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Location: Cleveland, OH


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: 415 Reply with quote
cass wrote:

Vi "the babysitter" - sounds like a protective power role to me. Could he have been a doc, perhaps? Or, if we take the flavor very literally, a bodyguard? Then, besides self-defense and framing, an alternative reason for the NK might have been misdirection (Vi protected whoever was targeted).


oooh... very good point. Actually, the bodyguard thing makes a lot of sense. I didn't even think of that. Scratch the addendum part out of my previous post, because its possible that Vi wasn't even the target last night. That doesn't even remotely let ecto off the hook though.

Regarding Vi being a possible bodyguard, its possible he didn't even know he was a bodyguard. Going off the flavor, I could imagine Vi's role to be babysitter for the pups, takes the fall if a whisker pup is targeted. Otherwise, he would have to know who the pups were and guess properly which one to protect each night.

As far as remaining scum go, my cute little meerkat body is still very afraid there may be a predator lurking out there somewhere, but at this point, that only makes sense if the predators aren't forced to kill. (assuming predators are sk's, sk's are usually forced to make all of their kills, right?)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
wolframnhart
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Location: California


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: 416 Reply with quote
I'm beginning to be more inclined to think Jon is Muffins partner. Reason being I think that Muffin claiming Cop and saying Cass was innocent is true (the Cass part). More then likely this is Muffin trying to get Cass on his side (which worked for Cass did unvote) but it seems more like Muffin trying to get a lynch set up for today if he did end up getting lynched (which he did). The reason I say this is because Jon wouldn't touch the Muffinwagon. Maybe he did believe Muffin was cop, but, Jon got on Bogre's wagon and then when attention turned to Muffin he wouldn't touch it. Gave a few empty threats of a vote, but all in all he wouldn't go near Muffin. So Muffin claiming Cass innocent seems more like he was trying to get a "easy" lynch for Jon to get on today.
_________________
Muerrto: Well, if you're scum Wolf, you don't need any lessons in sounding sincere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
StrangerCoug
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 May 2008
Location: El Paso, TX


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: 417 Reply with quote
Vote: Ectomancer for defending muffinhead solely on flavor. I don't have time for a good read right now (class is in five minutes), but that's my number one suspect going into today.
_________________
STRANGERCOUG: Stranger Than You!

Due to college, access is somewhat limited on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the daytime although I have access to a computer at school.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Rhinox
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Location: Cleveland, OH


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: 418 Reply with quote
wolframnhart wrote:
I'm beginning to be more inclined to think Jon is Muffins partner. Reason being I think that Muffin claiming Cop and saying Cass was innocent is true (the Cass part). More then likely this is Muffin trying to get Cass on his side (which worked for Cass did unvote) but it seems more like Muffin trying to get a lynch set up for today if he did end up getting lynched (which he did). The reason I say this is because Jon wouldn't touch the Muffinwagon. Maybe he did believe Muffin was cop, but, Jon got on Bogre's wagon and then when attention turned to Muffin he wouldn't touch it. Gave a few empty threats of a vote, but all in all he wouldn't go near Muffin. So Muffin claiming Cass innocent seems more like he was trying to get a "easy" lynch for Jon to get on today.

So if I follow you, you're saying that muffin claimed Cass innocent so that if muffin got lynched and was revealed as scum, jonathan would have an easy target to go after in Cass? I'm not sure I buy that, because I don't think anyone sees Cass as a valid target only because a scum fake-claimed cop with an innocent on her - which means if jonathan tried to make that case, no one would go with it. Also, if this was the plan, why cass? I think it would have been 'better' to set up an innocent on Vi, since there was already the possible bogre/muffin connection (that we only now know was wrong). However, almost any other player would have also fit in the 'innocent result' spot in this plan, so I think there must have been a different reason to say Cass was innocent. I think the probable answer is that Cass thought it would be bad if we lynched a cop, so muffin claimed cop with an added benefit that cass was innocent to try to really buddy up to cass.

The bastardly move would be if cass is secretly in muffin's scum group, and made the "wouldn't you feel stupid if muffin was a cop" comment to set up muffin's fake claim, and muffin said Cass was innocent so if muffin was lynched, we would think that he was just trying to buddy up to townie cass (who is secretely scum).

Now, I'm not trying to say jonathan is not/can not be the scum because of this, I just don't think this is very good evidence to prove that he is. Assuming Cass is town, she might be onto something with the ecto-scum, jonathan-sk idea if there were a logical reason to explain the lack of sk kills. Maybe its possible ecto and jonathan are both commando scum? I do think an interesting point you brought up is that jonathan voted bogre, but didn't vote muffin. That might be saying something.

coug wrote:
Vote: Ectomancer for defending muffinhead solely on flavor. I don't have time for a good read right now (class is in five minutes), but that's my number one suspect going into today.

I think maybe you might take a little bit of heat for doing this so rashly. Firstly, ecto didn't defend muffin solely on flavor. Ecto started defending muffin after Vi replaced in well before muffin even claimed (that is, if you consider calling the case against muffin weak as defending muffin). And secondly, if I humor the idea that Vi was killed directly in an attempt to further frame ecto, your quick vote here could be interpreted as trying to opportunisticly start that bandwagon, especially since you didn't take the time to properly justify your vote.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
curiouskarmadog
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Location: Roanoke, Va


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: 419 Reply with quote
Nice 2 for 2 for this game.

ok, going to post when I have a moment...getting close to the "big date" for me....and my future mother-in-law is coming in today..will try to post a response to the events of yesterday and today (thus far)....

it is hard for me to swallow that ecto was so blatantly defending muffin if they were partners...I need to see the timing of when the "defense" began...I think Ecto would say that it wasnt a defense as it was an attacking on the "weak" case against muffin...but I for one, dont think the case was weak...anyway, I need to review the timing of it all.

I have not liked Coug for some time. Also need to see when he jumped on and off things yesterday..his vote today, seems hasty especailly given that Ecto has not posted yet today and Coug states that he hasnt given this game a "good reread".

also jon has not really committed to anything....this is sending off huge alarms.
_________________
getting married 09/13..might be times of spotty posting till then. Will stay on top of games.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
StrangerCoug
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 May 2008
Location: El Paso, TX


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: 420 Reply with quote
Rhinox wrote:
coug wrote:
Vote: Ectomancer for defending muffinhead solely on flavor. I don't have time for a good read right now (class is in five minutes), but that's my number one suspect going into today.

I think maybe you might take a little bit of heat for doing this so rashly. Firstly, ecto didn't defend muffin solely on flavor. Ecto started defending muffin after Vi replaced in well before muffin even claimed (that is, if you consider calling the case against muffin weak as defending muffin). And secondly, if I humor the idea that Vi was killed directly in an attempt to further frame ecto, your quick vote here could be interpreted as trying to opportunisticly start that bandwagon, especially since you didn't take the time to properly justify your vote.


As I said, I had class in five minutes. That is not enough time to give a detailed case on somebody, but that is enough time to become suspicious about somebody for something. I have a life, you know.
_________________
STRANGERCOUG: Stranger Than You!

Due to college, access is somewhat limited on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the daytime although I have access to a computer at school.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page Send e-mail MSN Messenger
wolframnhart
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Location: California


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: 421 Reply with quote
jonathantan86 wrote:
Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.


Ok so here Jon admits not commiting himself but also admits that he is not "helping a bandwagon" then says the bandwagon is on Muffinhead, not Bogre. So he is fine with voting the bandwagon against Bogre, but not muffinhead? That pinged my scumdar when I re read his posts.

jonathantan86 wrote:
Unvote

Vi wrote:
*jonathantan86 needs to explain why he only posts every two-to-five days. I really don't like it, considering he misses so much. Plus--
jon 69 wrote:
Besides I don't think that we would lynch someone without discussion. Town wouldn't put the vote count so close to 7, and scum (supposing SC is town) wouldn't want to do that either because it may make them look scummy.

FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.
This in particular bothers me. You're banking that StrangerCoug is scum in order to look for other scum bussing him in this post.


I gave my reasons for thinking that SC might be scum (basically hitting at those who had been voting for him, even though there's no threat), and then extrapolating from there what might be the case.

I don't post that regularly because I'm quite busy at the moment, but I will try to do so now.

vi wrote:

jon 331 wrote:
Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.
I'm not sure you realize what you're saying. By not committing to a vote and position on who you want lynched, you're never taking a stand, but willing to do whatever won't get you in trouble. Being able to vote people and cast suspicion on them without being held responsible is the kind of ability scum players dream of. And it seems to me that there's a double-bandwagon going on - one dominant one on muffinhead, and one on Bogre/me, the alleged scumpartner.
And rest assured, at the moment Bogre needs no more pressure votes.

Make a choice. Who do you think is most worthy of a lynch right now? Vote them. If you decide someone else is more worthy of a lynch, tell why.


I think muffinhead is, but I'll wait for him to claim.

You (vi/bogre) come second, but that's only because of bogre's previous actions (and to a lesser extent muffinhead defending him). I was hoping he could defend his statements, but that's kind of impossible now.


jonathantan86 wrote:
Vi wrote:
jon 69 wrote:
FOS: StrangerCoug

Having said that, I think some mafia are on the wagon. Not because they want to see SC lynched, but because it may make them look good if SC dies and turns out to be part of the mafia.
Red flag: You're effectively assuming StrangerCoug is scum (for reasons you've already mentioned) and saying there are already other scum on the wagon to bus him. Certainly not the conventional argument.
Red flag: Yet you only FoS StrangerCoug... is this perhaps to ensure you're not on the wagon? Or are you hinting that you have a scumbuddy on the wagon?
I don't know what to say about this other than that it feels very wrong.
(BTW, the wagon at this point is MafiaMann, Cass, Ectomancer, and Rhinox.)

I FoS because I wasn't quite sure. About hinting that I have a scumbuddy on the wagon, if that were true (and if I were scum) I wouldn't have wanted to draw attention to that; I could have just put suspicion on SC.

About asking what discussion is currently revolving around, I did post what I thought after that.

Vi wrote:
jon 357 wrote:
I think muffinhead is [most worthy of a vote], but I'll wait for him to claim.
I should have asked earlier: Why do you think that?

Reasons: a spurious vote on Ectomancer and his "ignorance" of the case on bogre, and now his lurking (well, he has just come back to post).


Now here on the two Vi vs Jon posts we can see that Jon was becoming very suspicious in Vi's eyes, and was being called on it. Then Vi ends up dead. This may not seem like much, but when scum A gets lynched, and playerB who won't go near his bandwagon is being looked at hard by playerC, and then C ends up dead at night just seems too much like B getting rid of C to quiet C down. That was what I was trying to say earlier Rhinox, bu when your fiance is nagging your ear as you try to type you tend to hurry LoL. Anyways back on topic..

Vi's role could have been a power protective role, I don't know I didn't make this game. I would have hoped hat if it was a protective role something like "human shield" or "bus driver" would have been in quotes. babysitter just doesn't scream protective to me, probably was just flavor I don't know the show so i don't know if thats what Vi's char was or not. If she was protecting someone and ended up dead from it then that blows the second portion of my case against Jon out the window, but I still think the first part of my case holds true.

I'm willing to Fos Jon until he can defend against my case, and give good reason why he wouldn't go near the muffinhead wagon, but would jump on Bogre's.
_________________
Muerrto: Well, if you're scum Wolf, you don't need any lessons in sounding sincere.

@Rhinox - Deny it, but you are addled and allowing it to affect your judgement. Part of the problem is you are arguing alongside scum, which makes you feel like your statements are more valid. They aren't.

[Ectomancer]

The wall of text continues:

Rhinox
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Location: Cleveland, OH


PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: 425 Reply with quote
coug wrote:

As I said, I had class in five minutes. That is not enough time to give a detailed case on somebody, but that is enough time to become suspicious about somebody for something. I have a life, you know.


Easy there killer, I'm not questioning your other commitments. I'm saying there is a difference between expressing suspisions on someone vs. voting for someone (which may or may not be trying to start a bandwagon). IMO, at the start of the day, in your first post, if you want to vote for someone, you better back it up. The reason you gave was wrong. If you had class, what would be wrong with simply waiting until class was over to make a full post?

Also, you had time to respond to my post, yet you still haven't properly justified you vote on ecto. I know what I think about ecto right now, but I want to hear from you why you think he deserved your vote. And I don't care if you have to wait until after class to make that post. Take your time Wink We all have lives, you know.

Addendum after reread of coug's posts: This is a gem of a quote if I ever found one...
coug wrote:
Failure to explain your vote = opportunistic vote. Opportunistic vote = scummy. Scummy actions = vote on you. Therefore, failure to explain your vote = vote on you.

So everybody but you has to explain their votes?

Oh look, here's some more:
coug wrote:
For a vote not to be opportunistic in my eyes, I need the reasons or where I can get them in front of my nose when I see the vote. It's me.


Now, don't get me wrong. As I'll explain later in this post, I don't think you're commando. Predator possibly, but there's no way to tell if there is even a predator remaining right now. What I think is that it is your personallity that is slightly abrasive and just comes off scummy, and possibly sometimes you don't think before you say stuff (like with your vote today on ecto, even though it directly conflicts with your already expressed definition of an opportunistic vote). But I do agree with you... ecto is looking more and more like a good scum candidate today.

=====================================================

@ecto: In my last post I asked you to clarify what your feelings towards muffin were exactly. Maybe it was lost in translation (I do tend to ramble sometimes). All I know is at one point you explicty said you didn't believe muffin's claim, and at another point you explicitly exclaimed "he might be a cop, let him be". Is that because you thought he was scum so you knew he could be lynched later, as you seem to imply in your last post? Also...
ecto wrote:
The one situation where you miight leave a claimed cop alive is if you know they are the final scum. You can believe every innocent the give, and if they give scum and you lynch town (except in LYLO), we win.

I disagree. How do you know the scum won't claim their scum partner(s) are innocent? Yes, if you know he's the final scum, then you know everyone else is pro-town, but if you know he's the final scum, then dare I say we would just lynch him?

Unless you're talking about when you already know there is only one scum remaining and you have a cop claim. Then sure, I could see a benefit in leaving the claimed cop alive for a while unless I truly thought he was the lying scum. However, this was definately not the case with muffin, and hence not a valid reason for leaving muffin alive.

Also, compare these 3 scenarios:
1:
ecto wrote:
StrangerCoug deserves votes piled on him for that self-vote. It's not helpful and this pressure might make him think twice before doing it again. He's not going to get quicklynched by town, and if scum piles on, Huzzah! We got one or two for tomorrow...
I still say we string him up. Somebody's gotta die today, we might as well do the volunteer

2:
ecto wrote:
If we assume Clock was a day SK, he had no idea of MM's alignment. You see, I was going to go back to my case against SC, because I moved off of it due to Clock's case against MM being a better one (IMO). SC's case is still pretty good.

However.

If I'm an SK, I scum hunt. I need them dead, the sooner, the better.

To me, that means that Clock's case isn't trash to be tossed aside. I think it was an honest one.

With that assessment:

vote MafiaMann

I think the case was a good one, and though the information gained may be too WIFOMish to use, I would still like to know whether Clock was right.

3:
Quote:
ecto wrote:
Cass wrote:

Won't you feel stupid if you hammer and he turns out to be a cop? (For example, obv.) For that reason, I do ask you to wait until Muffin has been online at least (or gets replaced).

muffin wrote:

last night I targetted cass and got an innocent. But im not coming to any coclusions till I know that im sane.

Talk about this coincidence Muffinhead.
ecto wrote:
Yosarian was indeed troubled, but he always did what he thought best for town. I would consider him 'paranpoid', even when he turned out wrong.
ecto wrote:
I've argued before that the claimed cop should be lynched to save grief later.
I was scum that game.
I dont like the Yosarian/Cop pairing.
ecto wrote:
Never watched the show?Yosarian as cop makes no sense. Im not really believing the claim.
ecto wrote:
Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has strong ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.
ecto wrote:
I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

ecto wrote:
Hmm, what has been termed a terrible defense on my part is in actuality my display of the weakness of the case. Do not attack others for your failures, rather modify them, or own up to them.


In case 1, you wanted to lynch coug due to his self voting, because somebody had to die. This was a weaker reason than for lynching muffin.

In case 2, you voted to lynch MM based on the fact that clock would be legitamately scum hunting because he was an sk. The kicker is, you did this even though you 100% believed MM's claim. You said so, and used that fact to attack clock for searching for extra flavor on a townie claim. Another interesting point is that if you and clock were competing sk's, or in different scum factions, then you have just as much of a reason to try to get rid of him as he does to legitimately scum hunt. That would explain why you decided to "believe" MM's claim and attack clock - you saw a scum tell, but knew clock wasn't in your group, so you wanted to get rid of him. Then, after clock was dead, you still saw an opportunity to lynch MM even though you believed his claim.

Case 3 is obviously the muffin lynch. You argued that the case on muffin was weak, but after muffin claimed you didn't believe him. When it looked like no one was backing off, you changed and said he could be a cop and went back to claiming that the case on him was weak.

You're right, whether or not you defended muffin as your scum partner IS WIFOM, but that doesn't mean that gives you a free pass to do it without it being a legit possibility. But actually, whats more telling is that I found 2 examples of you endorsing a lynch based on weaker evidence than that on muffin, and 1 example of you endorsing a lynch of a player after a townie claim you believed. With muffin, there was a stronger case than either of the cases on coug on D1 or MM before his lynch, and muffin made a claim you did NOT believe, and yet this time, you were against the lynch. This is directly conflicting with your established play style in this game, and this is why I think you have a lot to answer for today.

======================================================

Regarding the potential bussing of muffin by at least 1 scum, I'm not sure I would definatively say there was so much momentum that a scum couldn't resist joining in. I just finished up a newbie game (I was scum) and my crappy IC scum partner basically suicided D1 because he played so badly. I never voted for him, and I went on to win the game as the sole remaining scum. So just because there is tremendous momentum on a scum lynch, that does not mean 100% that a scum partner is bussing.

However, that does not mean 100% that a scum partner is not bussing, either. That means, you're claiming that possibly at least 1 of me, coug, wolf, and ckd bussed muffin (we know it wasn't Vi). Obviously I know I didn't bus muffin. Both of wolf and coug were on muffin's wagon hard and early. After rereading, both wolf and coug were helpful in starting the momentum on muffin, not jumping on after the momentum started. So I don't think either of them were bussing (but they could be sk-predators) And CKD, its possible he bussed muffin, but he's been the best at finding scum this game. He outed clock, and he was also on muffin early for the honesty thing. Actually, all 4 of us reacted to muffin basically the same way at basically the same time. I don't think the play of wolf, coug, or CKD (or myself) even leaves open the possibility that one of them (us) were muffin's scum partner and bussed him, unless it was planned the night before.

So by process of elimination, I'm pretty confident the remaining commando(s) are in a group including ectomancer, jonathan, and cass, be it either 1 or 2 commandos remaining. If there is an SK that is simply not killing, then it really could be anybody, because like the town, they would be trying to eliminate the commandos as quickly as possible, but so they could step in and finish off the town after the commandos were gone. Although, in this game, I'm not sure that strategy would work for an sk. Rishi gave us flavor this morning that specifically the commandos came to make the kill on Vi. Presumedly, then, its either bastard modery, or if/when a predator makes a kill, it won't say it was done by the commandos. That means, later in the game if we kill off another commando, we will see if commando kills stop and predator kills fill in the void.


Sorry if my posts are getting TOO big... I have a habit of having a lot to say, and doing so with a lot of words. Let me know if its a big problem, and I'll try to make my posts more concise and to the point in the future. (In the game I just finished, large, thoughtful wall posts became not only accepted, but sort of expected... I know not everyone appreciates huge posts).

[Ectomancer]

and continues...

StrangerCoug
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 May 2008
Location: El Paso, TX


PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: 427 Reply with quote
Rhinox, if you want to sue me for making hasty generalizations of Ectomancer, then go straight ahead, but as I said, I suspect him most.
_________________
STRANGERCOUG: Stranger Than You!

Due to college, access is somewhat limited on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the daytime although I have access to a computer at school.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page Send e-mail MSN Messenger
StrangerCoug
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 May 2008
Location: El Paso, TX


PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: 428 Reply with quote
EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.
_________________
STRANGERCOUG: Stranger Than You!

Due to college, access is somewhat limited on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the daytime although I have access to a computer at school.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Rhinox
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Location: Cleveland, OH


PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: 429 Reply with quote
ok ecto... here's 3 questions/comment based on your last answer. Answer as you see fit.

1:
Quote:

I DO like Yosarian. He was my favorite. So I want him to be a good guy? Sue me.

There are 12 safe whisker names Rishi gave out in the intro post. All are "good guys" on the show, but scum use them to fake claim. Muffin wasn't Yosarian, he was Hannibal, a commando. Yosarian is still a good guy, just not present in the game aside from a safe name given to a scum. I find it suspect that you would want to believe someone based only on their name, knowing that all scum have safe names to claim with. And I'm not a big fan of just trying to brush it aside as unimportant with the "sue me" comment either...

2:
Quote:
I do think we are down to 1 scum. If that is right, every innocent result a scum cop gives has to be true. Since you dont know if he is scum or not, you can keep letting him tell you who is town. I've had it work before to narrow down targets.

I'm still not following this. Before we lynched muffin, we weren't down to just one scum. He told us Cass was innocent, maybe (hypothetically) cass is his scum partner. If we'd blindly believe that to be true, we could lose. Could you please describe how you saw things going down if muffin was a scum cop, or possibly reference the game where you've used a scum cop to narrow down targets so I can understand what you're talking about?

3:
Quote:
Dont forget, he could have been cop.

Yes, but you said you didn't believe his claim. On the contrary, you voted to lynch mafiamann despite believing his townie claim. Why, if you're town, would you vote to lynch after a claim you do believe, and would you ask us not to lynch after a claim you don't believe?

======================================================

coug wrote:
Rhinox, if you want to sue me for making hasty generalizations of Ectomancer, then go straight ahead, but as I said, I suspect him most.


Wow, another "sue me" comment... So you suspect ecto most. Great, so do I. But you voted, and the only reason you gave why was wrong. I find it a bit hypocritcal that you can go after cass for voting opportunistically and you won't act in line with your own definition of an opportunistic vote. I'm also a bit concerned that you think its a problem for me to ask you to properly justify your vote.

coug wrote:
EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.


Thanks. thats what I wanted to hear. What do you think about this in the context of not believing muffins claim, yet voting for mafiamann despite publically claiming the he did believe MM's claim?

And if you were offended by the obvious sarcasm towards you in my last post, I'm sorry, but I get a little steamed everytime someone uses the "I have a life" defense in internet games such as mafia. Because the obvious backhanded implication is that the rest of us don't have lives, even thought we're all here on the internet trying to have fun wasting time playing a game together. Don't assume you're the only person on the internet who secretely has a life away from the internet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
StrangerCoug
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 May 2008
Location: El Paso, TX


PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: 430 Reply with quote
Rhinox wrote:
coug wrote:
EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.


Thanks. thats what I wanted to hear. What do you think about this in the context of not believing muffins claim, yet voting for mafiamann despite publically claiming the he did believe MM's claim?


Voting somebody you believe makes no sense, I'll tell you that. I can't think of anything at the moment that you haven't said already, but I like this post of yours:
Rhinox wrote:
Case 3 is obviously the muffin lynch. You argued that the case on muffin was weak, but after muffin claimed you didn't believe him. When it looked like no one was backing off, you changed and said he could be a cop and went back to claiming that the case on him was weak.

You're right, whether or not you defended muffin as your scum partner IS WIFOM, but that doesn't mean that gives you a free pass to do it without it being a legit possibility. But actually, whats more telling is that I found 2 examples of you endorsing a lynch based on weaker evidence than that on muffin, and 1 example of you endorsing a lynch of a player after a townie claim you believed. With muffin, there was a stronger case than either of the cases on coug on D1 or MM before his lynch, and muffin made a claim you did NOT believe, and yet this time, you were against the lynch. This is directly conflicting with your established play style in this game, and this is why I think you have a lot to answer for today.


Basic reasonings for his votes:

StrangerCoug (that's me): I voted myself and someone has to die
MafiaMann (1st vote): ClockworkRuse has a better case on MafiaMann than he has against me (though he has me mistaken with who I think is The Pope's Tiara)
ClockworkRuse: Either he doesn't know what the town PM's look like or he's rolefishing
MafiaMann (2nd vote): As long as this post here is, it's not helping me decipher why this vote's here.
jonathan86: According to him, jonathan86 "is 'helping' along a bandwagon, yet backpedaling in the middle of doing it."

Ectomancer never voted for muffinhead.
_________________
STRANGERCOUG: Stranger Than You!

Due to college, access is somewhat limited on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the daytime although I have access to a computer at school.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page Send e-mail MSN Messenger
wolframnhart
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Location: California


PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: 431 Reply with quote
Ectomancer wrote:
It's a pretty good case, but Im afraid that I really cant reply to a wall of text like that. Some things, of course are indefensible. You tend to waffle when town and you arent exactly you arent sure what you are doing. It happens.
A few things. I asked people to re-explain their cases after they decided Vi/Bogre was ok. It's not an unreasonable request. Later I did ask to keep him around for the following reasons.
2: I DO like Yosarian. He was my favorite. So I want him to be a good guy? Sue me.
3: I do think we are down to 1 scum. If that is right, every innocent result a scum cop gives has to be true. Since you dont know if he is scum or not, you can keep letting him tell you who is town. I've had it work before to narrow down targets.
4: Dont forget, he could have been cop.

Anyhow, line up anything else in sizable chunks. I can reply, but not to entire chapters.


I really am not liking this post for a couple of reasons:
1)To say that you want someone to be a good guy just because you like their character is not very helpful to the town, after all didn't Doopey turn out to be mafia godfather in a game? (Can't remember if that was said in this game or another i am in). If everyone said "Aww Doppey is so cute and stupid no way could he be town" that wouldn't help a bit.
2)Saying sue me seems a lil defensive.
3)I went along with a person that ended up being scum, regular scum not scum cop, because they claimed cop. Had we followed blindly (which we did until LYLO) we would have lost, and to have alot of innocent people killed just to narrow suspects doesn't really help anything.
4)Yes, he could have been a cop, but his attitude and posting didn't seem cop-like. The fact that he claimed cop after Cass said "what if he is" then claiming Cass innocent was just way too fishy to have been believed anyways.
_________________
Muerrto: Well, if you're scum Wolf, you don't need any lessons in sounding sincere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
jonathantan86
Goon





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 08 Jan 2007



PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: 432 Reply with quote
wolframnhart wrote:
jonathantan86 wrote:
Yes I'm not committing myself---my reasons for putting this vote is similar to those who have put the vote on me in Day 1. The second statement is true, but I don't see what's wrong with that. Also, I'm not helping a bandwagon---the bandwagon is on muffinhead, not bogre.


Ok so here Jon admits not commiting himself but also admits that he is not "helping a bandwagon" then says the bandwagon is on Muffinhead, not Bogre. So he is fine with voting the bandwagon against Bogre, but not muffinhead? That pinged my scumdar when I re read his posts.


I still think that the votes on bogre at that time do not constitute a bandwagon.

wolframnhart wrote:
Now here on the two Vi vs Jon posts we can see that Jon was becoming very suspicious in Vi's eyes, and was being called on it. Then Vi ends up dead. This may not seem like much, but when scum A gets lynched, and playerB who won't go near his bandwagon is being looked at hard by playerC, and then C ends up dead at night just seems too much like B getting rid of C to quiet C down. That was what I was trying to say earlier Rhinox, bu when your fiance is nagging your ear as you try to type you tend to hurry LoL. Anyways back on topic..

Vi's role could have been a power protective role, I don't know I didn't make this game. I would have hoped hat if it was a protective role something like "human shield" or "bus driver" would have been in quotes. babysitter just doesn't scream protective to me, probably was just flavor I don't know the show so i don't know if thats what Vi's char was or not. If she was protecting someone and ended up dead from it then that blows the second portion of my case against Jon out the window, but I still think the first part of my case holds true.


Firstly, as you said, if vi's role was a bodyguard-like role, this part is not a case. If I remember correctly, vi was suspicious of other people too, not just me. So why point fingers at me straight away? Even if vi was suspicious of me the most, someone might have tried to frame me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's wiki page
wolframnhart
Mafia Scum





Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Location: California


PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: 433 Reply with quote
Reason I was looking at you first before the other people Jon is because as I sated, you have not really contributed to the game much, just kind of sat back and watched. Also the fact that as i already stated, you wouldn't touch the muffinhead wagon, but were all aboard the Bogre voting. You are right about one thing though, it wasn't much of a wagon when you voted, in fact after I looked at when you did vote it was just Cass because I had already unvoted Bogre. You then voted to "put pressure" on Bogre which makes no sense if there was only one person on Bogre at that time. All you have been doing this entire game is play it safe and in a small way stay under the radar. If you aren't commando I can see you being a SK role and seeing how your SK partner got killed you are trying to survive till the end.
_________________
Muerrto: Well, if you're scum Wolf, you don't need any lessons in sounding sincere.

And you still dont think I had a lot of crap to respond to? You still want to harp over 1 missed item? Give me a break. You dont want answers. Right now you want a gang bang.

[Ectomancer]

ECTO QUIT AVOIDING QUESTIONS

you STILL didnt answer the question ecto (this is the 3rd time I am asking it)..

did you READ the wall of texts or not...please quit avoiding the question...if you did, why did you not respond as you read?..that is typically how it is done here on mafia, you have been around for awhile so you should know that.

Also, do you think walls of text are scummy?...and before you answer, know that I am king of meta.

also, claim.

You deal with your time constraints, I'll deal with mine. If I have a certain amount of time, which isn't unusual, I'll respond to smaller requests. Walls of text? No, I almost never respond PbP, though I do read them. I'll post what I think is most important to be said,

keeping things concise and clear

which walls of text rarely do.
Are walls of text scummy? If you are such the King of Meta, then you know good and well that walls of text are one of my favorite devices for creating confusion as scum AND has been stated so in games I've played on this site. You are welcome to spend your time finding one.

[Ectomancer]

Also, your request for a claim has been noted.

[Ectomancer]

Let me ask a fundamental question, and answer honestly to yourself. I was the one who nailed Clockwork, after just supporting him. I did this on a scum tell. I believe this is what forced him to make his daykill when he did. There may be convolutions that can be discussed over bussing (even though I believe he is an SK and no bussing possible), or I am scum, found a different group of scum and went after them simply to look good.
I found scum because I am scum hunting. Ask yourself, was that person a townie scum hunting, or scum that just got lucky and took out a rival? Which is more likely?
Does anyone disagree with that scenario?

[Ectomancer]

Right here Rhinox. As you can see, it is easy to miss items in the middle of a bunch of text.

@Ectomancer: Surely flavor is not the only reason you want muffinhead alive.

I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

A clear indication that I was still putting thought to our situation. Did CKD ask if I had figured it out? No. Perhaps he missed it? I could buy that excuse, though it isn't one he has given. Was there a question mark at the end of my statement? Did I ask someone specifically what they thought about it? No. It is obvious however that I for one had not given up on what we could do yesterday other than simply lynch Muffin.

CKD - IM the one who pounded Clock over his repeated requests for flavor. It was after I made those statements that he paniced and made his daykill.

Oh yes, the "you're quoting things that weren't about you". Are you seriously to limit my scope of this game to only what is written about me? It isn't bending facts to fit my argument, its a fact that there was ALOT of material and indeed, ALOT of it was about me or indirectly related.


@CKD - you are horrid at verbal traps. I stated specifically that walls of text are a device used by scum to create confusion. It doesnt mean that EVERY large post is scummy, so pulling out one of mine that is larger just shows the depths to which you are willing to stoop to try to get a lynch on me.

Do you suppose claims are supposed to just leap forward anytime you ask for one CKD? You rate high on the scum meter for me, so it will take just a bit more than you to get any flavor or claim from me.

[Ectomancer]

Why are you playing stupid games?
I remarked about missing things in walls of text.
YOU asked whether they were scummy or not.
I explained that I have stated Mr. META, that walls of text are a great scum tactic.
You did not ask, NOR did I say that Rhino's large post was scummy.
When Muffin was asked to claim, I said then that he shouldnt be lynched, but he should go ahead and claim.

Top suspect is you. Your recent method of trying to build a case is a primary reason. There is no need for town to continuously try to lay words traps or harangue over semantics.

2nd is one to look at. Now that Muffin came up scum, whoever brought up that Bogre/Muffin scum pair, plus Vi are in the spotlight.

[Ectomancer]

Do you suppose claims are supposed to just leap forward anytime you ask for one CKD?

Let's put it this way: You're at lynch minus one. Claiming is the only chance you'll have of living at this point.

Why would it be the only chance? Why would the discussion not weigh in your decision?

[Ectomancer]

The last time I checked, the least dangerous person to lynch other than scum is a vanilla. Town would rather keep its cop, doc, tracker, whatever. By not claiming, you come off as having something to hide that town perhaps shouldn't know.

It is the discussion and evidence that should be weighed in a lynch, and though a claim is part of it, it is CERTAINLY not a persons 'only' chance of not being lynched.
Your post is odd in that you seem to not think that I am not scum, but am only wanting to determine whether I am vanilla so that you can lynch safely? Does that mean you are so convinced I will be lynched, that you wont even give your own opinion in the matter? You sound as though even if you feel there is an available defense for me, the lynch is so inevitable you have no desire to voice opposition or support for it.

[Ectomancer]

Have fun all. I've requested a replacement after getting a warning for spamming the thread. If I'm not allowed to defend myself, however many posts or quotes it takes, then there is little point bothering to play the game.

[Ectomancer]

Rishi apparently had a problem with my quoting the 'wall of text' and when I read that I was being asked not to spam, I overreacted. I'll be staying on long enough for you to lynch me and spare Rishi finding a replacement. My apologies to the mod for the drama.

[Ectomancer]

Rishi apparently had a problem with my quoting the 'wall of text' and when I read that I was being asked not to spam, I overreacted. I'll be staying on long enough for you to lynch me and spare Rishi finding a replacement. My apologies to the mod for the drama.

I hate this kind of posting, jut giving up, rolling over and dying. Makes my fingers itch to pick up that hammer. Ecto, if you're town, at least claim. I won't ask again, if you still refuse I'll assume you don't have a saving claim and act accordingly.

I'm not quoting the mod PM, or my subsequent response. I take it rather personal that you claim I wanted to give up and die. That is in fact the OPPOSITE problem I had whereby I felt the mod was restricting my ability to play the game. If that's the case, I didn't want to play a game where my hands are arbitrarily tied.

Flower.

[Ectomancer]

I'll respond when I get a chance Rhino.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, I'll deal with your wall of text, you'll have to deal with my partial, drawn out over several post responses.

First of all, my primary push has been to defend myself, while pushing a case on CKD. Reading your first paragraph, I can see that is indeed a point towards a town CKD. I do not know why, or like how you are placing a lynch at the feet of one of the two of us automatically.

Scum do sometimes arrange to bus, sometimes they dont work together at all, it depends upon the scum.

The "to be honest" statement had nothing to do with the scum tell that caused me to vote him, you can go back and find that easily enough.
I felt the "to be honest" is a null tell and the fact he turned up scum after it is sheer coincidence. That's my feeling.
The scum tell that is

not

a null tell was his continuous push for more flavor on the vanilla claim. I said then that Clock was scum pushing for more flavor to help him with his claim later. That was when I said I had him, illustrated this continuous push and soon after that he used his daykill.
All of this had nothing to do with the "to be honest" statement.

CKD 311, page 13: CKD keeps his vote on muffin and starts to question jonathan. Another big hurdle - This seems like good scum hunting to me. Not stopping searching for informaition even after CKD placed his vote. If CKD wanted to bus muffin, why even bother providing possible other options in jonathan at this point?

Another point in CKD's favor.

Ecto 315 regarding muffin's utility lynch potential:
Quote:
Of course we lose something. This is a game of numbers, and any that we lose from our column is a bad deal for us.
This is important because its my basis for not believing there is ever a good reason to leave someone alive once you think they're scum.

There is a difference between

knowing

someone is scum and

thinking

someone is scum. If you arent sure, but you have a way to use them regardless of alignment, then you use it. It's done often enough when someone claims vig, but you think they might be SK. You might ask them to hit a claimed bomb. anyhow..


[/quote]I've read in mafia discussion in the last week or so that in mini normal games, a "standard" setup is 3 scum and 1 sk. Even in a theme game, where the setups are expected to be anything but normal, I now have a hard time believing there would be any less than 4 total scum. This is more speculation than solid evidence, but why would ecto want us to think there were only 3 total scum? [/quote]

This is news to me. I ran a game with only 2 scum in a group of 12.


More good points about CKD.

unvote

Ecto 347: claims he's not defending muffin, simply asking others to re-evaluate their cases.

Doesn't think muffin needs to claim,

and wants CKD to give a brief summary of muffin's case without any influence about bogre.

Bolded part is wrong. Below is what I said.

I didn't say he shouldn't claim.

ecto 360: ecto half-answers Vi's question. Ecto expresses we have no choice but to wait for muffin's claim, although he feels that he's demonstrated the case on muffin is not enough to warrent that situation. Calls again for people to justify their positions on muffin (despite the fact that most (Me, Vi, and CKD) of us already had), and doesn't provide an alternative to muffin at this point.

The guy was at L-1....people were foaming at the mouth to lynch him before a claim. We didnt even know if he needed replacing at that time. I dont lynch in that situation, and neither should anyone else. Calling for patience was exactly the right move.


From there you start wandering, but mostly making sure you point out an Ecto-CKD pairing. That's crappy play, you know that? False dichotomy I think its called?

Mostly what Ecto has been doing is trying to defend his own actions.

Anyhow, back to work.

[Ectomancer]

About Jonathan: He didn't hammer me when he could have. Either timid scum or inactive town. Of course to me he looks more like inactive town.

regarding the setup, considering newbie games have 2 scum in a group of 9, 2 scum in a group of 12 seems favored in the towns favor, unless its an all vanilla/goon setup. I think in 10 vanilla-2 goon setup, that has never been won by the town on this site? someone correct me if I'm wrong...

I didn't, and still dont quite get this part. I believe I said we should worry more about 2 scum 1 sk than with 2 scum 2 Sk or something like that. You were wondering why I didnt think we would have 4 scum in a group of 12, right? Well, you explain it a bit here. Regardless of whether you call them scum or sk, a bad guy against the town is a bad guy. If a 8 vanilla - 2 goon setup has never been won by town, it stands to follow that an 8 town - 4 bad guy setup would be even harder, even with power roles thrown in, and even if they work against each other. I dont think my statement that we are more likely to have 3 bad guys in a 12 player game, rather than 4 bad guys in a 12 player game was a bad opinion personally.
I believe the reason I brought it up was because someone brought up trying to link 'predators' together. That would either mean 2 groups of 2 bad guys, or a commando would be a sole SK out there. Not saying the mod wouldn't put in 1 commando and 2 predators to throw us off, but at the time, I thought that trying to find the "buddy" of who most likely was a sole SK wasnt a good path for us.

[Ectomancer]

Also confirming that I am Flower without elaboration.

[Ectomancer]

Welp, if Jonathan is telling the truth, and I see no reason why he isn't, then the game should be fairly easily winnable if we assume that we now have 3 confirmed town. Rhinox and CKD (after Rhinox's long posts) don't seem to be the scum to me. The presumptive move would be scum kills cop. In the final day, it should be 1 confirmed townie (either myself or Cass), deciding between 2 unknowns, and that's only if we guess wrong the first 2 times.

I'm good with lynching StrangerCoug today. Go back and read my claim by the way. I said I was Flower

with no elaboration

. Not Vanilla.

/snickerdoodle

[Ectomancer]

As I pointed out, we have the luxury of being wrong and will still be in good position. I'd like to talk more first. I actually liked SC's last post. I'll say this though, make some eulogy replies, because I think lynching Wolf and SC is (IMO) the best path, with 1 in 3 chance of going to a last day with 1 confirmed townie deciding between 2 unconfirmed.
This does of course assume the cop claim is true. I dont see anything persuading me otherwise on that point though.

[Ectomancer]

My condolences CKD

[Ectomancer]

If anyone wants me to claim, say so. I've no big problem with it, but see no need to either. (And would prefer not to if you people don't mind.)

If you don't want to claim, then don't do so.

Im believing Jonathan's claim, making you innocent. Dont claim. Scum doesnt need more information than they have.

Wolf, you said you believed the claim, but then you made some statement like "we will find out soon enough", and you are still voting Jonathan.
Whats up?

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: My first statement was directed to Cass, not SC. And did SC claim yet? I saw Wolf's. If not, I'd like one.

[Ectomancer]

I think your right Rhinox, it's pretty much sealed. Either Jonathan will be killed tonight, confirming his claim, or he will be spared and have another "investigation" result. That result will either point to scum, or clear another town member. If guilty, we lynch the investigation target and either win the game, or lynch Jonathan the next day if the lynch turns up town and win the game.
Any holes?

[Ectomancer]

Well, we still have tomorrow to make a course correction. Let's lynch StrangerCoug and then see who is killed tonight if the game continues. It will either be Jonathan or not. I'm not going to lay out what I would like to do if Jonathan dies tonight or not. I'd prefer not to give the killer any information about what my inclinations would be until after the kill is made.

vote strangercoug

[Ectomancer]

hmmm... since Rishi is out until sunday, I see no reason to rush my vote. I think conversation before twilight is better than conversation during twilight.

Agreed.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

We'll wait.

[Ectomancer]

On the possibility of Jon being scum: If he is, and there is only 1 scum, he faked too early and will die for it.
Im pretty sure everyone claimed. Based upon that, Im assuming a game distribution of
8 vanilla town
1 cop
2 scum
1 DaySK

However, I'll concede that it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility for it to be
8 vanilla
3 scum
1 daySK

I haven't researched this mod. Perhaps we should? That would be a better measuring stick than my own personal bias for what constitutes a balanced game.

[Ectomancer]

Rishi is currently modding a newbie game. Without going and trying to find any other games, my assumption would be that a mod with that type of experience with game balance would be more likely to choose the first role distribution.

[Ectomancer]

Hrmmm...

You've got some valid points and I completely whiffed on the town side of the setup.

I insinuated a power role myself. What do you think about it?
Do you think I was trying to mislead the town by saying 8 vanilla?

Investigation immunity is one possibility, but would tilt the totter even more scums direction, and the same goes for a mafia roleblocker.

A bomb could be the balance for an SK.

Babysitter could be anything, but I think a Doc type role may have been likely, however, if Doc, it looks like it either would have been a weakened Doc since the SK killed during the day, unless he got to pick a target to protect both during the day, and at night. Vi only knows at his point, and of course had no chance to reveal the mechanics of the role.

Ok, if we figure bomb as balance for SK, plus the fact that mafia could kill the SK as additional balance, that would still leave us 8 town members with 3 scum. Possibly a Doc plus 7 other town members, of which 1 is a bomb, and 2 you have questioned whether or not they are vanilla and we also have a cop claim. The SK in some ways counts as a town member when it comes to avoiding a scum win.

I withdraw from my current stance on who to lynch today. Unfortunately for me, the game balance question was what solidified Jonathon's claim. I think that, even should no more power roles be revealed, that cop/doc/bomb-SK-3 scum is a setup that can reasonably be expected to be considered balanced by someone (not saying that someone would be me).

[Ectomancer]

Hrmm.

It may be two complete scum groups of two also, and no SK's.

I think that we can assume a balanced setup without us doing a full reveal mass claim.

[Ectomancer]

On the Godfather thing. I really don't see how any Meerkat other than Hannibal would be that role, and he is dead.

[Ectomancer]

I believe that you have convinced me that B is a strong possibility.

[Ectomancer]

Set-up speculation: if I had to guess, I'd say
- 2 more commandoes, 60% chance
- 1 comm + 1 sk (or some weird other type of scum), 30% chance
- 1 commando, 10% chance

I alo belive in assuming the worst case scenario, just to be safe. I think wolf is a commando, and if he isn't, SC would be one. I think the second scum is among SC, Ecto (GF) and CKD. So, from my point of view, lynching Wolf gives a better than 50% chance of hitting scum. I prefer that over a policy lynch.

Your breakdown makes it seem like SC would be among either scum group. Why would Wolf give a better than 50% chance of hitting scum?

[Ectomancer]

I was wondering around thinking about the setup and possible roles left, and, in the case of having an SK and Commando left, it appears to me that the SK cannot use their Daykill today or tomorrow (or anytime I think)

until

they help the town kill the scum. If you dont believe me, check the math yourself. (I could be wrong, but dont think so)

So.

My suggestion is that today we do not lynch a case today that is built off of being a predator, simply because they

have

to help us catch scum before time runs out.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty. Holding off my vote till you chime in ckd.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, I don’t think I understand your SK theory (have to help kill a town first)…wasn’t someone killed Day 1 by a SK?

Well, you didn't phrase it properly, so Im not suprised you didn't understand. It goes like this: An SK has to help kill scum first. If the SK doesn't do this by

lynch

, if he shoots for scum and hits town instead, he likely just cost himself the game. After scum is dead, if the SK is still around, then they can kill again. It's in the math.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, but didnt a SK make a kill before anyone died(Day 1)?...still confused.

Just take my word for it. Scum will kill SK in endgame if SK kills town either today or tomorrow.

[Ectomancer]

I think 2 commandos (1 being a godfather) makes a lot of sense in the setup. I think Cass could possibly be the godfather. However, ecto brings up a good point that hannibal should have been the commando godfather. Upon a recent read of the wiki, I think that is incorrect. Meerkat tribes are matriarcal. Just as Flower is (was) the dominant female and leader of the whiskers, the commandoes also have a dominant female.

Going back to the wiki, I found that the dominant female of the commandoes is Nikita. I believe if there is a commando godfather, THAT is who it should be.

I went back and read the wiki as well. Apparently I only watched the first couple of seasons, and Hannibal was considered the Commando leader at that time, despite not being a female.

wiki:
Hannibal Commando is the one-eyed, former dominant male of the The Vivian Mob. He is known as one of the most vicios meerkats on the Kalahari. As leader of one of the successful Mobs on the manor, he is no stranger to conflict.

It would be a bit odd to me to have Hannibal (who died between seasons 3 and 4) and Flower (who died a year and a half ago, my family was quite upset) along with Meerkats who only came to recent prominence.

Still, I have to admit that the flavor does not clear me here, as who knows how the mod constructed the roles in the game.

[Ectomancer]

Well, if I was a commando, then I would

have

to be a GF unless Jonathan and I are scum buddies, right? You do realize that the same argument could apply to you as well? It's a nice cloud of suspicion cast here with this. We can't even kill Jonathan and reliably trust either one of us if we chase a GF spectre. My gut tells me that there isn't one based upon the game balance review we did. But my gut doesn't count in this case does it?
The bottom line is, there is no good move based upon the claim of Jonathan because there is always a what if, and the

worst

what if of all is if we attempt to act on it by lynching one of us and all 3 of us are telling the truth. I say worst because unless one of us is scum and we pick the right one, we learn nothing from the lynch except we were wrong about that person, and that person only.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty, let's see what the night brings us shall we? I think it's going to be a tough kill decision for scum, depending upon who they are.

I know you wanted SC today CKD, but Wolf is just as good a choice.

vote Wolframnhart