Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and /confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: StrangerCoug
Major HoS: Everyone else

Because I can

[StrangerCoug]

We just happened to post 13 seconds apart, so... yeah xD

[StrangerCoug]

@Strangercoug: do you really think everyone, including yourself, is scum? Your post seems to indicate you do... Can you explain your case on us?

It's called sparking discussion. It's also called digging for reactions.

Unvote: StrangerCoug
Vote: MafiaMann

for putting the third vote on me in random voting stage, which is something I frown upon.

Un-HoS: Everybody else

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: MafiaMann

for putting the third vote on me in a random voting stage, which is something I frown upon.

Do you frown upon the fact he put a third vote on you? Or do you frown upon anyone putting a third vote on someone in the random voting stage?

The latter. In a large game, I don't mind, but in a mini game I find that pushing "random".

[StrangerCoug]

Heh, indeedy... did you think mine was a serious question? Why?

My voting myself wasn't serious, so that depends on if you knew. My sense of humor sucks ><

[StrangerCoug]

I do not think a third vote indicates scum. Especially as you put the first vote on yourself.

This is not true. I put the second, not the first, vote on myself.

[StrangerCoug]

Wow. I missed the whole second page. The question here is who is trying to be the VoA with all this experience talk.

What's VoA?

[StrangerCoug]

Still, you can hardly count his as the third vote. You could unvote yourself any time. Besides, three votes isn't any danger with twelve players, so I do not find that at all scummy.

It's nothing major, but I don't like one person having ¼ of the votes until after random stage ends, which is why I brought it to the town's attention.

Unvote: MafiaMann
Vote: Cass

because I find making a big deal about a self-vote in the random voting stage to be a rather weak case.

[StrangerCoug]

Also @StrangerCoug - why on earth would you want people to start jumping off of wagons before it produces any kind of results? What do you think wagons are for? Especially in the random stage? If you dont have anything to go on, you just grab someone out of the crowd by the neck and say "start talking or Im gonna smash you!", enough people gather around and says 'Yeah!" and they start talking. If you like what they say, you let'em go, if you don't, you throw'em against the fence with some other suspects that you get roughly the same way, then lynch one of them.

Information, but so was the self-vote. In the random voting stage, you can get away with voting for the lamest reason ever—or even no reason. Voting myself and HoS'ing everybody in random voting was for an admittedly very lame reason: "because I can", and that's just about why I really did it.

Just because you grabbed yourself around the neck doesn't mean you weren't a good choice. I saw that trick in Blazing Saddles. The Sheriff was gonna get lynched until he grabbed himself by his own collar, put his own gun to his head and threatened to blow his own head off if everyone didn't back off. Well, the town backed off and the Sheriff didn't get lynched.
That's basically what you did isn't it StrangerCoug? The town always seems to let the self-voter go. Not me. I think you belong against the fence whilst we figure out who gets the rope today.

vote StrangerCoug

I do not understand how this part of your post applies in the context of this situation. First off, unless you have a bunch of mindless players, the random voting stage isn't going to get anybody killed, which is why I panicked at the third random vote on me (I count myself because a vote is a vote). Second, my self-vote wasn't serious and I had the intent to remove it eventually, as in the long run it's not of any help. Third (and this is actually an extension of "second", but whatever), I don't remember making a post in this game where I really meant to get myself killed if people didn't get off my wagon.

FoS: Ectomancer

unvote, vote: strangercoug

...

...because ecto's previous post was the best explanation I've ever seen for why a random stage self-voter needs to be pressured.

This is awfully opportunistic for putting me at lynch -3, don't you think?

Unvote: Cass
Vote: Rhinox

[StrangerCoug]

If the random voting stage isn't going to get anyone killed, why do you panic at the third vote?

How many damn times do I have to say that I don't like the idea of anybody having ¼ of the votes in RV?

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Sorry about the messed-up tags. It's supposed to be a single quote without another quote inside it, by jonathantan86.

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug deserves votes piled on him for that self-vote. It's not helpful and this pressure might make him think twice before doing it again. He's not going to get quicklynched by town, and if scum piles on, Huzzah! We got one or two for tomorrow...
I still say we string him up. Somebody's gotta die today, we might as well do the volunteer

Your reducing yourself to advocating my mislynch is heavily noted, and the FoS I have out for you is hereby upgraded to a

Major HoS: Ectomancer

. Seriously, if I have reacted to the current situation in a scummy manner, then please point that out and bring it to my attention, but dying over disagreements as to what is and is not acceptable in the random voting stage does not make any sense.

[StrangerCoug]

Muffinhead gives me a bad vibe for some reason. I don't like his meta-defense of stranger.

Why not?

[StrangerCoug]

Well, ClockworkRuse, I certainly didn't want a good part of the town at my throat, that's for sure. I did, however, want a gauge as to how many people and which ones had the WIFOMish thinking of "only scum would vote themselves". Right now Ectomancer fits this state of mind best, and my voting Rhinox is for putting me at an opportunistic L-3 based on Ectomancer's reasoning.

I find it very interesting that Ectomancer doesn't care about scum jumping on my wagon or my getting lynched for the sole reasons of my self-vote and "

omebody's gotta die today". I do intend a vote switch if I don't get a believable defense for this; however, I don't want to clear Rhinox of my suspicion just yet.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, ClockworkRuse, I certainly didn't want a good part of the town at my throat, that's for sure. I did, however, want a gauge as to how many people and which ones had the WIFOMish thinking of "only scum would vote themselves". Right now Ectomancer fits this state of mind best, and my voting Rhinox is for putting me at an opportunistic L-3 based on Ectomancer's reasoning.

I find it very interesting that Ectomancer doesn't care about scum jumping on my wagon or my getting lynched for the sole reasons of my self-vote and "

omebody's gotta die today". I do intend a vote switch if I don't get a believable defense for this; however, I don't want to clear Rhinox of my suspicion just yet.

Well now this argument is flat out wrong. It is StrangerCoug's stance that seems to imply that only a townie would vote for themselves, thereby creating a WIFOM situation for some sap to fall into.
It is

my

assertion that StrangerCoug noticed the propensity for town

not

to lynch a self-voter and planned to use it to get off the chopping block today. It is a quick way to derail a wagon. Then when asked they simply respond, "Oh well I was just looking for responses to it, and here they are! Tada!"

If the lynch also fulfills a meta-game goal, even better. Don't vote for yourself! It's a crappy, scummy thing to do even if town. You do something like this as town, then it becomes accepted that town does it, and then scum can hide in it. (Which is exactly what I'm saying you are doing)

For the last time, I intended to get my self-vote off once I had at least a half-decent idea of scum. I wasn't expecting to be right, and granted, the chances of a third random vote on the same person is awfully low, but it is a step out of random voting that I will take.

In addition, you have twisted my believing that "only scum would vote themselves" is wrong into my believing instead that "only town would vote themselves", which is also wrong and is something I never said or implied. I know for a fact that both are logical fallacies, and I can't figure out how you took my disbelief of the one as a belief of its equally illogical opposite. Self-votes in the random voting stage are null-tells, which is the point I'm trying to bring across.

In case it gets brought up, if I were legitimately advocating my own lynch, then it's something I've seen both scum and town do. Granted, it's scummy; however, I've seen more town than scum do it.

Yes, I am trying to derail my own wagon. That's because I don't like the speed of the wagon and it's over one or two ultimately trivial acts on page 2. Are you supposed to shut up when you're wagoned? I don't think so.

And let me bring up the post I'm most concerned about again, and let me cut it to the part of concern this time:

He's not going to get quicklynched by town, and if scum piles on, Huzzah! We got one or two for tomorrow...
I still say we string him up.

This makes zero sense to me from the point of view of a townie. If town is not going to quicklynch me, then why don't you care about scum on my wagon, and if you do happen to care about scum on my wagon, then why is your vote still out on me?

Keep this in mind, Ectomancer: I now find you more suspicious than Rhinox. In my eyes, Rhinox is guilty only of opportunistic voting. You, on the other hand, are guilty of taking posts out of context, tunnel vision, and misrepresentation. As I said, I am intent on a vote switch if I don't see a believable defense out of you.

[StrangerCoug]

Ectomancer had weak reasons to vote Strangercoug.

Admittedly selfvoting is idiotic but its a null tell, really.

Thank you. Somebody understands my case.

Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

I don't consider conservative play like this scummy per se.

[StrangerCoug]

FoS: MafiaMann

for panicking over a legitimate question.

[StrangerCoug]

I said I'd do this with the lack of a believable defense...

Unvote: Rhinox
FoS: Rhinox

because I still think his opportunistic vote is scummy.

Vote: Ectomancer

Stop ignoring my concern of you about post #74. I asked you a question and I don't see an answer. This is now added to your list of offenses at the end of post #93.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh my, the guy I have been attacking has placed a vote on me. Im shocked, shocked I'm telling ya.

Please don't tell me my threat of doing so just whizzed by you like that. I have given you more than enough time to explain one post—

just one post

—from a townie perspective and you have yet to do me even that small favor. Do you really, genuinely think I am scummy for my actions, or are you just picking the easiest target you can and then daydreaming afterwards? I remember saying not once, but TWICE, that #107 would happen upon failure of a specific condition, and this comes off to me that you've only realized this just now.

Are you upset that your attempts to get away with being "the townie who voted himself" are being questioned? Crappy play deserves to be rewarded with a vote

even if the only possible effect ends up being a meta deterrent

.

Intentionally sparking discussion ≠ crappy play. Try again.

Your self-vote doesn't make you town, nor did it advance the game in any logical manner.

Neither does it make me scum. Controversial move, yes, but you've made mountains out of molehills here.

Quit trying to defend a bad play with the weak excuse of "I was trying to get reactions". Well, you got a reaction Pal, let's see how you handle it.

Quit arguing over one random vote and actually talk about something meaningful. The vote on myself was a joke, and the vote on you is serious. Let's see how you handle

that

.

[StrangerCoug]

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

No, but it's certainly the current center of attention. I'm trying to get discussion revolving around Ectomancer's motives, as he's completely ignored my attacking one of his posts and hasn't answered my question about it yet.

What do you have to say?

[StrangerCoug]

First off, unless you have a bunch of mindless players, the random voting stage isn't going to get anybody killed, which is why I panicked at the third random vote on me (I count myself because a vote is a vote).

*blows whistle* The minute you placed a vote on yourself, any further vote on you was no longer random.

Granted, this can be argued. However, MafiaMann's given reason for voting me was that he can't spell ClockworkRuse's name, and it's been argued back that he could have just shortened it to "clock". When do you learn how to spell that? Second grade? Third at the latest?

This is awfully opportunistic for putting me at lynch -3, don't you think?

No I don't think, but I'll argue semantics with you nonetheless. You say I'm being opportunistic, but I say you're being opportunistic by attacking everyone who voted for you "because you self-voted". Its not as if I just opportunisticly jumped on the wagon without just cause. Read posts 53, 54, 55... I was just about ready to vote you in post 53, but I waited. Then Ecto made an excellent post that I agreed with and decided to add more pressure witha vote in post 55. Then you panicked.

No sense calling the pot white and the kettle black, and I feel this is an adequate defense of your vote, so

un-FoS: Rhinox

.

To reiterate what I said earlier in the thread (maybe you'll understand now) - self voting is not a pro-town move. You say it is a null-tell, I think its slightly more a scum-tell, but we both agree, not pro-town. If you are a townie, you've just forced the conversation to be mostly about you for the first 5 pages - a distraction from actually finding scum. Not only that, you think that everyone who is voting for you is scummy and opportunistic - why? you ended the random stage by self voting, you deserve the pressure. You say you were judging for reactions, but the only 2 possible reactions are basically "eh" or "die scum"... how can you determine anything from that? you can't.

Hooray for my getting more than I bargained for >< Note to self: Watch it next time.

I still say we string him up. Somebody's gotta die today, we might as well do the volunteer

Whoa there buddy. No one's talking about seriously lynching anybody yet. Its way too early in the day for bloodshed. Long days help the town - of course you would know that since you're our most experienced player

FOS Ecto

Yay. I'm not the only person going after this guy anymore.

Seriously, if I have reacted to the current situation in a scummy manner, then please point that out and bring it to my attention, but dying over disagreements as to what is and is not acceptable in the random voting stage does not make any sense.

The scummy reaction is that you assume everyone voting for you because of the self vote is scum. Also, if dying over disagreements as to what is and is not acceptable in the random stage does not make any sense, then you should have never voted for me. I made it perfectly clear that I'm principally against self-voting. You disagree with my oppinion. You voted for me. Hence, you voted for me because you disagreed with what I thought was unacceptable in the random stage, and you justified it with calling me opportunistic.

Are you arguing that I'm being hypocritical here? This is what I'm getting from this part of your post.

I did, however, want a gauge as to how many people and which ones had the WIFOMish thinking of "only scum would vote themselves". Right now Ectomancer fits this state of mind best, and my voting Rhinox is for putting me at an opportunistic L-3 based on Ectomancer's reasoning.

Just because I used Ecto's post to support my vote doesn't mean I was basing my vote on Ecto's reasoning. Again, refer to posts 53-55, and my first post where I express my concerns about self voting and not voting. Just because Ecto and I have the same oppinions of self voting doesn't mean we're working together, and it doesn't mean I'm piggybacking off of his idea.

Note to self: It isn't pro-town to act in the heat of the moment ><

For the last time, I intended to get my self-vote off once I had at least a half-decent idea of scum.

How did you expect to get an idea of who was scum based on reactions to your self vote?

Again, I wanted to see who would try to justify voting me by WIFOM.

Self-votes in the random voting stage are null-tells, which is the point I'm trying to bring across.

If you really think its a null-tell, then the reactions to it are also null-tells. The point I'm trying to make is that a townie self voting focuses the discussion where it need not be focused - on the townie and the semantics of self-voting. That is why I feel A PRO-TOWN PLAYER HAS NO BUSINESS EVER SELF-VOTING IN THE RANDOM VOTING STAGE.

Ectomancer had weak reasons to vote Strangercoug.

Admittedly selfvoting is idiotic but its a null tell, really.

Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

This post screams to me as facade of activity without providing any content...

Bogre wrote:
Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

I don't consider conservative play like this scummy per se.

Its not conservative play, its denying the town its best weapon early in the game - the power of votes. Imagine if all 12 of us said in our first post: "I'm not going to vote because random votes don't mean anything and I don't find anyone scummy" How would the game get started? How would the town ever get any information? Thats why not voting is scummy. IMO, self-voting is exactly the same thing as not voting.

I interpreted Bogre's post as MafiaMann's not having a vote out at that point in time. I do get the picture of everybody refusing to random vote: just sitting there isn't going to advance the game. Although I see most of your point in self-voting and not voting in RVS being the same, then unless I misunderstand you, then how did one manage to advance the game while the other is essentially stagnating it?

You completely miss the point. Self-voting is not a null tell if it has become so prevelant by town that it becomes assumed that the person doing it is town "trying to get reactions". Reactions to a self-vote are also a null tell, so there is very little point to them except to:
1: derail wagons - StrangerCoug did this, but even as town this could be expected.
2: bring a case based upon reactions to a crappy move by town - also not helpful because people voting someone over a self-vote is also a null tell. It's not a town move.

You look at why SC voted himself, and the fact that any "reactions" are null tells at best, and SC didnt make a single townie move.
He made a calculated decision to self-vote, expecting people to back off of him, and if they didn't, he could go on attack on the "null tell" basis.

I still see no reason why he should be given a free pass to make anti-town moves without being pressured as the very possible scum that he is.

QFT. I think this post sums up what I've been trying to say regarding self-voting and not voting. I think we could argue back and forth if we wanted to. However, I feel I've gotten my point across and I now feel there are better avenues to persue.

unvote

However, I'm by no means giving coug a free pass, because for the rest of the game I'm going to view this as a black mark and will be paying very close attention to his arguments. If you're town coug, its time to start scum-hunting because arguing over the self-vote and reactions to the self vote is not helping the town.

I'm attacking Ectomancer's tunnel vision, taking posts out of context, misrepresentation, case dodging, and apparent oblivion of my intent to vote him until I actually did at this point. I say "apparent oblivion" because I feel his reaction to my vote is contrived and meaningless.

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

Because of this post, I consider jonathan in the same category as Bogre. Facade of activity without providing helpful content. Bogre is on the side of making comments that will allow him to jump on a wagon later on if one begins, and jonathan is on the side of playing the "confused newbie asking if he is understanding everything correctly". Except Jonathan has been here for about a year and a half and has no reason to be asking us if he understands everything so far. He has the experience to be able to keep up, so I don't by it:

vote: jonathan
FOS: Bogre

I need to hear both of you contribute something useful.

jonathantan86 does indeed need to stop poking his head in and out of the game here and actually engage in discussion.

FoS: jonathan86

[StrangerCoug]

Do i have to claim soon

It would be a good idea to consider claiming, but you don't have to just yet. You must claim at L-1 if you haven't yet.

*nod*

That's what I was looking for, just some sort of evaluation on your part by him, because at the point in time that I posted it originally, neither of you had commented on each other .

I -would- like to see more explanation and reasons of why Ectomancer jumped on mafiamann with very little reason besides my own and the previous vote on him.

I don't remember you providing much of your own input in your vote on MafiaMann.

Ectomancer, who is TBT?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm crediting your vote to myself and clockwork, because scum can find it easy to hide behind a wave of people jumping on a bandwagon.

I'm not making sense out of this. Explain.

[StrangerCoug]

How many votes does ClockworkRuse have on him at this point?

[StrangerCoug]

How many votes does ClockworkRuse have on him at this point?

Is there a reason you wanted to know this? It seems a little odd to make a post only to ask how many votes one player has when you can presumedly just count them yourself.

Because I'm a lazy son of a bitch xD

I think Ectomancer has cleaned up enough of his act for me to

unvote: Ectomancer

, but he's not off the hook in my book, so

FoS: Ectomancer

. I'll consider looking at MafiaMann and ClockwordRuse.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: MafiaMann

. If we assume that the random voting stage stopped with my self-vote, which most of us seem to, then his voting me out of appeasement and for his inability to spell ClockworkRuse's name, which happened after said self-vote, makes no sense. When he finally did vote ClockworkRuse at post #145, he failed to give a reason. I'm sorry, but lame excuses, a lack of reasoning, and popping your head in and out of the game is scummy.

I find ClockworkRuse somewhat believable, especially later on, but

IGMEOY: ClockworkRuse

anyway for his earlier, somewhat panicky actions.

[StrangerCoug]

ClockworkRuse, in your third post of the game, you threw an FoS on not only me but two of the people bandwagoning me. In addition, two votes isn't a lot of pressure—it's actually a bit on the safe side in the random voting stage. In my opinion, though, for three votes on the same person (in a mini, anyway), you need a good reason; however, I think we pretty much agreed to disagree on this point.

...Why are we still discussing the random voting stage at this point?

[StrangerCoug]

I found something interesting while formulating my last post...

vote:strangecougar

Happy

Anyone notice it?

strangercoug's name is "speeled" wrong in that post... quite ironic, considering the reason for not voting clock was that MM couldn't "speel" his name.

That slipped my mind. One of the most common mistakes I see with my username is that the second R gets left out, which he does here.

Note that "StrangerCougar", while rarely used, is an acceptable variant of my name because that's the first name I attempted on the first site I used this on. The name was too long, but I thought what could fit was cool-sounding, and it sounds better to me now, so that's what I use.

But yeah, MafiaMann. You vote me claiming you can't spell ClockworkRuse's name and you misspell mine?

[StrangerCoug]

ClockworkRuse, in your third post of the game, you threw an FoS on not only me but two of the people bandwagoning me. In addition, two votes isn't a lot of pressure—it's actually a bit on the safe side in the random voting stage. In my opinion, though, for three votes on the same person (in a mini, anyway), you need a good reason; however, I think we pretty much agreed to disagree on this point.

...Why are we still discussing the random voting stage at this point?

Because you brought it up. You said you were going to watch me because of 'panicky actions'and I asked why. So it is

you

using that stage as as leverage, not I.

I didn't say you were using the random voting stage as a leverage. I said we were still discussing it at this late point in Day 1, and I used the word "we" because I knew I was doing so and I'm certainly not talking to a wall.

For the counter-claim; It is known that scum have safe-claims. If counter-claiming would out a power-role, I think that would be very bad. Do you not agree? I decided I didn't want to see anyone take that chance.

If Zaphod wants to counter-claim, go ahead. I'll give it one day [real time, not game time] before I state anything else on the matter.

Why are you asking a specific player to counterclaim?

FoS: ClockworkRuse

[StrangerCoug]

Whoa! Daykills? Didn't see

THAT

coming.

[StrangerCoug]

Ah sorry sorry I here, lots going on and I realize i need to keep up.

I'm going to

unvote Mafiamann

for now due to the fact that it seems to have been scum driven since clock turned to be a predator. I still don't quite like Mafia's play so far, but for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Can you give any additional reasons as to why you think the wagon on MafiaMann is scum-driven?

[StrangerCoug]

The question now is whether Ectomancer was setting up a bus on Clock. He seemed very determined that he "found" scum on some weak flavor hunting/power role hunting excuse.

Uh, hello? Why are you referring to yourself in the third person while describing your own scummy actions?

It's only a bus if you and ClockworkRuse were scum on the same side, by the way. If Clock was a serial killer, then the bussing argument doesn't apply.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm willing to buy that The Bored Woodsman and ClockworkRuse were bomb and SK respectively for the time being, seeing as it's the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.

Killing the player that just replaced in was awfully opportunistic of Clock, too.

[StrangerCoug]

Never even thought about predators myself, i was just worried about commandos, and now we have an SK type role too, and who knows how many there are in that group or in the commandos for that matter.

Uh... Wolf?

As the sun rises over the Kalahari, the Whiskers family has a busy day ahead. It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions while the desert sun beats down on the defenseless meerkats. Even worse,

the meerkats constantly have to be on the lookout for vicious predators as well as the evil Commandoes

, a rival mob intent on taking over the burrow! But the Whiskers are strong and resilient. Stay alert.

Rishi directly told us we had predators to deal with. Are you trying to make us think you didn't know about predators so you could hide the fact that you're a predator?

I also think Rishi hinted to us that something could happen during the day...

It will be rough foraging for millipedes and scorpions

while the desert sun beats down

on the

defenseless

meerkats.

But

the Whiskers are strong and resilient.

Stay alert.

This tells me that during the day, we will be defenseless to attacks. However, we're strong and resilient. Maybe that was a hint to clock that if he picked the wrong meerkat to mess with, he'd be toast.

Nice catches.

[StrangerCoug]

Kills are not predetermined, but I'm sorry it happened. Good luck in your next game.

[StrangerCoug]

MafiaMann's at L-1. I'm not opposed to his lynch, but let's hear him out before we hammer.

[StrangerCoug]

I'd think of this game as an unofficial midquel if it can even be called that, MafiaMann. Current and future episodes will most likely not have any bearing on this game.

[StrangerCoug]

May I chime in and say that MafiaMann seems more like a VI, come to think of his death?

[StrangerCoug]

VI stands for

v

illage

i

diot. Town that constantly acts scummy without realizing it. One of the easiest people for scum to scapegoat.

[StrangerCoug]

We've exhausted my D1 case, and I'm tired of talking about it. Yes, I'm dismissing it with an

argumentum ad nauseam

, but there's absolutely nothing new to say about it. Moving on.

My first post today was looking back in hindsight now that we know what MafiaMann is. Since I said he was a VI, are there any signs of manipulating him into a lynch that we should know about?

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I am having technical difficulties with my Internet connection right now, and I'm posting from the library. I'm not going to call myself V/LA just yet, but if I take too long between posts, go ahead and replace me outright.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: The technical difficulties mentioned in post #258 have been resolved. Thanks.

May I chime in and say that MafiaMann seems more like a VI, come to think of his death?

Is that all you have to say coug? After all that happens on day one that is what you have to say? you seem to have no care in what happened one day one and thats why i will.

fos coug

That's all I had to say that was new (I'm not the kind of person who likes running around in circles, which is why I dismissed the case on me D1 with everything already having been said), and I was interested in the circumstances of MafiaMann's death. Yes I do care about Day 1. That was just the only thing I thought about that nobody had mentioned yet.

[StrangerCoug]

I know conversation is slow, but aren't you awfully opportunistic today?

Unvote if necessary
Vote: Cass

[StrangerCoug]

Explain why you think Cass's vote is opportunistic, and why your vote on Cass isn't.

Failure to explain your vote = opportunistic vote. Opportunistic vote = scummy. Scummy actions = vote on you. Therefore, failure to explain your vote = vote on you.

[StrangerCoug]

Opportunistic is situational, not a failure to explain your vote. Anyhow, Cass gave some reasons. I'm not understanding your reasoning for your vote.

For a vote not to be opportunistic in my eyes, I need the reasons or where I can get them in front of my nose when I see the vote. It's me.

[StrangerCoug]

You see how much clarification helps, Cass?

I'll go ahead and look at Bogre.

Unvote: Cass

in the meantime.

[StrangerCoug]

Bogre's post in isolation reveal that his 11th post is an attempt to line up lynches, which is not a good thing. The fact that his twelfth post has a defense starting with "It might be WIFOM" is leading me to disbelieve said defense.

Vote: Bogre

[StrangerCoug]

Before I say anything else, is failure to pay attention necessarily scummy?

[StrangerCoug]

OK, how about the word "bandwagon" causing me to overlook Cass saying that she "thought [Bogre] was scummy yesterday" and that "he's not contributing today"? I reread her post and realized that she did indeed have somewhat of a good case (hence the clarification bit I posted).

[StrangerCoug]

Bogre's post in isolation reveal that his 11th post is an attempt to line up lynches, which is not a good thing. The fact that his twelfth post has a defense starting with "It might be WIFOM" is leading me to disbelieve said defense.

Vote: Bogre

coug can you further explain this more as it seems your just trying to come up with a reason to vote him. It looks oppotunistic as cass was doing and you targetted him so it looks totally hipocrtical. Not one post you have made today has looked good so

unvote
vote coug

Legitimate reasons for a vote on Bogre ≠ opportunistic vote on Bogre. I also don't remember Cass saying Bogre admitted to WIFOM, so unless my memory fails me, that is my own reasoning.

FoS: muffinman

for misrepresenting me.

Oh, and see those drop-down boxes at the bottom of the page where they say "Display posts from previous: [All Posts] by [All users] [Oldest First]"? The drop-down box that says [All users] is your best friend, as it allows you the option to view someone's posts in isolation. Click on "Bogre" and you'll see which two posts I'm talking about. (I don't count his Post 0 as it's just his confirmation, so by "his 11th post" it matches up to his Post 11 in isolation.) Sometimes it's better to see the posts in question in context (i.e. you should leave it at "All users"), but if I want a quick look at a person, that's what I do.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

FoS: muffinman

for misrepresenting me.

That should say "

FoS: muffinhead

" for misrepresenting me."

[StrangerCoug]

I really want to yell at muffinhead and curiouskarmadog for engaging in a semantics argument; however, I am not going to question curiouskarmadog's experience with the honesty comment, especially given he's been around for almost a year longer than I have.

But yeah. curiouskarmadog's case against muffinhead, added to my case that he FoS'd me for not caring about D1 when in fact I only had one original thing to say about it (the rest already being discussed) and then twisting my reasons for voting Bogre into opportunism and using that to vote me, and then his hypocritical comment that he's not interested in the game when he accused me of not being interested in D1? Am I the only person who thinks something is wrong with this picture!?

Unvote: Bogre
Vote: muffinhead

[StrangerCoug]

Major HoS: Bogre

then. I still don't like him either.

[StrangerCoug]

@coug- where did i say that you are not intrested in the game and what is wrong with that anyways?

That's twisting what I said about you just a tad, but here it is anyway:

Is that all you have to say coug? After all that happens on day one that is what you have to say? you seem to have no care in what happened one day one and thats why i will.

Then you posted this, which combined with the above post looks hypocritical:

To be all honest i think im beginning to lose intrest in this game so I will try to keep up as much as posible and try not to e a lurker as I personally hate them

You don't care about something you're not interested in, now do you?

then you still hos bogre even though you just unvoted him? thats why my vote is on you still.

Just because I unvoted somebody does not clear them from my suspicion. I simply believe you're the better play at the moment than Bogre.

[StrangerCoug]

Claim or die, muffinhead.

[StrangerCoug]

I wanted to comment on your belief that predators know each other. Earlier I went through this line of reasoning. If they know each other, then we likely have 2 scum groups of 2. After thinking on it, I believe that a 2 scum 1 SK in a 12 player game is more likely. 4 scum, even in 2 groups, is a bit much without stacking town with roles other than vanilla. Given that the 2 scenarios lead to different lines of investigation, I submit that we stick primarily to the most likely (2 scum, 1 SK) until we either uncover another predator by scum hunting, or we eliminate the Commandoes.

This makes sense, actually. I highly doubt two scum and two serial killers, whether the SK's know each other or not, as it doesn't explain an awful lot about this game, particularly the lack of deaths Night 1 (and since I brought the lack of deaths up, the same applies to two doctors in a mini unless one of them has sanity issues).

[StrangerCoug]

267 - StrangerCoug responds to muffinhead's accusation by saying that the VI thing was all he had thought of at that point.

It's more accurate to say that the VI issue was all I thought of that nobody was talking about yet.

StrangerCoug wants to yell at muffinhead and ckd for engaging in a semantics argument.

(It was actually ckd and Rhinox, but whatever.)

My apologies.

[StrangerCoug]

ckd's got it right. I'm going to hammer, but I wanted to let people respond to what I put in my wall. I'll give... 48 hours from my previous post or until everyone says something. If someone's going to say anything to convince me muffinhead SHOULDN'T be offed, that's enough time to raise an objection. Sound good?

Good to me for the most part, but I want muffinhead to claim before you do so.

[StrangerCoug]

Skedaddling does not get you out of claiming. I'm sorry.

Mod: Please prod muffinhead.

[StrangerCoug]

I suppose I misspoke in saying that he was "eager" to vote mafiamann, basing that on his blanket "I agree with Clocksarian2" reason for voting; but then I reread to see that he added some of his own reason to his vote justification in 113.

So this is ClockworkRuse and Yosarian2's kid? xD

[StrangerCoug]

I would, but I'm playing the game with muffinhead. He doesn't seem to want to come in here and claim so he can salvage himself.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: "The game" should be "the waiting game". God, I need to make friends with that preview button...

[StrangerCoug]

I am having a very difficult time buying muffinhead's claim for two reasons:

1. It makes no sense to investigate somebody you have a null read on. If muffinhead is as experienced as he claims to be, then he would know better than this.

2. Rhinox has some very damning evidence against muffinhead at #378, especially on my case. The latter's bussing comment is especially preventing me from accepting his claim as true.

My vote stands, and I am willing to accept the risk if he speaks the truth. I don't think he does, however.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh...my opinions on the wagonners only apply if SC was killed and turned out scum. I thought that was clear. I don't think we can act on the wagonners unless we have evidence on SC's allegiance.

About discreetly FoSing 5 people, my FoS on the other four only apply if SC turns out to be scum. If he does, then my earlier statements do say that they should be investigated, yes. I didn't discreetly FoS SC (I explicitly said that), and I did say that the rest might be scum (which I think is equivalent to saying FoS), so I don't see what's so discreet.

This looks a little bit like fence sitting, but it's not a big blip on my scumdar.

I'm willing to hammer if the others think it's a good idea. (And I hope this sentence is not considered wishy-washy...me hammering also means that I believe in the hammer.)

I'm fine with somebody hammering.

[StrangerCoug]

A paranoid cop is one that always receives guilty results right?

That is correct.

So muffinhead is not a paranoid cop.

Elementary, my dear Sherlock.

[StrangerCoug]

Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has

strong

ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.

Why do you want to keep him alive?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm having second thoughts given muffinhead's response; however, his credibility hasn't gone up one bit. First off, you're only useless if you're naïve (or paranoid, but you're not). If you are sane, yay for you. If you are insane, it will take awhile to confirm it, but once it is, you can always report the opposite of what you really get.

You seriously lack dedication. Dedication is pro-town. Connect the dots.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Ectomancer

for defending muffinhead solely on flavor. I don't have time for a good read right now (class is in five minutes), but that's my number one suspect going into today.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Ectomancer for defending muffinhead solely on flavor. I don't have time for a good read right now (class is in five minutes), but that's my number one suspect going into today.

I think maybe you might take a little bit of heat for doing this so rashly. Firstly, ecto didn't defend muffin solely on flavor. Ecto started defending muffin after Vi replaced in well before muffin even claimed (that is, if you consider calling the case against muffin weak as defending muffin). And secondly, if I humor the idea that Vi was killed directly in an attempt to further frame ecto, your quick vote here could be interpreted as trying to opportunisticly start that bandwagon, especially since you didn't take the time to properly justify your vote.

As I said, I had class in five minutes. That is not enough time to give a detailed case on somebody, but that is enough time to become suspicious about somebody for something. I have a life, you know.

[StrangerCoug]

The one situation where you miight leave a claimed cop alive is if you know they are the final scum.

I don't get this statement from town's point of view.

[StrangerCoug]

Rhinox, if you want to sue me for making hasty generalizations of Ectomancer, then go straight ahead, but as I said, I suspect him most.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: For the record, part of my reasoning for my voting Ectomancer is how I don't like how he buddied up to muffinhead when he was about to be lynched. muffinhead flipped Commando, so that makes Ectomancer an object of suspicion.

His bloodthirstiness Day 1 when he tried to off me for voting myself is also something of concern to me, but not as big as siding up with muffinhead without a lot of reasoning.

Thanks. thats what I wanted to hear. What do you think about this in the context of not believing muffins claim, yet voting for mafiamann despite publically claiming the he did believe MM's claim?

Voting somebody you believe makes no sense, I'll tell you that. I can't think of anything at the moment that you haven't said already, but I like this post of yours:

Case 3 is obviously the muffin lynch. You argued that the case on muffin was weak, but after muffin claimed you didn't believe him. When it looked like no one was backing off, you changed and said he

could

be a cop and went back to claiming that the case on him was weak.

You're right, whether or not you defended muffin as your scum partner IS WIFOM, but that doesn't mean that gives you a free pass to do it without it being a legit possibility. But actually, whats more telling is that I found 2 examples of you endorsing a lynch based on weaker evidence than that on muffin, and 1 example of you endorsing a lynch of a player after a townie claim you believed. With muffin, there was a stronger case than either of the cases on coug on D1 or MM before his lynch, and muffin made a claim you did NOT believe, and yet this time, you were against the lynch. This is directly conflicting with your established play style in this game, and this is why I think you have a lot to answer for today.

Basic reasonings for his votes:

StrangerCoug (that's me):

I voted myself and someone has to die

MafiaMann (1st vote):

ClockworkRuse has a better case on MafiaMann than he has against me (though he has me mistaken with who I think is The Pope's Tiara)

ClockworkRuse:

Either he doesn't know what the town PM's look like or he's rolefishing

MafiaMann (2nd vote):

As long as this post here is, it's not helping me decipher why this vote's here.

jonathan86:

According to him, jonathan86 "is 'helping' along a bandwagon, yet backpedaling in the middle of doing it."

Ectomancer never voted for muffinhead.

[StrangerCoug]

you are scum.

A bold and risky statement, and one I'm getting closer to believing. But I'm not ready to vote just yet. Other players still need to weigh in with opinions on the subject.

I agree, but I currently have no good reason to doubt this statement. It is something risky to say, but the fact that he backs this up is making me debate whether it's even FoS-worthy, even if Ectomancer flips town. I do want to look at this later, though.

[StrangerCoug]

curiouskarmadog, saying "you are scum" without any qualifiers can be taken a number of ways. You could be cop with a guilty, you could be scum yourself attempting a bus, or you could have a confirmation bias. I'm not implying that you have to be one of those three things; I'm just saying they're possibilities, and I am not attempting to rule out anything other than them. The reason whether I'm not sure if it's worthy of suspicion in this context is because you back your suspicion up, and the way you did so is fine by me.

By "later" I mean when I do my reread in day 3. I currently have good reason to believe you are town. Yes, I'll look at that post, and what I'll think of it will be dependent on how Ectomancer flips, but I'm reminding myself to look at it because I think it is noteworthy. In my opinion, not taking a stance on or being unsure how to take something but saying it is of note is not an attempt to incriminate the person that made the statement. I understand how it can be taken as fence sitting, but that's the only thing I see wrong with such a statement.

My vote was made in haste, and the reasoning for it has been proven wrong. However, because it has been proven wrong by mentioning a number of other scummy things Ectomancer did and he did defend muffinhead in an attempt to stall his lynch, I have allowed it to stand. I don't understand how you're taking your calling Ectomancer scum and my voting Ectomancer for defending muffinhead solely on flavor (which, as I said, has been proven wrong) as essentially one and the same. Why are you bringing up my vote in this context, and why especially are you comparing it to one of your own posts?

[StrangerCoug]

I strongly believe that Ectomancer is scum. I'm saying that I'm still debating whether the statement is still worthy of suspicion if it ends up being that I am wrong. It is true that I don't good reason to believe that both of you are scum; however I remind you that I currently believe you are town.

Also, you are taking my argument the wrong way. By "qualifiers" I meant words and phrases such as "if" or "I believe". If my argument were that you came out of nowhere and said it, I would have straight up FoS'd you without any second thoughts. The fact that you backed yourself up with evidence is the only reason why I haven't immediately thrown an FoS at you and still haven't done so.

Yes, I deserve the suspicion for my vote. I am not, however, saying your outright calling Ectomancer scum is worse or more FoS-worthy than that vote. That would contradict my saying that I don't know what to make of it. Uncertainty does not necessarily mean suspicion, and neither does intent to review a statement. At worst, the complete sentence "You are scum" in the context you put it in with what we have would be a minor FoS as it's a strong statement to make. Hasty votes like mine do not warrant that little suspicion, hence my confusion as to why you are equating the two.

Are there any other misunderstandings you would like to bring to my attention?

[StrangerCoug]

Your defense that in certain circumstances it can be usefull to leave scum alive strikes me as really off - does it mean you knew yesterday that he was scum? Then why would you defend him? Semms self-destructive for a townie.

Town defending known scum makes no sense to me either, but neither does how it is self-destructive.

[StrangerCoug]

I understand now.

[StrangerCoug]

curiouskarmadog does come off as panicky to me despite my current belief that he is town. I do not think he and Ectomancer are scumbuddies.

What I'm trying to establish in my defense is that, even though he supported his belief, "You are scum" by itself is too strong to ignore, even by town. I know nothing about Ectomancer other than what he posted and what has been said in thread about him. I haven't even meta'd him, and I don't plan to.

[StrangerCoug]

this is why I am not as certian...posts like this.

curiouskarmadog does come off as panicky to me despite my current belief that he is town. I do not think he and Ectomancer are scumbuddies.

why didnt you make comments like this BEFORE Rhino said it? So explain to me, WHY I am coming off panicky?....because I unvoted ecto? What was panicky about that? One minute you are role fishing ("CKD could be a cop"), next you are warping your motivations around others ("yeah, CKD is coming off panicky").

As Rhinox pointed out, you made a strong statement and took it back. I simply interpret someone saying someone else is (as opposed to possibly or probably is) such and such an alignment as one of the three things I said, and I felt that you were on the panicky side before he brought it up. Once again, I'm not ruling out other possibilities.

I am not liking your play today...I didnt like your play yesterday....I was pretty sure Ecto was scum, until you came out with that "I will have to review this comment later" post....Classic example of laying down the ground work for a set up tomorrow if Ecto flips town....what I am think now though, is that if we DO have another SK floating about...Coug is it. Post that leaves himself open to manuver tomorrow. Oppurtunistic voting. Following other's leads on motivation...classic...I have seen it many times. Of course, people busted my balls about the "to be honest" bit too.

"Oh, let me make a note of this later so I can strawman curiouskarmadog." Yeah, right, that was the message I was getting across. Give me three examples from completed games of saying "I don't know how to go about such and such a comment, but it is noted" being an attempt at lining up lynches later and I'll believe your argument.

I seriously thought you were town, CKD. Now I'm having serious doubts.

FoS: curiouskarmadog

[StrangerCoug]

if I go and pull 3 games...and you believe my arguement..what will happen then, you will vote yourself? You will unFoS?....I will do it, if you promise to read the games and the outcomes...for it will take some time to pull them.

Will do with an un-FoS signifying that I am done.

also, i find it interesting that you "have doubts" but still continue to vote with me.

Remember that one of the possible interpretations I got of "you are scum" is an attempt at a bus.

[StrangerCoug]

Do you suppose claims are supposed to just leap forward anytime you ask for one CKD?

Let's put it this way: You're at lynch minus one. Claiming is the only chance you'll have of living at this point.

[StrangerCoug]

The last time I checked, the least dangerous person to lynch other than scum is a vanilla. Town would rather keep its cop, doc, tracker, whatever. By not claiming, you come off as having something to hide that town perhaps shouldn't know.

[StrangerCoug]

Rishi apparently had a problem with my quoting the 'wall of text' and when I read that I was being asked not to spam, I overreacted. I'll be staying on long enough for you to lynch me and spare Rishi finding a replacement. My apologies to the mod for the drama.

I hate this kind of posting, jut giving up, rolling over and dying. Makes my fingers itch to pick up that hammer. Ecto, if you're town, at least claim. I won't ask again, if you still refuse I'll assume you don't have a saving claim and act accordingly.

Didn't you tell me not too long ago that Ectomancer has the right not to claim if he doesn't want to?

[StrangerCoug]

So Ectomancer claims vanilla. Fair enough.

Here are three points I would like to see discussed before anybody gets lynched today:
1: Jonathan and his lurking.

He's not posting as much as he could be, and it would be nice if he would come in and present a decent case on somebody

2: Coug and the possibility he could be an sk

That's for me to know and for you to find out

3: The slight possibility that wolf bussed muffin

I remember someone saying wolframnhart voted muffinhead early and pushed him hard, so it doesn't look like a bus (the same applies to me). I know it's dangerous to go by hearsay, but I have no reason to believe wolframnhart was bussing either, and I believe he is town.

4: Anything at all anybody wants to question about me or my play.

Other than the case of my self-vote Day 1 which has been discussed already, I can't think of anything.

[StrangerCoug]

unvote,

well at this point either Jon and Ecto are in it together (which would be a horrid scum play) or Jon is telling the truth.

Not necessarily true, though I can believe jonathan83's claim. jonathan83 may be scum fakeclaiming and Ectomancer may be town.

So Ecto and Cass are not mafia, but they can still be SKs (99% sure Cass is not an SK)....even though I have a huge scum vibe off Ecto, I am not seeing him as a SK.

That only works if jonathan83 is scum and/or the serial killers are immune to investigations.

thats leaves the obvious for me.

vote Coug.

Do me a favor and don't vote me for "the obvious" or being "the obvious". I understand that you're too lazy to repeat a case, but the way I play Mafia, I like people at least leaving me where to go look for it.

Unvote: Ectomancer

, but I'm not going to vote for curiouskarmadog right now.

[StrangerCoug]

If anyone wants me to claim, say so. I've no big problem with it, but see no need to either. (And would prefer not to if you people don't mind.)

If you don't want to claim, then don't do so.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: My first statement was directed to Cass, not SC. And did SC claim yet? I saw Wolf's. If not, I'd like one.

No, but I see no harm in doing so. I am Mozart, vanilla meerkat.

It is interesting to note that jonathan83 didn't counterclaim when muffinhead claimed cop yesterday, but I'm not going to hold that against him as there may have been a reason not to do so.

[StrangerCoug]

It is interesting to note that jonathan83 didn't counterclaim when muffinhead claimed cop yesterday, but I'm not going to hold that against him as there may have been a reason not to do so.

I was thinking the same thing, expecially since Jon wrote his about Ecto, who he said he investigated night one:

Ectomancer said he had this strategy where a claimed cop shouldn't be lynched until LYLO or he turns in a guilty result, but this works only if there is only one scum left. It might have been a genuine mistake on his part. The lack of questions from him does not mean that he is not pursuing a line of investigation, I think, since there already were other people pressing muffinhead.

So I do not really think he is scum, at least not yet. However, I also think he should claim.

Cass hasn't been posting much, but I guess I could say the same for myself.

I think StrangerCoug deserves more scrutiny however, for his Day 1 actions at the very least.

?!?

FoS: jonathan83

until I see an explanation.

[StrangerCoug]

1. Evidence leads me to believe such.
2. For obvious reasons, I know I wasn't either (and I also claimed), so curiouskarmadog is actually the one that fits the bill out of those four in my opinion. I don't see a case on you or wolframnhart.

[StrangerCoug]

1)In post 249, you thought we should look for someone who might have manipulated the town into lynching mafiamann. I never saw a post where you mentioned any results of that investigation. Did you find any evidence pointing to anyone leading the town into mafiamann's lynch?

No. I was presenting a theory based on his posts before he got lynched.

2)In post 380, when you're giving justification for lynching muffin, you say I presented damning evidence in my post 278 (where I presented the wiki article on Yossarian as a guide). What part of my post were you actually using as the damning evidence against muffin?

Post #278 is a post I made (the one I asked if failure to pay attention was scummy). I think you mean #378, and these two excerpts from it are the damning evidence I speak of:

The problem I'm having is that I don't believe muffins claim, because I don't believe a cop would play that poorly. And if muffin is a cop, I'm disappointed he let it come to this. I'm also not sure I agree with investigating Cass night 1. I think there were probably much better targets for investigation.

I know what I am, but it actually would have made more sense to investigate me at that point.

If you dont believe me then just give me another day, or let me be nked.

If we give you another day, will you participate? You're not necessarily going to be nked, and if you're alive, you're not necessarily going to be able to investigate anyone. If we don't lynch you today, what are you going to do to convince us not to lynch you tomorrow if you're not nked? In other words, what are you going to do to show us that you're worth keeping around?

Interesting attack on his appeal to emotion.

As for your open question:

A thought for everyone: What, if anything, should we be able to take from this post of muffin's before he died?

well i will some up my thoughts on the game. Rhinox, jonathen and wolf all look town from my view. Vi looks much better but t be The rest could potentially be scum.

Vi's posts were more pro-town than Bogre's, and jonathan86 could still use some more activity. I still don't see the case on you, but what you have on wolframnhart makes sense to me.

[StrangerCoug]

I just realized that nobody asked this, and I feel the information from it would be useful:

jonathan86, why did you investigate Cass and Ectomancer?

[StrangerCoug]

Rishi is currently modding a newbie game. Without going and trying to find any other games, my assumption would be that a mod with that type of experience with game balance would be more likely to choose the first role distribution.

That doesn't exactly prove Rishi is experienced with game balance (though I'm not exactly saying he isn't). Somebody other than him came up with the newbie game setup.

[StrangerCoug]

There's a lot of setup speculation going on right now. I'd rather not outguess the mod with all these theories—detracts from scumhunting too much.

I'm still pretty certain curiouskarmadog is scum (and

vote: curiouskarmadog

, by the way—still don't like your overreaction today), but if curiouskarmadog is not scum and jonathan83 is telling the truth, then by process of elimination at least one of wolframnhart and I scum.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm still pretty certain curiouskarmadog is scum

Do you think he is commando or predator and why?

The "you are scum" comment leads me to believe Commando.

but if curiouskarmadog is not scum and jonathan83 is telling the truth, then by process of elimination at least one of wolframnhart and I scum.

Before you can say this, you have to show good evidence that CKD is commando. If you can't, that further supports that either you or wolf are commando.

It does make that assumption, and see above for why I think why curiouskarmadog is Commando. Not a lot of games I've played have had serial killers if my memory serves me correctly, but someone stating a strong belief that someone else is scum and then taking that statement back does not look like something a serial killer would do to me.

It should be noted that I do see the case on wolframnhart.

There's a lot of setup speculation going on right now. I'd rather not outguess the mod with all these theories—detracts from scumhunting too much.

The setup is very important at the monent (imo) It effects the way we should be scum hunting, and very much the outcome of the game. For example:

1) If we assumer there is 1 scum commando remaining, that would pretty much mean we could believe jonathan, and there is high probability that either wolf or coug are the commando. It takes 2 mislynches to get to lylo, and there is a very high probability of a win for the town.

2) If we assume 2 commando scum remaining, or chances of winning greatly depend on making the correct assumption: do we believe jon, or do we not. If we do believe jon (and he's scum), we're already set up for a mislynch today, and tomorrow is LyLo where we again have to decide do we still believe jon, or not. If we don't believe jon, and we lynch him today, we'll either hit scum, or we'll confirm cass and ecto (one of them would be nked) and we'll go into LyLo with 1 confirmed townie, and a group of me, CKD, coug, and wolf, 2 of which being commando.

3) If we assume 1 commando scum and 1 predator sk, then we should still be able to believe jon, we should still be able to limit who is probably commando to either wolf or coug, and 1 or either me, ckd, coug, or wolf is sk. From where I'm sitting, thats a 66% of lynching scum today (I'm not lynching myself).

So, if we think there is only 1 commando remaining, regardless of whether or not there is an sk, my vote will go for either coug or wolf today. If we think there are 2 commando remaining, my gut tells me we should policy lynch jonathan just in case he's lying and because I'm not sure I can buy right now that out of CKD, wolf, and coug, 2 of them form a scum pair. If he is a cop, it would at least confirm a townie (well 2, but 1 would probably be nked), and then from where I'm sitting, 2 of CKD, wolf, and coug are commando. Still, pretty good odds for the town. My theory behind this is that I'd rather be forced to not believe jonathan today and be wrong and still have a decent chance of winning, than mislynch today and have to decide whether or not to believe jonathan tomorrow when it could cost the town the game. (and keep in mind, I'm only considering policy lynching if the consensus is there is probably 2 commando remaining, which is why I've been asking about the setup.)

So if you guys could humor me, I'd like to propose a little poll. After all this conversation, what scum do you think is left in the game?

A) 1 commando
B) 2 commando
C) 3 commando

I hope everyone will answer. I haven't been able to make up my mind yet, which is why I can't just settle into a direction for my vote.

A makes the most sense, and I highly doubt C.

[StrangerCoug]

If they were town, I would (trying to put myself in their shoes) immediately suspect the other (SC->Wolf and vice versa) and think very hard about the possibility that Ecto or Cass were actually anti-town (if they believed that there were two anti-town people left), leading them to conclude that one of them was either an SK or a godfather.

I'm finding the logic of this a bit hard to follow. Why do you think wolframnhart and I would immediately suspect each other if we were town?

[StrangerCoug]

I understand now.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm still pretty certain curiouskarmadog is scum (and

vote: curiouskarmadog

, by the way—still don't like your overreaction today), but if curiouskarmadog is not scum and jonathan83 is telling the truth, then by process of elimination at least one of wolframnhart and I scum.

This is just a strange phrasing…why by process of elimination would you be scum?...dont you know that you are not? This also seems like he is setting something up for tomorrow with inside knowledge no matter the result today. Why are you not hypothesizing outcomes tomorrow if I am scum? You seem like you already know I will flip town if hung today.

I forgot to take Rhinox into account, actually, but that's probably because I believe he is town. I think it's simple, though.

If you hang, you flip scum, and I'm right about there being one scum left today, then it's game over. If you hang, you flip scum, the game is

NOT

over, and jonathan86 lives tonight, chances are he's scum.

If you hang and flip town, chances are jonathan83 will be NK'd if he's truthful. That would clear Cass and Ectomancer. That leaves Rhinox, wolframnhart, and me. I know what I am, so it's between the other two, most likely wolframnhart.

I am not hypothesizing outcomes for tomorrow if you are scum because I only believe there to be one scum left, though the general consensus seems to be two. If we lynch scum and the game continues, I will take a look at jonathan86 if he lives tonight to see if anything's off about him, but not until he comes forward with an investigation.

[StrangerCoug]

I could be wrong about the number of scum as I'm not psychic. I have heard of two-person Mafia teams, though. The ones I were in where that were true didn't have only two scum, however: see Minis 601 and 631, both of which had a two-man scum team and a traitor.

The funny thing is that, in Mini 631, I was effectively the traitor, but the two-man team were not told I was on their side and I wasn't given the names of the other two scum (there's a specific reason why not if you read it). In fact, I ended up being their kill Night 1.

[StrangerCoug]

After CKD and SC's recent posts, I'm seriously considering switching my vote from wolf to SC. However, Ecto gives me a bad vibe too. My new paranoid theory: either wolf or SC is the last predator. Ecto is a mafia GF. Or, as SC suggested: there could be a traitor or something similar, instead of the second predator. Think about it, it would make sense both balance and flavour wise (a meerkat who decides to join the other group?).

Even crazier theory: there was no kill night one. What if there was a recruit instead? Read the flavor text for that morning and you'll see where my paranoia comes from.

Any of these theories could explain why the discussion about connections is so muddied.

Thanks a lot for making my head hurt at 9:40 in the morning ><

Recruits don't make an awful lot of sense here unless the recruit happens to be the traitor, and yes, some traitors are recruitable. That wasn't the case in the two games I talked about, however.

[StrangerCoug]

My case on curiouskarmadog isn't going anywhere, and the flavor discussion is screwing with my head, so I think my best option is to

unvote curiouskarmadog

for at least right now.

[StrangerCoug]

My main problem is he didn't counter Muffin when Muffin had claimed cop.

Okay he's bringing this up again. As stated earlier, Muffin was about to be lynched anyway so I thought it's better to stay hidden...since he could be proved false through means other than a counter-claim. To me he's still trying his best to discredit me because my evidence points to him possibly being scum (through the process of elimination).

I was wondering why you didn't counterclaim either, but didn't hold you against it because I thought you might have a reason not to do so. There it is. It is usually in scum's best interest to get rid of as many power roles as possible, and I don't see any reasons to doubt you, so I'm essentially sold here.

Vote: wolframnhart. This is lynch minus one.

[StrangerCoug]

Well first time getting to be scum, hopefully i will do better next time.

One, you really shouldn't give game-related info once you're dead.
Two, I don't like things spoiled before the mod tells us.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: curiouskarmadog

for his overreactions yesterday, which I'm not going to forget about anytime in the near future.

[StrangerCoug]

I am Tosca the Seeker, not to quote my PM, I am essentially a Pred cop. This is why I had a hard time with jon role claim yesterday…and this is why I stated:

Ok I believe jon’s claim (for now)…If we have a cop (that is not jon) they would have counter claimed by now and it is a huge gambit for mafia or even an SK to pull. I have reason to believe that jon can only find commandos and not predators,

My role description specifically says I can only “see” the predators around us.

Night 1 Investigate wolf, not a SK
Night 2 Cass, not a SK
Night 3 Coug, SK “circling” the “family”

I call bullshit. Vote stands.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Also, why would there be a "predator cop" when jonathan83 was a cop that got guilties on both Mafia and serial killers? Seriously, guys, it's unbalanced. I can't say much about this from experience because of ongoings (the game that comes to mind is almost over, though, and I'm pretty sure I will be able to talk about it before day ends), but it simply makes no sense.

And just to make double damn sure...

CONFIRM VOTE: CURIOUSKARMADOG

[StrangerCoug]

LOL, you "call bullshit"?....as in you dont believe it and I didnt say enough to make you change your mind?

I just got an investigation result stating you were a SK and you come back with that?

LOL, you should have killed me yesterday, bud.

I very much would if I could, but I don't have a killing ability. I also wouldn't be able to call bullshit on your claim if I were dead, scumbag.

[StrangerCoug]

I do not find SC's reaction convincing.

You will when this one game we were in finishes *hint, hint*

CKD isn't sane.

You and your paranoid theories...

For curiouskarmadog not to be sane if he is truthful, I would have to turn up non-SK and/or you and wolframnhart had to turn up SK. He wouldn't be getting both SK and non-SK if he were naive or paranoid, and wolframnhart flipped Commando, which rules out the possibility of CKD being insane.

Even if he didn't claim to investigate me, I would have a hard time believing the existence of both a cop that gets guilties on Commando and predator and a cop that gets guilties on predators only. That's just plain unbalanced.

[StrangerCoug]

t is certainly possible that CKD is false-claiming. The only problem with that is, if you aren't SK, this would backfire on him and make him lose the game tomorrow. Or am I missing something here?

You didn't. If I am not the serial killer, then curiouskarmadog didn't just play his cards wrong; he set them on fire.

[StrangerCoug]

But part of the reason the game might be shifted in the towns favor at the moment is that we were able to take out an sk D1 with the bomb role, and the 2nd sk (if there is one) hasn't been killing all game (I'm guessing because he/she is afraid of dying like clock).

The last time I checked, most SK's cannot forego a kill. If we have two SK's, one with a daykill and one with a nightkill, and TheBoredWoodsman bombed the one with the daykill ability, then somehow the nightkill SK has always been either targeting the same person as the Commandos and/or getting roleblocked (I don't think Cass and Ectomancer have roleclaimed yet). I haven't played a game with a bomb in it, but I doubt there would be two bombs in a mini, which would rule out not killing out of fear.

I think ckd has no reason to lie, because if he is, I think that he is probably the only remaining commando. If you're not sk, coug, then we'll still be able to kill ckd tomorrow ftw. As good as this seems right now for the town, technically we're still not sure we're in a guarenteed win situation. If there were 5 scum in the game and things went bad the first day and night, we could have been in a guarenteed loss situation before the second day! Even with 2 commando and 2 sk, things could have been very bad for us whiskers. But I think this lynch will probably end the game.

For curiouskarmadog to be scum and win, there has to be four Commandos and one predator, but I am well aware that the town is probably guaranteed a win. But will it take one day or two? That's the question of the day.

I do want to show that game I've been talking about before I die. It's out of LYLO, but the final death scene hasn't been posted yet, and I do intend to show it to you guys before I get hammered. So basically, I'm asking you to wait a bit. (You will want to to see what I am talking about in regards to curiouskarmadog.)

[StrangerCoug]

Yeah. Rishi warned me about that. Apologies.

[StrangerCoug]

Who needs one specific game to make the point that curiouskarmadog's claim doesn't make a whole lot of sense with the setup anyway? Fakeclaims like that have probably happened a lot.

[StrangerCoug]

Its also possible that jon misinterpretted his role. Its possible he couldn't detect sk's or predators. Or maybe, his role said he could distinguish between pro-town and anti-town, but as a twist, predators were immune to cop investigations (whereas coug is not really a cop, more of a sniffer.)

That's the

ONLY WAY

curiouskarmadog's role makes any sense to me regardless of his investigation and my alignment.

If I'm innocent, then for obvious reasons curiouskarmadog is scum. Once again, town is guaranteed a win as long as there's only one other scum and it really does not matter which of us is lynched first, but it is against the spirit of the game for me to throw in the towel. It is also possible that curiouskarmadog really did get the result he claimed and that Rishi sent me the wrong role (in case he's paying any attention to this post, I will nameclaim again to make sure: Mozart, vanilla meerkat), but that's not very likely. It's very possible, but since it's this late in the game it could mean the difference between my winning and my losing.

I want everybody who thinks there are two commando and two SK to explain why they think so if they have not yet done so. And no, I'm not going to buy "the SK is afraid to kill because there might be another bomb".

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Add "given there only being one kill per night" to the end of the second-to-last sentence.

[StrangerCoug]

So, by your reasoning, either curiouskarmadog or me has to be the serial killer. Investigation claim or not, I still don't like CKD's overreactions Day 3.

[StrangerCoug]

it doesnt matter to me either way...I feel like we got this game in the bag...Ecto is not going to say anything that is going to change my vote.

The same applies to me.

[StrangerCoug]

To tell the truth, I don't have any evidence to say that curiouskarmadog is definitely Commando or definitely a predator, but with the role I have he has to be one of those two things, and I believe the consensus is that curiouskarmadog is probably not Commando given the flavor.

[StrangerCoug]

How exactly do you soft-claim vanilla townie, especially given, if you count this post, I've explicitly said I was for at least the third time now?

[StrangerCoug]

By evidence I mean in thread. Other than your overreactions yesterday, the only way I have of knowing you are scum is because your investigation result conflicts with my role PM.

Also, scum would be idiotic to fakeclaim vanilla over and over and then a power role. Sorry, but that's not going to work against me.

[StrangerCoug]

I told you curiouskarmadog was scum

In more sportsmanlike news, the setup was primarily what I tried to use to get curiouskarmadog killed. For reasons obvious to me, he had to be scum, but the setup and his earlier overreaction were my only real weapons I could use against him (a cop that detects both Mafia and SKs and one that detects only SK's is pretty redundant, and I doubted Rishi was that inexperienced a mod). It really didn't matter in which order curiouskarmadog and I were lynched in terms of the town winning since what would finally be my second town win would be in the bag, but I still intended to put up a fight.

I think the setup worked quite well here, actually.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

Hey coug, you like playing as scum a lot more than town, don't you hehe? It would have been very frustrating if it were LyLo and I would have had to choose between you or CKD at the end. The way you played this game, I don't think there would have been any way I would have been able to not pick you to lynch.

I think I do much better as scum than town. I've only won 20% of my games as town, but I'm breaking even as scum and briefly even had a winning scum record.

Any suggestions for me on how to improve as town are greatly appreciated

[StrangerCoug]

curiouskarmadog, it's not your hot-headed and agressive playstyle that I took as overreacting (you saw it out of me too); it's your taking back a statement that you were so confident in making that I took as overreacting.

[StrangerCoug]

sc is evil as my 2 worst played games, hes been in both of them lol joken.

BWAH HAH HAH HAH!

xD

Joking or not, it's still cute.