Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Andycyca]

Vote: hasdgfas

Because we never stablished you're not Syrup

[Andycyca]

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

Just to let you know, this game is based on discussion. The earlier we start, the better. Early scumhunting doesn't mean correct scumhunting, but it certainly is protown.

Unvote. Vote: Mizzy

[Andycyca]

Sure, why not... Why do you think any one would even think about suspecting you due to Capricious' post, when he didn't even mention your name, nor the fact that some one posted something similar to his post already?

It's happened to me before that I post some sort of question or logic or possibility or what-have-you and someone who's been in the limelight in a not-so-good way has used that post of mine to divert attention off of themselves and onto me.

I suppose I wouldn't be so bothered about his "Let's discuss this" if he had actually discussed it soon after without prompting. It came off to me as
insincere.

Like when?

Seriously, I don't see where Capri connects you, and the divergence of opinions between Capri and Y looks like distancing as much as the Capri/Cow pair.

[Andycyca]

As for RS, I feel like he's trying to distance himself from Skruffs, probably because of the meta info Skruffs brought up (see how unhelpful that was?) and it's already causing reactions where there might not otherwise have been. Some folks might say that's good, but I say it's completely fluff-content and does not help us scumhunt; it can only get in the way.

I also feel like RS is trying to create doubt in Skruffs where, again, he might not have otherwise and I think he's trying to vindicate himself (overly much) by casting Skruffs in the questioning light that he is

Distance myself from Skruffs... not really. All this Meta gaming had me quiet because I can't really contruibute due to my newbiness. Skruffs did raise my suspicions why he even wanted to bring it up to begin with. Which is why I asked him how he meant his "That's Unfortunate" comment. Anyone could have caught that.

"Vindicate himself (overly much)".....Why would I have any reason to overly vindicate myself? I have done nothing wrong to suggest it.

Like I said Skruffs comment perked my interest and I brought it to light. If I was distancing myself I'd have FoS'd him or voted.

Unvote. Vote: RS

1. "I'm a newbie, that's why I don't contribute a lot"
2. "Why would I..." Stinks of WIFOM

I don't consider a "That's Unfortunate" comment a bad thing, since everyone could make that kind of comment. However, attacking for weak reasons like that isn't very helpful...

[Andycyca]

Congratulations on being either an obvious scum or a terrible protown

[Andycyca]

It's strange, you know? The way RS was so pissed about being at L-2 but it took him a while to actually unvote himself. If you were worried about being (quick)lynched, why did you vote yourself in the first place? Even a jokevote is a valid vote for a lynch and definitely puts you closer to a lynch when you're under scrutiny.

Curiously, Elmo poitend exactly the same thing in 145 Look at this:

Prod avoidance post here. Why are you bitching about being at L-2 when you're still voting yourself? Hurr?

I understand I am still random voting me and

I'll take that off when I am ready to vote

but it was interesting to see how high I got huh?

Unvote: Rotten Snitch

As for WIFOM... No, I've seen several players in this forum go trough entire games without using circular logic. In a game with little info as this one, logic is the best weapon we townies have. And since WIFOM

can

be avoided, adding it is anti-town at its minimum.

mod

- can you prod Capricious please.

Also, a vote count would be quite nice too...

I am here, it is nice to know that you keep me in your heart when there are others who have posted less than me.

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

I'm sure he "kept you in his heart" because there's a wagon on you...

[Andycyca]

Andycaca went to the trouble of looking at WHO was on Rotten Snitch's wagon and then calling him out for being on it

just 2 things:

the "trouble" of looking who's in which wagon is easily solved by Ether's votecounts at the beginning of each page

My username is spelled with 2 "y" istead of 3 "a"

But it's a lot easier for you to type Andy
------------------
RS, please remember I didn't vote you because "you're a newbie". I did it because you defended yourself by saying your newbiness is a reason for not contributing.

AND for adding WIFOM and a blatant OMGUS.
------------------
I mentioned it again, Capri is prodded when there's a wagon on his back and all he does is a pressure vote (a prodded guy, pressuring others?)

[Andycyca]

Unvote

Ok, Deadline's up and RL stuff kept me away from this game. Sorry. However, last 2 pages' read gives me the impression that RS's logic isn't as bad as before, This doesn't clear you completely, just for the time being.

About all this meta talk... I don't consider it simply because I haven't been in all those games and I'm very lazy to read them all to compare behaviours between games.

To whoever asked about the case on me... I second it, because I can't defend myself from a nonexistant case. (Oh yeah, I forgot. I interrupted 2 townies while they were discussing and even though they aren't confirmed townies I'm supposed to be scum chasing weak targets...)

However, Capri has been asked and hasn't yet responded.

FoS: Capri

[Andycyca]

However, arriving to a NoLynch could, in fact, help scum in more than one way by moving the game to Night. Now that many players are scanning each other, an auto-night ends discussion, which is good for scum.

@Elmo: About 123: I meant that both {Capri, Y} and {Capri, cow} were discussing against each other and the supposed case on {Capri, Y} being distancing scumbuddies was as good as {Capri, cow} being exactly the same. In other words, the supposed distancing was as good for one pair or the other and was just based on the fact that their opinions weren't the same.

My reasons for voting RS have been discussed and the reason he isn't on my "obv protown list" is because I don't know anything about anyone's alignments.
----------------------------

Andy's unvote worked just fine, I see. And I don't like the wagon on him, by the way...

it's all fluff and no nutter.

Exactly my thoughts
----------------------------

...AND you can't even spell my name right? It's 5 letters! ><

Don't worry, it's common for him to mistype

My username is spelled with 2 "y" istead of 3 "a"

But it's a lot easier for you to type Andy

[Andycyca]

I still don't see a real case against me. Capri votes himself and then points at me (for no reason, whatsoever...

again

)

I mean, if you really think I'm that scummy, you should at least put your vote where your mouth is.

[Andycyca]

I agree with

Yosarian2

Zindaras, who agrees with Skruffs in the special deadline exclusion. Family will be whoring my attention all this weekend.

I'm glad Capri has posted more of his reasoning. I don't like Sir T being absent (is he V/LA?)

[Andycyca]

Post to avoid deadline. Sorry for being absent (my first modding just came up) currently rereading.

[Andycyca]

Back from a very nice, sunny and wet saturday 8)

My vote on Snitch has been explained repeatedly. My reason for unvoting too. I personally don't like the way the game is going right now, we're just fighting against the (deadline) current more than actually scumhunting. The way things are going we'll never get to a lynch. I don't think Capri is the scummiest one, but we definitely should lynch pronto.

[Andycyca]

Capri is at L-2 and we're in the deadline block. If he doesn't claim, we're just prolonging this for no reason. If he claims something we believe, we have time to find someone else to lynch. Prolonging it, while supposedly helping us have more discussion, just seems to be. "Hi, where's Capri?" That's not helping anyone. He needs to claim so we can get somewhere.

A lynch is better than NoLynch IMHO, and even if Capri isn't the scummier right now, he should claim quickly or die.

[Andycyca]

3 Unvote (Andycyca, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch)

I want all three of the people quoted above answer the following:

1) Why aren't you voting for anyone?

Because, if you remember, I first voted Mizzy, then RS and then unvoted because I hacen't found anyone else Scummy.

2) Why are you opposed to a Capricious lynch?

Read posts 408 and 423 first

3) How do you envisage this day ending?

Read 423

4) How are you contributing to that?

Vote: Capri

And to add to the whole ultimatum vibe of this post, I'm not posting again in-thread Today until at least one of those people have answered all four questions.

Wait 'till tomorrow

[Andycyca]

I'll answer your questions on Monday (busy, funny weekend ahead)

[Andycyca]

I had reasons to hammer, since yesterday we had a bunch of "No-deadline-no-info" posts, which meant dragging the first day without really moving the game. I stated on several occasions my inconformity with the game status under the deadline (which was my main reason to post only when I had something to add to the discussion rather than extending the deadline "to see what others have to say") Also, IIRC Capri didn't even tried to shake the wagon off him.

Read posts 408 and 423 first

[Andycyca]

Well, the argument that Capri didn't try to shake his wagon is a bit of a cop-out reason for things, if you ask me. Just because the person you're beating on doesn't fight back, it doesn't make it okay to beat on them.

This analogy fails a little bit. A wagon usually gives us more information (the wagoned's defense, the reasons for lynching, etc) even if it doesn't end in a lynch. However, even when Capri had a lot of votes on him he didn't contribute back. which left us with basically nothing. (it seems that Yosarian2 and I agree, see 520

So basically, even if that lynch wasn't a good one, I can say I put my money where my mouth was.

[Andycyca]

skruffs: Seriously? You find people to be buddying because they don't

quote

each other? That is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Why is it necessary for each person to directly address each other person, anyway?

This is good stuff.

Mizzy's attitude towards the people on the Capricious lynch is really scummy to me. Mizzy wasn't doing anything to get a lynch, and it looked like she wanted to no-lynch, which wouldn't have helped anyone except the scum. She wasn't doing anything to get the wagon off of Capri either. She didn't have another target for us. To me, it seemed like she wanted to be off-wagon so as not to come under suspicion and so she could hold it over our heads today, while she was actually fine with Capri getting lynched because she's scum and knew he was town. If she actually was serious about not wanting him lynched, she could have provided another option for us instead of saying "he's town, don't lynch him" then today saying "I told you so" which is actually a scumtell and leads me to a

FoS: Mizzy

This too. Mainly because the first thing she did was to attack the hammer (which obviously, someone had to do it in EVERY lynch) for the timing. Not a very good lead IMHO. However, she's responded well, and I don't see anything else worth mentioning. Currently, she stands on "partially scummy" status.

[Andycyca]

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so

vote:Eldred

I (momentarily) disagree with Yosarian2. I don't think those are valid reasons (yet) to ensure a vote, but I'll reread an Eldarad-only thread and will post my opinion.

On that note let me add some WIFOM to the game
..... No one read it though because it is WIFOM and cannot be proven but I am only posting this because I "don't want the town to consider it because it is WIFOM but it is a gut feeling I have".........

1. Please don't add unnecessary WIFOM and/or senseless logic
2. Scumhunting shouldn't be based on avatars and the flavor text.

(Sorry for the triple-post, I usually merge my posts, but I'm still a little dizzy from yesterday)

[Andycyca]

Doing our mid-terms, duh.

[Andycyca]

rereading, sorry for the absence. More in a few hours

[Andycyca]

RS Believe me, mafia daytalk isn't that useful (I've used it) well-organized scum could organize themselves without daytalking if they did a good nighttalk.

However, I don't see the point where Skruff's post relates to your 673

[Andycyca]

Andycac - why does his post have to relate to mine?

He was quoting you.

[Andycyca]

Sorry, I've been busy these days (I mean, more than usual) I'm pulling some 1-user threads right now.

[Andycyca]

Y: Hasn't stopped attacking Skruffs since day 1, but at least, he's put his money where his mouth is post 624

Skruffs: Looked a little bit weird with his mizzy scum connection, but I don't find him particularly scummy on his case (looks plausible to me, but I'd have to check it again)

More later, I intend reading on everyone.

[Andycyca]

Andycaca: that he's voted me for a while now, does that mean that his vote is more valid than it was when he first put it on? How long has Zindaras been voting me? How long have I been voting other players? why does none of that matter in your analysis?

I just stated that I find him more protown since he's actually doing something rather than heavily pointing without voting.

[Andycyca]

/post. Just found a micro contradiction in Y's posts from D1

[Andycyca]

Ok, looking at a Y-only thread, I found him referencing a game with Capri (this one) which stroke me as odd, since he's against meta'ing.

Andycaca:
Are you insinuating that voting without reason is better than reason without voting?

I didn't mean that. I don't vote anyone without a cause, except for the random/arbitrary vote stage. If someone really believes someone's scum and finds enough "evidence" against him, voting is the protown thing to do. I've attacked people for voting without apparent reason, because that contributes to a lynch without contributing to the discussion (anti-town) but apart from some few cases in this game, I haven't seen non-reasoned votes.

[Andycyca]

I only stated it as a minor contradiction, not as proof of your guilt

[Andycyca]

@yos: I'm doing it right now

[Andycyca]

Sorry guys.

I believe that Mizzy and Yosarian are the scum in this game.
I believe that Mizzy played a decent part in the Capri wagon.
I believe that Mizzy has been fighting back and forth with Skruffs to distract the others and to draw attention away from any other conversation.
I believe that Yos has been trying to get a bandwagon on an easy target (Me) and when I pop town he can say I acted scummy and therefore his vote was legit like he did with Capri.
I believe that Yos's vote on Capri to pressure a defense from him would have stayed no matter what Capri defended with.
I believe from Yos and Mizzy's immediate vote on me was more out of frustration of their night actions than anything else.

Classic noobscum-tell I think not
You should probably be wary of making comments like this- everyone plays differently and no scum tell is 100% accurate

OK, I'll go phrase-by-phrase

1. Nice belief. What makes you think that (not that I agree with you)
2. If by "decent" you mean "no vote", ok
3. Well, she debated a lot with eldarad yesterday because of her

non

participation in D1's lynch. Why don't you take that as "distraction" as well?
4. I think that's called "Appeal to emotion". back in D1 I voted you and you made more or less the same mistake.
5. Again, what makes you think that? We're excluding psychic abilities.
5a. what purpose does that belief serve?
6. Again, contentless phrase.
7. OK, I agree here.

[Andycyca]

I saw your question eldarad. I'll adress it later today.

[Andycyca]

3. Well, she debated a lot with eldarad yesterday because of her

non

participation in D1's lynch. Why don't you take that as "distraction" as well?

Well, Andy, what do you think about that? Because so far you've avoided expressing an opinion either way...

My gut didn't like the way she expressed about the people in the wagon, but so far I haven't seen it as an attack strong enough to consider it a scummy tell.

BTW RS, if you're approving of your lynch, why exactly do you suggest it to be by deadline? We've seen that those deadlines are terrible for scumhunting

[Andycyca]

I was pretty sure that Yosarian2 brought it up first, and I was baiting him to see if he was actually trying to push it. HOwver, like with everything else in this world, I guess I could be mistaken.

Where does he suggest it?

Lol. Nope, I'm pretty sure I never said anything like that until you did, Skruffs. In fact, while your suggestion (and yes, I do think it was your suggestion, unless you can point to a quote where someone else suggested that...) that the scum might have been away all night was possible, it's not very likely, since that would require all of the scum to be away the whole time; and I wanted to see where you were going with that, if you were planning to use your theory to put together an attack on someone.

I personally don't like night speculation a lot, but I agree with Yosarian2 here. In my previous scum games I've always tried to send a "just in case I miss the night deadline" kill. If scum failed to do this they're either very stupid, completely inactive or devising some weird strategy. Maybe checking everyone's activity during night would help clarifying this?

[Andycyca]

His recent response to my question about his opinion on the Mizzy-eldarad debate was one line and wasn't very illuminating.

Well, what exactly did you want me to comment about? She didn't have a real case (other than "You lynched an innocent". Those kind of cases shouldn't be addressed that much)

[Andycyca]

im going off a hunch and right now with nothing else its the best thing i got. Yes I think we might be in LYLO

explanation.... nope you all dont want to hear it. it is WIFOM and will do nothing for the game until we get end game results. Yos and everyone else will discredit it and hopefully i will be lynched anyway.

If your gut thinks that way then why did you mentioned it? You just Bring up something that you know can't be explained without WIFOM.

Why did you mentioned it?

FoS: RS

[Andycyca]

Yes I am Da Bomb

I have claimed townie

You know, when you're being scrutinized, sarcasm isn't the best way to go.

Tomorrow is deadline and as long as I am at L-1 then I will tell everyone my WIFOMish hunch.

Why wait until deadline? Why only at L-1?

[Andycyca]

If you wanted yourself lynched, why didn't you vote yourself?

[Andycyca]

Enough of this.

Vote: RS

[Andycyca]

Ehm... I don't have items...

[Andycyca]

Guardian, I've already stated my reasons for hammering (twice). Basically the game had come to a terrible point and something had to be done. Besides, RS's attitude was extremely anti-town (WIFOMs, strange gambits/plays, a lot of OMGUS-like attacks and the sort of it)

However, I don't think it's enough to make a case on me. Right now my gut tells me hasdfasfgasdf /Eldarad / Mizzy could be scum, but It's somewhat hard for me to remember all this game right now.

I remember a very weak case (and a very unuseful answer) between Mizzy/Eldarad about mislynching back on (D1? D2? can't remember right now), which is an interesting link IMO.

Hascow is the only one I can't really read right now. Not many attacks (could be an interesting scum tactic, though but that's just gut)

More later.

[Andycyca]

The items are confusing me. I'm recalling everything in this thread about items.

[Andycyca]

Andy, what do you think about everyone? If you're not scum, then who do you suggest the scum group is, and why? Also, could you explain why you were willing to follow Eldred against Mizzy earlier this game, and could you explain why you've contributed so little content for most of this game?

I think the second question answers the first

My recent Eldarad-only reads have ended up in nothing. Save for some stupid attacks (which have already been addressed) I can't find particularly scummy. Links? Mizzy perhaps? They've had several rounds of arguing without too much input for the rest of town.

TBH I haven't properly read hascow or Y-only thread. Gut tells me they're scum, which would define the scum set right now as:

{hascow, Y, (Eldarad∨Mizzy)}

------------------

I recall voting to lynch Mizzy earlier in the game (back in D1) is that what you meant? I can answer you, but right now I don't remember any other moment when I've agreed with eldarad against Mizzy (not that it hasn't occurred, I don't recall quite well right now)

As for contribution, my only excuse is RL (I know, completely my fault) if you look in all the games I'm in, they all suffer of this and I can't do anything but to give you my sincerest apologies. If I haven't asked for replacement is because I know I must keep my commitments no matter what... but look on the bright side: I've been admitted for Engineering in Ambiental Technology! (I know, non sequitur)

[Andycyca]

@Y: yes, even though the country has a lot of shit, I'm proud to be mexican.

@Yos: I did read the Eldarad thread partially. My schedules can't allow me to read those threads in a single sit and therefore I may skip/forget. some info.

Anti-deadline post. More tomorrow

[Andycyca]

Andy: Lo pregunte porque viví en el DF de niño, y mi papá sigue viviendo por ahí.

Yay! +350AP (si sabes usar DF quiere decir que tienes un excelente español )

If I were to vote for Eldarad, it would be becase hedidn't offer the information for saving RS until after RS had already been killed.

Then why aren't you voting him?

[Andycyca]

Antideadline post. Weekend

[Andycyca]

Sorry guys, unexpected work.

[Andycyca]

No deadline yet. Reading and commenting right now (Sorry for the delay guys)

[Andycyca]

Actually...

Mod

: I officially request replacement. I have even more work coming and this game has already suffered a lot because of me. Sorry guys.

[Andycyca]

I'm staying here until a replacement is found.

[Andycyca]

EBWOP: And will try to do some analysis

[Andycyca]

Pre-amalysis post