Mini 545 - The Final Stand Mafia - Dramatic Finish!

[Glork]

/confirm

[Glork]

Vote: Sangy

for being fourth on the player list.



Very obvious scumtell.

[Glork]

I don't get the rolefishing either.

Unvote, Vote: Khelvaster

[Glork]

Does a nonvote seem to be doing much right now?

[Glork]

I seriously doubt the scum would try to get a claim out of a townie THIS early in the game.

Unvote, Vote: Trebis

You should claim. Immediately.

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Trebis


You should claim. Immediately.

Maybe I'm not understanding something, but I don't see why that's necessary at all.

I think it's an acute case of sarcasm.

Eh. Yes and no.

[Glork]

It's probably because he doesn't want to lynch his scumbuddy Trebis.

[Glork]

Why exactly did you unvote, OGMY?

OGMY is more likely to be a typo of

O

h

G

od

M

y

L

ife than "Khelvaster." OGML unvoted you.


But hey. Thanks for playin'.

[Glork]

I fail to see what he would have gained by making up that opinion.


Do you think he may have been lying about being under said assumption, Mizzy? Why or why not?

[Glork]

No, I asked the question because I was surprised that Mizzy brought it up as a possibility. That does not *at all* feel like something somebody would just make up. I don't think he could have swung a lynch based on it, and I don't think it was a "stir the pot" move that scum would make.


Right now, I'd put Khel, Mizzy, and RD in my tentative "protown" list. No real good scum candidate has stood out yet.

[Glork]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found the exchange a little hard to follow (my eyebrows hurt from raising them so much) and it feels like one big distraction, though not one done on purpose.

QFT QFT QFT



Still happy with my Trebis-vote.

[Glork]

General gut?

I can't really say for sure. The post which I quoted, when I voted you to claim still feels off to me. I guess my train of thought goes something like this: "If you think the 'trying to get X to claim' conclusion by Khev was false to begin with, why would you go out of your way to point out that even if it were true, it's a sign that Shaka is probably not scum?"

Unnecessary and out-of-place defenses of other players ping my radar. I think it's worth looking into.

[Glork]

Um.

I had a vote which was sitting on somebody else for a completely random or arbitrary reason.

Votes are generally much more weighty than FoSes when instigating discussion, especially as we move out of the random stage.


Simple, ne?

[Glork]

EBWOP: Also, I generally don't FoS unless I've got multiple suspicions which I want to voice and only one vote to place. FoSing people without voting usually seems really weak to me (though I will admit that there are times when it's appropraite). If you've got the vote, why not throw it around?

[Glork]

It

was

arbitrary in that Khelv happened to be the first person to pick up a few votes and I happened to feel like wagoning somebody at the time I switched. There really wasn't anything else significant behind it.

[Glork]

I find x and y suspicious. I notice that x votes y to start the game, but as things get serious, he removes his vote.





Take a wild guess there, champ.

[Glork]

All too true. In fact, he hasn't adequately explained his suspicions of OGML either. I trust that elaboration is forthcoming, Retro?

[Glork]

Meh.



Run up his replacement.

[Glork]

At the very least, Trebis, respond to RD and myself so that your replacement isn't stuck in the position of having significant suspicion levied on them to which they cannot respond.

Anything less is horribly rude and selfish.

[Glork]

Before you go, could you respond to my

entire

post instead of just Strawmanning the "gut" part?

General gut?

I can't really say for sure. The post which I quoted, when I voted you to claim still feels off to me. I guess my train of thought goes something like this: "If you think the 'trying to get X to claim' conclusion by Khev was false to begin with, why would you go out of your way to point out that even if it were true, it's a sign that Shaka is probably not scum?"

Unnecessary and out-of-place defenses of other players ping my radar. I think it's worth looking into.

[Glork]

Is the fact that he asked to replace out of the game some time ago a factor for or against him, or does it not weigh into your decision?

[Glork]

No, I'd rather you lay it out explicitly.

[Glork]

Unvote

...I must admit, I have gotten cold feet regarding a Trebis lynch. I will re-read the game and ask lots of people tons of questions tomorrow. Hopefully that will jump-start more discussion.

[Glork]

I wanted to see the meat behind your argument before I decided whether I felt you were an opportunistic scumbag. At this time, I am disinclined to believe that to be the case, but I'm feeling very wishy-washy right now.

[Glork]

Vote: Joubert

[Glork]

Suggesting No Lynch on Day One seems pretty shady. It's worth putting my vote back on.

I skimmed over the entire game, and have a handful of thoughts.

I don't really like Shaka's recent case against Mizzy. Mizzy is obviously one of the more cautious players (based on the exchange we had over voting philosophies).

If I weren't on Trebis/Joubert, I would probably be voting for Sangy, yeahthatguy, or TJM. They have all been entirely too quiet for my liking. We should be forcing people out of the shadows to get information. It certainly doesn't help that Sangy, Tarl, and OGML apparently haven't been active in a week.

The town seems very reluctant to take action, in my opinion. I am definitely on the side of "When things seem slow, go pick a fight with somebody to get the game moving." There aren't very many people doing enough with the tools they have. There is no reason to No-Lynch, no reason not to be throwing votes around and making people

react

and

interact

. That is, by far, the best way to find scum in this game.

[Glork]

Mizzy: Could you give me a quick summary -- without going back and reading -- of what your current thoughts are on the following players:
RetroDucts
Glork
yeahthatguy224
Sangy
Death's Door/Erg0

[Glork]

Vote: Glork

, for unparalleled behavior...

FoS: Mizzy

, for thinking there's only one way to play Mafia...

Oh wait, Mizzy is female... That explains all...

OMGIS!


Mind explaining what "unparalleled behavior" you are talking about, and how that makes you believe I am more likely to be scum?

[Glork]

Mind explaining what "unparalleled behavior" you are talking about, and how that makes you believe I am more likely to be scum?

[sarcasm]Clearly, good sir, your behavior lines meet at least at one point somewhere. Therefor, you are scum. [/sarcasm]

Are we talking in three dimensions?

I could be skew.

[Glork]

I should point out that Joubert is at Lynch-1 right now (Retro, Erg0, Glork, Mizzy, Khel Tarl).



He should claim right about now.

[Glork]

After thinking about it, Glork, by his behavior, seemed to try to "stir the shitstorm" (citation from the JFK movie), which is usually not advantageous for the Town. Actually, it makes more sense after reading Glork's last posts where he asks for a claim. Looks scummy even. And Shaka's post 215 is almost ironic because a very few posts after his, I am suddenly at L-1. Very impressive, actually...

I didn't ask for a claim until you were already at L-1. Your timeline is completely inaccurate here. Tar has unvoted, but he can put you back at L-1, and he has also asked you to claim. Mizzy has expressed no desire to take her vote off of you (and coming from someone of her playstyle, that's pretty danged significant). Based on the fact that three other people are

ALSO

voting you, I would wager to guess that they would like to hear a claim, too.

Also, how did my behavior attempt to "stir the shitstorm" as you so eloquently put it? I unvoted when you were at three votes, and then I put that vote back on you to put you back at three. Your reaction and your baseless accusations of my "unparalleled behavior" (which you then rescinded but have now taken back up, apparently) are what caused the subsequent wagon. If there are scum on your wagon, I expect them to be somewhere among Tar/Khel, with possibly Erg0 as an early joiner.

Want to know why I suggested a No Lynch? Look at the numbers. If there's 12 players, let's assume there's 3 Mafia. So 3/12 chances we lynch Mafia, and 9/12 chances we lynch Town...

Then why don't we No-Lynch until we're in LyLo? By the very nature of the game, we're more likely to hit town if we lynch blindly, in a complete vacuum. However, there have been 9 pages chock full of discussion, and lynches give us

more

information with which to work on future days.

You're obviously not a raw newbie here, with 4+ months under your belt. Have you ever suggested No-Lynch on D1 before? Have you seen somebody else suggest it? If so, what were the reactions to such a suggestion, and what (if anything) did you learn from the situation?



I do feel somewhat comforted that Joubert at least explained why he thought NL would be a good idea, especially considering that is the typical response that players tend to give. I am still baffled how he could accuse my behavior of being outlandish, take that back and call me a jester, then come back and say I was tryiing to drum up something against him.

[Glork]

Unvote

for now (little to no access most of this weekend), but I very much expect Joubert to respond to my last post, or my vote will be going right back onto him with no reservations.

[Glork]

Okay, no No Lynch. I suggested this initially because I felt the prior discussions were more like people throwing empty suspicions to each other, OMGing and such, that seemed to go nowhere. But if you all think it's constructive discussion with Scum hunting and hints digging, then I'm favorable to pursue the discussion. Simply take note that No Lynch IS a possibility that can be used. But not now, apparently...

The thing about D1 that a lot of people (especially scums) don't realize is that, even though a mislynch is statistically likely, there are often more player-interactions that take place D1 than most of the rest of the game

combined

. D1 play is sortof a lost art nowadays, because hardly anybody goes back and

re-reads the early parts of the game

after a scumbag has been busted, but re-reading information with more knowledge is really, really, *REALLY* helpful. And figuring out who gets that D1 bandwagon over the edge into true "lynch territory" can be a pretty big deal.


That said, I don't like a Joubert lynch anymore. His last post rang pretty protown to me. I'd like to lynch Erg0 or possibly one of Tarh/Khelv today. I'm pretty sure we'd find scums in that group, unless somehow Joubert really *IS* scum. (If Joubert does turn up scum, I'd expect somebody really late on the wagon to be busing him.)

Vote: Tarh

[Glork]

Right. Believe it or not, I passed over both it and the first time you askedme to answer it.


Q:

Glork: In light of this discussion, I'm curious as to why you included Mizzy in your tentative pro-town list in post 92?

A: Post 84 felt

very

protown to me... I had asked Mizzy if she thought Khelv was making up his misinterpretation of "pressure vote" and she just flat-out stated that she wasn't sure and that she wanted to dig around more. I don't really know why, but that rings genuine to me. It reads like a post I might make in that situation.



Now, regarding your second point: No, I don't think I have a meta on you. I think that your initial vote was a bit opportunistic (that's why I said I felt like I was getting cold feet), and I have another minor tell that I don't yet want to divulge (because I'm honestly unsure exactly how reliable it is at this point, hence the "minor"ness of the tell). If anything, the unnamed tell is a meta on players in general. The former is based purely on your attitude towards Joubert, whom I have decided is probably not scum anymore.

[Glork]

I believe Glork was being his usual sarcastic self when voting you, for the humour of it. You said lets lynch scum and he voted you 'cause its funny'.

...eh?

[Glork]

...I should probably point out that Jesters are

EXTREMELY

rare outside of open setups exactly because of situations like this. People are looking for all the wrong tells, aren't willing to vote the players whom they believe are scummiest, and it's really taking an awful lot away from actual scumhunting.

[Glork]

people that try to focus on other roles and bring attention away from scum hunting might actually be scum themselvs

Bingo. You win the prize.

[Glork]

I don't really understand your question, Retro, especially in the context of the quote you cited, and given that I felt Trebis

was

a good scum candidate.

[Glork]

The fact that people (such as Erg0) seemed willing to pile onto Trebis when nothing else was really going on sent up a red flag for me. Joubert's play has been weird, but I'm not willing to say that it's indicative of scum. In particular, I think I mentioned that his explanation of why he suggested No-Lynch sounded like a pretty typical "I've not yet been explained why NL is a horrible idea D1" response... it is

possible

that there was malicious intent behind it, but I don't think that's the case.

Now, as far as why I voted you rather than Khelv/Erg0.... much of it is that I don't recall you having done very much. While I acknowledge that Erg0 has done something definitively scummy in my mind, I feel that you've hardly gotten any attention at all. That "under the radar" feeling is something I want to force out as soon as possible.

[Glork]

Also, any discussion on "helping the [hypothetical] Jester" achieve their WC would have to come after we find all of the real scums. We're not going to waste today or tomorrow or the next day lynching a Jester. Scum love that because they basically get a free kill. I really find this Jester discussion to be

VERY

distracting. It has hurt my interest in the game, because I think people are:
A) Chasing ghosts; or
B) Trying to get everyone else to chase ghosts


I feel that all of this talk about Jesters, who might be one, and what we would do if somebody were a jester should cease immediately, and I

WILL

place a big black mark next to anybody who insists on drawing this out any further. Do I make myself clear?

[Glork]

In retrospect, I think it very well could have been an innocent mistake, and I think people continuing and harping on the issue are at least as scummy as Joubert himself for bringing it up in the first place.

[Glork]

Jury's out on Killa. I expect something significant from him soon or he'll slide into my scummy category.

[Glork]

Why Killa?

[Glork]

Unofficial Vote Count:
Joubert - 4 (Mizzy, Retroducts, Tarhalindur, Khelvaster, TheJiveMachine)
Tarhalindur - 1 (Glork)
TheJiveMachine (killa seven)

Not Voting: OhGodMyLife, , Joubert, Shaka!!, Erg0, Sangy




Also, shaka, why aren't you putting your vote where your mouth is?

[Glork]

EBWOP:
Unofficial Vote Count:
Joubert - 5 (Mizzy, Retroducts, Tarhalindur, Khelvaster, TheJiveMachine)
Tarhalindur - 1 (Glork)

Not Voting: OhGodMyLife, killa seven, Joubert, Shaka!!, Erg0, Sangy

[Glork]

I have to side with Killa on this one. Right from the get-go, the only potential question mark was him OMGUSing TJM before going off to do anything, and he picked up immediate and intense heat.

I think Shanka's reaction is way overboard, and Shaka moves way up in my suspicion list. His last post, answering why he's not voting, makes no sense. He calls Joubert/Killa "best bets," states that he wants to policy lynch them, but won't do so because he doesn't find them scummy. Who exactly

DO

you think is scummy, Shaka, and why the hell aren't you voting them with less than TWO days before deadline hits? You are running around making a lot of noise, but you're not giving us any firm opinions, and you are not helping to actually accopmlish

ANYTHING

.

Unvote, Vote: Shaka

Mod: Prod (or just replace) Sangy, please. She has not posted in SEVENTEEN days.

[Glork]

Unvote

while I re-read.

Erg0, you posted this seven days ago. How has that re-read coming along, and what have you learned from doing it? Why aren't you doing more to help weed out people who are being shifty?

[Glork]

I don't really understand your question, Retro, especially in the context of the quote you cited, and given that I felt Trebis

was

a good scum candidate.

Eh? You said no good scum candidates stood out to you and not long before that you had voted for Trebis. I assume this meant you thought he was slightly suspicious and that there may have been others you had an eye on. Your post implied that there were 'some' scum candidates, even if they weren't 'good' ones. I wanted to know who these people were.

I've already stated that I like to throw my vote around because I think it does a better job at getting things going. Yeah, I found Trebis slightly suspicious, and my vote was there to dig around a bit more. I was having a hard time getting anything else on anyone, because at the time the only real debates that took place were among people whom I believed to be pretty protown at the time. I have a feeling that, assuming 3 scums, two of them were (and perhaps still are) sitting around and letting the town chase shadows or do nothing. Slow/Dead, overly-cautious, contentless, and wishy-washy towns highly favor scums. and this town has been all of those things so far. I expect that the scums are QUITE happy with this, and that they're laying low and just letting the deadline creep up and hit.

Also, any reason you didn't answer this earlier?

I've been pretty lazy about this game so far. I can't remember exactly why, but I recall seeing it and going "oh, I'll post in this game later." Obviously, I never had bothered to do so.

[Glork]

Who's the one that hasn't been sitting around?

[Glork]

shaka, you still haven't told me who you think is actually scummy and why you haven't done more to try to get them lynched.

[Glork]

This is partly why I'm miffed that half the players in the game aren't voting at all.


Also, Retro: I don't know yet. I need to do some digging, but nobody seems to want to play ball right now.

[Glork]

Sure they can. The dynamics of how the lynch went down can be

very

informative.

Plus, D1, there is zero reason not to lynch. Though I don't think he's a good lynch today, I will move to Joubert tomorrow if I absolutely must.

[Glork]

Yes. I agree completely. But realistically speaking, the level of activity in this game makes that virtually impossible. :/

[Glork]

Bah, go town. :/

[Glork]

Jesus balls, guys.

When I go batshit fucking loco on somebody D1 and later turn out to be protown, TAKE A FUCKING LOOK AT THAT PLAYER AND SEE WHY I WAS ALL OVER THEM LIKE STINK ON SHIT.

Shaka should have died D1, and then there would have been no issues whatsoever.




Also, I feel that the scums got EXTREMELY lucky that I was the Doctor. Guarantee, if anybody else was the Doc, I get protected and the scums fail on their kill. Seriously, guys.