Mini 545 - The Final Stand Mafia - Dramatic Finish!

[OhGodMyLife]

/confirm

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote: Trebis

because he's fun to pick on

[OhGodMyLife]

Her? Thats a male symbol under my avatar thankyouverymuch.

My body's recovery from new years was taking all of my time the past couple of days, my apologies. Khel, you're clearly overreacting to the mini bandwagon that formed on you. Pressure vote can mean a lot more than pressing for a role claim, and you've been reacting poorly under the pressure so far.

[OhGodMyLife]

Unvote: Trebis

There, no more bandwagon. No need to claim. I got feeling glork was mostly kidding, but whats with all this talk of claims already? This early in the game I feel like claims do nothing but help the scum aim their NKs.

[OhGodMyLife]

I unvoted because I didn't want to be part of a bandwagon yet. Seems a little premature to me.

[OhGodMyLife]

RD, sorry I missed your first question, I was only scanning the thread before, now I've actually got a little time. I think Khelvaster's reaction was poor just because it was so jumpy. The only reason to come to such an early conclusion about rolefishing in my eyes is if you've got something making you think people are going to be coming at you. Which isn't specifically pro- or anti-town, just notable.

As to your second point, it was Trebis who I was voting for, not Khelvaster, and its not that I thought he was in any real danger, it was the way in which Glork had voted that made me unvote. He made what seemed like an offhand comment about getting a claim out of it, but when asked about said comment, said it wasn't so offhand after all.

[OhGodMyLife]

I don't really see the case on OMGL, however. I'm getting the impression that OMGL's early play (esp. the random vote) is a reference to Newb 507, and as such really can't be used as evidence against OMGL.

Truth. 4 out of 7 people from Newbie 507 are in this game (soon to be three) and thats what I was referencing. The random votes between me and Trebis, at least from my side, were jokingly referring to the way that game ended.

I know it was Trebis you had your vote on. What stood out to me was your caution at a 2-vote wagon on Trebis while Khelvaster had 3 votes on him before Glork changed his vote. And I really don't see how Glork's vote could make you unvote. Can you elaborate?

It was not the number of votes that bothered me, but the manner in which Glork voted and then seemed to be serious about seeking a role claim. Additionally, my vote had been a random vote and I wasn't happy having it be part of any budding bandwagon. If I get involved in a bandwagon I'll have at least some small reason for placing the vote.

@Sangy, what play are you in? I used to do a ton of theater, so I totally understand how little free time you must have right now.

[OhGodMyLife]

Been trying to get in here and read enough of this thread to comment but the site keeps timing out. I've run out of time right now because posting in another game took approximately three times as long as it should have with all the CPU quota overload stuff, but hopefully MafiaScum will be running better tonight and I'll be able to actually read this thread.

[OhGodMyLife]

I've had a really bad case of the flu. Post coming, trying to catch up on several games simultaneously.

[OhGodMyLife]

Official confirmation from the mod would be good, but I think that was the hammer vote from killa seven just now. I don't like the policy lynch, but if the last vote count from Glork was right then thats what just happened. Shaka, you may have done it in the past, but it still makes me uncomfortable, since its an easy way for mafia to make sure of a mislynch.

I'm sorry that last flurry of votes happened before I finished reading through everything I had missed and could comment. I think killa is a big newb so everything he say should be seen through that light, and as a result I'm happy that its joubert who seems to be the one getting lynched here. Asking for a no lynch was scummy no matter how he defends it, as was bringing up all that jester BS. Overall his whole tone was just rubbing me the wrong way, and making him come off as scummy.

FoS: Shaka

for pushing the policy lynch

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote: Erg0

Glork's town alignment means his suspicions were exactly that... just suspicions. Yes, he's a good scum hunter, and it was almost definitely his reputation that got him NKed and not any suspicion on the scum's part that he was a power role, but in the end he had exactly as much information as any other townie. However, given that he was also suspicious of you, I find it extremely scummy for you to use that against Shaka. I also don't buy the "I was looking for a scummy response" defense of a retarded vote.

Minor FoS: Mizzy

because speculating about town power roles is not so good. Seems like you're fishing for information. On that note, RD, you probably shouldn't be doing so much set-up speculation either, though doing so about mafia roles is not as much of a problem.

@killa seven, why did you hammer joubert rather than letting him be lynched at deadline as was on its way to happening anyway? It would have given at least a little more time for useful discussion.

[OhGodMyLife]

OGML: as a general rule, cases which rely on me being a complete idiot don't tend to work out very well.

You know, that is an even worse way to defend yourself than saying you did something scummy to see what kind of reactions you would get.

[OhGodMyLife]

It seemed to me like you were using an incredibly WIFOM argument to try and get a misguided bandwagon started and keep the attention off of the questions that had been raised about you on day one.

[OhGodMyLife]

Well apparently you are seen as a complete idiot often enough to need to caution me about it. Mizzy certainly followed up the post where you voted shaka by shining the light of suspicion on him some more, which went right along with you.

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm back, and I've taken the time to reread the thread, during which a few recent posts really jumped out at me. Let's take a look at the scummy, shall we?

Official confirmation from the mod would be good, but I think that was the hammer vote from killa seven just now. I don't like the policy lynch, but if the last vote count from Glork was right then thats what just happened. Shaka, you may have done it in the past, but it still makes me uncomfortable, since its an easy way for mafia to make sure of a mislynch.

I'm sorry that last flurry of votes happened before I finished reading through everything I had missed and could comment. I think killa is a big newb so everything he say should be seen through that light, and as a result I'm happy that its joubert who seems to be the one getting lynched here. Asking for a no lynch was scummy no matter how he defends it, as was bringing up all that jester BS. Overall his whole tone was just rubbing me the wrong way, and making him come off as scummy.

FoS: Shaka

for pushing the policy lynch

First, let us take a look at a late D1 post, courtesy of OGML.

Observe how OGML is trying to have it both ways. He is explicitly supporting the Joubert lynch ("happy that Joubert is being lynched"), but he finds shaka!! scummy for... get this...

supporting the Joubert lynch

. That's a direct contradiction, and that's seriously scummy.

The post-lynch support for the lynch wagon is also pinging my scumdar, but it's nowhere near as strong a tell as trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

<snipped to save space>

Vote: Erg0

Glork's town alignment means his suspicions were exactly that... just suspicions. Yes, he's a good scum hunter, and it was almost definitely his reputation that got him NKed and not any suspicion on the scum's part that he was a power role, but in the end he had exactly as much information as any other townie. However, given that he was also suspicious of you, I find it extremely scummy for you to use that against Shaka. I also don't buy the "I was looking for a scummy response" defense of a retarded vote.

Minor FoS: Mizzy

because speculating about town power roles is not so good. Seems like you're fishing for information. On that note, RD, you probably shouldn't be doing so much set-up speculation either, though doing so about mafia roles is not as much of a problem.

@killa seven, why did you hammer joubert rather than letting him be lynched at deadline as was on its way to happening anyway? It would have given at least a little more time for useful discussion.

Now let us return to the scumminess that is OGML.

There are two HUGE problems with this post. First, OGML seems to know WAY too much about the reasons why Glork was killed. Why is this scummy? Well, there's a reason why the Mafia is also known as the informed minority, and it doesn't just cover knowing exactly who is Mafia and who is not.

The second, even more noteworthy problem is that OGML FoS'es Mizzy for a very valid reason, but diverts attention away from this by voting for Erg0 (with far weaker reasoning) and attacking RetroDucts in a way that suggests that Mizzy's setup speculation isn't really that bad (it is). In other words, OGML is pointing out Mizzy's scummy actions without actually attacking Mizzy. In my experience, this kind of play usually indicates distancing scum.

<snip>

Vote: OhGodMyLife
HoS: Mizzy

Tar, your first point against me is absolutely valid, and all I can say is that because I had been absent for a period of time leading up to the lynch, I was trying to get a lot of conflicting thoughts out at the same time. I was happy with the Joubert lynch because any lynch is better than a no-lynch, but I also wanted to express trepidation at the way it had happened.

The second point I can see looking back at my own post is also well founded, but I was simply expressing my opinion, albeit worded strongly, that Glork was an obvious choice for the NK because he is a high-profile scum hunter. I wanted to help put to rest needless discussion over whether or not the mafia had figured out somehow that he was the doctor.

The third point, about FoSing mizzy but voting Erg0, is where I have to disagree with you. I didn't think her role speculation was as big an issue as Erg0's blatant wifom in attacking Shaka, but I did think it needed to be pointed out. We seem to have a difference of opinion here about which is the more important scum tell. I thought Mizzy's was minor, especially in comparison to Erg0, and I just wanted to warn her not to engage in any more role speculation (thus the "Minor FoS").

[OhGodMyLife]

Still watching the thread, my access has been spotty this weekend but I'll be able to do a good read and post from work this week.

[OhGodMyLife]

Real post coming tomorrow. I left the notes on my reread at work, but I'm still happy with my Erg0 vote.

[OhGodMyLife]

OK, here we go. I'm going to bypass the khelvaster - retroducts debate in the beginning of the game because it was done to death yesterday and led nowhere. My main concern here is the development of the trebis/joubert bandwagon and how that lynch came to happen.

-Glork was the first to be outspoken in his anti-trebis position, and shortly thereafter (post 112) retroducts joins him in voting trebis with a (lack of) explanation that khelv and glork quickly called into question.
-Tar also chimes in, giving trebis an FoS in post 118, and RD explains himself in 119.
-Post 120 is interesting and got a laugh out of me on my reread for Mizzy's "WTFdar" comment. It fits her self-constructed meta of being a very cautious player.
-Trebis then asks to be replaced, drawing the comment from glork of "run up his replacement."
-Shortly after this, Erg0 replaces in and quickly gets in on the fun:

Oh yeah:

Vote: Trebis

He's got newbscum written all over him.

He quickly found the popular target, and also notably one that a now known pro-town player was keen on seeing lynched at the time. This is important because later he followed glork around some more. The explanation for this vote is also noticably lacking, which draws fire from khel and glork (the same two that went after RD for voting trebis for no reason earlier).
-After an exchange, glork gets "cold feet" on the trebis case and unvotes, and he later stated that it was because of the way Erg0 attacked trebis. Khel however defends Erg0 on this point, saying he seems more like "lazy town."
-Thats it for Trebis, as Joubert replaces in and quickly makes himself an easy target by calling for a day one no-lynch. This draws Glork's vote once more, and this comment from Erg0:

Glork, I take it you're feeling the wagon again?

He really seems to be going out of his way to make sure he and glork are on the same page.
-Post 195, Mizzy puts on FoS on joubert in another show of cautious play.
-Post 200 is a doozie, as Joubert spouts a stream of stupid and sexism all rolled into one. Between this and his no-lynch suggestion, its difficult to deduce much from those who jumped on his case after he replaced trebis. I'll do what I can though.
-Joubert introduces the jester BS in 210, further convoluting things. In between 200 and 210 the notable reactions were an HoS from TJM and Shaka being tempted to "pull a glork" on joubert.
-Mizzy, Khel and Tar all vote joubert in quick succession. Mizzy had previously laid out suspicions, and tar does so in his vote post, but khel doesn't expound much on his reasoning for the vote. Tar's vote means Joubert is at L-1.
-Glork calls for a claim, tar echoes this while unvoting to prevent quickhammers. Joubert whines about this, but does finally explain his reasoning for requesting a no-lynch.
-Glork unvotes with a warning that his vote could easily come back without proper explanation, Tar revotes to keep L-2 while calling for answers to specific questions which Joubert has failed to provide.
-Post 236, Glork has changed his mind on Joubert and thinks we're likely to find scum among Erg0, Khel and Tar. He votes for tar, as far as I can tell the choice is arbitrary out of the three of them.
-Then this exchange happens:

Right. Believe it or not, I passed over both it and the first time you askedme to answer it.


Q:

Glork: In light of this discussion, I'm curious as to why you included Mizzy in your tentative pro-town list in post 92?

A: Post 84 felt

very

protown to me... I had asked Mizzy if she thought Khelv was making up his misinterpretation of "pressure vote" and she just flat-out stated that she wasn't sure and that she wanted to dig around more. I don't really know why, but that rings genuine to me. It reads like a post I might make in that situation.



Now, regarding your second point: No, I don't think I have a meta on you. I think that your initial vote was a bit opportunistic (that's why I said I felt like I was getting cold feet), and I have another minor tell that I don't yet want to divulge (because I'm honestly unsure exactly how reliable it is at this point, hence the "minor"ness of the tell). If anything, the unnamed tell is a meta on players in general. The former is based purely on your attitude towards Joubert, whom I have decided is probably not scum anymore.

I'm not really feeling the Joubert thing any more either - his entrance was weird, but I think I understand where he's getting his ideas from now.

Unvote

while I re-read.

One more very obvious case of Erg0 wanting to be in the same camp as Glork. *sings* We're following the leader, the leader, the leader...
-Killa Seven replaces in, providing another distracting side quest between him and TJM. In post 286, TJM turns his vote on Joubert, who was trying to put to rest discussion of him bringing up the jester in the first place.
-Upcoming deadline forces the lynch issue, at which point Shaka states that our best bet is with killa or joubert. When questioned, he reveals that his primary basis for lynching either of them is because they'll only be distracting.
-Mizzy unvotes joubert while she rereads, then comes to the same conclusion and revotes him a couple of posts later. She admits that its in part because any lynch is better than a no lynch.
-Shaka finally votes, very scummily:

shaka, you still haven't told me who you think is actually scummy and why you haven't done more to try to get them lynched.

If I had found someone scummy I would be pushing their lynch very hard right now. The reason why I was to settle on Joubert or Killa is because I don't find anyone scummy and in a deadline situation I'd rather go for broke rather then no lynch.

I was really hoping on a reread in day 2 to try and weed out some new information based on the night kills and new information that comes out of the night.

Joubert that post you just made is making this a whole lot harder for me, but with the deadline coming to a close I don't have much choice.

vote: Joubert

Deadlines are after all a scum's best friend.
-Killa seven lays the hammer without much thought.

And that is the (somewhat abridged) story of how Joubert came to be lynched. I'm leaving my vote on Erg0 because of his scummy entry onto the Trebis bandwagon, and the way he followed Glork's opinion around all day. I also still find his actions on day two scummy, but I'll have to address that in an upcoming post, I have actual work to do here today.

FoS: Shaka

as well for those things I pointed out in the trebis/joubert lynch, and because I agree with much of the case that has been built against him by others today.

[OhGodMyLife]

I am still waiting for something even remotely contributive from killa before voicing my opinions. I'm pretty ticked that he's shrugging the whole game off.

Mizzy, nothing to say on tar's case on Shaka? Mine on Erg0? Shaka's or Erg0's defenses? There's a lot more going on in this game than killa lurking.

Additionally, I brought up your personal meta of being a very cautious player in my post for a reason. I don't think it is scummy, but I do think it is not helpful. Aggression is the town's greatest asset. Sitting back waiting for things to happen which you can respond to and probe will not win this game. I think the days long lull in which literally nobody posted anything of value is proof of that. Glork mentioned it late day one, but I'll reiterate, the scum must love this town right now for its seeming utter disinterest.

[OhGodMyLife]

Also, I think you're missing my point.

Objectively, there are two possible explanations for my vote

:

1. I was attempting a gambit to get shaka speedlynched, and was too dimwitted to realise that it wasn't going to work.

2. I was deliberately advocating a fallacious argument in order to gauge the reactions of the other players.

What I'm asking you to do is to follow your argument through to its logical conclusion, and then consider whether that solution is supported by the facts.

I've bolded the biggest problem I have with this leading question. Objectively, I'd like to humbly propose a third explanation for your vote:

3. Your day one play was under scrutiny because it was scummy, so you tried to redirect focus elsewhere. If Shaka were somehow run up for what you said, bonus for you, but this was not necessarily your intention.

It was considerably easier for you to defend yourself from the original WIFOM with further WIFOM, this time along the lines of "Do you really think I'm this stupid." I posit that no, you're not stupid enough to think it would work, but you do think we're stupid enough to let you get away with an "I'm not that stupid" defense of what was undeniably a scummy move. And you did accomplish this third objective, for until I reread day one and posted about it, nobody had gone back and looked at what it was about your play day one that was pinging scumdars. Your scummy action at the beginning of day two took the focus off of the evidence from day one, and you had an easier time defending simply against the accusations of mudslinging and WIFOM than against everything you'd done the previous day.

The facts have been considered, and I still think you're scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

Apologies for the triple post.

I'd like you to clarify why my entry onto the Trebis bandwagon was scummy. Is it because I voted without a case? Is it because it was the most popular wagon at the time? If the former, note that I provided a case when asked. If the latter, consider that there's a reason why the wagon was popular - namely that Trebis was behaving in a very scummy way.

Both of these reasons. You should have provided a case to begin with, instead you took time to formulate one that would jive with popular opinion of trebis. The most popular wagon bit is also important, as quickly attacking the most popular target upon replacing is a scum tell in my books. I don't believe that Trebis's actions were overly scummy at the time, more along the lines of unhelpful, and the votes on him to that point seemed to be geared towards getting him into a mode that would help the town. Instead it put him on the defensive in a bad way, but that was Trebis's poor play under pressure which you exploited to join a bandwagon on a townie.

[OhGodMyLife]

ogml makes a good case on ergo, im going to re read a few pages then

vote

post content

, i have more time now since i was lynched in my other game.

There you go, killa, I fixed that post of yours so you can actually be helpful in this game.

[OhGodMyLife]

Mizzy, this defense of Shaka is duly noted, especially given all your previous interactions with him. I may be alone in barking up Erg0's tree right now, but Shaka is the prime suspect for a large contingent of the active players. If he is scum, you're going to have a lot to answer for.

I am glad to see you're now willing to use your vote instead of FoSing and fence-sitting, its a much better way to take an active role in the game.

Just because you think something is obvscum doesn't mean it actually is. Conversely, just because you think something is obvtown doesn't mean it actually is. I know Erg0 has a bit more than that for a case on him, but this feels like the core to that, and

I feel like OGML is using it to hide himself from his past scummy actions.

Please elucidate on what scummy actions you think I've taken, especially any you think I haven't already answered to today.

[OhGodMyLife]

OGML:

Just because I don't think Shaka is scummy enough to vote (or even FoS right now) doesn't mean I don't still intend to keep an eye on him. If you want to put words into my mouth and actions on my plate, feel free, but I will bite your hand off if it comes too close. Just because you say things were said and proclaim things happened doesn't mean that they actually did. Misrepresenting words and actions is anti-town and you would be advised to not pull such scummy-ass bullshit in the future if you are pro-town.

Mizzy, where exactly am I putting words into your mouth or actions on your plate? I interpreted what you did as I see it, which is a far cry from misrepresentation.

I also find it interesting that you accuse me of defending shaka when my post was clearly more about the case on Erg0 than the case on shaka. If I could be accused of defending anyone, it wouldn't be shaka. And yes, before you bother trying to shove more crap down my throat, I AM defending Erg0's intelligence at the very least.

I don't doubt that Erg0 is an intelligent person, I would even go so far as to say that everyone who plays mafia on this site is highly intelligent, but that doesn't change the fact that he made a play which I found scummy and then presented it as though there were only two possible reasons for this play when that wasn't the case.

As to what makes you scummy? I'm not going to bother rehashing everything when I don't have time and you can't be f*cked (look, censoring!) to remember, check my post #389 and Tarhalindur's post #393. Just answering them doesn't make them less scummy.

OK, so when I answer accusations leveled against me it doesn't make those actions any less scummy, but the same obviously isn't true of either Erg0 or Shaka, as you said that they both "answered for themselves really well," and are therefore no higher than a 3.5 on your scum scale. What puts me in a different category for you? Hey, I know, when we finish hashing this out, can I shake your hand and be in your good graces again, like you and Shaka did on day one?

I am glad to see you're now willing to use your vote instead of FoSing and fence-sitting, its a much better way to take an active role in the game.

Considering the fact that I have been much more active in this game than you have, I suggest you save your snide remarks for someone who cares.

If I'm trying to make a snide comment, you'll know it. For example, see the last sentence of the preceding paragraph. In this instance, my comment was in no way snide, it was really meant to be encouraging. Yes, you were far more active than me on day one, but your play style did not lend itself to putting much pressure on people. You took flak for this, you explained yourself as a very cautious player and built up this convenient meta, and continued to sit back. Now you're up out of your armchair going at it with me, and look! The game is moving forward! Whoop-de-doo! I think it was Retroducts who encouraged more hullabaloos, which is what we've got now, and its a GOOD THING.

Mod: Please just replace killa seven.

He's out in the queues signing up for more games, but he's not even PLAYING in this one, so I'd appreciate it if we could get somebody in here who would actually participate. As for the rest of you who keep posting the "content pending" posts, we're waiting on you.

[OhGodMyLife]

Errrr.. wut? That second post is in contradiction with the first and it's an OMGUS vote (revenge vote) too. I'm now considering whether you are newb town or newb scum, and I'm favoring the second.

Actually, I did some thinking on that, and I concluded that he most likely is noob town. I can't be sure, obviously, but here's why I think he's noobtown:

As we have probably all seen, in a newbie game, there is a tell where a noob who is plain townie will often times get bored with the game and go elsewhere, leaving the game behind. He is asking for /in in a ton of games, and the majority of games played here will give him a townie role...so I'm thinking he's just bored of plain townie and wants either a game where he is not many or wants to be in many other games to keep from being bored.

I concur. All he's done this game is stall and cast reactionary OMGUS votes. I'm think I just got OMGUSed for asking for his replacement. Can't be sure of course, since he didn't really say anything about his vote one way or the other. This reads to me like he's bored with the game, and he obviously doesn't care enough to actually read the thread or think about whats going on. Like Mizzy said, its pretty likely he's just a bored newb town who wants something more exciting than the role he has here.

@Killa

, (bolded so you actually read this part) please either take an interest in this game or request to be replaced. You are leeching the fun out of the game with your bad sportsmanship. I don't know if you've taken the time to notice, but there are other people trying to play, and we're all suffering because of your refusal to actually participate.

[OhGodMyLife]

Let me ask you a counter question, killa. Why did you vote me in the first place? Without knowing that, I don't know how to answer your question.

This game is not simply about answering questions asked of you, and if thats all you think it is you're not going to get very far. But since you seem to think you don't have to do anything except answer questions, let me ask you another one..

Killa seven: Will you please

read the whole thread

and present your opinions, based on your own analysis, of who you think is scum and why?

[OhGodMyLife]

mizzy who is your top 2 scum suspects other than omgl

I'm keeping an eye on Khelvaster and TheJiveMachine.

Mizzy, what about these two stands out to you?

Mod, vote count please

[OhGodMyLife]

Okay, basically I'm still fine with my vote where it is, OGML's contradiction remains the scumtell that stands out strongest for me.

I too question whether you've even read the thread since you voted.

[OhGodMyLife]

Hey Killa, you neglected to answer my question, which was pointedly directed at you to elicit participation. I mean, didn't you say if anyone had questions for you you'd answer them?

Killa seven: Will you please

read the whole thread

and present your opinions, based on your own analysis, of who you think is scum and why?

[OhGodMyLife]

didnt i just state i think tjm is scummy and why? illl do a pbp of him i guess to satisfy u

That would be a great start. You should get into the habit of doing real analysis in all of your games, not just when somebody is unsatisfied with your play.

[OhGodMyLife]

Killa:

That is all way old material and TJM is not the only one who voted to lynch Joubert. I would like to see more recent case points.

Does the age of the material make it in any way less telling? I don't like this post at all. I actually think killa makes some good points that you shouldn't be so willing to brush off. Its especially interesting given that he pointed out a possible connection with you, and you seem to want to write off killa's case altogether.

Also you never answered my earlier question:

mizzy who is your top 2 scum suspects other than omgl

I'm keeping an eye on Khelvaster and TheJiveMachine.

Mizzy, what about these two stands out to you?

[OhGodMyLife]

I think killa seven has actually made a compelling case. I have some comments on it that I'm going to withhold until I have time to make a real post (Its 2 AM and I'm procrastinating on my paper too much already ) but if TJM doesn't get back here and actually contribute something of meaning very soon my vote is switching to him. The deadline is looming and unless he has a very convincing reason to the contrary I think he's the play.

[OhGodMyLife]

What I mind is when someone fills their posts with a bunch of crap wit and retorts and tries to pass it off as content.

This is the worst insult I have ever received in a mafia game. My wit happens to sparkling, and I'm not passing retorts off as content, I am interspersing my content with retorts.

tjm day 2 break down..

post 354

Sucks that we lost the doctor so early...

Anyone have reasons for suspecting shaka other than Glork dying?

this is his first post in day 2, he asks a question about why shakra is being suspected.

This post is more important than just his questioning of the attack on shaka. IIRC, somebody else pointed it out when it happened, but remarking about the death of the doctor is a pretty reliable scumtell. Not something I'd be willing to base a lynch on by itself, but it certainly adds to the whole picture of TJM as scum.

[

You were too silent in Day 1 for my liking. Want to give us your thoughts on it?

The flavor basically confirms that there is a godfather, or at least that the scum are working for someone flavorwise.

Assuming there is a godfather the flavor text also leads me to believe he didn't perform this nightkill, or possibly that he can't be the one to NK period.

The town-aligned doctor thing doesn't seem to mean anything to me. Alignment followed by role is basically meant to avoid confusion, not imply things about other alignments' roles. Still, I don't assume the scum don't have a doctor/roleblocker/whatever.

As for suspecting people based on the fact that Glork was the one killed, I don't think it is a wise strategy to go on that alone, as it is obvious WIFOM, and, as mentioned, Glork is an excellent scumhunter and high-profile target no matter who the scum are.

tjm believes there is a godfather or the scum are working for someone other then a a whole group. and he says glork was killed because he has a good rep for scum hunting.

I'm going to parrot tarhalindur's favorite scumtell here and call this one Information Instead of Analysis. Killa sums it up without taking it for what it is. This was TJM's meatiest post of the day, and all it is is setup speculation and nightkill speculation. Neither of those things are getting us anywhere.

Aside from those two points, I think killa has very adequately outlined TJM's strategy of looking active without being active. He makes nonsense posts (deeeerp) in response to attacks, deflects others with jokes (I'm being suspected based on math LOLZ) and generally stalls, telling us reasons for his lurking and promising future content without ever delivering. His voting record is also suspect, as he joins the Joubert bandwagon at the height of its popularity with little original thought, and today glomps onto Tar's case against me and sticks to it to the exclusion of, it seems, even bothering to read anything else thats going on.

I think killa seven has actually made a compelling case. I have some comments on it that I'm going to withhold until I have time to make a real post (Its 2 AM and I'm procrastinating on my paper too much already ) but if TJM doesn't get back here and actually contribute something of meaning very soon my vote is switching to him. The deadline is looming and unless he has a very convincing reason to the contrary I think he's the play.

The case is really built around lurking and the lack of contribution. I don't like either count against JTM, but I also know that those traits are not indicative of scum all the time. Lemme do me some meta on him to make sure of my feelings on the situation and I will come back with my findings.

This, along with post 498 which I commented on earlier, really read like you're now stalling on TJM's behalf.

There's been a lot of WIFOM from Erg0. It's bugging me, but when he's not putting wine in front of us, he's making sense. I would ask you, Erg0, not to assume scum are simple enough to fall for a gambit like you pulled. I don't believe the 'risk' was as small as you believed and the return was, in this case anyway, even smaller. Or was it? lol. Did you learn anything from it?

Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds that Erg0 was tossing around a lot of BS today. I do agree that he makes valid contributions when he's not WIFOMing his own defense, though.

Unvote: Erg0

, though I still find you suspect

Vote: TheJiveMachine

FoS: Mizzy

, being cautious and noncommittal may be your playstyle, but I'm finding it hard to ignore the likelihood of a connection between you and TJM, and the two in combination make me think you're very likely to be scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

I apologize if it stung, but that is how most of your posts (and a good many of TJM's posts, too) come off as to me. Yes, there is some good content in what you say, but your fluff "witty" inserts cheapen the content to me and make you seem much less sincere in my eyes.

Sorry, I probably should have put my comment about that in [sarcasm] tags because it was largely facetious. I don't take attacks in mafia games personally. I do however have a high opinion of my own wit because I know I rule. (again with the [sarcasm])

I'm very committal in my vote on you; that FoS comes off as a good bit of OMGUS. I was pretty committed to thinking Joubert was scum D1 and I was wrong...too many wrong guesses looses games. I am attempting to learn from my mistakes.

No, its not OMGUS, my FoS is based on things you have done since voting for me, apart from that event. OMGUS would have been an immediate response in kind, with little or no reasoning. I've explained my reasons for suspecting you, they're unrelated to the fact that you've voted for me.

[OhGodMyLife]

Yes, sorry, I'm posting as I can from work when things slow down here.

Interesting that you bring up the Joubert wagon...I think it might be important to keep in mind that Killa hammered Joubert and claimed that it was a mistake because he hadn't realized he was at -1L.

I also find it interesting that Khel also pulled the "glomps onto a case without reading anything else that's going on" and he hasn't really been looked at.

I agree that both killa laying down the hammer vote and khel's entrance onto the wagon are important things to remember. Khel in particular has been strangely silent of late, as you previously pointed out, and similarly for me he is a person of interest.

No, I don't want TJM lynched until he has had a chance to claim and respond adequately to some of what is being said. He was at -2L before the two votes today and I don't want a quicklynch after a d1 mislynch.

Thats not how I read what you were saying before mine and tar's recent votes. It seemed like you were most interested in preventing the wagon from going forward altogether, both through discrediting killa seven's case and waxing philisophical on the value of lurker lynches while asking for time to meta him.

[OhGodMyLife]

Mod

, could we have a full fledged vote count? Also, please

prod

Khelvaster and TheJiveMachine.

I think we're all in agreement here and need to hear from TJM to continue on that front.

I'd like to hear more from tar and shaka (good luck in your match by the way) before deadline as well.

And finally, killa seven, I still need an answer to my earlier question, as RD pointed out:

killa seven

- OGML asked you this questions and you still haven't answered:

Let me ask you a counter question, killa.

Why did you vote me in the first place?

[OhGodMyLife]

I don't know what to say...I'm still here though.

Really? Nothing at all? This isn't making me feel any better about you.

[OhGodMyLife]

OK, I had Mizzy pegged as TJM's partner after yesterday, so I'm gonna need to re-read some sections of the game before proceeding since I was obviously wrong and now I need a new suspect.

I'd like to point out that I am pretty much completely sold on killa seven's townness right now. He made a serious post that in my opinion pushed the TJM lynch over the edge where it might not have happened before the deadline otherwise, and on top of that jive only ever voted for three players this whole game: Joubert (town), yeahthatguy224/killa seven, and me. He never really brought anything new to the table against either killa or myself, and knowing the alignment of two out of those three makes me confident that the third is the same.

[OhGodMyLife]

Blarg I spent too much time tonight having to redo a big long post in another game because my computer had an aneurysm just as I was about to be done with it, so I'll have to postpone by reread until I have had some sleep.

Will be rereading tomorrow. This post serves as a bump to remind everybody else they should reread the thread too.

[OhGodMyLife]

Will be posting later today, I've got a free afternoon devoted to catching up on a few games I'm behind in.

Going to be V/LA from Wednesday to Saturday though, going to a friend's beach house for spring break and won't have internet access.

[OhGodMyLife]

Got back last night from my vacation, playing catch-up in all of my games right now. I will be getting to this one soon since its pretty much the only one that didn't have a sudden four page burst of activity in the three days I was away.

[OhGodMyLife]

I find it very interesting that Sierra continuously pointed Jive out over the course of day two but never actually voted for him even with the deadline.

I find it even more interesting that Sierra is now ignoring a very solid case against Khelvaster by RD and Tar, and his continued ghostly, barely-there activity levels. That, along with the way he threw out a vote based on old suspicions which were never really good to begin with and then backtracked on it (Wait a minute! Wasn't backtracking the thing you were suspicious of Erg0 for doing in the first place?), and did the same "Hey I know it looks scummy," schtick that TJM pulled yesterday, is more than enough for me.

Vote: Khelvaster

FoS: Sierra

[OhGodMyLife]

I really don't buy khel's claim, but even if its true he's still the right play today. RD points out exactly why: he will simply lurk and hammer whoever he has the chance to tomorrow.

[OhGodMyLife]

In Post 95 he expanded on this, noting a pretty valid reason why this might be considered scummy, yet calls it neither "pro- or anti-town, just notable."

At the time, I didn't want to come out and directly say it but I thought it could either be a scum-tell or a power-role-tell. Thats why I worded that statement the way I did. Given his claim it obviously wasn't the latter.

I don't believe we are getting anything more from this day. Khelvaster should be lynched ASAP.

[OhGodMyLife]

Woah! Bingo!

I think we can be confident that RD's death was the result of either a one-shot vig or a very cautious full vig, so good shooting, Tex. You've made me happy enough to almost be able to block out the memory of the painful memory of that WTF moment when Khel turned out to be vanilla town.

Sierra I think is right about Erg0's comment, looks like a clue for just this sort of situation.

Right now I think the final scum is one of Tar or Sierra. I pointed out my suspicions of the latter yesterday and they haven't changed, and I'll elucidate more on the former once I get a chance to make a longer post and go back over Erg0's posts for other possible investigation clues.

Also, I think the time may be ripe for a massclaim... thoughts?

[OhGodMyLife]

Tar, I agree with you on the probable remaining roles.

Shaka, I think it is nigh impossible that we have an SK rather than a vig of some kind.

If the vig is a one-shot, I think they should claim immediately. At this stage, the scum can't counterclaim without losing the game, and that one-shot has already been used, so you can essentially narrow down the field of suspects from five to four.

That said, I already have narrowed down my field of suspects to three because rereading Erg0 in isolation makes me all but positive he had an innocent on shaka. In hindsight it looks like his early day two vote of shaka really was a fishing expedition using his confirmed townie as bait, and the post Sierra quoted becomes a glaringly obvious road sign since Erg0's death. I didn't see any other obvious hints as to another investigation, though I think its very plausible that he investigated mizzy the night she died.

[OhGodMyLife]

im here sorry, so was shelv lying about the survivor role or does it now just show up?

It would have shown up as such if he had been telling the truth. Obviously at that point he thought it was the only way for him to avoid being lynched. It was bad play, but is no longer important. Why is this the only thing you cared to comment on?

Everybody:
I would appreciate if you could voice your opinion as to whether you agree with my conclusion that Erg0 had an innocent on Shaka!!, as reaching a consensus on this will be very helpful moving forward.

Additionally, I would like to see from everybody a ranking from most willing to least willing to lynch of the remaining five players. Here's mine:
-Sierra/Tarhalindur
-Killa seven
-OhGodMyLife
-Shaka!!

[OhGodMyLife]

Those are the main points I had in mind when I came to the conclusion that tar is a good bet for scum.

In particular it strikes me as odd that he would have missed the IIoA out of TJM when he was so focused on that as the crux of his case against Shaka. This is not something I would expect town-tar to miss (I've been playing in a lot of games with him recently, so I'm beginning to develop a meta on him). The fact that it now seems obvious shaka is town makes it more striking that tar was on his case and only came over to the TJM wagon when I pointed out the discrepancy.

I still need to go back over the whole game and decide for sure which of you (Sierra/Tar) I think is a better lynch for the day, though. Given that its become something of a showdown between the two of you I'm not just going to buy your whole case against him without doing my own analysis.

[OhGodMyLife]

Time for some analysis of voting patterns.

Khelvaster:TOWN - 2 (RetroDucts:SCUM,

Tarhalindur:???

)
yeahthatguy224/

killa seven

: ??? - 1 (Mizzy:TOWN)
TheJiveMachine:SCUM - 1 (TheJiveMachine:SCUM)
Glork:TOWN - 1 (yeahthatguy224/

killa seven

: ???)
Sangy/

Sierra

: ??? - 1 (Glork:TOWN)
OhGodMyLife - 1 (Trebis:TOWN)
Trebis:TOWN - 1 (OhGodMyLife)

I take this one with a grain of salt because it was mostly the random voting phase.

Trebis:TOWN - 2 (Glork:TOWN, Retroducts:SCUM)
Sangy/

Sierra

: ??? - 1 (

Tarhalindur:???

)
RetroDucts:SCUM - 1 (Khelvaster:TOWN)
Glork:TOWN - 1 (yeahthatguy224/

killa seven

: ???)

Joubert:TOWN - 4 (Mizzy:TOWN, Retroducts:SCUM,

Tarhalindur:???

, Khelvaster:TOWN)
Tarhalindur:??? - 1 (Glork:TOWN)
yeahthatguy224/

killa seven

: ??? - 1 (TheJiveMachine:SCUM)

Joubert:TOWN - 7 (Mizzy:TOWN, Retroducts:SCUM,

Tarhalindur:???

, Khelvaster:TOWN, TheJiveMachine:SCUM, killa seven:???, Shaka!!:TOWN?)
Shaka!!:TOWN? - 1 (Glork:TOWN)
Not Voting: OhGodMyLife, Joubert:TOWN, Erg0:TOWN,

Sangy/

Sierra

: ???

Erg0:TOWN - 2 (OhGodMyLife, Khelvaster:TOWN)
TheJiveMachine:SCUM - 2 (Retroducts:SCUM, Erg0:TOWN)
OhGodMyLife - 2 (

Tarhalindur:???

, TheJiveMachine:SCUM)
Mizzy:TOWN - 1 (shaka!!:TOWN?)

TheJiveMachine:SCUM - 3 (Retroducts:SCUM, Erg0:TOWN, killa seven:???)
Erg0:TOWN - 2 (Khelvaster:TOWN, OhGodMyLife)
OhGodMyLife - 2 (Mizzy:TOWN, TheJiveMachine:SCUM)
shaka!!:TOWN? - 1 (

Tarhalindur:SCUM

)

TheJiveMachine:SCUM - 5 (Retroducts:SCUM, Erg0:TOWN, killa seven:???,

Tarhalindur:???

, OhGodMyLife)
Erg0:TOWN - 1 (Khelvaster:TOWN)
OhGodMyLife - 2 (Mizzy:TOWN, TheJiveMachine:SCUM)
Not Voting:

Sierra:???

, shaka!!:TOWN?

Khelvaster:TOWN - 3 (OhGodMyLife, killa seven:???,

Tarhalindur:???

)
shaka!!:TOWN? - 1 (

Sierra:???

)

Khelvaster:TOWN - 5 (shaka!!:TOWN?, Erg0:TOWN, killa seven:???,

Tarhalindur:???

, OhGodMyLife)
shaka!!:TOWN? - 1 (

Sierra:???

)

SIERRA: Neither Sangy nor Sierra ever used their vote during days one and two. To me, this is scummy, especially Sierra's dancing around the issue of actually voting TJM when he was calling him scummy all of the second day. When he finally did vote, on day three, it was against Shaka!! who for all intents and purposes is a confirmed townie at this point.

TARHALINDUR: Tar on the other hand has been very busy with his vote throughout the game. However, the only person he's ever voted whose alignment we don't now know is Sierra, and other than that he's been wagoning townies left and right. When he did join the TJM wagon it had already become inevitable and it was only after I pointed out that TJM had been exhibiting the very same scum tell (one I learned from Tar no less) that he had been after Shaka!! all day for. From my experience playing with him, Tarhalindur is not a player I would expect to miss something like that. He gets onto the joubert wagon comfortably in the middle and made strong cases against both myself and mizzy early day two. Day three he was smack in the middle of the khelv wagon, and easy play to make, whilst Sierra sticks out like a sore thumb going after shaka. All of this, and general inclination for tar to be voting with RD in the early game and TJM's willingness to follow him in day two lead me to one conclusion.

Vote: Tarhalindur

If tar is not the final scum, I can't see it being anybody but Sierra.

SHAKA: Practically cop confirmed innocent
KILLA SEVEN: Helped bring case around against TJM, pushing wagon into lynching territory. Killa's predecessor is also one of the only people Jive ever voted for. In the context they happened, neither of these look like bussing to me.
OHGODMYLIFE: I know I'm town, but to make it extra clear, as others have pointed out, Jive happily glomped onto one point of Tar's case on me and parked his vote there for the rest of day two.

[OhGodMyLife]

...that changes things. Fake-claiming vig would be suicide, so I believe it.

Are you a full vig or a one shot?

Updated scum list:

1. Sierra
2. Killa Seven

Unvote, Vote: Sierra

[OhGodMyLife]

Shaka!! won't mind seeing me gone after my accusations last day

Give him some credit, he'll lynch you because you're scummy not because of OMGUS.

[OhGodMyLife]

Shaka, in post 620 I stated my reasoning for suspecting sierra, though at that time I voted tar.

Obviously with tar's claim, its come down to a combination of this evidence and a process of elimination. You are cop-confirmed innocent, tar is claimed vig, and IMO Jive's actions days one and two make killa seven unlikely scum. This leaves Sierra being both the only person I see a real case against and the only person I don't see strong evidence for being town. Thus, to Sierra I would say "die scum die."

[OhGodMyLife]

Er... I didn't want to seem like a self-centered jerk, so I didn't restate my evidence for making me even more obviously town that killa seven, but they're in post 620 too. If sierra isn't scum, its k7 and not me. See the ridiculous play by TJM in latching onto tar's case against me and not letting go until he was dead.

[OhGodMyLife]

This will all be a moot point when we lynch Sierra-scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

Stalling? I am advocating the immediate lynch of Sierra so we can prove tar and myself right and not have to worry about whether or not you think I'm scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

If anything, Sierra asking us to hold off so he can give his opinion on the last scum because "I'm not it" is the only stalling thats going on here. In the two days since he promised that you seem to have convinced yourself that I'm scum, which I'm sure is making him very happy.

[OhGodMyLife]

No saying it will be a moot point tomorrow meant that I

don't

think there will be one because I am more than reasonably sure lynching Sierra is the scum lynch today.

[OhGodMyLife]

I think I need to add "trying to stall the lynch" to my list of major scumtells. I also think that Sierra needs to be lynched posthaste.

QFT

Maybe after this one I can stop stealing all of your scum tells and come up with some of my own. You need a catchy name for this one too though, like you have for IIoA and The Chainsaw Defense.

[OhGodMyLife]

What?... I... who?...

Shaka!! was the scum?

Erg0, who the heck

did

you investigate this game?

Also, go town! Thanks for crosskilling each other guys

[OhGodMyLife]

Yeah killa seven, go us! *high five*

What happened to us after Erg0's death is why I disagree with the use of random chance based roles.

I'm interested in why the mafia didn't make kills on nights one and two. Or did you guys just target the same person as the SK? It certainly set up tar's vig claim perfectly.

[OhGodMyLife]

Well apparently it wouldn't have mattered then if Glork got protected or not, since two killing parties went after him.

Guess you really are just that good, Glork

[OhGodMyLife]

Also retro why'd you guys target mizzy after the tjm lynch? I was really ready to take her down the next day.

[OhGodMyLife]

Erg0, in a mini normal I really wasn't expecting a cop with sanity issues, and I looked at your 75% thing as the hint you were leaving us just in case you died but that wouldn't be so obvious as to get you killed. Guess I'll be a little more skeptical of cop results in future mini normals

D_O, I did quite enjoy this game, and thought you did a good job with the modding and narration, so thank you for that. You're right that the town pretty much got lucky at the end.