Mini 545 - The Final Stand Mafia - Dramatic Finish!

[RetroDucts]

/confirm

[RetroDucts]

I don't think I want to random vote this time. I actually think Tarhalindur could be onto something.

Vote: Khelvaster

[RetroDucts]

DERP BANDWAGON

DERP DERP DERP

These are my thoughts on RetroDucts and shaka

Is there something about Khelvaster having 3 votes on him that worries you?

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Mizzy, the sooner we're out of the random stage, the better, imo. Khelvaster's late entrance seemed a good enough place to start. And like Trebis said, with 7 to lynch, 3's not too much of a concern.

Jive, I'm actually curious about how shaka's vote, which was apparently 'for shits and giggles', came across to you as bandwagoning.

[RetroDucts]

Rolefishing?

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But you thought it was 'rather apparent' anyway, which means to me that, by your own logic, it couldn't have pressured Khelvaster (or anyone) too much at all.

A vote putting me at -4 is really nothing to be concerned of. I even think Shaka is town because of this. The WIFOM is quite apparent, but I really don't think scum would go do anything so revealing so soon.

Why would it be revealing if, as you say, an L-4 vote is nothing to be concerned of?

[RetroDucts]

The fact that his vote wans't actually a pressure vote doesn't change his intentions.

If I'm reading this correctly, you believe that Shaka's intention was to get a role claim out of you (on page 2) and this is what you've based your vote on. I think that's a bit of a reach.

[RetroDucts]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.

Unvote

The misinterpretation doesn't change the fact that it was a reach. Unless it wasn't a reach. Do you think it wasn't?


Why exactly did you unvote, OGMY?

[RetroDucts]

Sorry about the OhGodMyLife typo. :D

Pressure vote can mean a lot more than pressing for a role claim, and you've been reacting poorly under the pressure so far.

I'd like OGM

L

to tell us more about how Khelvaster had been reacting poorly and what he thinks that means. What

is

a poor reaction? This post comes across to me as if to say Khelv's posts have been consistently unreasonable and badly composed or something and I can't say I agree with that. There's also that other question from my last post.


Khelvaster, before shaka voted for you, if I had said, "Hey, I'm scum. Tell me your role," would you have believed me?

How ever I did find it odd how everyone seemed to question why Khel had assumed I was role fishing, people use pressure a lot when trying to get someone to claim, I think it would be highly likely that one or two scum are hiding with the townies how had questioned the vote.

? How does this occur to you? In his previous post he noted that he thought you were even town then votes for you, apparently non-randomly, saying you're rolefishing. What's so odd about questioning this?


Mizzy, you seem to be suggesting what the motivations behind our actions are quite a bit. Don't you think it would be more interesting to wait and see what the player to whom a question was directed had to say themselves?

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I was talking about other times. Specifically, post 32 when I asked JiveMachine a question, post 64 where you provide a reason for shaka's vote and post 70 when you explain Glorks vote.

[RetroDucts]

I give my opinions in an attempt to help the game progress...would you prefer I lurk and give no actual content to the game?

Not at all! I just think that people answering questions, or suggesting answers, for other players diminishes the questions' effectiveness. We can't be sure how this may influence the answer we would have received. I try to avoid answering or responding to anything that wasn't directed at me so that we can receive the most genuine response to every post. This doesn't stop us from posting content.

I unvoted because I didn't want to be part of a bandwagon yet. Seems a little premature to me.

Trebis was at L-5 and I think this game's 'maturing' as we speak. Did Khelv being at L-4 worry you at all? He's at L-5 now, is that wagon premature as well? Also, can you respond to what I wrote in post 85?

On a much more relevant note,
FoS: RetroDucts for trying to set me up like that. He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim; he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

So you think he could have been

town

trying to get a role claim out of you?

Thanks for the meta-example, but I see no reason why you can't have acted similarly as town or scum. And there is a big difference between your example and this game.

Honestly, the thing bugging me most about you is the fact that you actually believed that Shaka was rolefishing on page 2. The example with Kaleidoscope was on page 30 of that game. I can appreciate you giving no slack to anti-town or scummy actions, but the whole random stage is basically made of actions that at any other time in the game would be incredibly suspicious anyway. What is the real difference between random voting and, heh, random role-fishing in the early stage of the game?

[RetroDucts]

How this could possibly be construed as me thinking, at any point, that Shaka was town trying to get a claim from me is beyond me. It's common sense not to vote for people you think are town.

The point I'm making is that you criticised me for equivocating what Shaka did to a claim, when this

seems

to be to be exactly what you were thinking anyway. I wasn't trying to equivocate - I thought it was clear what I was getting at. From what I've read, you

did

see the 'pressure vote', which in your mind was intended to make you claim, as a clear scum-tell, i.e. you thought it made Shaka scum.

The way I read what I quoted from you in my last post was that you thought Shaka did something scummy - rolefish - but wasn't necessarily scum:

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because

Shaka didn't actually claim;

he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

So my question became, why would you say he was blatantly rolefishing, something only scum would do, if you thought he could be town?

So, in short, my answer is no, and shame on you for trying to imply anything else.

I have no shame since I tried to imply nothing. I'm sorry if me trying to come to an understanding of the posts in this game bothers you. That said, I think I understand what you meant with your last post now.

Thanks for the meta-example, but I see no reason why you can't have acted similarly as town or scum. And there is a big difference between your example and this game.

Hmmm, what does he look like he's doing? Exactly what I predicted.

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim

This isn't true at all. And unless it was a genuine misread, it's a strawman. I admittedly believed you viewed a 'pressure vote' as being as good as a claim, so I thought you saw Kaleidoscope's and Shaka's posts in a similar light. I never said that Shaka's posts

wasn't

a scum claim while Kaleidoscope's was. The difference I pointed out was that the posts in question came at significantly different stages of the game.

To refer to your 'a scumclaim is a scumclaim' line - the difference of timing is notable because the weight of such statements and, more importantly, what can be discerned from them are much less when they appear earlier in the game. So, no, I don't agree with your simplification.

Again, no way this can be construed as anything other than to seperate my hypothetical answer from the game.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

If I went out saying, "I am scum," in a serious style, during every random vote stage of every game, I would be policy lynched for WIFOM, I'm sure. I know I certainly would policy lynch someone who said that.

Just so you understand my opinion: claiming scum during the random stage doesn't make one scum. I wouldn't vote for anyone based on that alone, no way. Policy lynches such as this are generally very bad play.

The difference is that random role-fishing is done in a manner too serious for random voting.

Well, here, I disagree, and this is where my issue with you is. So far as I'm concerned, anything goes in the random stage. I think taking anything said in the random stage too seriously is likely as much an over-reaction whether it be a random vote or a random role-claim. Everything is worth noting, yes, but

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think they've found scum because of the random stage alone

, which is

exactly

what you did, regardless of misunderstandings or misinterpretations.

In short, RetroDucts went around in a very sleazy fashion to try and trick me through rhetoric into making myself look scummy. I saw through this, and I am going to see him lynched today. It is absolutely ridiculous to see scum try and get away with such overt manipulation.

Vote: Retroducts

I think you're quite capable of explaining yourself so asked the questions I had to get a better read of you, as I have been of other players in this game. That you saw this as an attempt by me to 'trick' you makes me wonder why you would be so unsettled by my questions to see them as something more than what they were. You received no special treatment.

[RetroDucts]

As to your second point, it was Trebis who I was voting for, not Khelvaster, and its not that I thought he was in any real danger, it was the way in which Glork had voted that made me unvote. He made what seemed like an offhand comment about getting a claim out of it, but when asked about said comment, said it wasn't so offhand after all.

I know it was Trebis you had your vote on. What stood out to me was your caution at a 2-vote wagon on Trebis while Khelvaster had 3 votes on him before Glork changed his vote. And I really don't see how Glork's vote could make you unvote. Can you elaborate?

[RetroDucts]

Retroducts, I am unsettled by your definition of a random vote stage.

From my experiences, anyone seriously trying to cause a roleclaim just caused the game to leave random vote stage through that action.

Hmm, good point. And it's making me think a bit.

Firstly, I think of the start of a game as a 'random' stage, not specifically a random

vote

stage. It is essentially a tool the town uses to begin discussion, and so whatever is done to start this discussion is fine by me, whether it actually is done randomly or not.

I think I can understand what you're saying about leaving the random stage. I saw Shaka's vote as being a part of the random stage or, at most, an intentional "bandwagon" vote to apply some pressure and generate discussion, while you saw it as a deliberate attempt at getting you to claim. Personally, even if he had said, as I suggested myself saying earlier, "I'm scum, tell me your role," I wouldn't consider it a serious attempt at forcing a roleclaim even if it did push the game out of the random stage. My issue remains that you did treat it as a serious case of rolefishing, though I can now see that it may come down to different perceptions.

How ever I can not deny that Khel has brought up some very good points.

I'm intrigued. Which points did you think were very good?

[RetroDucts]

I had a vote which was sitting on somebody else for a completely random or arbitrary reason.

I thought your vote on Khelvaster was neither random nor arbitrary. Why'd you vote him, then?


While there are still some things that worry me, I'm willing to drop the Khelvaster thing for now. I feel like I'm getting a bit tunnel-visioned. And there

are

other players in this game. =)

Both OGML and Trebis have caught my attention.

Also,

Unvote

whoever I was voting for.

Interestingly, he was voting for OGML.

Unvote
Vote: Trebis

[RetroDucts]

Sorry, I neglected this in my last post:

I think he is right on the money here, Retro. Where did you get that idea from?

I explained this early in post 97.


Without meaning to get deeply back into the Khelvaster thing, Glork, did you think a vote for role-fishing at that point was reasonable? If anyone else wants to answer this too, please feel free.


I'll give some details of my suspicion of OGML and Trebis. It begins with Trebis and a few posts he made early in the game, one which Glork already mentioned. I didn't bother bringing them up at the time but after OGML took at vote off him after the slightest bit of pressure, I decided there may be more to it.

Here are the posts I noted from Trebis:

I don't think I want to random vote this time. I actually think Tarhalindur could be onto something.

Vote: Khelvaster

I wouldn't try to deduce much from this. I've played with Khelvaster before, and he has a tendency to do things like that.

This seemed unnecessary and an almost too eager, unprompted defence. When the post was made, I felt it was too early to make anything of it.

Unvote since random votes don't seem to be doing much now.

Subtle attempt at looking more pro-town? No way to prove it one way or the other, but I'm just throwing that out there.

This sounds opportunistic. Throwing suspicion out there for something I think wasn't worth publicly noting at that point.

I seriously doubt the scum would try to get a claim out of a townie THIS early in the game.

Glork covered this one.

I'm gonna agree too with Mizzy.

This whole encounter between Khelvaster and Retro Ducts just confused me and turned me off to the game more than anything. I don't know what it was about it, but I had a hard time following everyones arguments without my eyes glazing over.

All-in-all right now I feel like it's a case of two townies arguing with eachother, which is never a good precedent to set in a game. I've seen too many games where Day 1 gets stuck between two townies duking it out, and at the end of the day the only logical conclusion is to lynch one of the two of them. And of course in the end, you learn they're both town.

My issue with this is mostly that it sounds like Trebis hasn't really put much thought into the exchange between Khelvaster and me (I've bolded the relevant section of the post), which make the following paragraph all the more questionable. How could he claim to have read it as two townies arguing if he didn't even know what it was about? He even goes as far as to relate the situation to where mislynches take place, almost as if to foreshadow the outcome of the Day.

On to OGML:

Khel, you're clearly overreacting to the mini bandwagon that formed on you. Pressure vote can mean a lot more than pressing for a role claim, and you've been reacting poorly under the pressure so far.

I asked him to clarify what he meant by a poor reaction because this post seemed to remain fairly ambiguous on what Khelvaster's reaction meant, in terms of alignment. There were negative connotations, but nothing that really began to commit either way. He later elaborated:

I think Khelvaster's reaction was poor just because it was so jumpy. The only reason to come to such an early conclusion about rolefishing in my eyes is if you've got something making you think people are going to be coming at you. Which isn't specifically pro- or anti-town, just notable.

... which, again, is quite ambiguous - even accommodating.

His unvote of Trebis still doesn't sit well with me and I'm waiting on his reply to my last question.

There are a lot of players I don't have a good read on, so I think I'll need to reread. It seems like there are a few players have been going unnoticed so far.

[RetroDucts]

Right now, I'd put Khel, Mizzy, and RD in my tentative "protown" list. No real good scum candidate has stood out yet.

Besides Trebis, who else would have you called a not so good scum candidate?

I just re-read this entire thread, and... generally, it was more annoying than anything.

My sentiments exactly.

This is more a general question to anyone who feels the same way - what makes it annoying? What does that mean? Does that just mean that there's too much to read? There are no leads?


Regarding Trebis, while my first reaction to him sticking around is to think it's pro-town, the WIFOM makes me cautious. That is, I'm feeling inclined to see it as a null-tell for now, though I do see it in his favour more than not.

Yes, but making mountains out of molehills just makes it easier for the scum to make us turn on each other...

What do you think have been the molehills this game? What do you think are more sensible leads?


After rereading, I think these players need to contribute a lot more to this game: OhGodMyLife, yeahthatguy224, Sangy (waiting on promised content), Tahalindur, TheJiveMachine.

[RetroDucts]

Plus, I already got bitched at for putting in my two cents when the conversation wasn't being directed at me and while I still do that, I'm trying to not piss off too many people. I get yelled at a lot for being too active.

That was me. And I didn't mean to bitch, let alone yell. It was a suggestions/probe as part of the game. I think scum may jump in to answer questions for their partners or even direct conversations. I wondered whether this is what you were doing.

Why are you worrying about pissing people off? Is there something you would be doing that you're not?

You say that there's not enough participation to find a good lead. This to me means that you think scum are lurking. Who, of the least active posters, would you think is most suspicious?

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Hmm, you probably shouldn't be linking to ongoing games, but even so, the circumstances in that game were very different to this, being open and all. Also, I saw the post that seemed pivotal in the No Lynch of that game, and it seems like your were trying to emulate the "probability" argument for a No Lynch even though it doesn't apply very well in this game at all. I have to say that your entrance doesn't do a heap to convince me that you are a Townie. I feel quite comfortable about leaving you at L-2.

[RetroDucts]

I've had a reread of Trebis/Joubert and was about ready to decide what to do with my vote, but I think Tarhalindur has asked good questions, and will wait for the answers.

In the meantime, I noticed there are a few questions asked of Glork that haven't been answered.

Right now, I'd put Khel, Mizzy, and RD in my tentative "protown" list. No real good scum candidate has stood out yet.

Besides Trebis, who else would have you called a not so good scum candidate?

And this one from Erg0, which is actually somewhat related.

Glork: In light of this discussion, I'm curious as to why you included Mizzy in your tentative pro-town list in post 92?

Glork, can you answer them now?

[RetroDucts]

that's me

[RetroDucts]

I put my original vote on Glork because, in my opinion, it seemed like he took something I said that was moderately significant, make it bigger and invective me with exclamation marks and sputter.

So you thought that Glork's perceived over-reaction to your suggestion of a No Lynch was scummy, but on reflection you decided it was more 'Jestery' than scummy, and so unvoted? How do you differentiate scummy behaviour from 'Jestery' behaviour?


Jesus this is making my head hurt. I need to reread. =/

[RetroDucts]

Just finished the reread.

You know what, screw all this pussyfooting:

I've felt a little afraid to contribute much because I haven't wanted to get involved

with

or cause a big hullabaloo like we had earlier on Khev. So, yes, I think that might be the case.

Discussion that's tame is near useless. I read over it, and I think it's great that the Khelvaster thing happened at all. Same goes for your big posts to shaka and Erg0, although I'm regretful of the whole "let's shake hands and get on with the game" part of both of these, which shaka mentioned already.

If there's one thing this game needs, it's more hullabaloos.

QfT

So, I was feeling cautious of the Joubert wagon for a while, but his behaviour since his entrance and that of Trebis are enough for me to be more than content will seeing him at L-2 with a deadline approaching. I'm basically waiting for the last 2 voters to hop on.

What's tipped me over the edge is the fact that Joubert has ignored requests made of him, disregarding questions and failing to satisfactorily substantiate his comments in any way, the whole time being very unhelpful. He complained about the lack of content, yet has done little to nothing about this besides suggesting a No Lynch, and like Trebis, hasn't been scum-hunting. Unless you want to count his case on Glork. Oh, but wait, he's probably a Jester, so let's not vote for him, kay?

He's scummy as hell and I'm really not sure what we're waiting for here.

I don't see the point of the waiting for the deadline if we're not going to use that time in any productive way.

We need more hullabaloos.

Yes.

*explodes something*

And, for the sake of giving us something else to talk about while we wait for the Joubert lynch. I noticed a few questions that still need answers:

Right now, I'd put Khel, Mizzy, and RD in my tentative "protown" list. No real good scum candidate has stood out yet.

Besides Trebis, who else would have you called a not so good scum candidate?

That's the second time I've reposted it. Glork, can you answer it please?

And this one from Taharlindur to Khelvaster.

Khelvaster, what are your opinions on OGML, Trebis, and myself?

[RetroDucts]

I don't really understand your question, Retro, especially in the context of the quote you cited, and given that I felt Trebis

was

a good scum candidate.

Eh? You said no good scum candidates stood out to you and not long before that you had voted for Trebis. I assume this meant you thought he was slightly suspicious and that there may have been others you had an eye on. Your post implied that there were 'some' scum candidates, even if they weren't 'good' ones. I wanted to know who these people were.

Also, any reason you didn't answer this earlier?

[RetroDucts]

Because I can't see Killa being anything but distracting to us in day 2, same goes with Joubert.

Joubert, I can understand, but saying this about killa is way preemptive.

What makes you say he'd be a distraction? Same question goes to Mizzy.

My vote is not where my mouth is because if it comes down to it I am not going to be voting them because they are scummy but rather because I think they are going to be very distracting in day 2.

I still don't see what you're waiting for here. With 2 days to deadline, I expect you would be making your mind up.

I have a feeling that, assuming 3 scums, two of them were (and perhaps still are) sitting around and letting the town chase shadows or do nothing.

Who's the one that hasn't been sitting around?

[RetroDucts]

heh, just making sure. :D
Just for the sake of eradicating any uncertainty on the matter, I assume you're referring to shaka.

Ok, perhaps a question with a less obvious answer: If you had to take a stab at it, who are the other two?

[RetroDucts]

Glork was highly suspicious of you. Glork is now dead. Seems like as good a place as any to start.

Given the fact that Glork was also highly suspicious of

you

in Day one, I'd be careful of how far you want to push that piece of WIFOM.

I wonder if I'm reading into the flavour text too much, but it does seem to imply a thing or two about this setup.

In the meantime...

Vote: TheJiveMachine

You were too silent in Day 1 for my liking. Want to give us your thoughts on it?

This vote would

just as well

have gone to sangy, if she wasn't being replaced. Would be great to get more content from OhGodMyLife, too.

[RetroDucts]

Goddamit I did it again. That was me... again.

Um, mod, if you want, you could edit that into this post and delete the original... or not.

[RetroDucts]

Actually, it is worth bringing up. If I'm reading it correctly, it wouldn't give anything away that scum don't already know.

Town aligned doc implies to me that there may be a scum Doc. "Sire" implies to me that there's probably a Godfather type role in the scum, but given the presence of a scum Doc, they're probably investigation immune rather than unnightkillable. A scum Doc also implies a second night killing role/faction, which may be pro-town or scum.

[RetroDucts]

But...wouldn't a townie do the same thing? ANYONE who does something stupid would try and backpedal.

Eh.. I'm pretty surebackpedalling implies being dishonest about your intentions. I think the pro-town reaction to having a slip-up pointed out is not lying about it, AKA backpedalling, but accepting the mistake.

I'm not thrilled about Erg0's vote for TJM if all it's based on is an apparent scumtell. And there's this as well -

OGML: as a general rule, cases which rely on me being a complete idiot don't tend to work out very well.

And gambits that rely on the players of a game being idiots are likely to work well?

What sort of a reaction were you expecting when you voted for shaka? Didn't you think that town or scum were equally likely to call it for WIFOM? Where was the gain and how likely was it to be useful anyway?

@ TheJiveMachine

- In your last post you just outlined and added to discussion since Day 2. I asked for you thoughts on Day 1. What did you think about the Joubert wagon? Anything notable from the day you think is worth bringing up? When Joubert came up town, who were your top suspects?

[RetroDucts]

It seems this post of mine was almost entirely ignored.

I'm not thrilled about Erg0's vote for TJM if all it's based on is an apparent scumtell. And there's this as well -

OGML: as a general rule, cases which rely on me being a complete idiot don't tend to work out very well.

And gambits that rely on the players of a game being idiots are likely to work well?

What sort of a reaction were you expecting when you voted for shaka? Didn't you think that town or scum were equally likely to call it for WIFOM? Where was the gain and how likely was it to be useful anyway?

@ TheJiveMachine

- In your last post you just outlined and added to discussion since Day 2. I asked for you thoughts on Day 1. What did you think about the Joubert wagon? Anything notable from the day you think is worth bringing up? When Joubert came up town, who were your top suspects?

Erg0, care to respond now?

And TJM, you never provided the content or answers I requested so my vote's not budging.


I thought Tar bought up a good point about OGML's late Day 1 comment, but am content with OGML's response and am getting a pro-town vibe from him now that he's posting content.

I wasn't so keen on Tar's role-fishing argument against Mizzy, for much the same reasons I don't like Erg0's vote for TJM. They both seem to be based on 'tells' as opposed to anything reasonably scummy. I can understand the fishing one a bit more, but in context, I don't know how Mizzy's question about a cop would have outed any investigative roles that we may have.

I am not the only one who did it [rolefish], so why then am I the only one to be called on it?

I assume you were referring to me as the other. I expressed caution, but realised that what I was speculating wouldn't give anything about the town away that scum wouldn't know anyway. So I figured it wasn't going to harm the town but was more likely to empower us and went ahead and posted it. There

is

a difference between my speculation and yours. That doesn't mean I find yours scummy.

Mod:

How's that sangy replacement coming along? Also, a prod on killa seven may be worthwhile.

[RetroDucts]

Welcome Sierra, eagerly looking forward to your posts.

Also, I've got limited access over the next 2-3 days, but given the pace of this game, that may not be too much of a problem. :D

That said, some prods would be good, I think.

[RetroDucts]

Hi, I've been catching up with other... er.. things.

I'll get to this soon. Sorry for the absence.

[RetroDucts]

I'm catching up slowly. I've been rereading from a little before the end of Day 1 and based on what I've read, I'd be willing to vote shaka at deadline, essentially for a lack of scum-hunting, and I tend to agree with Tarhalindur's IIoA point if not as a "tell" then as a sign of a player who's trying to appear to be scum-hunting without actually doing it, which, as I reread him, seem a reasonable assumption.

That said, I'm still not 100% convinced about Erg0's vote for shaka at the start of the day, but I notice deeper cases have been made on him and feel I need to spend some time reading over them.

I'm also very uneasy about the lurking from players whose contributions have been minimal. TJM and killa nine in particular, because there's little to read of them. At least killa's told us he'll be rereading etc, but then I'm sure he said the same in Day 1... TJM also apparently been completely ignoring the game. His contributions have been unimpressively meagre and so I'm happy with where my vote is at this time.

At the risk of sounding a little hypocritical in light of my own inactivity, I'm growing quite tired of letting lurking players off the hook. If neither of them are actually interested in this game I'd much rather they as to be replaced by players who will make an effort to contribute than lurk and suck life out of the game.

There are seven days to deadline, so I'll be planning on getting up to date well before then and deciding who I feel is the best lynch today.

[RetroDucts]

lol
ninja'd

[RetroDucts]

Khelvaster - He came out of his argument with RD looking pro-town. I liked his post 96 in that discussion very much and it raised my suspicions against RD. However, after that issue settled, he hasn't been posting as much as before. It worries me he might be scum trying to lay low now that people can't really accuse him of lurking anymore after such a discussion. My take on him at this moment remains

neutral

.

...

RetroDucts - As I mentioned in my analysis of Khelvaster, I think RD came out the loser of that discussion, especially because of the part about him trying to setup Khel by asking a hypothetical question. Aside from that, I'm not really happy with his playstyle which seems to mostly be him asking questions to everyone, and answering to their responses with even more questions. It kinda looks like he's just waiting for someone to accidentally say a wrong word so he can lead a case on that. Of course, this could also very well be his pro-town way of catching scum, so I realize it's not a very strong argument. I guess it's more of a gut feeling I have then, when I say my take on him is

slightly scum

.

I'm really interested in hearing more from Sierra about this.

Asking questions is scummy? It's my fault if someone revealingly responds to a question? Slips are more or less exactly what we need to look for when scum-hunting. Catching people out being inconsistent is great for the town. Of course I'm going to be asking questions, and yes, I'm scrutinising every response I get. Why shouldn't I be?

I find Sierra's whole line of reasoning in this department questionable in light of this post:

What I see is two cases of a player pressuring another player - asking him to explain his posts/votes where they appeared suspicious - in the hopes of catching him in a lie or a contradiction. Both shaka and erg0 have responded to accusations against them with good arguments IMO, so I see no reason to place my vote there. This method of forcing a discussion is a good scum-hunting mechanic, so tar and ogml scored a few points on my pro-town-scale.

So, me asking questions is

scummy

, but Tar and OGML get

pro-town

points for doing the same?

Also, you say Khelvaster's post raised your suspicions of me. I assume this means you didn't find my response to him very convincing. I'd like you to tell us what, beside my questioning, makes me suspicious. Elaborate on your gut feeling. Ambiguous suspicion is the most irrefutable, for all the wrong reasons, of course.

I am still waiting for something even remotely contributive from killa before voicing my opinions. I'm pretty ticked that he's shrugging the whole game off.

I'm a little confused about this. Why were you waiting for killa seven? I can understand putting it to a player to contribute and pull some weight, but I don't see how you voicing your opinions and killa contributing were related.

Considering the fact that I have been much more active in this game than you have, I suggest you save your snide remarks for someone who cares.

I don't dig this. I don't believe posting without content is the same as being actively involved in a game. By proportion, I think OGML

has

posted more content that you, despite having made fewer posts. One of the biggest criticism's of your play this whole game has been the fact that you've been non-committal and unwilling to point fingers. If you're going to keep your suspicions to yourself, don't be surprised when people accuse you of fence-sitting or make a big deal when you finally DO point at someone.

I think your attack on OGML was uncalled for and I'm feeling like it's almost an OMGUS attack. At the very least, getting 'bitchy' doesn't make an argument more convincing and could almost be seen as compensation. I also find it questionable that you referenced Tar's Post 393 as part of the case against OGML, the bulk of which bases his scumminess on him being

your

scum-buddy. The only part which doesn't refer to you is the one post you made where you accuse him of having extra knowledge about the nightkill.

On that note, I think I said before that I'm feeling much better about OGML since he's become more active. I'm not really on board with the arguments against him, Tarhalindur's being the most substantial. In light of the fiery debate had between Mizzy and OGML, I believe Tar's case is less likely to be accurate. Oh, and TJM's jump on board it doesn't work wonders for me either.


There's been a lot of WIFOM from Erg0. It's bugging me, but when he's not putting wine in front of us, he's making sense. I would ask you, Erg0, not to assume scum are simple enough to fall for a gambit like you pulled. I don't believe the 'risk' was as small as you believed and the return was, in this case anyway, even smaller. Or was it? lol. Did you learn anything from it?

killa seven

- OGML asked you this questions and you still haven't answered:

Let me ask you a counter question, killa. Why did you vote me in the first place?

While I (sort of) appreciate you doing a pbpa of TJM, it wasn't as thorough as you presented it to be. Some of the posts you quoted and comments you made weren't even telling either way. While I am tending to agree that TJM's lurking is a good enough reason to lynch him, I'm not convinced you've really read the thread well enough to have decided he's today's lynch.


While the fact that Sierra has expressed an intention to vote TJM, but still hasn't, makes me wonder, in light of the posts I bought up above, I'm still not prepared to let TJM off the hook. He's had plenty of time to read and post content and still hasn't managed to give us anything new. I don't even know what he thought about Day 1, and I asked him about that weeks ago.

[RetroDucts]

These two deaths have inspired me to reread and reconsider a lot of information I've had...

All but three living players were on the TJM wagon. Perhaps it's completely irrational, but I find it unlikely that scum completely avoided the wagon. My feeling is that we saw bussing.

Sierra, you explained why you thought my questioning was suspicious, but you never explained why you felt Khelvaster came out the 'winner' in our debate from Day 1.

While I reread, I will

Vote: Erg0

.

The only points you ever raised against TJM were a scumtell and a somewhat whimsical comment about his inactivity in Post 489. Post 392 is where you suggest your vote is based on more than a simple scumtell, yet never elaborate. You even admitted later in Post 419 that your vote on TJM is based on "pure statistics".

True enough, it doesn't really narrow the field of suspects very much. As such, [Glork's] death doesn't really give any helpful information. Jive's reaction, on the other hand, is quite revealing.

Revealing, how?

My issue is that it seems like your vote just happened to be on the wagon that had grown too large close to deadline for you as scum to take it off. You didn't attempt to get a better read of him, placing a vote that seemed almost completely harmless when made, and never really contribute to a case against him besides bringing that scumtell up, which I disagree with.

Everyone else, I'm leaning town with because they backed their votes up with substantial references to content. I expressed criticism of killa's 'case' against him but despite the WIFOM I'm finding it unlikely that, as a newbie, he'd have put so much effort into bussing a scum-buddy like that.

With 8 alive, I feel like I could manage a player-by-player analysis, so I'll be working on that and posting my thoughts as I go.

[RetroDucts]

Khelvaster, reasons stated a long time ago?

I had a quick look at your posts and found these ones relating to Erg0.

I feel erg0 is town, Glork. He is showing all the hallmarks of a somewhat lazy town, not a scum trying to cover up lack of evidence.

First he's town... then:

Vote: Erg0

Given the situation, I feel a scum slip-up and backtrack is likely. Erg0 did something idiotic, and he is trying to WIFOM to cover it up.

I still suspect Erg0. He gave off a very strong appearence of backtracking, and I haven't seen anything to make me change my views of him considerably.

That's it. The most reason you've given for your vote is that Erg0 made a scum slip. Are you serious about that vote? I'm doubting it. I am doubting you've even really read the thread.

Unvote
Vote: Khelvaster

Erg0, I feel I'll have to reread before responding to you in more detail. My impression of Day 2 was that you avoided the TJM wagon, meaning that showing up to unvote or change your vote would have stood out. So far as scumtells go, I wasn't voting TJM based on one. I was voting for him as a pressure vote to get him contributing. He never did to a level I felt was acceptable so I didn't take my vote off. I also enjoy lynching lurkers =). Also, I believe I did contribute to the wagon by

actively

pressuring him and bringing attention to his lack of contribution, which I actually find scummy. I

don't

find someone saying 'it sucks that we lost the doc' scummy. That said, you can obviously see where I'd rather put my vote right now, even if it is only until I finish my reread.

On that note, I was just catching up with a large game I'm in and another mini I'm in has been deadlined. I'm going to get up to speed with said deadlined game first then devote my ms time to getting a reread and player summaries of this game done.

Where's everyone else? Even if you're not rereading I'm sure there's some way you could be contributing to this game.

[RetroDucts]

*hides*
My weekend has been much busier than I thought. I am rereading, but it's been slow. I can promise to have it done by Monday, and hopefully I'll post some of my analyses up by then.

[RetroDucts]

Assuming two scum left and a kill each night, a non-mafia lynch today means we'll be in lylo tomorrow with 4 town and 2 scum.

Regarding his claim, I'm unsure of whether to believe it. I just had a read of the wiki entry on survivors and it says they win with any faction so long as they make it to endgame. Yes, I agree with Erg0 that if Khelvaster's claim is true he could be a problem in endgame, especially if we mislynch today. He'd have little to no incentive

not

to hammer

anyone

so far as I can see.

What I'm trying to work out right now is whether playing it safe and lynching a claimed survivor is the best option. If we choose not to lynch Khel, we risk lynching town and going into lylo with a player who knows they can win the game by hammering away. If we do lynch him, we can go into Day 4 with a fair certainty that there are only two win conditions in play and no wayward votes, even if we are in lylo. The alternative, of course, is lynching scum. =)

Unvote

, until I get my reread done (tonight).

[RetroDucts]

Ok, so I didn't get the whole reread done, but I'm almost there.

I've also thought about it and I believe Khelvaster's the right lynch today. I think the risk of lynching town isn't worth taking and I'd rather be in lylo without a survivor. There's also the chance that Khelvaster is fake claiming scum, in which case we wouldn't be in lylo anyway.

Before I vote though, I really want to get my thoughts on the game posted, player by player. I have heaps of time tomorrow, so I'll get it done then.

[RetroDucts]

I wasted a shitload of time today so I only just finished my reread. I took way more notes than I expected I would and there's no way I'm getting them all into a post tonight.

A few things from Day 3 anyway:

I'm not so sure about this, I just read through TJM contributions to the game and he only really talks about Khel on day 1 when he was a hot topic of conversation. I did find this interesting, though:

As for suspecting people based on the fact that Glork was the one killed, I don't think it is a wise strategy to go on that alone, as it is obvious WIFOM, and, as mentioned, Glork is an excellent scumhunter and high-profile target no matter who the scum are.

Why did you bring this post up? I'm not sure what you're reading from it.

@ Sierra

- What are your thoughts on Khelvaster's claim?


I don't see why we should rush to end the day. Since a Khelvaster lynch is pretty much inevitable, I see no point in stretching the day out, but I think we should use this time, with this many players alive, to discuss things too. I do have some reservations about posting too many opinions that may help scum to direct their kill, which could be pretty advantageous to them given the situation we're likely to be in tomorrow. Still, not knowing what will happen at night, I figure getting as much content on the table now is worth while.

[RetroDucts]

In other news, while conversation may be a good thing, my scumdar is pinging RetroDucts for the way in which he is asking for us not to lynch Khel yet. I've seen scum use a similar defense before: see Stargate SG-1, where the Gou'Ald scum tried to stop a lynch on a newb scum by stalling until the storm blew over.

FoS: RetroDucts

I think this may be a little premature, though.

QFT

We don't even know if Khelvaster's scum yet! Besides that I've already established my reasoning for unvoting and more or less committed myself to a Khelvaster lynch today. This piece of evidence against me is purely circumstantial. I'd probably make more of this if you hadn't been similarly aggressive throughout this game.

Erg0 brings up a better point for concern, which I myself touched on in my last post anyway - that continuing this discussion does give scum more info for their nightkill.

Erg0, I

could

be looking for nightkill hints, but I unvoted to allow

myself

the time to reread and post analysis. Whether others want to respond to it or not doesn't bother me too much when I think about it now, though I do think it'll be more of an advantage to the town than scum if they do.

If you want another explanation of why I'm "stalling", my own view on this is based on the times I've been night killed only to lament about not posting all my thoughts. And Tar, to refer to SG1 Mafia again, after Erg0 got nightkilled that game you were, like Khel here, obviously the lynch for the Day, but I couldn't believe how willing the town was to just lynch you with so little discussion. I feel that we're in a similar situation now and don't believe the town acted wisely last time. (Note: the town lost that game.)

Also, I should have pointed it out, but I intended to revote Khelvaster after I'd posted my thoughts. If he's at L-1 when I'm done, I will allow a day then hammer.


Btw:

I'm not sure what I'm reading from it either, but I found it interesting because Khel actually did know why the scum killed Glork. In truth, it's probably only interesting in contrast to the remainder of Khel's posts.

Khel or TJM?

[RetroDucts]

Holy crap, I thought shaka had just hammered there. My analysis is coming in a few hours. Please refrain from hammering!

[RetroDucts]

Gah, something's come up and I won't be able to get this posted tonight.

I promise you all the most awesome post tomorrow.

[RetroDucts]

Yes. XD

It's awesomeness will make up for it's delay.

*post coming soon*

[RetroDucts]

Here I go...

===================

Erg0

I'm going to skip Day 1 and go to Day 2, because I think it was more revealing of Erg0. I didn't like his WIFOMy defence for the shaka vote. I did find his explanation in Post 411 somewhat convincing, even if it was still WIFOM. OGML pointed out an addition shortfall of it in Post 457, suggesting that Erg0 could have been causing a distraction and trying to divert attention away from his play in Day 1. OGML continued with attacks on Erg0 for a significant portion of the day and I felt Erg0 defended himself well in most cases.

Erg0's involvement in the TJM wagon is still making me wonder. I find his contribution to it to have been minimal and almost coincidental. Erg0 himself said his initial vote was there only to get a wagon started here:

As far as my vote yesterday, for a good part of the day Jive's early comment on losing the doc was literally the only reason I had for voting him. My intent in leaving the vote there was to keep Jive in the foreground as a possible lynch candidate, as I felt there was a decent chance that he actually was scum. I absolutely believe in this tell in certain contexts, but I know from experience that getting others onto a wagon based on that alone is impossible, so this seemed like a good way to encourage a wagon to start without having to beat my head against a brick wall.

This seems reasonable, but the only other mention Erg0 made of TJM besides the "sucks that we lost the doc"-tell was in Post 489, where he reacts to TJM's meagre contribution and then later in Post 519 when he says he "approves" of the wagon after TJM was placed at L-1. I think it's notable that 489 came after killa seven placed a (questionable) vote on TJM. Between that and 519 OGML and Tarhalindur both joined the wagon by which point it was at L-1. I imagine anyone jumping off the wagon at that point would have had to have a good reason for it... or maybe not, but I'll get to that when I go over OGML and killa seven.

Khelvaster

I didn't bother noting reasons to lynch him since it seems obvious that he's either a Survivor, as claimed, or scum. But his interactions with the living were worth noting. If he's scum, I doubt Erg0 is because of his attacks on him, although he did call him 'lazy town' in Day 1. I feel a little better about my attack on Khel in Day 1 in light of today =).

I thought this was interesting:

My best defence now is to claim survivor. I've been trying to act as unobtrusively as possible because, well, that's my goal.

This is fairly consistent with his play in Day 2, but not at all in Day 1. He was vocal and went out of his way to, firstly, attack shaka, claiming to be certain he was scum, and secondly, attack me for 'setting him up'. He and I were in the spot light for a good part of the early game and he was actively involved later in the Day too. He may have tailed off later in the Day, but early on he certainly

wasn't

trying to act unobtrusive.

I didn't pick much else up, in terms of interaction, besides a somewhat out of place defence of killa seven in Post 255.

This is all fairly useless info unless Khel turns up scum.

killa seven/yeahthatguy224

The one post of yeahthatguy's that I noted was Post 133 where he announced after a reread that he had basically no read on anyone but making a note that he wasn't certain if he believed Khelvaster's explanation his 'rolefishing'-inspired vote on shaka. Soon after this, TJM threw a vote on him in Post 139 "for saying that analysis is "blowing the smallest problems out of proportion" and later adding 'lurking' to the list of reason for his vote. If not for that additional comment, I may have argued that this was more notable since both Mizzy and Trebis had pretty much said the same thing.

killa seven's been strange. My immediate reaction is to call him newb town, and for the most part this seemed to make sense, but a few things I noted follow.

Post 289 stood out to me because killa was kind of repeating what Erg0 has said to Joubert about his Jester comment just a few posts ago. This happened again in Post 316 where he essentially repeats

my

comments about Joubert. It seems to me that killa was riding on the Joubert wagon without really reading into it himself.

His eventual vote for Joubert in Post 342 caught my eye in my reread, not only because it was the hammer, but because in his last two posts he'd posted some decent criticism of shaka, suggesting more thought than he'd put into the case on Joubert. His hammer came two minutes after shaka's vote, so I'm not sure if he'd seen it before he posted. killa did say later in Post 397 that he hadn't realised he was hammering, but I'm not so sure. Here's what he said:

honestly i didnt know it was a hammer vote, i wanted to get one in before the deadline he seemed the the best option at the time he didnt really defend himself well, i guess i should have paid attention to the vote count ive been overloaded at work.

LOL. Overloaded at work. Also, his vote came two days before deadline.

killa's Day 2 was more eventful. His vote for OGML in Post 472 reminded me of his vote for TJM. It became odder when compared to his Post 459 where he says OGML made a good case on Erg0. Post 477 really caught my eye because killa suddenly snapped into form, unvoted OGML, saying TJM had 'become a ghost'. It was after this that he posted his PBPA of TJM, which wasn't half as thorough as it seemed at the time.

Post 492 was high on "WTF"-scale.

Incidentally, I'm wary of this tendency to write killa off as noobtown based on such a shaky meta. I do agree that he's probably not today's lynch, but I don't want to see this conclusion drawn through the rest of the game.

I'm particularly not loving the fact that he was just pointed out as a townie, which is not something that a pro-town player should

ever

do in-thread.

i agree, i wouldnt be shocked if i got nk. but hey these are the chances we take.

Why and with what exactly did killa agree? Why did killa think he was a potential nightkill target?

In Day 3, killa once again somewhat echoed the content of another player, this time OGML, in Post 540.

OK, I had Mizzy pegged as TJM's partner after yesterday

, so I'm gonna need to re-read some sections of the game before proceeding since I was obviously wrong and now I need a new suspect.

i was convinced that mizzy was scum after we lynched tjm and he came out scum..

now im leaning toawrd khelv since he was the only other live person to vote for someone else i guess ill go read through his post to see if anything stands out.

This seems minor, but it stood out to me more given that in the rest of his post, OGML said he felt pretty solid about killa being town.

All of this said, I find it very unlikely that killa actually bussed TJM.

OhGodMyLife

Looking back at Day 1, I found OGML's stance on the Khelvaster issue more interesting. I asked him back then about his comment in Post 61 about Khelvaster "reacting badly" to the votes against him. I felt it was a fairly ambiguous criticism that implied a vague negative sentiment. In Post 95 he expanded on this, noting a pretty valid reason why this might be considered scummy, yet calls it neither "pro- or anti-town, just notable." I thought Post 408 was notable because OGML seemed to boil the Glork nightkill issue down to it being about scum figuring out he was the doctor. He seemed to downplay the consideration given to Glork's suspicions in Day going so far as to say:

Glork's town alignment means his suspicions were exactly that... just suspicions. Yes, he's a good scum hunter, and it was almost definitely his reputation that got him NKed and not any suspicion on the scum's part that he was a power role, but in the end he had exactly as much information as any other townie."

From my reread, Glork's notable suspects in Day 1 were shaka, Tarhalindur, Erg0 and Khelvaster (see Post 236 and Post 318).

I found his actions around the TJM lynch less credible in my reread. In Post 478, which came immediately after killa seven voted for TJM, he made no comment on killa's reason for voting TJM, instead asking him to reread the thread and present an opinion on who he thought was scum. After killa posted his PBPA of TJM, OGML called it a "compelling case." This, I disagree with and was what I was referring to back at the start of this post. I can't believe that OGML really found the case compelling, at least not any more compelling than any evidence against him that had already been raised, because for the most part it was filler. The were more posts that killa quoted and more or less paraphrased than actually analysed in any truly meaningful way. In Post 508 he chimes in on the case, referring to the "sucks that we lost the doc" scumtell and TJM 'active' lurking. The nature of OGML's late vote on the TJM wagon makes me feel bussing is a possibility. Something that gives me pause, taking the recent night kill into account, is the way he openly linked Mizzy to TJM. I'm unsure of why OGML would have killed her after pointing out a very believable connection between the two.

Post 482 really stands out in light of the impending Khelvaster lynch. OGML asked Mizzy why she was suspicious of TJM and Khelvaster. I realise that if the two of them and OGML make the scum team, this seems a very illogical action for OGML to take.

Sierra/Sangy

Seeing Sierra pointed out as "ignoring" the case on Khelvaster today made Post 56 stick out a bit. It was a post by sangy where she FOSed Khelvaster right after Unvoting. Post 426 was Sierra's first big post after replacing, in which he said that Khelvaster came out the 'winner' in our exchange in Day 1 and noted him as "neutral" and me as "slightly scum". I still don't feel he's adequately explained his take on the Khel-me thing. Also, looking back at sangy's Post 234 I noticed that it included a notably inconclusive criticism of Khelvaster and a more damning criticism of me ("fishing for something to jump on there").

Sierra's (lack of) involvement in the TJM wagon is pretty evident to me. He first stated his suspicion of TJM in Post 426, saying it was based on his active lurking, but the wording he used was really odd:

Unlike OGML and killa, TJM has popped up on occasion, but never managed to say anything significant enough for me to get a pro-town or scum feel for him. I'd place him on top of my scum list, but I'll hold my vote until I've had a good night's rest to think it over and hear how everyone else feels about this.

His claim that he hasn't gotten a pro-town or scum feel for him doesn't add up with his placing of TJM at the top of his scum list. That he goes on to say that he'll wait for others' opinions makes me doubtful of how much conviction he had in his suspicion. His follow up post (Post 433) didn't really make up.

Meanwhile I've gone over TJM's posts again and came to the same conclusion I did yesterday.

Which conclusion? That TJM was still at the top of his scumlist even though he didn't give Sierra a town or scum feel? Even after coming to the same conclusion, Sierra didn't vote. When his lack of vote was bought up he replied:

The reason I haven't voted him yet is because we should at least get a claim from him before deciding what to do.

This would be acceptable except that Sierra had expressed his suspicion back when TJM only had two votes on him (mine and Erg0's). I don't know why Sierra couldn't vote him earlier.

Overall, the jury's still out, but I see Sierra as a likely scumbuddy of TJM based on his actions around the TJM wagon.

shaka!!

Khelvaster's early attack on shaka could be seen in another light depending on Khelvaster's alignment. Even now, I'm sceptical of how genuine the attack was. I think it's worth entertaining the idea that Khel made a crazy distancing gambit, pushing a case he knew would fall apart, but not be taken too seriously given how early in the game it was made. I think the way shaka reacted to it backs this up.

My apologies--I am still convinced that a pressure vote is an attempt to get a roleclaim. There is no possible way I could respond with this little information currently in the game except by claiming if I were subjected to a "pressure vote." The fact that his vote wans't actually a pressure vote doesn't change his intentions.

The pressure vote wasn't only about you, I wanted to see how other people would react to it as well.

Scum have a tendency to make big deals of small things.

After all, this was only a third vote, out of 7.

My question here is, isn't a big deal exactly what Khelvaster made? But then shaka said this in Post 80:

For his understanding of what a pressure vote was his reactions seems reasonable.

I was more interested in how everyone else would react towards the vote rather than Khel, how ever I didn't get to see much.

Given that I didn't buy Khel's reason for reacting the way he did, I find it odd that shaka did. Why wasn't shaka more suspicious of a big deal made over a small thing like a pressure vote?

This sort of lenience continued after the Khel vs. me thing, when he said that Khel made some very good points. When I asked him to back this statement up, he responded in Post 103 referring to a point I had already addressed and another point (about random voting/fishing) that I didn't really even think was significant.

shaka's interaction with Mizzy was really erratic. He was criticising her, voting her, and then calling her town. She seems to be the only player shaka has made any serious attempt to analyse and get a proper read of. It occurs to me that shaka could have been trying to buddying up, which would explain why he spontaneously found her to be town at the end of every attack. But when I consider this, I see the same issue as I did with OGML linking Mizzy to TJM - why kill off a player you've linked to scum?

Sierra pointed out the significant connections I noted between shaka and TJM. I agree that his lack of comment on all things TJM in Day 2 is notable, but then I also notice a lack of comment on basically everything besides his own defence and an attack on Mizzy.

I think shaka needs to seriously pick up his contribution to this game. Like Erg0 said, much of the criticism directed at him is based on what he hasn't done, which I feel is because he actually

hasn't done much anyway

.

Tarhalindur

Only a few posts of his have really raised an eyebrow. In Post 218, which came after he posted an unexplained vote on TJM, Tar said that the vote was a gambit for reactions, and that based on the result he thought TJM was town.

I got the results I wanted

- nobody seemed to care about my unexplained vote except for Mizzy, who simply asked for explanation, which, given my past experience, suggests that Jive is town.

The bolded part could be very telling, unless Tar meant something other than actually wanting the gambit to go in TJM's favour. His vote on the TJM wagon came late. It was in fact the last vote to go on it and he made it after OGML used Tar's own IIoA scumtell on one of TJM's posts (Post 509).

I didn't find anything else to note. I realise now that Tar's been a light poster (in numbers) but his posts are generally in depth and often aggressive and confrontational. Since he's made a few attacks, I'm not sure how genuinely convinced Tar actually is in each of them.


===================

.... I think I'm done. This was done over a few days and I admit I got a little lazy near the end. But I think I got most of what I wanted to say posted.

Noticing Erg0's recent post, I agree that someone should unvote. I imagine this post will inspire a bit of discussion and it'd suck (and I'd cry a bit) if that was cut short by Khelvaster self-hammering.

[RetroDucts]

I didn't vote for TJM, because he hadn't done anything yet deserving a vote. He was on top of my scum-list, because everyone else was deserving a vote even less.

You said I was "slightly-scum". I was the only player you even attached the word 'scum' to at all besides the inactives you named. I'm not sure what you're suggesting warrents a vote, but based on your analysis from Day 2, I'm sure you thought

someone

must deserve a vote.

I noticed you're accusing shaka of almost the same thing TJM was guilty of doing: posting but not contributing.

Yes, it's almost the same. TJM, however, didn't even really generate any content. shaka got Mizzy talking, has put effort into responded to questions and has shown signs that he'd read the thread. What I'm missing are more of his thoughts from this read.

Everyone (except you) has jumped on Khelvaster today, so besides Mizzy, who both OGML and killa noted as their next suspect, and shaka, who you've named, we haven't really heard from too many who else they suspect. Since we're potentially going into lylo tomorrow, I can sort of understand this. I'll wait another day or two before adding my vote to Khel. Now that I've got my post out I see no point in dragging the day on longer than it needs to. If anyone else wants to comment before then, please do.

[RetroDucts]

Bah!

[RetroDucts]

Oh well. There were some interesting moments in that game.

I

was

pretty cautious of Glork being protected night 1, so yes, we were very lucky that he was the Doc. I wanted to target Khelvaster, mostly because me coming up scum would have made him harder to lynch later in the game. Turns out this wasn't so much of a problem.

Reflecting on the TJM bus, I'm really meh about it. Half of that was based on frustration that he wasn't really doing anything. I actually was trying to get him to contribute more, only because it was getting harder for me to pretend to ignore him, which could have been a bigger issue if either of us were eventually killed.

Tar, why did you kill me? =(
We would have had the game in the bag.


Oh, and when I was speaking with Erg0 after we died we spoke about how the town was taking the 75% thing too far. No one seemed to consider why he'd used "75%" at all. If shaka was entirely confirmed, I doubt he'd have left any doubt about it.

[RetroDucts]

OGML, yes, we happened to target the same players on nights 1 and 2. LOL

[RetroDucts]

Oh, and we killed Mizzy night 2 because I thought she could be the Cop. A combination of her caution and the way she seemed to flip on Erg0 from naming him as one of her suspects in Day 1 to being notably less suspicious of him in Day 2 to the point of almost vouching for his innocence, especially with the nightkill-WIFOM stuff.

Also, DO, did you put all the scum and power roles at the bottom of the player list on purpose?