Mini 545 - The Final Stand Mafia - Dramatic Finish!

[Khelvaster]

oops--I accidentally deleted the role PM I got, so I didn't know I was in this game.

/in

[Khelvaster]

Vote: Khelvaster

for posting on site today but failing to confirm.

Vote: Tarhalindur

for not realizing I accidentally deleted my role PM.

[Khelvaster]

Before anyone makes fun of me, let me say this. A vote putting me at -4 is really nothing to be concerned of. I even think Shaka is town because of this. The WIFOM is quite apparent, but I really don't think scum would go do anything so revealing so soon.

[Khelvaster]

I thought it was rather apparent that my vote was a pressure vote.

On second thought,

Vote: Shaka

for blatant rolefishing.

[Khelvaster]

Rolefishing?

I don't see the role fishing.

But shaka, first you say shits and giggles, now it was a pressure vote? What reason do you have to pressure Khel, anyways? By the time of your vote he had shown up and explained his absence.

Since this is so early in the game, I'm sure no one's foolish enough to finish off someone without enough backup from the rest of the community.

On a side note, Khel, care to explain your reasoning behind the role fishing vote, since no one else noticed it.

Ditto, please...it totally flew by me...I didn't notice such a thing.

Here's why I said he was rolefishing, albeit very poorly.

I thought it was rather apparent that

my vote was a pressure vote.

A pressure vote is a vote designed to make the person being voted on claim or contribute to the game. Since this was random voting, a pressure vote definitely couldn't be done to make someone contribute. It was him wanting me to claim so that I would get the BW off.

[Khelvaster]

My apologies--I am still convinced that a pressure vote is an attempt to get a roleclaim. There is no possible way I could respond with this little information currently in the game except by claiming if I were subjected to a "pressure vote." The fact that his vote wans't actually a pressure vote doesn't change his intentions.

[Khelvaster]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.

Unvote

[Khelvaster]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.

Unvote

The misinterpretation doesn't change the fact that it was a reach. Unless it wasn't a reach. Do you think it wasn't?


Why exactly did you unvote, OGMY?

If someone were to push for a claim straight out of random voting, you wouldn't think it was a reach to vote for him? I thought he was pushing for me to claim, so I voted him posthaste thinking he was misplaying scum this game. Given what I thought at the time, I don't think it was a reach to vote him.

I don't know what OGMY means, but here's why I unvoted him: I was convinced that he hadn't been pushing for a claim. I already said what I thought "pressure vote" meant. If you were using my definition, you'd have gone to lynch him. It was a misunderstanding. The misunderstanding was rectified, so I unvoted.

[Khelvaster]

Oh...that's what OGMY was meant to mean. It was a corrupted OGML...I just noticed that post.

[Khelvaster]

Khelvaster, before shaka voted for you, if I had said, "Hey, I'm scum. Tell me your role," would you have believed me?

Yes, I would have. I can give you a precedent that I acted exactly like this in another game I played in. Go to

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &&start=58

and look at the top two posts on that page. Those are from Kaleidoscope, the person who claimed GF and who I immediately voted for. I obviously did believe him, and he turned out to be GF.
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On a much more relevant note,

FoS: RetroDucts

for trying to set me up like that. He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim; he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

[Khelvaster]

I'm going to respond to Retroducts primarily with quotes, just so you can all see how badly he is twisting my words, using perverse, leading arguments, and generally making himself out to be a complete scum. I will not remove my vote from Retro without immense persuasion from multiple other people in this town. Read the below statements.

On a much more relevant note,
FoS: RetroDucts for trying to set me up like that. He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim; he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

So you think he could have been

town

trying to get a role claim out of you?

Khelvaster, before shaka voted for you, if I had said, "Hey, I'm scum. Tell me your role," would you have believed me?

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim.

[quote="me"On second thought, Vote: Shaka for blatant rolefishing.[/quote]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.
Unvote

How this could possibly be construed as me thinking, at any point, that Shaka was town trying to get a claim from me is beyond me. It's common sense not to vote for people you think are town. People who want claims for no reason are almost always scum. I vote for people I think are scum. This logic follows common mafia logic. Therefore, I would not vote for someone I thought was town and wanted me to claim for no good reason (the definition of rolefishing).

So, in short, my answer is no, and shame on you for trying to imply anything else.

Thanks for the meta-example, but I see no reason why you can't have acted similarly as town or scum. And there is a big difference between your example and this game.

Hmmm, what does he look like he's doing? Exactly what I predicted.

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim

This was most definitely in answer to the question asking me whether I would vote him if he claimed. You can tell because I posted this above

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On a much more relevant note,
FoS: RetroDucts for trying to set me up like that.

Again, no way this can be construed as anything other than to seperate my hypothetical answer from the game.

Honestly, the thing bugging me most about you is the fact that you actually believed that Shaka was rolefishing on page 2. The example with Kaleidoscope was on page 30 of that game.

This really shouldn't matter. A scumclaim is a scumclaim.

I can appreciate you giving no slack to anti-town or scummy actions, but the whole random stage is basically made of actions that at any other time in the game would be incredibly suspicious anyway.

Only some. If I went out saying, "I am scum," in a serious style, during every random vote stage of every game, I would be policy lynched for WIFOM, I'm sure. I know I certainly would policy lynch someone who said that.

What is the real difference between random voting and, heh, random role-fishing in the early stage of the game?

The difference is that random role-fishing is done in a manner too serious for random voting. My perspective at the time of voting him was that he actually intended to pressure vote me, as he posted. He could have gotten away with the "shits and giggles" post, but intent to pressure vote so early was, in my mind, an almost certain scumtell. I've already quoted myself and explained this multiple times-- I thought it was a massive, almost surely accurate scum indicator. People don't seriously try to rolefish early in the game. Random voting is a normal part of the game, so that wasn't an indicator.


In short, RetroDucts went around in a very sleazy fashion to try and trick me through rhetoric into making myself look scummy. I saw through this, and I am going to see him lynched today. It is absolutely ridiculous to see scum try and get away with such overt manipulation.

Vote: Retroducts

[Khelvaster]

Retroducts, I am unsettled by your definition of a random vote stage.

From my experiences, anyone seriously trying to cause a roleclaim just caused the game to leave random vote stage through that action.

[Khelvaster]

While there aare still some things that worry me, I'm willing to drop the Khelvaster thing for now. I feel like I'm getting a bit ttunnel-visioned. And there

are

other players in this game. =)

Amen. Let's bury the hatchet for now.

Bboth OGML and Trebis have caught my attention.

Also,

Unvote

whoever I was voting for.

Interestingly, he was voting for OGML.

Unvote
Vote: Trebis

Why is the fact Trebis was voting for OGML so important?

[Khelvaster]

I find x and y suspicious. I notice that x votes y to start the game, but as things get serious, he removes his vote.





Take a wild guess there, champ.

Well, he hasn't really put together a coherent case on Trebis.

[Khelvaster]

With that votecount, I realized I had forgotten to unvote Retro, so

Unvote: Retroducts

[Khelvaster]

Oh yeah:

Vote: Trebis

He's got newbscum written all over him.

FoS: Erg0

Care to elaborate on that?

[Khelvaster]

Erg0, could you please give me some quotes of his to support "all talk and no action?"

[Khelvaster]

I feel erg0 is town, Glork. He is showing all the hallmarks of a somewhat lazy town, not a scum trying to cover up lack of evidence.

[Khelvaster]

Aaah, I'm glad I said those funky things, very funny posts ensued...

Frankly, I didn't intend sexism against anyone, and I admit "unparalleled" was

almost

taken at random in the dictionary.

Unvote

, mostly because Glork could be Jester. By the way, Shaka, what does "pull a Glork on you" mean exactly...

First you vote Glork for "unparalleled behavior," and then you unvote him because "he could be the jester."

This is the scummiest thing I have seen since Kaleidoscope claimed Godfather.

Vote: Joubert

[Khelvaster]

What the hell is it with crappy replacement entrances in here?

@killa seven:

You do know that blatant OMGUS votes with no logic or reasons, however lame, behind them are generally considered to be bullshit scummy moves, yes?

Killa is a noob. He was voted for no reason. For no-reason votes, taken seriously, an OMGUS is a totally appropriate answer.

[Khelvaster]

I haven't posted for the past two weeks. I forgot I was in this game. Let me catch up.

[Khelvaster]

Vote: Erg0

Given the situation, I feel a scum slip-up and backtrack is likely. Erg0 did something idiotic, and he is trying to WIFOM to cover it up.

[Khelvaster]

Eh.. I'm pretty surebackpedalling implies being dishonest about your intentions. I think the pro-town reaction to having a slip-up pointed out is not lying about it, AKA backpedalling, but accepting the mistake.

Perhaps, IF you remove the "human" and "ego" elements from the equation. I think, though, that this scenario contains both.

Once again: your theory is that I was unaware that nightkill WIFOM is a bad idea? I'll find a game where I specifically argue against drawing conclusions from nightkills if that helps.

What I meant was that I don't think he made a slip-up, and I don't think that dishonestly is always a valid scumtell. It's nice to go on when you have other forms of proof, too, but I think you guys are reaching a bit. If you don't agree with me, then show me some proof.

I have lied as town...who hasn't? I'll do it again, too, if that's what it takes to win.

I'm not saying that Erg0 is totally scumless...I don't like some of his actions.

Can I quickly throw in here that this smacks of being too confident of info a townie couldn't be 100% sure of?

Glork's town alignment means his suspicions were exactly that... just suspicions. Yes, he's a good scum hunter, and it was

almost definitely his reputation that got him NKed and not any suspicion on the scum's part that he was a power role

, but in the end he had exactly as much information as any other townie.

Really stretching here to find something to say about OGML...I'll

FoS:Mizzy

for this

[Khelvaster]

Shaka!! and Khelvaster are focusing exclusively on Mizzy and ignoring OGML, when I consider the OGML case the stronger case of the two (please note who I am voting, and it's not Mizzy).

Something's been eating at me about Khel's FoS...We all had an entire conversation about what I said and yet he didn't quote or comment on any of it. Just my original post.

I was reading through, came across this, and posted immediately because I didn't feel like reading any farther that night.

[Khelvaster]

Khelvaster - He came out of his argument with RD looking pro-town. I liked his post 96 in that discussion very much and it raised my suspicions against RD. However, after that issue settled, he hasn't been posting as much as before. It worries me he might be scum trying to lay low now that people can't really accuse him of lurking anymore after such a discussion. My take on him at this moment remains

neutral

.

I agree with you in that I have been lying low. I really don't understand the whole Mizzy thing enough to feel like I'm able to contribute adequately. I am waiting for something to come up that I can either attack or defend. The mizzy stuff isn't doing it for me.

[Khelvaster]

Prod: Game

[Khelvaster]

I don't know what to say...I'm still here though.

[Khelvaster]

I still suspect Erg0. He gave off a very strong appearence of backtracking, and I haven't seen anything to make me change my views of him considerably.

[Khelvaster]

In fact, I didn't even know that day 3 had started up.

I'd like to

Vote: Ergo

I've been very suspicious of him for reasons mentioned a long time ago, and he's never moved out of my suspicion.

[Khelvaster]

To paraphrase: "I haven't read the thread so I'll just go back to what I was doing at the start of day 2, because consistency is a towntell."

That vote reminds me a lot of the way that Jive was playing right before he was lynched. Sadly, I can attest to having made practically the same post as scum when I haven't got a good wagon to push.

I have read the thread, but I can't get a good read on anyone, so I'll go back to the last read I had. You're right though, that's still kind of shady.

unvote

[Khelvaster]

My best defence now is to claim survivor. I've been trying to act as unobtrusively as possible because, well, that's my goal. I don't want the scum NKing me for being too good of a town, and I don't want the town lynching me for being a BM or ABR. As a result, I would like vig, SK, scum, and anyone else with NKs to please refrain from killing me.

[Khelvaster]

I'm fine with being hammered. I'm the scummiest person here, and if I stay alive, it will pull too much attention to me in LYOL. Better now than later.

Vote: Khelvaster