Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[Io]

What did I just read?
No seriously what in Hell is going on right now?

OK, where to start.
How about addressing the scum claim. If someone claims scum day 1 or really outside of an investigative check assume it's a joke. It means nothing as no one would game throw that hard and not just out their scum buddies.
Second cloud's handeling of the scum read on them was pretty bad, but if you think about if for more than a second you can see what Cloud was saying. It boils down to this, scum would know that it can't be a 9 player game if there were 3 of them (this argument is invalid if we have 2 Mafia and a SK/Arso) outside of that it's a fair assumption there is probably 3 Mafia, town who decided to not read the setup could possibly say 9 instead of 13. Hence why Cloud said lying scum or townslip. Though if it turns out to be an SK game it can easily have been a scum slip too as Mafia should only have 2 members with and SK I think.
-reguardless the argument that Cloud was part of a 4 Mafia team because of the die is pretty much one of the stupidest points I ever saw.
While cloud is right Mini seems to be talking a lot about what scum do I don't really think that is AI in particular at this point.

[Io]

So what is AI at this point?

The only thing so far that raised any concerns was Kai's early cloud push on the not including all players in their random thingy.
Still to little to really go off of on page 4.

I also see what you meant with Grey being opportunistic, but like he only has 2 posts both votes. Opportunism just isn't really something I see as scummy either as pretty much that's basically joining a wagon.

[Io]

Just kind of sat at my computer doign things for 30 minutes then suddenly realized I was forgetting something. So. Here I am.

A little new at this but
VOTE: CloudKicker
Cuz you're standing out more than others

I want to kill you just for that logic.

OK caught up.
Firstly wanted to address the 144 since I disagree with that entirely. I get the vibe from Cloud that they are trying to convince people they are town from the town slip, but Cloud's logic as to why it's a town slip is pretty shaky yes town slip quite a lot, but really thinking there is 9 players isn't much of a slip if anything it's just you didn't read. Kai also mentioned Town are usually in a panic under pressure but I think that's more a personal thing, I for one always try to remain calm even if it's frustrating being ignored.

VOTE: AJ

I'm going to have to agree with Kai after reading their accusation.
I don't really agree with the SAJ wagon in general after hosting a game with him, he mostly just feels like a fairly easy mislynch to push.

[Io]

I'm sheep voting with you? I had no idea. My read on massive was utterly independent of yours.

Oh wait, you don't even have a read. Just an RVS vote.

Damn, I didn't realize you were that savage.

[Io]

Sheeping's just following someone else's vote.

Specifically it's seeing a wagon and voting on it without any sort of reason other than it's the top wagon.
There is a difference between agreeing and sweeping.

[Io]

Sheeping's just following someone else's vote.

Specifically it's seeing a wagon and voting on it without any sort of reason other than it's the top wagon.
There is a difference between agreeing and sweeping.

No there's not, but there

is

a difference between

concurring

and sheeping.

Concurring is literally defined as agreeing.
They are interchangeable synonyms.

[Io]

Sheeping's just following someone else's vote.

Specifically it's seeing a wagon and voting on it without any sort of reason other than it's the top wagon.
There is a difference between agreeing and sweeping.

No there's not, but there

is

a difference between

concurring

and sheeping.

Concurring is literally defined as agreeing.
They are interchangeable synonyms.

[Io]

Sheeping's just following someone else's vote.

Specifically it's seeing a wagon and voting on it without any sort of reason other than it's the top wagon.
There is a difference between agreeing and sweeping.

No there's not, but there

is

a difference between

concurring

and sheeping.

Concurring is literally defined as agreeing.
They are interchangeable synonyms.

[Io]

Sheeping's just following someone else's vote.

Specifically it's seeing a wagon and voting on it without any sort of reason other than it's the top wagon.
There is a difference between agreeing and sweeping.

No there's not, but there

is

a difference between

concurring

and sheeping.

Concurring is literally defined as agreeing.
They are interchangeable synonyms.

[Io]

I hate slow internet.

[Io]

Do I need to hit you upside the head with a dictionary?

con·cur
kənˈkər/
verb
1. be of the same opinion; agree.

[Io]

@culted Why what? I wrote that in English did I not?

Also sure how could you possibly have thought I was scum reading Kai? I also just don't vote early outside of RVS, I'm pretty sure I said Grey had 2 posts only which is why I wouldn't have even voted him early.

[Io]

What's town about jin?

I didn't say I was town reading him.
The votes on him were just seemingly out of nowhere and he's just commonly mislynched. I guess you could have seen that as town reading since you can't mislynch scum, but I was saying he's just an easy wagon to push for scum and he hadn't really been posting scummy material.

[Io]

Didn't even see the other 2 pages.
While the argument from Grey is a bit of a stretch and heavily relies on Shadow being scum I think he is town from that. The structure of his points doesn't really ping me as trying to make a quick push and if anything if he were scum I don't see why he would have waited until after Cloud replaces to make that kind of a push. It's town orientated.
Mini is also probably town from the way she handled the vote on her and opposition to the Cloud accusation was reasonable.

[Io]

What am I talking about? My head hurts a lot I blanked out and thought Grey was accusing Gamma of being scum for some reason.

[Io]

Aj the Rubic, why are you scumreading Io btw? I looked through your posts but you never actually mentioned that until now.

Some of it is OMGUS at face value but the unexplained vote on me wasn't good, especially considering she had explained her position on other wagons far more clearly. Dierfire more or less explained it earlier, but it was a vote that made no sense given the post she made it in had other stronger scumreads.

At the time it was between you and Grey, but Grey now looks town so you're down to my only current scum read.

[Io]

Aj the Rubic, why are you scumreading Io btw? I looked through your posts but you never actually mentioned that until now.

Some of it is OMGUS at face value but the unexplained vote on me wasn't good, especially considering she had explained her position on other wagons far more clearly. Dierfire more or less explained it earlier, but it was a vote that made no sense given the post she made it in had other stronger scumreads.

At the time it was between you and Grey, but Grey now looks town so you're down to my only current scum read.

What are your views on Massive? If you posted them i missed it.

I don't got a read on him.

[Io]

I already said, I'm like 90% sure in the vote post itself, that I voted AJ because I had real Kai's points about AJ then agreed with the assessment.
Then he made the 378 which is just a long scum orientated post throwing a little bit of shade at a lot of people but not outright accusing most of them.

[Io]

I don't care about not voting or needing to have a vote.
The post is just fake. 3 major scum reads and 1-2 slight ones is pretty much the formula of what you need to do as scum to cast suspicion on as many people as possible without making yourself stand out and the main accuser of them when they are eventually mislynched.

[Io]

And Grey

[Io]

What?

[Io]

The what was more for the second part. I mean yes he "town" read you, but it was certainly not a resounding town read and was pretty much a "I guess he's town" read since there was the line "I think I'm willing to view Grey as town" which is basically just saying he doesn't want to town read you but has to because of the following reason he had given on the rest of that line.

[Io]

really the problem is that the wording of the whole thing is so ambiguous it lets him take almost any stance he wants, specifically on Grey.
If Grey is being widly town read which is wort of the case now he can go back and say "no I was obviously townreading him" like he just did when the language suggested a vvery reluctant town read, but of course the same were to go if people suspected Grey and started voting him then he could just simply say "I was only slightly town reading him because of one thing but I am still skeptical of him" which would clear him of any sort of relation if Grey was lynched as he wasn't one of the main accusers just slightly agreeing.
Kind of language such as that post is just extremely useful for scum as it's just fence sitting while feigning taking a stance just one that can swing both ways depending on the situation.

[Io]

k

[Io]

Not really paying much attention to scum reads on you isn't really a scummy thing to do. I'd imagine if anything your argument would probably point to him being town since the lack of effort to not be lynched.

[Io]

Specifically no one's asked that just asking why and I've sadi that 2 or 3 times now and no one pays attention to any of it.
Specifically though it was 298 and the 2nd paragraph which was something I hadn't notice and really I've always had the philosophy that, that kind of behavior/posting can come from scum which is what Aj was doing.

[Io]

Io, ignoring that for now, what are your thoughts on the massive/Newman/Flub situation?

Well situation implies they are connected which they certainly aren't.

Newman's town but the scummiest of the group solely, not that he had other content, from the push that the only way Cloud could have been replaced is if he was Mafia hard bussing. His reason for the initial tunnel was also pretty trash with it just being that he claimed scum which no one should even take seriously. The other part of his scum read of Cloud that they were overly pushing the town slip was OK and a valid argument I think. The reason I think he's not scum pushing for 2 mislynches, as he's pushing to lynch both of you, is just because of how genuine he is in the push itself. He is stubborn, but not scum.

Flubber I just don't really know about to be honest. He shares no read with me, and was very quick to town read AJ who I think is scum. Leaning scum though which would make me think Massive is town because he's done a few quick jabs on him, 2 and the RVS.

Side note, I'm not even that confident you are town either. I'm getting the Aj & Culted scum team vibe with wither Mini or Flubber
Culted just really doesn't ever talk about AJ unless it was asking me to explain the AJ scum read, which Culted also said that other people asked so I don't see why Culted would have felt the need to talk about it. Then the only times he talked about you was at the very beginning asking for a read, something which I personally just notice a lot of scum do to partners they feel wont be too active or slightly scummy, then later on the talked about you and Flubber being TvT which is what is making me think one of you are scum. Culted is mostly a slight scum read for the lack of interactions with my stronger scum read and their overly nice behavior also just kind of feels disgenuine.
Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and it's not like I really disagree with you a ton. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

[Io]

Pretty confident in Newman, Grey, and kai being town.
To lesser extent Shadow and Massive.

[Io]

Io, ignoring that for now, what are your thoughts on the massive/Newman/Flub situation?

Well situation implies they are connected which they certainly aren't.

Newman's town but the scummiest of the group solely, not that he had other content, from the push that the only way Cloud could have been replaced is if he was Mafia hard bussing. His reason for the initial tunnel was also pretty trash with it just being that he claimed scum which no one should even take seriously. The other part of his scum read of Cloud that they were overly pushing the town slip was OK and a valid argument I think. The reason I think he's not scum pushing for 2 mislynches, as he's pushing to lynch both of you, is just because of how genuine he is in the push itself. He is stubborn, but not scum.

Flubber I just don't really know about to be honest. He shares no read with me, and was very quick to town read AJ who I think is scum. Leaning scum though which would make me think Massive is town because he's done a few quick jabs on him, 2 and the RVS.

Side note, I'm not even that confident you are town either. I'm getting the Aj & Culted scum team vibe with wither Mini or Flubber
Culted just really doesn't ever talk about AJ unless it was asking me to explain the AJ scum read, which Culted also said that other people asked so I don't see why Culted would have felt the need to talk about it. Then the only times he talked about you was at the very beginning asking for a read, something which I personally just notice a lot of scum do to partners they feel wont be too active or slightly scummy, then later on the talked about you and Flubber being TvT which is what is making me think one of you are scum. Culted is mostly a slight scum read for the lack of interactions with my stronger scum read and their overly nice behavior also just kind of feels disgenuine.
Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and it's not like I really disagree with you a ton. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

And yet your strong scum read has no explanation backing it and you haven't addressed your own blunder (the 'time traveler' issue). Your entire scum/town read is based on an idea that I'm scum, who you've yet to give a reason for in 400 in-game posts. Now associative tells are cool and all but they require a flip, and you're so very far off base to begin with that you've drawn up three additional possible scum reads with no flip and no stated reason on why you think I'm scum. You've already called out an entire group to lynch through, day 1, no flips on 'associative tells'.

Also your post serves to have another contradiction. In the first line, you state Newman is the scummiest of the group, but town. Then you state Flubber is scum, who was part of the three in the first group. Actually through your entire post, you waffle on this scum/town read on Flubber. You don't have a definitive opinion on him, and basically go from town to scum in all the shades of the rainbow in one post.

Lastly, burden of proof's on you to EXPLAIN some of this. You've got some reads that are unpopular. Really, as I've stated, this starts with you explaining why I'm scum, and then showing interactions if associative tells are really your only shows altogether.

I don't even know how to break up that post so I'll just do it in points.
"Haven't addressed why you are scum" - You lack reading comprehensions skills.
"Time traveler" - are you like high and making up terms right now?
"no stated reason on why you think I'm scum." - 'cuz you don't actually read any of my posts for some reason.
"In the first line, you state Newman is the scummiest of the group, but town." - Literally not a contradiction, you read the first line then stopped. If you would have bothered to continue reading you would have seen the explanation as to why he is bad and why the only scummy thing he did was tunnel.
"You don't have a definitive opinion on him" - Slight scum
"Lastly, burden of proof's on you to EXPLAIN some of this." - Which I did.
'You've got some reads that are unpopular." - That's not a reason to scum read that's called actually bothering to look at someone without just sheeping the crowd.
"Really, as I've stated, this starts with you explaining why I'm scum" - I did and you chose to ignore them.

[Io]

If someone had multiple posts explaining a scum read then the fact I pulled up the wrong one on accident is not that big of a deal. I just saw that post in the ISO and figured that was probably what you were asking for as it was backing up my point, I still went in and explained why you were scum from that post. I'm not going to go out of my way to look at times of posts.

You are still seriously not getting the Newman read at all. Scummy and scum are 2 very different things. Believe it or not, but town do for a fact do scummy things without noticing. The fact is while the action of tunneling is scummy the rational provided by Newman is clearly town driven.

[Io]

Scum can be paranoid. They have to worry about looking town. If anything town aren't paranoid because you don't need to fake looking town.

[Io]

This argument is clearly going to go nowhere, but I have to disagree because they would just be paranoid for different reasons at most. Paranoid of being scum read and stuff but not paranoid of who is what alignment like town would be.

[Io]

That first line is basically word for word what I said.
I said "If anything town aren't paranoid because you don't need to fake looking town."
You said "town doesn't need to even think about looking town"

[Io]

Paranoia is fear in general. Town and scum have different fears.
scum fear looking like scum, but town fear the unknown.

[Io]

@ Io. You've ignored my every attempt to question you until now and I suspect you will continue to do so, but hey doesn't cost anything to try. Why did you vote AJ based on a post I hadn't made? To me this suggests you don't really care about reasoning through your AJ vote- the obvious explanation is that you already know you want to lynch him because you are scum and he is town. Thus you screwed up by citing a post that didn't exist and have refused to explain it because you can't.

Looking back at it I just said the wrong name actually. I went ahead and re-read the first 7 pages since that's what I was referring too (mostly page 5 and 6) and I said you're name when I had meant Grey. The post I had made in 166 was in response to to 116 and the previous few posts. I just never double checked who was talking and thought it was you so then the post I grabbed from your ISO about AJ was the first one I saw from you about AJ. But yeah I was meaning to have talked about Grey not you.

I also haven't ignored you, pretty sure I've answered everything you said, most of it asking me to explain the vote which is annoying since I did it I think 5 times now 6 albeit just not realizing I said the wrong name.

@IAI no, but I'm still not seeing a reason to move it to someone else, no one has been giving any reason to vote them or another person that I have seen.

[Io]

@ Io. You've ignored my every attempt to question you until now and I suspect you will continue to do so, but hey doesn't cost anything to try. Why did you vote AJ based on a post I hadn't made? To me this suggests you don't really care about reasoning through your AJ vote- the obvious explanation is that you already know you want to lynch him because you are scum and he is town. Thus you screwed up by citing a post that didn't exist and have refused to explain it because you can't.

Looking back at it I just said the wrong name actually. I went ahead and re-read the first 7 pages since that's what I was referring too (mostly page 5 and 6) and I said you're name when I had meant Grey. The post I had made in 166 was in response to to 116 and the previous few posts. I just never double checked who was talking and thought it was you so then the post I grabbed from your ISO about AJ was the first one I saw from you about AJ. But yeah I was meaning to have talked about Grey not you.

I also haven't ignored you, pretty sure I've answered everything you said, most of it asking me to explain the vote which is annoying since I did it I think 5 times now 6 albeit just not realizing I said the wrong name.

@IAI no, but I'm still not seeing a reason to move it to someone else, no one has been giving any reason to vote them or another person that I have seen.

Hmm. Hmm. I guess it is the obvious explanation. Is there a scum motivation to not explaining you meant grey instead of me until now? I can't really see one.

Well the motivation is I just noticed my mistake.

My reasons for town reading Massive are based off of my Flubber slight scum read. It's not that I'm extremley confident he's town, just I don't think he is scum.

Pretty confident in Newman, Grey, and kai being town.
To lesser extent Shadow and Massive.

I said here my only strong reads are those 3, but my slight town were Shadow and Massive.

[Io]

Like I said it was the entire interaction between the 2, that post was mostly just the wrapping up point. 106 and 110 were the 2 main points I agreed with the most. The comfbais thing can be written off an NAI.

[Io]

@IAI I unvoted some time ago.
Debating whether or not to push Flubber a bit, but it's really not going to do anything, not like I can do much to convince you guys that Newman is pretty clear town.

VOTE: Massive

[Io]

Well no one is wanting to vote outside of those 2, so might as well just try and get the more null read one lynched.

[Io]

Also I don't see why you would use my ISO to justify not lynching massive.

[Io]

Dude you only fake hammer when Newman is online so they may accidentally claim scum.

[Io]

Dude you only fake hammer when Newman is online so they may accidentally claim scum.

So why did u lie about the unvote? It's not like u've made a ton of votes/unvotes this game that you would have forgotten.

What?

[Io]

Ok but then that wasn't a lie that was me just mixing up 2 games. Though I had already invited so I just didn't do it.

[Io]

Like that's a very petty thing to lie about the no one would purposely do.

[Io]

Null to Slight Town. Really just slight town. They look pretty good and feel genuine in most of their posts. Like it's hard imagining 713 coming from scum, and even if that's too recent for you to accept as a reason to town read 245 was also pretty genuine frustration towards Cloud's questionable plays.

[Io]

I've never seen a scum do that.

[Io]

i am? I thought it was L-3 because I had not votes on me and saw like only 4 people vote.

[Io]

I like how no one believes his claim then still says he needs to live.

[Io]

Yeah still feeling AJ, Flubber, and Culted. Maybe not Culted, but Culted it probably the most likely other person that could be scum.
I think I believe Newman's claim.

[Io]

I didn't. I would actually be rather shocked if you could pull that quote up because there is no way in Hell I have ever scum read him this game.

[Io]

Was a Vanilla Townie.

[Io]

But yeah that's a pretty poor justification of a hammer.
It also took you an hour to write that? You barely even did anything and the end reason was an information lynch which doesn't even really make remote sense at all.

[Io]

I dunno, possibly confbias, but that was a terrible reason for hammering and post in general.

[Io]

Pretty sure we did.
I mean, this game died.