Mini 506: The Siena Syndicate - Game Over!

[ChronX]

random

vote clockwork

[ChronX]

Lets throw around a little pressure

unvote
VOTE originality

[ChronX]

I have finally figured this game out :):):)

[ChronX]

unvote
vote Cynic Clinic

(for missing the GMs rule that we are here to have fun)

[ChronX]

FoS: ChronX

for voting without any reason even when things are starting to happen (Post 34).

FoS: Green Day

for reasons stated in post 19.

FoS: Originality

for jokeclaiming twice; also, both of his votes has been on those who voted him (Posts 14, 24, 30).

FoS: White

for not noticing that Peeers wasn't on the Originality wagon (Post 29).
I would vote Originality, as he seems scummier than Green Day, but I don't know how many votes he has, and I don't want to put him too close to a lynch.

I don't like putting in comical things or even saying that it is a random vote. The purpose of the random vote in the first place is to get someone to react in a scummy way. The random vote says 'i could KNOW that you are scum' if you are. If you aren't scum, then you have nothing to worry about.

I agree with this.

OK, a couple of things. You FOS'd everybody who has done anything except show up and random vote, essentially. Do you really think all 4 people who are ramping up to moving out of the random stage are ALL scum? Have some conviction. You seem to just be throwing out suspicion to see what might stick.

Second, we haven't had a night. If CC's way of playing is to be studious and serious, that is fine, but I DON't agree with the idea that in this game, the random votes can possibly be anything but random. No cop investigation, no watcher or roleblocker info, and if there are "brothers" generally each would know of the other so a random vote wouldn't accomplish much in the way of someone saying they "could" know something. For avinyl to agree with CC on this seems odd. Buddying? If I have time I am going to meta avinyl a bit and see if he is always anti-joke.

For now I am going to cast my first real vote of the game.

unvote
VOTE Avinyl

[ChronX]

Even if Orig is as town as town can be, his play hasn't been helpful in the least.

unvote
vote Originality

Yes its a hammer. At least we'll have something to talk about day 2.

[ChronX]

A Day One claim in a game that started day has no merit in or of itself. Scum could lie and claim something unlikely (like roleblocker, or psychiatrist) or lie and claim something useful, like cop or doctor, causing a situation on day 2 where the real McCoy had to counter claim, or where the town is misled into thinking they have such a role available to them. In any case, it leads to all manner of WIFOM scenarios.

The way Orig had played to that point was awful, and in my judgement it was pro-town to spare the town all the WIFOM angst. I'm also fairly convinced that the game where he picked up the daykill tactic from, it was employed by scum, so I (mis)read it as a scum ploy here. I thought when he cited me directly as part of his "ruse" he was setting up a WIFOM argument with that.

I will offer up my own WIFOM argument that while reckless, my hammer would be foolish if I were mafia. If I pay for it by being today's lynch, a lot will be learned by anyone to smart enough to analyze votes and tactics rather than words when my alignment is revealed.

[ChronX]

This is exactly an example of why I voted, and you clearly DON'T get the point I was making in that paragraph.

Parsing out every last word someone says accomplishes nothing. No one except a raw noob is going to confess to being scum. ANYthing anyone says can be spun as scummy if you are seeking a reason to target that person. If I had said nothing, it would have been , see, he must be scum he's "lurking" or avoiding my question. I offer a reasonable explanation, you latch onto one phrase and try to give it legs.

Keep in mind that YOU started the bandwagon on Orig, drove it out of the random stage, and badgered the shit out of him throughout. Should we revisit your reasons and make you justify each utterance you made (17 posts on Day 1, the majority hammering on townie Orig)?

[ChronX]

My suspects based on Day 1 voting and behavior which seems intended to lead the town down garden paths:

1. Clockwork, right in the middle of the wagon, and seriously, a BUS DRIVER?
2. White led the charge against Orig (his own words post 73) and had plenty of opportunity to relieve some of the pressure and instead called for a claim. Could be scum tactic to drum up targets.
3. Vamp-H, portraying the slightly overwhelmed player who doesn't understand what is going on. Cast an important vote (L-2)
4. Avinyl, keeps throwing around suspicions for strange reasons. I don't see the tie in for CynicClinic to be suspicious because GreenDay random voted him. I would say
5. GreenDay is more suspicious for his post in which he asks for the claim from orig. As stated earlier, I don't think a gallows claim from orig was in the best interestes of the town, at all.

FoS Clockwork

will probably lead to that being my vote to start today rolling

[ChronX]

EBWOP: When I say Green is more suspicious, I mean than CynicClinic. I see CynicClinic as stuffy but sincerely looking for scum. His logic seems to follow my ideas regarding AVinyl, and his L-1 on Originality is just as much a sore thumb as my hammer that I regard it as the same class...a town tactic.

ChannelDelibird was showing promise, I like his last post where he comments on the 4 vote CC wagon. Where'd he go?

Hadhfang has also disappeared. Likewise tyhess.

Ah, Peers. Has theories based on page 1. Also, i see now that that was where Avinyl was going with his Greenday thought. My bad. I hadn't closely analyzed the apparently absent or the more pro-town people.

And further edit: Greenday probably didn't need a number in the top suspects list since he is dead. i was just making the point that who he random voted is not very material, IMO.

[ChronX]

pbpa of Clockwork:

Let's avoid those sorts of jokes in the future. It's probably not meant as such, but it does look vaguely scummy (i.e. trying to plant the near-subliminal, coquettish "Maybe I am, maybe I'm not" idea) and

it can make reading through back posts trickier later on

.

Vote: Avinyl for being the first to vote without giving a reason (e.g. "random").

Emphasis mine. If Orig's play was jokey and unserious, why would you read back to it later? When searching for a genuine roleclaim perhaps?
Was your vote of Avinyl random? Given your complaints about others playing erratically and jokey, your stated reason would then be construed as serious.

Next post, unvotes.

ChannelDelibird, I'm curious: Why have you left your vote on White?

FoS: originality for either (a) using extremely faulty logic (and trying to cover it up afterwards) or (b) making very counterproductive jokes. (One of these must be true.)

I'm curious, why are you protecting White? You do it again later.
Second thought is fine on its own merits.

Vote: originality.

If you decide to start being productive, I may unvote.

Translation: "If you start being more productive, this bandwagon will die and I will need to look for another one to hide in"

Next post: Suggests bus driver. I believe in Occams Razor. We already know we had a Roleblocker. Do we seriously think in a mini normal game we would have the potential for a Roleblocker AND any sort of Role reflector (Bus driver, Bomb, whatever)? Elite Bodyguard would be a better fit given greenday's surprised "bah" post, but I still think a Doc save and another night killer is the most likely scenario. Given how little credence you give this idea publically, I think you are trying to distance from it.

Okay, how is being in the *middle* more suspicious than being at the end? Mind explaining that?

Plus I said I'd unvote him if he stopped being difficult -- not an offer I seem to remember any of you making. You're the one that actually hammered him, for crying out loud...

Also, what's your problem with me suggesting it could have been a bus driver? How is it any less likely than there being a doctor and a vigilante? I'd say it's more likely if only because it posits the existence of one non-town/mafia role and not two.

You're being very erratic, IMHO.

BTW, ChannelDelibird, did you have a reason for ducking my earlier question?

Working backwards, why are you STILL defending White from CDB's random vote of him?

I don't see me as being erratic. I voted Avinyl for a reason, I hammered Orig for the reason I stated (I don't like noose around the neck claims), and after defending the hammer, I posted my list of suspects and town-leaners.

Explained above my reasons why Bus Driver suggestion is overtly scummy to me.

I also explained in an earlier post why middle is scummier than the hammer. The hammerer HAS to be able to defend themselves; for one thing, it makes them the most likely cop investigation. Scum have an easy time of hiding in the middle of the wagon...they can deflect.."my vote was only L-4", "what about the other 6 voters?", "what about party X who hammered?". At LYLO the scum wait and try to be able to hammer. On day 1, scum try to build momentum for a wagon that others finish.

Most recent post, I won't paste it because it right there...again with the pairing with White. My paragraph at White was "unchivalrous"? You must have missed the point of that paragraph...White's argument against me can be just as rightfully used against him as the prime mover of the Orig wagon, and he would have nothing other than the same WIFOM defense essentially.

vote clockwork

with authority

[ChronX]

In layman's terms, I haven't encountered a "bus driver" role or any role similarly peculiar in a game with fewer than 20 people. Big games with 2 or more mafias, several investigative type roles, etc lend themselves to weird roles. In fact, you need them in big games just to get people to sign up...if everyone was mafia, or vanilla, with a cop and a doc, most people would get stuck with townie and it would be boring as hell.

Since this is a mini game, in the NORMAL subsection of minigames, I think a role as creative and involved as a bus driver is so unlikely as to be ludicrous.

In order of likelihood:
1. Doc saved mafia's target, Greenday killed by another night killer (vig or SK). With my hypothesis being that there is a doc, then I suspect there to be a SK. Vig, doc and roleblocker would be an odd setup for town. SK, mafia, cop doc and roleblocker would be pretty balanced.
2. METAGAME: Greenday seems to have given up on mafiascum. He is at L-1 in another game and refuses to claim, asking to be killed and saying he can't be "stuffed" to bother with mafia anymore. If he told the mafia that during the night, it would create quite a clever WIFOM scenario to kill him themselves. Unlikely, but the next most likely scenario, IMO.
Skip many layers of probability to
3. Reflector role. Among such roles, I would buy some version of "Bomb" (kills you if you target them, maybe survives?) or an Elite Bodyguard (like a doc, but also kills the mafia or SK who tried to kill the guarded target). Bus Driver? Again, just seems way too involved for a mini normal game. And why i think proposing this is scummy is that it distracts the town from the more likely scenario, and also sets up a claim if he ends up on the block. He can say he was breadcrumbing....
**************************
Clockwork defends White. White now defends Clockwork.

[ChronX]

Hahaha, I wasn't defending anyone. I was merely curious why suggesting the posibility of a role being in this game was so scummy. Your case seems a bit far fetched there ChronX is all.

ChronX, ever since late yesterday (game time) you've been acting like your back was too the wall. Very defensive and quick to anger. What's going on man? If you want you can pm me if it's serious.

Huh? In this game or generally? In this game, I only posted twice tonight since last night, and not at all last night. Once was my case against clockwork, which I predicted was going to be my vote a few days ago. I'm not angry, I'm emphatic, I believe in my case. The only thing keeping me from taking the next step and suggesting he is SK is the buddying between you and he. I feel no need to be defensive in this game; I KNOW I made a conspicuous act with my hammer, I was fully aware that a possible indeed likely consequence was pressure today, I can handle it. I'm not going to wilt under the pressure, I am going to continue to hunt scum and defend myself. I am not going to view attacks on me as scum tells, because I SHOULD be under pressure. My exasperated post at you on Thursday was due to that I think you (from what I've seen of you metagamey) should know better for what I was saying with my WIFOMy declaration of my status and that you shouldn't have challenged me on THAT. I was not "claiming" I was explaining the complete chain of my logic for hammering. IF I'm lynched, and IF I'm shown to be town after that lynch, THEN the town will have more pertinent info to work with. That's the game.

I do tend to like to engage, and maybe that does come across as defensive. And I am sarcastically ironic, so maybe that comes across as angry. But no, no RL issues creating undue pressure.

[ChronX]

EBWOP: If your post was sincere (seems to be) thanks for the concern (sincere).

[ChronX]

To be fair, White, other people besides Avinyl are taking the open-ended strategy of not being suspicious of anyone at all. For example, Tyhess hasn't made a real post yet in the game, aside from a lukewarm defense of Peers.

[ChronX]

unvote
VOTE ChanelDelibird

conversation starter. Didn't commit on day 1, and today as cynic pointed out, chose probably the weakest case among the suspects he pointed out to vote.

[ChronX]

He "IGMEOU"s Vamp twice, and I hammered, which IS pretty suspicious. All he had on Peers (you) was you made what could have been a leading statement in the post of yours he quoted.

My vote is very weak, but the alternative right now would be to agree with his weak case on you and put you at 3 votes, which I don't want to. The primary purpose of my vote is to stimulate discussion, this game has tumbleweeds at the moment.

[ChronX]

ALERT: Family plans most of the weekend, which includes Monday (US pseudo-holiday). Very limited time to spend on Mafia.

[ChronX]

unvote

I'm not sold that VH is scum, my other experiences with him is that he is just a weak player who likes the idea of mafia better than playing. However, he's not the sort of player we want around at LyLo so its probably to the town's benefit to lynch him either way. But I want to *cringe* reread before I vote him.

[ChronX]

vote clockwork

He seems to want to find the popular wagons to hide in. Overall play appearing to appear to be town but hasn't really followed any of his own thoughts very far.

[ChronX]

I cast my vote and basically nothing has happened since, certainly nothing to entice me to change my vote.

[ChronX]

mod votecount to go with that DL pls? THX!

[ChronX]

Wow, that's.... in-depth. I find myself agreeing with most of it, but I have one question.

You list both ChronX and Avinyl on your scumlist. Avinyl has two votes on him already, ChronX has none, so you vote for... one of the two on your list who have no votes.

Given that it will be harder to lynch ChronX than Avinyl, why vote the way you did?

Oman's vote is personal. Look at his sig. He doesn't play the game right, he tries to lynch people he doesn't like.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Team_Asshat

[ChronX]

I'm taking the claim with a grain of salt, but it would seem to be an over reaction to mild pressure as a defense of the pressure. I'd say, 65% I believe the claim, which is enough for now. Looking elsewhere.

[ChronX]

Gee, Clockwork and White/Oman are following each other around again. Be less blatant, although the WIFOM of "scum wouldn't act so openly in concert" is strong.

[ChronX]

What source are you considering Clockwork? I know you can't fathom where you screwed up and gave off the scumtells that I've picked up on, but you are leading the league in scum for me. Stop taking it personally.

Up until your vote, I hadn't considered Oman's vote scummy, just predictable. Now, I take that back, once again the link between Clockwork and White-now Oman-emerges.

Clockwork has a chance to double up on OMGUS voting. He delays it for my vote on him, moaning instead about my personal vendetta (dude, I've never seen you in a game before, whats with the paranoia?); now he jumps in on someone else's case, with the benefit of a little controversy to boot.

Once again Clockwork is there to defend his scummate, White/Oman.

Die, scum, die.

Confirm vote Clockwork

[ChronX]

/panic on

OH NOES. I've confirmed "everything" Clockwork has said about me! HE'S RIGHTER, BECAUSE HE SAYS SO!!!!!

unvote

/panic off

Oh, no, wait, he's still scummy.

vote: Clockwork

[ChronX]

OK heres his case

I'm always suspicious of people who start a game close together in time, so don't take it personally. It is compounded by the fact that Avinyl voted you for his random vote.

First to really wagon in 26. I'm gonna give town tics for that.

In 34 he abandons the Origwagon for something he admits is not scummy (just not fun). Why drop a wagon so few posts after?

Votes Avinyl (post 41) after a really scummy post with some good gear.

Hammered before claim.

Post 95 explaining the hammer sucks so bad. Scummy!

ChronX lists Greenday on his set of supicious people. I don't know who killed Greenday, but he certainly wasn't on my Scumdar D1. For this reason, I think ChronX tried to put both his buddies in that post. FoS: Vamp FoS: Avinyl

In that same post, you say white is suspicious for not reliving pressure on orig. YOU HAMMERED HIM!

Post 125 on Clockwork is complete crap. You're not even trying. You "translate" a few posts that were pretty clear cut. Phail.

ChronX in 127 wrote:
I haven't encountered a "bus driver" role or any role similarly peculiar in a game with fewer than 20 people
I haven't encountered you not being a woman, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Oh, and number two in your list is crap.

ChronX in 183 wrote:
unvote

I'm not sold that VH is scum,
Scummbuddies!!!

ChronX in 217 wrote:
vote clockwork

He seems to want to find the popular wagons to hide in.
2 votes is hardly a popular wagon. Edit: Clockwork says the same thing the next post

1. I'm scummy because of the timing of my first post, near someone else he thinks might be scummy. Avinyl's random vote is on me. How do I defend that? He says he ALWAYS finds it scummy. VERDICT: No case.

2. Gives me town credit. VERDICT: Less than no case.

3. Misses my post in between my vote and unvote which is loaded with smileys. I'm still in the random phase in 34, which maybe he can't tell (I vote for the stated reason that CC missed the GMs rule to have fun....random votehop) VERDICT: Making this vote/unvote scummy is seriously twisting the context. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he wasn't here to "feel" it

4. Post 41, I state "I am casting my first real vote of the game". Undoing the benefit of the doubt in item 3 above. Read while making your case. VERDICT: I can't tell if Oman is giving me credit for town play or suggesting that my vote on Avinyl is distancing from him because of Oman's later case that Avinyl and I are in this together. I consider my calling out Avinyl for his crappy post town play.

5. Hammer and the hammer defense. *shrug* I've defended myself on that, to White. Oman IS White. I don't need to re-explain myself to the same role, do I? Its all back there to read. If Oman wants to re-open discussion of my hammer with specific questions, I'll be glad to discuss it further, and let the rest of the town decide whether it is productive scum hunting.
VERDICT: Old news. Other people don't agree with my hammer, some do. Its WIFOM case at best, either way, his attack or my defense of the subject.

6. Goes ad hominem on me with his woman comments, doesn't agree with my case or presentation of it on Clockwork. Says things Clockwork has been saying. To use Oman's logic about me and Avinyl, SCUMBUDDIES!. ps for those who say I started it, refer to that little piece of his case on me to see who started with the sarcastic personal attack first.

7. Scum "pairs" me with 2 other people, when we have already had one mafia member die. Most common sense set up with a mafia member dying at night is that we have a serial killer. So one of the essences of Oman's case is that we have FOUR mafia members (me, Avinyl, Vamp, and dead Greenday) AND most people conclude a serial killer. If we have a SK, then common sense suggests we have a roleblocker or 1shot roleblocker, and we have a claimed miller. Quite the set up that Oman's case hangs together on.

So, there is my defense.

Logical town players will echo Peers question, Avinyl already has votes, and Oman fingers him as scum. Wouldn't his vote have been more productive on Avinyl, if it was not furthering some other agenda by landing on me? Of course, if he knew his scum buddy was going to get a bandwagon going....

confirm vote Clockwork

When Clockwork comes up scum we will have easy pickings of Oman/White. The link has been there all along.

[ChronX]

EBWOP to point 7: Serial killer or vig...a role which actively kills at night, rather than a role reflector.

[ChronX]

One other thing, he calls me out for my post in which I enumerated suspicious people from Day 1, including Greenday. He ignores the fact that I promptly clarified that to indicate that I was answering the question of whether Grrenday or CynicClinic was more scummy on day 1 (the whole thing about whether the NK was likely to be from someone who had a vote on them from GD).

[ChronX]

I'll wait for Clockwork to come and say you are being personal against me and not giving me the benefit of the doubt. I was asked for a case defending myself and gave one. HOW DARE YOU DEMAND IT BE A GOOD CASE? WAAAAAAAAAAAH!

(Did I whine up to your ability Clockwork?)

[ChronX]

Ugh.

The last 2 posts force me to change how I approach Clockwork.

His soft claim is scummy, but in light of the latest post, where he claims newb, it puts a lot of his play into a different light.

Clockwork, are you convinced of the alignment of White/Oman? I AM NOT asking you to indicate which, or how you might know, but since you have implied you have a "role" you are putting yourself out there as something more than vanilla (if not, take home lesson from this game will be phrasing).

UNVOTE

[ChronX]

vote Avinyl

[ChronX]

@mod: Please replace me in this game

I am not going to participate in games on this site anymore due to its tolerance of open flaming and open cross gaming by Team Asshat and probably others since they get away with it.