Open 43 - C9+2 GAME OVER before 499

[vampyrusddg]

Greetings all, just a post to confirm my replace, I've had a quick re-read and will come back for a more thorough one later, a few things which stick out to me at the moment:

Ryan: He's turning the game into a back and forth shouting match with several players. You seem to be under the impression that anyone attacks you is scum, this is definitly not true as we only have 2 scum, you need to lay you personal involvement in the game aside and start analyzing rather than coming up with one line retorts to accusations and trying to deflect.

CA: I don't hold the same impression of CAs early play as my predecessor, it's almost always the subtle stuff from the random phase which helps, people who posture and stay under the radar rather people who stick out like sore thumbs need watching more a lot of the time.

unvote

to everyone else (especialy those highly suspicious of Ryan):

who would you guess were a scum pair at the moment? (i.e. who is Ryan's partner if we lynch him and he does come up scum?)

[vampyrusddg]

vampyrusddg: Explain to me how setting a trap (MoS) is pro town?

this could work both ways, you could catch newbie scum with it, or newbie town, you an normaly tell the difference by putting some pressure on after they take the bait. It's always a risky tactic (because you draw a lot of agro to your self as well) but can be very effective. I definitly wouldn't say it's a scum tell, unless it was in a LYLO situation

[vampyrusddg]

You misread what I said, I stated it was "Anti Town" Setting traps that can easily catch townies is NOT a pro town move.

you obviously choose to ignore my point that wether they are town falling into the trap or scum taking the bait is determined when pressure is put on them, and how they (and the other players) respnd to it. Most of the time when someone is leapt on in this manner your not just looking at the person in the spotlight, your looking at the discussion around it. More discussion is good for the town, even if the center of that source isn't definitly scum, you put someone up to L-2 in that situation it would take 2 scum to quick lynch revealing themselves in the process, if I got lynched to get 2 scum under fire I'd be happy with that situation

[vampyrusddg]

And when you don't give somebody a chance to defend anything, you look like scum pushing a wagon

and it's when they stop trying to defend against nothing and start scumhunting again that they clear themselves, take a look at day 2 of mini 474 which has just finished to see a townie under pressure and coming out the other side okay, a bit of a different principle because it was all about a quick hammer on day one, and the main aggresor was scum (Muerrto) but Nelly came out the other side of it and we ended up lynching scum instead of him, based off what was happening around the argument

[vampyrusddg]

Welcome Jdodge

At the moment I'd say my prime suspects would be Ryan and Setael.

Ryan: I find his play very scummy, after replacing in a game with him in and replacing in another where he had already been lynched I find his general argumentitive style of play scummy, but just because he's always scummy doesn't stop him from being scum.

Setael: So far his posts can be divided into 2 categories, #1 defensive over very small mentions, #2 oppurtunistic early votes on wagons or attempts to start them over very minor things.

vote Setael

He looks like scum to me, Ryan to me is a 50/50 chance, but Setael looks scummy as hell

[vampyrusddg]

So arguing is scummy? Interesting take Vamp, wrong, but interesting.

Arguing with one line retorts is, debating issues back and forth and putting your view of it across is another thing altogether, a lot of your posts fall into the former category which just encourage your target to come back with similar one liners and everyone else stays out of the way while it's going on, take a look back at your own posts and see how your quips stop the town communicating for a while, it's harmful to those who are scum hunting.

[vampyrusddg]

Setael: So far his posts can be divided into 2 categories, #1 defensive over very small mentions, #2 oppurtunistic early votes on wagons or attempts to start them over very minor things.

Can you please quote some examples of this? I assume you're talking about my vote on Fernando but you said "votes". Were you just trying to exaggerate, or do you have further examples? Also, please quote this defensiveness over very small mentions.

why can't me and ryan agree on something? luker hunting is so pro-town and pro-game that i'm amazed that you really thought about give us a FoS.

This particular "lurker hunting" feels contrived, and pointing it out with the "look how Town I am" plug looks scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Fernando

putting a second vote on Fernando quickly after the first.

@MoS: Why did you choose to vote me instead of Deathsauce when we were both voting Fernando for the same reasons?

after MoS called you out for placing the quick second vote. He was the only person voting you at this point and had pretty much answered this when he placed the vote

Then post #108 is looking far too hard to throw suspicion on TylerJ and when Fernando calls you out for it and FOSes you we get:

while Tylerj defended me

I'll keep that in mind.

pouncing on a tiny snippet of a post for a quick snide remark.

post #127 is just an actual vote on TylerJ after you realised that you didn't unvote first time so it wasn't counted

Setael: Setael voted for Fernando for his lurker post. He then made a long post against me on things that weren’t scummy in an attempt to falsely corner me. Also it seems that Setael seems to be lurking with enough posts to keep from being noticed.

First of all, SHE not he.

Second, can you explain to me why you would FOS me instead of voting me if you think all that is true? Seems to me like you're avoiding voting for me because my vote is on you, which I can see scum being very aware of.

calling out TylerJ for FOSing you rather than voting for you, not the least suspicious in my eyes, an FOS is basicaly warning someone that you think their playing scummy, this is quite a bad knee-jerk reaction for a FOS

Yeah... maybe I'm missing something. My point was that your paragraph about MoS seems to mostly just point out things that seem pro-Town (like the Fernando clarification) whereas your paragraph about me sounds vote-worthy. If you really think I was intentionally writing things "that weren’t scummy in an attempt to falsely corner" you - why didn't you vote me?
Bottom line is, according to your post, your case on me seems a lot better than your case on MoS so it looks scummy not to vote me. The only reason I can see is you avoiding people saying "Tyler just voted Setael because she had voted him. OMGUS vote!" which is, of course, the kind of attention scum would want to avoid.

backing down after TylerJ pointed out that he FOSed you because he was voting MoS, although pointing out the OMGUS thing again even though TylerJ had, as you put in your own words, built a case that seemed vote worthy against you. A return vote with a case is not OMGUS, OMGUS is voting someone just because their voting you.

#140

It kind of makes it look more like OMGUS for you to feel like you need to say "This isn't an OMGUS vote."

again pushing the OMGUS thing even more, just arguing a point you'd already destroyed yourself

#143 & #148, flippant one liners, posting with no real content

#169 an unvote with some encouragement for lurker hunting

#183 ducking into the fight between Ryan and MOS to take a cheap shot at MoS as Ryan seemed to be on the ropes a bit

#185 trying to help out Ryan over the whole "I am not scum" argument

#193 voting my predecesor for lurking

and thats about it, all though looking back and quoting a lot of them now, theres a whole load of non-content and large chunks of time where you've done nothing other than poke at lurkers to make it seem like your not lurking...

[vampyrusddg]

Bold is me.

Setael: So far his posts can be divided into 2 categories, #1 defensive over very small mentions, #2 oppurtunistic early votes on wagons or attempts to start them over very minor things.

Can you please quote some examples of this? I assume you're talking about my vote on Fernando but you said "votes". Were you just trying to exaggerate, or do you have further examples? Also, please quote this defensiveness over very small mentions.

why can't me and ryan agree on something? luker hunting is so pro-town and pro-game that i'm amazed that you really thought about give us a FoS.

This particular "lurker hunting" feels contrived, and pointing it out with the "look how Town I am" plug looks scummy.
Unvote; Vote: Fernando

putting a second vote on Fernando quickly after the first.

Let's keep in mind how early in the game that was and that it was only a second vote. A little pressure is good, especially considering that there is very little to go on that early. Wagons = information.

not that early in the game, even if it is scum under pressure their just going to throw it back on you for jumping on a bandwagon with flimsy evidence. The fact that Fernando didn't jump back at you is interesting though but lets give Jdodge a chance to get into the game before we head in that direction.

@MoS: Why did you choose to vote me instead of Deathsauce when we were both voting Fernando for the same reasons?

after MoS called you out for placing the quick second vote. He was the only person voting you at this point and had pretty much answered this when he placed the vote

Can you tell me how he had "pretty much answered this"? Because if he had, I would not have asked the question.

in post #66:

Unvote, Vote: Setael

Feels opportunistic to me, riding the anti-lurkerhunting wagon that I started in order to jump on Fernando. I actually don't think Fernando is suspicious for his post. Rather, I think he's inexperienced and didn't know better. That's why I clarified for him.

Then post #108 is looking far too hard to throw suspicion on TylerJ

This was the first game I was in from the beginning. All my others I'd replaced in. Obviously, it's tricky early on because there isn't much to go on. I picked the person I found the scummiest and presented everything that could've been possible scumminess. Maybe it looked like "trying to hard to throw suspicion" on him, but it was really me trying to build a case on someone when it's still early enough in the game that there's not all that much to work with

good answer, and the only to give, thats sounding more pro-town

and when Fernando calls you out for it and FOSes you we get:

while Tylerj defended me

I'll keep that in mind.

pouncing on a tiny snippet of a post for a quick snide remark.

Yep. Was trying to get a reaction out of Fernando. You weren't here, so you don't realize that it felt like the game was going nowhere. Reaction checking is definitely appropriate in that kind of situation.

good answer again

post #127 is just an actual vote on TylerJ after you realised that you didn't unvote first time so it wasn't counted

Setael voted for Fernando for his lurker post. He then made a long post against me on things that weren’t scummy in an attempt to falsely corner me. Also it seems that Setael seems to be lurking with enough posts to keep from being noticed.

First of all, SHE not he.

Second, can you explain to me why you would FOS me instead of voting me if you think all that is true? Seems to me like you're avoiding voting for me because my vote is on you, which I can see scum being very aware of.

calling out TylerJ for FOSing you rather than voting for you, not the least suspicious in my eyes, an FOS is basicaly warning someone that you think their playing scummy, this is quite a bad knee-jerk reaction for a FOS

That's your opinion. It could also be exactly what I pointed out that it could be: scum not wanting to vote me for fear of looking OMGUS and scummy.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one Tyler was in no danger of looking OMGUS because he had posted a case against you, not just moved his vote over to you with no reasoning

Yeah... maybe I'm missing something. My point was that your paragraph about MoS seems to mostly just point out things that seem pro-Town (like the Fernando clarification) whereas your paragraph about me sounds vote-worthy. If you really think I was intentionally writing things "that weren’t scummy in an attempt to falsely corner" you - why didn't you vote me?

Bottom line is, according to your post, your case on me seems a lot better than your case on MoS so it looks scummy not to vote me. The only reason I can see is you avoiding people saying "Tyler just voted Setael because she had voted him. OMGUS vote!" which is, of course, the kind of attention scum would want to avoid.

backing down after TylerJ pointed out that he FOSed you because he was voting MoS, although pointing out the OMGUS thing again even though TylerJ had, as you put in your own words, built a case that seemed vote worthy against you. A return vote with a case is not OMGUS, OMGUS is voting someone just because their voting you.

I know that. I was pointing out that Tyler seemed to be leaving his vote on MoS rather than voting me (even though according to his analysis post he had more reason to vote me) because he didn't want to be called out for an OMGUS vote and therefore look scummy. Also, where is the "backing down" here?

maybe backing down is the wrong term, just sounds to me like your trying to give yourself more wiggle room, paving the way for your eventual unvote to make sure your not accused of suddenly backing out of a line of thought thats going nowhere

#140

It kind of makes it look more like OMGUS for you to feel like you need to say "This isn't an OMGUS vote."

again pushing the OMGUS thing even more, just arguing a point you'd already destroyed yourself

I definitely disagree that the point had been destroyed.

Not by him, no, but to my mind and most experienced players will agree theres little chance of it being looked on as an OMGUS vote. That whole exchange reeked of scum on both sides though

I find it very annoying that you did not bother to quote the rest of the posts, but instead merely gave a number for them along with your incorrect interpretation. You get minus 5 points for laziness. It wouldn't be such a big deal, but you clearly twisted them and skewed them as negatively as possible. Minus another 5 points for scumminess. Give me a few minutes while I quote them all for you.

Simple time vs. effort, sorry but most of the rest of your posts held little real content, lurking in plain sight pretty much. I prefer people just popping there heads in and saying "I'm still reading, having got much to say" rather than just coming in with the stuff that follows

Goddamn. If I was mafia with Setael and ChocolateAttack, we'd be the best damn mafia ever. I don't think the three of us have been on the same side of an argument all game.

Does that make me bad Town?

Though you called this a "flippant one liner" it was obviously a joke. grow a sense of humor.

joke intended or not it's still a one-liner which contributes very little to the game or furthers discussion. I'm not saying it's that scummy, but it's not helping the town in any way.

well, if it helps add to the argument im not less suspicious of any of you even after all these posts.. no one stands out as truly town or truly scummy, just a few people seem equally scummy but too many..

#148 was me responding "That's helpful." Maybe I should've written /sarcasm after to clear it up for you. Or did you need a treatise on the post and why his unhelpfulness and wishy washiness was scummy?

again pointing this out and calling him out properly for lack on contribution would have been a lot more helpful than another one-liner

#169 an unvote with some encouragement for lurker hunting

I can see why you didn't quote this one since there was no way for you to misconstrue it as scummy. Heaven forbid you quote something that would make me look Town - that would ruin your whole agenda. Here's the post:

You still haven't answered my question two pages ago and you've been quiet (to say the least)

Was this directed at me? It appears as though it was since it came with your vote on me, but I'm confused because I don't remember you asking me a question and I looked back a few pages and don't see any, and I've hardly been quiet. Can you give me a post # where I can find that question?

Jordan's reaction to my case was decent and he has been acting pretty Town lately so for now Unvote.

I have a feeling all the scum are just lurking. I'd like to hear more from Fernando and Mr. Pigg.

Lurker hunting isn't as pro-town as you think, as is often said lurkers come in all flavours, and are a favorite scapegoat of scum. I don't find it that scummy here more misguided as you weren't really deflecting from anything else that was going on at the time.

#183 ducking into the fight between Ryan and MOS to take a cheap shot at MoS as Ryan seemed to be on the ropes a bit

Hmmm... that doesn't sound accurate at all. Let's take a look at the actual post, shall we?

I had no plan, did I? What about the fact that

careless scum would be so eager to jump on my "slip", or whatever you want to call it, that they would forget that this is an open setup, and that C9+2 only has two mafia

, so I couldn't be distancing from a "couple of" my scumbuddies. Nor was I making a badly supported argument that us "three couldn't be on the same side".

The part I italicized doesn't really make sense to me... it seems like scum would be the LEAST likely to forget that there are only two mafia... since they know that they are mafia with only one other person. Am I missing something?

I think you should admit this is a very viable point, and apologize for twisting it so blatantly. Either to me if you are Town, or if you are scum, apologize to your scum buddies for being so obvious.

I won't aplogise for having my own point of view when reading this, we're all biased by how we chose to read things and how we translate the content around it, that's just how it reads to me

#185 trying to help out Ryan over the whole "I am not scum" argument

Well, I don't remember defending Ryan, so I guess we should quote the actual post, eh? Here it is:

Saying "I am not scum" is hardly role claiming.

Why interpret this as "helping out ryan" rather than "calling out Tyler for accusing ryan of role claiming when he obviously hadn't"? You clearly tried to put a scummy coating on it that wasn't there, which was helped by the fact that you didn't quote it, just like the rest of these.

See my point before, your answering something for Ryan, something he could easily have refuted and scoffed at himself. I can see it as one of 2 things, a) taking Ryan's side in an argument to help him out as he constantly picks arguments, b) posting pretty much non-content. I leaning towards just misguided posting and feeling the need to say something to show your still here.

#193 voting my predecesor for lurking

One bonus point for being accurate about something and for not trying to conjure up nonexistent scumminess FOR ONCE.

I don't see how a Townie would've skewed things in this way. Your post seemed almost assuredly scum attempting to create a case out of nothing by twisting everything I've done.

once again, my own point of view, I only know one persons role in this game and thats me, everyone elses posts are open to interpretation, some you may not agree with but that doesn't make them any less valid than your own views and translations, about any minor slips scum may or may not have made. If we don't attack each other and put cases forward we don't get any scum hunting done.

[vampyrusddg]

Sorry I havn't been posting much over the last week, I have been keeping up, but didn't have enough time for long posting and didn't see anything which required immediate input, I'll be making a long post tommorow (hurrah for days off!)

[vampyrusddg]

Sorry guys, havn't been meaning to lurk so much, but lots of demands, I caught up with my other games the other night and meant to post here the next day but didn't get a chance

I have been keeping up though

unvote

meant to do that after our exchange Setael.

I don't find the case on Jdodge strong enough for me to hammer, not theres been much of a case presented just back and forth arguments, as I'm reading it your planning to lynch him just because he was lurking for a while, and lurkers come in all flavours.

So I'd like to hear from ryan why he's abandoned TylerJ when he was so certain he is scum. MOS was there to apply pressure with him, I can understand him backing off and following other leads but Ryan just seemed to jump on the next vulnerable target, a lurker, a tactic I've seen scum put to good use.

I'm not saying lurkers shouldn't be persued and made to speak up, but lynching them based just on that is very bad strategy

[vampyrusddg]

vampy: I believe I applied pressure on a lurker who crumbled when he was given it. He's admitted that he's lurking on purpose and to me lurking on purpose to hurt the town is anti town. I would not be surprised to see JDodge being the quiet scum while one of our our others who's been talkative is the one leading, is that something you don't buy?

I'm not saying that Jdodge doesn't look bad, I especialy don't like this heavy WIFOM:

you do realize the whole lurking thing can't be explained until i know if it works or not, right

basicaly saying we've got to trust him with this tactic. I think what he's trying to say is he's lurking on purpose to make himself look scummy and therefore not a good NK target for the scum, because we're so suspicious of him and he's therefore handy to have about as a potential scapegoat for them.

That of course does not work as we could end up lynching him in a LYLO situation later, it's a ill conceived town tactic and leads to this kind of WIFOM where it looks like town thinking (although poorly thought out) and would be good cover for scum using it and pleading townie or a power role later on. If that is what your trying Jdodge, give it up now.

But you only partly answered my question Ryan, your case against TylerJ looked much better than this, and if you'd brought all the evidence together you could have got more than just MoS to apply pressure, it makes it hard reading and difficult to keep up with when all your points are in seperate posts scattered across several pages. Why abandon that course? you seemed a lot surer about TylerJ than about Jdodge.

[vampyrusddg]

Well at the moment it looks like neither me nor Setael would hammer Jdodge, which leaves Thinktank and MoS, would either of you be willing to hammer? If you are then it's time for Jdodge to claim, if not lets move the discussion on, we're starting to get stale.

[vampyrusddg]

If you read back guys I'd already said I wasn't willing to hammer, I was trying to find out if any of the people not on the wagon were willing to vote so Jdodge would know to claim or wether the wagon had gone as far as it could based on current evidence so we could move on. Seems MOS has now solved that for us though...

[vampyrusddg]

no roleblocker, read the set up, must have been a lucky doc protection, Which gives us some information.

As for Jdodge, he looked slightly scummy to me, not enough for a lynch in my opinion which is why I said I wouldn't hammer, but with him saying he wouldn't RC even if someone said they were willing to hammer I don't blame MoS for the hammer. It sounded too much like scum breadcrumbing a power role.

[vampyrusddg]

no roleblocker, read the set up, must have been a lucky doc protection, Which gives us some information.

As for Jdodge, he looked slightly scummy to me, not enough for a lynch in my opinion which is why I said I wouldn't hammer, but with him saying he wouldn't RC even if someone said they were willing to hammer I don't blame MoS for the hammer. It sounded too much like scum breadcrumbing a power role.

And I JUST said in 610 to scratch that.

Yeah, you hadn't posted the 2nd time when I started, sorry

[vampyrusddg]

I agree. I called Vampy on what i saw as a very scummy post but he sort of replied but the answer was neither here nor there so im still waiting on that. He hasnt posted in a while, and the last time he admitted to lurking so that worries me.

Read back, as I stated I was calling to see if there was someone willing to hammer Jdodge or not as both I and Satael had stated we wouldn't hammer, which left MoS and you. If neither of you were willing to hammer then that wagon would have been dead no matter how much the others pushed, you only have one vote. If there was someone willing to hammer then Jdodge should have claimed. I don't see anything scummy about it at all, I was trying to move the game along rather than having another 2-3 pages of people bickering with one liners.

[vampyrusddg]

Your insistance that we should lynch you if he comes up town would most likely not work anyway.

QFT

proving your town means you know as little about DS's role as all the other town players except maybe the cop (if we have one) and wouldn't make any of us believe you any more. Bring a proper case against DS, quote him, explain why you think those posts or actions make him obvious scum, if you are town thats the only way to give your opinion weight, theres no cheap way out.

[vampyrusddg]

vampy, are you reading the game? I DID bring a proper case against DS. Just because you are dismissing it doesn't make it a bad case.

Sorry Satael, I wasn't saying that you didn't bring a case agaist him, just trying to continue the point of "offering yourself up for lynch is only going to hurt the town" and no I havn't overlooked it, I just havn't offered an opinion on it yet because I thought it was well thought out, but misguided. If we lynched just on the basis of that I would feel we'd got lucky if DS came up as scum rather than finding scum through good judgement.

[vampyrusddg]

Vampy: Who are you suspicious of and who arent you suspicious of and why?

I'll hopefuly get round to doing a player by player tommorow (first time in a fortnight I won't be on a close at work, woot!) or the day after (day off, even bigger woot!) I would have done this sooner but I don't want to do a half assed job so will wait till I've got time to hack through the whole game so far.

[vampyrusddg]

Sorry guys, my PSU has fried so I'm going to need a replacement as until I can get it replaced my acsess is going to be sporadic at best

I've PM'd xyzzy, hopefuly see you all in a month or so when I'm back up and running