Mini 500 - Cult Mafia - Game Over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (9) = 9

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Dr. Blackstrike

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is everyone voting Flameaxe? I'm with Theopor that it's odd that I was mentioned for having not posted (I didn't know the game had started and I was watching for it in Theme Park), but everyone else is ignored. I know for a fact that Theopor was posting, because he and I just finished a game together where he was nightkilled right before the game ended.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I never said I was "attacked". You're putting words in my mouth.

[Mastermind of Sin]

pwayne, if you do some research, I always random vote when I enter a game. I've done it on later pages than page 4 before.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to have to give Pwayne townie-brownies for what I feel to be geunuine anaylisis of each player.

Sigged. I rofl'd

[Mastermind of Sin]

Everything you say can be turned against you. I still believe that, and I've been here longer than anyone in this game, afaik. You just have to choose your words carefully, although less so as town than scum. Even so, a lot of things I do in my playstyle are results of changes I've made to keep people from using retarded arguments to attack me for stuff that doesn't mean anything.

[Mastermind of Sin]

CKD looks town/cult to me. I like most if not all of his responses and questions.

My town-looking list includes: Pwayne and CKD for now (I feel like I've forgotten someone).

Scum-looking list includes: Flameaxe and Theo

Cult-looking list includes: CKD and tyhess (of course, it can only be one).

Any objections?

nope, you didn't miss anything. Of course there's only 8 people in a 12-person game! Everyone knows that. No worries.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Make that 5 people in a 12-person game. You listed CKD three times.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #7

theopor_COD[3](Oman, vollkan, tyhess)
tyhess[2](curiouskarmadog, ac1983fan)
Flameaxe[1](Dr. Blackstrike)
Dr. Blackstrike[1](Mastermind of Sin)


Not Voting[5](pwayne66, Flameaxe, Rump-Wat, Trojan Horse, theopor_COD)

It's true. I meant 6, not 5. Oman would obviously count himself That's where the 8 came from, anyways.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I mean...>_>

*runs*

[Mastermind of Sin]

theopor and flameaxe seem protown. We should place pressure on CKD.

[Mastermind of Sin]

theopor has seemed genuine to me so far, and his posting has been full of content. Besides accusations of lurking early on, he has been contributing since then.

Flameaxe also seems genuine. He's smart enough to not mess up this early as town, and I think that a lot of his "vote-hopping" was just randomness. When he did extra "vote-hopping", it was because he was done being random and wanted to make a serious vote that just happened to not be on the person he was voting before. In addition, I don't think there is anything inherently scummy about vote-hopping, as long as you have a reason that you can give to back up your votes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not really WIFOM, Oman. Coming from him, yes, it might be WIFOM. However, there is no incentive to make huge moves as scum early in D1, because it only gets people to suspect you, and it ultimately reduces your chances of living to endgame, because they'll always remember how scummy you were on D1, if nothing else.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, there is not much incentive for townies to do anything other than what they feel like doing. They don't have a reason to control and edit what they say, because they are protown. They don't need to reword their posts to put the best light on it, and they don't need to watch what they say to avoid stepping on toes. Protown players have a lot more freedom to do things that could be considered "scummy", because they know ultimately that they *are* protown. I almost never try to avoid being scummy by sacrificing saying my opinion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

When I'm scum, I attempt to make it look like I'm playing the same way I always do, but I also tend to edit my posts and look them over to see if I've said something that will draw undue attention to myself. I don't ever like getting attacked for random crap that doesn't actually mean much as a scumtell, but I hate it even more as scum, because in that case, they lynch me for a crap reason and actually get it right on accident.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait. I have a "developed plan" on theo and flameaxe? Does this mean they're town and I'm scum, and you think I'm playing them, trying to gain their trust?

I have more questions, but I want this answered first. No way I'm going to let you backtrack out of this one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry Plan was probably the wrong word to use. Perhaps "developed stance".

Does this mean they're town and I'm scum, and you think I'm playing them, trying to gain their trust?

I think they're both scummy, and you're scummy for ignoring that they are or at the very least ignoring why.

Oman is basically saying that you should have joined the wagons unless you can articulate a good reason why not to, and he thinks you are scummy for that.

Actually I don't feel he should have joined the wagons. My point was more that he didn't and his reasons were unsatisfactory. I don't mind people not joining a wagon saying "theres enough on them" or "my gut says no" but the fact that he tried to put some "factual" (in the context of the game) reasoning behind it makes me uncomfortable.

So, your theory is that I'm scum and They're possibly scum and I'm taking a "developed stance" on them why? I'm not sure what the point of your accusation is. You don't have to be sure of our alignment, but your statements suggest a theory. I want to know the specifics of that theory.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And what is a "developed stance"?

He finds them both to be "genuine" which I read as "town". Thats fairly deveolped.

MoS has ignored the actual reasons for the suspicions, but why does that make him scummy?

Because town have no reason to discount reasons like that. I can't see a townie saying "well yeah, but I'll ignore your reasons and just comment on the ones I want to"

He had no obligation to wagon, but you are going to suspect him if he doesn't give good reasons not to?

Read what I said, I don't mind if he doesn't wagon. What didn't sit well was him implying he had reasons to beleive theo and flameaxe were both town, even though he ignored the case on them.

I didn't read any cases on them. I wasn't going to be influenced in my opinions when asked to say what I think of them, because it's all too easy to just paraphrase the case and make yourself look good without really trying to say what you think. I only read their posts in isolation before saying how I felt about them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, so let's assume that I'm scum with one of them. What is your theory for the motivation behind creating a "developed stance" on them?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Apparently I'm not the only one ignoring things...^^

[Mastermind of Sin]

And what evidence do you have that this is something MoS-scum would do?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, surely you've look at other games that MoS has played in, so that you can back up your arguments by showing that he was exhibiting behavior that has been documented as scum for him, right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

The reason I suspect him originally began with his small half-post about theo and flameaxe. Then his defence contained very little about the actual case on them.

I'm not sure what the motives are in that, I'm not sure why either type of MoS (protown, scum, neutral, cult) would have done it, but it didn't sit well with me as a protown action.

The answer to that is easy. Just because it's not the answer you expect doesn't mean it's not true. Town-MoS would obviously just want to tell the truth, and that would be the motivation for saying what he did.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Talk about brains hurting, I'm not even sure I follow what is going on anymore

It seems that:

1) MoS posts defending FlameAxe and Theo
2) Oman calls him out for it
3) MoS and Vollkan beat the hell out of him over semantical issues.
4) Lost in the dust is any answers from MoS on how he reconciles Flameaxes' actions against the Doc. Lost is his answers about how posting content clears Theo.
5) MoS doesn't bother reading other's viewpoints as they might influence him
6) This is AOK with Volkan.

Am I missing something?

I'm not arguing semantics. You missed that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

NO! I never do that. I can't stand that metagame strategy and I will not take part in it.

So, you don't like having proof that someone has slipped up in their scum playstyle and lynching them as scum? Why would you not support a metagame that kills scum? This seems odd to me. It's one of the few metagames that actually works on a majority of players. It is illogical to not support it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because there is a difference. I have said they seem protown to me. That's it. All I said is that I read through and they seemed genuine to me. It's not like I'm saying they haven't done anything that can be seen as scummy. However, I believe that what they have done was what they believe to be in the interests of the town finding scum, as opposed to some devious scum plan.

Oman, on the other hand, has called ME scum. Not scummy, scum. Voting someone is not a mark of "scummy". You vote someone because you believe they are the most likely scum out of everyone living in the game. That is a much stronger position than what I took for Theo and Flameaxe, so of course I'm going to question him on it. It's not like I've ignored the questions he asked about what I said. I answered him, even if he didn't like the answers. I feel that I am at the very least entitled to ask questions of him, because he's

trying to get me killed

. There is a big difference between that and me saying that I'm not willing to vote someone at the moment. I don't care if he doesn't like what I said about those two, honestly. I'm not "admonishing" him for it, as you said. He can think what he likes, but if he tries to kill someone I know is protown, I'm going to do something about it, obviously.

[Mastermind of Sin]

pwayne, if you do some research, I always random vote when I enter a game. I've done it on later pages than page 4 before.

Just because you do it a lot doesn't make it right, smart or helpful. Give a real defence next time please.

Please tell me where I said it was any of those things. My point is, you can't call me scum for doing something I always do. You can't call me town either, but the fact remains that it is a complete null tell.

Now as far as this particular schtick goes, it *IS* helpful, and it *IS* smart. But that isn't really pertinent, so I won't waste your time going into a long argument over it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

White, my first post in the game *was* the dice roll, so of course there wasn't much posting from me in the first four pages. I had to get prodded to know the game had started.

I'm not going to argue with you about the vote. I said I wasn't going to argue with it, and I'm going to restrain myself from doing so, because it's obviously an exercise in futility. Nothing will be gained by arguing opening post game theory strategies.

[Mastermind of Sin]

True. Maybe he could refrain from accusing people of whining and having crap ideas until then.

It's how I play, suck it up and get used to it. Some people around here would call it agressive.

Hypocrit. Don't attack me for "how I play" and then turn around and expect to be able to defend yourself with it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9p-44nORo4

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where was I uberdefensive over 1 vote? I thought you actually had an argument there, but I was thinking of the wrong game. There's another game in little italy where I got pissed off at someone over stupid shit. That wasn't this game. If you think how I've acted in this game is overreacting, you've got an education coming.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why should I? I see no reason to do something just because you say so.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, well, stop evading and deal with the stuff brought up against you. It's all visible if you look in the previous pages. Oh and MoScum, post your scumdar.

My scumdar is

all visible if you look in the previous pages

.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mastermind of Sin:

So far, seems to have been playing exactly as per form, except for the fact that he didn't jump in until some time had passed. Unusual for a veteran like him, but perhaps he just forgot about this game.

The mod prodded me to let me know the game had started. Didn't people call for me to be prodded or something? I can't really remember the first few pages anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

My scumdar:

Mastermind of Sin:

Lurker and then just posted theory stuff. Things seem to have sparked off with #209 which was the “Theo and Flame seem genuine” post. Evidently, people think he has been overly-defensive, though I am a little unsure as to whether I would react differently if someone accused me of having a "developed plan". I don't think the suspicion of him is unreasonable or baseless, but I don't feel strongly about MoS yet.

On top of that, I'm still waiting for anyone to show that my response was overreacting

at all

. As far as I recall, my response at the time was fairly logically based and non-emotional, which is not something that is paired with overreactive and defensive. However, I will state that a response such as that is not the norm for me, but I don't really have a reason for why I acted differently. Normally, my response *would* be one of incredulity, but I guess I decided to see if Oman could back up his accusations or something.

[Mastermind of Sin]

:twist:

[Mastermind of Sin]

And? Voting me isn't productive. Besides, I couldn't resist.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Its your desire to help the town that makes me convince you're not scum.

Well at least one person here has done their homework.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Looks like someone else has done their homework as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mastermind of Sin:

He was the one that had a random vote on Page 4, which I thought was a littles scummish, but that has been explained as just not being there. I still don't like the vote, but I will give him the benefit of doubt (For now)

Oman:

No read yet. I know it's late in the game, but I'm still going to wait him out.

ac1983fan:

No read (obviously).....needs to post......possibly the cultist and just reading posts???? probably not, but possible

Dr. Blackstrike:

I've been keeping my eye on the Doc since his original idea. Someone thought that his quick apology for the idea was good for him, but I think it made it even more suspicious.

curiouskarmadog:

Nothing scummish imo yet.

pwayne66:

Pro-town, imo

vollkan:

Pro-town, imo

Trojan Horse:

Interseting player. At times I have thought scum, but don't really have a real read on him yet.

Flameaxe:

Same as Trojan Horse

White (r. Rump-Wat):

Is posting A LOT. He says aggressive, and I'm starting to actually beelive him. He is doing the exact same thing in the other game I'm in with him. So either he's scum in both games, or that is his play style. For now I'll beleive him.....I think that as much talknig as he's doing has to be pro-town.

theopor_COD:

Still my vote. Possibility to change quickly.

So, because of this list, he has Theo, myself, and BS on top? I am his second highest suspicion because I rolled a dice for my random vote entry into the game on page 4? I gotta call bullshit on that one.

Vote: Tyhess

MoS:

I still don't like that post about Flameaxe and theo, for the same reasons that he ignores a lot of game content when he posts them. He ignores a question from me in 211 about blackstrike. MoS either doesn't read or is constantly twisting people's words (see: 228)

ZOMG NOTE:

You don't have to be sure of our

alignment

SINGULAR! Theo and MoS a team? Or Flameaxe and Mos? (I'm not sure to who he refers). MoS wants me to metagame him (?)

244 Mos likes to WIFOM himself in 3rd person. 248 MoS proves he doesn't read the game by saying I called him scum.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/typo

The reason I suspect him originally began with his small half-post about theo and flameaxe. Then his defence contained very little about the actual case on them.

I'm not sure what the motives are in that, I'm not sure why either type of MoS (protown, scum, neutral, cult) would have done it, but it didn't sit well with me as a protown action.

The answer to that is easy. Just because it's not the answer you expect doesn't mean it's not true. Town-MoS would obviously just want to tell the truth, and that would be the motivation for saying what he did.

How is this WIFOM? I didn't tell you to take a conclusion from this. There is no motivation for a protown person to lie about things like this. It is not WIFOM to say that someone with protown alignment would be motivated to tell the truth.

And you lie again. I have read the game. Shit, had you actually read 248, you would know that I already explained how you called me scum, and you wouldn't have tried to make this argument.

White I dislike white's analysises. Basically you're either newb, scum, or neutral.

If by "neutral" you mean pro-town, then what is the point of even saying this. You are basically saying "White is newb, scum or town". Ignoring the fact that newb is not an exclusive option, this is pointless.

If you don't mean pro-town, then what?

I believe Oman was referring to white's analysis, not white himself. It sounds like Oman was saying that, according to white's conclusions, everyone in the game is either a newb, scum, or neutral. Does that help explain things for y ou?

[Mastermind of Sin]

White - No. I ain't being forced into doing something. Deal with it. I'll post if and when I want too, I'd disagree that I'm being particularly unhelpful - fact is I think everyone's lists are a pile of shit. I've also looked at MoS's post and have no intention of joining his wagon . . . go read a whole host of MoS's games he's scum quite a lot, infact I think I must have played about 4 games with him and he's always scum . . . at this stage I don't find him to be overly scummy.

QFT

This post saved your ass, theo. I just went through your posts, and this was the only post where you actually addressed the conversation about me. IT would've looked rather bad if you were all over acfan for not answering questions, but you ignored me doing the same thing. Shame, for a second there I thought I'd drawn out a scum with my antics.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else has avoided talking about me.

Has anyone noticed that almost everyone in the game has found a way to put me in position for them to go after me, even if they haven't actually presented any opinion on me being scum. Even people that were agreeing with me a lot put me at like #3 on their scumlist, giving themselves the option to jump onto my bandwagon if it gets closer to deadline. Theo and Trojan Horse are the only people who have defended me and stuck by it so far.

[Mastermind of Sin]

acfan - lurking
CKD - said he expected me to act different if I was scum, but left himself the opening to switch opinions without anything momentous happening first
Dr. Blackstrike - has ignored conversation about me completely

FoS: Dr. Blackstrike

Flameaxe - says I'm not helping much, but doesn't really offer an analysis on me, just reiterates actions I've taken
Oman - attacking me
pwayne - attacking me
theo - defending me
Trojan Horse - defending me
tyhess - attacking me on crappy reasoning over stuff that's not even relevant to the game
vollkan - agreed with me a lot and defended me a bit, somehow managed to put me at his #3 suspicion when he "doesn't feel strongly about MoS"
White - attacking me

I have to say, pwayne absolutely owns White in this post. I didn't notice this before, but it's not only fucking genius, it's a good characterization of White as well.

It's how I play, suck it up and get used to it. Some people around here would call it agressive.

...some say aggressive, some say obnoxious. I can see that there are many things that I am going to have to suck up and get used to though. Among them are: gross mis characterizations, double standards, evasiveness and an over powering sense of self importance.

I will try my best. I also apologizing for not "getting" your shtick, I just had a hard time believing that anybody would

choose

to play that way. I assumed that it was a flaw in your personality. I was wrong. Sorry.

QFFT

[Mastermind of Sin]

Could it be because you're acting like scum? Evading questions? Being anti town? (please answer these questions)
You're setting yourself up for being lynched and if you turn up town...not too many people will be saddened, some people (myself included) would call you deadweight. You are contributing next to nothing.

No, I'm not really acting like scum. I'm acting like what you *think* is scum, in your limited experience of playing with people who aren't very good at being scum.

Sure I'm evading questions. It's fun, and it draws scum out of the woodwork as the react to it.

Anti-town? Nah. I just operate differently than you do.

Suck it up and deal with it

Whoever said this was a genius. 'keffed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh yea, sorry for the triple, forgot something. You consider me deadweight because you aren't stopping to consider whether or not I'm actually trying to accomplish something with what I'm doing, instead just jumping ahead to the easy solutions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok then, care to elaborate on what you're doing and how it's effective? I also don't see how you drawing suspicion to yourself isn't giving the scum an easy ride to tomorrow...

See? You already know more than you think you do. If I'm giving scum an easy ride to tomorrow, why not inspect more closely those who are taking said "easy ride"? No sane scum would pass up an opportunity like this, although I would not be surprised if at least one scum was on the fringe or away from it altogether, just so they aren't all connected. However, that's beside the point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you're saying you're deliberately encouraging people to bandwagon you and we're supposed to then sort out who's taking an easy ride and ignore the others? Or are we supposed to look for....?

That sounds like a really bad plan there MoS....heck, even if I were scum i'd be attacking you. Gosh, it's an easy way to look like i'm helping the town by attacking someone that willingly submits themself to it. Dude...that's really....not IC-ish...

Not sure whether you're scum now or not but that's a really bad and unthought out plan....

Are you saying you're giving yourself up for a lynch? Because if not then your plan fails miserably.

Exactly. If you were scum, and for all I know, you might be, you'd be attacking me. Because scum feel that attacking the obviously scummy person makes them look protown, they are more likely to do it. Scum tend to stay away from attacking newbies that are scummy too much, because it's not protown to bully newbies around when they likely just don't know what they're doing. So, I gave them an IC target, someone they couldn't resist to jump on. And it seems to have worked. Now we just need to evaluate. That's what this whole game is about, isn't it? Look at what people do, who votes who, who defends who, and find scum. So let's do that.

That doesn't make sense MoS....your portraying yourself as a vanilla townie who wants to get lynched....it seems like someone is following the Doc's advice....and i don't get how if we jumped on you it would look like we were scum.....there would have to be about 4-5 people to lynch you, and theres only 2 mafia +1 cultist.....so who would you want us to lynch then when we would be down to possibly 7 protown vs 2 mafia vs possibly 2 cultists??? doesn't seem protown to me.....and what happens if we got an all out lynch on you (7 people)....then that would mean at the minimum 4 protown players......it wouldn't give us any extra info......

FoS MoS

WHOA WHOA WHOA. Who said I was vanilla townie? I certainly didn't. I'm not saying I'm anything. Who said I was willing to get lynched, too? That would be retarded. Letting myself get lynched would be giving the scum a free pass to tomorrow, as White was saying. It would take a really bad town to decide to lynch me before looking for the scum. Even if I was scum, it'd be likely that I was being bussed, so every single protown player should be analyzing my wagon instead of just waiting for me to be lynched.

There aren't 7 people on me, or I'd be dead. There are less people than that, and I'm 99% sure there is at least one, so we've got a good shot. A second one is probably among those sitting on the fence and leaning towards me.

Oman, White, pwayne, tyhess. The four people who have attacked me this game. 1 of them is scum. Oman doesn't seem like the one. He's been fairly genuine in his thoughts and willing to change his mind. Still possibly scum, but the least likely in my eyes. White is overly aggressive and likes to insult people as well, but it's possible that's just a behavioral problem. I'm willing to bet that one of pwayne and tyhess is scum. My money's on tyhess, but pwayne has been playing a pretty conservative game, in the fact that he hasn't really done much to stir people up and get a lot of attention. So much so that he might have an alterior motive for avoiding it. One of Flameaxe, Vollkan, and CKD is scum as well. Let's do some hunting, people!

[Mastermind of Sin]

CKD - said he expected me to act different if I was scum, but left himself the opening to switch opinions without anything momentous happening first

Well, what would you like me to think? You admitted that you were intentional being unhelpful and scummy. My review of you was that I didn’t really buy the arguments against you at a time and I requested what I would like to see from you. Now, you are putting content out there and participating, have I attacked? No…I think you are helping the town. I didn’t attack you before because I thought it was too easy…which made me curious. Which again, I mentioned in my review that if you were scum, I thought you might act different. It was a defense for you of sorts…

I understand this. I don't have you high on my list of suspicion, but if you were scum, that's what your action says to me. That's not saying you are scum, but the fact that what I said could happen from where you're sitting is still true.

The only thing you have said recently I didn’t like was this.

Has anyone noticed that almost everyone in the game has found a way to put me in position for them to go after me, even if they haven't actually presented any opinion on me being scum. Even people that were agreeing with me a lot put me at like #3 on their scumlist, giving themselves the option to jump onto my bandwagon if it gets closer to deadline. Theo and Trojan Horse are the only people who have defended me and stuck by it so far.

Seemed like you were playing a victim. It seemed that if anyone in the futures decides you might be scummy afterall, you can always fall back on this. Do you think that is was just you that “almost everyone” would turn on? The game is ever changing…and opinion will change…I personally think that you are townish now..does that mean 2 pages from now I will? No…if you say or do something I think is scummy, I will call you on it….am I scummy for changing my opinion later?

Not really. I was just trying to point out that my wagon was obviously being supported by some of the scum, since everyone was in place to jump on. I'm not the victim, I purposefully caused this to happen.

Enough is enough MoS. Your saying that your an easy target and that's why scum would be attacking you. I think its more of the fact that you found yourself in a hole, couldn't get out, and now your going to play this card of anybody who votes for you is scum.

You really love misrepresenting people, don't you? You're almost as bad as White. It's sad how you guys are calling my strategies stupid when you do shit like this. If you're town, twisting everything someone says so that it says something completely different is *not* going to find you scum. I found that out the hard way.

First off, I didn't say anyone who votes for me is scum. If I thought that, the game would be over. I would've found all the scum by now. What I said is that scum are likely to jump on easy bandwagons when someone is acting obviously scummy, therefore

one

of the people that voted me is almost certainly scum. That's called logic and deduction, but then you obviously don't know about that.

You said that you didn't want to be lynched, but the way your acting to me seems like it does matters to you but your trying to use reverse psychology so that no one would vote for you, and if they do you can yell scum.

Not going to happen

Unvote, Vote:MoS

Still keeping an

FOS:theo

This paragraph doesn't even make sense. I don't want to be lynched, but it matters to me, and I'm trying to use reverse psychology to no one would vote me, then I call them scum? How could I use reverse psychology in saying that I

don't

want to be lynched? Think about what you're saying here. This is like a stream of consciousness post. That makes less sense than BM's usual posts. Please think about what you meant to say and rephrase it.

MoS, I find it really hard to believe that's what you've been doing. Setting yourself up as scummy and then expecting everyone to flop away from your bandwagon because you come up with a lame and uncreative excuse is just newbish. This isn't a newbie game, as has been pointed out, so why in the WORLD would you expect the mafia to be classic mass produced stereotypical scum? My vote is staying on you for now but if you could hunt and mount a case (separate from "**** voted me, therefore they are scum") i'll be more willing to take my vote off of you. Hopefully (if you're town) you'll learn from this mistake. Acting scummy when you're town never ever works.

I must've missed where CKD was being a jerk to me...I don't feel any hard feelings toward him at all....?

Looks like pwayne was right. Double standards and mischaracterizations *are* the norm for you. You tell me I shouldn't expect scum to do any classic moves or be stereotypically scummy. Yet, when I act like a stereotypical scum, not answering questions, not actively helping the town, you think I'm scum? Bullshit. Try again, buddy.

I can. Especially from someone like MoS. Not scumhunting is interchangable with allowing scum to live another day. If you're not hunting, you're helping. As for his defending suspected townie? That would be called buddying up to the town. Scummy again.

Especially from me? What the fuck do you know about me? You know nothing me, otherwise you wouldn't think I was scum. Don't come up with bullshit reasons to keep from having to unvote me. "Especially from someone like MoS" my ass.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod Edit: Quote tags fixed BY REQUEST.

You're almost as bad as White. It's sad how you guys are calling my strategies stupid when you do shit like this.

Guess what? I also got lynched for bulling this crap. I would've expected much more from you, shame.

This makes even less sense. You're saying you got lynched for acting like I'm acting? Then you shouldn't think that I'm scum for acting this way. You should know from past experience that it's a bad lynch.

You tell me I shouldn't expect scum to do any classic moves or be stereotypically scummy. Yet, when I act like a stereotypical scum, not answering questions, not actively helping the town, you think I'm scum?

Scum, used as a plural. Seeing as you're experience but choosing to ignore such knowledge and act like newb scum, yes, I can see you being stereotypical. However I find it hard to believe your partner to be stereotypical other than that they may be on your wagon because of your likelihood of going down the drain.

Hmm. So, you think that because I'm acting like newb scum, I'm experienced scum? This makes no sense. Please explain how me acting like a newb makes me an experienced scum. That's a contradiction in and of itself. It sounds like if I was acting more reasonably you'd say I was experienced scum, and if I act less reasonably, I'm acting like newb scum, but I'm still experienced. Not only does this defy logic, you're just fitting the circumstances to the assumption that I'm scum, rather than taking the facts and seeing if they actually make sense.

Btw, stop putting words in my mouth. I never EVER said don't expect the scum to do anything classic or stereotypical. That's actions. I said don't expect the scum (people) to be mass produced stereotypes. Oh...and nice ever reactions there bud, 4 lines with 4 swear words. Did I hit a nerve?

Actually, it was more like 1 line with 1 swear word. Learn to count, bud. Even if you're scum retardedly religious dude that thinks stuff like "stupid" is a swear word, there were only 3 in 4 lines. However, bullshit is merely an adjective used to describe something that is a ludicrously false statement, but combined into one word. Ass is not a swear word, either. "My ass" is merely an expression of incredulity. There is nothing vulgar about it.

My vote is staying on you for now but if you could hunt and mount a case (separate from "**** voted me, therefore they are scum") i'll be more willing to take my vote off of you.

Uh...waiting...

When I find someone I'm sure is scum, I'll make a case for them to be scum. You don't need me to guide you around like sheep. This statement is a complete contradiction of what you've been saying. Before it's always "he's obvscum", but now you'd be more willing to unvote me if I just attack someone? That makes no sense.

I'm not the victim, I purposefully caused this to happen.

Wait. So you purposefully got us to vote for you, but since some of us

are

voting for you, then one of us is defiently scum. That makes a lot of sense. Basically what you're saying is that if anyone votes for you they were looking for an easy way out and they are scum. You said youself that you put yourslef in that position, meaning that you admit it is scumlike.

Whether or not I purposefully acted scummy doesn't really make a difference. If I had acted scummy on accident, you wouldn't have been able to tell the difference, and it wouldn't changed anything. Also, I admit that I played classicly scummy on purpose. I didn't play how scum *should* play, which is what you're implying. No scum that actually knows what they're doing would act like this, but newb scum don't know what they're doing. Therefore, I hoped to trap scum by giving them a target acting like newb scum, hoping that a real newb scum would fall for the trap by not thinking about how an experienced scum would play. The people who aren't attacking me are not clear either. However, I severely doubt that all of our scum smelled a trap, so I have very much narrowed down the field for finding at least one scum. Apply pressure in the right places, and a scum may just pop out at you. You never know until you try.

So basically we're not suppose to vote for someome who puts them in a position to look like scum based on the fact that they say it'll make us look like scum.....

No. You're not supposed to vote for someone who puts themselves in a position to look like scum based on the fact that you've looked into how said person plays as scum and town and have been able to deduce whether or not they would play that way as scum. It has nothing to do with looking scummy. Townies don't need to worry about looking scummy. It's far more important that protown people find scum than not look scummy. At the very least, if all else goes wrong and you die, your word is then trustworthy after your alignment is revealed, even if they can't figure out that they should trust you beforehand. However, that doesn't mean that townies should *want* to die. They should not try to hurt the town in an effort to live, but they should never be willing to be lynched, unless there is some strategical reason it will help the town.

Wait. So you purposefully got us to vote for you, but since some of us are voting for you, then one of us is defiently scum. That makes a lot of sense. Basically what you're saying is that if anyone votes for you they were looking for an easy way out and they are scum. You said youself that you put yourslef in that position, meaning that you admit it is scumlike. So basically we're not suppose to vote for someome who puts them in a position to look like scum based on the fact that they say it'll make us look like scum.....

You make a good point.

If MoS is town, then it is quite likely I would say that scum is/are on his wagon. However, the problem is that MoS has been scummy by his own admission, he says intentionally. As such, I don't think the fact that people have wagoned on MoS is evidence of potential scumminess at this point of the game, because we don't know MoS's alignment. I mean, suspecting one of the wagoners might be valid, but it requires an assumption that MoS is pro-town.

As I said with Tyhess, I fail to see how me doing this intentionally is relevant at all. If I was accidentally scummy, it wouldn't change what I did, and it wouldn't change who was going to attack me. It's not like all the scum could tell the difference between accidental and on purpose. They're going to act the same regardless, for the most part. There are town on every wagon, but people still look for scum on wagons, yes? There is no reason it can't be done in this instance. It's not like I was so obviously scum that no townie in their right minds would stay off my wagon. This is evidenced by the fact that only 4 people have voted me out of 11 possible. I gave the town a wagon, and there is very, very likely to be one scum found on it.

He hasn't done anything overly scummy in my eyes, call it a defence or whatever but I feel he's pretty laid back and looking more to trap people than attack easy targets.

And you're okay with that? A "trap" as MoS has laid it is just as likely to catch town as scum; it is not helpful at all unless MoS's alignment is known and, even then, because it is so reasonable for town to jump on the wagon it really proves nothing.

See above.

3 days since last post from acfan. 7 days since last post with any substance from acfan. Tick tick.

I eagerly await theo's next post, as he completes his breakdown of all the players. Hope he doesn't think I'm too scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Trojan Horse

This feels way off to me. You hope he doesn't think you're "too" scummy? I see no reason to make a post like this. You've made posts like this earlier, asking me if I was going to attack you now, or something like that. You keep acting like you expect to be scummy, you expect to get heat from other players. It's almost as if you expect to be lynched. Other than these remarks, you haven't seemed that scummy, so I don't see any reason a protown player would be worried about their scumminess. You haven't done anything of note for a townie to worry about.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Isn't MoS's theory really just one massive OMGUS to everybody that has had the audacity to ask him some simple questions and expect to be acknowledged? Don't answer that MoS. (reverse pyscology? or reverse reverse pyscology? hmmm...)

Point is: MoS is anti-town. MoS is pro-MoS. He claims his tactics are meant to bring scum out into the light, but conveniently he is the only one that can correctly divine the results of his tests. Somehow, only MoS knows how many assumptions the town can safely make when untangling his elaborate WIFOM arguement. MoS is the only person that can say what questions he ought and ought not consider answering and then only he can determine what assumptions should be drawn from his decisions. Sounds like a scum utopia.

Oh really? So you're so helpless that I am the only one who can take any conclusions from other people's actions? This game is not cut-and-dried. I am the only one who knows my alignment, but that shouldn't stop you. You don't lynch someone and *then* try to figure out what info can be gotten from it. You do your analysis first.

You can make as many assumptions as you need to make. You make all the assumptions. Making all the assumptions is better than making no assumptions. Assume I'm scum and work out who my partners might be. People are assuming I'm scum right now, but they aren't even trying to find my partners. I get accused of not being helpful to the town, yet the people attacking me aren't being any more helpful. If you're going to assume I'm scum, you should also assume I'm town and work out who might be scum in the situation. You need to consider all possibilities, and you aren't doing that. No one is.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What I said is that scum are likely to jump on easy bandwagons when someone is acting obviously scummy, therefore one of the people that voted me is almost certainly scum. That's called logic and deduction, but then you obviously don't know about that.

Thats called logic and deduction? It seems to me that it requires us to do two things: 1) assume that one of the people on your wagon is scum. 2) assume that you are not scum. Where I come from, that's not logic. That's called a leap of faith.

As I said before, it's logic to make all assumptions and see where it leads you. You don't just sit around going "hmm, I don't know whether or not this guy is scum, so I'll just sit here and not think about anyone else besides him until he's dead".

Especially from me? What the fuck do you know about me? You know nothing me, otherwise you wouldn't think I was scum. Don't come up with bullshit reasons to keep from having to unvote me. "Especially from someone like MoS" my ass.

Aside from the fact that he watchs too much Jerry Springer, we know this about MoS: he likes metagaming unless it is used against him...

No. I always like metagaming. The people attacking me are not metagaming me. If there is any metagaming being done to prove that I'm scum, please link me to that game. The only people that have metagamed me have come to the conclusion that I am protown. You would know that if you weren't just making things up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

RRR.

Vote: MoS

. This is not about his latest vote on me; I guess I deserved that, after I made my "hope theo doesn't think I'm scum" comment without tacking on a smiley. This is about my gut feelings about him being scum.

I've been sitting around without voting for too long. It's time for me to (at least temporarily) commit.

Gut feeling is not a good reason to put a fourth vote on me. You should know better than that.

Vote MoS

I'm going with Trojan Horse here, that last vote was obviously a joke about theo thinking I'm scum or something and then saying "but thats probably just OMGUS".

I don't know MoS, can we stop this game and get back to the scumhunting.

What was obvious about it? Trojan Horse may have put a non-serious expression to it, but it was not the first time something like that had been said. I felt that some pressure should be applied, because statements like that are just appeals to emotion, and they can subconsciously get people to lean towards not voting the person. Better curbed now than let it continue.

Unvote

[Mastermind of Sin]

If MoS is town, then it is quite likely I would say that scum is/are on his wagon. However, the problem is that MoS has been scummy by his own admission, he says intentionally. As such, I don't think the fact that people have wagoned on MoS is evidence of potential scumminess at this point of the game, because we don't know MoS's alignment. I mean, suspecting one of the wagoners might be valid, but it requires an assumption that MoS is pro-town.

As I said with Tyhess, I fail to see how me doing this intentionally is relevant at all. If I was accidentally scummy, it wouldn't change what I did, and it wouldn't change who was going to attack me. It's not like all the scum could tell the difference between accidental and on purpose. They're going to act the same regardless, for the most part. There are town on every wagon, but people still look for scum on wagons, yes? There is no reason it can't be done in this instance. It's not like I was so obviously scum that no townie in their right minds would stay off my wagon. This is evidenced by the fact that only 4 people have voted me out of 11 possible. I gave the town a wagon, and there is very, very likely to be one scum found on it.

MoS does kind of have a point here; I myself am among those who were not convinced by the case against him. The early accusations of defensiveness seemed to have no basis of me and then things very quickly jumped to him saying it was intentional.

The problem is that nothing MoS has said can be seen to have any basis without knowledge of his alignment. Maybe the wagon is informative to MoS, but it says nothing to the rest of us other than that people chose to wagon on someone who was scummy (though I question the scumminess of MoS at least initially).

MoS, you say this was your plan, presumably you have some idea of how to make it actually function to our benefit? It is no good saying we should focus on the wagonners and not you, because that requires a significant assumption on our part.

Like I have said previously, you don't need to know my alignment to analyze this wagon. This is not a game of absolutes. You can look at all possibilities for my alignment and make conclusions based on what you find out. The wagon on me has very nearly kept everyone from focusing on anyone else in the game, and that's exactly what the scum want. You can't just wait for me to die before looking for scum. When I come up protown, what then? You just wasted an entire day looking at me and no one else. That's what White and Tyhess want us to do, and for all their talk about me not acting in the town's interests, neither are they. It's all double standards when it comes to those two.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS does kind of have a point here; I myself am among those who were not convinced by the case against him. The early accusations of defensiveness seemed to have no basis of me and then things very quickly jumped to him saying it was intentional.

This still gets me. It seems that all of the MoS apologists have reduced his actions and the case against him as defensiveness while the case against him is about refusing to cooperate.
For me, this bandwagon is and always has been about pressure. If the town is going to win, it is going to be because EVERYBODY posted content and answered questions. Instead we are rewarding and praising some attention starved, John Wayne wannabe by saying "It's ok if you don't want to talk" and "oh jeez, I don't know why everybody is being so mean to you..."

Instead we have a town that pressures a person that IS talking into shutting the fuck up and doesn't want to pressure somebody that's not talking in order to get them to answer a mounting list of questions.

jtfc.

pwayne, the only person being pressured is me. No one else is being required to supply content or be helpful. White and Tyhess are leading a double-pronged attack on me, and doing nothing else. This game isn't about me. There are more than one scum in this game, and we can't win by looking at one person at a time. You wait until I'm dead to pressure someone else, and you've wasted a day. The cult will have recruited someone, the mafia will have killed someone, and you've lost a lot of opinions that you could have used to find scum. For the latter half of this game, the only momentous discussion has been me defending myself against attacks that don't even make sense half the time. This is not helping the game. If you want to talk about helping the game, do some of it yourself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This still gets me. It seems that all of the MoS apologists have reduced his actions and the case against him as defensiveness while the case against him is about refusing to cooperate.

Key word in what I said was

The

early

accusations of defensiveness

I didn't buy that argument which seemed to be the main thrust of the case at the time.

He has refused to co-operate since then, though now he has merged that with his ridiculous "I'll act scummy to trick people" thing. Maybe he sees that as a contribution, though I don't.

You think I'm not contributing? I'm one of the few people that are actually talking about more than one person lately. Nearly everyone that is attacking me has had blinders on for the last few pages. With 3+ people attacking me constantly, I don't really have time for much more than defending myself. Put yourself in my position and see if you would let yourself be lynched while you were off trying to find possible scum. I'm attempting to multitask, but I don't have a lot of breathing room to do it in. The few people that don't buy into my wagon are voices lost in the fog.

For me, this bandwagon is and always has been about pressure. If the town is going to win, it is going to be because EVERYBODY posted content and answered questions. Instead we are rewarding and praising some attention starved, John Wayne wannabe by saying "It's ok if you don't want to talk" and "oh jeez, I don't know why everybody is being so mean to you..."

Don't interpret this as me pandering to his inaction; I have been saying all along that we should pressure MoS. That was the very reason I put him at number 3 on that list, if you remember. I hadn't seen anything notably scummy-defensive from him, which other people said they had, but I could see that his behaviour was odd and he definitely needed to contribute more.

By my count, MoS is at L-1. He shows no signs of making any contribution now that he has placed himself into this "I'll act scummy to attack my wagoners" thing because he sees that as his great contribution. And his posts are definitely beginning to take on a veneer of defensiveness (inc. swearing)

You'd be frustrated too, if people refused to listen to what you said for the last 10 pages or so. Trust me, metagame all you want, you'll find that this reaction is normal for me.

In addition, you yourself have acknowledged that I am not only attacking my wagoners. They are refusing to consider all the options, but I'm watching people who aren't on the wagon as well, as evidenced by your quote of my pressure on Trojan Horse. I'm not the one who is faking contribution, it's the people who are single-mindedly attacking me and doing nothing else.

I see this situation as MoS not being overly suspicious in the sense of not having done anything I would normally characterise as scummy but, simultaneously, he is being consciously making no contribution which is of course anti-town and can be seen as scummy.

How am I consciously making no contribution? I have been responding to the majority of attacks against me while looking for scum both on and off my wagon at the same time. What more do you want from me?

Oh, something else I noticed:

Unvote, Vote: Trojan Horse

This feels way off to me. You hope he doesn't think you're "too" scummy? I see no reason to make a post like this. You've made posts like this earlier, asking me if I was going to attack you now, or something like that. You keep acting like you expect to be scummy, you expect to get heat from other players. It's almost as if you expect to be lynched. Other than these remarks, you haven't seemed that scummy, so I don't see any reason a protown player would be worried about their scumminess. You haven't done anything of note for a townie to worry about.

Trojan was not on your wagon when you voted him (though he is now). If you are so damned sure that scum are on your wagon why did you instead choose to go for the obvious newb?

I'm damned sure that 1 scum is on my wagon. That leaves two more unaccounted for. I am not going to blindly attack the people on my wagon without looking around for other scum slipping under the radar. That would be ludicrous, and it's what the people attacking me are doing. Apply your standards to them, not me.

Trojan Horse is not an obvious newb. Trojan Horse has been around a while, so if you think that's newbishness you're seeing, you'd better look again. Trojan Horse has, now that I look at it, been around Mafiascum

longer than I have

. 3 years does not a newb player make.

Crossed with both of MoS's posts.

You can make as many assumptions as you need to make. You make all the assumptions. Making all the assumptions is better than making no assumptions. Assume I'm scum and work out who my partners might be. People are assuming I'm scum right now, but they aren't even trying to find my partners. I get accused of not being helpful to the town, yet the people attacking me aren't being any more helpful. If you're going to assume I'm scum, you should also assume I'm town and work out who might be scum in the situation. You need to consider all possibilities, and you aren't doing that. No one is.

MoS, there is value in studying relationships between players, but I don't really see your point. Why should we focus on making these assumptions when we don't know your alignment; any connections we do find are meaningless without that knowledge. Once we have that knowledge we don't have to assume, we can actually reason our way through things.

And what happens when protown players are either dead or no longer protown after tonight? What then? There will be even more distractions and misinformation being spread around, in proportion to the genuinely protown people left. Better to get people's opinions on possible connections now than to have them be dead or recruited tomorrow.

As I said before, it's logic to make all assumptions and see where it leads you. You don't just sit around going "hmm, I don't know whether or not this guy is scum, so I'll just sit here and not think about anyone else besides him until he's dead".

As I just said, this doesn't help particularly. The most you can conclude is "If X is town/scum then y is probably town/scum." Afetr X's alignment is known, the first stage of hypothesisng is not needed and the reasoning process if clearer and more conducive.

After X's alignment is known, you can go back to your hypothesis and see which one was accurate. You should not wait to do this until after you have lost the opinions of several players in the game. There is no reason to wait, any urging to the contrary is merely an indication of someone that wants to rush through the lynch without considering other options.

Like I have said previously, you don't need to know my alignment to analyze this wagon. This is not a game of absolutes. You can look at all possibilities for my alignment and make conclusions based on what you find out. The wagon on me has very nearly kept everyone from focusing on anyone else in the game, and that's exactly what the scum want. You can't just wait for me to die before looking for scum. When I come up protown, what then? You just wasted an entire day looking at me and no one else. That's what White and Tyhess want us to do, and for all their talk about me not acting in the town's interests, neither are they. It's all double standards when it comes to those two.

Yes, there is value in that sort of analysis, but it cannot be practically used without alignment knowledge. That's the real problem here.

ie. Trojan's and Oman's votes do look opportunistic and I can see what you are saying about White and Tyhess being somewhat tunnel-visioned. However, because you have been scummy, I can also see how they may be justified in suspecting you and, as such, I don't think them to be wholly unreasonable.

Having one scummy person to attack is not a justification for tunnel-vision. No protown player should ever assume that they are right about one person being scum and that no other options are possible.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This game isn't about me. There are more than one scum in this game, and we can't win by looking at one person at a time. You wait until I'm dead to pressure someone else, and you've wasted a day. The cult will have recruited someone, the mafia will have killed someone, and you've lost a lot of opinions that you could have used to find scum. For the latter half of this game, the only momentous discussion has been me defending myself against attacks that don't even make sense half the time. This is not helping the game. If you want to talk about helping the game, do some of it yourself.

This is why I am seriously getting pissed. We have spent all day looking at you and all you have to do to change that is extend the same courtesy to us as we have to you: answer the questions posed to you. YOU have made yourself the number one suspect. YOU brag about this fact. YOU are the one that is forcing us to waste all of our day one resources trying to get questions answered from nearly four pages ago. YOU are not defending yourself. YOU are not answering questions. And YOU have done so intentionally.

If I am not defending myself, then why do I have 20+ responses to accusations made against me? I am answering as many of the points brought up against me as I can. Feel free to reiterate anything that I need to respond to.

If you don't understand the case against you then you are being deliberately obtuse. YOU made the case against you, remember? You have reminded us several times that you created this situation but now you want us to believe that you don't understand it? Which is it: You created this to capture scum, or scum created this to capture you. I won't hold my breath for the answer.[/quote]

I created a situation to pull in scum. That is a fact. The difference is, no one except me is willing to even consider this possibility and look for scum. Everyone wants to sit around and wait for me to die before considering any other options. That's not a protown strategy.

Where did I say I didn't understand the situation? I understand the situation. What I don't understand is how people can be so stubbornly single-minded about something that they couldn't possibly know to be true yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, pwayne, don't talk to me about getting pissed. You're not possibly as pissed as I am right now. I nearly asked for replacement due to the ridiculousness of this game, but I instead had the person who would replace me agree to replace acfan, so that we had more active players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This may indeed result in my own death, but not before we've looked at other people. At the very least, my pointing out who is probably scum will let you know who to look at the most, because when I come up protown you'll be able to trust everything I have said.

May I also point out that not a single person has asked me to claim yet, which shows that they

intend to railroad me to death without getting a claim first

. This is

NOT

protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also,

Unvote, Vote: Tyhess

He still has things to answer for. He has been deliberately ignoring some of the things I have been saying, including a few specific questions that I have asked him. For all his attacking me for not answer question, he certainly is doing a good job of not being useful himse.f

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #19

Mastermind of Sin[4](White, tyhess, Trojan Horse, Oman)
tyhess[3](ac1983fan, Flameaxe, Mastermind of Sin)
ac1983fan[1](theopor_COD)
theopor_COD[1](vollkan)
Flameaxe[1](Dr. Blackstrike)


Not Voting[2](curiouskarmadog, pwayne66)

This is true. However, you aren't even voting me at the moment, are you? My votes are White, Tyhess, Trojan, and Oman, and none of them have even said anything about a claim. White and Tyhess in particular have been so certain that I am scum, yet neither of them took the obvious step to ask for a claim. This does not bode well for them being protown.

I also need to take a look at Oman's posts. I would recommend that other people do so as well. From what I can recall, he's done a lot of jumping off and on my wagon on a whim, but I need to double-check this. If someone could corroborate this for me, that'd be appreciated.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Of course. I'm just saying, I don't really fault you for not asking for one yet. The people who were voting me don't have that excuse. Trojan Horse and Oman put me at -1 with barely a reason mentioned, and they didn't even ask for a claim. pwayne, Tyhess, and White have been on me for a long time and didn't say anything about a claim, even after I was at -1. All of that seems suspect. The fact that you haven't yet asked for a claim isn't suspicious. I could make other arguments for you being suspicious, but that's not one of them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

See, I disagree with your game theory, Trojan Horse.

First off, if I claimed townie or whatever, I wouldn't be an easy recruit for the cult. They could recruit me at night, but I'm under so much suspicion that I'm not likely to live for long even if I make it through today.

Secondly I, as a power role that might claim eventually, am not even sure if I wouldn't just claim townie. That's something I have debated back and forth. If I claim townie and live the cult might try to recruit me and fail. However if I claim townie we're left with my first point which is that I would be a bad recruit for the cult in the first place. If I claimed townie I wouldn't be a target for the mafia to kill therefore allowing me to keep my role alive and put it to good use.

Hmm, might've been 5. I was just going off what Vollkan said. L-2 is still more than enough to be asking for a claim, especially with Vollkan suspicious of me as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Whether or not there is a lot of value in claims, lynching without a claim at all is ludicrous.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting to see a change of pace from CKD. He's on the offensive all of a sudden. What brought that about?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mafia is the bane of my life...erm...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am answering as many of the points brought up against me as I can. Feel free to reiterate anything that I need to respond to.

So you have changed this position as well?

Sure I'm evading questions. It's fun, and it draws scum out of the woodwork as the react to it.

I have brought up the questions. I'm going to bed. I'll find them in the morning.

It's not useful to evade questions indefinitely. That would be retarded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok so I leave for a day, vollkan miscounts and puts lynch -1, and now everyone but me and white have unvoted MoS, with the only real explanation coming from Oman (saying his vote was about the trojan horse vote). MoS never said anything different than what he's been daying, except that if he was at lynch -1 (which he wasn't) that someone should have told him to claim (whch they shouldn't have based on the cult). To me, junping off MoS like that seems suspisios, especcially when MoS has done nothing to prove himself innocent.

FoS Trojan Horse
FoS pwayne

Wow. You just won't listen, will you? You continue to make blanket statements without actually addressing what I've said, and now you are evading answering questions and statements addressed specifically to you. From this response, it's pretty clear that you haven't actually read my posts. You just skimmed and assumed nothing was said so that you could keep pushing for me to get lynched. Vote stays, find another scapegoat, scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow. Lots to read over night.

Ok, first off i'd like to say that Oman has (this is in agreement with what has already been posted) been acting very strange. I'm not sure whether it's scummy or just idiotic yet though.

I'm pretty sure he was drunk last night. Not sure why he bothered posting.

The reason I never asked for a claim was because 1) He wasn't at -1 and 2) we had already had this nice big conversation saying rolefishing and asking for claims should be seen as scummy. In addition, the setup of this game makes claiming a very difficult situation for reasons we're all aware of.

Asking for claims when you're trying to kill someone is

NOT

scummy. Whoever said that needs to reevaluate their game theory. It's retarded to lynch people without giving them a chance to claim.

MoS, read my whole posts next time. I metagamed you from Bad Idea II where you (as scum) killed someone to make it look like the scum was some newbie thereby discrediting yourself as scum. The reason this is applicable is because we were talking about your "tactic" to lure scum and how it was newbish and you said something along the lines of you couldn't do it because you're not a newb.

I dismissed this point before to give you a chance to realize you were mischaracterizing this to fit your needs. I did not kill someone in Bad Idea II to set up the newbies as scum. I killed someone that I thought was on to me, and another player in the game came up with the theory that it must've been a newbie, since they'd killed a cop. They didn't realize that Sarcastro would've gotten me killed in the near future, had I left him alive. It was never a tactic to frame newbies. I killed him for self-preservation. The theory that only newbies would've done it was a godsend that I used to play the entire town, but it certainly was never something that I would've thought of. So no, this isn't something I do as scum.

MoS, i've yet to see you actually do anything about analysing scum on and off your wagon other than to state the obvious. If you're not scum then OBVIOUSLY the other scum are on or off your wagon. That's just stupid and stating the obvious. Your vote on Trojan looked OMGUS to me.

If I'm merely stating the obvious, you should be voting Tyhess. I've given reasons for him to be scum, and he's evading every post I've made about discrepancies and scummy actions he's done. If it's so obvious, you have no reason to be ignoring it.

How could my vote on Trojan be OMGUS? I voted Trojan before Trojan voted me. If anything, Trojan's vote was OMGUS not mine. In fact, if you look up Trojan's vote, that post states that it was not an OMGUS vote, which confirms the fact that my vote came first.

I'm quite wary of the 2 votes that were -3 and -2 on the MoS wagon because they seemed not only opportunistic but hasty and given with little reason. Trojan, are we to believe you don't think MoS is scum other than for that one post preceding your vote? Because you unvoted saying that your concern was dealt with. The point made above your vote was sketchy at best.

Unlike you, Trojan actually knows me somewhat, although a few people in this game have played with me more than Trojan (CKD and theopor). You should listen to the people that can compare my play as scum to this game. You have only found one similarity, from one game, and even that similarity was wrong, twisted to fit your needs. I have been scum 37 times, 1 misrepresented example is not a good enough reason to go after me. The other 36 games will prove you wrong.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I jumped off of MoS b/c I thought he might be at lynch -1 and I didn't want him to get lynched just when he seems willing to play ball. He still is the most suspicious player to me (even more so in light of his "I have answered all questions to the best of my abilities" statement he made)

@tyhess- are you ready to lynch MoS based on what you have seen so far?

If yes, are you ready to do so because you think he is scum, because he is distracting and annoying, or because he deserves it for his untown friendly behavior.

I ask b/c I don't necessarily think he is scum. He might be might not be. I know this: if it came down to a lylo situation, he would be the last person I would want to be in the game. I also know that failure to lynch at this point sets a dangerous precedent: that you are not accountable for what you say or for defending your positions.

Oh, cuz we're totally going to believe that anyone else besides me is employing this strategy? The people on my wagon couldn't possible get away with exploiting said precedent, because they nearly lynched me for what I did. The people off my wagon aren't acting scummy enough to exploit it, so anyone who tries to not be held accountable for what they say had better have a damn good excuse. There aren't multiple people doing what I'm doing.

Just as a point of fact, though. I have

always

defended my positions. As far as I know, I have only deigned not to comment on the positions of others. Every position I have taken, I have defended to the fullest or given a good reason that I changed my mind.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Enough is enough MoS. Your saying that your an easy target and that's why scum would be attacking you. I think its more of the fact that you found yourself in a hole, couldn't get out, and now your going to play this card of anybody who votes for you is scum.

You really love misrepresenting people, don't you? You're almost as bad as White. It's sad how you guys are calling my strategies stupid when you do shit like this. If you're town, twisting everything someone says so that it says something completely different is *not* going to find you scum. I found that out the hard way.

First off, I didn't say anyone who votes for me is scum. If I thought that, the game would be over. I would've found all the scum by now. What I said is that scum are likely to jump on easy bandwagons when someone is acting obviously scummy, therefore

one

of the people that voted me is almost certainly scum. That's called logic and deduction, but then you obviously don't know about that.

You said that you didn't want to be lynched, but the way your acting to me seems like it does matters to you but your trying to use reverse psychology so that no one would vote for you, and if they do you can yell scum.

Not going to happen

Unvote, Vote:MoS

Still keeping an

FOS:theo

This paragraph doesn't even make sense. I don't want to be lynched, but it matters to me, and I'm trying to use reverse psychology to no one would vote me, then I call them scum? How could I use reverse psychology in saying that I

don't

want to be lynched? Think about what you're saying here. This is like a stream of consciousness post. That makes less sense than BM's usual posts. Please think about what you meant to say and rephrase it.

Responding to this would be a good start.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, read my whole posts next time. I metagamed you from Bad Idea II where you (as scum) killed someone to make it look like the scum was some newbie thereby discrediting yourself as scum. The reason this is applicable is because we were talking about your "tactic" to lure scum and how it was newbish and you said something along the lines of you couldn't do it because you're not a newb.

I might have to check this out. The whole reason I would have any doubt about him actually being scum is the fact that he is an IC. The fact that he likes to play the newb card could change that.

This accusation is 100% false. I don't play the newb card. Feel free to look for yourself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Here. I did the research for you, since you failed miserably at finding it. These comments were made after the game, which means they can be 100% trusted, since I'd already won at that point.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 119#590119

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 736#589736

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 330#590330

GG Argument.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you're saying a killing can't serve more than one purpose? How do you win?

I'm saying that I didn't use that strategy, and I just proved that I didn't. It's not how I play.

So basically MoS asks one question 4-5 pages back that I thought was retorical and that makes me seem like scum. And I don't beleive that I ever said that you don't not want to get lynched (because who would)....I said that your telling people to not vote for you because you made yourself look scummy and that voting for you would make them look scummy. I don't know....maybe that's called psycology and not reverse psycology....I don't have a masters in that departmnet

This is why I asked you to explain yourself, but you completely ignored my questions.

since you failed miserably at finding it.

are you always such a asshole? If you want to make a point then make it. there are no extra points for being obnoxious.

there is a very large part of me that feels that is the only reason you have such a bandwagon. this has been the least pleasant experience I have yet had on this site and I think primarily b/c of your condescending comments and general assholary.

I think I taken a pretty solid shot at getting to the bottom of your scumminess or non-scumminess. It seems that you stonewall at every attempt. And then you seem to gleefully flaunt this fact. You question the intelligence of anybody who disagrees with you. You counter accuse rather then answer questions. You nit pick apart a persons post rather than deal with the actual subject of that post. You reduce things down to pointless quibbling.

pwayne, apologies for that comment. That was directed at White, but I had the bad timing to have it come after your post. White is the one that brought the accusation against me, saying that he had read the game. The fact that he completely missed these posts shows that he was not actually reading the game, or that he was only seeing what he wanted to see. Therefore, I felt the comment was completely deserved in this case. You had not had time to look through the case, so I apologize if it seemed I was directing that at you. I merely tried to save you time by finding it more quickly, since I know the game better than most.

[Mastermind of Sin]

btw your avatar is full of win. KS rules.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Rofl. You have some serious issues if you take stuff like that as relevant content. Kevin Smith just happens to be one of my favorite directors/writers ever.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Really? Damn. Your avatar sucks! =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Obviously. FoS: White =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

That one post preceding my vote made no difference to me, one way or the other. My vote was based on some very weak evidence (only for lack of anything stronger); it took quite a bit of time for MoS to start honing in on a potential suspect. Longer than I thought he'd take, if he were protown (based on some earlier games I found). I unvoted to give things some more thought; my concerns, weak as they were, were not "dealt with". I'll put the vote back on MoS if I can't find any better alternatives.

If your basis for voting was that you felt he was taking too long to find a suspect based on a meta-check why did you not say so initially? Instead of just saying:

This is about my gut feelings about him being scum.

Here I was, all set to get up in the morning and get to responding to things, and I find out that you folks talked all night. So much to catch up on.

First of all,

unvote

until this thing with acfan is settled. If he gets in here and starts posting, or if he's replaced, then fine. But it could always be that he did pick up the prod, and he told the mod he's lurking on purpose. (Too crazy a thought?) If more days pass and still nothing happens at all, perhaps we should lynch him and be done with it.

Second of all, as I said I would do, I did a little research into the playstyle of our resident veteran, MoS. (Sorry, MoS. That's what happens when you play so many games; you get scrutinized for everything you do.) I looked at other current games he's playing; usually, he found someone scummy to go after very early in those games. Not here. I know, he just started going after tyhess, but it took a while to get to that point.

...

I'm ashamed to say it, but our veteran has just gone up my scum list ever so slightly. No vote yet, but I'll be keeping my eye on MoS.

(OK, MoS. You may attack me back, now. )

[Mastermind of Sin]

He posted that before his initial vote on me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Funny how White is still trying to kill me when I've apparently shown you all that I can defend myself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

thanks, volkan.


And MoS. It's not about the ability to defend yourself. You actually have to do it, and in mine (and it seems white's) eyes, you have yet to do so.

Please show me where I haven't defended myself. I've been responding to accusations for over a week.

Mod: Can we get a deadline extension?

V/LA for a while, school is killing me. Check my sig for updates.

[Mastermind of Sin]

pwayne, I'm still willing to answer any questions that you have that haven't been answered. I said this before, but it probably got lost in the jumble of arguments that have been flying back and forth. Just letting you know.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The first question was the disputed Oman question about your "Flame axe and theo seem protown" statements. You say that you answered this question and I have no desire to rehash this really.

This was my original point of contention with you. It seemed to me that your counter attack on Oman was a deliberate attempt to avoid answering the question. I wasn't so concerned with the question itself, only the subsequent reactions.

I posted this(243) in an effort to highlight that your answer and actions seemed evasive:

It seems that:

1) MoS posts defending FlameAxe and Theo
2) Oman calls him out for it
3) MoS and Vollkan beat the hell out of him over semantical issues.
4) Lost in the dust is any answers from MoS on how he reconciles Flameaxes' actions against the Doc. Lost is his answers about how posting content clears Theo.
5) MoS doesn't bother reading other's viewpoints as they might influence him
6) This is AOK with Volkan.

Am I missing something?

(I know, a direct question or statement would have worked better)

In the end, your responce to the accusations that you didn't answer the question was that you did, but Oman didn't like the answer. I looked and I couldn't find an answer that satisfied me either. So..


In post 251, I posted this:

As an IC, do you think the town ought to take to accepting "x feels protown" , "I think x is geniune" and "scum wouldn't do x" as reasonable statements that should be accepted without question?

No. I could make a long-winded answer about specific cases and stuff, but let's just talk generally. The answer is no.

This was never answered either.

I think that everything following this exchange has been me believing that you are increasingly fiendish.

Also I, believed that your actions against Oman were unjust and evasive and your subsequent behavior indicated that you thought you were above what I took as common scrutiny.

I am coming to believe that this may just be the result of conflicting play styles and misunderstandings.

A little of both. First, I was trying to stir up the game with a little obstinance, but that got out of control. Mainly, though, I wanted to put some pressure on Oman, who had been pretty much clear of pressure at that point, from what I remember. Basically, I wanted to make sure that he could back up his statements with actual reasoning. He made conjectures towards me being scum with Flameaxe and Theo, so I wanted to see how deeply he felt this was a possibility. It's all fine and well if he thinks it's possible, cuz anything is possible as far as I'm concerned, other than me being scum, of course. But that's because I know my role. Anyway, that's all good, but I wanted to see how far he would commit, so that I could hold him to it later. He didn't want to commit very deeply at all, and he bucked at the pressure I put on him. That was just another note to add to the pile, so I think it was a productive endevour. It's not like I expect the scum to always say the obviously wrong things, you know. Oman questioning me on my statements was correct, but no one else called me on it, either. My statements weren't that big a deal. I wanted to see if Oman was just pointing out small things to get brownie points for being an attentive townie. It's all part of getting reactions from people.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was doing a Tyhess analysis, but I have a test to study for. It'll have to wait. I'm still wanting a deadline extension.

[Mastermind of Sin]

An extension to next Friday would be nice. I think we're getting pretty good activity now, but it's really dumb to have a lynch rushed when we're finally getting back on track with out discussion instead of just talking about me all the time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We had 5 people with 1 vote each and 1 person with 2 votes. Adding a 3rd vote isn't that dangerous, but it at least gets the game towards a lynch if deadline comes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: 6 players have now requested a deadline extension, not counting either of the new replacements, who just got into the game.

Small meta, but I think it makes tyhess, Trojan Horse, Flameaxe, and White more likely to be scum if compared against someone not on this list of 4.

[Mastermind of Sin]

My meta was a small meta, nothing more. The people who did not ask for an extension are not scum because they didn't ask for an extension. They just are very slightly more likely to be scum. The fact that they later asked for it is a null tell. I'm not going to use that against them, it would be stupid.

@White: sorry about that, I must've missed where you asked.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yea, that may not happen. We'll see what time I have. Maybe tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Trojan Horse

That's enough fence-sitting. I want to see you actually stick your neck out and commit to a position. Every time someone convinces you of something, you agree, but you always make the stipulation that you aren't going very far with it, so that you can point back later and show that you specifically said you didn't *really* think so-and-so was scum/protown, at least not very much. I smell bull.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flameaxe, how do you feel about Trojan Horse, theopor_COD and curiouskarmadog?

White, how do you feel about pwayne66, Tarhalindur, and tyhess?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Trojan Horse, the point is, there is no logical reason for you to not suspect anyone right now. I don't want you to vote for the sake of voting, which is what you just did. I want you to vote someone because you think they are scum. You can't just not think anyone is scum, because that's obviously wrong. There is plenty of material for you to go over and find someone you think is scum. I didn't tell you who to vote for, that's your own decision. I just want you to take a position on *something*. You aren't acting like you're here to play at all. As soon as someone gets on your case about anything, you try to appease them, all the while talking about how it's not something you *want* to do. You shouldn't let people tell you what to do, but you can't just sit there and do nothing, which is what you've been doing. I'm sure you'll agree with me that you are not contributing anything to the game by just sitting there and saying that you don't feel strongly about anyone. How are you or any of us supposed to find scum if people just sit around saying they don't feel anyone is scum? It looks to everyone else that you are too scared to commit to any strong positions, because there is plenty of evidence out there to form an opinion from.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Trojan Horse has a lot of confidence in Kakeng being protown. Why? It's almost as if he's hoping that his scumbuddy will redeem the lost cause that was acfan...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

Trojan is actually taking some stances now, even if I don't agree with them (I obviously don't think I am scum). Probably not scum.

I eagerly await Tar and Kakeng's rereads, because we need some fresh views on this thread. We spent way too much time talking about me, and that was partly my fault as well. Sorry.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d10

1 10-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let's lynch Tarhalindur!

Vote: Tarhalindur

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug*

That's about the point I'm at in this game so far. I could make an argument for just about anyone in the game to be scum for some convoluted reason or another. I'd like to lynch White or Tyhess out of sheer annoyance, but I can't tell whether stupidity or anti-town alignment is driving their actions this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, but I could make a case for just about anyone. You makes cases for

no one

. There is a big different.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^This is my problem with Troj's play this entire game, pretty much.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Where's Tyhess?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Seems like my dice roll put me in the right place

[Mastermind of Sin]

And it doesn't mean anything to you that:

a) I used a different strategy in this game (at least I can't remember any long D1's where I acted scummy to draw out scum)
b) I have spent the majority of this game defending myself, giving me little room to attack
c) This game has gone in circles and come out with no one that can really be argued well as scum

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't really mind a or c but b? I mean come on. There's no reason you can't pick apart someone. What about when me and Flame were going at it for those few pages? You had plenty of time. Saying you've been so busy defending yourself that you couldn't hunt scum is a lie. Stop lying MoS.

I wasn't paying much attention to the game back then. I was lurking in about half my games back then. I was talking about since I've actually become active again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

hahaha.....well I was trying to point out the fact to MoS of how stupid it was to try to set his little trap and call anyone who "felt for it" scum. I was saying that he would say that if anyone called him out for getting a chance to attack someone and not doing so that they were defeinelty scum and trying to get an easy lynch.

Your attempt at humor/sarcasm is full of fail. I didn't call everyone scum, and I didn't call anyone "definitely" scum. If anything, you're the one who is saying I am definitely scum, rather than the other way around. I merely said that I was very certain that there was *a* scum among those who attacked me. That doesn't make them all scum, and I'm not at all sure which one it is. Stop putting words in my mouth, please. If you keep making things up about me I might have to think you're scum trying to make me look bad, eh? Town don't make shit up, you shouldn't either.

[Mastermind of Sin]

hahaha.....well I was trying to point out the fact to MoS of how stupid it was to try to set his little trap and call anyone who "felt for it" scum. I was saying that he would say that if anyone called him out for getting a chance to attack someone and not doing so that they were defeinelty scum and trying to get an easy lynch.

Your attempt at humor/sarcasm is full of fail. I didn't call everyone scum, and I didn't call anyone "definitely" scum. If anything, you're the one who is saying I am definitely scum, rather than the other way around. I merely said that I was very certain that there was *a* scum among those who attacked me. That doesn't make them all scum, and I'm not at all sure which one it is. Stop putting words in my mouth, please. If you keep making things up about me I might have to think you're scum trying to make me look bad, eh? Town don't make shit up, you shouldn't either.

You said that you were "very certain" there was someone scum on your "bandwagon", and that that was the point of you acting scummish-to try to trap scum. And yeah, in a 12 player game with 2 scum and a cultish, chances are that 1 out of the 5 are not protown. The "trap" didn't help out at all. I was merely suggesting that you might be trying the tactic again, and yet again showing you have faulty (at times) strategy.

No. Just, no. If I had a daykill I would kill you right now just for sheer stupidity, and I don't give a fuck if saying this makes me look "scummy". 4 < 5, therefore, I have already improved your chances of finding scum by narrowing it down to my wagon. By focusing on those four people (not ignoring the rest of the people, mind), you can determine which one of them is most likely to be scum and lynch them. This is NOT a faulty strategy, and I'm starting to think that you might have an alterior motive for trying to debunk my original plan.

Unvote, Vote: tyhess

This is as close to a daykill as I can get.

P.S. - I didn't do anything scummy this time around, so it's not possible for me to have been repeating my tactic from before. Secondly, now that I've revealed my tactic, it's not going to work again. I'm not stupid, but maybe you are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Alterior motive? Maybe thinking that your scum? And what does 4<5 mean anyways?? And what about the people not voting for you? You said we shouldn't ignore them but if we focus on just them from now until the deadlien that's what we'd be doing. Should we give them a free pass because they didn't fall for the "trap"?


And your tactic never worked, so it can't work agian.......

Alterior motive being that you're probably scum, but of course you'd feign ignorance as to what I meant. You said we have a 1/5 chance of finding scum randomly. I am giving you a better than 1/4 chance, which is clearly greated than 1/5, since 4 is less people to look through than 5. We shouldn't give them a free pass. If they do something scummy, vote 'em. However, I think that unless the people outside of those 4 do something incredibly scummy, we should be lynching from within the group today.

Yea, yea, keep spouting your retarded rhetoric. You're just pissed that you fell for it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't even know why I try anymore. I feel like I'm one of the last of the Old Guard holding down the fort while mafiascum is swarmed over by newbs who don't have a clue what they are doing. It makes me sad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nevermind, you have answered this before. To be honest though, in your vast experience and expertise does the whole rubbing people noses in shit tactic usually deliver the desired result?

If you want to sell your case then sell it. If nobody's buying it might just be that you are selling a shitty product. This seems to make more sense than assuming that everybody in the game being an idiot but you...

Yes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Man. You just had to give me another thing to think about, CKD. Tar definitely hasn't been a very helpful replacement yet. (Hmm. Perhaps Kakeng deserves a look for the same reason.) Do we want to do a lurker-lynch? I'm tempted.

Kakeng said he'd post today. I'm not hopeful that will actually happen, but I'll give him a chance.

Oh, and MoS: if you're so annoyed at having to play with 11 newbs like us, we could always put you out of your misery. (No smiley attached to this comment. I'm seriously considering voting for him... though for reasons of scumminess, of course. )

*fixed*

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug* The way you worded it, I read it with a smiley.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You read 35 pages in an hour?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kakeng, it's been like 50+ hours since you said you were doing an analysis on each player separately. Please post whatever you have so far so we can see what you think sooner. Don't wait to post it all at once.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Tar, don't keep playing out of peer pressure. If you're having a hard time getting into the game, tell the mod now so he can get a replacement before we hit deadline. Don't force yourself, and certainly don't keep playing only to pull antics like you have in the last page.

Unvote, Vote: Kakeng

His post on this page proves that he is watching the thread and still hasn't given us a significant contribution, looks like he was hoping to lurk past the deadline. That's not going to fly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm pretty sure pwayne is cult now. If we lynch Tar now, he HASN'T BEEN RECRUITED. This means that the cult can safely try to recruit someone else tonight, and we'll have no clue who it is. By lynching someone other than Tar, the cult *might* recruit him, but they know we know about him. If they don't recruit Tar, we've saved ourself a townie and made the cult attempt someone else. pwayne's twisted logic is implying that if we lynch Tar today, the cult won't have a new recruit tomorrow, since they can't recruit Tar. That's just idiotic. I think our cult leader just slipped up.

Unvote, Vote: pwayne

[Mastermind of Sin]

If we lynch him today, someone else might be scum tomorrow...why are you pushing to lower the number of townies?

I have answered this and you, again are deliberately misrepresenting my case. So be it.

You mentioned that we are on a deadline, make your case. I've made mine and have stated why it yields the best result. I've done something. Your turn.

As far as MoS goes, I can dig CKD vote on me, he is frustrated and I have been mildly antagonistic. MoS's vote is starting to strike me as opportunistic.

How am I opportunistic? I read your arguments and presented my own case for you to be scum. It's not like I'm tagging along behind anyone. There isn't an "anti-pwayne" sentiment where I would be like "oooh, this is a chance to get him lynched!". Everything I said was my own opinion and came from reading your posts. I didn't even know CKD had voted you until you just said it in this post I quoted.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's just idiotic. I think our cult leader just slipped up.

Because our cult leader would spend the first several pages urging everybody to not claim town and then try to kill a claimed townie so that I can gamble by trying to recruit somebody else? Why not let everybody kill kakeng and recruit Tar tonight when I have better odds.

Telling people not to claim town is something anyone can think of. It's not like you came up with some amazing original idea that would revolutionize how the town plays the game. The idea you were pushing was not *that* important, and it's a good way for scum to look like they are trying to help the town without hurting themselves overly.

Again, saying that Tar is a likely recruit is *not* a special idea. There was probably a 99% chance that someone, anyone, everyone, would realize that Tar was an obvious cult choice tomorrow. All you did today was give the cult a chance to completely WIFOM the town by bringing up this theory. That is not a protown action, you've only helped the scum. Lynching a protown player just to get rid of a WIFOM situation that's entirely

your

fault is not a good plan.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^^ WIFOM

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I can see why someone would think so. It's not WIFOM. If something is scummy then it benefits scum. I fail to see how MoS's theory benefits scum. So it can't be scummy.

It benefits scum because WE KILL A PROTOWN PLAYER TODAY FOR NO ACTUAL GAIN AGAINST THE SCUM. You are asserting that we gain something over the scum by killing Tar, and that's just not true.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Uhh, Oman? You do realize that pwayne is the one advocating lynching a claimed Vanilla today, which is why I'm trying to get him to DIAF, aka lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It benefits scum because WE KILL A PROTOWN PLAYER TODAY FOR NO ACTUAL GAIN AGAINST THE SCUM. You are asserting that we gain something over the scum by killing Tar, and that's just not true.

No, you are saying I am cult.

What are you trying to say here? This sentence has nothing to do with what you quoted, and it looks more like you are trying to change the subject than anything else, because you aren't responding to anything in the above quote.

Removing a vanilla townie does not help the cult. You do bring up an interesting point about Tar being a bad cult member since everybody will suspect him (I wonder if people really will though...nobody seems that concerned now, so why later) , but for that matter, the cult can still target somebody else without having to kill Tar (in fact keeping him alive would create more angst for the town). But now it seems that we will have a WIFOM situation tomorrow either way...

Yes they CAN recruit someone other than Tar. However, this is the situation I am advocating:

- Leave Tar alive, lynch someone who is more likely to be scum right now (you or Kakeng), cult attempts to recruit somebody

This is what you are advocating:

- Lynch Tar as a protown player so that the cult can't recruit him, cult attempts to recruit somebody

In both situations the cult attempts to recruit somebody. However, in your scenario we lynch someone who is more likely to be town than anything else. In my scenario, I give us a chance to kill scum today. Your scenario wastes a lynch and kills off a protown players, both of which are strictly helpful to the scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

theopor, in pwayne's suggested scenario, Tar is protown, since the whole reason he wants to lynch him is to prevent the cult from killing him. I'm not saying I never want to lynch him, but I want to lynch him on evidence that he is scum. pwayne is saying "here, I have evidence that Tar is protown, so we should kill him!"

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, that leaves us here: The day of our self imposed deadline and its between me or Kakeng.

unvote

I think we need some discussion. I also advocate pushing our deadline back to thursday or Friday (our real deadline).

What I see against Kakeng is that he is lurking. Is this a good enough reason to lynch? What do we learn from his death?

It's not just lurking. It's the fact that he HAS been posting occasionally and still hasn't provided us with his breakdown of the players in the game, even though he said he would quite some time ago. His analysis so far has been minimal and seems like he was just posting it to get people off his back (he came into the game under some suspicion from acfan's lurking).

I saw your questions, but I gotta go to class.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Kakeng

Let's lynch the scumz now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To be fair, long days in and of themselves are not a bad thing. It's long days where people spend most of their time rehashing the same few things (ie me, waiting for lurkers/replacements, etc). I am in a mini game right now that had a 45 page D1, and I found two scum for the town in that Day. I feel the long day was beneficial to finding scum, but that's because we discussed a lot of different topics and the game never really stalled around something like it did here. This game feels like no one was really ready to commit to a lynch, and when they were, it felt like they knew it would be a bad idea to go through with it, so the game just sorta stalled while everyone waited for someone else to do something.

Disclaimer: By they I do not mean *everyone*, but I'm just generalizing cuz I can.

[Mastermind of Sin]

5 on kakeng. I'd like a claim, then we can finish him off with a few more votes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

By "you", I think he meant Tar, not you, since you were voting way before and haven't changed it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

By "you", I think he meant Tar, not you, since you were voting way before and haven't changed it.

Yes. Bit of a mux-ip there.

QFT

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #42

Flameaxe[4](Kakeng, pwayne66, White, vollkan)
tyhess[2](Oman, Mastermind of Sin)
Kakeng[1](Trojan Horse)
pwayne66[1](curiouskarmadog)
Trojan Horse[1](tyhess)
White[1](Flameaxe)


Not Voting[2](Tarhalindur, theopor_COD)

---

At deadline, if there is no majority of voting players, no one will be lynched. I've explained this many times, but want to be perfectly clear: 6-5 with 1 not voting is a lynch, but 6-5-1 is not a lynch.

Also, no votes after 11:59 PM Friday EST will count, whether I check the thread right then or not. Feel free to continue discussion in twilight, but a "lynch" after then will not count.

You have a little over 48 hours from the time of this post until deadline.

Unvote, Vote: Tyhess

It makes no sense to lynch without asking for a claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok I think tyhess is town, and he just clarified a lot of thoughts for me.

Unvote, Vote: Kakeng

I'm sure that's the right play for today. I doubt he is a roleblocker. He replaced into the game, promised a lot of contribution, and did nothing. Then, when wagoned almost to a lynch, he came back, posted a roleblocker claim (unlikely to draw a counterclaim, but powerful enough that we might not lynch him). And he still doesn't give us an update on the analysis he promised. This is not protown at all. It looks like he was planning to lurk through to Day 2, got caught, and claimed a power role to save his ass, because as far as the mafia is concerned, every day they can live without dying is a plus, even if it's just a quick fix. A roleblocker claim can be ridden several days without lynch, as long as he gets lucky with his claimed targets. For example, he could claim to have targetted his scumbuddy, or he could claim against the dead person, or he could claim against someone the mafia feels is unlikely to have a power role (like Tar). This buys him several days of life, while we sit around lynching other people.

I'm pretty sure his play so far has been a scum ploy. It's clear he's not actually trying to help the town. Just look at his posts in isolation and you'll see what I mean.

Let's do this guys. We can lynch him before time is up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm sure that's the right play for today. I doubt he is a roleblocker. He replaced into the game, promised a lot of contribution, and did nothing. Then, when wagoned almost to a lynch, he came back, posted a roleblocker claim (unlikely to draw a counterclaim, but powerful enough that we might not lynch him). And he still doesn't give us an update on the analysis he promised. This is not protown at all. It looks like he was planning to lurk through to Day 2, got caught, and claimed a power role to save his ass, because as far as the mafia is concerned, every day they can live without dying is a plus, even if it's just a quick fix. A roleblocker claim can be ridden several days without lynch, as long as he gets lucky with his claimed targets. For example, he could claim to have targetted his scumbuddy, or he could claim against the dead person, or he could claim against someone the mafia feels is unlikely to have a power role (like Tar). This buys him several days of life, while we sit around lynching other people.

I'm pretty sure his play so far has been a scum ploy. It's clear he's not actually trying to help the town. Just look at his posts in isolation and you'll see what I mean.

Let's do this guys. We can lynch him before time is up.

QFT The only thing I don't like is the last line.

I only said it because there are some people (scumbuddies, usually) who refuse to vote because they don't think we can reach a lynch before the deadline.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I see where you are coming from...but something about lynching a claimed power role just instinctively rubs me the wrong way.

I'll vote to avoid a No Lynch, but I prefer flameaxe right now.

I'll have to write that down.

"Next time I am scum in a game with vollkan, claim a power role. He won't lynch me."

I'm sure you see what I'm getting at here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm very sceptical of power-role claims under pressure dunno why but I am, MoS makes a decent argument, plus Kakeng based on his and AC1983's play is the biggest suspect for scum for me. I could easily move back onto Kakeng but Trojan yet again is concerning me this page alone, heck I wonder why he got let off the mat so easily before. Flameaxe's lurking is irritating aswell.

Decision will be made prior to the deadline, where's Whitey got too aswell normally so vocal yet he's dissapeared.

I'm concerned about them, too, but Kakeng is a pretty obvious scum in front of us. Trojan is just too borderline for me to want a lynch on him yet. Flameaxe and Trojan will definitely need to be pressured tomorrow, but I don't think wagoning either of them is going to be productive. We need to show that there CAN be a lynch on Kakeng in the next 24 hours, and we need your vote to do it.



^.^ <3 Campaign speeches

[Mastermind of Sin]

Uhhhhh....tyhess???

^.^ <3 Campaign speeches

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol

I DO do the whole politician thing from time to time. People on MS have asked me if I am a politician before. I'm not, but yea I do seem to give off that impression occasionally. *shrug*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flameaxe said he is in the middle of midterms. But he knows the deadline is coming up, too.

[Mastermind of Sin]

tyhess why are you so eager to push "evidence" against me?

I really hope the cop (if we have one) did investigate me. That would be nice, then I don't have to worry about what people think of me and get down to scumhunting. Didn't expect ckd to be the cult leader, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thank you Guardian.

Cult is not a problem for now, for a long time. Lets get rid of NKing scum, I'd be inclined to think

that any sane cultist would do their best to help us get rid of scum because they have no chance against them

.

I agree with this. At this point, the two scumgroups are really afraid of each other. If the town can lynch the scum, the cult has a chance, but if we don't find the cult, the scum has to nightkill them to have a chance. We should focus on mafia now anyway.

If I had to place everyone to an alignment right now:

Mastermind of Sin - town
Oman - scum
vollkan - town/cult
Tarhalindur (r. Dr. Blackstrike) - town/cultish
pwayne66 - scum
tyhess - newb town
Trojan Horse - scum
Flameaxe - scum
theopor_COD - town

That's just what jumps out to me right now. I haven't reread the thread or anything, this is just what I remember. I think vollkan would be the best cult recruit. Either that or he's scum and the cult failed on him. Either way, I think that as the cult leader I would definitely have recruited him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mastermind of Sin - Scum. He jumped back on my radar. Yesterday, immediately after a bandwagon against Flameaxe started, he changed his stance to go after a very popular choice, Kakeng ( a diversion?).

Pretty sure I didn't "change" my mind. I never thought Kakeng was protown. I gave him a chance to contribute, and he didn't, so I got him lynched. He didn't even defend himself after he was pressured. I thought he was hoping to lurk past the pressure. When he finally spoke up, he only gave a claim and nothing else worth mentioning. That had all the trademarks of scum. I fail to see what I've done wrong here other than being mistaken in my assessment. But hindsight is 20/20.

This occurred after he passionately defended the call to get a role claim (so much so he voted for tyhess for disagreeing with him). So what's the point of getting a role claim if your going to kill a power role anyway?

Now you're misrepresenting me. Why must you twist what I say? I never said we would kill every power role that claims. That would be dumb. I said that the particular power role that he claimed,

in addition to his actions

, indicated that his claim was just a scum trying to survive an extra day.

He then goes on to defend Flameaxe's absence (he also defended Flameaxe in his first few posts. Oman called him out on it. This is when MoS famously decided to stop answering questions in order to flush out scum.) Today he lists flameaxe as scummy with no explanation (distancing?).

Wow. Just because I'm actually friends with Flameaxe and I *know* that he's had midterms for a while does not mean I am defending him. I suspect him, too, but I'm not going to make unreasonable accusations against him such as calling him scum for not posting when he was swamped with midterms. That's ridiculous.

I didn't give an explanation for anyone. I even

TOLD

you that I was just listing this off the top of my head without a reread or anything, and you

still

attack me for not providing reasoning? That's asinine, pwayne. You're better than that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

He hasn't been very helpful when he was posting.

There. Happy?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Troj, why would scum *not* want a mislynch D1? Your reasoning seems odd.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No Tyhess. Not at all.

QFT

tbh, though, I did debate about phrasing it that way for a while, cuz I figured someone would get a wedgie and have problems with it. Then I decided I just didn't care enough.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Tarhalindur

Person C votes are clearly win in this case

[Mastermind of Sin]

I can buy that.

Unvote, Vote: Oman

I think we have some long overdue pressure needed here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

tyhess, you're reaching. Just because Tarhalindur made a vote that could be argued as OMGUS does not draw any parallels to what I did. I presented a case that said there was *probably* a scum on my wagon,

one out of four

, not

all

of them. To say that this equates to "everyone that votes me is scum" is not only a gross misrepresentation, but it's complete bullshit to compare it to Tar's actions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I thought he meant it was a scumtell that Tar was claiming to be doing that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*bump*

I'll be gone this weekend for an Ultimate Tourney, so don't expect any posts.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm starting to wonder at a Flameaxe-Trojan scumpair. Just look at Trojan's posts selectively and search for "flame". Go down the list: the few times he mentions Flameaxe, I'm sure you'll see a pattern.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: *starting to wonder at a Flameaxe-Trojan scumpair, too.

Don't want to give the impression that I'm stealing Theo's theory as my own. His Flame post definitely tipped me off to look at that. I'm a big fan of the avoidance theory for scumpairs. See: Mini 458.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oman needs to die.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks for giving me credit on that one, Oman.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oman needs to die.

Why??? You're kind of starting to piss me off-you keep acting like your so much better than all of us at this game. I think that we should look into theo as well, but maybe that really has happened in a game before and that's why he's saying that. And I also hate posts that give us no information (ie:Oman needs to die)

Uh!

Unvote Vote Trojan Horse

Not only were the two arguments very persuasive, but also this line:

Finally; at some point, we should pitch in and do one of these breakdowns for theo. Not that I think he's scum; I just think turnabout is fair play.

That is a useless line and everytime I've seen it its scum trying to deflect.

Uh huh...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, for some reason I thought Oman posted both of those. My bad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Told you I was town...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good thing I didn't think Theo was that scummy in my past life (that I can remember), or I'd really have to recalibrate my scumdar for this game.

Here is what I remember (not including this day):

Oman - VERY scummy. I can't believe he's not dead yet (almost).
vollkan - probably not scum. However, I can't believe the scum haven't killed him yet, when I think about it.
Tarhalindur (r. Dr. Blackstrike) - in the middle, too much WIFOM surrounding him.
pwayne66 - probably oman's scumpartner
Trojan Horse - in the middle, leaning scum if I'm wrong about my top two suspects.

So I'm not *really* sure about anyone right now.

That being said, the reason Oman shouldn't be dead yet is that with 6 people alive, and 2 mafia left, our best option is clearly to no lynch. If we lynch today, we have to lynch correctly. If we no lynch, the mafia eliminates a suspect for us, and we have a better chance of lynching scum the next day. This also gives our power roles (if we have any left) a chance to act once more without pressure of losing the game right away. With the cult leader eliminated, time is on our side. We need to no lynch today to improve our chances of beating the mafia.

Vote: No Lynch

[Mastermind of Sin]

Out of curiousity, why do all those stats have a "NK tar" option as separate from everything else?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ordinarily, this would be true, but as multiple people pointed out to me earlier the extra NK (which almost certainly implies vig) means that we are, in fact, not at LyLo per se, and fourthermore I suspect that your plan actually decreases our chance at winning (need to crunch the numbers to be sure, but initial analysis suggests that numbers - as in "living pro-town players" - are better for us than time at the moment).

The vig kill is a horrible crutch to depend on for winning the game. If we lynch today, the vig only had a 50% chance of hitting scum tonight. I don't want the vig to kill anymore. I would rather depend on lynches and the input of all the players living to decide our lynches than depend on one player's opinion (even mine) to win the game for us.

I want to see more of your comments on the game, MoS. I had no read on your predecessor (which effectively translates to "you are moderately scummy" in this situation), and this post (pushing a plan that may well be anti-town, which is very unusual coming from you) suggests that your alignment this time may well be the opposite of your alignment when you died.

I will always push no lynch in a situation where mislynching gives the mafia an advantage of numbers the next day and no lynching gives us another lynch with less people alive.

I'll comment on the game when I have time. I haven't read anything from this day yet, so it seems odd that you would imply that I'm scummy for making the no lynch suggestion when the numbers are in our favor.

FoS: Tar

You definitely just rose on my suspicion list.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think having a lynch and a vig kill as chances for hitting a scum is preferable to having just a lynch. And "just a lynch" is what we'll have if we no lynch today (assuming the vig does not kill tonight).

You're wrong. Even if we no lynch today, and no kill tonight, we don't have "just a lynch". We have a BETTER chance of hitting scum, and if we're wrong, the vig has a BETTER chance of killing correctly that night. I'm willing to trade the offchance that our vig dies for a better chance of winning the game.

We need to lynch someone today, and regardless of whether we lynch scum or not, the vig needs to kill tonight. Then we'll have 3 left the next day, with (hopefully) at most one scum left. Sounds like "the numbers are in our favor" in that situation, and they won't be if we no lynch.

You're only assuming best case scenarios. Saying that "hopefully" there will be 1 scum left is not "the numbers are in our favor". You're obfuscating the fact that your plan depends on the vig's ability to find scum. The vig doesn't have the greatest track record, so I'm not willing to bet it all on him/her.

Take some time to think about it, MoS. This is an unusual situation. No lynch is a bad idea.

I've thought about it a lot. No lynch is a great idea, and I'm having a hard time understanding why you are so reliant on power roles at this juncture of the game.

Also, before we lynch someone, we can always publicly discuss who the vig should kill the following night. That way the vig kill isn't dependent on "one person's opinion" (unless the vig decides to go against the crowd).

We do that anyway by indicating who we are suspicious of. However, it still comes down to the choice of one person as to who dies. I'm not willing to take that chance, and neither should you.

The vig kill is a horrible crutch to depend on for winning the game. If we lynch today, the vig only had a 50% chance of hitting scum tonight. I don't want the vig to kill anymore. I would rather depend on lynches and the input of all the players living to decide our lynches than depend on one player's opinion (even mine) to win the game for us.

Hmm. You are talking about a mislynch I assume, since the probability is only 50% where there are two scum. In the event of a mislynch, if the vig does not NK we have 2 scum and 2 non-scum, meaning that we have no hope of lynching mafia. If the vig succeeds, our situation is still only 2:1 or 1:1:1, both of which are worse for us than having no lynch and no vig.

Exactly. Which is why no lynch and no vig is a BETTER plan.

We need to lynch someone today, and regardless of whether we lynch scum or not, the vig needs to kill tonight. Then we'll have 3 left the next day, with (hopefully) at most one scum left. Sounds like "the numbers are in our favor" in that situation, and they won't be if we no lynch.

As I have said,
Mislynch = 3:2 (that's non-mafia : mafia, obviously there can be a cultist.)
MafNK = 2:2
VigNK = 2:1 (good) or 1:2 (loss)

If we no lynch and no vig, we end up at 3:2. I severely doubt that 2:1 is better than 3:2 at all, yet alone when it carries the risk of a 1:2 loss.

Also, before we lynch someone, we can always publicly discuss who the vig should kill the following night. That way the vig kill isn't dependent on "one person's opinion" (unless the vig decides to go against the crowd).

We faced a similar situation in another game I was in. I was adamantly against any sort of directing, but the compromise we reached was that each player listed four preferential candidates. On the numbers here, though, vigging seems insensible.

Agreed with the above.

Interrocroc strikes again!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #58

Oman[1](pwayne66)
Trojan Horse[1](Oman)

No Lynch[1](MoS)


Not Voting[3](vollkan, Tarhalindur, Trojan Horse)

I severely doubt that 2:1 is better than 3:2 at all,

Claims would have a lot to do with it. Unless we lose the vig earlier.

Another thing is, MoS has been very anti-vig. Now with the quality of some of the players here (unfortunatly I include MoS in that), the vig is scums biggest threat. I mean, MoSvig would find scum well. Vollkvig is synomous with scumdeath to me (:(). You look at that kind of thing and think "what would scum want the vig to do?" the answer is a nokill, as they can win without a miskill easily enough.

I don't trust even myself to hit scum. As you'll see, I don't have a great track record right now. Now that you say it, though, I'm even more convinced that you're scum, since you trust me as vig to kill correctly. The person I would kill as vig is you. Luckily for you, no lynch is a better plan than gambling that I am correct today.

Also, mafia would want to lynch today, because that gives them the best chance of winning. There is no way to prevent the vig from killing tonight if we mislynch, because it's the obvious thing. However, by lynching today, the scum have a chance of smoking the vig out in the open with a bandwagon, which means they can kill the vig and hope that the vig misses his 50% chance of hitting scum. Even if the vig hits scum, 2:1 with a dead vig is decent odds for the mafia. Right now our odds are 4:2, and I'd prefer to have chances at scum at 3:2 and 2:1 than just hope that we'll reach 2:1 through a lucky vig kill.

Also, if I had to put money down on the table right now, I would say Oman and Tarhalindur are our scum. Pwayne also looks likely. Just sayin'.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why can't the vig save us if we mislynch Day 4? Why are you so sure Tar is the cultist? Why are you saying there is a better chance of vig dying than cultist? They're both only 1 person, the odds are the same. How do you know Tar is NOT the vig? Why can't the vig kill the next night instead of tonight, if we no lynch today?

I'd really like answers to these questions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Gladly.

1.

Why can't the vig save us if we mislynch Day 4?

If we mislynch day 4 (after a no lynch today and a no kill tonight), we will have 2 scum, 1 vig, and 1 other player left. We must then hope that the vig hits scum (likely) and the scum misses the vig (not likely). And that only gets us a draw. We'll have no remaining chance of winning in this scenario.

If we mislynch today, it's the exact same scenario. Literally. As you said, "We must then hope that the vig hits scum (likely) and the scum misses the vig (not likely)." And that's not even strictly true. Under your suggested scenario, the vig has 4 people to choose from, 2 of which are scum. That's a 50% chance. Under my scenario, *IF* we mislynch, the vig has a 66% chance of hitting scum that night. Not to mention the fact that in my scenario, we are far less likely to mislynch.

2.

Why are you so sure Tar is the cultist?

I'm not totally sure. It's possible that there is no cultist; perhaps CKD tried to recruit, and failed. But if there is a cultist, Tar is the likeliest, since he revealed himself to be a vanilla townie day 1.

To be honest, on the most general level, I find Tar the least likely person to have been culted the first night. There was too much WIFOM surrounding his claim, I don't think CKD would be willing to take that chance. He's a decently cautious player when it comes to night choices, from what I can tell. Tar is too big of a risk. Recruiting him is a big risk, big payoff scenario. It takes balls of steel to go for it, though. I think he would go for a safer recruitment instead, letting the focus go on Tar as a possible recruit, so that his recruit would be obfuscated in the background.

3.

Why are you saying there is a better chance of vig dying than cultist? They're both only 1 person, the odds are the same.

Because the scum are more interested in killing the vig than the cultie. If they figure out who the vig is, the vig is dead meat. If they figure out who the cultie is, they'll let him live, and shoot someone likelier to be the vig.

That's why we should no lynch before the mafia have the chance to find out who the vig is. The more information we give them, the better chance they have. I don't think it's very obvious right now who it is, though.

4.

How do you know Tar is NOT the vig?

Do you think he would've pulled those antics day 1 if he was the vig? That's even less likely than him doing it as scum.

Yes, I think he would. As both scum OR vig.

5.

Why can't the vig kill the next night instead of tonight, if we no lynch today?

I never said the vig should kill tonight if we no lynch today. He definitely shouldn't. And he definitely should kill night 4, if things go no lynch- no vig- mislynch up to that point. But that can only get us a draw, and we'll probably lose, as I said for #1.

Erm, that's not what I meant. You said, "Add to that the fact that the vig can save us if we mislynch now (while he can't if we no lynch now and THEN mislynch day 4)..." So I was asking what's keeping us from saving the vig kill until tomorrow night so that we can no lynch today and drastically improve our odds for both lynching AND vigging scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know, that's a rather big change of tune from the way you were talking earlier today when you were responding to my mass claim suggestion...

Tar suggested mass claim today? That only makes me MORE sure that he's scum. That's a ridiculously scum-favored idea.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So I was asking what's keeping us from saving the vig kill until tomorrow night so that we can no lynch today and drastically improve our odds for both lynching AND vigging scum?

If we mislynch today, a successful vig kill tonight allows us to still have a chance to win. (We can win a 1:1:1 situation if our protown player is the vig.) After no-lynch/no-vig/mislynch, all a vig kill can do is give us a chance to draw. That's the difference.

*sigh again*

I'll do some more pondering about this.

I would take a chance at a draw for a HIGHER chance of winning. We have a higher probability of winning with my plan. Just because the best we get if we completely fail is a draw, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. My plan has a much higher chance of success than yours. In your scenario, a mislynch is more likely, and therefore more relevant. It's the opposite in mine.

As for your last comment, MoS: yes, Tar was the first to suggest a mass claim today. But Oman later said he'd be okay with that, as did your predecessor, theo. For any of the three, it could have just been carelessness.

*shrug* I know my alignment, but I also think Tar and Oman to be scum

already

not everyone who agrees with a mass claim is scum, but it definitely does NOT help their case.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug* I know my alignment, but I also think Tar and Oman to be scum already. Not everyone who agrees with a mass claim is scum, but it definitely does NOT help their case.

fixed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

At least we both agree Tar is your scumbuddy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So let's keep voting no lynch, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Says Oman the scum. Because it's really beneficial to go to night with 6 alive, have the vig kill someone (probably protown, since it's 3:2 in favor of town dying), and have the scum kill someone else to win the game or reduce us to the possibility of a draw AT BEST.

If this offhand support of a completely disastrous plan (offhand because he knew he couldn't support it directly) didn't convince you guys that Oman is scum, I don't know what will.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It *IS* our choice. If the vig doesn't act correctly, we can lose the game. You know this as well as anyone. By dropping an offhand comment like that, you secure the possibility that maybe the vig trusts you over me for some completely ridiculous reason, thereby listening to you and losing the game for us by killing tonight after we no lynch. It's a risky gambit, but you've been fairly obvious about being scum for some time now. You're not really trying to hide it anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow. That has got to be the luckiest kill I have

ever

seen. I do not believe the scum thought he was vig, but wtf were they thinking. Leaving Oman alive with their ticket to freedom, I would've been all over his ass today...that's just scary. Even in a counterclaim situation I would've voted Oman. So the town just got another chance at winning the game through that Oman kill. Thanks scum. You really did yourself in this time. [/gratuitous scumtell paragraph]

Let's not even worry about the numbers if we mislynch. We all know we'd lose that one. Interesting pressure on vollkan from Trojan. The question is how to interpret it. Is Trojan distancing from scumbuddy vollkan so they don't both go down? Is Troj-scum pressuring vollkan to try and build some early day focus on a townie? Is Trojan right about vollkan scum, who ended the day as soon as we had enough other votes? Is pwayne-scum only discussing numbers at this point because he doesn't have anything to actually contribute until he takes a lead from someone else, letting him not have to do anything original? Questions, Questions.

Does anyone have any answers? =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, Yes, Yes, aaaaaannndddd yes! However, not for all the reasons you might think. =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nah. If you don't want the scum to make the choices, this is how it goes down.

Right down the list:

vollkan
pwayne66
Trojan Horse
MoS (r. theopor_COD)

Original Roll String: 1d4

1 4-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Original Roll String: 1d3

1 3-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[Mastermind of Sin]

Claim Order:

pwayne66
vollkan
Trojan Horse
MoS

Now that that's decided, let's do this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

'nilla.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, Almost, Yes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So we don't have any protown power roles left. Figures. If we're finally going to take down these scum, we'll have to rely on brains and votes only.

Okay. I know that I have been bemoaning my broken scumdar for most of the game. (Ok, for ALL of the game.) But now, I think I'm finally starting to see the light. I'm working on a post which will put all of my arguments together; I'll post it as soon as I'm done. (Won't take much longer.) But in the meantime, I have a question for MoS:

Yes, Yes, Yes, aaaaaannndddd yes! However, not for all the reasons you might think. =P

That was in response to pwayne's question about whether we should massclaim. MoS, care to clarify what those reasons were? Was there someone you suspected, and you were waiting to find out what his claim was? Or was it some other reason?

Wow, I am fucking psychic. I'm like a freaking genius here. I read this post last night, and I was like "wow, this post screams scum to me. Troj sets up to make a "case" while excusing himself from having a bad scumdar all game, looks like a decent ploy to get people to believe he's finally right. And he's fishing for my opinion so that he can see who I suspect before he makes his case. So he's probably going to attack me, but I shouldn't say anything about how scummy this looks because then he'll just OMGUS me, and that would be bad." And look, it fucking happens, right as I called it. Jeez, I am better than Miss Cleo!

Mod edit:

Still 0 votes

Alright. It's time to lay all my cards on the table, and make my big case as to who I think is scum. Please excuse the length of this post; it's a lot of words, but I have a lot to say.

When day 4 started, I was confused as to why Oman was selected as the mafia's nightkill target. Why kill off the player who was the most suspected at that point? Why not get rid of someone not so suspicious? Most likely, they chose Oman since they thought he was most likely to be the vig. (If they knew he was the vig, he'd be the obvious kill choice, despite how scummy he looked to everyone else.) But how could they believe that Oman was the vig? He hadn't dropped any vig tells, as far as I could see. Was it just luck that they hit the vig, as MoS suggested in this post?

Wow. That has got to be the luckiest kill I have ever seen. I do not believe the scum thought he was vig, but wtf were they thinking.

I don't think it was luck at all. You know what I think? They probably have an information role on their team; perhaps they have a mafia rolecop, or a mafia tracker, or a mafia watcher. In any case, they investigated Oman night 2, and they got some information which led them to conclude that Oman was the vig. So they killed him last night. That makes much more sense than the suggestion that they just decided to kill the scummiest protown player, and they just happened to hit the vig.

Funny that you all of a sudden believe the scum had a power role...With there being a cult AND 2 mafia, I wouldn't think the mafia would have much power with only a roleblocker and vig on our side. This suggestion of yours makes so much sense it's pretty clear you're coming with outside information here.

Now, put yourself in a mafia member's shoes. Day 3 has just dawned. There are 6 players left: yourself, your scummate, the vig, and 3 other players. You just found out that Oman is the vig. As it is, the town has three chances left to pick off you and your scummate: two lynches, and one vig kill. If two of the three succeed, you're toast. You're going to kill the vig at night, of course. But what you'd really like is to do so without allowing the vig to make a kill. That would leave the town with no margin for error. But how can you do that?

How about suggesting a no lynch?

Except that if I was scum, that would be the most retarded plan ever. If I knew Oman was the vig, I would want him to kill that night after mislynching. Because his top two suspects were

YOU

, Troj, and

Tar

, the person you have so slyly asserted is probably protown based on the ballsy antics he pulled Day 1. Not that you ever consider the fact that mafia claiming vanilla townie baits the cult into failing on a recruit, which helps the mafia. Since there is so much WIFOM over a vanilla townie claim, he's unlikely to get lynched, so he's a horrible cult recruit. But you gloss over all that and act like he's the most likely town player here. Suspicious? I think so.

A perfect plan. It's a suggestion that you can make without looking scummy, since a reasonable case can be made that a no lynch helps the town. (I didn't buy MoS's case for a no lynch, but at the time, I didn't think he was scummy for making it.) Once the no lynch is made, the vig will obviously not kill the following night (that would be stupid). So you off the vig, and now it's 3:2. One more mislynch, and you win. Such an awesome plan.

One

more

mislynch? If we didn't no lynch, the game would probably have been over already, from your perspective. Oman would've killed you or Tar, and we probably would've lynched the other one, both of whom you assert are protown. If I was scum, I'd be all over a plan like that.

With or without the no lynch, we're trying to avoid mislynches. However, we have a much better chance of hitting scum now that we know the alignments of you and your scumpartner.

It should be obvious now that I think theo/MoS is scum. As a bit of a final note on MoS, I'd like to quote a particular post of his. This is from post 1425, which came during his argument with me over whether we should lynch or no lynch.

Also, mafia would want to lynch today, because that gives them the best chance of winning. There is no way to prevent the vig from killing tonight if we mislynch, because it's the obvious thing. However, by lynching today, the scum have a chance of smoking the vig out in the open with a bandwagon, which means they can kill the vig and hope that the vig misses his 50% chance of hitting scum.

Ah, MoS. So slick. So sneaky. You knew that if we didn't go along with your no lynch strategy, then we'd all force Oman to claim, and he'd reveal himself as the vig. Since you had stated your "fears" that pushing for a lynch would lead to the vig being exposed, you would then look super-townie, and I'd look super-scummy. So now I'm glad that we went along with your plan and no lynched. Gave us the chance figure out that YOU'RE scum.

Exactly why your theory here is bullshit. Why would I fight

against

a plan that would make me look super-protown? And since I was going to kill him that night anyways, why would it matter if I got him to claim? There's always the chance that he might die anyways. Hell, I could counterclaim him and get him lynched, because he did not look at all like the vig. If I was scum, Oman would've been lynched, and the game would be over already.

Not to mention that you are completely ignoring the statistics here. With a lynch yesterday, there is a 66% chance of lynching town, which is a 66% chance of pushing the game towards a win for scum. Then, the vig has only a 50% chance of hitting the right target, which is a 50% chance of scum winning. With the no lynch plan, the scum only have a 60% chance of avoiding lynch today, and a 50% chance tomorrow when we lynch correctly. The numbers are still in our favor.

So, who's MoS's partner? Less certain. As I've said before, I really doubt it's Tar, since I don't think a scum would do the kind of antics Tar did day 1. Because vollkan joined in the voting for no lynch, I think vollkan is more likely than pwayne. But that's weak evidence. I'm not prepared to vote for vollkan just based on that (I'm still looking for harder evidence). But I'm DEFINITELY ready to vote for MoS.

Still pushing the Tar thing really hard for him being protown, but phrasing it carefully with "really doubt", so that it doesn't quite look like an outright conviction. However, you haven't been willing to address arguments that Tar is probably scum, so I'm not buying it.

(Incidentally, even though I think vollkan is scum, I believe vollkan when he says he didn't realize he was hammering no lynch. I'm sure he honestly missed the 50% rule; otherwise, he wouldn't have voted so quickly after Oman did. I think he was just trying to be #3 on the bandwagon, and have someone else be the hammering vote.)

So that's my case. Come on, folks. Let's send MoS to the gallows.

Oh, almost forgot:

FoS MoS

. No vote until the group has had a chance to respond.

And here Trojan uses an appeal to emotion. Nice fallacy.

Troj and Tar are the scum here. It's pretty cut and dried. Wanna see vollkan and pwayne's responses to make sure they aren't scum first, by some miniscule chance of disaster.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, I did want to see who you suspected before I made my case. Was hoping you might give me something that would link you to your scummate. You gave me nothing. Smart move. We'll have to settle for lynching you and agonizing over who your scummate is.

Gotta love how you've become exceedingly confident and aggressive now that it's endgame, after you've been agonizing about being wrong all game. You were hesitant to attack anyone all game, and I called you out for it before. Why now? Because you only need a mislynch to win now. Nice try, but I don't think anyone's gonna buy it.

Funny that you all of a sudden believe the scum had a power role...With there being a cult AND 2 mafia, I wouldn't think the mafia would have much power with only a roleblocker and vig on our side. This suggestion of yours makes so much sense it's pretty clear you're coming with outside information here.

Or, it makes so much sense because I'm right. I "all of a sudden" started believing that the scum had a power role because I realized it's the best explanation for Oman's death. Don't think the scum would have shot the scummiest-looking player if they didn't know he was the vig.

Hence my "wtf" reaction, which you seem to take scumminess from, even though it's fairly reasonable, since even you admit that the scum wouldn't have shot the scummiest-looking player. Your logic doesn't follow. I'm perfectly willing to believe you're right, but considering your track record, I don't think it just "occurred" to you.

And as for the point about play balance: a vig is a strong role, don't forget. One lucky shot, and the scum could have been cut in half just like that. Makes sense that the mod would give the scum SOME power role to help in locating the vig.

The vig is a strong role that is EXTREMELY swingy. If the vig kills and kills wrong, it can really swing the game in the wrong way, since we're fighting a cult. With 2 kills a night AND a recruit, the cult could have quickly grown. With 2 scumgroups that the vig has to worry about, I wouldn't have thought it that unbalanced to have the setup as we know it (1 cult, 2 mafia, 1 vig, 1 RB, rest townies). A scum power role doesn't make it too much in favor of the mafia, but I certainly wouldn't have considered it a possibility until you "thought of it".

...
You're going to kill the vig at night, of course. But what you'd really like is to do so without allowing the vig to make a kill. That would leave the town with no margin for error. But how can you do that?

How about suggesting a no lynch?

Except that if I was scum, that would be the most retarded plan ever. If I knew Oman was the vig, I would want him to kill that night after mislynching. Because his top two suspects were

YOU

, Troj, and

Tar

, the person you have so slyly asserted is probably protown based on the ballsy antics he pulled Day 1.

Like you said earlier, MoS, you can't count on what the vig is going to do. While the town can't depend on the vig making good use of his shots, the scum can't depend on the vig making BAD use of them, either. Why take an unnecessary chance? You'd rather have the vig not shoot at all than shoot someone and possibly hit scum.

See, now you're countering your own arguments here. You're the one that said we should make use of the vig and lynch yesterday. If that's a valid argument, why are you agreeing with me that we

shouldn't

rely on the vig? Nice contradiction there, though.

Not that you ever consider the fact that mafia claiming vanilla townie baits the cult into failing on a recruit, which helps the mafia.

I didn't buy Tar's claim when he first made it. I definitely considered the possibility that he was scum trying to act townish. Also, I wasn't happy about his self-vote and immediate unvote that he made when he claimed. But when it looked like Tar might be lynched, he voted for himself AGAIN, saying that he'd rather have a recruitable townie (himself) lynched than a non-recruitable one (Kakeng). That's a bit too bold a move for a scum to pull off. If he's your scummate, then you two deserve to win.

Really? You don't think that a scum in a sinking ship with an established meta for acting crazy would act crazy when he's about to get lynched? That's awfully generous of you. I'm sure Tar is happy that you think that.

If we didn't no lynch, the game would probably have been over already, from your perspective. Oman would've killed you or Tar, and we probably would've lynched the other one, both of whom you assert are protown. If I was scum, I'd be all over a plan like that.

Again, you couldn't count on the vig making the wrong move. Better from your perspective to stop the vig from shooting altogether.

Except that letting Oman kill is the worst case scenario for the scum, and they STILL have a good chance of winning if he kills.

...

You knew that if we didn't go along with your no lynch strategy, then we'd all force Oman to claim, and he'd reveal himself as the vig. Since you had stated your "fears" that pushing for a lynch would lead to the vig being exposed, you would then look super-townie, and I'd look super-scummy.

...

Exactly why your theory here is bullshit. Why would I fight

against

a plan that would make me look super-protown?

Your top priority was to force a no lynch and then kill off the vig. I think this was just a backup plan; if we didn't no lynch, at least you could look more townish by having warned us that pushing for a lynch would expose the vig.

So, I had a backup plan that had a greater chance of success than the main plan? My looking super-townie means that Oman is not going to kill me, and I can pretty much push a lynch on whoever I want. If Oman isn't going to kill me, that means he has a 66% chance of shooting

wrong

after we lynch another townie, which is a damn good chance of me winning if I'm scum. A lot better than the chances I would have right now.

Hell, I could counterclaim him and get him lynched, because he did not look at all like the vig. If I was scum, Oman would've been lynched, and the game would be over already.

Wrong. You're an experienced player, MoS. You know exactly what would've happened if we were faced with two claimed vigs: we wouldn't have lynched EITHER of them. Let them shoot each other at night. Save ourselves a guess. Nah, you wouldn't have dared counterclaim the vig, since you'd just be trading a scum for the vig.

Trading a scum for a vig is a pretty good deal, if I'm that worried about him, as you seem to think I would be.

...

So that's my case. Come on, folks. Let's send MoS to the gallows.

Oh, almost forgot:

FoS MoS

. No vote until the group has had a chance to respond.

And here Trojan uses an appeal to emotion. Nice fallacy.

This is the first time all game that I've had any confidence that someone is scum. I can't help but be a little dramatic.

Correction: It's finally LYLO and you only need one mislynch to win the game, so you're being overly dramatic and confident with a flimsy case, because you don't have a better case to make against pwayne or vollkan. With me, you can just say my predecessor was scummy, which is something I can't defend against.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now,
MOS in 1477

Wow, I am fucking psychic. I'm like a freaking genius here. I read this post last night, and I was like "wow, this post screams scum to me. Troj sets up to make a "case" while excusing himself from having a bad scumdar all game, looks like a decent ploy to get people to believe he's finally right. And he's fishing for my opinion so that he can see who I suspect before he makes his case. So he's probably going to attack me, but I shouldn't say anything about how scummy this looks because then he'll just OMGUS me, and that would be bad." And look, it fucking happens, right as I called it. Jeez, I am better than Miss Cleo!

You've also noted the dramatic appeal with the "finally seeing the light" thing. Could you clarify what you mean about the OMGUS thing; I just don't follow you there.

By OMGUS, I mean that I felt an attack on Trojan (who I felt likely to be scum based on that post) would cause an OMGUS attack on myself, since Trojan would want to cast doubt on the alignment of someone who had attacked him. It seems that he felt I was the biggest threat/easiest target anyways, but that's not really the point.

Not to mention that you are completely ignoring the statistics here. With a lynch yesterday, there is a 66% chance of lynching town, which is a 66% chance of pushing the game towards a win for scum. Then, the vig has only a 50% chance of hitting the right target, which is a 50% chance of scum winning. With the no lynch plan, the scum only have a 60% chance of avoiding lynch today, and a 50% chance tomorrow when we lynch correctly. The numbers are still in our favor.

These numbers seem right. As such, this basically guts the whole of TH's "case".

Indeed. Vollkan, the problem with your numbers above is that you're taking the vig into account too much. Your probabilities are treating the vig as an entirely different case, when the proposed No Lynch/No Vig plan was not counting on the vig

at all

. The vig might be considered a backup plan that could save the day if all goes wrong, but the benefits of a vig were not factored into the plan, because we do not trust the vig to kill correctly. Right now we have a 50% chance of lynching scum, disregarding evidence that makes us more likely to lynch correctly. Yesterday, that chance was only 33%. Your problem is that you are delving too deeply into reliance on the statistics. The statistics are only meant to deal with the here and now, to give us the best chance of moving on in a positive manner to the next "day". The no lynch plan turned our 33% chance into a 50% chance. That is an improvement for us. It's true that the numbers statistically point towards a better chance the first day, but that's because the numbers after a successful mafia lynch are ridiculously in the town's favor. But if that was truly a statistic to be relied upon, why has the no lynch plan been broadly accepted across the mafia community? It's because you cannot depend on that first unlikely correct lynch to get you into a situation where the statistics are heavily in your favor. The no lynch plan does bring the scum slightly closer to winning overall, but it DOES give us better chances at making the correct decision. You have to realize this to be able to understand how it all goes together.

[Mastermind of Sin]

First up, what's with the 50%? If there are 2 scum and 5 players, our odds of lynching scum are 2/5.

Anyway, what I gather from this is that whilst the No Lynch is worse as a matter of pure global probability, the non-numerical factors (chiefly, not relying on a vig and not making a less-informed D3 lynch) actually cause it to run in our favour. And, as you say, our chances of lynching successfully in the here-and-now have actually increased. Thus, it was actually for the best.

Sorry, I keep thinking 50% from a personal perspective, but then 33% from global perspective yesterday. I don't know why I was making that error. Change the 50% to 40%, my bad. Point still stands, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...

Like you said earlier, MoS, you can't count on what the vig is going to do. While the town can't depend on the vig making good use of his shots, the scum can't depend on the vig making BAD use of them, either. Why take an unnecessary chance? You'd rather have the vig not shoot at all than shoot someone and possibly hit scum.

See, now you're countering your own arguments here. You're the one that said we should make use of the vig and lynch yesterday. If that's a valid argument, why are you agreeing with me that we

shouldn't

rely on the vig? Nice contradiction there, though.

Where's the contradiction? I said that the town can't DEPEND on the vig making good use of his shots. So, for example, if we only have one chance of hitting a scum, it's better that we use a lynch (where we all contribute to the discussion) than a vig kill. But when we were in day 3, we didn't just have one chance of hitting our first scum; we had TWO. One lynch, and (if that failed) one vig kill. Why not pool our chances?

But see, my no lynch plan doesn't depend on the vig kill at all. Your plan depends on the vig kill a lot more, because there was a

higher

probability of mislynching yesterday, and therefore a

higher

chance that the vig kill would have to be depended upon to find scum. So if you think the town can't depend on the vig, you shouldn't have wanted to lynch yesterday, since all the probabilities point towards having to do so.

This next quote from MoS was in response to my claims that Tar's antics make him unlikely to be scum.

Really? You don't think that a scum in a sinking ship with an established meta for acting crazy would act crazy when he's about to get lynched? That's awfully generous of you. I'm sure Tar is happy that you think that.

The ship wasn't just sinking. Water was about to come over the deck. No time for continued antics, if he was scum. I will say one thing, though. While I think RIGHT NOW that it is very unlikely that Tar is scum, my convictions will be shaken if Tar and I are both in the final 3 (with just one scum left to be found). That would seem too much like a perfect setup for me; the 3rd guy would be so "clearly" scum, that I would inevitably wonder if I was wrong, and that Tar was scum all along.

Tar's not 100% off my list. Close, but not quite.

I think you're really underplaying the effectiveness of Tar's antics, but it's clear that you're going to keep defending your scumbuddy while hedging your bets, so we're not going to agree anytime soon. This subject is bled dry.

...

Again, you couldn't count on the vig making the wrong move. Better from your perspective to stop the vig from shooting altogether.

Except that letting Oman kill is the worst case scenario for the scum, and they STILL have a good chance of winning if he kills.

"Letting Oman kill is the worst case scenario for the scum." Glad to see you finally agree with me.

You misunderstand me. The chance that Oman might

get

to kill is the worst thing that can happen if the mafia pushed for a mislynch yesterday. It's not a

bad

thing. But it's the

worst

in a series of

good

scenarios for the scum.

...

Your top priority was to force a no lynch and then kill off the vig. I think this was just a backup plan; if we didn't no lynch, at least you could look more townish by having warned us that pushing for a lynch would expose the vig.

So, I had a backup plan that had a greater chance of success than the main plan? My looking super-townie means that Oman is not going to kill me, and I can pretty much push a lynch on whoever I want. If Oman isn't going to kill me, that means he has a 66% chance of shooting

wrong

after we lynch another townie, which is a damn good chance of me winning if I'm scum. A lot better than the chances I would have right now.

No, your backup plan didn't have a greater chance of success than the main plan. Getting rid of the vig without having him kill would be best for the scum in any case. If you couldn't pull that off, you could at least try to not look scummy. But that isn't as good a scenario from your perspective. Just how non-scummy would you look? You might get lynched/vigged anyway. Getting rid of the vig was the best case scenario for the scum.

Wrong. It was pretty clear that Oman was in no way going to vig me soon, so there is no reason for me to have been afraid of him if I was scum. The only people that would be worried about the vig kill are Tar and Trojan Horse. Therefore, if the scum were worried about the vig as you say, you've just told us who the scum were. It's as simple as that.

...

You know exactly what would've happened if we were faced with two claimed vigs: we wouldn't have lynched EITHER of them. Let them shoot each other at night. Save ourselves a guess. Nah, you wouldn't have dared counterclaim the vig, since you'd just be trading a scum for the vig.

Trading a scum for a vig is a pretty good deal, if I'm that worried about him, as you seem to think I would be.

I could see a scum claiming vig early in day 3, so as to draw out the real vig (assuming they didn't already know who the vig was). But that has its risks. The vig could simply sit back and not counterclaim. No real need to, since he can just shoot the scum night 3 anyway. But the vig might not think of that, so that's a possible scum tactic.

What I CAN'T see is the scum claiming vig AFTER the real vig has claimed. The vig has been exposed. The scum can kill him off at night. Why should the scum expose one of their own? The town would leave both claimed vigs alone, and let them kill each other off. Counterclaiming the vig would be a total waste. (As you should know, MoS. You must have seen this situation a bunch of times before.)

I actually don't think I've ever seen that scenario. It didn't occur to me until you mentioned it the first time, and I'm clearly not the only one who didn't think of it. Clearly you've put more thought into the ramifications of scum strategies than the rest of us.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nope. In 102 completed games, I think this is the first time I've discussed vig counterclaims.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think I'm going to post again until Tar and pwayne have weighed into the thread. I want to see what they have to say, I think I've made it perfectly clear what I think by now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

pwayne, you realize that my list was completely and 100% random, as in I had no input on my own place in the list, right? It was pure chance that I claimed last, and asserting that I had anything to do with it when it's clear as day that I didn't is pure bullshit.

re: information role -

I think it's a reasonable explanation, but I never would have thought of it myself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I realize that it is possible that you turned up last on a random list. I don't, however know if the "dice roll" function is forge-able through font tags and such. I experimented a bit prior to my claim, but found nothing (the quote boxes seem to be the problem), so I didn't mention it.

If you quote my list, you'll see that they were created with actual dice tags. They will have a slightly different code in order to keep the same numbers when you quote it. However, if you repost said "fixed" dice rolls, it will tell you that they are fixed. Those were genuine rolls.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Tar's case seems like smoke and flames to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like pwayne to weigh in sooner.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm letting them. I'm just getting bored waiting.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like to refer you all back to this post for a more extensive case against Trojan, on top of what I already said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And here TH tries to turn back to his old antics. Clever, but it's not going to work with me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like to refer you all back to this post for a more extensive case against Trojan, on top of what I already said.

There was a significant stream of rebuttal and counter-rebuttal following that PBPA, so it can't really be considered on its own.

Of course not, but referring you back to that post allows you to read from there and see the responses and following discussion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

TH, I never asked you to respond to it. I just pointed people back to the earlier discussion about you so they could make their own conclusions since you'd responded to it in a later post. Your response to my link seemed like a bad attempt to diminish the effect of my post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're both partially right. I did post that to add onto my own case about TH being scummy, but I was also using it as a springboard. I still think that TH came out looking scummy at the end of the conversation started by that PBPA, so I linked everyone to the PBPA as a starting point of rereading that discussion.

The diversionary response doesn't make me think any better of you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You'll note that I never pushed for a Tar lynch, despite his uber-lurking. That's because he is my scumbuddy

I felt that he was town

Fixed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's getting tough for me to envision a scenario where Trojan Horse would not see my post as a reasonable interpretation and where he isn't scum or an idiot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not going to post any content or cast a vote until Tar and pwayne start giving us some content. Consider this a strike, especially against Tar. pwayne's not in trouble, Tar is. It's just that I'm waiting on them both, and pwayne happens to be waiting on Tar.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't frequent mafia discussion for discussing actual scenarios. The few times I post there are for improving our system of mafia rather than discussing strategies and situations. As for scumchat, it's just never come up. We've had a lot of crazy stuff, but a guy claiming vig is more likely to get randomly lynched in scumchat anyways, so scum don't need to counterclaim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good point about TH's suspicions dying off at night. I've seen that happen a lot from scum. Heck, I've done it myself. In Jack of All Trades, nearly everyone I attacked died at night. It doesn't make you look as scummy if you don't actually get them lynched, but you can waste all your time attacking them and then kill them off. No one can accuse you of not contributing, but you haven't brought yourself into the spotlight by pushing a big wagon, either.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think Oman killed MoS Night 2. Just sayin'.

Tyhess, when you're done, can you give us a little ordered list of your suspicions so that we can actually tell where you think people stand?

For example, my list would be Trojan, Tyhess, vollkan, pwayne from scummiest to least scummy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS-started the No lynch idea, and seems to know more than everyone else.

Tyhess, can you explain how I "seem to know more than everyone else"? What do I know more than everyone? What information do you think I have, and how does it make me scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, Trojan, I don't see a pattern. Please explain how, as town, I would not have had that reaction when Oman came up dead, which would imply that I knew he was vig. In that case, please explain how I, as town, would have figured out that Oman was the vig.

[Mastermind of Sin]

tyhess or vollkan. That should be obvious.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I don't have an explanation for Oman's death. Hence my WTF reaction when he showed up dead. I did not expect it, and I cannot fathom why they did it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, someone's gotta move this on to the next level eventually, it might as well be me. I'm not trying to hurry anything or say that we should stop discussing things. This is not a vote of impatience, either. I'm just confident enough in my read at this point that a

Vote: Trojan Horse

is in order.