Mini 488 - Killings in Clich├®-town - Game Over!

[ChronX]

Hi I'm replacing SPAG . I've read nothing but will within 24 hours.

[ChronX]

OK, I have read the game, although calling what I did with pages 7 and 8 "reading" might be generous.

5 people stand out.

In reverse order of scum:

d3sisted: I don't like his style of play much, and it is especially on display in this game, but I don't think it is especially scummy. His mason call in the very first post is worrisome, but might be a noob mistake since he was one when the post was made. Not today's play in my opinion.

Jenter and Honcho both seem to be actively lurking. Similar styles of silly posts, not much game content from them yet. This style of play can be a scum tell, but I highly doubt 2 would do it in the same game. Nothing else to go on with either at the moment.

IH has done 2 very scummy things. Post 85 where he tries to arouse suspicion of a vigkill is weird. It IS in fact the second instance where he has tried to create some cloud around the night kill, the first being the earlier exchange over the mason question.

FOS worthy

Buried in post 148 he MajorFOS's Gatorguy, but I suspect the reason he cited is disingenuous. I like Gatorguy for the way he handles the d3sisted play (worth keeping an eye on, but nothing major right now), of course its my stance too so naturally I like it. Personally, I think the MFoS on Gatorguy is OMGUS all the way back to when he first called out IH for the vigkill speculation.

FOS IH

But at the top of my scumdar at the moment is slash/vollkan. This pissing match with d3sisted seems staged. Slash was right there to stick up for IH for bringing up the vigkill hypothesis (post 96). Other than a bicker with d3 about post 41, slash otherwise lurked (but was here until post 100 or so). Mostly though, i don't like how hard vollkan has jumped into this fight with d3sisted.

We need to hear more from everyone else.

vote vollkan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Votecount:

as of post 219

d3sisted – 3 – Kison, IH, vollkan

Vollkan – 2 – D3sisted, ChronX
ChronX – 1 – Head_Honcho


Not Voting – 5 – GatorGuy91, Jenter Brolincani, Paradoxombie, poppinpuffin, the central scrutinizer

With

11

alive, it's

six

to lynch.

[ChronX]

mod

SPAG has a vote, I replaced him, my name should be edited in and inherit HH's vote

[ChronX]

2) Where in that post, or in any of my posts did I ever state I was looking for a reaction specifically from IH?
3) Indeed, something did emerge from this wagon; I caught you flipflopping, didn't I?
5) How am I expected to justify a random pressure wagon?

I'm still unsure how I became nervous.

Desisted, could you quote where I 'became nervous'? Instead of just me posting and catching up?

Mostly because you saw my vote on your and ricocheted an entire case on me. Then you kept asking why my vote was on you, when I felt it was quite clear it was a random pressure vote.

THIS post sums up d3sisted's case and I like it. d3 may play erratically but I do think his play brings out interesting responses, and that his play is NOT just desinged to get a reaction from the player he votes. Random bandwagons offer fodder for analysis later.

I am seeing a connection between slash/vollk and IH as I pointed out in my post where I voted.

[ChronX]

The logical step:

Slash's only game-related contribution to the game was to stick up for something scummy that IH did, and offer an explanation that tried to make it seem not scummy.

Vollkan replaces slash, and engages in a spirited defense of IH by engaging d3sisted. You essentially tagged into the fray, and allowed IH to ease back out of the fight.

IH has done some scummy things (refer to my post where I voted vollkan for details). IH has been bandwagoned. There is a possible link with vollkan/slash. Since it is day 1, explore that with a vote on vollkan.

[ChronX]

re:re Gatorguy FoS. You don't SAY anything about Gatorguy. You paste a quote up and MajorFoS him. I find this to be scummy play; it lets you "yuh huh" ANYTHING someone might say about Gatorguy as being suspicious. You need to be particular about what it is about that quote that is FoS worthy. As to my speculation, I got a vibe following gg's earlier post about you that you were unhappy about it, and looking to sting him for whatever came along.

[ChronX]

The following have not posted in at least 9 days:

Kison, Jenter, Gatorguy

(a LOT longer than that),

Head Honcho

I can't find a post from

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER

since he was subbed in.

mod prods

on all of them please????

I'm on it - MOD

[ChronX]

/agree

unvote
vote Jenter

This desisted lynch is stupid. He plays similarly in other games I've been in with him. Its aggravating as hell that people who try to play the game are fingered as scummy, but the ones who sit back and do nothing out of fear (which IS scummy) get a free pass.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Votecount:

as of post 242

d3sisted – 4 – Kison, IH, vollkan, Jenter Brolincani

Jenter Brolincani – 2 – ChronX, Paradoxombie
Vollkan – 1 – D3sisted,
ChronX – 1 – Head_Honcho

Not Voting – 3 – GatorGuy91, poppinpuffin, the central scrutinizer

With

11

alive, it's

six

to lynch.

[ChronX]

Elias, if you are referring to post 237, I think he just formatted badly. That is a quote from a while ago of d3sisted. Jenter voted in 227 and hadn't unvoted.

[ChronX]

I hope we get replacement for gatorguy (aug 26 last post) and activity from the other half of the town on day 2.

[ChronX]

Jenter, your posts this game have hardly given us anything. Then, you leave for 10 days and that's all you can manage to contribute?

Same goes for TCS: is that all you've come up with on your readthrough? That there's nothing to comment on and that I'm the best lead you have? This is just disgusting.

Quoting the dead for truth.

I would like an answer from Jenter and CentralScrut on the following question:

Now that we know the d3sisted was town, do you think it is likely that there was 1 or more scum on the small bandwagon which got him killed, or do you think it more likely that d3sisted's playstyle led to a legitimate if erroneous mislynch, and the scum just stayed away from it altogether?

[ChronX]

/ooc /confused

Is Jeep's list of scumtells only applicable to day 1? Would someone post a link to it? It doesn't turn up on the wiki. Thanks

/back ic

[ChronX]

From the GM rules:
5. Votes must be in the following format: Vote: Player_Name. If your vote does not follow that format, (make sure it’s bold) your vote will not count. Unvoting when changing your vote is not required, but it is suggested.


And yeah his vote was 229 not 227.

[ChronX]

ALERT: Family plans most of the weekend, which includes Monday (US pseudo-holiday). Very limited time to spend on site.

[ChronX]

Vote Jenter B

I didn't like him for town day 1 and I don't like him any better now.

[ChronX]

@Bookitty: I'll need to reread to recall. I think I thought everyone on the d3sisted wagon had the potential to be scum. I also seem to recall IH and Vollkan forming a tag team to argue with someone, while Jenter just kind of joined the wagon for the ride.

I'm involved in a game which is deadlined (26 hours or so to go) and probably LyLo so I've had my head mainly there.

[ChronX]

OK I have gotten myself lynched in the deadlined game, so I had time to reread this whole game. Its kind of poor, frankly. But I have been able to come up with a list of suspects. A lot of this is gut and impressions based on back and forths, and is subject to change after I reflect some more and get back into the rythm of this game.

MOST TOWN: Central Scrutinizer. I liked Trumpezia's 2 points he made early, the one about IH (actually, I think he misread IH's misread of the mason commentary there, but the pressure he applied did good work) and also his observation about Kison's reasons for getting things going with d3 versus Jenter just piling in. As you will read later, I somewhat disagree with the conclusion about Kison, but Trump struck me as town while minimally participating. CentScrut reads like a guy who got subbed to a boring (vanilla) role and isn't all that interested.

Gatorguy/Adel and the parade of subs currently called Bookitty also strike me as town. Bookitty and Adel couldn't be more different in how they go about things, but I don't especially mind Adel's flakiness at the moment.

Head Honcho's play has been awful, and he has given off some scumtells, as cataloged elsewhere. But I read him as VI not scum.

Jenter's play has been awful, and fishy. Never tells us why he thinks d3sisted play, which several attribute to playstyle, is scummy. Becomes very aroused that vollkan challenges him to make a case of his own about d3, almost like he is wounded that someone else on the wagon he is so proud of himself for finding is turning on him. I read him as scummy, burdened with being a VI to boot. However, I think he shouldn't be lynched today, as he has already cracked and OMGUSd Adel under the pressure. We know what we need to know about Jenter, I would HATE to see the mafiascum trademark claim call go out on Jenter at this point in the game. No good would come of a Jenter forced claim right now.

Paradoxombie is a hard read for me. He reads town, but could be going along under the radar. Seems scummier in context than when I read him in isolation, if that makes sense. Just his posts all sound like someone who is reasonably trying to get a handle on an odd game. But sometimes in the flow of conversation he looks opportunistic. Conclusion for now, I lean town on Para.

My 3 scummiest players are the remaining 3.

IH leads the league in scummy to me. He repeatedly tried to make us think that the first NK was not mafia performed. He pushes the d3 lynch very hard. He flings his vote onto Jenter early on during the mason explanation debacle, and then has to retreat off of it because he got the facts wrong. If you believe Jenter to be scum, this could be read as a weak effort at distancing early. I've mentioned in other posts how bizarre I found his FoS on Gatorguy. I am convinced there is scum to be found on the d3 wagon, so at a minimum there is a 25% chance he is scum. I think the NK distraction is breadcrumbing for a later SK theory and doc claim. Also, as a bit of craplogic but it occurred to me as soon as I read it, his replacement request almost convinces me more of his scumminess. This game is littered with lurkers and contentless players, and clearly the mod tolerates it. He could easily just hang about and post next-to-nothing and stay in the game. His "detrimental" comment almost seems like he feels guilty not being here for his mafia buddies. Again, I acknowledge this to be flimsy at best and certainly wouldn't be a case on its own but also feel it is worth mentioning in the wall of words about him.


Vollkan, replaces Slash, who did one and only one thing in the game, which was to stick up for IH's NK theories. Vollkan joins the game and the wagon on d3, and promptly gets in a shoving match with d3, taking the load off of IH who had been carrying it most convincingly to that point. I call Vollkan on this fact, and Vollkan suddenly looks a lot more town. He has posted some good content, but I think we need to treat Vollkan theories with a grain of salt until we have outside info about his alignment. Aside from the fact it would be insane for all 3 scum to be on the d3 wagon, I would easily see a Vollkan, Jenter, IH trio.

Kison. Reads neutral to scum. Starts the d3 wagon, and seems pretty convinced of it. Other than that, only really doesn't like Para. Sticks up for Head Honcho. 2 or 3 times has popped in with cutesy posts which seem to bemoan the lack of activity, but hasn't advanced the game himself much at all. I am always most suspicious of in-the-open lurkers. Kison might be worth pressuring today to get some more out of him.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:

Jenter, likely scum who I think the town can keep in its pocket for now.
IH, VERY likely scum. If he wasn't in the midst of being replaced I would vote him.
Vollkan and Kison, possible scum. I am going to urge a bandwagon on Kison, and will vote accordingly.

unvote
vote: Kison

[ChronX]

I await a diagram.

[ChronX]

2 questions for ChronX:

1) You listed Jenter in your "Most Town" category, but then you said he has already cracked and you put him as scummy in the "Executive Summary". Can you just clarify this? Based on your summary, I think you are saying that you think he is very likely scum but that you don't want him lynched.

1) What do you mean by "We know what we need to know about Jenter"?

I can see your point ChronX, but I am going to keep my vote on Jenter for the time being to keep up the pressure. He has shifted into pure lurking (along with many other people).

1. You misread my post OR it was murky. The most town category was Central Scrutinizer alone. As each player is listed as the post goes along, they get less town.

2. Jenter is scummy, and reacted poorly under the pressure, sucha s the OMGUS at Adel. He has exhibited signs of being village idiotic too. Further pressure may lead to a save-his-neck claim, which from HIM I think would be harmful to the town and dubious at best. We aren't under deadline, I think we should explore others. We can lynch Jenter at our leisure. There is no reason to ignore other leads.

[ChronX]

What do you want out of me Chronx? I'm pissing me pants in fear here.

This is a good start. Do you think our other 2 village idiots are lonely and you want to join them? Way to keep the post count up while not hunting scum.

[ChronX]

Votecount is wrong, Bookitty unvoted Adel and put it on Jenter in 306.

unvote
vote Adel

Softclaiming town, in 305. Scummy.

[ChronX]

Adel, can you tell us one player you think is very town right now, and explain why? The non-verbose thing is going to get you lynched, and ISN'T helping the town. With your softclaim, I presume you would rather see the town win.

[ChronX]

Lets think for a moment.

2 dead town.
1 claimed cop, with a guilty on Bookitty, but he brings up sanity, which seems a little cagey.

If we lynch Bookitty today, and she were to turn up innocent, Fonz COULD argue the WIFOMy case if he lives through the night that he must be insane and we would lynch one of his "innocents".

The problem with all this, is that if we lose an innocent today, and lose someone tonight (which seems likely since if we have a doc they would have to protect Fonz even if Bookitty turns out town), we'd be down 2 more town, and the sun would rise tomorrow on most likely a 5 town, 3 scum roster. Which is almost LyLo.

I am inclined to believe Fonz but I think if Boo isn't scum we don't have options, we'd have to lynch Fonz.

unvote
Vote: Bookitty

[ChronX]

Also, I want to point out that the remaining mason should NOT be tempted to claim in the face of Fonz's claim. A mason claim would narrow down the field of possible docs for the mafia.

[ChronX]

@mod: Please replace me in this game

I am not going to participate in games on this site anymore due to its tolerance of open flaming and open cross gaming by Team Asshat and probably others since they get away with it.

I had no issues with this game but I really don't like the overall acceptance of bad behavior on this site nor the recent influx of something awful players who are also by and large jerks.

Sorry to disrupt this game.

[ChronX]

mods talked me into continuing with games not directly affected by the persons I had a problem with. thanks sorry for any disruption

[ChronX]

Adel is 99% scum, paradox a good partner candidate...

I don't like this wagon one bit. We've no idea wether or not Fonz is sane, or town. This makes his information complete rubbish as far as trying to find scum is concerned.

Fingers Paradox.

Boos the bookitty wagon lustily.

And early was employing the ever scummy "I'm very confused" technique of running up the post count without saying anything.

Good enough for me.

Vote: Jenter

[ChronX]

@mod can you keep the who replaced who info even after the replacement dies? May become useful info and helps to be able to refer to post 1, thanks

Sure thing. Links to Day and Night scenes now included also. - Mod

[ChronX]

@mod We need prod for The Central Scrutinizer

I prodded him some time ago and got no response. I've been searching for a replacement for some time.

@all including mod We should probably hold our horses until we get a replacement for IH

.

Is it bad form on this site to ask around for replacements? I know a couple of good players who I don't believe are overburdened with games, since they are among the newcomers from SA, and so may not know about the replacement game queue. And they are the tolerable people from SA, not the couple of jerks that came with them.

If you think you can some people to replace, then by all means, contact them. I've been asking for 2 replacements for a while but with no result as of yet.

[ChronX]

Meh, I REALLY wished I'd managed to post earlier now. Obviously, we can't assume Jenter's innocence until everyone has a chance to counterclaim, but

mason is a fairly suicidal fakeclaim.

I didn't like Jenter's actions. But tying yourself that closely to the probable scum over the claimed cop is a faintly ridiculous course of action for a scumbuddy. It seemed much more likely to arise from misguided conviction than as a scumtactic.

Also, the killing of Paradox, who Jenter had been tying to Adel, seems to me to incriminate the latter over the former.

My initial re-read (bear in mind I had the luxury of pretty much knowing Kitty scum) made me particularly suspicious of a) Vollkan and b) IH. The innocent on the former doesn't rule out him being GF of course, but it does mean he's clearly not the play for now. I will be voting Adel or an IH replacement today.

Mason isn't so suicidal since one (presumably, the only other one) is dead. If its a fakeclaim, the real one has to step forward and becomes a target.

[ChronX]

If he claimed doc, he would be asked who he protected and why.

[ChronX]

Its also more easily refuted if we have a real one.

Trust me, I know. I recently fakeclaimed (as town, STUPID, lesson learned) tracker, and found myself in an ever decaying spiral of trying to keep my "facts" straight. The sad thing is, I was right with all of my suspicions, and my fakeclaimed results were very close to the truth, but I couldn't quite get out of them.

Sorry, tangent. Jenter's claim should be treated as better-than-even odds true unless another mason claim steps forward. And if its a fakeclaim that outs a mason, it is useful to the scum as trying to directly out the doc, since it narrows down the field of possible docs.

unvote

Somewhat relunctantly, given the state of reaplcements, but as a member of the Justice League it is my responsibility to do what is right for the town! /pompous off

[ChronX]

~~~~~~~~~

Votecount

~~~~~~~~~

End of Page 17.

Adel - 2 -

(Jenter, TheFonz)

Jenter Brolincani - 1 -

(Vollkan, Adel)

Not Voting - 4 - (Kison, ChronX, The Central Scrutinizer, IH)

With eight alive, it takes

five

to lynch.

Replacements still needed for IH and TCS. Please ask your friends.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course, 2/6 of the rest of the game is missing....that couldn't, hypothetically, have anything to do with it?

[ChronX]

I see no reason for you to claim. You have one vote and its from a player who is currently playing with a screw loose.

I also had to think through both sides of the argument for/against counter claim before I came to a conclusion (if someone else wants to claim mason they should).

Lacking input from 2 players though, I don't see how we can proceed anywhere. Either could be a real mason, or have other info for us.

[ChronX]

request replacement

I am tired of the pace of games, and I am tired of trying to play games with 2 or more players MIA and yet everyone else is expected to carry on. Its not the way the game is meant to be played.

[ChronX]

I spoke to Elias and if replacements materialize so that we can have a meaningful game take place before the deadline, I will keep playing. Otherwise, this game should be mercy killed.

[ChronX]

You are just totally ruling out the absentees as being potential scum?

[ChronX]

Ah, I see, you are saying at least ONE of them must be.

Adel's counter argument would be that you, as godfather, were available to send in the NK.


I'm just sayin.

[ChronX]

Catching up. The OMGUS vote does it for me; the rest of the case on Adel has been pretty solid, but that is ridiculous.

vote Adel

[ChronX]

2. ChronX (replacement for SPAG, replacement for Ekto)
-spag was really suspicious, and I didn't like chronX's play much either. I didn't like his suspicions iirc, and the recent "oh no actives I'll quit" mentality strikes me as scum who is frustrated townies are afk. however, innocent result, so I don't think he's the play for today.

For what its worth about the quitting thing, I have asked for replacement in all but one game; that game is actually being played. It has nothing to do with me being scum or not; I don't like mafia games that last 7 months. I prefer to play at the site I came from where the games take less than 2 weeks, and there is a waiting list of 4 to 5 potential replacements, so people don't have the leisure to go afk. Elias begged me to stay here and I agreed since he had 2 pending replacements. So asking to replace out of 5 games is hardly a scum tell in all of them (or unlikely to be).

As to the rest of your "case" on me....what is it, exactly. Which of my suspicions don't you like? Can you be a bit more definitive? Or are you just casting an OMGUS suspicion my way since I was very vocally suspicious of IH with my postings, and now I'm voting your scumbuddy Adel? Do you think we won't notice that you express your desire to be on the Adel wagon, but content yourself with an FoS? Do you think we will forget that IH was conspicuously absent from the Bookitty wagon? Do you think we will forget that IH conveniently took the heat off by going AWOL when he has been a leading suspect?

[ChronX]

I'm not really trying to be sly. You are suspicious since your predecessor was. Your contribution is apparently going to be slim anyway, since you "aren't all about building cases". Instead, you will post things like "I don't think he's the play for today" about someone the cop has an innocent on. Are you saying I'm the play for tomorrow? Are you speculating that I might be a godfather, the way Adel has done with Vollkan?

[ChronX]

Oh, I like how you agree with Adel about the theory of Mafia Mason too. I've never heard of mini game with a mafia-town mason setup that (a) started with night and (b) didn't have a suicide pact involved. Are you seriously speculating a role where the town mason would have to not be NK'd on Night Zero for it to have any value? I understand the theory (provides safe claim for the mafia partner) but in a normal mini? Thats a pretty harsh role to impose on the town half...1/11 random chance that the doc saves, otherwise, thanks for signing up.

[ChronX]

claim

vanilla townie. better to lynch me than someone who may be the doc.
Kison then volkon should be the following lynches. I'm still convinced that there is still a godfather or mafia mason.

@guardian- it has been several months since we played in a non-mishmash game together. my style has evolved.

If you think Kison then Vollkan are the right candidates for lynch, you are voting Korlash because....?

Oh right, I can't understand because you are so good at mafia theory.

[ChronX]

OK, so let me understand.

You MISTAKENLY said we should lynch Kison next, but meant Korlash, who you are voting for. Your case on lynching Korlash is....

well now, that vote certainly convinced me. unvote, vote:Korlash

an OMGUS vote. Right. You have NEVER mentioned Korlash's predecessor as suspicious. You agreed with one thing he said, the only reference to him by you in the whole thread.

But, in your most recent post, you say you will support a lynch "from beyond the grave" on Jenter...who is neither Korlash nor Vollkan (nor even Kison).

Maybe you are right to go with the "ha" minimalist post crap. You sure can't keep your lies straight once you start talking.

[ChronX]

Checking in to note that I received the PM that the day has begun. Will wait to hear from Fonz's investigation results.

[ChronX]

*waits to hear from Jenter*

[ChronX]

Interesting set of claims

Fonz: claimed cop, innocents on ChronX and Korlash (and Vollkan, dead doc)
Jenter has claimed mason...some speculation on whether he is mafia mason
Guardian claims Tracker, claims to have tracked Jenter to Vollkan's house

We know we HAD an "innocent" mason, which may imply the mafia mason role
We HAD a doc
There was a mafia roleblocker

I hate trying to second guess the mod, but if we really had a cop and a tracker, there would almost certainly have needed a Godfather to balance that off

Best play would seem to be Jenter, pending what he has to say.

Kison could be anything, either Korlash or I could be godfather. Fonz or Guardian could be fake claiming, but I doubt it. If Guardian is fake claiming and is mafia, then Korlash is the other mafia (note that in Guardian's claim, Bookitty targetted TCS which is now Korlash). This is too paranoid for making the basis of a vote, IMO.

I will most likely vote Jenter but want to hear from him first. The only thing that bothers me is that the mod so heavy handedly put that innocent mason thing in there.

[ChronX]

Actually, the vote on you is doing a lot of good, IMO.

[ChronX]

@ Korlash:
You said "But the talk of a "godfather" makes me doubt ChronX now.. "

Why

now

?

Fonz raised sanity issues when he first claimed, and there has been speculation throughout the thread about Godfather. Almost every analysis has included the scenario that one of the innocents (me and Vollkan, now me and you) that Fonz has could be investigation immune.

I have no problem with you doubting me, it is the now that bothers me.

By the way, to clarify my cryptic post above...

I still lean toward Jenter being slightly more likely to be scum, with uninvestigated Kison or apparent innocent Korlash as the other. But Jenter's posting is passionately sincere sounding, and Guardian is FREAKING OUT about the votes on him. Right now my decision is between the 2 of them.

[ChronX]

I just read back. IH was pretty scummy. That whole thing with d3sisted was basically IH's doing. With Jenter's help.

[ChronX]

Actually, the vote on you is doing a lot of good, IMO.

Why do you feel this way?

I explained, last paragraph of 517. The votes are making you lose your mind, a leading scumtell.

[ChronX]

vote: Guardian

Your anger/sarcasm is really rubbing me the wrong way, and no, I'm not going to meta you to find out you are just a dillhole. Korlash's explanation is very rational:

Lets stipulate that Korlash is town. He therefore wouldn't need Fonz to tell him that he, himself, is town, he'd know. He believes Fonz's cop claim, and believed his innocent on me and Vollkan. He believes Jenter to be town in the absence of a counter claim. Thus, process of elimination, Guardian and Kison must be scum.


This is really the simplest explanation, and we've all heard of Occam.

Call my vote a policy vote against anger if it turns out you aren't scum. You are acting scummy.

[ChronX]

Are we still doing the claiming thing?

vanilla

unvote

Except....

IH targeted Bookitty night 1, and she targeted TCS. Not useful now.

Guardian claims that Bookitty targetted TCS (Central Scrutinizer) with a night action. TCS is now Korlash, which Guardian is pushing as scum. Why would the mafia roleblocker roleblock a fellow mafia?

This contradiction is enough for me to confirm

VOTE: Guardian

[ChronX]

Wow, ChronX, that was dumb of you.

I hadn't even noticed that.

....I guess my read on Korlash is off? That really, really saddens me.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that ChronX is mafia with Jenter -- and ChronX just pointed it out to us .

I guess from your POV, if you get me lynched, its all the same if you and Jenter are a definite pair. But wow, yeah, I can't argue with the result Elias gave me, and the only thing that makes sense is Jenter-ChronX.

This is the dumbest "oh my god you caught me" post ever. It would put more doubt in my mind if you had claimed caught mafia at this point.

[ChronX]

.......

and it makes sense for scum Guardian not to do that?

................

A scum guardian would have made his results up on the spot, and might not have had time to think through the implications of what he claimed to have seen.

Doc claim: thought you were vanilla= thought you were not a powerrole, doc is the last 'obvious' powerrole left.

The bolded for emphasis part is the basis of my theory. The simplest explanation here is that Guardian is mafia, and messed up his fake claim. Kison is most likely his partner, since he is not hammering and keeping very quiet.

[ChronX]

Also, realistically, it's just as likely that it was a vigkill. Or even an SK kill.

Lest we forget this foolishness from Guardian's predecessor.

[ChronX]

Um... yeees, so you can spread suspicion around instead of having to plump for just two people to go for.

QFT here. Rereading Guardian, he has been actively suspicious of EVERYONE at various points. Before the Adel lynch he was very suspicious of her and Korlash and would not support lynching me because of the innocent result from Fonz, and also was leaning Jenter being a town mason. Today, he has questioned the Fonz as a legit cop, and is pushing Jenter as the scummiest of the scum with his made up result on him.

Oh wait...there is SOMEONE guardian isn't suspicious of:

5. Kison (replacement for Hand banana)
Pretty town

[ChronX]

He didn't point out a flaw in my defense, he pointed out how I'd failed to fully interpret my results.

I didn't point out how you failed to fully interpret your results. I pointed out how you did a really poor job of thinking through the implications of the fake results that you made up. You got confused and tried to pin suspicion on someone who your fake results would have cleared, if they were real results, but that point is irrelevant, because they are fake and you are caught scum.

Damn, seriously, I tracked scum and am at lynch -1 at lylo.

You tracked scum footprints, all over our carpet. Thats why you are at -1.

[ChronX]

Guardian has every reason to fakeclaim there. If there is more than one scum left (very, very likely) then we're at LyLo.

My case rests on Fonz's quote above, scummy vibes/play from IH and the phoney baloney tracker claim. I was skeptical of the tracker claim because it is just too implausible, which is why I was reading Guardian's postings and read his claim with a fine tooth comb.

As Guardian correctly points out, Kison hasn't been too scummy. Voting for him would be a poor act under Lylo. I believe Fonz is the cop, since he would have been unlikely to bus a roleblocker IMO. I believe his innocent on me and Korlash. Again, to chase me or Korlash when AT MOST one of us could be investigation-immune mafia godfather would be poor play at lylo. Jenter is a mason of some sort since there hasn't been a counterclaim. He may or may not be a bad mason. Since he can't lawfully quote his role PM, we can't really know.

Guardian is a good odds-on play, since he hasn't been cleared, had a scummy predecessor, and has made a scummy-ish claim at Lylo. If we nab him as scum, we will be able to investigate all the WIFOMy and other stuff next day. He might turn out to be a godfather, which would clear me and Korlash entirely and let us be the hammer, thus depriving the remaining mafia that opportunity. Basically, Jenter would have to vote Kison and Kison would have to vote Jenter and then submit to interrogation by Korlash and I (assuming Fonz would be offed).

[ChronX]

What more talk today is going to be helpful?

If Guard flips Godfather, ChronX (me) and Korlash are clear and we become the Justice League and have to interrogate Kison and Jenter. We can't make much headway on that topic today.

If Guard flips regular scum, it becomes possible that either Korlash or ChronX (me) could be investigation-immune Godfather. We then have a WIFOM snarled mess that the remaining scum could be any of the 4 of us for various reasons.

If Guard flips town, we lose and the incriminations can begin. I have a hard time believing that Fonz has faked his cop claim, because of the timing of his original claim, and the fact he exposed a result on the mafia Roleblocker. Unless the mafia has 2 other cool powers it doesn't make sense for them to lose the roleblocker to validate a fake cop claim. So, with Guard as real town tracker and Fonz as real town cop, we have Jenter and possibly me as Godfather or Kison as indeterminate scum role. If Guard is town and faked the tracker claim, it will be easy to point the finger of blame even if he is right about Jenter.

So, short of badgering Guard to retract his tracker claim and admit to being vanilla town with a strong hunch, what more conversation is there to partake of? I will be happy to if someone can come up with something to actually discuss. But 2 more pages and 10 more days of people posting just enough to be considered active doesn't make sense to me.

[ChronX]

I don't "want to get the game over"....but I can't stand the "lets not lynch because something might happen" phase.

[ChronX]

Uhh, if Guardian "flips" town, I do believe we enter into the stage of the game known as "Game Over".

More later.

I said that in the part where I said, "we lose". Of course, if you aren't town, you wouldn't understand the "we" part.

[ChronX]

I don't "want to get the game over"....but I can't stand the "lets not lynch because something might happen" phase.

And I don't see you proposing anything new to discuss, just pontificating that there's no need to rush things. It doesn't make you look more town, you know.....

[ChronX]

And I don't see you proposing anything new to discuss, just pontificating that there's no need to rush things. It doesn't make you look more town, you know.....

Right... Sorry if my waiting to be certain I'm hammering scum before I cost us the game is upsetting you... I mean we all have our faults right, like Guard's bad playing, and the stick up your ass.

If I remember correctly the last two pages have been MOSTLY ME! Where the hell have you been? Don't start talking about things you have no understanding about. Especially when your "case" is all admittedly based on something someone else said. Why don't you stop wasting my time and take your own advice...

I had hoped to find reasonable doubt in you and Jenter, but I never expected to see THIS much... Man if you are scum your the dumbest person I have ever seen play.

How did we go from "you like my stuff" to "a case based mostly on what someone else said"? Thats hardly the case, unless you mean all tehe scummy stuff Guardian has said....

[ChronX]

And I don't see you proposing anything new to discuss, just pontificating that there's no need to rush things. It doesn't make you look more town, you know.....

Right... Sorry if my waiting to be certain I'm hammering scum before I cost us the game is upsetting you... I mean we all have our faults right, like Guard's bad playing, and the stick up your ass.

If I remember correctly the last two pages have been MOSTLY ME! Where the hell have you been? Don't start talking about things you have no understanding about. Especially when your "case" is all admittedly based on something someone else said. Why don't you stop wasting my time and take your own advice...

I had hoped to find reasonable doubt in you and Jenter, but I never expected to see THIS much... Man if you are scum your the dumbest person I have ever seen play.

Also, I have 7 or 8 posts over the last 2 pages. Everyone has a couple. Mostly they have been conversing with you, true. Maybe you are trying to look town while not hammering Guard?

[ChronX]

And I don't see you proposing anything new to discuss, just pontificating that there's no need to rush things. It doesn't make you look more town, you know.....

Right... Sorry if my waiting to be certain I'm hammering scum before I cost us the game is upsetting you... I mean we all have our faults right, like Guard's bad playing, and the stick up your ass.

If I remember correctly the last two pages have been MOSTLY ME! Where the hell have you been? Don't start talking about things you have no understanding about. Especially when your "case" is all admittedly based on something someone else said. Why don't you stop wasting my time and take your own advice...

I had hoped to find reasonable doubt in you and Jenter, but I never expected to see THIS much... Man if you are scum your the dumbest person I have ever seen play.

Oh yeah, and "where the hell I was" was in my sig....it was a holiday weekend, I enjoyed my family's company rather than paranoid nervousniks on the interwebs.

[ChronX]

~~~~~~~~~

Votecount

~~~~~~~~~

Post 633.

Guardian - 3 -

(Jenter, ChronX, the fonz)

Jenter - 1 -

(Guardian)

ChronX - 1 -

(Korlash)

Not Voting - 1 - (Kison)

With six alive, it takes

four

to lynch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Korlash

OK, so you are looking for conversation. Since Jenter and I obliged you by restating our reasons for voting Guardian, please address any and all of the following:

1. Do you have any concrete thoughts about each (any?) player left in the game? Your posting style is to ramble aloud and question your own conclusions right after you state them. I haven't meta'd you; maybe you are always selfdoubting. Please make a definitive statement about 1 or more of the 5 of us also in the game.

2. Why were you so willing to vote Guardian before Fonz had even turned up to post results, but now that he has been caught in a lie/misrepresentation (which was simultaneous to him pushing a case on you), and he is at L-1, you are having such a difficult time putting your vote back on him? What has changed to make him less votable?

3. You want more talk, but so far all you have done to stimulate it is to ask the people voting Guardian to restate why. You then used my restatement to cast doubt on my status, with your comment that my case is "largely based on what others said", which is not true at all. Unless of course, you mean that my case is largely based on what IH and guardian have said, by "others".
Are you trying to get people to say things that you can use against them if we get to tomorrow?

4. Do you realize that I am not even trying to be subtle with points 2 and 3 in suggesting that I find your behavior lately to be scummy?

[ChronX]

Uh huh... so... Better to lynch then let the mafia win by the deadline kill... Guess that means there is only one thing to do...

Unvote:, Vote: ChronX

Man... That didn't solve anything... Looks like you other town will have to come to your senses here...

*Rolls eyes*

This is hilarious. I guess when/if Guardian comes up regular mafia or at least not investigation immune, you have made the next day easier for everyone. Really transparent job bussing with that sunrise vote there Korlash. Really transparent job by your scum buddy trying to clear you with his made up results about the mafia roleblocker roleblocking you.

[ChronX]

Oh, ps, you forgot "OMGUS" when you voted me.

[ChronX]

Where, exactly, are you getting with me? You have invented a case based on misquoting me. In my post RE-explaining my case on Guardian (which, in hindsight, I now understand was a scummy ploy by you), I quote Fonz, who states in one nice neat sentence the basis for anyone to doubt Guardian's claim. I have been expressing a certain amount of skepticism about his claim all along...for example:

If Guardian is fake claiming and is mafia, then Korlash is the other mafia (note that in Guardian's claim, Bookitty targetted TCS which is now Korlash).

I brought this same fact up again later after he was bussing, un i mean, trying to get you lynched.

My case doesn't rest on what Fonz said because Fonz said it, I've been saying the same thing all along.

Guardian=lying caught scum. He has flung suspicion all over everyone else...if I point that out and mention that Kison has also noticed that, does that make another point in my case depend on what someone else said? Uh oh, now my case on Guardian is 1/2 based on what other people have noticed....*tremble*...except that I've been saying the same things. Because they are obvious, and obviously scummy.

The fact is, everyone is tainted with WIFOM from the way Guardian has played today. But your play makes you stand out as the most obvious buddy of him. If he turns out to be Godfather making it unlikely that you are also investigation immune and the innocent on you is real, I will be very surprised and owe you an apology. You seem to feel the same way about me so maybe this is town on town crime and you should focus your attention back on the source of it, scum-Guardian.

[ChronX]

Yeah, now that I've cooled down a couple hours after reading his post and writing mine, I agree. My last couple of sentences indicate I was already heading that way. When Guardian comes up Mafia, the remaining 4 of us will have to be very careful how we analyze anything that was generated as a result of the lies and disinformation Guardian has been spreading. Its important that we all realize this is another example of Guardian's scumminess, how he is infecting the rest of the town with suspcicion of each other when he has been plenty suspicious.

[ChronX]

Kison: please don't misunderstand. I don't mind more discussion if it is something new. I think your post that I am respoinding to, and Fonz's recent contribution, are very worthwhile. What I am opposed to is mindlessly sitting around waiting for some AH-HA moment to occur while we all post just barely enough to avoid being prodded until the deadline. I suspect that people who only play here at MS don't understand this distinction; I am used to and far more enjoy games with 72 hour deadlines played on other sites. But I think people are sick of hearing me complain about the slow and tentative play here.

[ChronX]

I will be out of town until sunday. Do me a favor and shut up if a lynch occurs, as I will be unable to lock the thread.

[ChronX]

I am back after my silence after the lynch too. Korlash, I as well got carried away toward the end of the day. Guardian was very corrosive.

The good thing is, you (Korlash) and I are 100% cleared since Fonz gave us a scum result so his sanity is not in doubt, and Guardian was GF so we can't be investigation immune.

I am of no mind to belabor this day but we need to hear from Jenter before I will vote. Kison has played very well and deserves the opportunity to mount some defense. Also, Jenter has been under heavy suspicion and deserves to do some active interrogating of Kison if he so chooses.

However, as our deceased cop reasoned, GF-RB-scum mason seems very heavy handed for a town with only cop and doc to counter. Cop doc masons vs GF RB and maybe a lite power or regular goon seems more likely. Guardian also played the last day horribly and really overplayed the Kison must be innocent hand. I think he never thought that we wouldn't lynch Jenter eventually and that his actions wouldn't haunt Kison today. And Kison's first pass at a defense is a little confusing since he almost sounds like he is still trying to cast suspicion onto Korlash. Am I misreading that Kison?

[ChronX]

Yeah you're vote is no worry as long as I withhold mine. We don't want to allow Jenter to hammer him, because they are both suspects of varying suspicion.

[ChronX]

I don't want to discuss more of my strategy than to say my strategy is to not vote until we hear something substantive from Jenter.

[ChronX]

Wow, Jenter. The last point is incredibly damning. Good research, I wasn't aware that Kison hadn't voted for either lynched mafia.

The case against you is, you must be a mafia mason. And Guardian had tracked you to the dead guy's house. *rolls eyes* Of course, only Adel and Guardian ever seriously believed the mafia mason theory. It would definitely be Kison's responsibility to prosecute any further case against you. Korlash and I are the jury.

I will give Kison a brief respite to answer Jenter's case, or propose something that we may have missed about Jenter. But the respite will be BRIEF and anything he posts would have to be new and convincing. It is my intention to hammer, soon.

[ChronX]

Here is where I am this morning:

1. Lets not go round and round on semantics. It is clear to me that Kison meant "3rd mafia, not investigation immune".

2. Jenter's point that Kison hadn't voted for a lynched mafia was a strong one until it was refuted. We've blandly accepted his explanation, and again, I'm not going to go round and round about it. But that point, had I acted without waiting for verification and rebuttal, was a lynch-worthy point. So, it can easily be viewed as a gambit. This alone buys Kison additional time in my mind.

3. I am stalled on the "innocent mason" verbiage versus game setup. GF-RB-Mafia Mason vs Cop-Doc. The mason perforce dies night one if the mafia mason knows that the townie half knows that his cohort is mafia. This gives the mafia a safe claim, but the mod gives us a little hint that it isn't so safe. Alternately, if the doc hits 1/11 and protects the mason on the first night, the town mason can out the mafia mason immediately. Is this a balanced setup?

On the other hand, GF-RB-3rd mafia maybe with a lite power vs Cop-Doc-Masons seems pretty balanced.

[ChronX]

OK.

Korlash, I am prepared to hammer Kison if you are in agreement. Conversation seems to be at an end.

The case on Jenter is dependent on believing 2 things: that at LyLo the scum would pull a fake claim bus tactic, and that the set up of this game was GF-RB-Mafia Mason.

The case on Kison would depend on believing: a ploy by Guardian to try to win outright, selling the case that RB-Mafia Mason-unknown scum would be balanced off by Cop-Tracker-Doc-doomed Mason. Kison drags his feet on hammering. Kison dragged his feet on hammering Bookitty. Kison heavily defended IH/Guardian for some ridiculous early game statements (mainly the SK/vig speculation). Kison lurked and post count fluffed his way through most of the game, but was always present when prodded etc. Oh and this:

vanilla.

who am i hammering?

Just seems scummy.

So yeah. I'm about ready to wrap this up.

[ChronX]

OK Korlash has been on the site for a while tonight and didn't voice any objection. I take that as tacit consent to hammer.

Hammer vote and game decider: Kison

[ChronX]

Good game, hooray town. My first "live" win here at MS.

I think Fonz deserves Townie of the Game. The Cop really has to be above and beyond to stand out enough to be the townmember of note, but Fonz played very well. I think his claim was very well timed, and convincing. He also weighed in on important matters with sound logic a few times.

Jenter held up well under the pressure of the mafia-mason accusations. What a bad twist of fate to have lost his masonic brethren before anyone could post anything, and then linger under that cloud of suspicion all game, only to be alive at the end. His early play was a bit scummy, but he settled down and played cool calm and convincing at the end.

Adel's play was really poor in this game, much worse than I've seen out of her elsewhere.

However, Guardian really took the cake. Overly confident in his immunity from investigation I think, he really came across as arrogant and smugly guilty. I meta'd him at some point and he doesn't play like that usually...I understand he was pressed into duty for this game, and maybe he didn't have time to give it his best. Regardless, the claim really made me spotlight his earlier play and then I came back to his mix up over his "results". Poor. He did nearly get it back together enough to sow dissent among the town just by repeating suspcions of everyone over and over...but he really made it hard for Kison to survive today as a result. Shortsighted. I also think someone who mods games on the site should have more class than to talk in twilight in direct opposition to this mod's stated wishes. But hey, in the end justice prevailed.

I would like to make my editorial pitch here that we prevailed despite the brisk pace of the last day. Too much analysis leads to paralysis, people. I would urge you all to play the game somewhere where there are much tighter time limits (2 weeks for day 1 and then a week thereafter works well for global participants)...there are less abandonments, and people have to use their logical skills much more strenuously. You can't allow yourself to fiddle around and give the mafia opportunities to redirect strong cases....as Guardian nearly did. We had him dead to rights, and ended up with 2 townies bashing each other for about a dozen posts. Kison clearly wished for more time in his post-lynch post.

Thanks very much to Elias for running the game and for persevering through the adversity of many abandonments.