Open 45 - Baby Too Much Scum - Game Over! before 506

[Jennar]

Vote: CusiousKarmaDog

If you were a cat it would be even more funny.

-J

[Jennar]

vote: jennar

to see if it'll get him talking

I did post but honestly there hasn't been anything going on in this thread other then random votes and light nudges. In fact I think this is the longest post yet.

-J

[Jennar]

My stands on KarmaDog.

You come and Mneme come off looking like scum who are edging for anything to vote on just to try and get a lynch off. Without a Night phase to off townies in you [n]need[/i] the day lynch to win.

-J

[Jennar]

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

[Jennar]

from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch.

Wait, are you saying that townies should not vote? How do you suppose the day will end?

Guess I forgot the /sarcasm after that.

-Geoff

[Jennar]

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

please quit avoiding my questions..arent you voting for me for the same reason I am voting for menme? If not, please explain why your vote if different.

Its not dodging a question. See it more too bust laughing at you to bother. You voted for Mneme for jumping on some about the random voting but supplied no reason other then his were bad. You come out looking like scum eager for a kill. Townies won't be too worried on day one about a lynch or not. The only night kill we have to fear is the SK.

You are far to eager for a lynch to be town.

-J

[Jennar]

You come and Mneme come off looking like scum who are edging for anything to vote on just to try and get a lynch off.

-J

seems like we are saying the same thing…however, you go a step further and say I come out look like I want a quick kill…why do you feel it necessary to misrepresent me?

I'm not. You gave an out of left field reasoning for your vote. You have nothing to go on a vote for Mneme on other then she went after someone who called the random stage to be useless. then you later say that you did it to spark up some activity. Which is it? You seem to be doing alot of backpeddleing now.

You fail to mention the fact that I removed my vote from someone that had 2 votes and placed it on someone who didn’t have any votes on them. “eager for a lynch”?..hardly.

You moved your vote from someone who had nothing suspicious wise going for them to someone with a more abstract vote. It would be easier to draw attention to Mneme for the way she posted then your previous target that had nothing said about them for a page. You are fishing for a bandwagon.

I removed my vote and placed a vote on mneme to get conversation started (and because I felt her play was strange) Also I note that you have not said anything about flyinghawk, who placed a second vote on mneme. That didn’t look scummy or eager for a quick lynch?…interesting.

It does but your attitude is more suspicious. Here you are trying to divert attention away from you. If you are town you need to put down the shovel as you look more and more like scum each passing second. Why are you so defensive?

unvote
vote Jennar

For poorly misrepresenting me, avoiding questions, and being a hypocrite.

Jennar, how do you feel about flyinghawk? How am I eager for a lynch when I removed my vote off someone who had 2 votes to someone who had none?

Flyinghawk gave more reasons and logic for his change in vote then you did. Where his vote makes sense based upon what Mneme said yours does not. If Mneme is suspicious for voting for someone just to vote for someone then you are more suspicious for voting for someone cus they voted.

My reasoning for voting for you is backed by logic instead of flimsy conjecture. You voted for someone with little reason and got called on it. You suddenly spring to the offensive against me because I did. You attempt to divert attention to Flyinghawk to try and get out of heat. And go so far as to vote for me in an attempt to turn it around.

And if Flyinghawk is so scummy from throwing down with a second vote then why did you vote for me instead of him? If he is as scummy as you claim then what makes me that much worse?

A reason beyond "I'm voting for you cus you voted for me." would be nice. That is all you can seem to come up with though.

-J

[Jennar]

(laughing). Oh, the “why are you so defensive” maneuver. I call you out for your hypocritical vote, I aggressively attack the obvious flaws in your case, and ask you questions…then you label that has “defensive”. I think you have mistaken offensive as defensive.

And yet you still fail to address the main points of my comments. You fail to point out anything having to do with you trying to redirect to flyinghawk. In fact you deliberately avoid the comment.

this looks like a lame excuse "to place a vote for no damn reason"...are you still in the random stage? or was this a serious vote?

Hey look comments out of context. Lets look at what Mneme said.

joost: Play your own game.

Personally? I'm happy to punish people who treat the random stage as a joke.

unvote
vote: bird1111

Unvoting your random just because the game seems to be stalling seems to be some wierd mutation of "unvote for no damn reason".

Morover, the entire attidude -- that there's some hard and fast stage between "random" and "exiting the random stage" when random votes are discounted is both artificial and seems to miss the point of random voting in the first place.

Now you voted for him because you felt it was a lame excuse but then go to ask him if he is still in the random stage or if it is a serious vote. He gave reasoning for his vote against Bird and you wonder if he is just random voting? You are fishing for excuses to go after people. You have now jumped to me because I presented myself as a target.

flyinghawk’s reason:

Why did you vote Bird but not Ckillo, who did the same exact option right above Bird's post? This seems very very odd to me.

Vote:Mneme

He provided more logic? How?

He gave reasoning for his vote. From what I see he finds the reasoning behind Mneme's vote to be odd. See this is providing logic as to why he felt it was odd. You don't even go that far. In your typical fashion for the last few pages you don't actually answer points made against you but instead just redirect and sk more questions.

And your stated reason for leaving your random vote on me was “backed by logic instead of flimsy conjecture.”

You are right Karma, from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch. I at least have something to base my suspicions of a lynch on. Others can choose to believe me or not, thats their choice.

-J

Again more logic? Does anyone else see what I am seeing here?

You thing I have a logical fallacy? You are a walking talking debate fallacy. First non-sequitor arguments against Mneme and not Begging the question arguments against me.

You didn’t call me out on anything, there was little reason for my vote…we were at page 5, there is little reason for every vote on the board. I find you scummy, because you are trying to push a crap logic case and you are having problems admitting when you are wrong.

I stated the point of weakeness in your logic then and now and all you can do is fire back with rhetoric on how far into the game we are. You now find me scummy because I came at you for it. And I now see more then ever that my vote should sit right where it is. You are by far acting more scummy then anyone here.

SO let me get this straight. I remove my vote from someone who has two votes on them to someone who has none, because of a mneme’s odd play. In the process I ask her questions to get conversation started.

You asked questions of Mneme that could be answered if you actually read the post. And as I stated before no one was following the votes on your previous target. you went after someone new to try shift attention to them. And it worked with flyinghawk doing the same. You are very gun-ho for a lynch.

This is evidence to you, that I am more eager for a lynch?? Quit dodging the questions, do you feel flyinghawk is scummy? What are your thoughts on mneme, now?

He if you actually read my post instead of just picking out the parts you like then you might have actually caught the answer to this. I do feel flyinghawk was scummy but not as scummy covered as you.

And hey where are your thoughts on flyinghawk, mneme and Edion? You bob and weave through everything without actually bringing anything new to the table which is a flat out scum tell.

-Jennar

[Jennar]

personal reasons for it: way too aggressive of a case with such little ground to go on. if you're just an aggressive player, admit that you were wrong and the vote will be gone...though i will be watching your actions closely from here on out.

Yes I play offensively when I feel that someone who has a scum tell to their post is not being called on it. And I do not think that I am wrong with CKD so I will not retract it.

-J

[Jennar]

Jen, have a retort coming don’t have the time right now...again you must be skimming over my post or deliberately missing points..

Interested to hear other’s comments as well, seems like people for the most part are just sitting back and letting Jen and I bump heads and go around in circles, waiting to see who will come out on top.

Honestly we'll be at this all day because I feel that you are doing the same to me. All you seem to do is pick the parts that you like to criticize and don't actually read what I am saying.

But whatever. flame on.

-J

[Jennar]

Well your head bumping is pretty interesting. I do however have a question for Jennar:

Where exactly did you say or imply that you thought Flyinghawk was scummy? I've reread your posts and I can't detect where this was implied. In fact it seems like you said Flyinghawk wasn't scummy because he gave a reason for his vote. And does that mean you think CKD and Flyinghawk are scumbuddies?

I removed my vote and placed a vote on mneme to get conversation started (and because I felt her play was strange) Also I note that you have not said anything about flyinghawk, who placed a second vote on mneme. That didn’t look scummy or eager for a quick lynch?…interesting.

It does but your attitude is more suspicious. Here you are trying to divert attention away from you. If you are town you need to put down the shovel as you look more and more like scum each passing second. Why are you so defensive?

First line Joost.

FLyinghawks actions do look slightly scummy but not so much as CKD. I am not willing to rule anyone out of being scum at this point as no one has made case for me to believe otherwise.

I dislike labeling the 'scumbuddy' ideal as it implies that they are openly working together in the forum. One has to assume that Mafia members would put a fair amount of distance from one another to keep from being labeled this way. So I will not pair anyone up like that. It could be that Flyinghawk is just buying into CKD's point of view. without a night it is what the mafia has to do to win.

-J

[Jennar]

Are you going to answer my question at all, Jennar?

I was typing it when you posted. A little patience please.

-J

[Jennar]

:snip:

At this point I don't see the point in us continuing this. You state that I don't read your posts. I don't think you bother to try and understand mine.

I think you are scum. You think I am scum. Everyone gets it.

Would love to hear from others on our debate or anything on others that they would like to discuss.

-J

[Jennar]

A link to the newbie game would help me a lot.

I don't have a game here for you to read sorry. The other forum that I play on deletes the threads as the games end to stop things like this.

-J

[Jennar]

If you need to read up on me check Basically Communist Mafia as I just got day lynched there in an attempt to get some activity going (I was town).

-J

[Jennar]

My stands on KarmaDog.

You come and Mneme come off looking like scum who are edging for anything to vote on just to try and get a lynch off. Without a Night phase to off townies in you [n]need[/i] the day lynch to win.

-J

Why would this be a mafia tell more than a town tell, as town also relies on lynching to win?

The town has time on their side. If 10 days go by without a lynch the town is still in a strong position to win. Each day that goes by without a lynch or town death increases the towns chances of winning. The Mafia need a day lynch to change the status quo. These are the basics of strategy, probability, and understanding of how this game is played.

from now on everyone voting is scum looking for a daytime lynch.

Wait, are you saying that townies should not vote? How do you suppose the day will end?

Guess I forgot the /sarcasm after that.

-Geoff

How was that statement scarcastic?

You can't be serious. How can a statement depicting that anyone who votes during the day being scum not be labeled with sarcasm. Thats like saying "If you post you are scum." If you can't see the sarcasm in that then seek help.

joost: Play your own game.

Personally? I'm happy to punish people who treat the random stage as a joke.

unvote
vote: bird1111

Unvoting your random just because the game seems to be stalling seems to be some wierd mutation of "unvote for no damn reason".

Morover, the entire attidude -- that there's some hard and fast stage between "random" and "exiting the random stage" when random votes are discounted is both artificial and seems to miss the point of random voting in the first place.

Now you voted for him because you felt it was a lame excuse but then go to ask him if he is still in the random stage or if it is a serious vote. He gave reasoning for his vote against Bird and you wonder if he is just random voting? You are fishing for excuses to go after people. You have now jumped to me because I presented myself as a target.

interesting, how exactly did you present yourself as a "target"..usually people who are "targets" have done something scummy, yet you say you havent done anything, I am confused. I have already explained, that there was little reason (I felt the play was strange) behind the vote..it was called pressure...I was called starting conversation..Mneme had one vote on her and you declare that I want to lynch her...can you see how you might be over reacting? Also you avoided another question, you yourself thought mneme was acting scummy, how come it is ok for you to say she is acting scummy, but not for me?..please answer the question this time.

ckd has a point.

Actually he doesn't but I understand since most people don't actually read what I post. I presented myself as a target by actually talking openly and arguing with CKD. The more you post, the more you type, the more there is to pick apart and turn against you. For example, look at Joost. Is it easier to build a case against Joost or me/CKd? Us by far, we have more to quote and twist and spin.

SO let me get this straight. I remove my vote from someone who has two votes on them to someone who has none, because of a mneme’s odd play. In the process I ask her questions to get conversation started.

You asked questions of Mneme that could be answered if you actually read the post. And as I stated before no one was following the votes on your previous target. you went after someone new to try shift attention to them. And it worked with flyinghawk doing the same. You are very gun-ho for a lynch.

My previous target? You are insane. My previous target was a random vote to get conversation started. You are again misrepresenting me. Do you even know who my "previous target" was? This is why I do not think you are even reading this game. because if you were, you would not make ridiculous statements likes this. Every point you have is either crap logic, hypocritical, and just plain wrong. I encourage everyone to check out my "previous target" ON PAGE 1. Joost, post 15 (for your reference).

With the exception of the third to last sentance, I agree with the post.

Lets make sure you understand something. Mafia don't random vote. Period. Every vote goes down with a strategy in mind. Even a dice vote has a reasoning behind it. Constantly claiming that you are 'voting to get conversation started' is a flat cop out. It is political damage control and an easy out for scum. Throwing two votes on Joost on page one to 'generate conversation" is flat crap. When it didn't take and no one followed pressure, Joost didn't blast out on defense, etc. he switched his vote to a new target with crap reasoning to apply more non-existant pressure. It is obvious that you are only reading the parts of this thread and posts that you like and ignoring the blatantly obvious.

This is evidence to you, that I am more eager for a lynch?? Quit dodging the questions, do you feel flyinghawk is scummy? What are your thoughts on mneme, now?

He if you actually read my post instead of just picking out the parts you like then you might have actually caught the answer to this. I do feel flyinghawk was scummy but not as scummy covered as you.

This is a straight out lie. AGAIN, for those reading, this is a lie. the post before my post(80) was post 77, no where in that post does she say Flyhawk is scummy. This is a backtrack upon a lie. PLEASE show me in post 77 where you said anything close to "flyinghawk is scummy"? You actually do the opposite..you defend him. You say his vote made since and he was logical. Again lies and misrepresenting...

Jennar did not infact say that Flyinghawk is scummy in the post.

This is flat proof that you are not reading my posts. I said earlier and quoted my post where I insinuated this that he is lying and digging my posts looking for anything to bring against me. CKD wants me to bust out a crayola and write it down in nice big letters for him to see without actually having to read. This way he could come out and say "you voted for me instead of him you are scummy for doing so!" He is baiting with a loaded question; even though I answered it you both still want to push on this.

Thoughts on posts outside of the argument sometime tommorow, as the argument itself took longer than expected.

Next time please break this down into several posts instead of one. It is annoying trying to figure out where your statements actually are.

-J

[Jennar]

Jennar, you appear to not understand how this game works.

The problem is that I understand this game all too well.

Without -bandwagons- during the day, the town is no better off with a long day than we would be with a short one.

Again, this is not a particularly unusual game in the day. The mafia and SK want to find a quick victim and get the town to help lynch them without revealing too much info; the smart townies want to form bandwagons and use them to find the mafia (and the SK, though that's harder).

In essence a bandwagon is just people jumping on a single individual without much rhyme or reason for doing so. It is an attack for the sake of an attack. By majority the Scum are more likely to jump on Town wagons in an effort to lynch them. Wagons rarely form against scum unless there is a flat out mistake from the Mafia. Since I think we can assume that none of the scum here are that stupid then the purpose and function is relatively defunct.

And you? Seem to be looking for victims, rather than playing the game.

unvote
vote: Jennar

casting around "so and so is quick to lynch" for more or less no reason -is- being quick to lynch; too much of a push, too fast.

I've only labeled one person in that manner so I don't see how you think I am tossing that around. This is the second play you have made that could be considered odd and I am inclined to side with CKD now that you are looking more and more like scum.

-J

[Jennar]

Jennar, you appear to not understand how this game works.

The problem is that I understand this game all too well.

No, you don't. Punk.

Your lack of maturity is astounding.

Without -bandwagons- during the day, the town is no better off with a long day than we would be with a short one.

In essence a bandwagon is just people jumping on a single individual without much rhyme or reason for doing so.

Um, no.

A bandwagon is any sequence of people jumping on the same person.

.....Did you even read what I wrote. You just stated what I said.

By majority the Scum are more likely to jump on Town wagons in an effort to lynch them. Wagons rarely form against scum unless there is a flat out mistake from the Mafia.

And thus you show how much of a punk you are.

If the scum play this way, they will always lose against moderately competent town.

But if they -don't- play this way, they have a better chance of losing one or more of their number to an early bandwagon.

And if they try to jump on bandwagons on scum-mates without being willing to ride those bandwagons to a conclusion, again, they risk exposure.

So we apply circular logic to every wagon? That you have to assume that scum jumped on a wagon against their teammate in order to avoid exposure? And hence each person on that wagon should be evaluated as scum? And if he didn't then what? You are walking into a logical trap.

[/quote]
This is why bandwagons are important; they are how the town gains info -- and thus how the town wins.

Wagons provide little information beyond a base voting history. They should used straws that tip scales into one realm or another not the basis of an argument. Any scum worth half his salt will pay his team mate not difference during day and portray himself as town in every way. You are too busy looking for correlations between individuals to try and draw conclusions which will only get you headway against scum idiots.

Punk.

Idiot.

Unvote
Vote: Mneme

-J

[Jennar]

Without -bandwagons- during the day, the town is no better off with a long day than we would be with a short one.

In essence a bandwagon is just people jumping on a single individual without much rhyme or reason for doing so.

Um, no.

A bandwagon is any sequence of people jumping on the same person.

.....Did you even read what I wrote. You just stated what I said.

This is what gets me the most. There is a BIG and MAJOR difference between what the two of you said. If someone does jump on a bandwagon with 'no rhyme or reason' then perhaps one could look at that as a small scumtell. But generally people jump on to bandwagons because they find something scummy about a person that a bunch of other people find scummy to.
Read more carefully, k.

If you have reasons and logic that has direction to it then you are not bandwagoning. Bandwagoning is jumping on just because the other kids are doing it. Hence why it is described as being without rhyme or reason. Just because it has been an accepted term of another definition here does not change what it actually means.

By majority the Scum are more likely to jump on Town wagons in an effort to lynch them. Wagons rarely form against scum unless there is a flat out mistake from the Mafia.

And thus you show how much of a punk you are.

If the scum play this way, they will always lose against moderately competent town.

But if they -don't- play this way, they have a better chance of losing one or more of their number to an early bandwagon.

And if they try to jump on bandwagons on scum-mates without being willing to ride those bandwagons to a conclusion, again, they risk exposure.

So we apply circular logic to every wagon? That you have to assume that scum jumped on a wagon against their teammate in order to avoid exposure? And hence each person on that wagon should be evaluated as scum? And if he didn't then what? You are walking into a logical trap.

You need to evaluate everyone's reasoning for joining a bandwagon independently. A bandwagon vote can look both pro-town or scummy depending on the reasoning and the timing of the vote. Because of this, at points there can be contradicting logic, but that doesn't make the logic bad.

Logic that contradicts it self is bad. When people don't post anything beyond a vote then you ability to deduce reasoning is practically nullified hence why bandwagons give little to no information.

This is why bandwagons are important; they are how the town gains info -- and thus how the town wins.

Wagons provide little information beyond a base voting history. They should used straws that tip scales into one realm or another not the basis of an argument. Any scum worth half his salt will pay his team mate not difference during day and portray himself as town in every way. You are too busy looking for correlations between individuals to try and draw conclusions which will only get you headway against scum idiots.

I don't understand your first two sentences, but the rest of them I agree with. Saying that two people seem to be working together at a certain point is a far fetched scum tell at best. Good, or even decen, mafia will know well enough that they shouldn't be obviously working together.

Wagon votes only provide voting history. You know where a person cast each vote at what point to influence the overall chain of events. They are not the basis for an argument as they are inherently weak. If someone votes #4 on a 5lynch wagon that is no more scummy then voting #3 on the wagon. All it really means is that person decided earlier to cast his vote. If you are rereading a thread or pondering clues it might take you longer to vote and hence put you farther down on the ladder. All in all wagons provide very little to ones case against a projected scum target. In fact wagons should only be used when weighing two similar subjects that quantify an equal amount of scum. They are the straw that tips the scales, not the means of measure.

My comments are in bold. I dunno, maybe i'm just having a bad day, but this post of Jennar's really irked me. The not reading carefully is a big scum tell.

FOS: Jennar

I'll give him 1 chance to defend himself, then perhaps i'll vote for him.

I will never understand the point of the FOS that is used so widely here.

I have answered your points.

-J

[Jennar]

I don't think posting often or posting a lot means you are presenting yourself as a target per se.

If you post little it gives other less information to twist and spin. You'll notice how CKD avoids answering questions directly and giving direct responses. He never states that he considers people scum only that they have 'odd' or suspicious plays. His ambiguity makes him hard to nail down and to me at least reeks of a scum tell.

A few questions: Did you vote for Mneme because you think he's scum? And if so, is he more scummy than CKD? And if not, why did you vote for him?

I voted Mneme simply because I have no desire to deal with his conformist ideals on how a game should be played only because of precedent and discourse that has been established on this forum.

I still think CKD is scummy but Mneme is causing conflict for the sake of causing conflict and town or no he benefits us none in doing so.

So Joost what are your thoughts on CKD and Mneme?

What do you think about CKD's constant excuse of voting being that he is "trying to generate conversation"?

-J

[Jennar]

I voted Mneme simply because I have no desire to deal with his conformist ideals on how a game should be played only because of precedent and discourse that has been established on this forum.

That sentence is completely and utterly ridiculous. Your saying Mneme is playing LIKE the rules and conversation in previous mafiascum games are played. And that you think thats bad, bad enough that you don't want to play with him.

WHAT??

Perhaps you don't know the actual meanin of the words you used in that sentence, which i hope is the case. Regardless, that is a horrible reason to vote someone. I hope people understand this.

No I am saying I dislike his inability to accept that there is more then one way to play this game. He is so set in his norm of play that he is attacking me based upon the fact that I see this game with a different set of views and a different perspective. It has become obvious that people on this forum dislike people who don't conform to their preset definition of terms and ideals.

Whatever.

-J

[Jennar]

Unvote

At this point I am fed up with dealing with a blind town and Mafia that are good at spin. I don't feel like going through and quoting CKD's posts where he dodges my questions (they are on pages 4 and 6) only to spin rhetoric back at me. Even if I did write a long and useful post he will simply pick apart teh sections he likes and spin them around on me. So lynch me off, go down a town on day one for I simply fail to care anymore.

-J

[Jennar]

Unvote

At this point I am fed up with dealing with a blind town and Mafia that are good at spin. I don't feel like going through and quoting CKD's posts where he dodges my questions (they are on pages 4 and 6) only to spin rhetoric back at me. Even if I did write a long and useful post he will simply pick apart teh sections he likes and spin them around on me. So lynch me off, go down a town on day one for I simply fail to care anymore.

-J

you stated that I avoided your post and that I am constantly stating my votes are to generate conversation.

I want you to back up your comments or are you just putting crap out there, hoping someone will believe it without looking it up..

now please provide the statements or questions I "ignored" so I may answer them and please provide the quote where I said my vote for you is just to generate conversation...

dont avoid them by saying you are tired of dealing with me (does someone else need to ask you?)....if you are not lying and you really believe I am doing these things back them up..

You seem to be under the impression that I care. I don't. I will not post and quote you so that you can retort and twist what I say to solidify your self amongst the town.

Just lynch me and deal with it.

-J

[Jennar]

then why are you playing the game?..ask for a replacement

Becuase I enjoy the game. And why replace me I thought you said I was scum? If you were so convinced then why would you rather replace instead of lynch?

-J

[Jennar]

pretty much I have backed you into wall of lies that you have surrounded yourself with...now, that i have done that, you say "you dont care"..if you really dont care..leave, let Theo find someone that really wants to play..or you can answer my questions..

AGAIN,

you want everyone here to believe I am scummy, so prove it..what questions or posts did I avoid or ignore?...where did I state that my vote on you was to "generate conversation"

I was mistaken about your vote on me but your previous two votes did say that. And in no terms did I lie, you did avoid my questions by sating vague responses and turning them back on me with more questions. I drew conclusions about you that you don't feel are accurate. It's not that I don't care about the game I simply don't care to argue with you when we obviously consider two entirely different things to be scum tells.

The rest of the town obviously believes you and I salute you on a job well done, you have turned the town against one of their own.

But why are you so concerned? I am scum remember, as you have stated before. You should be less concerned about replacing me and more concerned on getting those final few votes on me.

-J

[Jennar]

she obviously cares enough to stay...
[/qupte]

Becuase I want the townies to see that you are wrong.

confirm vote jennar

, for lies, avoiding questions, crap logic, taking things out of context then twisting them, refusing to help the town, and now recently stating "she doesnt care" when she obviously does for an appeal to emotion...

Hi pot, I'm kettle.

she is obviously scum

Obviously.

-J

[Jennar]

you stated you didnt care, I want someone here that wants to play..so get a replacement. I think you really care and wanted an feeble excuse not to address my questions...that is because you know I am right and I have caught you in a misrepresentation. I am calling you out, if you really "dont care" then leave...

I do care about the game you just don't seem to be reading which is not uncommon seeing as how you have skimmed my posts in the past. But the town needs to see you for what you are. Mafia leading the town to a day time mislynch.

now you back pedal, fine..you were "mistaken".

You did the same in post #84. So I am back pedaling and you are not. Now who's the hypocrite.

now please post a quote I ignored...

In post #91 I asked you of your opinions of the other players. You dodged this question with a response that you will answer it later but then you don't. We both know you didn't forget because you don't dodge questions.

The second instance wasn't you and I'm sorry that I thought it was. But thats not the point and is me just doing damage control right?

-J

[Jennar]

In post #91 I asked you of your opinions of the other players. You dodged this question with a response that you will answer it later but then you don't. We both know you didn't forget because you don't dodge questions.

The second instance wasn't you and I'm sorry that I thought it was. But thats not the point and is me just doing damage control right?

-J

is this the only question I avoided that you have based I am scum on? BTW, if you think I am scum, why is your vote not on me?

Because honestly I am not that sure anymore. To me your acts look very scummy but after reading several other games here to try and get on your side of the fence on how you guys play this game I realize that we come from very different worlds on what a scum tell is.

I still think your rhetoric and attack does seem very scummy for a nightless game but I can understand why once I look at it from your perspective.

I simply forgot to answer it wasn’t a dodge, why did it take you so long to point that out to me?

Because it looked deliberate and I didn't want to give you a chance to spin it, which is what you just did.

You have made it sound like I have dodged numerous questions. . .

I already stated I was mistaken on the second point, where it was joost I was replying to instead of you. We had been argueing for so long that I mistook it for you.

. . .and am constantly twisting your words...which is untrue…which is why I think you are scummy….

If you look at it from my perspective it does look like you are twisting and spinning my comments. Just as from your perspective it looks like I am misrepresenting you by basing all your motives on the fact that you are scum, which may or may not be correct.

…care to do the same?

Indeed, I will.

-J

[Jennar]

As requested by CKD:

Ckillor

Out of the last 7 pages he has posted very little to point of flat lurking. Hi sposts have had little relevance upon any current arguements and he seems to be posting just to say he is posting. This is what I've come to call "Shading" posting enough just to get by. He is involved with at least 4 other games where he has been present and very active and attentive to what is going on. This in contrary to his participation here.

From where I have played lurking would generally be considered a scum tell.

Edion0

Edion0 claims to have gotten a new job that is keeping him busy and away from posting. Regardless this should be overly weighed upon as town or scum in nature IMO. He avoids CKD's request for comment on the game thus far and prior to that does serious backpedaling when jumped on for his vote on me. He is also posted as being willing to flip flop easily (as pointed out by Bird111).

Edion0's overall performance so far and general lack of presence anywhere makes it hard to read him. I'm not willing to say he's town nor am I willing to toss him in the fire with what we have.

Bird1111

Beyond the extensively long post about mine and CKD's argument Dib111 has had very little to say. He has been active in other sections of the forum though. He still has yet to post any thoughts on comments made outside of mine and CKD's argument as he stated he would.

Again not a lot here to judge. He makes good points when he does post but does little otherwise.

flyinghawk

While he has posted more then most the majority of his concentration has been on me and not on anyone else. He has also been doing an extensive amount of damage control concerning his early vote to put Mneme at 2. He also stated that I would only have one chance to defend myself before I got a vote though he did not respond when I posted my response to him. He is either following CKD's lead (by focusing on me) and staying under the radar or simply lurking except when called out.

Based upon his action I would consider Flyinghawk's actions somewhat scummy and I feel he needs to step up an participate some. Mostly I would like to know more about what he thinks about that back half of the argument between me and CKD.

Mneme

I generally dislike Ad hominem attempts at debate, and general conformity. He does not like that I do not see this game as other members of this board would and wants me to be observant of the precedents that have come forth on this board. To me it seems he wants us to stick to a single line of what a sum tell is and what a scum tells isn't. The only reason I can see behind this is that he wants to have a set of guidelines to fit in so the mafia can use them to blend into the town. He also doesn't completely read posts from what I see. In one case he stats that I contradict myself but when you read what I wrote you can see that the statements I made were questions of fact upon how the logic he proposed would work. The latter of the two statement he quoted was on how I think the mafia should play and had nothing to do with the other quote. To me this is very suspicious.

Joost

Joost can't seem to make up his mind. In some cases he sites me as being scummy but then retract by saying the he thinks that neither me nor CKD is scummy only to reverse his decision again. He his sure that I am Mafia though earlier he states that he thinks that both me and CKD are town and his major suspicions lie with Edion0. He has contributed much though and has been spot on about responding to questions.

Overall I am on the fence about Joost. He does several things that are scum tells to me (flip flopping quickly with little explanation) but on the other hand seems to be actively looking for scum. I would like to know what he thinks of things since he last posted.

I believe that is everyone. If I missed someone please say so and I'll reexamine their line.

-J

[Jennar]

Welcome White.

-J

[Jennar]

Jennar, I do dislike your style, but mostly because it involves avoiding any past history or method for the game and -also- seems intent on punishing people for playing the game with commitment. Basically, you seem intent on attacking people for playing like town and ignoring people who play like scum -- which seems unlikely to work; moreover, you back up this dubious method with dubious logic. The fact that you ignore language as it makes sense (ie, using the terminology people mean rather than some spurious "ideal" of language, ie, trying to imply that what a dictionary says about a "bandwagon" has any relevance when interpreting what people on Mafiascum say when they talk about "bandwagons") doesn't make you a better person or player, it just makes you look like an idiot.

That's not, however, why I'm voting for you; I'm voting for you because in defense of your ideas, you wiggle like a snake, contradicting yourself and posting craplogic -- very much a scum tell by any method. In general, I -prefer- games that come down to vote analysis, because I find a result or lynch based on same to be very satisfying (see, say, Fire and Ice mafia in Little Italy, which consisted of a perfect game; four scum, four scum lynches, with a fair amount of vote analysis informing them. But really, the methods that feed vote analysis also leave a nice trail for other forms of analysis -- which is why votes, genuine votes, and multiple real bandwagons during a day are important indicators of town success. I'm also voting you because your -application- of your method seems to be to attack people for doing reasonable things, ie, vote/attack people, which is what the town has to do in this game to win. The town can't win the game by sitting back, letting the mafia attack people, and then lynch them; it just doesn't work that way--so assuming the first people to attack anyone are the most likely to be mafia is simply wrong-headed (and smacks of scapegoating, which -is- a mafia strategy).

I appreciate the time you took into writing that as it address much of the confusion and conflict involving my position in this game. In the future (whether it be in this game or not) I will be more aware of this. Please understand that I am used to a

very

different pretense and strategy when it comes to this game.

I am not however asking you to change your vote or trying to wiggle out from under the looking glass. If you believe I am suspicious or have given a scum tell then please let your vote stand.

-J

[Jennar]

Jennar's retaliation is just terrible though. Jennar, have you played a few newbie games? (not intended to be an insult).

Here no but but as a matter of discourse I signed up in the newbie cue just to brush up on how you guys play here. I have however played in well over 20 games both live and on another site.

-J

[Jennar]

Jennar, you know how I feel about you. I don't like what i've seen but don't want to hammer a townie (especially in a game setup like this). Claim.

I know how much you love claims but at this time I am not going to. CKD promised a run down of each person like the rest of us have. He stated 48 hours and it has been much longer then that.

I will claim for you when he posts his run down.

-Geoff

[Jennar]

Jennar, you know how I feel about you. I don't like what i've seen but don't want to hammer a townie (especially in a game setup like this). Claim.

I know how much you love claims but at this time I am not going to. CKD promised a run down of each person like the rest of us have. He stated 48 hours and it has been much longer then that.

I will claim for you when he posts his run down.

-Geoff

please read the game thoroughly...or at least read post 198

Sorry didn't see it there.

Oh and I'm the FBI Agent. Enjoy.

-J

[Jennar]

p
Jennar, would love to hear your thoughts at this point.

I'll take this from a neutral stand point to give you guys an overall on how I look at it.

If I am scum, faking it

If this is true then I knew I was dead anyways. I claim FBI to try and not only flush out the real FBI but give the SK a target. I then judge reactions to see if I can find an SK tell. As Mafia my main enemy is the SK who has a night kill power where I do not. Finding the SK early is in the Mafia's best interest as that eliminates the wild card of the SK killing a Mafia during night.

Even on a FBI counterclaim I still gain knowledge that helps to the death of the SK. Either by the actual FBI's death that night or the towns lynching of the SK. Considering the general consensus against me its Win/Win.

If I am Town

I'm dead anyways. The SK will kill me and remove his greatest threat. The main point I provide is to give new direction to the town by allowing them to focus on someone else day one instead of me. Hopefully this will aid in the town either finding the SK or Mafia.

If the SK doesn't kill me tonight then they are simply trying to mark me off as Mafia posing as FBI. While killing me would prove my innocence letting me live would only aid in me narrowing the field of suspects.

Still Win/Win.

I'm still evaluating the two replacements and don't have anything really to contribute about them at this time.

-J

[Jennar]

. . .or even jennar.

The majority of my suspicion still resides on Flynighawk. Mneme has not posted enough for me to get a better evaluation of his actions though I still don't consider him anywhere being a pro-town player right now.

As for Mookeh I think he is either a very clever scum player acting the newb effectively or really just a newbie. There are chinks in his armor that I am seeing though nothing to really pressure on right now. If the trend continues I will point it out and lean on it some. i won't bring specific notice to it right now because I don't want to see the behavior corrected before it has a chance to repeat.

As for white I think it is apparent the reasons why a mafia would not want to hammer even though it would be justified to the town.

Usually

the beginning and ending of a lynch vote are places that Mafia do not want to be. Good players can get around this but as default they are not strong positions to defend. Despite this I have my reservations about him.

Vote: Flyinghawk

is as of right now the only person I feel comfortable throwing this on. He has been quick to divert attention away from himself by trying to shift it to Mookeh. He also seems more concentrated on proving his innocence instead of actively hunting scum.

You do something that also intrigues me CKD. In post 271 you give a game breakdown yet in all scenarios you conveniently leave yourself out. While this may be seen that you are trying to place yourself as an innocent it also a useful tool of scum to plant the seed in the others players mind that you are town. Seeing that if they refer to your model they will never see your name on the suspicions list. It is a curiosity and nothing more however and doesn't overly change my evaluation of you.

-J

[Jennar]

question for Jennar, do you think that Flyinghawk is the SK?

Not really though it is possible. I think FH is just plain scum.

-J

[Jennar]

I apologize for my absence. RL problems of a dramatic nature and beyond my control have otherwise occupied my time.

I have already chosen a target for investigation. I will not say who however. The main reason being that if I get it right the first go out and claim it that I will be dead tonight hands down. If I get it wrong it opens a door of massive WIFOM crap. Basically it means that by not claiming my target today then I will at least have a slight chance of survival.

As for my lying, etc it is just a complete coin flip on the logic that you could talk yourself in circles about so there is really no point to it..

-J

[Jennar]

I am sorry but I will need to be replaced in this game. I am being admitted to the hospital for about three weeks for surgery and will not be able to check the thread. I apologize for the delay I have caused.Good luck with the game guys.

-J

[Jennar]

Come back just in time to see my suspicions were right. Mneme, CKD and FH were scum. Grats on teh good play guys.

-J

[Jennar]

Jenner: er, what?

Sorry, missed the Sk kill. Had you pegged for it though.

-J