Mini 1755: Game Over

[UpTooLate]

Hola. I'm UpTooLate and I'm literally always up too late. Anyway, I'm glad to see there has been some good conversation going on. Pisskop, can we get more than:

This game is dumb. AI is dumb. I have never seen such an overbearing attempt to get me to ???

P.Edit. I'm with Keyser, why don't you replace out? You haven't contributed anything of substance but are complaining? Or are you just complaining because you're in a game with Keyser and AI? Or...?

[UpTooLate]

why would I?

vote: pisskop

Like I dont even care about this game

You're right. I have no idea why I thought you might want to get out of a game you don't even care about to open the slot for someone who will. Silly me.

[UpTooLate]

Let’s talk about this wagon on PK. Burning and Ras voted him in RVS, then AI jumps on the wagon, changing his vote from Ircher to PK “because he’s scum.” He later lists his reasons, where Keyser “feels like sheeping this” and jumps on too, at which point PK just gives up and selfvotes putting himself at L-2 because he doesn’t care and this game is dumb. Ircher now wants to lynch him based on his poor attitude (but isn’t doing anything about it?).

AI’s reasons for voting him aren’t bad. PK has been at him with nothing of substance, with no sense of real intent. Unless, of course, he was just trying to see what reaction he could get out of the guy that, at the time, wasn’t really contributing much either. If that’s the case, it worked. He definitely got a reaction.

What’s really bothering me is the selfvote. He says he doesn’t care about this game, and yet, he doesn’t want to let somebody who does sub in for him. At this point, we’re put in a crappy situation. If we Policy Lynch like Ircher is suggesting, he may flip town and we’re already down on day 1, which isn't a good start. If we don’t and he survives the night, he may just continue with his current level of participation (or lack thereof) and draining attitude.

I guess what I want to know, PK, is what exactly is your intent with the selfvote?

[UpTooLate]

@UTL hey there. good to see you back.
Are you the same alignment as me this time?

Hello again! I hope so, I'd rather have you on my side than not.

[UpTooLate]

Im more than willing to lose to prove my point.

What exactly is your point?

[UpTooLate]

Townreading Heat and UTL at this point.

Why?

Was going to ask the same thing.

[UpTooLate]

Just had a chance to skim in the car, will post more later. Did you guys happen to check out the first link in PK's sig? My phone won't let me paste the contents, but I found it interesting considering his current behavior.

[UpTooLate]

Sorry I didn't get a chance to post yesterday, things got busy. Anywho. AI, I was going to ask you yesterday why you had me leaning more town, but now I'd also like to know why such the drastic change in read in a single day?

I dislike Ras' townread on me with no explanation. I also dislike his lack of content in the few posts he's written. More please?

Performer is a town lean for me. His behavior is consistent with what I know town Performer to be, but I'd like to see more since I'm not huge on pure meta reads on people.

I understand Ircher's want to PL Pisskop, but I don't like his unwillingness to do something about it. I get that he might be unsure if he actually reads scum or not, however I feel like getting us all to agree to a PL is a great way to get a lynch and a way out of suspicion if PK were to flip town. I do like his response to Heat's thoughts on him, seemed rational.

Heat wants to know about AI's read list and reasons for it, but isn't giving one himself. Actually, he's only responded to Keyser's reads after Keyser directly asked him about it when trying to get him to engage more. After that he only says he doesn't like Ras because of questionable town read, and then we get nothing else. Do you have opinions on anybody else in the game? Would you like to give us your reads and explanations for them?

I like Keyser for town. He asks proactive questions, and actively tries to engage people (Heat, PK). I really like his interactions with PK. They're more productive than most people's have been, as he's not just feeding into PK's bad attitude.

I believe Pisskop is just fishing for reactions tbh. The following is in PK's sig:

Taking the piss out of the First Day
Taking the piss - an expression meaning to mock, tease, ridicule, or scoff. most widely used in the United Kingdom, Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.


The purpose of this guide:

Create a challenge for players
Teach early combat tips and techniques
Prioritize how to obtain basic needs under pressure
Explain to quickly reach a state of self-sufficiency and reach mid-game.
Highlight the value of Preventative Maintainance, which in game-terms is primarily tailoring and mechanics.

I'm null on his behavior based on this. I feel like this is exactly what he's doing to see what reactions he gets, which becomes obvious here:

@Pisskop
You talking to me?

The suggestion of PLing someone has nothing to do with if they're scum or not. It's more of "This person is a troll who is making the game extremely unpleasant." It has nothing to do with right or wrong.

Yea. I had hoped it was obvious enough even you could pick up on it?

Its about reactions. You going to walk into more of those setups?

He's intentionally being obnoxious and annoying to get reactions and it's working.

With that I'd like to see more from massive, axle, and demus.

P. edit, welcome Boonskiies!

[UpTooLate]

uptolate (weird style)

scum

Could you elaborate please?

[UpTooLate]

dont like this on gut
it feels like

trying to overthink to look town
like talking and all is good but
i just dont see anything valuable about the pk wagon to analyze this early

Ok. Wondered if there was something more. Thanks.

[UpTooLate]

I am of the opinion that Pisskop is town by this point. He would have to be either very brave or very stupid to behave as he has as scum.

Therefore, I shall post-pone my policy lynch suggetion to a later day where Pisskop's behavior may kill us.

So you think he's town, but you still want to lynch him later on?

[UpTooLate]

UTL, what do you think about AI?

I was a little turned off by his tunnel on PK, simply because I feel like he's feeding right into PK's obnoxious game. However, it seems like he's trying to engage with him more now, instead of just poke at him, which I like. He's asked people who aren't really giving much out about their reads, including you. I really don't see anything scummy with him wanting to hear from you before explaining his reads, as at that point you really hadn't given much. Has to be a give and take, ya know? Overall, I'm leaning town on him.

(I'd still like to know about his flip flop on me.)


Heat, might I ask why you like me for town?

[UpTooLate]

heat why dont you think irchers scumminess
comes from being inexperienced?

If I'm not mistaken Ircher and I have about the same experience, and you have me read as scum.

[UpTooLate]

@Performer I've played a few games on Tumblr with a slightly different format (the biggest difference being shorter days and nights) and Town of Salem. Like I said, nothing of this caliber.

Well, I have only played one game

here

so far. The details are in my sig.

I assumed if he hadn't played games elsewhere, the word "here" would not have been included. Either way, was just wondering if you had different reasoning as to why my style is "weird" to you.

[UpTooLate]

but you did say 'irchir and i have about the same experience'
just a moment ago

I did. I'm not sure how you mean this, tbh. Let's put it this way, as far as I'm aware, on this site, we have about the same amount of experience, which regarding the wording in his post ("one game here so far"), is what I thought we were talking about.

[UpTooLate]

Reading through ISO's. Something in Ircher's just bugs me.

111

I would jump on Pisskop's wagon for his very pooor conduct except he's at L-2 right now... Still, maybe we should policy lynch him?

115

I think he would deserve a Policy Lynch, but as I stated, I'm not jumping on the wagon because there is a good chance I'm wrong and pisskop is just being stubborn.

234

I am suggesting PL Pisskop.

He isn't contributing much and refuses to be civil or make decent, constructive posts. Instead, he keeps trolling everyone and making the game unpleasant. If he doesn't get replaced, I strongly sugges Policy Lynching him.

279

Personally, I'm thinking the

most likely scum canidates are

: Book (who replaced Burning Earth), Lilac, Ras, Heat, and

Pisskop

.

Then in 350 (2 of his posts later):

I am of the opinion that Pisskop is town by this point.

He would have to be either very brave or very stupid to behave as he has as scum.

Pushes for a PL over and over and over again, but doesn't want to be the one to do it. Nobody else is on board with him, so he jumps ship to Droog.

The rest of his posts just aren't convincing, and he doesn't seem solid on his reads

(seems like he could be easily swayed)

. I don't like this.

VOTE: Ircher

[UpTooLate]

My attention has shifted to UpTooLate and Heat now. I am pretty sure at least one of them is scum. Both are highly opportunistic.

Can you please explain how I'm opportunistic?

[UpTooLate]

Ircher,

I don't like early lynches either. The point was that you spent all that time pushing a PL, even though nobody else agreed, and

wouldn't do anything about it.

If you want a lynch that bad, show some initiative and take the plunge. Don't sit there and keep requesting a PL hoping someone will jump on that train with you so you have a legit excuse if he flips town.

I understand that a PL isn't alignment related. That had nothing to do with my point. You specifically said that you thought Pisskop was scum, and 2 posts later when nobody was on your PL PK train, you said you thought he was town and dropped the PL (for now?).

Later, you state your scum reads, but the way you did it seemed more like you were testing the waters to see if people were going to go along with them, rather than being confident in them yourself. Why should I feel comfortable with your reads if you don't seem like you are yourself?

[UpTooLate]

In my last game with Ircher, where he was town, we talked a lot about policy lynches (e.g., when someone self-voted). This might have influenced his view on policy lynches. Just saying.

Noted.

[UpTooLate]

I have had a busy day, and having people over tonight. Going to catch up tomorrow.

[UpTooLate]

@UTL I may have missed it but what's your read on AI , for pushing on your demise? You voted Ircher instead of AI.

You know, I really don’t get his vote on me. He says I’m opportunistic, but I don’t get how. If that were the case, there are a couple of wagons I could have jumped on, but didn’t, because I wasn’t 100% comfortable with them. I reread some things, and decided to see if I could get a reaction out of him as to maybe lend some insight into his thought process. He has been defending Ircher all game, no great reasons why. So, I decided to put pressure on Ircher to see 1) how he would react and 2) if he would give any more insight as to why he’s so sure Ircher is town.

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon. No real insight here. But then we get this:

The town-Ircher I know from Newbie 1666 is extremely open about his views, even when they are sometimes contradictory, or controversial.

I know this, because I was the scum framing him for his mistakes. We lynched Ircher in LYLO and won the game. I am not going to let that happen now that I am town.

I have not seen Ircher's scum game before. There is always a slim chance that I am wrong. However, I would expect scum-Ircher to be much more cautious than this. I think scum-Ircher would be easy to spot by being much less transparent, but that is just a guess.

Though it doesn’t help me figure out why he was voting me, it does give a little insight as to why he’s so hell bent on protecting Ircher. There were things that bugged me in Ircher's ISO, but after reading his case on Droog, he moves a up a little for me, mostly because it seems to come from a genuine place. By that logic, if Ircher moves up for me, AI is around there as well for his fight for Ircher, though his posts make me feel otherwise.

And since my vote on Ircher was more for reactions:

UNVOTE: Ircher.

VOTE: Heat

Nothing you've said has made me think "town." I know you've been V/LA, but even before then, there were only a few posts with meat in them, but a lot of one or two line posts that didn't really give me anything.

All that being said, I apologize for my lack of activity. Things got busy this week but I should be more active.

[UpTooLate]

And since my vote on Ircher was more for reactions:

UNVOTE: Ircher

Spoiler: This vote does not look like a reaction test to me

Pushes for a PL over and over and over again, but doesn't want to be the one to do it. Nobody else is on board with him, so he jumps ship to Droog.

The rest of his posts just aren't convincing, and he doesn't seem solid on his reads

(seems like he could be easily swayed)

. I don't like this.

VOTE: Ircher

Later, you state your scum reads, but the way you did it seemed more like you were testing the waters to see if people were going to go along with them, rather than being confident in them yourself. Why should I feel comfortable with your reads if you don't seem like you are yourself?

I felt like you were saying he was scum because he was 1) pushing a policy lynch over a scum lynch 2) opportunistic voting 3) insincere reads 4) unconvincing thought process 5) bandwagon mentality.

What's your current position of the behaviour you highlighted?

My vote was built off of something that did actually bug me, and I also wanted him to speak on those points (I should have clarified that more in my last post, my apologies). The main reason the whole thing bugged me is how many times he pushed the PL and but was not willing to show any action. This bothered me because I felt like it would have been an easy out if PK flipped town and his wagon was analyzed. “He had a bad attitude, it was reason to policy lynch.” Had he have only mentioned it once or twice, I wouldn’t have thought anything of it, but it was his persistence that caught my eye. However, AI explained that PLs were a topic that was talked about a lot in their last game, so I can see why that was fresh on his mind.

As far as the feeling he could be easily swayed, 466 #3 along with his case on droog (which, again, I found came from a genuine place) and the details in his read lists since then, I feel differently about it.

[UpTooLate]

Jeez UTL, did you roll scum again? And no Keysor, I never did answer that. I'll answer in a sec.
gotta make myself some food

Was I town until I put pressure on you?

[UpTooLate]

Townreading Heat and UTL at this point.

Heat I think is more town than UTL, but are any of these reads challenged or explained?

I'm going to flag this again:

I also don't like Ras. I've barely done anything to deserve a townread. It's come out way too quickly.

How/why did Raskolnikov have a town-read of Heat by post 194?

These were asked earlier and answered earlier (320 391). At this point that was a very long time ago, since then Heat's the same but UTL's more scummy. 440 and particularly the reasons she voted heat are garbage, scumreading someone who was V/LA for low content combined with a vague "my gut doesn't like her".

I explained the Ircher thing here, which you should have read if you saw my vote on Heat, and here. And are you sure you're not just a little sensitive to the inactivity topic? Also, I specifically said his posts

before

he went on V/LA were lacking.

[UpTooLate]

I explained the Ircher thing ...

Your post appears to be phrased as if its answering a question. is it?
What is the question?

What is the post in response to?

At this point that was a very long time ago, since then Heat's the same but

UTL's more scummy. 440

and particularly the reasons she voted heat are garbage, scumreading someone who was V/LA for low content combined with a vague "my gut doesn't like her".

[UpTooLate]

Whoops, 676 was the post I was referring to not 440.

That's a pretty big post difference for a mistake. Fine. I'll bite. Anything you'd like me to elaborate on?

[UpTooLate]

That's a pretty big post difference for a mistake.

If you read it it's incredibly obvious I was referring to the post that is actually 676.

Anything you'd like me to elaborate on?

Asking you to elaborate would imply there was anything of substance there to begin with.

As far as I can tell you vote Heat on posting little while he's been V/LA and for having a bad feeling about her and I doubt you'll be able to explain otherwise at this point.

I already answered this. If you want to ask me questions, fantastic. But make sure I didn't JUST address it. Thanks

If there is something I'd like you to go into more detail about, it would be your "reaction test" on Ircher. 686 doesn't do it for me. I want to know in your words what reaction you expected, what you got, and how your read changed based on it.

To be clear, I wanted AI's reaction, and he continued defending Ircher like I thought he would. I had wondered if I had said something about Ircher that bothered him considering he has been team Ircher all damn game, and I wanted to see if a vote on Ircher would maybe get something more from AI, which it didn't, and I still don't understand it. I said I wanted Ircher to speak on the points I made against him, which he did. You've already read my thoughts on that.

In your 676 you say Ircher moves up for his case on droog and "AI is around there as well", where exactly is this? I expect more considering your very focus this game was supposedly on getting reactions just to build up these two reads.

You're right. I should clarify a little more. I had originally had a town lean on AI, but I thought more about it, and the fact that he won't answer questions is off putting, as is his defense for someone from pretty much the beginning who he shouldn't "know" is town. So I had moved him down to a scum lean, along with Ircher by association. As for your question, I had moved them to a null town. But this recently caught my eye caught my eye:

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective):
Ircher - Role PM

Likely Town

Keysör - He's V/LA and he had a great start

Leaning Town

Pisskop - His behavior is bound to attract unnecessary attn. Very suicidal as scum.
Performer - Nothing notably scummy about him. Seems to be trying.
Axle - I liked his early interactions. Maybe I'm mistaken, but he seems to have disappeared.

Neutral

AI - My gut says he town, yet he doesn't seem to be contributing a lot of content. His read lists at least are helpful.
Golden - Deus replaced out; haven't really seen much from this slot
Heat - I've seen good and bad things from him.

Leaning Scum

Massive - He needs to contribute a lot more. He doesn't seem engaged in the game.
UpTooLate - Also needs to contribute more. He seems more engaged than Massive tho.

Likely Scum

Ras - I like how he decides to stop contributing when a wagon was formed on him. I also strongly dislike his entrance.
Boon - He needs to contribute a lot more. His slot has already replaced once and he reminds me of Njac (who was scum) in Newbie 1666.
Droog - I was a bit more confident with my read earlier. Still think he's scum, very poor entrance imo, and seems to not execute his own advice. Still, he seems like he's trying, so I'll give him that.

AI disagrees with lynching Droog. I can see a possibility for Droog to be town, even with my doubts. So, I'm thinking that since Boon has decided to not contribute (at all) to our discussions, we should lynch Boon.

VOTE: Boon

Sure, let's pressure Boon.

VOTE: Boon

Why does it matter if AI disagrees with lynching Droog? And AI follows Ircher's Boon vote 2 posts later? Ircher's read notes on AI in 662 are interesting too. I can't tell if that's town getting genuinely frustrated or scum trying to distance himself from his partner (though I agree with the sentiment).

[UpTooLate]

Oh! If you're answering questions on calling people opportunistic, mind telling me how I have been?

[UpTooLate]

To be clear, I wanted AI's reaction, and he continued defending Ircher like I thought he would. I had wondered if I had said something about Ircher that bothered him considering he has been team Ircher all damn game, and I wanted to see if a vote on Ircher would maybe get something more from AI, which it didn't, and I still don't understand it. I said I wanted Ircher to speak on the points I made against him, which he did.

I'm sorry UpTooLate but I'm still not seeing the town-thought-process behind your method/explanation. If you want to sort/test/pressure AlwaysInnocent you vote for him and engage him directly. I do not understand why you voted Ircher (for a reaction test? I'm not seeing it). I feel like you have added a manufactured thought-process AFTER your actions.

Scum lean

A vote on AI wouldn't have gotten me anything but an accusation of OMGUS. He's so far refused to answer why I'm opportunistic, and me voting for him isn't going to make him talk. I applied the same logic as I do with my children. If I think they're up to something and I want information, I threaten something near and dear to them. In this case, it was Ircher.

[UpTooLate]

@Raskolnikov - what is your read of UpToLate? (If you haven't already shared it).

I liked her earlygame but her vote on Heat was garbage and I don't like her response to my questions in 737. It's hard to feel sure because her content is really low, which now that I think about it isn't good to see near deadline; and she isn't pushing her vote at all. I sort of forgot about her with the deadline and my wagon looming.

I'd settle for her or droog since axle isn't going anywhere.

You're right, I haven't pushed it. Was hoping to get more out of him tbh.

did a skim of rask's iso
its not great but nothing screams scummy
can someoe make the case again

I do agree with droog, I haven't had anything scream scum at me from him.

I'd still be more comfortable with an Ircher lynch tbh. Or even AI.

[UpTooLate]

A vote on AI wouldn't have gotten me anything but an accusation of OMGUS.

I don't know, a vote on scum is a vote on scum in the end. If your scum read is strong, I'm sure you could have rode that OMGUS wave.

He's so far refused to answer why I'm opportunistic, and me voting for him isn't going to make him talk. I applied the same logic as I do with my children. If I think they're up to something and I want information, I threaten something near and dear to them. In this case, it was Ircher.

That scenario only works if Ircher is scum. Why would scum-AlwaysInnocent be worried about town-Ircher? ("dear to them").

I feel like you are entrenched in this pre-flip AlwaysInnocent-Ircher scum team bias I could see one of them being scum through their interactions -

but both?

I took a nap and thought on this, and you’ve brought up a good point. I do think I’ve gotten myself tunneled on that association, and when thinking back on it, it really is mostly one sided. AI’s “defense” of Ircher has rubbed me the wrong way simply because it lacks anything tangible and Ircher got dragged into it by association. I'll look at this again.

[UpTooLate]

@Ircher, I'll read all of that when I'm done nursing this hangover. Just looking at all that text made my headache worse. I do find it weird he was the NK though.

@massive, that's an interesting point. I didn't think about it that way.

[UpTooLate]

After looking over AI’s posts about scumreading UTL,

You mean when he kept throwing around "opportunistic" and never once explained why?

[UpTooLate]

I'm rereading, I'll try to get a post up tomorrow.

[UpTooLate]

performer is scum because hes following his scum meta. But if the poor attempt to read performer is what will get votes then good too

He is playing a little differently than my last game with him when he was town.

You're saying scum Ircher killed AI, despite AI hard defending Ircher? Wouldn't scum Ircher want to leave AI alive as long as possible, for AI to keep defending him?

Or maybe he was worried about AI looking scummier and scummier and the associations they had with each other?

After looking over AI’s posts about scumreading UTL,

You mean when he kept throwing around "opportunistic" and never once explained why?

Based on his advancing reads lists in d1, particularly his reads list 1.4 on scumreading Heat/UTL/pk, I have a theory that he was offed because he was on the right track.

After rereading, he seemed to flip his thoughts on me after I mentioned PK's sig and correlation with his current play. At the time he was scum reading PK, and when asked by Keyser if it was a pre-flip associative tell, he said "Partly, yes." After that I was just opportunistic with no explanation behind it.

keyseys posts are fun to read
easily still my top townread

I agree on both accounts. I like D1 turned into a story.

Scum sees an opportunity to get me mislynched. They try to get me lynched but cannot because AI is around (they would def. need AI's support if they are gonna get a lynch on me). Therefore, they NK AI to remove the impediment in getting a mislynch accomplished.

Why would they “def.” need AI’s support to get a lynch on you?

Keyser, Axle

Pisskop,Droog
Massive, Boon

Golden, Heat,

Performer, Ircher

[UpTooLate]

Performer, Ircher

Can you show me

scum-Ircher

. He's currently in my comfortable pile.

Also, did AlwaysInnocent's town-flip affect your understanding of the pre-flip associative-tells between him and Ircher?

I'm scum reading Ircher because I feel like he's pulling any tiny excuse out of anything he sees to try to see if someone else picks up on it. If I remember correctly from his "D1 notes" he considered a quip from droog (?) scummy. Just anything he can find to see if it'll stick.

Massive's point about letting AI hard defend him like that also gave me bad vibes. Why did Ircher let AI defend him like that all of day one? I don't remember seeing him question it even once. Towards the end, I do recall him asking him to stop evading questions and such, as it was making him look bad by association, but that's all I can remember. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

To be honest, I just haven't gotten great vibes from Ircher this whole game.

[UpTooLate]

Because I'm not sure if I like him or Performer more yet.

[UpTooLate]

Spoiler: Game Notes - N1

1. In post 7 by AxleGreaser, we have the controversal RQ about fake-claiming. -

Three things I notice here: one, Axle bolded "general", Axle said "Speaking of Stalking" before it, and Axle asked ONLY Keyser. The last one really catches my attention - why was the question directed just at Keyser rather than the entire game? -

Null-Indicative

2. In post 9 by Axle, I find a very interesting message inside spoilers: "Trolling looks like they are having fun when other people do it. I am failing to get value for money, I must have been doing it wrong. Oh well, I guess I will just be me instead.". -

While it could be just random musings, it does seem a bit unusual to post. -

Null-indicative, but suspicious

3. In post 22 by Axle (why are all the interesting things Page 1 all from Axle?...), Axle makes a nonchalant, not-caring type of post. -

I'm not sure what to make of it, but it kinda caught my attention. -

Null-Indicative, but mysterious

4. In post 27 by me, I make the rather confusing statement that a lot of people think Axle is the scummiest player currently in the game when I meant that I thought Axle was the scummiest player in the game based off the comments of other players. This led me to get questioned by Keyser due to the way I worded the post (more likely, the statement was a typo -- I type stuff and don't bother checking). Well, I eventually cleared this up with Keyser and Axle. I did suggest a pre-flip association of Keyser and Axle, but I think that would no longer be the case.

5. In post 48, Pisskop makes a completely random statement flaming AI for no reason (as I can see). -

This is probably just part of Pisskop's playstyle, but from an outsider's objective point of view, this post -

Null to Scum Indicative

6. The exchange between Keyser and Axle on page 3 show their commitment to solving the game.

-

Town-Indicative

7. The AI on page 3 is definitely not the scum one from Newbie 1666 (linked in my sig). -

Despite AI giving practically useless posts, empty reads, etc., this is not the AI of N1666 D2 (who actually seemed to be helpful) nor does it match N1666 D3 (way more active in this case). As a result -

Null-Indicative

8. In post 81, AI writes that his providing of meatless reasoning for his reads only made sense in RVS and if he kep it up all game, it be right to call him a joke. -

Well, as far as I can tell, AI is not being useful and has kept up this behavior the entire game. Tsk, tsk, maybe you should start providing more thorough reasons for your reads, as it took (let's see...) 5? people to ask that you share why Heat's vote was opportunistic before you finally answered.... -

Future posts are Scum-Indicative

9. In 88, Axle explains some of my earlier points in this list. -

Null-Indicative

10. In 96, AI makes a good point about Pisskop's 66 post. -

AI stated that Pisskop implied he could not win with AI. Therefore, that could be considered a scumslip as only scum would know whether or not they can win with someone, especially that early in the game. Nice Catch! -

Null-Scum Indicative

11. In 100, Pisskop self-votes. -

Based on what I was taught in Newbie 1666, this is -

Very Scum-Indicative

. His reason is he no longer cares and he says something about Keyser and AI are trying to force us out of LyLo with overanalysis... I will assume he meant RVS, but if he really meant LyLo, I would find it scummy. -

I will take in account Pisskop's style of playing and the fact his wagon was rather weak (In other words, the motive of the self-vote), so I'll downgrade this to -

Scum-Indicative

12. In 127, Pisskop explains his self-vote. -

I missed the context earlier. So, Pisskop says its his meta to be obnoxious and trolling, etc. during the early stages of D1? I would personally say self-voting is not a good way to prove a point, BUT I am pretty sure this is just Pisskop's way of playing. -

Lessens Pisskop's Scumread

13. In post 136, Axle asks clarification on a matter. -

While this seems to be Axle's way of doing stuff, I do think Axle took that post too literally. Unlike what I said earlier, the intended meaning of the post was fairly obvious even if it was somewhat ambiguous. -

Null-Scum-Indicative

14. Post 145 is an

pre-flip associative speculation

-

I mention this post as Ras has flipped scum. AI at this point suggests that

Pisskop

and Ras may be scum buddies.

15. In post 152, Massive directly states, " Honestly I always find these statements so bizarre, I think I'm pretty easy to read as every alignment." -

If someone reads your meta, maybe. But, I don't really have time to read all your games. Also, saying you're easy to discern as every alignment - I see that falling close to having to do with trust tells. Last of all, meta can be manipulated. -

Scum-Indicative

16. As of 194, Ras townsreads

UTL and Heat

-

Another thing to consider. Note that I am merely noting any possible associative tells..

17. I was the first one on the Ras wagon when I made 213. -

I don't care what Boon thinks --I have checked and double-checked this to ensure this was the case. As far as I can tell, Performer didn't vote until 241 and everyone was focused on Pisskop before my vote. - Conclusion: I started the three main wagons I was on on D1.

18. My early townread of Performer mainly comes from posts like 247.

19. I find post 254 somewhat bastard. -

The only non-bastard reason I can see for the mod not commenting on whether DayTalk is available is if there is a Mafia Encryptor. Otherwise, I don't see how this info would tilt the game one way or another. Maybe it's my inexperience on this site and to the game....

20.

@AI

: Please explain the pre-flip associative part of 259.

21. In 264, UTL explains his thoughts at that point. -

I find this a very nice and informative post from UTL -

Null-Town-Indicative

22. In 265, Massive states " A big part of why I think I'm easily read is because I really dislike being scum -- it's not why I play the game, even though I realize it's a necessary evil -- and it tends to show in my scum games." -

By your own words, I think this must be one of your scum games. You haven't been contributing much and most of your posts seem more filler than anything. -

Scum-Indicative

22. Post 281 strikes me as suspicious. Boon says it is not not (double negative) Pisskop's town game. He claims that Pisskop wouldn't do anything to arouse suspicion as scum. -

This conflicts with Pisskop's earlier "point" when self-voting.

FoS Boon

. My impression is that Pisskop always acts like he has this game (though I am thinking that he might tone it down a little if he's scum). On the other hand, Boon is suggesting Pisskop never attracts attention to himself as scum. -

Null-Scum-Indicative; Weakens Pisskop Town Read

23.

@Axle

: In 286, Axle writes " @Thread if you want to interact with me about something, go pick something else. If you get all whatever about this "interaction" with massive, I will be quite fine with making a bunch of others." -

I would like Axle to clarify; he seems to be contradicting himself and I don't comprehend what he's saying. -

Null-Indicative

24. Axle's question probably fits 293's description. Though, not too many people are familiar with the concept and some have never heard of it. -

Null-Indicative

25. 299 by Droog still strikes me as suspicious, but maybe not alignment-indicative. -

Null-Indicative

26. In 301, Droog says in a very weird way that AI's reads are backwards combined with adding his own personal quip in it. -

I still find this a scumtell, but I am less adamant on it as I was before. -

Null-Scum-Indicative

27. 303 is a completely random question asked by Droog to Keyser. -

I still find this post scummy. One, we are way out of RVS. And two, how does that post contribute to the game? It's a legitimate question, yes, but I feel the timing of it, etc. is rather inappropriate. He could've sent it as a PM -- it had nothing to do with this particular game or any ongoing game, so it should be within site rules. He could also create a Mafia Discussion thread on the topic or he could've replied to the already existing Mastin Academy thread. In other words, it seems to be a red herring. -

Very Scum-Indicative

28. In 330, Pisskop mentions "sc". -

What does "sc" stand for?

29. In 354, UTL questions my motive of saying Pisskop is town yet considering PLing him later. -

This is what I call ignorance -- I made my intentions very clear. -

Null-Scum-Indicative

30. I have the same issue with Heat's 357 as I do with UTL's 354. I also see evidence that Heat doesn't fully understand how PL works. I'll put it this way: some players are so irratable that keeping them as town does more harm than conducting a PL on them. I will admit, D1 is early for a PL suggestion, but later along the line, if the player in question persists (and isn't replaced), then he/she will eventually get lynched as people find irritable players scummier than other players (at least that's how I see it). In particular, you wouldn't want to go in to LyLo with a person like what Pisskop was at the beginning of the game. -

Null-Indicative

[/i] Oh, and no, I don't think that Pisskop deserves a PL anymore, it's no longer postponed.

31. In 406,

AI

states he doesn't think Ras is scum. -

I'm pretty sure AI never told us why he felt this way. Could be a possible

associative

tell.

32. In 432, Droog accuses me of asking for permission to lynch Ras. -

This is odd to say the least. At best, he is merely misunderstanding what I was trying to accomplish. I think it might be a bit more probable though that Droog is twisting my words in order to try to make me look bad. -

Scum-Indicative

33. I like Axle's 438. -

I like the way Axle plays. If he has a question, he asks. And, he seldomly jumps straight to if-fy conclusions when he posts. He's helpful, so -

Town-Indicative

34. In 440, UTL votes me for my earlier PL "crusade" on Pisskop. -

My main gripe is towards the end of the post where UTL fails to consider the 80 posts between 279 and 350. She appears to think that 16+ hours and 80 posts is not enough time and content for one to rethink a situation and change their reads. Seems like trying to frame evidence if you ask me. -

Scum-Indicative

35.

I will not hold 447 against Golden.

-

I only suspect slots of being scum (for activity reasons) if they are force replaced, etc. By requesting replacement in thread, Deus did the right thing. -

Town-Indicative

36. In post 481, AI writes to Pisskop to just vote UTL and he'll townread Pisskop. -

This strikes me as suspicious. It could be some scum gambit (etc.), or maybe AI is trying to bribe people to lynch UTL (because he knows UTL is town and is trying to get a mislynch in)

FoS AI

-

Very Scum-Indicative

37. In 504, AI merely shrugs when Performer brings up a question to him. -

This just jumps out as anti-town... -

Scum-Indicative

38. 517 is a good catch by Droog - Performer finds it scummy when I switch from Ras to Droog yet does the same thing himself. --

Null-Indicative but weakens Performer Town-Read

39. Between 518  and 524, Droog seems to present a case against Pisskop. -

Thought this was worth mention -

Null-Indicastive

40. The Droog vs Pisskop fight on page 22 strikes me as

Townie vs.  Townie.

41. Starting at 548, Golden shares his thoughts on some players. -

Nothing really seems fabricated here -

Null-Town Indicative

42. In 556, Pisskop lists a few points against Droog and says in the next post that it is ironic on so many levels. -

I see nothing ironic in what Droog has said and what you posted in the list. Droog is definitely not a troll -

Null-Scum Indicative

43. I like how 568 and 569 by Droog both just say "(That was sarcasm). -

Null-Indicative

44. Why does the mod feel a need to bump the thread every so often? Like in 574

45. In 676, UTL states he voted me as a reaction test for AI. -

I really find this ridiculous -

Scum-Indicative

46. In 699, Boon accuses me of wagon-hopping. -

As I have proven, that is not the case, but rather, I am considering other possibilities while we still got time in D1. Aka, I am trying to get reads on other people, so I'm better equipped for D2 -

Scum-Indicative

(The next series will probably be all about Boon)

47. Boon somehow takes 664 as a scumslip in  702. -

Am I not allowed to have fun like AI and Pisskop have basically been doing the entire game? -

Scum-Indicative

48. Boon interprets 683 as "buddying the ****" out of the people I mentioned in that in Boon's 703 -

First of all, he  seems to have completely ignored my convenient reads lists.... oh wait, he did see my most recent one then -- he even accused me of stuff in that post! -- The reads list alone should be evidence that I was not buddying those people. Second of all, since when has saying you do not want to lynch someone D1 become budding/WK. No, this seems like scum Boon trying to frame me and mislynch me. -

Scum Indicative

49. 706 is totally out of context and I don't see where the word SK was mentioned in my 434 -

I find this -

Null-Scum Indicative

50. 709 also needs clarification from Boon. -

Null-Indicative

51. I hate to admit it, but Ras's analysis of me in 723 was fairly accurate.

52. In post 730 by Boon, Boon considers my 732 as me admitting I'm scum. -

At the very least, I'm pretty sure Boon is guilty of confirmation bias against me here. -

Null-Indicative

53. 723 is interesting... -

I scumread Massive for this.... -

Very Scum-Indicative

54. I don't see where Performer's vote on me in 781 came from... And how was Ras in your town pool???

55. I'm seeing a probable association between

Performer

and Ras on page 32.

56. I'm not buying UTL's explanation in 804

57. I dislike Ai's naked defense of Ras in 829

58. In 862, Droog hammers because he prob. won't be on later -

I see no prblems here-

Null-Town-Indicative

59. Posts 866 and 867 just seem wrong -

AI disapproves of the Ras lynch yet never specifies why. He then calls Droog's hammer "scummy ****". I see no problems with Droog's hammer -- no one can stay up for 24 hrs ad we were only 6 or less hours to deadline. Seems scum-motivated.... -

Scum Indicative

^ is why I

hate

quoting stuff - It already took me hours to write that; imagine how much additional time quoting stuff would take. So yeah, I don't tend to do quotes unless it is a single post I'm referencing.

Oh, and the spoiler is long -- really long -- I expect you to read it all, so you understand where I stand in the game as of the end of N1.

Just saying, it took me a total of about 6.5 hrs to compile this entire post. I will be very cross if I get NK N1 (personally think Keyser's the more-likely NK) and you shall invoke my ire if you completely ignore it. I really do hope this post helps you see where I am currently standing, and hopefully, Boon won't accuse me of making fluff with this post. Well, those were just some side comments I wanted to say...

@UTL: One Question --> Do you think scum would take the time to go through the thread again and make the above post?

I do it all the time in my offsite games as scum, so yes.

[UpTooLate]

I do it all the time in my offsite games as scum, so yes.

(Not Expecting That...)

Okay, let me rephrase the question:

Do you think

most

scum would make such a detailed analysis post during the night?

I mean, if they were really afraid of looking guilty, especially after one of their scumbuddies just got lynched N1, it's possible. And the fact that you're using that as a defense is interesting to me too.

[UpTooLate]

However, please explain the ways in which Performer is "playing a little differently".

I apologize, I really should have elaborated more. His attitude is completely different. In the game where he was town and I was scum, he had an "I'm better than you" vibe, and town me wouldn't have liked him any more than scum me did. I felt he was more present in that game as well, his arguments more solid. In this game, I don't feel like he's trying nearly as hard to scum hunt as I've seen previously, and he's posting a lot less.

899 Performer says he's doubting his town read on me based on AI's scumread of me, where he gave no other reason than a buzzword. There was no explanation behind it whatsoever. He then said he felt like AI was "offed because he was on the right track" with his heat/utl/pk theory. AI had a vote on me, yes, but again, no real reason and he didn't do much to push it, nor was he really pushing heat or PK. Towards the end of D1, he even said he was rethinking PK iirc. Why would he be killed for a theory he wasn't even really pushing?

905 also sat really weirdly with me for some reason.

Droog's 925 brought up a really good point about Performer's read on Rask, and how back and forth it was. Perfomer's 937 response was less than satisfying, as was his 1006 to Axle wanting the same information (though the latter was after my initial scum read of him and I'm kind of just mixing past and present thoughts together in this post).

939 he makes a weak case against droog and switches his vote from PK.

1014 He finally kind of gave a better answer to Axle, but why didn't he say any of this the first or second time he was asked?

1015 is yet another vote switch, this time to Heat. Is he realizing that none of his arguments are going to stick, so he's just hopping from person to person until someone joins him?

1018 Axle makes some really good points on Performer's read switching on Rask, 1069 is another less than inspiring answer. "Reading between the lines" can get you almost anywhere you want to be. To a certain extent, yes, you do have to "read between the lines", but it's really easy to use that later as an excuse on why you're saying you saw something a certain way.

Scum Performer wouldn't make a post like 787. If Performer was scum, he would not vote, vote somewhere else, not provide justifications, stir up confusion - or some combination of the above.

Telling us what scum Perfomer would and would not do doesn't really get us anywhere. You can say these things all day, doesn't make them accurate.

pk -

still townreading him

.

Maybe I missed where you started town reading him after you made that case and voted him?

I can see your notes on Ircher throughout your ISO, but I can't see your case on Performer.

Maybe this clears things up a bit. My initial scum read of Performer was based mostly on gut and my previous experience with him along with a lot of points everybody else had made. I still really don't like Ircher, but PK made a good point, and with deadline this close (I didn't realize we were so close, oops) I feel like my vote will be wasted there.

VOTE: Performer

I do believe that's

L-1

[UpTooLate]

@Boon -- Why do you want to lynch Performer so quickly?

I guess I'll have to find a way to discern massive's alignment later.

Let's see.... Performer's out -- He's L-1 -- Will consider this one closer to deadline
Not voting Pisskop, Keyser, or Axle -- Townreads
Meh, I think Heat's being sincere in his posts
Golden has disappeared but I doubt he is scum.
I'm unsure about Droog and I think Boon just likes to tunnel everyone....
And, I'm obviously am not voting myself.

That leaves me with:

VOTE: UTL

POE or sheeping Keyser?

[UpTooLate]

Let's see.... Performer's out -- He's L-1 -- Will consider this one closer to deadline

POE or sheeping Keyser?

Probably about 75% POE and 25% Sheeping Keyser

TIMER

3 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes

I understand not wanting to hammer Perfomer yet, that's fine. But you're voting mostly based on POE this close to deadline? And if you plan to consider Performer closer to deadline, why don't you consider now and hold the vote?

[UpTooLate]

@UTL Why do you scumread Heat? Who do you think we should lynch? Performer & Ircher? Which one would you prefer?

I initially scumread Heat because nothing he really said made me feel like he was town, but I've liked more and more of what I've seen from him, so he's not really that low on my list anymore.

I'd prefer Ircher, especially after his POE/Sheep vote this close to deadline. However, like I said earlier, PK made a good point about the wagon length and trying to pull people off one to the other. I'm scum reading both, so Performer is still a great candidate.

[UpTooLate]

In the game where he was town and I was scum

@UTL

Which game pls. ta.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=64392

I will address everything else tomorrow, when I'm sober.

Have a fantastic night!

[UpTooLate]

I'm on mobile, trying to keep up but can't post like I'd like to. I should have access to my laptop tomorrow. This is interesting though..

My scumreads include Golden, Heat, and now UTL. She's reading me off one game, somehow saying I'm playing vastly different. She's twisting my posts in her 1086, and even voted me.
VOTE: UpTooLate

OMGUS? Come on now.. that's as bad as a POE/Sheep vote.

[UpTooLate]

UTL - misrepresented me, UTL voted me, UTL misrepresented me again – scummy. Also, a wagon is already on her compared to my other scumreads.

It's... it's literally OMGUS. You have a case on everybody else (which btw I'm about to play catch up and haven't full read them yet, or a lot of things tbh, on the agenda for my evening) but you have VOTE on me that's OMGUS? What? You say I misrepped you, I don't feel I did. I voted you, yes. So if voting someone I believe is scummy, is scummy in itself, then everybody on your wagon should be in your scum pile my friend.

[UpTooLate]

She's reading me off one game, somehow saying I'm playing vastly different.

Didn't you do the same thing about me?

UTL - misrepresented me, UTL voted me, UTL misrepresented me again – scummy. Also, a wagon is already on her compared to my other scumreads.

It's... it's literally OMGUS. You have a case on everybody else (which btw I'm about to play catch up and haven't full read them yet, or a lot of things tbh, on the agenda for my evening) but you have VOTE on me that's OMGUS? What? You say I misrepped you, I don't feel I did. I voted you, yes. So if voting someone I believe is scummy, is scummy in itself, then everybody on your wagon should be in your scum pile my friend.

I do not believe this defense.

It's not a defense, it's literally what you're doing.

[UpTooLate]

Someone should hammer utl

Hey now. I wasn't even awake at this point. No fair =(

Let me drink coffee and read so I can say stuff please?

[UpTooLate]

PK, might I ask why you switched your vote to me?

[UpTooLate]

I'm really not understanding my wagon right now? Keyser is literally the only one who voted me with substance.

Ircher admitted to mostly POE/sheep voting me.

Perfomer is LITERALLY OMGUS at L-1.

And PK.. I don't understand PK. It has something to do with GR? I'm guessing PK thinks GR is scum, and by GR voting Performer and not me, I'm scum because of it? Is that right?

[UpTooLate]

I dont understand my wagon

Its only been coming since Day 1

Dont vote me

I appeal to you; I beseech thee as if yee were the heaven's above! :C

Insinuating AtE? No. Not it at all. I'm trying to figure out why my wagon developed so fast. Keyser started it, and is the only one who's put forth any reasoning for it. I've already discussed the rest of the votes, I'm not going into them again. I find it odd that when I ask you directly why you voted for me, you respond to my wagon analysis instead? You were dead set on Performer then just jumped wagons to mine, less than 24 hours left in the day, why? I do realize you've said previously that you'd lynch me too, but again, you've never given any reasons.

[UpTooLate]

Pisskop, why didn't you just explain why you jumped wagons yesterday? If you want people to fucking listen to you, you can't just pull the "I'm PK so do what I say" bs. Don't get all pissy today because we didn't see what you saw, and you didn't take the time to point it out.

[UpTooLate]

ircher has been fearmongering and pulling AtE all fucking phase and it's really annoying but whats even more annoying is that I think I'm not scumreading him anymore and idk how I feel about that

I'm having the same issue. Trying to reevaluate things from a different perspective now.

[UpTooLate]

Going by the whole "one scum in UTL and Heat" thing then UTL has to be scum bc I'm town.

This doesn't even make any sense. Why is it beyond you to even consider that whole theory is incorrect and we're both town, if you actually are?


(OOC, I hope your headache gets better, I get sinus headaches all the time, they're the worst.)

[UpTooLate]

Yes because when I flip scum, you can charge right at him. BE. MY. GUEST.

What do you mean when you flip scum?

[UpTooLate]

Catch up day

[UpTooLate]

I'm still trying to read through lots of walls of Axle's text and trying to keep up at the same time, RC, I'm just a gut read? Heat you're sheeping? And PK I'm assuming has reasons he's not going to explain but that's what led to his inability to stop Performer's ML yesterday? Is that the jist right now?

[UpTooLate]

Good game everyone! Thanks for the game, Dier!