Open 45 - Baby Too Much Scum - Game Over! before 506

[Flyinghawk]

jesus, I've heard that joke before.

random

Vote: Bird1111

because its like my name but less specific and with silly numbers.

[Flyinghawk]

wait a minute...hawks cant fly? what is the joke..(lost)

I dunno if its a joke or not, but someone in another game has said that to me before as a reason for a Random Vote, so I guess its funny to some peopel.

[Flyinghawk]

Could we have a votecount please mod?

[Flyinghawk]

Just out of curiosity, with 8 people does it take 5 or 4 to lynch?

[Flyinghawk]

has mneme not confirmed yet?

[Flyinghawk]

like other's, my Random vote is pretty useless.

Unvote

Also, i would like to put out that from the role quotes that it looks like the mafia can't NK anyone, but need 4 lynchs or SKs to win. Thus, watch for people pushing for lynches really hard.

[Flyinghawk]

I realize that what I just said sounded terribly simplistic.

What I meant to say was: in a small game, mafia can try to hide and not post much to wait for a lynch and then NK any of their serious threats. However, In a game that the mafia can't NK, they have to work to get the rest of the town to lynch their serious threats. Thus, anyone pushing for a quick lynch or a lynch before all information is considered, gives off a much bigger scumtell than normal.

[Flyinghawk]

Also, since this is an open game...what's the setup? From the roles in the opening page, I'd guess 8 = 1 FBI, 1 SK, 2 Mafia, 4 Townies (otherwise, a mislynch and town kill would cause the mafia to win immediately), but unless it's in the open thread somewhere I don't know where the setup is posted.

I agree that this is the most likely setup. 3 mafia members is a bit much. I'm not sure what would happen if there are 2 SK's...

with 2 sks, the game could be over by day 2. Day 1 could lynch a townie, Night 1 could kill 2 townies, and Day 2 could lynch the the FBI agent or a SK (the mafia, at this point would be almost powerful enough to get the lynch voted for by themselves)


My observation isn't actually that important, but I think its kinda interesting

[Flyinghawk]

joost: Play your own game.

Personally? I'm happy to punish people who treat the random stage as a joke.

unvote
vote: bird1111

Unvoting your random just because the game seems to be stalling seems to be some wierd mutation of "unvote for no damn reason".

Morover, the entire attidude -- that there's some hard and fast stage between "random" and "exiting the random stage" when random votes are discounted is both artificial and seems to miss the point of random voting in the first place.

Why did you vote Bird but not Ckillo, who did the same exact option right above Bird's post? This seems very very odd to me.

Vote:Mneme

[Flyinghawk]

Actually Jennar, while I appreciate that you feel I had a good defense backing up my vote on Mneme, I now consider the vote to be a little rash of me. Looking back, Mneme's attack of Bird1111 could easily have been a mistake, and he's played well enough that I believe him when he did say it was a blunder.

And I wasn't 'eagerly' trying to get a quick lynch off, that would be hypocritical of my even earlier post stating that quick-lynching is a bad idea and a scum-tell.

So:

Unvote, FOS:Jennar

Jennar's attack seems too aggressive in comparison to the information she had to back herself up on. I don't want to vote her because this might put her too close to a lynch, but she is a pretty prime scum candidate.

[Flyinghawk]

ooh, sorry, one more quick thing.


Mod, you promiseda vote count at the top of each page. I'd appreciate a vote count soon, as there has been a sudden flurry of activity. thanks!

[Flyinghawk]

I dont lke flyinghawk's play. He seems to be mirroring everyone's vote and reasoning...and the fact you are lying for him, backtracking in regards to him, and defending him makes me feel he could be your scum buddy..

so

FoS flyinghawk

, for your mirror votes, but mostly due to assocaition

I dont have much read from anyone else. Since the random vote stage ending the only real conversation has been between you and I.

But I would love everyone to jump in

I don't quite understand where you are coming from, saying I mirror votes. My first vote was a random vote, mirroring no one. I unvoted that random vote pretty early on, earlier than most other people undid their random votes, which isn't mirroring either. I voted Mneme for a scumtell that i now realize was probably worth a FOS instead of a vote. When I realized his action wasn't really all that scummy, I unvoted.

I realize that the reasoning for my vote on Mneme came up in conversation a fair bit, but thats hardly enough for me to be accused of mirroring, At least I think.


If i'm missing something drastic that i've done that is the reason why you feel this way about me, please tell me.

[Flyinghawk]

How do CKD's arguments against Flyinghawk apply to me?

They don't really, but I did a quick reread and it seemed to me that if you combine your actions with Flyinghawk's it might be possible to see systematic bandwagoning. Either player seperate don't seem scummy to me. It was just a suggestion, nothing more.

At this point cumulatively, we have had remarks that CKD and Bird 1111 and I are all copying each others votes. I think we have to realize that at this point, it ACTUALLY doesn't look like any of us copy each other intentionally(at least I have not meant to, and from Bird1111's reaction, neither did he) And that this way of thinking (the mafia's buddy will copying the other mafia's vote) is a really shaky way of looking for a scumtell, barring somethign really obvious.

[Flyinghawk]

My stands on KarmaDog.

You come and Mneme come off looking like scum who are edging for anything to vote on just to try and get a lynch off. Without a Night phase to off townies in you [n]need[/i] the day lynch to win.

-J

Why would this be a mafia tell more than a town tell, as town also relies on lynching to win?

The town has time on their side. If 10 days go by without a lynch the town is still in a strong position to win. Each day that goes by without a lynch or town death increases the towns chances of winning. The Mafia need a day lynch to change the status quo. These are the basics of strategy, probability, and understanding of how this game is played.


-J

At the same time, however, there is a SK. You are correct in the statement that the Mafia needs day lynches in order to win easily, but technically they could just let the SK do the dirty work for them.

Because the mafia have no NK, the only real difference between the town and the mafia is that the mafia know who their partner is. Keep this in mind.

[Flyinghawk]

Jennar, you appear to not understand how this game works.

The problem is that I understand this game all too well.

No, you don't. Punk.

Your lack of maturity is astounding.

In the big scheme of things, calling someone a punk doesn't show much inmaturity. Get over it.

Without -bandwagons- during the day, the town is no better off with a long day than we would be with a short one.

In essence a bandwagon is just people jumping on a single individual without much rhyme or reason for doing so.

Um, no.

A bandwagon is any sequence of people jumping on the same person.

.....Did you even read what I wrote. You just stated what I said.

This is what gets me the most. There is a BIG and MAJOR difference between what the two of you said. If someone does jump on a bandwagon with 'no rhyme or reason' then perhaps one could look at that as a small scumtell. But generally people jump on to bandwagons because they find something scummy about a person that a bunch of other people find scummy to.
Read more carefully, k.

By majority the Scum are more likely to jump on Town wagons in an effort to lynch them. Wagons rarely form against scum unless there is a flat out mistake from the Mafia.

And thus you show how much of a punk you are.

If the scum play this way, they will always lose against moderately competent town.

But if they -don't- play this way, they have a better chance of losing one or more of their number to an early bandwagon.

And if they try to jump on bandwagons on scum-mates without being willing to ride those bandwagons to a conclusion, again, they risk exposure.

So we apply circular logic to every wagon? That you have to assume that scum jumped on a wagon against their teammate in order to avoid exposure? And hence each person on that wagon should be evaluated as scum? And if he didn't then what? You are walking into a logical trap.

You need to evaluate everyone's reasoning for joining a bandwagon independently. A bandwagon vote can look both pro-town or scummy depending on the reasoning and the timing of the vote. Because of this, at points there can be contradicting logic, but that doesn't make the logic bad.

This is why bandwagons are important; they are how the town gains info -- and thus how the town wins.

Wagons provide little information beyond a base voting history. They should used straws that tip scales into one realm or another not the basis of an argument. Any scum worth half his salt will pay his team mate not difference during day and portray himself as town in every way. You are too busy looking for correlations between individuals to try and draw conclusions which will only get you headway against scum idiots.

I don't understand your first two sentences, but the rest of them I agree with. Saying that two people seem to be working together at a certain point is a far fetched scum tell at best. Good, or even decen, mafia will know well enough that they shouldn't be obviously working together.

Punk.

Idiot.

chill.

Unvote
Vote: Mneme

for now, i'm leaning to considering this an OMGUS vote.

-J

My comments are in bold. I dunno, maybe i'm just having a bad day, but this post of Jennar's really irked me. The not reading carefully is a big scum tell.

FOS: Jennar

I'll give him 1 chance to defend himself, then perhaps i'll vote for him.

[Flyinghawk]

I voted Mneme simply because I have no desire to deal with his conformist ideals on how a game should be played only because of precedent and discourse that has been established on this forum.

That sentence is completely and utterly ridiculous. Your saying Mneme is playing LIKE the rules and conversation in previous mafiascum games are played. And that you think thats bad, bad enough that you don't want to play with him.



WHAT??



Perhaps you don't know the actual meanin of the words you used in that sentence, which i hope is the case. Regardless, that is a horrible reason to vote someone. I hope people understand this.

[Flyinghawk]

3 scum in an 8 person game? Wow.

Ok guys, i'm replacing ckillor, give me a chance to read the thread and as I am going to bed in a minute i'll have my thoughts up tomorrow after church.

my interpretation of the rules seems to be that the mafia aren't that different from the town. The one real scum is the serial killer, whereas the 2 mafia look like that type of scum who are inept at doing anything important


Had SATS today and im tired. I'll post some actual analysis of the game at a later time.

[Flyinghawk]

The reason i said my interpretation was that Mafia aren't that different to town is the fact that the mafia need 4 lynches to win(provided one of the mafia don't get lynched themselves) and the town need 3 lynchs to win (the 2 mafia and the SK)

The only difference is the mafia know who the other person in their group is, and the Town need 1 less lynch. I think that these variables seem to even out, making the two groups very similar.

[Flyinghawk]

So I've spent the last couple hours analyzing the game as i said i would, and here are my results:

The Cast(in order of appearance)

CuriousKarmaDog

CKD has been playing the same sort of game that he has been in the other game i am in with him. He asks a lot of questions and forces good discussion. I particularly like his attack of Jennar.
However, some parts of his arguments do not add up. On post 105 he accuses me of,"mirroring everybody" and Jennar backing me up in my 'mirroring' caused him to believe i am Jennar's scumbuddy. When I asked for clarification, he said that I was mirroring just his votes. Not Jennar's. This doesnt really compute.
At the same time, he said it was a stretch(duh) and that he would drop this silly argument. However, in post 198 he still seems stubbornly stuck on the idea that i'm mirroring his votes. This is weird and off, and, as previously stated, rather silly.

Ckillor/White

Ckillor seemed really busy with other stuff in his life rather than this game. He posted infrequently, and didn't post anything of content when he did. Nothing scummy at least though, and i'm glad he got a replacement. White has come out guns blazing, firing questions at everyone and has been playing reasonably. He's not very scummy, yet.

Joost

Joost, straight-up does not seem very scummy to me. He is an active player that asks questions but doesn't give up too much information. He seems to not like CuriousKarmaDog very much, as he attacks CKD from time to time. Perhaps a bit more questioning on this guy, so he has to give up a bit more info. But for now, not scummy.

Bird11111

His play is similar to Joost in the sense that he tries hard not to cause ripples and asks questions without making much too much of a deal out of it. One slightly scummy thing is Joost asked him a bunch of questions on post 144 that have gone unanswered, but other than that, reasonably clean as well.

Jennar

Most people already know my views on Jennar. Poor and hypocritical play and logic. Not to mention overreactions and poor conclusions. I have been hesitant to give her my vote because she's so close to a lynch, but her bad play is so hypocritical and scummy, not to mention my previous threat to vote her, that she deserves my vote.

Edion0

He is the big lurker in this game. Made excuses to not talk very much at all for awhile. Lately, he has started to become more active, because his lurking seems to have to started catching up with him. a SK possiblity?

Mneme

His post 63 is the catalyst in the spat between Jennar and CKD. He starts out strong, but fades. In page 4, he attacks Bird1111 with good reasoning, but then stops that train of thought. Again in page 6, he attacks Jennar with good points and questions, but then gives up again. A good scum hunter, but could use a follow through. Not very scummy.



Annd finally: Other's views on me:

Well, people seem to be misinterpreting what I said when I called the town group and the mafia group similar. CKD im looking at you. Never once did i say the mafia weren't scum, or that i considered the mafia any less scummy than in other mafia games. Just my INTERPRETATION of the rules of this game is that the mafia group and the town group are similar in many regards.
The other thing people have been saying is that i've been actively lurking and not posting for content, which is something i hope i can alleviate with this post right now.


Any questions, comments, or discussion is more than welcome.




oh, and

Vote: Jennar

[Flyinghawk]

Bah, even the best laid plans of mice and men... I was so sure Jennar was scum to, ah well.

Unvote

The fbi agent is the most important role in this game, along with its counterpart the SK. Regardless about whether or not we believe Jennar, we can't take the risk.

[Flyinghawk]

Flyinghawk: The main thing that catches my eye about him is that except for Jennar, he isn't supicious of anyone. Is following even more so than edion

Vote: Flyinghawk

Did I not clearly imply that I thought Edion was possibly the Serial Killer? Or that I thought CKD's actions fishy? Or that I thought you were scummy for not answering Joost's questions? If I need to spell it out for you, then:

FOS:Edion0

FOS:CuriousKarmaDog

FOS: Bird1111

If it honestly helps you see that I find these individuals scummy, then i'll do that, but I'm against FOSing large amounts of people at a time because it detracts from the meaning of the FOS("This guy is acting suspicious, look into him")

[Flyinghawk]

How does my post look shady?

I have the same question, explain yourself CKD.

[Flyinghawk]

We've taken so long on D1 because Jennar messed up a bit and there were a bunch of lurkers. I'm getting scummy vibes from you, I shouldn't have unvoted Edion. Something's not right with you, you don't actually seem to care about this thread, you just want to go along with the majority lynch of FH.

Unvote(?), Vote: Mookeh

Where do you get the idea that there is a majority lynch on me white? Theres 1 vote on me, and that is Bird's not very convincing vote.

I think Mookeh is wrong in his statement about me, however. I attacked Jennar stronger than most people, and I was fairly positive from her plays and lack of defense that she was scum. I just, as I've said before, held off on my vote for her for awhile because I didn't want to lynch too early. I've been preaching all game not to lynch unless we are positive the person is scum, and I was just holding by that thought process in not voting for Jennar until when I did.

[Flyinghawk]

Ug. Didn't get around to posting today, so I'm going to make this quick.

1. Ad Homenim isn't nearly as inappropriate in this game, where we -are- attacking one another.
2. Technically, my argument against Jennar wasn't ad homenim, just insult-laden. I made a perfectly non-fallacy-laden attack on Jennar's argument, and followed this up by insulting him (rather than the insults being the basis of my argument; "BM always plays scum like he's playing this game" is an ad homenim argument, as is "PDQ is a lousy player, so we should lynch him even if he's town", while "your argument is crap for this reason, the fact that you continue to argue it after I've demolished it shows you're an idiot" isn't ad homenim, just gratuitously insulting. Just sayin'
3. It's obvious that Jennar is town, he's just (IMO) played badly. My last post indicated that I think he's town, but preserved my arguments for posterity, made before the claim.

All that said, I think FH is the play for today. Sure, his behavior smacks more of mafia (apoligia for the mafia are a mafia tell any way you slice it, however it's "meant") than SK, but that's no garuntee, and I'm not willing to lynch random townies in the hope of getting a SK; I'd rather lynch people most likely to be mafia and hope we get an SK "by mistake" unless we've got two equally scummy candidates, one of whom is more likely to be mafia, one more likely to be SK.

vote: Flyinghawk

*I would like to preface this post with a message asking everyone to read and understand my reasons before assuming this is an OMGUS vote. It is not, and i would feel the same way if he posted this post in regards to any other player*


This is horrible logic. It is ESSENTIAL that we kill the SK tonight, Otherwise The FBI agent will be dead. This will give the Serial Killer free reign over the night. For day 1, anything less than lynching the Serial Killer is unnacceptable.

Due to your reasoning that not lynching a townie is more important than lynching the SK(which is totally not true since if we don't lynch either a townie or a SK, the townie FBI agent is dead anyways), I believe that you are the SK.

Vote:Mneme

[Flyinghawk]

How does my post look shady?

How does my post look shady?

I have the same question, explain yourself CKD.

LOL, you two crazy kids..

Flyinghawk’s post was worse, because he immediately jumped to the defensive and jump when bird told him to. Almost like hawk is way too worried about what we think…which I think is yet another strike against Flyinghawk..probably scum

I didnt like bird's post because he was lurking, had to be prodded, then just regurgitated cases and statements everyone has already stated. I am getting a SK vibe off bird.

Why didn’t you give an opinion of me in your break down, or am I missing it in the quote tags?

Defending myself against Bird's response to my analysis was more of an explanation. I thought the three people I FOSed were acting scummy, but is FOSing 3 people in the same post really effective? I try hard not to FOS more than one person per post, because once you start saying 'you and you and you are all suspicious' the effectiveness goes down. However, Bird seemed to think that I only thought Jennar was suspicious, which was wrong.
I find it interesting that you jump on me for over anxiously defending myself though, and heres why:
Mookeh, since he's joined this game, has defended himself like crazy. You want over anxious defending? Try his responses to Whites questions about his analysis. While the circumstances are slightly different, the jist is still the same. Yet, you don't even mention this. You just critique and give advice about his arguments. In fact, you even deny that you are attacking him when he implies that he thinks you are. This thought process of mine isn't completely thought out, but theres something that doesn't add up there.

In my mind bird or mneme is the SK...going to review each and see if I find anything...

I find it interesting that more than one person perhaps believes Mneme is the SK. I'm looking back to see if I can find anything else, but I would definetely be interested in seeing if you can find anything.

[Flyinghawk]

So basically White isn't going to answer any of mookeh's questions, huh.

[Flyinghawk]

I don't see how, Jennar, you can say that I have been shifting attention on to Mookeh, I just brought him up as an example. I didn't even say what he was doing was scummy, I was using it to show a discrepancy of CKDs logic.

Furthermore, stating that I am both "trying to put attention on Mookeh" and "not hunting for scum" is a direct contradiction to begin with. Because I disagree with the first statement, this argument is basically moot, but its still a flaw in logic.


Finally, I am very upset that White has chosen this moment to leave. Regardless of the reason, I think its a scummy move to leave with these unanswered questions, and especially without informing the other players in this thread. I mean, if he had enough time to tell the mod that he isn't going to be around, couldn't he at least have enough to to briefly respond to Mookeh's questions?

[Flyinghawk]

Also, it's possible the SK will decide they're better off trying to hit mafia night 1 rather than the FBI agent, as they only have two tries before they lose. (Please, please, nobody calculate odds on this publicly without discussion. This is the SK's problem, though, of course, we benefit if we can convince the sk to go shooting for mafia rather than the fbi)

I don't THINK that there is a chance that the SK will do this. First of all, we have to accept that the FBI agent is Jennar. So, the SK has 100% percent of getting this kill right tonight. The mafia can't directly hurt the SK, whereas the FBI agent has a chance of finding the SK on night 1. Therefor, why would the SK take such a risk to HELP the town, who are against him anyways?

This is very odd logic.

[Flyinghawk]

I'll post my complete thoughts when I get a chance to read through the whole thread. A fresh perspective, if you will.

Cool, Bird1111 was a pretty fringe player, not much information on him throughout the game, so getting more from you would be excellent.

[Flyinghawk]

Flyinghawk- For one thing, he's done some opportunistic lurking at times. Also jumped on the Jennar bandwagon, but more alarmingly pointed three FOS' in one post, without a vote. Leaning toward scum.

Heh, at this point I just have to say I can't please everyone, furthermore I can't please anyone.

I did not want to FOS ANY of those people, I was forced to by people claiming I did not find anyone scummy. If i could, i would have prefered my analysis to be kept at face value, no FOS's involved at all.


Otherwise, you make a good point about saying Jennar could be the SK claiming FBI. And your right as well in stating that the FBI probably wouldn't counterclaim right away, as the validity of the counterclaim can always be called into question. And this could lead to the SK with a lynched FBI agent and a free NK at a defenless townie.

However, can you see how assuming that Jennar could still be the SK even though she's claiming FBI leaves us nowhere? we'd just be going around in circles running up agains the 'she is the SK' wall and the "she claimed FBI' wall until the end of time.
At this point, i'd say its impossible to come to closure on the Jennar deal.


I'd like to point out that Jennar has been more or less silent since she claimed.

I'd also like to point you in the direction of Mneme in terms of the Sk. Both the lurking at the beginning of the game and the 'oh maybe the SK won't go after the FBI agent night one, guys' post are slight SK tells in my opinion. Slight tells, yes, but when your grabbing at straws, getting a single fibre helps.

[Flyinghawk]

B) Jennar is lying and the real FBI agent is willing to let Jennar get NK'd to keep the SK from somehow hitting him tonight instead.

But if Jennar was lying and is the SK, then there is no NK to kill her off.

I say, let this go and, for now, believe that Jennar is the FBI, as there is nothing to prove otherwise.

[Flyinghawk]

No, I'm not the FBI agent, I'm just pointing out that just because there was no counter-claim doesn't mean that Jennar is telling the truth.

Where is he during this discussion, anyway?

I have to agree, where is Jennar? I mentioned her previously, but still no response.

Prod mod?

[Flyinghawk]

Just for the record, we can afford 2 mislynches (i.e. lynching anyone other than the SK) especially if we lynch scum instead or if the SK kills scum. I'm not saying we should therefor lynch anybody we think is remotely possibly the sk, but we're not at lylo or anything.

BTW is FlyingHawk still here?

yeah, i'm still around, its the end of a term at my school, however, and i'm rather swamped with work. I try to get on her as much as possible, But i do realize that I have been slacking in my posts lately.
Beginning of next week, all this stress will be done with, and i'll be back in game actively, and my first order of business will be proving I'm not mafia. My second order of business will be to do a detailed re read of the whole game, searching for SK possibilites along the way.
So, stay tuned, i suppose.

[Flyinghawk]

hmm, Jdodge, no response whatsoever? White made a boatload of allegations in the short time he was in this game, it would definetley be beneficial to this game if you could at least make an effort to try to explain some of them.

thanks.


tuesday is the term deadline, so expect my aformentioned long post on wednesday or thursday.

[Flyinghawk]

Alright initially I had said I would make a post about why I am not scum, but with this sudden flurry of information I must stop for a second. Obviously, as a protown player, I am rather upset about this assumption. Originally I was going to try to prove my innoncence, but this seems a little counterintuitive as I am not all that sure where people feel I went wrong. Since Jennar Roleclaimed, i've hardly done anything but SK search, and I've come up with a well-evindenced hypothesis that the SK is Mneme. Therefore, please consider Mneme(I believe both Oman and CKD has at one point or another expressed that they perhaps are in step with me on this belief, and Kuribo, i think believes so as well), I will be more than happy to clarify why I think that Mneme is the SK.
Finally, in response to these mafia claims on me, I would appreciate some sort of reasoning behind this so I can give you my responses. For example, Oman, in your Giant Quotes post, you state that I am probably Mafia, yet the only reference you have to me is one 1 line quote of mine, which you say is an OMGUS vote. please, PLEASE give more of a reason than that. Once again, I would be more than happy to try to prove my innocence, but its hard when its so ambiguous. If people don't give me reasons, I'll still try to prove innocence, but it would be more effective If i had a better idea as to what to try to prove. Thanks a lot, in advance.

[Flyinghawk]

mafia up to the point where FH used "don't lynch me as mafia; you should be looking for the SK" defense (and FH, don't backpedal now; you were doing so well!).

Thats not what I said at all! YOU stated that lynching a townie was worse than not lynching the SK, so lynching at least a scum role was good enough for night 1, and so you voted me. I said this is not true, that it was necessery to get the SK tonight, and that you stating otherwise was an SK tell.
You the responded saying that I was claiming to be mafia, and continued the game with that incorrect assumption from then on out.
Christ, if your going state my defense, as you did in the quote above, then at least make it not a blatent lie, ok?

and Oman, I'm still waiting for that reasoning; stating that not-doing it is scummy and your aware of that doesn't make not-doing it not scummy.

[Flyinghawk]

aww shit, messed up the quotes. Thats Mnemes quote, not Omans. Sorry!

[Flyinghawk]

The First Annual 'Counting of the Votes'!

Mneme [3](Flyinghawk, Kuribo, CKD)

Mookeh[1](Jdodge)

Not Voting[4](Joost, Mneme, Flyinghawk, Mookeh).

Deadline still Nov. 29 at 1:30 AM EST.

I'm listed twice..



Response to Oman's post later tonight, or tommorow afternoon depending on homework.

[Flyinghawk]

I replaced your writing with my own writing, oman, and i quoted you if I responded to your actual writing

Just out of curiosity, with 8 people does it take 5 or 4 to lynch?

On the other website I had played upon, generally it took half of the votes to lynch with an even number of players, and half votes+1 to lynch with an odd number of players. At mafiascum, it appears to be half+1 for all lynches, which is new to me. So yes, I asked the question "just out of curiosity" because I was unsure whether 5 or 4 votes were needed, but was also aware that the truth of the matter would be made aware to me once a fourth vote was placed on someone.

Also, i would like to put out that from the role quotes that it looks like the mafia can't NK anyone,

Once again, this is me trying to understand the rules. I'm not claiming anywhere that I am a mafia expert(although I am a bit more educated than I was when I first started the game) I had not seen a set up similar to this before, and I was just understanding the character roles out loud. Furthermore, (without checking to verify) the very next post, I think, was someone(jennar or joost) saying they had not realized this fact either.
I'd say post 72 is wagoning. Especially as as soon as CKD Unvotes, FH's next post also unvotes and FoSes the same player CKD voted.

my interpretation of the rules seems to be that the mafia aren't that different from the town. The one real scum is the serial killer, whereas the 2 mafia look like that type of scum who are inept at doing anything important

Isn't this something we all agree on now? I had figured this out from this early point in the game, I believe pre-Jennar claim, that the Mafia are pretty helpless in comparison to other game's mafia. Without a NK, the mafia are rendered useless in terms of the big threat in a game. The only one with any night power is the Serial Killer, so obviously he's the biggest threat, THEN followed by the mafia. I took this a step farther and postulated that

hypothetically

, this game could be set up as 2 seperate groups of townies(one being the good town, and one being the hapless mafia) both trying to win, but both also against the one power in the game: the SK. There are 3 townies as opposed to the 2 mafia, but the mafia knows who the other person in their group is, which is their advantage. This means that This game makes those two groups very balanced, which is basically what I was trying to point out.

Post 202, he likes any of CKD's arguments that are aimed at Jennar and hates any of them aimed at him.

Obviously, hmm? I'm not going to say "good work there CKD" when he's bashing me. Of course, up until the Jennar claim I was very adamant that Jennar was mafia, and I readily agreed with CKD's arguments against Jennar.
Furthermore, i never stated 'hate' in any of my posts abot CKDs argument. once again, obviously i disagreed from them, though, and i still do.

His analysis of Ckillor/White is off too. Its very appologetic and quite "They're not scummy, but...uh...they could be" by which I mean he's giving a possible buddy "town" markings but not letting a connection form.

Ehh, at this point in time, Ckillor had barely posted anything of content, and I don't generally like to decide if someone is scummy or not based upon lurking. Its not a protown tell definetly, but, especially in ckillors case, i would argue against it being a scum tell (as he was probably to busy to play and this was the reason why he got replaced).
Also, at this point in the game, White had just joined the game, and all he had done was ask a boatload of questions. Protown, at the time definetely, but i was under the impression that this was just something that White would do at the beginning of the game in order to be put in a positive light. Furthermore, i felt that perhaps after a couple of days he would become less active, as the need to look super pro town would have dissipated somewhat. And, I was right in this assumption.

Never once did i say the mafia weren't scum, or that i considered the mafia any less scummy than in other mafia games

Umm..

The

one real scum

is the serial killer, whereas the 2 mafia look like that

type of scum who are inept

at doing anything important

You said the mafia can't do anything which marks off "any less scummy" and you said the SK is the "One real scum" which marks of "mafia weren't scum"

All I meant was that I thought people were implying that i thought mafia were pro-town this game, and I was not implying this at all. Clearing things up. You can dilly dally in what language I used to portray this(in retrospect, definetely not the most clear) but in the end, this is what i was trying to say, nothing more. YES mafia are scum! YES mafia are scummy! but NO, they cannot NK. No matter what you took from what i said above, these things hold true. Because the mafia can't NK, they ARE less DANGEROUS than normal mafia. it is impossible to prove otherwise.

FOS:Edion0
FOS:CuriousKarmaDog
FOS: Bird1111

Blah,blah,blah. I did not want to FOS any of these people, I did because someone(i believe CKD) said that i was making an analyzation of the game without making any suspects. Generally, when there are suspects, they are put down as "top 3 suspected people" lists. I was trying to do this in another way.


Keep 'em coming.


oh, and perhaps, listen to me and check out Mneme again? I can quote my posts in which I post why he is a possible SK candidate if necessery, and furthermore, I can try to find more SK-tells from him. Thanks.

[Flyinghawk]

All I meant was that I thought people were implying that i thought mafia were pro-town this game, and I was not implying this at all.

this game could be set up as

2 seperate groups of townies

are you kidding Oman? you took that second sentence totally out of context!
I said HYPOTHETICALLY, I even put it in italics so it would be obvious that is the way I meant it. If you refuse to use your brain when reading my responses, at least don't make stupid quotes like that.

What I mean was, if HYPOTHETICALLY, the title of the game was changed to "Baby,wheres the scum?" and the townies were called "townie Group A" and the Mafia were called "townie Group B", the gameplay this time would be no different.

Someone said above "the mafia aren't hapless, There malicious!" because the mafia try to end the townies life.
But in visa versa mode, the townies are maliciously trying to end the mafia's life!

In a game with the mafia having a NK, its obvious that the mafia are bad because they get to murder someone every night. This is not true in this game.

Someone else stated that "the mafia are not less dangerous than normal because they can cause misdirection and false claims"
But the mafia can do this in every game! In most games, the mafia can 'cause misdirection and false claims' AND have a NK.
In this game, they can only 'cause misdirection and false claims'.

so YES, they are less dangerous. Not good, not by any stretch of the imagination, but they aren't AS dangerous.
Anyways, the whole time this has been the point I have been trying to make. If you guys still are unable to understand this and want me to explain it in yet a different way, I will do so. But what I would prefer to do is get back to looking for the Serial Killer.

[Flyinghawk]

Agreed.

Vote Flyinghawk

well at this point in time, I say my proverbial goose is more or less cooked. Nothing I can say will sway your mind?

CKD, I already can tell, is set in his vote; at least I'm pretty positive none of my arguing is going to change his mind.

But mookeh, perhaps you could reconsider your vote? I know its probably bad play to talk directly to you at this point in the game, but perhaps if you gave reasoning behind your vote I would be more inclined to let this go?