Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Setael]

Hello everyone. Hopefully I'll be able to get through this thread by late today. I'll post when I've read it.

[Setael]

I’ve skimmed the entire thread, glazing over a lot of Guardian vs. IH and the more lengthy rebuttals. I plan to go back and read more carefully, but for now I’ll post my initial suspicions.

TP = Thok’s Predecessors
Bold = me

Post 20 TP says he’s impatient and votes someone who was slow to confirm.
Post 45 TP asks if a quicklynch is less suspicious in a nightless game. Unvotes and says he won't vote John until his question gets answered.

This looks very much like scum trying to provide a non-suspicious reason for delaying voting for a scumbuddy.

Post 374

Still formulating my FOS list and reasonings, expect a vote from me tomorrow.

*never provides a FOS list or any reasonings

Post 377

Vote: Occult
Compelling reasons posted by others, but his defeatist attitude toward being killed pushed me over the edge for the vote. This early in the game, that's pretty scummy behavior.

Puts him to -1 because "others have compelling reasons" and for a defeatist attitude which can come from Town just as easily as scum. Looks to me like he knows Occult is going to come up town and he's avoiding saying anything that will make his vote look suspicious.

Post 406 TP cites a possible mafia link of Scruffs - Mustafa – VitR with no reasons. Gives a contrived reason for voting Mustafa (his computer's broken and he didn't ask for a replacement! must be mafia!). Attacks Vitr for pushing for an Occult lynch rather than a majority vote or more activity.

You may remember that this is exactly what TP did when he voted Occult to -1.

The next few posts (414, 419) call TP on this craplogic, but then Skruffs deflects attention in post 420.

Not sure if this was intentional or not, but either way, attention went elsewhere and unless I missed something, it was never addressed. Probably because at this point Miss Moo disappeared.

TP (now Haut Boy) post 535 says suspicious of Aimee but gives no reason.

My guess is because she drew attention to Miss Moo’s telling post 406.

704, 714, 715 – Save the Dragons contribution as TP. Vehemently insists Elias is scum.

Post 861 Thok enters Stage Left as Superman saying he'll review 35 pg. in an hour. What’s your secret? Cuz I'm really struggling with the page bulk...

Post 868 points out what he calls a Town tell from Save the Dragons, and then tries to draw attention away from the fact that he's pointing it out.

Random useful thing to note: STD made a protown tell in 704 (by thinking there were 3 scum rather than 4, with john being one of the three; that implies that he didn't realize that there were more than three scum in this setup [including john]).

Personally, this sounded contrived to me. I think it’s just as likely that scum would pretend to not realize there are 4 left.

Of course, the above doesn't help me at all. .

Really scummy that he would say something that, if true, so obviously DOES help make him look Town, and then try to make us think he didn’t realize that.

Post 871 Guardian points out that:

Thok has said absolutely nothing about IH

Then Thok posts a couple of long posts in which he avoids the question entirely (872, 875) and then finally in 876 he says

Leaning towards IH as town; there's a lot of stuff he's done this game that I like.

“a lot of stuff”... can't help but wonder why he's avoiding giving any detail at all, or any evidence of his suspicions

Now we have something happen that imo is

critical

. For the first time in the game, a little pressure is put on Thok. It's done by Skruffs lightly, more as a joke - smiley face and all in post 900.
Post 901 Thok is overly defensive, especially considering Skruff was so "I'm just having fun, look at my smiley face! So don't take anything I say too seriously." Thok pretty much wigs out, and even FOS's Skruff.

So then post 902

I'll file it away under "Unnecessarily defensive about a simple comment"

More smiley faces from Skruff, instantly removes the pressure and we never hear about it again. Thok's reaction to Skruff's pressure is so scummy to me, I'm really surprised it didn't get more attention from everyone else.

Then Guardian asks Thok to address 890

Instead of answering, we get Post 925 where he says to Tony:

I specifically want you to explain why you called Guardian "overly town" in post 910.

Post 933 guardian asks Thok AGAIN to give an opinion with reasons on IH
Thok doesn't answer, so guardian tries again.
Post 961

Thok, do you have anything to say? I'd love for anyone to comment on my analysis of the first few days, and the conclusion that IH is indeed a great lynch (though MoS is good too).

981 lengthy Thok post – still vague and doesn’t comment decisively about IH either way

post 987 guardian points out that thok still didn’t address IH specifically and asks him to

996 gives a really long reason for MOS/Mustafa suspicions; still doesn’t address IH

Interesting to note that all this evasion is subtle and sneaky enough that noone has picked up on it, and none of you ever FOS'd him. His name has never been included in anyone's groupings of 3 possible mafia and he has never been voted for.

Instead, at this point comments like this in 1029 are made:

At this point, I'm suspicious of everyone, besides maybe thok, who i cant get a read on to save my life. Oman/Romanus and Mustafa/Mos top the list though.

So then in 1057, 1061 Thok says he thinks IH & Guardian both town, no reasons why.

Guardian has to push AGAIN in 1057 for Thok to give reasons.

1066 thok finally answers

I like his interaction with Tony Moonshine.

Which interaction?

I think IH's posts in this game have been self-consistent and filled with useful information about his suspicions.

Which posts?

For the most part, I find the people IH has been going afer to be reasonable

Which people?

. I like that he admitted his part in the Occult lynch. I like that he didn't go after you for your lynch to 4 plan.

This is where I start thinking - ok well he's finally given reasons, though still somewhat vague with no references for replacements (Grrr). But then he asks MoS for a list of suspicions, even though Thok hasn't provided one.

post 1069

No. I do not have a "rough" list. I will not be rushed into making hasty and ill thought-out opinions on anyone's alignment. That won't help anyone. I am surprised that you would even suggest such a thing, with what little information I have.

I think it's a scum tell to ask others for their suspicions, when you have been vague about your own.

Post 1344 is noteworthy, considering for how LONG this game has been, it's the first and only FOS on Thok of the whole game.

So in summary, I think there's a good chance that Thok is mafia, with a possible Thok - IH link, considering how often he subtly avoided addressing IH at all, even when asked directly. Don't know who the third would be, but I definitely need to read more in depth. I'm not asking Thok to explain why TP did what they did since he is not them, but I would appreciate the rest of it being addressed. Though I can't explain my predecessor's motivations behind what they did, it's pretty clear that Thok is gunning for my role and since I know his reasons are baseless, he looks even scummier to me.

I think Thok has gone under the radar the entire game, with no one really suspecting him, and no one voting for him at all. Based on his extreme reaction to Skruff's "I think Thok is mafia" post, I'm sure I'm unleashing his wrath here. That's ok because I think it would be really helpful to see how Thok reacts to a little more pressure.

vote: Thok

[Setael]

I initially read from pg. 45 on to find out the current situation. The main thing that stood out (besides the bombardment of Guardian vs. IH) was the fact that no one was at all suspicious of Thok. Considering he seemed to be the main person who thought my role was scummy, I was curious how he had earned everyone’s trust and what Romanus/Oman had done to look so scummy. What I found, I posted in my first post. It surprised me that there were plenty of things that made Thok look scummy which all in all isn’t that different from anyone else, but the fact that people had called him on it and then let him slide by without responding… that I found odd. So I presented the case on him, with a vote to see how he’d respond. I don’t know for sure that he is scum, but I laid out everything I noticed that got swept under the rug. You can all decide for yourselves if you agree or not.

I resent this:

Your comment about my response to Skruffs is silly.

Your comment about me having only one FOS is also stupid.

Silly and stupid because I’m stupid? Because everything I stated was true, and you calling it stupid doesn’t change that… I may not be reading it how you intended it to be read, but that doesn’t make it stupid or silly.

I didn't expect you to resort to ad hom attacks. That was pretty low.

As for this:

Pretty much Setael attempted to refer to all of Thok's predecessor as a single person, which therefore made all of their seperate posts look worse.

I lumped Thok’s predecessors as TP to keep it less confusing – it never crossed my mind that any of you would think that was all the same person. I still don’t think any of you would think that since you’ve all read the thread and most of you have been here the whole time, so I think this was grasping at straws.

As I said, I need to do a more in-depth reading. I’m sure the main reason the mod had such a hard time finding a replacement is this thread is so long. I pretty much avoided the Guardian-IH posts like the plague, so my only reason for suspecting IH was that Thok seemed to avoid responding when asked about him. I didn’t post suspicions about anyone else because I haven’t had a chance to look closely enough at anyone but Thok. I’ll get right on that…

P.S. Considering how mad you all seemed to be that Oman was going to get modkilled, no one seems particularly grateful that someone was willing to replace in to a FIFTY-FIVE page game. Guardian is the only one that welcomed me at all, and he didn’t hide the fact that he was just trying to get me to not retain Oman’s suspicions on him. Buncha bastards.

[Setael]

First of all, I'd appreciate if IH and Elias would let Thok fight his own battles. He is obviously perfectly capable. Why are you both defending him and answering accusations for him? I think your reactions to my initial post were scummier than Thok's.

I've been dissecting the first pages of the thread and I'm getting scum vibes from a lot more people than Thok, so now Elias at least can address this and let Thok defend himself.

Post 76 says we lost a post where he listed 6 reasons NAR is scum.
Post 79 he gives us all the ones he can remember
Post 86 gives summary of why NAR is scum
90, 92, 96, 103, 105 - all vs. NAR
Post 107

*Waits to attack NAR's replacement*

Just pointing out that Elias was not the only one who thought NAR was scummy

Post 109

I think we should give NaR's replacement a clean slate, I think NaR might have just been messing with us.

Post 116 Elias responds to Mustafa:

I dont like this post. NAR was scummy, and I dont think he was messing with us. If he was just messing with us he wouldnt of replaced out (I know, ive played in game where he just messes with players).
So yeah, I still think NAR was scum, so theres no reason that his replacement should get to be cleared. I think that perhaps you posted this because you were NAR's scumbuddy. its feasible, youre one of the few players that he didnt vote day 1.

Posts 119, 121, 123, 131 – still pushing NAR

Then in Post 154 –Vitr says Elias is too "out in the open" against NAR and Elias pretty much drops the case. We don't hear anything else about it until Post 301

Heh, everyone ignored my analysis of skruffs, plus my requests of him.

(as a side note, Occult didn't ignore it - he agreed, but Elias ignored him.)

So Elias… did you drop the case on NAR because Vitr was calling attention to how “out in the open” you were being with it, or because no one was paying attention to it? I think both of these are more reason that mafia would drop a case on someone than Town. The only other thing you said as a possible reason for dropping it was:

333 –

NAR said several things blatantly scummy, and i think he shouldve been lynched....if it werent for the fact that he was NAR. Any player besides NAR, i think his actions wouldve been considered lynchable offenses. given the fact it was him, I guess its hard to say.

Was this why you dropped your case? Because "he was NAR"? I think you'd like us to assume that later when Skruffs finally responded to your case his very long summary posts made so much sense that you just took Mustafa's advice and cleared NAR/Skruffs of everything you'd ever thought about them, but I think if you were Town you'd have retained some suspicion. If you were Town, you wouldn't have backed off because Mustafa or Vitr thought you should, nor because "that's just NAR" or whatever that was.

When I was looking to see if you ever came back to NAR/Skruffs, I saw Post 552

no need to send a PM. Ive been checking the thread. I just didnt realize til now that I havent posted in a long time. I'll get around to it soon.

You basically admitted to blatant lurking – you had been absent for a loooong time and your previous 2 very brief posts had merely been a promise to re-read and post an analysis that never materialized.

So yeah...

FOS: Elias

Also, there's a glaring contradiction between the following two posts:
Post 109

I think we should give NaR's replacement a clean slate, I think NaR might have just been messing with us.

Post 132

NAR told me when he asked me to replace for him that he wanted to be replaced because he thought it was the best thing he could do for town.

Either he left because he was was trying to help the Town OR he was messing with us. I don't see how both can possibly be true. Looks to me like Skruffs was trying to shrug off suspicion (understandable given the situation), and Mustafa was trying to help Skruffs shrug off suspicion (not nearly as understandable given the situation). I've never seen someone insist that a replacement be given a clean slate. What was the motivation behind doing this? It succeeded in getting the spotlight off Skruffs, so if that was Mustafa's goal, it worked. Maybe they're both scum, or maybe Mustafa saw the NAR/Skruff vote as potentially looming (at the time it could definitely have went that way with both Elias and Occult at NAR's throat) and he was setting up a future case. I don't think Mustafa would buddy up with a scum partner so blatantly so I'm less inclined to think they're both scum.

Mustafa's play in which he was posting just enough to float by, offering no substance or basis for suspicions was summed up by Occult in Post 318. I'm going to read more of the thread before I post anything more about Mustafa, but basically

FOS: Mustafa

.

TonyMoonshine's play was similar to Mustafa's - posting random "contrived to look pro-Town" statements that had no substance and no suspicion.
Post 81

Ok, when someone is impatient what does that usually mean? With a quick scan of the game this is all I have for now.

Post 83

No, I understand that's a random vote and it's how games are started. I've read things about quick lynch and who it benefits, so for those who want a quick lynch or just seem impatient what information does that provide?

Post 108

ok, so players register to play or replace, then become bored with the game and just drop out? does anyone else think this is not good?

Post 114

I know we lost some days because of the forum crash, but I had a early vote for John that I can't find now. Did we lose some random posts also?

Post 136

So, why is he allowed to play in any game? This is my second game and I don't know anything about other players previous games and how they act.

Then when he gets called out for laying low....
Post 155

I don't think I'm "laying low" I try to jump in the discussion with questions, but get little or no reply. My questions have been more general so maybe that has something to do with it.

Every one of these seems written with a goal of looking pro-Town without actually doing anything pro-Town at all.

FOS: Tony

So maybe Tony-Mustafa-Elias... or Thok-Elias-Mustafa.... or maybe I've only hit on one or two of them. There's an awful lot of material to go over, and I'm far from finished. I need to look closer at Mustafa I think.

[Setael]

*deep sigh*

Clearly I didn't see that Mustafa was no longer with us - I think considering the number of replacements it's a little understandable to get confused. I'll give you that I should've checked the player list more closely before that last post. I didn't notice he was replaced. And then replaced again. And then lynched.

So reading the last 10 pages pretty much just gave me the players' suspicions on each other. I can hardly reiterate those, and any opinions I gain from them could be totally off since I have no way to know which of you are telling the truth. So I go back to try and get a read on people myself without being influenced by current players' opinions on each other. This becomes quite confusing with all the replacements, plus several pages missing that are still getting referred to. This obviously is doing me no good because when I point out anything I notice, it's misconstrued as me just trying to "find something as scummy as possible on every player."

I think instead of trying to go through the thread, I'll just work with what's happened since I joined.

My main goal in voting for Thok was to see what he'd do if he was under the microscope for once. Clearly you're all so convinced he's Town that no one's willing to put pressure on him. One vote from me is hardly going to do it. So either he's got you all fooled and nothing I say is going to change it, or he's Town. I'm not going to remove my vote because I didn't find any reason you should all be trusting him so implicitly, and rather than giving me your reasons for trusting him, I get:

If you would actually read his replies instead of just looking for something scummy against him, which you've just admitted, then perhaps you would see why he seems more protown.

Maybe you didn't catch where I said I had read it and didn't see why you're all assuming he's not mafia. Is it really so hard to give me your reasons for assuming he's Town?
Also, stop putting words in my mouth, IH. I never "admitted" to doing that because that's not what I did. I went back to find how he gained all of your trust and avoided ever being suspected or voted.

Your comment about my response to Skruffs is silly. I want to shut down any stupid attack before people start trying to repeat it. Heck, if I hadn't responded to it, you'd probably be complaining about me not responding to that comment. Moreover, I want to know why you consider it an "overreaction": my reaction was to point out a previous situation that was a counterexample to Skruffs argument, and to point out something that I felt was a mild scum tell in his response.

You may remember that Skruffs said he thought it was an overreaction. I agree with him and think the FOS on him was totally unwarranted. You can say it's stupid all you want, but I'm not reading your reaction like you wanted it to be taken. Maybe that makes you mad. Tough break.

So her conclusion is automatically everyone is scum, as there is nothing indicating anymore than around two or three of their motivations. The only one who she did was Thok, and apparently that was because people thought he was protown (which baffles me)

Now you're saying I did it BECAUSE people thought he was protown. No wonder you're baffled. If you would quit twisting my words and making false assumptions, you'd see that the way I went about reading the thread makes sense for a thread so long.

Given that Mustafa is gone, my main suspicions lie with Thok, Elias and Tony.

[Setael]

EBWOP: That middle quote is Thok. And I meant to add IH to my list of suspicious characters. I'm still avoiding whatever issues Guardian has with you, but I find you scummy for fighting Thok's battles for him and for twisting my words to make me look bad.

FOS: IH

[Setael]

I find them rather LONG. I'll get to it, but it seriously hurts my head to think about it.

[Setael]

Ok so I looked closer at your FOS on Skruffs.

Mild FOS for knowing that scum can't talk with each other (something I needed to check the first post to verify); while it's public information, I feel that you would be more likely to know that information from your role PM and less likely to have read the PM in the first post.

This makes no sense to me. Isn't that pretty much the definition of a nightless game - scum not being able to talk? It looks to me like you took something that everyone would automatically assume and tried to make it look like something only mafia would know.

I'm trying to find somewhere where ANY of you gave a reason that you're trusting Thok so implicitly. All I've found so far is:

At this point, I'm suspicious of everyone, besides maybe thok, who i cant get a read on to save my life.

And because you can't get a read on him, you trust him as pro-Town. Makes no sense. In fact it's reminiscent of:

Leaning towards IH as town; there's a lot of stuff he's done this game that I like.

"They've done a lot of stuff I like;" "They just feel pro-Town"; "I can't get a read on them so I'm assuming they're pro-Town;" and "Everyone thinks he's pro-Town." None of these are good enough reasons. Maybe I've missed posts where all of you explained what Thok has done that's seemed so pro-Town. If so, please point them out. And if you never have given reasons, please do so now.

[Setael]

I find [Thok's] innopportunism extremely townish, because attacking guardian and him voting him for it would be an easy bus that would probably benefit him as scum more, and I think Thok knows that.

IH - do you still feel the same in light of Thok's Post 1383?

[Setael]

OK, and I want to see how she catches up, her not catching up before making the comments was a bit scummy imo.

Wow. In the future I’ll be sure to read all 55 pages and then re-read so that I can formulate a post before I ever make a comment – if that means the players wait for a post from me for 3 weeks, so be it.

@Thok... I find these last few pages very insightful, since it's the first time you aren't being given a free ride as obvTown.

So me finding you a higher suspect makes it so that I need to die?

It seems to me that now that someone besides me has vocalized suspicion of Thok, he's acting much differently than he was when everyone was trusting him so completely. He did seem to push awfully hard on a Guardian wagon, and only removed his vote once Vitr opposed it. He said it was to let the rest of us respond, but did you really think two of us were going to vote for him out of the blue? I think it's much more likely that after vitr's post you realized that it looked scummy and decided to back off.

If Thok was scum, it'd be a much more likely scenario he was trying to defend a townie (me) so when I come up, and Guardian's reasons are proven to be really really trivial, then Thok would come up in a better light.

This I can see. I haven't read Guardian's reasons yet, but it does seem more likely that scumThok would defend IHTown rather than IHScum.

In other news

vote: Guardian

Let's get this going.

That's your reason for voting? To "get this thing going?" I'm undecided about Guardian, but I certainly wouldn't vote him this late in the game just to get the wagon moving.

Curious. If I'm scum, then why did I jump off my Setael/Omanus case (that I had been pushing all day) to start going after you?

I know this question was meant for Guardian, but since it's about me I think I have a right to respond.

My guess is because I was drawing attention to the fact that maybe you weren't as perfectly pro-Town as everyone thought. You were able to perfectly distract attention away from that by starting a wagon on Guardian, but in order to do that you had to drop the case against me, at least long enough to focus on Guardian. Granted, that reason hinges on Thok coming up scum. I don't know that for sure, but I'm confident enough that I'll keep my vote on him.

[Setael]

Basically, his past actions gave me a pro-town vibe and I don't think the evidence against him is that strong. The slip isn't that convincing and the fact that his arguments aren't always that good doesn't necessarily mean he's scum.

I agree. Thok's case on Guardian seems kind of weak, especially if you throw the use of the word "bus" out the window, since it seemed pretty obvious he meant "wagon." Maybe Thok thought we were all sufficiently annoyed with Guardian’s lengthy and drawn out IH tirades that we’d be willing to jump onto a Guardian wagon. Apparently Tony was the only one that worked on. Elias at least seemed to have a reason of his own.

Question: how do you think my play has been different? (Given that one of your attacks on me was not being specific enough about my comments, I think this is a valid question.)

You started pushing at Guardian with an almost non-existent case. Have you done this previously in the game? If so, I missed it.

Second question: are you ever going to say anything about my responses to your questions? Or are you just going to ignore most of them, but keep pushing at me anyways?

I read your posts 872 and 1268 which turns out to be your case against Romanus/Oman. I can’t explain his actions any more than you can explain everything I pointed out about your predecessors in 1353. Because we’re not them.
Other than that, your Guardian wagon has served to keep you at the top of my scum list, with Tony holding strong at second place. I still have yet to work out why you slid under everyone's radar for so long. The ones who replied said your arguments seemed pro-Town but I guess I'm going to have to go through and find examples of this myself, since no one has bothered to provide any.

In fact...the one solid reason given by IH:

I find his [Thok's] innopportunism extremely townish, because attacking guardian and him voting him for it would be an easy bus that would probably benefit him as scum more, and I think Thok knows that.

sort of dissolved once Thok started the Guardian wagon. Thok ended up doing the thing that IH pointed out would most benefit Thokscum. Please also notice that IH said "bus" here when I think he meant "wagon." Unless of course he knows for sure that both Guardian and Thok are scum, in which case he may have meant bus.

[Setael]

Do you believe Guardian had a good reason for FOSing you for not knowing that Mustafa was dead, especially as he hadn't been interested in looking at you earlier?

I was not surprised Guardian FOS'd me for a post in which I named as one of my prime suspects a player who is not even still in the game. Guardian had previously expressed annoyance that I hadn't read his IH arguments. I, of course, disagree with him that me not reading the entire thread in depth before posting is scummy. However, I can understand him being frustrated because of it, especially since one of the things I was procrastinating reading was his case against IH. I don't think I

deserved

a FOS for it, but I don't think it was scummy that he did it. If he would've voted me, then I probably would've read into it more like you did.

Do you believe that Guardian had a good reason for attacking Elias?

I think Elias' reaction to the modkill announcement was definitely worthy of a raised eyebrow. I am not the only one here that knows for sure that I am Town. There are three others, and I do think Elias’ reaction made it look like he was so sure about my role that he could be one of those three trying to look pro-Town. However, I can also see that Elias’ reaction may have been just as he said – he had a very pro-Town read on Oman and reacted like he did to the possible modkill not because he

knew

Oman was Town, but because he had a strong Town read. So... I don't think the argument is as strong as Guardian seems to think it is, but I also don't think it's totally unreasonable either.

[Setael]

Elias - unless I'm misunderstanding something somewhere, your post 1333 right after the possible modkill announcement seems to contradict what you are saying about it now.

Um, yeah,this point is under the assumption that Oman is town. Alright. Ive had a town feel for him since the reread.

And now you say:

When did the fact that I agreed with that point at a later time change into me thinking "oman is town, i will assume a modkill is bad"? Somehow you seem to have transformed one of my statements into a totally different one. My first reaction at the site of a modkill is "oh shit, stop the modkill". Sorry if thats wrong.

I don't really agree with the argument that this means you

know

Oman was Town because you are mafia, but I do think Post 1333 was you admitting your reaction to the mod's announcement was mostly because you thought Oman was Town, and Post 1449 seems to deny that.

[Setael]

I can understand some of the players' frustrations. Vitr, Tony and Guardian have all vocalized it and others have probably thought it. Skruffs' solution seems to be to only spend enough time on this game to not get modkilled. Normally if you don't have time to keep up with a game you can be replaced. However, we're all kind of stuck with this one for the duration because with a thread this long, it will be virtually impossible to find replacements. The only reason I replaced in is I wasn't smart enough to check the length of the thread before I offered.

So anyway... I don't know what the solution is. I'm trying to keep up with the current posts while also reading the back thread. The deadline isn't until Sept. 19 so that's plenty of time for everyone to just spend as much time on this game as they can. However, if you're in a hurry for it to END I think you're outta luck.

To answer Elias' question... NAR seemed really scummy to me but everyone seemed willing to completely forgive all of it when Skruffs replaced in, and if you completely ignore everything his predecessors did, Skruffs has seemed pretty pro-Town in general to me. He has been blatantly lurking since I joined, but I don't necessarily think that's scummy. Here are the two posts Skruffs has contributed since I replaced in:

Thok asks Skruffs if he has anything to add to the game, and less than an hour later, Skruffs posts this:

I really don't, Thok, which is why I'm keeping quiet.
I was most interestedi n OMan, and right after I posted about how he and VitR seem to be linked together, two things happened -
Oman dropped out of the game
and VitR started getting BACK into the game.

I am half tempted to lynch IH just to force Guardian to focus on someone else, but it seems he already has moved his focus onto Elias.
Elias and Guardian have been buddies for a long time, mostly in their agreement about me.. so it's interested that the two of them would start cannibalizing each other.

Elias's comment about finding three scumin 17 days is Also intriguing, because, well, it mostly is made up of mistakes. IT harkens back to the days of John asking if scum could nightkill. Elias's response to it - both in pretending Oman is definitely town, and in misconstruing how the game is set up, could be a sneaky diversion.

17 Is my lucky number, though (believe it), which kind of wants me to be suspicious of Oman even more.

One thing I will say is that for saying the reason he has been lurking is he has nothing to add, that was some pretty decent content. Except for the lucky number thing. I hope you don't really base your suspicions on that type of thing. But I guess if everyone did, this game would end much faster.

@Skruffs: Any other reasons for the lurking? It doesn't really work to say "I haven't been posting because I have nothing to say" and then make some noteworthy accusations and comments.

So then, Thok asks for Skruffs to be prodded and not long after he posts:

I haven't been prodded, and I am behind a few pages. IT's not due to lack of interest, but more because of lack of energy and time. That Frezno game sucks up all my mental bandwidth.

Okay. So Guardian accused Thok of bussing him.

Thok, you are curious who to go after if Guardian turned up scum. The answer, of course, would be you - or else the whole point of voting him for saying 'you bussed him' (the implication that you and him are both scum) - is null and void. Do you follow?

The whole term 'bus' comes from 'throwing under a bus', which in most mafia terms was originally (as far as I am aware) used to represent someone who will betray/backstab/exploit one player for their own gain. IT's typically used to describe one mafia voting another mafia player to appear town to everyone else.

At least he no longer seems to be absolutely, irrevocably trusting Thok like it seemed everyone was when I joined, but I have to wonder if that's because I pointed it out or because he really would suspect Thok if Guardian turned up scum. Or both. Or neither.

In summary, at the moment I am neutral on Skruffs.

[Setael]

I'm nearly through reading the thread and then I'll post my notes. I wanted to address the current Elias situation, in light of a few things I saw in my read-through that surprised me.
Post 1054 -

I'm still suspicious of Oman, (through suspicions of Romanus)

1178 –

Alright, thats me convinced. Oman and Adel are my top suspects Guardian (I have been suspicious of Ramanus all game, and thus Oman, and Adels post added to my previous suspicion for mustafa/MoS). I'll wait for adel to defend herself, and I guess claim. If it's not satisfying I plan to put down the -a vote.

1263 –

On the other hand, I've been suspicious of Oman/Romanus all game, and would like to see him lynched.

I didn't expect to see anything like that, since it directly contradicts what Elias said about Oman right after his reaction to the modkill announcement.
post 1333

Um, yeah,this point is under the assumption that Oman is town. Alright. Ive had a town feel for him since the reread.

And what he's saying now...

I'm saying that when I looked back on my post, the only way my points were viable and sensical was to assume Oman was town. I didnt think this when I made the post, the comment was purely retrospect.

So I read what Elias posted after his read-through, expecting him to have given a big explanation on why all of a sudden he thinks Oman is Town. And, oddly enough, in his re-read analysis he doesn't say anything about Oman. Nothing.

Post 1312

After rereading the first 21 pages, I get the following impressions (in light of known alignments):

BM/Guardian is probably scum. Tony and Skruffs are probably town.
I plan to expand on these opinions tomorrow after I finish rereading. Trust me, there are reasons behind my thoughts, I just need to get around to posting them/finishing my reread.

If he thought Oman was very pro-Town in the reread, I think he'd have mentioned it here.
Post 1321 -

Up to page 42...opinions about tony and skruffs have changed more towards neutral, guardian/BM still seem like scum to me. More tomorrow, including my reasoning and findings.

Post 1323 - Posts his findings. Doesn't mention Oman once. His next post is when he expresses his frustration at the possible modkill.

To go from "I've been suspicious of Oman all game and I'd like to see him lynched" full circle to assuming he's Town is pretty huge, and I'd have expected some reasoning behind it... or for him to at least MENTION it in one if not all of his posts detailing his reread. It doesn't add up. Maybe in Elias' desire to look pro-Town by being upset at the mod's announcement, he just slipped and forgot he was supposed to be thinking Oman was scummy. His "knowledge" that Oman was Town came through accidentally, and after that, the rest was backpedaling.

I really can't see EliasTown thinking Oman seemed pro-Town in his reread which went against Elias' stance the entire game... and then just neglecting to mention it until later when, like he said "the only way my points were viable and sensical was to assume Oman was town."

*More general post on entire thread forthcoming.

[Setael]

First of all

unvote

. Thok is still on my scum list, but now that I've been able to digest the entire thread, he is lower than he was.

Also, neither Elias nor Tony acknowledged my suspicions brought up in Post 1365. Possibly they just saw that I didn’t realize Mustafa was dead, so they didn’t bother to read the rest of that post. Please disregard my suspicions of Mustafa and respond to the rest.

For the reasons in 1365 (dropping his case on NAR that he'd been so adamant about because...why? Vitr told him it looked fishy... and "That's just NAR" and then a lot of blatant lurking) as well as 1464, Elias is now at the top of my scum list. I just don't buy that he had such a huge change of heart on Oman and then didn't bother to mention it when he reported his re-read findings.

I'm also suspicious of Skruffs after the read. Post 563 Skruffs says (after Guardian posts a scum list)

I mean, we alreayd know IH is scum,a nd John, and we know that Occult is town. So jamming six other people into a mass in the middle doesn't really decipher things.

Guardian points out that Skruffs said "we already

know

IH is scum" which would only be true if Skruffs is mafia, unless it was just a typo.
573 Skruffs responds - doesn't see the need to correct saying he

knows

IH is scum - just clarifies that he is building a case on IH and doesn't want to vote until then.

The case on IH is forthcoming. WHen I have something I can definitely say is the root for my suspicion, I will project that into a post, with a vote. But I'm not going to sling votes just because I think it.. that's not very responsible.

575 skruffs presents his case against IH – still doesn’t vote him
576 IH responds to Skruffs case by saying

(Bleh I know I'm playing this game poorly, I got apathetic after day 1)

post 629 Skruffs drops IH to the bottom of his scum list.

Then the vote hopping begins.
Post 787

Vote : Mustafa
I'm feeling fairly confident in this. But not raelly.

A couple of posts later, he votes for Mustafa AGAIN. Not sure why…

Ironically, in Post 809 Skruffs says to IH:

IH - o ye of votehopping majesty

and then posts 813, 817, 821, 885, 897 are all of Skruffs vote hopping. And not only vote hopping, but changing his vote without giving any reason or explanation.

Post 897 – Skruffs finally votes IH – gives no reason other than highlighting in red that IH stayed on Occult wagon. Interesting to note that he didn't vote until after thok’s post 876 which made it nice and safe to do so vote IH without having to worry about it going anywhere.

Post 976 -

Vote : Mustafa
There, he's more scummy than Guardian, so, I'd rather to see him go than the other.

Notice Skruffs never gave reasons for dropping his IH vote – if he’d have pushed for IH, surely Guardian would’ve jumped on and Vitr had said in 926 he’d vote IH.

The way I see it, there are 2 explanations for Skruff’s play here.
1) He’s scum and he’s bussing IH (post 576 leans toward this).
2) He’s scum and he knows IH is town, so he throws together a half-hearted case against IH and then doesn’t vote. Wouldn’t want to look bad when IH comes up Town.

Now, after reading the entire thread, I tend to agree with Thok and anyone else who agreed with the Raging Rabbit theory. I think it's most likely that both IH

and

Guardian are Town. Guardian seems sincere in his insistence that IH is scum, but IH's defense and explanation to everything Guardian brings up seems quite sound.

If that is true and IH is Town, then it’s scenario #2. Either way, Skruffs never convincingly voted or really pushed to get IH lynched which is odd considering how sure he was that if John/YB was mafia, that meant IH was, too. How can you say “we already

know

IH is scum" and then not follow through with a convincing vote?

Other random scummy hits:
Post 769

My reasons for not voting Occult were pretty lame to say the least. That's why he went after me. This is not a reason to find him scummy.

Tony promises reasons for his suspicions on Guardian in Post 914; never provides them.
Says he’ll answer Thok’s questions in 1163; never does.

Then in Post 1233 Guardian says to Tony:

Adel is a good candidate, and IH I think is still better than you, and I could see Adel being scum with you, but I am tempted to try and start a last minute wagon on you because you are so scummy right now...

So Guardian threatens a wagon on Tony, and what does Tony do in the very next post? He hammers Adel. Scumtastic. Still hasn’t explained it.

Post 696

Tony I have no real read of, so I'd prefer him dead to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Did you really mean that? I want to assume you were being sarcastic, but I'm not really sure...

Post 889

Could you give me a summary of what you find scummy about Skruffs. Also, you should take into account that Skruffs also can behave weirdly.

Makes it tough to give a summary/case – anything can be excused as “behaving weirdly”

Post 1046

I consider the current MOS-Skruffs argument a protown point for Skruffs. Skruffs falls into the definate protown category for me.

@Thok: Did you change your mind about this when MOS came up town?

Post 1046

MOS-why should we disregard what you predecessor did? He might be a newb (and I think you're overpressing this point, since your claimed lack of reread should theoretically keep you from being able to assess mustafa's newbness-what do you think mustafa did that should be cosidered newbish?), but inaddition mustafa being a newb doesn't rule out mustafa being newb scum.

*And yet it’s ok to disregard what Skruff’s predecessor did? I don’t hear any complaints that Skruffs was given a clean slate.

So my scum list is as follows:
Elias
Skruffs
Tony / Thok - possible IH if I'm wrong and all Skruffs' chaos was bussing. Not really convinced about that, though.
So...

vote: Elias

. I'd also be happy with a Skruffs lynch, but once again I'm the only one who feels that way. I think Tony is very likely also scum, and then if I'm wrong about one of my three which is definitely possible, I still think there's a good chance Thok is scum.

[Setael]

Can you please direct me to the posts? I must have just missed them, and would appreciate you giving me post #'s.

And... can you explain your hammer? kthnx.

[Setael]

Skruffs - you say you're not up to date on this game. Do you plan on getting up to date? If you're not willing to see this game as a priority, I think you should get replaced. Unfortunately that's not likely with a 60 pg. thread so I'll just ask you nicely to try to stay up to date on the thread.

You must have missed the whole john/yb thing. John got 'called out' by vitamin r, first thing day one, some discussion was had about it, and last minute the wagon shifted to occult. I saw the shift and realized that scum was pushing it. Occult got lynched anyways, so the next day i started up a new wagon on john, and it went through.

I agree with you that this is why everyone else has you on their pro-Town list. Unfortunately for you, you weren’t the one who started that John wagon – it was Vitr, as you said. Sure, after Occult was lynched you could’ve hoped the John wagon would go away but I think you knew that wasn’t likely. I think you’re smart enough to know it was inevitable that someone would bring up the John wagon again. It’s just good play for a mafia member to be the one that brings it back up, knowing someone else would’ve anyway. It’s a good way to look pro-Town. And it worked.

This is a large part of why I think that if you are scum, IH is town. It was enough to bus John, and it earned you a fairly solid Town reputation. So why bus IH as well, if IH was mafia? I find it more likely that you thought Guardian and Vitr were going to be successful in convincing the Town to lynch IH, so you supported it just enough to not look suspicious (you kind of had to since you had agreed that if John came up scum, IH was scum with him) but not enough to really vote convincingly and get IH lynched, because you knew he’d come up Town. It makes sense that you wouldn’t want people to be able to look back and find really strong support for his wagon. That’s possibly a reason for all the vote hopping, and never really sticking to your guns on IH.

Also - what was my post 568 in response to? You are making errors of omission.

Post 568 was Tony Moonshine and had nothing to do with you… did you just pull a number out of a hat to use to accuse me of omitting something?

When did I get a clean slate? Look at Guardian, elias, and someone else (oman I think) who all suggested I be lynched for NAR's actions when there is NO RECORD remaining of what NAR did, thus, nothing to quote, respond to, etc. again, error of omission.

I disagree. Mustafa (I think it was) suggested you get a clean slate and though Elias balked at it, no one ever went so far as to get a wagon going on you. They were expressing frustration about NAR’s actions, but there was never a serious attempt to hold you responsible for it. You were able to get rid of any lingering NAR suspicions through your actions on the John wagon. If you are indeed mafia, that was really good strategy on your part.

But I do like the whole IH conceding he was playing a bad game - while be accused of being scum. I also like how you then attempt to clear IH (in part) by using my 'half assed case' as part of the reason for clearing him. Either I'm scum and ih is town or II'm scum and bussing him. There's no other possibilities, huh?

I recognize that I could be wrong and you could be Town. I just don’t think I am. Your response to my case on you and your vote on me solidified my suspicions of you. You admitted to not being updated on the thread, which means you probably didn't bother to read anything else I've posted. You simply saw that I voted for you, threw together a quick excuse and voted for me right back. That is exactly what I would expect from a mafia member who is not making the game a priority.

[Setael]

I forgot I hadn't voted Skruffs. I should have.

Unvote; vote: Skruffs

.

[Setael]

I think it only looks OMGUS to you because you're so sure IH is mafia which doesn't jive with my arguments. In order for you to consider Skruffs, you're going to have to see past your IH vendetta, which at this point doesn't even seem possible for you.

I still suspect Elias, which does make me wonder about Thok's defense of him. At this point I don't think both Thok and Elias could be mafia, since I don't think they would be teaming up so blatantly if they were. I'm not really sure about Elias enough though to say it's definitely him and not Thok. I'd like to hear him respond to my posts. I'd also appreciate everyone doing a reread of Skruffs. There's still time before the deadline to look at everyone and make sure we're lynching one of the mafia.

[Setael]

I can definitely see TonyScum. His posts 1469 and 1471 left much to be desired. Skruffs is higher on my scum list, but Tony has refused to acknowledge or respond to any of the points I have brought up against him. Any way I slice it, I think Tony is on the Dark Side.

Unvote; vote: TonyMoonshine

[Setael]

TonyMoonshine's play was similar to Mustafa's - posting random "contrived to look pro-Town" statements that had no substance and no suspicion.
Post 81

Ok, when someone is impatient what does that usually mean? With a quick scan of the game this is all I have for now.

Post 83

No, I understand that's a random vote and it's how games are started. I've read things about quick lynch and who it benefits, so for those who want a quick lynch or just seem impatient what information does that provide?

Post 108

ok, so players register to play or replace, then become bored with the game and just drop out? does anyone else think this is not good?

Post 114

I know we lost some days because of the forum crash, but I had a early vote for John that I can't find now. Did we lose some random posts also?

Post 136

So, why is he allowed to play in any game? This is my second game and I don't know anything about other players previous games and how they act.

Then when he gets called out for laying low....
Post 155
Tony wrote:

I don't think I'm "laying low" I try to jump in the discussion with questions, but get little or no reply. My questions have been more general so maybe that has something to do with it.

Every one of these seems written with a goal of looking pro-Town without actually doing anything pro-Town at all.

FOS: Tony

In other news

vote: Guardian

Let's get this going.

That's your reason for voting? To "get this thing going?" I'm undecided about Guardian, but I certainly wouldn't vote him this late in the game just to get the wagon moving.

Other random scummy hits:
Post 769

My reasons for not voting Occult were pretty lame to say the least. That's why he went after me. This is not a reason to find him scummy.

Tony promises reasons for his suspicions on Guardian in Post 914; never provides them.
Says he’ll answer Thok’s questions in 1163; never does.

Then in Post 1233 Guardian says to Tony:

Adel is a good candidate, and IH I think is still better than you, and I could see Adel being scum with you, but I am tempted to try and start a last minute wagon on you because you are so scummy right now...

So Guardian threatens a wagon on Tony, and what does Tony do in the very next post? He hammers Adel. Scumtastic. Still hasn’t explained it.

My posts have been not so much questions for you, as things you have done I have found scummy that you have yet to refute. Above all, I would like you to explain the Adel hammer. This is probably my #1 reason for believing you are scum right now, especially considering it came right after Guardian's post 1233 threatening a wagon on you.

[Setael]

You weren't in the game at that point and I don't think you have a right to comment on them.

Alrighty, then.... thanks for the dismissal. Picture me zipping my mouth up and throwing away the key. I'll let you boys discuss. I'm happy with my vote where it is.

[Setael]

@Vitr - Can you give me your reasons for your vote on me? Is that a vote left over from Romanus/Oman, or are you voting for something I have done since replacing? Skruffs' vote I think is pure OMGUS but if you actually have a reason then I'd like to hear it.

@Skruffs - You said in post 1505 that you think vitr is a better lynch than Tony. Is that only because of vitr saying he's willing to vote Tony, or do you have any other reasons?

[Setael]

Ok... Vitr, can you give us the reasons you think Tony is Town? That might be helpful.

[Setael]

Vitr is seeming more and more opportunistic with his vote. He said he was going to vote Tony, but then changed his mind as soon as Tony got defensive. Now he says he'd vote IH if somebody else gets more of a wagon going. His vote is on me, but he can't give any real reason why. If he thinks IH is scum, why is his vote not on IH? Why say he is willing to vote IH, but then not do it? He seems to be playing it safe with the noncommital attitude, and I feel like he is trying to subtly distract and guide the lynch so that he doesn't have to take any of the heat if someone comes up Town.

Skruffs isn't much better. The only reason he has for voting me is because I presented a case on him.

[Setael]

It vaguely amuses me that I haven't posted anything in this game for 5 days, and yet nobody is calling for my head over that.

Well Thok, maybe you're feeling a little bit of what I've been feeling - annoyance that no matter what you do, everyone has decided to trust you implicitly. I'm not a bit surprised that none of them called you out for not posting and I've certainly seen that me doing it over and over is not going to do any good.

I thought about voting IH just to call Vitr's bluff, since I didn't think he would really vote IH any more than he ever planned to really vote Tony. Maybe I'm wrong and Vitr would vote for IH, but when IH came up Town I'm sure he knows he could easily push all the blame onto Guardian. I still think IH is Town and Skruffs is scum, and Vitr's last few posts have started me thinking that I could be wrong that the third is either Elias or Thok. Maybe it's Tony-Skruffs-Vitr, but regardless of who the third one is, I'm perfectly happy with my Tony vote.

[Setael]

Guardian maybe you missed where I said I don’t think IH is scum. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that you could be wrong about him? You could be right that Vitr would vote for IH, but if so it's just as likely that it's because Vitr is scum and knows IH would come up Town. Plus why did Vitr merely say he was WILLING to vote? Why didn't he just vote? He admitted that his reasons for voting me are pretty weak, so why not change his vote to IH if he thinks IH is scum. I don't think I need to change my vote to prove that he's being opportunistic. His reasons for not voting Tony are garbage as far as I'm concerned. He says Tony seems too obviously scummy and that "his desperation seemed sincere." Well if that desperation was so sincere, I'd think Tony would have posted at least once in the last few days. Tony is just lurking again, which I think is the last thing a pro-Town player would do this close to a deadline when he has the most votes.

Skruffs’ reasons are even worse than Tony's. He tells us that after briefly considering the Tony case, he is unsure about it. 2 points for being as noncommittal as possible. As Thok noticed, Skruffs only started posting because I pointed out his lurking and even now is only posting just enough content to stay neutral on almost every single person.

If Tony comes up Town, which I highly doubt, then I will rethink my scum list and look at IH again. But if he comes up scum, I know where I'll be looking.

[Setael]

Setael's positioning on Tony I also dislike

Can you explain what you mean by this? I think Tony is scum, and so I have voted for him. What about that do you not like? You hate, hate, hate IH's vote on Tony, but what about Thok? Do you also dislike his "positioning" whatever that means?

You say you don't like my entrance into the game but only speak in generalities. I think you're just SO sure IH is scum that you're forgetting to think logically, and just voting in anger for anyone who doesn't agree with you. Maybe you should keep in mind that I'm not the only one who doesn't think IH is definitely scum. Seems to me like you should be frustrated with those who DO agree with you about IH and yet still aren't voting him (Vitr comes to mind).

[Setael]

As it stands, all that has to happen for me to be lynched is for Tony to change his vote to me, which even though he seems sick of this game, I imagine he'll be motivated to do.

So since in the current situation my lynch is imminent, I may as well give the Town a little more info once I turn up Town. So for now, I'm going to see what happens if I

unvote; vote: IH

[Setael]

First come, first served I believe. Which means if Vitr doesn't come through with his "I'm ready to vote IH" statement, Guardian will be the one lynched.

I think both Guardian and IH are Town, but I am the only one I KNOW is Town, so rather than guarantee a mislynch by leaving my head on the chopping block, I'm willing to give Vitr the chance to prove he was telling the truth about wanting to vote IH. If he doesn't vote IH, we're likely losing a Townie, but at least we'll know that Vitr was bluffing.

[Setael]

IH doesn't seem to be paying very close attention. I have not kept it a secret that I am voting IH to call Vitr's bluff. He said he was going to vote IH if a wagon got going, and he has no decent reason to be voting me so I started a wagon for him.

Mod, can we please get a prod on Vitr before the deadline?

[Setael]

I mainly think if you were calling his bluff instead of wanting me to get lynched, you would have voted me a little earlier than around 24 hours to deadline or less.

I was forced to move my vote or get lynched, so I opted to kill two birds with one stone - see if Vitr was full of it when he said he'd vote IH, and avoid a mislynch by taking myself off the chopping block.

Evidently Vitr isn't going to check in in time (that or he's avoiding posting) and at this point it wouldn't even matter if he did. So I'm putting my vote back where it belongs.

Unvote; vote Tony

[Setael]

Looks like it's up to you, Thok.

If you choose to vote for me, at least give a decent reason. None of the 3 who have their vote on me so far have bothered to do so.

[Setael]

Vitr has already "conveniently" avoided weighing in at all, and therefore escaped any responsibility for a mislynch. This close to the deadline, I refuse to believe he has not checked the thread. I think it will be more informative for the Town to make Thok choose. Why should I let you slide through a deadline like Vitr has, with the choice made for you, free and clear of all blame?

I was also hoping to be able to check back and change my vote depending on what Thok did. Why vote before him when it frees him of all responsibility? Instead of voting, he smoothly avoided it. I don't even know who I think is scum anymore - every last one of you seem scummy. With the votes the way they stand we're almost guaranteed to go into lylo tomorrow with all 3 scum still alive.

[Setael]

I think both Guardian and IH are Town

It is getting incredibly aggravating that people aren't paying attention to the thread and then posting as if they are. Thok evidently missed this statement, so I guess I should have repeated myself even though it was only a few hours later. Tony hasn't bothered to read all my posts where I clearly outlined who I think is scum. Vitr doesn't even bother to check the thread at deadline, and Elias and Skruffs are both barely paying attention.

@Thok: Either you lied about reading my other games or you lied about the way I posted when replacing in, because what you said was utterly false. All the ones I replaced into were somewhere between 10-20 pages long when I replaced in, which makes it a lot easier to read the entire thread before posting. And besides that, looking over my first posts - they're all pretty similar. By the end of the read, there's always one person I feel strongest about and I end up focusing on them. I post about my other suspicions as well (like I did here) but mainly about the one that sticks out the most. And as I'm sure you're aware, I've got to be Town in SOME of my games, right? Maybe this isn't the best way to replace into a game, but regardless it's been the same in all my games which makes what you said a lie. I do have to wonder about your motivations for saying something like that so close to the deadline. I guess you're thinking there's not time for people to check for themselves? Maybe you hoped there wasn't time for me to point out that it wasn't true before I tied? You definitely seem to be trying to make sure I'm the one that goes.

Regardless, it seems a mislynch is inevitable so I may as well make Simenon choose between a tie.

Unvote; vote Guardian

To clarify for Tony since he can't be arsed to read back entries, my top scums are Skruffs and Tony with Vitr and Thok now fighting pretty hard for third place. I'm still suspicious of Elias, but he's so inactive that he's dropping off my stream of consciousness.

[Setael]

I had forgotten the Egypt thread was that long when I replaced in - still a far cry from 55 pages. At the time I joined it I was in very few games so I had more time to devote to reading it. Regardless, IH is right - you don't know my alignment in the Egypt game, or in any of my games so it's invalid to bring it up anyway. I think you just realize that the case on me is threadbare and you're trying to come up with some kind of semi-valid argument so that when I come up Town you won't look like you voted me for absolutely no reason.

[Setael]

i hated this game in so many ways, not the least of which was Tony, who planned to place the lynching vote a few days ago, not being able to do so since he was coin flipped off out of the game at like 8 in the morning :\.

Also, I have to say that besides Tony, I hated my scum partners with a passion.

I was so annoyed with Guardian and confused when we were near a Tony lynch and were set up to have it be a great bus that would not have implicated either of us. Tony seemed so sick of the game, it was the perfect move. And then Guardian moved off Tony onto me, forcing me to move my vote as well.

Still don't understand that move. It was all downhill for me from there, and I blame Guardian.