Mini 458 - Game over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

/confirm!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (7) = 7

[Mastermind of Sin]

I Almost Messed up my dice role and used random.org instead of the built in dice function.

vote: Carrotcake

Oops, <3 carrot cake, well the food at least, not necessarily the Player.

[Mastermind of Sin]

vote: Jay and Silent Bob

vote: Beavis and Butthead

vote: Wal-Mart

vote:carrotcake

cause I don't like carrot cake


(insert mandatory OMGUS vote here, with an explanation why my name sucks so much. MAKE ME LAUGH!)

you suck for not liking carrot cake.

[Mastermind of Sin]

mod, it'd be nice if you fixed the topic so it didn't look like we were still in confirmation stage.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The tags are like this:

[ dice ] 1d12 [ / dice ]

minus the spaces.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That was actually 11:46.

unvote, vote: J-man

[Mastermind of Sin]

There is only one right time zone

THE CENTRAL TIME ZONE

QFT

QFFT

[Mastermind of Sin]

The usual good reasons for no lynch don't apply right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Down with molestargazer!

unvote, vote: molestargazer

[Mastermind of Sin]

Heads up for everyone here, I know i've posted this in the Vacation thread already, but from June 20th-26th(ish) I will be on vacation.


95% I should have Internet access, just letting you know in case for some reason that doesn't happen =/

Don't need a replacement.

You'll be gone because you're coming to MoS-Faire?

[Mastermind of Sin]

The molestargazer wagon has a snack cart! and it's free!

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote, vote: J-man

Appealing to emotion, sucking up to people to get them to go his way, acting like BM, personal attacks without substance, etc.

Definite earmarks of scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would like J-Man to claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, by your logic, no one should ever claim. Do you really believe that it is helpful for the town to have no one ever claim?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It is helpful for someone to claim before they are lynched. At this point, I intend to lynch J-man, and his most recent posts have only convinced me further. Since he was only 2 votes away from lynch, I wanted him to claim. If he claim was believable, then we can leave him alive. It is better that we not lynch someone whose claim we believe is protown and make the scum have to kill them, rather than do the scum's work for them. I am not claiming that people should claim without pressure. That is not helpful. However, it is extremely unhelpful for the town for someone to refuse to claim when they are about to be lynched.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MOS, I apologize for this horrible play so far.

Asking for a claim at -2 is not a scumtell!

There is a good case to be made for it, I disagree with it, but there is nothing inherently scummy about thinking that way. Waiting until -1 for a claim could a)result in an unaware noobie dropping the hammer or b)scum dropping the hammer.

I was hoping that J-man would argue his way out of his wagon without resorting to a claim, for the reasons I stated above. He has failed so far. My read is inexperienced scum.

unvote vote: J-man

Note: J-Man is at -1 to lynch! No one vote for him without a dang good reason!

The pressure is on now. J-man: why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

This is why I <3 Adel. Pretty sure she is protown now. Will provide reasoning for this if scum want to try and argue with me over it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would like J-Man to claim.

This is really stupid, if he's a doc or cop, he might claim, if he's mafia, he'll still probably claim cop or doc, or claim vanilla, like he did. If he's a normal townie, he'll claim vanilla like he did.

So asking him to claim, we'll either get a doc, cop, or townie. But we'll actually never know, so what's the point?

Would you rather he be lynched without claiming? If claiming is really such a bad idea, why does it get done in every game on this site? Why has such a precedent been set if claiming is stupid?

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote

J-man is not scum. Do not lynch him.

vote: pickemgenius

I have a really bad gut feeling about him, especially after his last post. I just get the feeling that he's scum trying to push through the lynch on J-man, while telling him what a protown player should do, so as seeming to educate him for the good of the town. Also, I don't feel that J-man hasn't defended himself. He *did* post a defense, but it was a defense that struck me as the sort newbie town would make, being overwhelmed by the pressure he's under.

pickem's last sentence again sounds like a scum ploy, in that scum often tell the town to not be hasty, as a way of trying to seem protown. You rarely see protown players put that much emphasis in such a statement.

Die suck scum die?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

Nice try, scum. Die now, kthnx.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why? If you are doubtful, you should not be voting him when he is so closely to lynch. At the very least, unvote and FoS him, there is no protown reason to still be voting him if you are doubtful that he is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, you're asserting that nearly every game on this site lynches someone Day 1 without that person claiming? Or are you saying they always no lynch on the first day, so that no one has to claim? And if they no lynch, what makes Day 2 any different? You don't have any information from the lynch, and some people died.

Claiming has to be done to gain information on scummy players. If they are townie, they should claim townie, although there are other strategies that I won't go into at this time. If they are scum, they can fakeclaim whatever they like. We'll figure out soon enough if they're scum. If they're doc, they should probably claim something else. If they're cop, they might as well claim rather than be lynched, because the doc can protect them at night.

There is definitely a point in trying to get someone to claim on Day 1. If they are scummy and close to lynch, they should claim, so that we don't reach a lynch without hearing their claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, you're asserting that nearly every game on this site lynches someone Day 1 without that person claiming? Or are you saying they always no lynch on the first day, so that no one has to claim? And if they no lynch, what makes Day 2 any different? You don't have any information from the lynch, and some people died.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to want to get someone to claim, I'm not saying anything about a no-lynch, no lynches are stupid, my point is that if you tell someone to claim, you're not going to get any info, at least none you're sure of, you actually said it yourelf, what i've been saying:

Claiming has to be done to gain information on scummy players. If they are townie, they should claim townie, although there are other strategies that I won't go into at this time. If they are scum, they can fakeclaim whatever they like. We'll figure out soon enough if they're scum. If they're doc, they should probably claim something else. If they're cop, they might as well claim rather than be lynched, because the doc can protect them at night.

I've been saying about what they'll claim the whole time, when they do claim, we won't know what they are, normal townies will claim townie, mafia will most likely claim normal townie, cop will claim cop, and doc will claim townie, so we know J-man, for instance, is either scum, a doc, or a regular townie. Tell me how this helped us.

First off, cop/doc/scum/townie are not necessarily the only roles I have. I just used them as examples because you did. Secondly, we gain information. We can see if his actions fit with the role he's had, we can decide if we think the possibility of his role being useful outweighs leaving him alive if he is scum. We gain a lot of things from a claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

I just really didn't feel there was any case against J-man that warrented a lynch

I said that the case didn't exist? I'm pretty sure this is what you are talking about, and if we're reading the same thing, NOWHERE does it say that a case didn't exist, just no case that warrented a lynch.

There still is a case against him though, so he still needs to defend himself. Just because in my opinion it doesn't warrent a lynch, doesn't mean that he doesn't need to defend himself.

Like I said earlier, he's already defended himself against what case there was. Therefore, if you say he hasn't defended himself, you must be referring to another case that none of us know about, which would've been enough to lynch him, combined with other actions. But you said there wasn't enough of a case to lynch him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Like I said earlier, he's already defended himself against what case there was. Therefore, if you say he hasn't defended himself, you must be referring to another case that none of us know about, which would've been enough to lynch him, combined with other actions. But you said there wasn't enough of a case to lynch him.

I still am not quite sure

well i can see that you guys are quite intent on killing me and ive spent a hour and a bit reading the posts over and trying to figure out a airtight argument that i could use in my defence, mabye its because of inexpierence that i cant find one but in any case im pretty sure that my defence is already stated

and if there is another out there that thinks i am mafia... well then i cant do a whole lot to stop you.

the defence behind the hinting about a power role is this, i was hoping that you guys would move on with out moving to the point that if i was i would have to claim.

qualifies much for a defense. Still.

The afformentioned scummy vibes i've recently got is that in my first game ever (Newbie 334) one of the scum didn't post a defense for himself, and only listed a suspicion list. So it's

almost

like deja-vu, with a different person.

That's my basic case against him. It for sure isn't hidden.

If THAT is the only thing he needed to defend against, then he had nothing to defend against. Your "case" is complete bullshit. That like saying "Yosarian2 was aggressive as scum in another game, so since Pooky is aggressive in this game, he must be scum!" or "BM plays really scummy as town, so since MrBuddyLee is being scummy right now, he must be town as well!" That is complete and utter nonsense. You cannot base your scumtells off a single example of another players playstyle as scum. What about the other scum in that game? Did they post a defense for themself? What about the people who refuse to defend themselves on principle? Are they all scum? You case is horrible, and it smells like a scum concoction to boot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, him not voting merely makes it look like he was trying to pile suspicion on J-man, who had a bandwagon going. That's a classic scum strategy, pushing the bandwagon without being on it. Then, he can go back later and say "hey, I wasn't on the bandwagon, don't blame me!" This makes me more sure that J-man is town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, you do realize that making that post has completely made it pointless for me not to answer if I did have a reason not to?

And yes, I would like pickem to hang.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, him not voting merely makes it look like he was trying to pile suspicion on J-man, who had a bandwagon going. That's a classic scum strategy, pushing the bandwagon without being on it. Then, he can go back later and say "hey, I wasn't on the bandwagon, don't blame me!" This makes me more sure that J-man is town.

Me not hammering makes me scum?

What if I would have hammered, and what if he did come up town?

Had you hammered him, you probably would've been vigged or lynched the next day. Knowing this, you couldn't justify a hammer vote. However, you post a weak case that says to newbie town "I didn't think J-man was worth lynching based on what he did before, but now I think he is." this essentially tells a newbie that you support a bandwagon on J-man, so they might throw down the hammer, seeing such overwhelming support from the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now you're playing semantics, pickem. It's not what you actually say, it's what you imply by your actions. You did not

say

that you wanted J-man lynched, but your actions implied that you supported such an action.

[Mastermind of Sin]

i REALLY REALLY want to vote pickem but instead i will

FO

Major

S:pickem

you can't just jump on a forming bandwagon (clearly jumping on as it forms since you posted twice after Dylan but before your vote) and it clear that you had read up to that point atleast because you responded to MoS... your definatly pouring out scummy vibes over here.

and not to ignore the dylan fiasco :S wth are you on... your not this inactive in other games... so why this one he definatly lurking why? idk im pretty sure ive got my scum pinned down but this is making me rethink everything. so yea Dylan

IGMEOY

So...wait. You think I'm scum, but I haven't slipped up yet? And you really want to vote the guy that

I

am leading the charge against? Please explain your thought process regarding this. If I haven't slipped up yet, why do you think I'm scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Please again tell me where I imply I want J-man to be lynched.

FoS:pickemgenius

for not seeing that it is clearly there.

\

Now you see why I think he's scum? He was caught in a serious slipup, and he's doing everything he can to feign ignorance of what he's done, instead of trying to actually explain his actions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now you see why I think he's scum? He was caught in a serious slipup, and he's doing everything he can to feign ignorance of what he's done, instead of trying to actually explain his actions.

I got a few questions still.

1. what serious slip up?

unvote

J-man is not scum. Do not lynch him.

vote: pickemgenius

I have a really bad gut feeling about him, especially after his last post. I just get the feeling that he's scum trying to push through the lynch on J-man, while telling him what a protown player should do, so as seeming to educate him for the good of the town. Also, I don't feel that J-man hasn't defended himself. He *did* post a defense, but it was a defense that struck me as the sort newbie town would make, being overwhelmed by the pressure he's under.

pickem's last sentence again sounds like a scum ploy, in that scum often tell the town to not be hasty, as a way of trying to seem protown. You rarely see protown players put that much emphasis in such a statement.

Die suck scum die?

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

Nice try, scum. Die now, kthnx.

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

I just really didn't feel there was any case against J-man that warrented a lynch

I said that the case didn't exist? I'm pretty sure this is what you are talking about, and if we're reading the same thing, NOWHERE does it say that a case didn't exist, just no case that warrented a lynch.

There still is a case against him though, so he still needs to defend himself. Just because in my opinion it doesn't warrent a lynch, doesn't mean that he doesn't need to defend himself.

Like I said earlier, he's already defended himself against what case there was. Therefore, if you say he hasn't defended himself, you must be referring to another case that none of us know about, which would've been enough to lynch him, combined with other actions. But you said there wasn't enough of a case to lynch him.

2. how am I trying to feign ignorance from what i've done?

You've been avoiding addressing what you did directly by claiming to not know what you've done.

3. Please again tell me where I imply/say I want J-man to be lynched.

There: (as if it wasn't fucking obvious, were you not feigning complete ignorance, since this is the post that caused me to vote you in the first place)

My vibe-o-meter™ just went from wishy washy to more likely scum. I'm not really happy with his last few posts.

why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

I felt that you only answered latter two.
Town members

NEED

to defend themselves

always.

The afformentioned scummy vibes i've recently got is that in my first game ever (Newbie 334) one of the scum didn't post a defense for himself, and only listed a suspicion list. So it's

almost

like deja-vu, with a different person.


I do agree that we need

everyone

to comment on J-man, so that we don't come to a hasty conclusion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

1/2vote: pickemgenius, 1/2vote: dylan41985

err, what?

>_>

[Mastermind of Sin]

gogo trendsetter!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let me understand something.

you found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

just really didn't feel there was any case against J-man that warrented a lynch

I said that the case didn't exist? I'm pretty sure this is what you are talking about, and if we're reading the same thing, NOWHERE does it say that

a

case didn't exist,

just no case that warrented a lynch.

There still is

a

case against him though, so he still needs to defend himself. Just because

in my opinion it doesn't warrent a lynch

, doesn't mean that he doesn't need to defend himself.

umm.
If he has 6 votes, there is obviously some case out there which 6 people felt he should be lynched.
I just wasn't buying it.

There wasn't, really. And what little case there was, he had defended himself against by the time you made your post encouraging more suspicion of him.

3. Please again tell me where I imply/say I want J-man to be lynched.

There: (as if it wasn't fucking obvious, were you not feigning complete ignorance, since this is the post that caused me to vote you in the first place)

My vibe-o-meter™ just went from wishy washy to more likely scum. I'm not really happy with his last few posts.

why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

I felt that you only answered latter two.
Town members NEED to defend themselves always.

The afformentioned scummy vibes i've recently got is that in my first game ever (Newbie 334) one of the scum didn't post a defense for himself, and only listed a suspicion list. So it's almost like deja-vu, with a different person.


I do agree that we need everyone to comment on J-man, so that we don't come to a hasty conclusion.

I don't mention lynching J-man once in that, the word lynch isn't in it.
Telling him what he should do if he is protown is implying I want him to be lynched?
Saying that I found it weird that he really didn't defend/said he would hammer himself implies I want him to be lynched?
Me not FOS'ing, IGMEOY, or voting him, for a shit example I gave (and I knew it was shit, that why I didn't vote him) implies I want him to be lynched?

I'm going to use some very overemphasized examples here just to get the point across to you and HungryJoe, because you just aren't getting it.

Please note that any votes made in quotes are not actual votes.

Hey guys, guess what. I am 100% sure that Adel is scum. I investigated her last night, and my sanity is confirmed, so everyone please vote her and kill the scumz.

Vote: Adel

After making this post, can I really say that I clearly did NOT claim cop, just because I didn't say the fucking word? No, I can't, because everything I DID say strongly implied that I was a cop.

Wow, NabNab just made the scummiest post in the history of mafiascum. I can't believe he's getting away with this bullshit.

After making this post, can I come back and say that I was clearly NOT pushing for his lynch, because I didn't say I wanted him lynched, and the word "lynch" never appeared in my post? No, I can't, because the statements I made implied that I wanted him to be lynched, with or without my involvement.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You guys are freaking out on pickem for what seems to be absolutely nothing.

I sure MoS will make a more spirited defense, but it did seem a little like pickemgenuis in the post in question was either
a)giving subtle encouragement for someone else to drop the hammer,
b) fishing for an excuse to drop the hammer, or
c)making a strong pro-town statement in slight defense of a townie he knew was about to be mis-lynched.
I think a) is the most likely, and c) is the least, but all of them are possible outcomes that would benefit pickemgenuis is he were scum and J-man is town. I didn't take that post to be too scummy. pickemgenius's later defense of that post seemed a little scummy though, and MoS seems really convinced.

The primary scumtell I'm holding against pickemgenuis is a low content:postiness ratio. Which is exactly what you accused me of. Ironic.

I <3 being called odd. Thanks.

J-man, pickemgenuis, and dylan are my scummiest, which isn't saying much since MoS and the Admiral are the only ones I've kinda cleard in my head. Kate I don't know about, and the others haven't posted enough, yet.

I'm inclined to believe that he was doing both a) and c).

[Mastermind of Sin]

The problem is, if you are inferring that someone should hammer, why not do it yourself? That's the sort of thing that only benefits scum. If a protown player wants someone else to do something, it better be something they're willing to do themselves. Only scum try to coerce people into doing their job for them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*ring* Hello, is Vito Corleone there? I know we've never talked, and you probably don't know who I am, but I know someone who needs your help...

Seriously, I put pressure on J-man to see how he would react. He reacted in such a way that I felt quite sure he was protown, and I acted as such.

Also, wtf? Why is it that you pressure the bandwagon leader when the townie does something stupid such as lynch themself, but not when someone else hammers? There is nothing inherently scummy about hammering a protown person. In either instance, the person supporting the bandwagon the most is probably the best place to start looking for scum. However, I was not looking for a lynch on J-man. I was looking to pressure him and see how he reacted, including his claim. The only way to get a genuine reaction is to act as IF I'm willing to lynch him. If he knows he's safe, he won't give a good reaction to read his alignment from.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not really sure that ThAdmiral has earned the "right" to tell people off about calling others sucky, either. Regardless, J-man did have a point, even though he referenced an ongoing game (don't do that).

[Mastermind of Sin]

it is kind of suspicious that Mastermind of Sin confidently states that "J-man is not scum." Are they working together?

Mastermind - can you explain why he isn't scum?

I have already explained this. Please do some reading instead of just accusing people of things.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: In fact, I have explained this multiple times, having reexplained it recently.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, please revert to your original configuration, where they are in a circle, that is much easier to understand and keep track of. For one, all the lines are straight, and your eyes aren't dodging around trying to find people. It's easy to trace everything and make sense of it. Your other graphics just make my eyes glaze over. Otherwise, I feel that can be very helpful.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok MoS, so your defense is essentially that you were just doing a very good job of putting pressure on J-Man so you could get and be convinced by a role claim, and it worked. In case anybody doesn't remember, here's his claim:

now i was really tempted to claim cop/doc just to make you guys squirm because i know that since i am a vannilla townie i really dont have a whole lot of use to you guys, i mean kill me if you will althought esspeccially this early in day 1 its not a good idea (and yes nomatter how many pages we have turned there really isnt any info that has been gleaned)

my eyes are on dylan pickem, and the admiral and i think i shall FOS:MoS
from left to right is where my suspisions lie, i shall clarify and defend myself at a later date bit of a time crunch for now

No. It was not his roleclaim that convinced me. It was his actions. The post right before I declared him protown is the one that convinced me he was protown, not his claim.

Two things:
1) There seems to be a general consensus (which I agree with) that J-Man's claim is less than credible.
2) Two posts later, you still seem less than convinced:

It is helpful for someone to claim before they are lynched. At this point, I intend to lynch J-man, and his most recent posts have only convinced me further. Since he was only 2 votes away from lynch, I wanted him to claim. If he claim was believable, then we can leave him alive. It is better that we not lynch someone whose claim we believe is protown and make the scum have to kill them, rather than do the scum's work for them. I am not claiming that people should claim without pressure. That is not helpful. However, it is extremely unhelpful for the town for someone to refuse to claim when they are about to be lynched.

After his initial claim, J-Man continued to post jumbled messes (no offense meant) in his defense, certainly not anything that could conclusively clear him. The action that eventually sparked your proclamation and unvote was his threat to vote for himself. (Not a scum-tell or a town-tell, but just a tell for apathy and frustration in general)

He threatened to vote himself? I didn't even see that...at least I don't remember seeing it. It didn't influence my actions in any way. In addition, if I was scum, why would I not just sit on his wagon and be quiet like everyone else and let him hammer himself? No one was going to come after me for letting him kill himself, since they were all on the wagon as well...if you want to find scum on the J-man wagon, look to the people that hopped on without much contribution, and who haven't been making many statements about alignments. Scum are generally not willing to commit to declaring a person definitely scum or town, because that puts them in a position they can't back out of.

It may seem odd that I'm basically accusing J-Man of being scummy, but saying MoS is scummy for driving his wagon. At the time of MoS's proclamation, J-Man appeared very scummy, so it makes even less sense that MoS would clear him so quickly. It's unlikely that he came to the conclusion that J-Man was town through his posting, and the only other explanation is that MoS is part of the informed minority a.k.a. scum. When MoS revealed to us information that he had no right to have, he proved himself to be scum.

And MoS, if you

can

explain definitely why J-Man is town from his posts, I would be happy to pay attention. As a relative newbie, there may be some essential element I'm completely missing here. In that case, I'm sorry.

Are you a lawyer, NabNab? If I didn't know better, I would've almost voted myself after such an excellent display of reasoning. Unfortunately, before you try to present a case to the jury to convince them that a person's actions were done maliciously, it is imperative to acquaint yourself with the accused first, finding out their mannerisms and quirks.

Anyways, I have to admit you do have a valid theory. The only thing I have to point out, WIFOM as it is, is that a person such as myself would know that claiming someone is innocent without any sort of indication that they are is a scumtell, so I wouldn't do it as scum. Now, this doesn't prove me innocent, but it DOES mean that you can't use that argument AGAINST me, because what I said could very well be true, even if it is WIFOM.

[Mastermind of Sin]

well i can see that you guys are quite intent on killing me and ive spent a hour and a bit reading the posts over and trying to figure out a airtight argument that i could use in my defence, mabye its because of inexpierence that i cant find one but in any case im pretty sure that my defence is already stated and if there is another out there that thinks i am mafia... well then i cant do a whole lot to stop you. the defence behind the hinting about a power role is this, i was hoping that you guys would move on with out moving to the point that if i was i would have to claim.

This statement is RARE to see coming from scum. It would take a very sly scum to admit that there is nothing they can defend themselves with. Most scum in his position would bluster and attack others, trying to get attention off themselves.

on a different note this game is being run quite effeciently by 2 people adel and MoS imo they can effectively control and direct the discussion which if either of then are mafia (speccially adel) then town has already lost pressure needs to be applied to them but i can/t see that happening as they are both coming to the conclusion that each other are townie

He makes a very astute observation, having the guts to put some pressure on the two most prominent players in the game, who no one has tried to stand up to so far. Were he scum, I think he would attack some easier positions, going after other people on his wagon, perhaps.

finnaly i have this to say as my last line of defence i am Vanilla, not mafia; killing me on day 1 with this amount of info that you have is a bad idea you will go into day2 with very much the same amount of info and adel and MoS pushing for the first townie that makes an error in common speech, if it means anything in quite convinced that there are no power roles.

Saying he is vanilla can be argued either way, but my gut feeling in this case is that it's a sign of his protownness. Another accurate observation, that killing him then would bring us into the next day without much info. Also, while I think he's wrong, I don't think that scum would make such an out-of-left-field guess as to the setup. He could've been attacked even more for making such a suggestion, so there was no advantage to be gained from making such a statement as scum.

That post alone contained some good contributions to the game, you just need to break down his posts and look at it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, note that J-man is not the only person I have confidently stated is protown so far this game, either. I believe Adel to be town, and I am very confident that pickem is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

J-man, why are you voting me? I'm the only one who really thinks you're protown. This doesn't make me protown, but I would like to hear why you are still voting me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait...did ckd

actually

say that replacements are less likely to be mafia? Umm, that is so wrong on so many levels, and it stinks of scum just trying to clear themselves by saying all the other replacements are less likely to be scum.

FoS: CKD

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, you know it's bad logic, but you'll stick with it? That makes no sense whatsoever. All it takes is a quick look through past games to realize that you are wrong. I can't count the number of times I have replaced into a game as scum. Off the top of my head, there was Dichotomafia and one of the DP games (11, I think). I haven't done any replacing in over a year, for the most part, so it's hard to recall the various games.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...dylan, at least try to explain the inconsistencies they pointed out. They are glaringly obvious.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, you know it's bad logic, but you'll stick with it? That makes no sense whatsoever. All it takes is a quick look through past games to realize that you are wrong. I can't count the number of times I have replaced into a game as scum. Off the top of my head, there was Dichotomafia and one of the DP games (11, I think). I haven't done any replacing in over a year, for the most part, so it's hard to recall the various games.

well you have that experience to go on. I am a betting man, and have noted how many people bow out of games (that I have then replaced) and were town, yet they are strong posters on other threads….that I am sure they found more interesting because they probably had power in other games. So far in my career with this game (this site and others), every time I have been a replacement, I have been a townie.

...at any rate, it was just a theory...I have not read too many threads that I am not in...can you direct me to one that had such a scenario?

At this point in the game, replacements are not on my radar. This game is up to 3 now right? I think there are far more scummier people in this thread.

I can think of one game offhand that I am not in right now where I know of multiple replacements who are scum, but I can't say anything, because the game is still ongoing. Needless to say, though, it exists.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What information do we gain from lynching dylan today? We have nothing to go on from his lynch, so we just revert to everyone else we were attacking today. He is most likely not scum, and his lynch will not accomplish anything. I'd rather just request that he be replaced, because he obviously is not playing the game, nor does he have any wish to play. Even if we can't replace him, though, we can just ignore him for now, and he'll be lynched/vigged/nightkilled eventually.

[Mastermind of Sin]

J-man, you do realize that you have barely been more helpful than Dylan this game, right? Also, I maintain that pickem is scum. J-man and Dylan are not likely to be scum, and lynching them won't help us that much. We'd get some information from the J-man lynch, but at the cost of an obvious protown. It is quite clear that his "scumtells" come from his inexperience, not a malicious, clever plan to kill the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ckd, please show me a post where Dylan has been protown and I will show you a post where J-man has been protown. Please don't be a hypocrit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe that given the two to choose from, dylan is the scummier, because I actually CAN show you where J-man has been protown, and I have already done so in this game.

well i can see that you guys are quite intent on killing me and ive spent a hour and a bit reading the posts over and trying to figure out a airtight argument that i could use in my defence, mabye its because of inexpierence that i cant find one but in any case im pretty sure that my defence is already stated and if there is another out there that thinks i am mafia... well then i cant do a whole lot to stop you. the defence behind the hinting about a power role is this, i was hoping that you guys would move on with out moving to the point that if i was i would have to claim.

on a different note this game is being run quite effeciently by 2 people adel and MoS imo they can effectively control and direct the discussion which if either of then are mafia (speccially adel) then town has already lost pressure needs to be applied to them but i can/t see that happening as they are both coming to the conclusion that each other are townie

finnaly i have this to say as my last line of defence i am Vanilla, not mafia; killing me on day 1 with this amount of info that you have is a bad idea you will go into day2 with very much the same amount of info and adel and MoS pushing for the first townie that makes an error in common speech, if it means anything in quite convinced that there are no power roles.

That being said, I do not want either J-man or Dylan to be lynched. They are protown, and I'm highly amused that both of them have attacked me repeatedly this game, but that just contributes to my feeling that they are protown at this point. I'm sticking with my pickem vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

well, I am sure we can go round and round about who we think is scummer. I admit I can not find much that proves that Dylan is pro-town, but I think he is just inexperienced, as indirectly and unintentionally proven by J-man (describing Dyaln's other games). At least we both agree that a Dylan lynching proves little. I do some what agree with J-man however...if Dylan does not post more soon, he should be prodded then replaced. Replaced or Lynched seems pretty apathetic to me, J-man. Since you are referencing other games, these games that you have always resulted in a lynch, was Dylan mafia or town? If we play smart, and not lynch the VI, we wont get into a lylo situation.

If he is to be replaced, I would like to see how the replacement acted, before we lynch him.

You *don't* think J-man is inexperienced as well? Most of the arguments you are applying to say that Dylan is protown apply to J-man as well, which is why I do not support lynching either of them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Perhaps ignore was not the right word. "Decide not to lynch" would be better, I guess.

I don't think scum would bite the hand that feeds them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I wouldn't have a problem lynching Kate (as in, I don't consider her in the same category as J-man and Dylan), but I still believe pickem is the play today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, I believe that ckd could very well be scum. The only people I would not be willing to lynch right now are myself, Adel, Dylen, and Crub (aka J-man)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, I believe that ckd could very well be scum. The only people I would not be willing to lynch right now are myself, Adel, Dylen, and Crub (aka J-man)

I can understand how you don't see Dylan's and J-man's behavior as scummy, just newbie. But I don't see why you are so sure they're pro-town: can't newbies be scum, too?

Welcome to the game, Crub. Good beginning. I completely understand about the huge thread to catch up on: you have my sympathy. 8)

I believe newbie scum would act differently.

unvote, vote: CKD

He's just digging himself a deeper hole.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Way to selectively quote the posts that don't have my reasoning and ignore the ones that do. Try again, mole.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I consider their playstyles solid evidence that they are protown. You don't have to believe me, that's your prerogative. Either way, I will consider anyone who pushes a lynch on one of the two of them to be likely scum going for the easy kill.

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote

Vote: pickem

*shrug* ckd made a pretty good defense, imo, but I will still

FoS: ckd

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug* ckd made a pretty good defense, imo, but I will still FoS: ckd

ckd made a defense? He hasn't yet, his last post even said, "THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE. "
And why do you think pickem is scum?

Kate, I have a few questions for you:

1) Do you always take people's posts are face value?
2) Do you always do what people tell you to do?
3) Have you read the thread?

Depending on your answers to my questions, your questions may become irrelevant, as you discover the answers to them yourself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*shrug* ckd made a pretty good defense, imo, but I will still FoS: ckd

ckd made a defense? He hasn't yet, his last post even said, "THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE. "
And why do you think pickem is scum?

Kate, I have a few questions for you:

1) Do you always take people's posts are face value?
2) Do you always do what people tell you to do?
3) Have you read the thread?

Depending on your answers to my questions, your questions may become irrelevant, as you discover the answers to them yourself.

I asked you reasonable questions, actually, they were also pointed out by Adel and pickem, so you don't even answer, and ask me these...
Okay, ummmm, if something gives me scummy vides, i think they might be lying, like ckd for example. If i think someone is pretty pro-town, like Adel, i'll pretty much believe them. 2nd, no. 3rd, hmmmm, i think so...

Well then. If you don't always take posts are face value, you would see CKD's post as a good defense, regardless of whether he himself thinks it was a defense. Instead, you followed CKD's bidding, supporting the assumption that his post was not a defense, without seeming to think about it.

If you had read the thread, you wounld know that I have already posted my case against pickem, multiple times iirc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

OMG. ckd, I <3 you...that post was awesome. Just the fact that you put so much thought and effort into coming up with a case that I would find very reasonable, if I didn't know my own role, has convinced me that you are definitely not the right vote today. I'll go respond to this right now, you don't know how happy you've made me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

At any rate, after MoS and Admiral unvote, Adel unvotes (post 179). And states that she thinks MoS and Admiral are town. Pro pressure on Pick, which is MoS’s baby.

Whoa…now this is interesting. What if MoS, Adel, and, J-man were scum together?
Look at the sequence of events.

Adel puts J-man at –1 at post 148
MoS says Adel is town (because of her vote on J-man) in post 161

MOS, I apologize for this horrible play so far.

Asking for a claim at -2 is not a scumtell!

There is a good case to be made for it, I disagree with it, but there is nothing inherently scummy about thinking that way. Waiting until -1 for a claim could a)result in an unaware noobie dropping the hammer or b)scum dropping the hammer.

I was hoping that J-man would argue his way out of his wagon without resorting to a claim, for the reasons I stated above. He has failed so far. My read is inexperienced scum.

unvote vote: J-man

Note: J-Man is at -1 to lynch! No one vote for him without a dang good reason!

The pressure is on now. J-man: why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

This is why I <3 Adel. Pretty sure she is protown now. Will provide reasoning for this if scum want to try and argue with me over it.

Actually, it wasn't strictly because of her vote that I called her protown. She made a very intelligent case against waiting for L-1 to claim, and she asked some good questions of J-man for him to answer. This wasn't the entire reason I made my post, but I've forgotten the rest this late in the day.

J-man’s “defense” post 164 (should be noted that in this post he fingers MoS and Adel)
MoS unvotes J-man “because he is not scum do not lynch him” post 170

Note that I have explained WHY I unvoted him in later posts.

MoS convinces Admiral to unvote J-man post 174.
Admiral does post 178
Adel unvotes post 179 and vouches for Admiral and MoS.

Then that’s when the Dylan bandwagon picks up…

God what a brilliant pairing? MoS and Adel banding together to distance themselves from J-man. J-man distances himself from MoS and Adel…at the same time no one is lynched…I think this was mainly missed because the VI decided to post.

Oh yes, what a brilliant pairing that would be. Now I really want to be scum with Adel in a game, because I can't remember the last time I've worked openly with my scumbuddy, blatantly connecting ourselves together. It's actually a pretty good idea. (Note: this is not sarcasm, so don't read it that way. I'm serious)

So the town on a whole goes after the VI and Adel and MoS focus on Pick (posts 204 –208) Adel does mentioned she is not on a Pick wagon yet.

Post 222, J-man adds to the Pick and Dylan bandwagons.

Adel FoS pick in 228.

Both Adel and MoS distance themselves from J-man without voting for him in post 239-240. Adel finally votes for Pick in 244.

Post 255, adel defends the MoS attack on Pick to Hungry Joe.

Finally NabNab calls Mos on his attack on Pick in post 264,

And in true VI fashion the VI says something late and irrelevant, which makes everyone forget NabNab’s post.

You forget the fact that

I

did not forget NabNab's post. I responded to his case and defended myself against it, and NabNab himself gave up the case and unvoted me.

Next part I edited out to save space, since it applies more to Adel than myself. I won't answer for her actions.

Post 357:

id like to respond to that and will in time but i had an accident at work and i hurt my eye, can't really do the reading neccisary to find the posts i need to amke a valid point i should be fine in a day or two but don't expect any big posts from me for the next couple days.

but as a basic answer to the question i will say this, you are on the top of my scummy list, that i have spoke about as of yet, i wouldn't say your the most scummiest in town but id like to keep the rest to myself until i can make a better case agianst them.

I think he is distancing himself from MoS, but at the same time, saying that there are scummier people here.

I sort of wondered where he was going with that myself...

Post 414

J-man, you do realize that you have barely been more helpful than Dylan this game, right? Also, I maintain that pickem is scum. J-man and Dylan are not likely to be scum, and lynching them won't help us that much. We'd get some information from the J-man lynch, but at the cost of an obvious protown. It is quite clear that his "scumtells" come from his inexperience, not a malicious, clever plan to kill the town.

Wow, now MoS says J-man is protown…Maybe J-man is part of YOUR clever plan? So again, MoS vouches for J-man.

What do you mean by "now" I say he's protown? I hadn't said he was scum since unvoting him the first time. I've been relatively consistent in my belief.

Post 438

Yes, I believe that ckd could very well be scum. The only people I would not be willing to lynch right now are myself, Adel, Dylen, and Crub (aka J-man)

Speaks for itself.

Indeed. I had reservations about posting that in the first place, because it could be looked at as very scummy. *shrug*

When CKD subs in he does a bit of suspicion hopping and then comes out with this beauty

Numenorean7, enjoyed reading your brief analysis (even though it does target me). I hope it is not some grand mafia trick to divert our eyes from you. But you are a replacement like me, so I doubt you are mafia.

I find that real subtle ... He then follows this up with a number of attack's on Kate which I think is a ploy for him to distance himself from her.

As for everyone else here is my gut feel :
NabakovNabakov : Pro-Town
Molestargazer : Undecided
Kate : Scum
Crub : Vanilla Townie (CKD I don't think that's the fish you were after)
HungryJoe : Undecided
dylan41985 : Seriously wtf? Have you given up? Probably pro town but could be anything
Adel : Pro-Town
Numenorean7 : Pro-Town
curiouskarmadog : Scum
Mastermind of Sin : Pro-Town
pickemgenius : Undecided
ThAdmiral : Undecided

vote:curiouskarmadog

Of course, MoS and Adel Pro-town.

Post 454: MoS now jumps on with his buddies.

Post 466: MoS unvotes me, tries for pickem again, I do not think he wants to be attached to the bandwagon that is me.

….MoS is probably the smartest of the 3 and is the most experienced. He realizes in the reread there are many connections and similarities between he, Adel, and Crub. He does not want to be any part of the bandwagon that lynched me. Thus why I started posting the votes. I do not think he likes seeing Adel’s vote, followed by Crub’s, followed by his own. Not to mention, how will he target those who lynched an innocent person, if his vote helped lynch the townie?? I think MoS would love it if Pick voted for me right now…that would fit is plan perfectly. Thus the vote for Pick, to put pressure on Pick to so that Pick, will try to get the pressure off of Pick..i.e. Pick placing a vote on me. However, Pick only FoSed me…your plan did not work did it?

MoS..I DARE YOU, vote for me again…[/quote]

This is a VERY good theory. Despite it being wrong, the obvious thought behind it convinces me you are probably protown, and at the very least, not the play for today and the next few days. I'm not sure how I would react to Pick voting you. I never really considered it. I didn't think scum would so blatantly drop the hammer on you. I got off your wagon because I felt that your "NOT A DEFENSE" post was very genuine, and it seemed to come from a protown perspective.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oops, messed up the last quote... bah.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS:
IIRC, your vote on pickem was based mainly on his suggestion that someone else vote for J-man, and his iffy defense/denial thereafter. This seems slim evidence for the kind of confidence you've been displaying.

I will find time for a re-read tonight and tomorrow. If I notice anything new, I'll be sure to mention it.

Did you notice that he did much the same thing with BOTH Dylan and CKD? With CKD's wagon quickly growing, he merely placed an FoS, adding to the suspicion, encouraging others that this was a generally accepted wagon without participating himself. If anything, I'm more confident in my vote now than before.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Huh? Who's drawing connections of all 3 scum? How do you know we have a scumgroup of three? I'm not seeing how your argument works, because you seem to be referencing something I have no knowledge of, NabNab.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd be interested to hear why HungryJoe is so high up on your protown list. If anything, I have him on my "more likely to be scum" list.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Adel turns up scum, something went very wrong here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

CKD, do you have anything to say about my defense?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm feeling a little stuck. Now I don't think curious is scummy enough to lynch, nor pickem, nor dylan, nor crub. The odds are decent that we have scum in that group, but that doesn't mean that there has to be. On the other hand, wagons on players outside that group are increasingly likely to force a powerrole to claim, and that is bad. Additionally I don't know who I'd like to examine next. Num7 or NabNab or molestargazer.

If there was a player who had been on all four wagons, I would vote for her. The problem is, I am the only person who has been on all four wagons.

ThAdmiral: You are still convinced about dylan, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

MosS: You are still convinced about pickem, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

I already made my case. If you cba to read the thread, that's your problem. I'm not going to waste space copying something that's already been said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

He didn't outright state that other people should hammer. That would've been stupid. He gave an impression of supporting suspicion on J-man, which in turn would convince people that it was ok to go ahead and vote him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@NabNab's argument: Oh Yeah, I remember this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is it that I now think at least one of ThAdmiral/Numenorean is scum? Their little bandwagon doesn't sit well with me (besides the fact that I believe him innocent). What they're doing is pretty much what I'd do as scum. From time to time, I've taken a similar stance on BM, and I've usually been scum or not paying attention very well. Just my thoughts...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ah, screw it. Let's see where this goes.

unvote, vote: Numenorean

[Mastermind of Sin]

hehe, I was waiting for someone else well versed in the ways of discrete math to show up...I knew I'd like you

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ah, screw it. Let's see where this goes.

unvote, vote: Numenorean

Mastermind seems to be really careless about who he throws his vote to

Are you even paying attention? How is it "careless"? Please do not bandy words that you cannot explain.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not to mention the fact that it's incredibly scummy to say that the Dylan lynch would help us in any way.

FoS: Kate

[Mastermind of Sin]

Pickem, that analysis has made me feel so much better about you, because it reflects a lot of what I was thinking (except that I would've put J-man with dylan, and Crub with Adel and NabNab, making their combination still in the town category). Adel made a good point about differentiating between Num and ThAdmiral, but I have a curious hunch. Vote stays.

@Pickem, CKD, NabNab, and Crub:

What do you think about an Adel/Numenorean scumgroup? It's too hard to speculate on a 3-way connection on D1, but do you feel that the two of them could be scum together?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Perhaps, but like I said, it's much harder to find a 3-person group D1 than to find 2 of the 3.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not to mention the fact that it's incredibly scummy to say that the Dylan lynch would help us in any way.

FoS: Kate

I said the dylan lynch would help us? I think I said it would help just as much as any other lynch, but haven't other people mentioned that too?

And? I'm currently voting one of the two others that strongly advocated this approach, so it's not like I'm singling you out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This post seems a little on the harsh side - filthy liar or just an innocent mistake that isn't really doing much harm anyway?

Notice, Dylan said band

b

agon, and NabNab poked fun at his mistake. It was meant as a joke. See 605.

Nice to have you back!

Why is it that I now think at least one of ThAdmiral/Numenorean is scum?

What do you think about an Adel/Numenorean scumgroup?

Why am I in both your recent suggested scumpairs? You voted me because I voted Dylan: what differentiates me from the others who are on the wagon?

Actually, I have only suggested one scumpair. I said that I thought

one of you and ThAdmiral

was scum. I later decided that I felt you were more likely scum, due to the fact that this sort of behavior is normal for ThAdmiral, and because I suddenly saw a connection between you and Adel that I missed before.

Neither do I understand your sudden suspicions of Adel: wasn't (s)he on your short list of people whose lynch you wouldn't support (439)? What has made you change your mind?

I haven't been entirely honest in my thoughts about Adel, because I wanted to see her actions more thoroughly. The connection I saw between her and you is what made me "change" my mind.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS: Please elaborate. I'm just not seeing it so you'll have to help me out. Why all the hating on Num recently?

See above post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I haven't been entirely honest in my thoughts about Adel, because I wanted to see her actions more thoroughly. The connection I saw between her and you is what made me "change" my mind.

whoa what? ugh, this bothers me on so many levels....just dont have time right now to comment...

I'll wait, although it's entirely possible that you misread what I meant. I'll attempt to clarify, in case this is true. My early comments that I felt Adel was protown were genuine, but as the game went on I harbored slight suspicions against her that I did not mention.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Absurdest prediction: This day will not end until every player has been at lynch -2.

@Num7: female

@MoS: I thought your sudden 180 on pickem was pretty odd. What is your case against Num7? The connection you see between us is that I followed his lead in voting for ckd, right?

@TheAdmiral: it is really hard to keep my vote on someone who is so agreeable!

No.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MOS- An Adel/Num combo, also how do you you know there are three scum [/irony]

Looking back to see if it's possible.

After looking at both of their posts individually to see possible interactions between them, I would find it not likely that they are both scum, or atleast there are no solid connections I could find.

*If* I had to say out of the two who is *more likely* scum, I would say Num.


@Wag list suspicions, in which I will break down the posts listed and explain from my point of view what I saw in them.

This is why I believe they are scum. A smart scum does not want to connect themselves to each other, and they avoid it very carefully.

[Mastermind of Sin]

They have no interacted

at all

. More to come.

[Mastermind of Sin]

no, no, you are just the draft animal. Yep, we're in a wagon being pulled by a mole. Exciting stuff.

A general question for the rest of you: where do you stand on the "lynch the lurkers" tactic? I think that on Day 1 the player with the least posted activity (content consisting of insightful posts, original opinions, FoSs and votes,

not

word count) should always have a wagon until a very convincing case can be built for one player.

In general, I think it is better to wait until

two

convincing cases can be built. The debate between the proponents of each case could be very illuminating.

It is all about generating enough information to make an informed decision.

Anyway, I'll suggest unorthodox tactics throughout the game. Some people think Mafia is a game about social conformity. "The nail that sticks up get hammered down." I'm an iconoclast and I just do not operate that way. So, fair warning.

Could go either way, but sets herself up for acting strange and getting away with it.

When are the GCSEs over?

Why wouldn't it be a good idea then for scum to lurk if they are given a pass for day one, and on day 2 they weren't on the bandwagon of a mis-lynch?

Yes I am new here, but the current meta seems slightly broken in favor of Mafia to me. All they have to do is post enough to not get replaced, and let the active townies pressure each other enough to out the power roles. Then, if an outed power role is not killed night 1, and was on the wagon for a mislynch, accusations of "fake claim" tend to stick, resulting in a mislynch day 2. That leaves town in day 3 nearly in a lynch or loose position depending on the number of scum (usually 3 or 4, right?).

Advantage: scum.

Please tell me that I am wrong, or how to stop this from happening.

Sets up the game for focus to be shifted to lurkers and away from herself.

While I don't like the posts by J-man so far, I'm going to wait for a little more evidence to base an opinion on.

Voting for lurkers is often a mafia strategy, as they know that they only have to post enough to not be classified lurkers.
It also means that the person killed doesn't provide the town with much information, as he probably didn't get on enough to accuse people etc.

So what is your prescribed course of action? Target those who chase lurkers? Ignore lurkers as if they aren't in the game?

In my opinion our initial objective should be to pressure all players into posting enough content that a reasonable case can be made against a couple players, and a reasonable case can be made for clearing the rest. So long as there is a player out there that I don't have enough information on to found an opinion upon, I'll refuse to extend that player the benefit of the doubt.

ThAdmiral: could you clarify your post, or do you stand by your words as they currently exist?

This post sounds very much like something she later accused me of trying to do: wagon every player in the game until we get information out of them...

I do not want J-man to claim. If he is just a townie no one will believe him, is he is a power role then the scum benefit, and if he is scum he will claim a power role and get a pass for the rest of the day and probably beyond. I don't see any of those outcomes really benefiting the town.

His scumtells to date aren't that significant to me, later they may be, but not yet. I have no problem with the votes that are on him, but it is

way

too early to lynch

anyone

. What is our deadline? Right, we do not have one.

On the other hand, with my 2.5 games of experience, I may be missing something.

Why would it be

good

for J-man to claim? There very well may be a reason I am not familiar with.

J-man, I would like to see you defend yourself point by point.

Claims inexperience, even though she has shown herself to be quite capable of good logic and posting.

MOS, I apologize for this horrible play so far.

Asking for a claim at -2 is not a scumtell!

There is a good case to be made for it, I disagree with it, but there is nothing inherently scummy about thinking that way. Waiting until -1 for a claim could a)result in an unaware noobie dropping the hammer or b)scum dropping the hammer.

I was hoping that J-man would argue his way out of his wagon without resorting to a claim, for the reasons I stated above. He has failed so far. My read is inexperienced scum.

unvote vote: J-man

Note: J-Man is at -1 to lynch! No one vote for him without a dang good reason!

The pressure is on now. J-man: why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

Here is where she begins following me around. I would like Adel to explain why J-man's actions were inexperienced

scum

, not

town

...

I'm taking a step back. My read on J-Man is still that he is unexperienced scum in a panic, if he bluffed twice, I don't know what would stop him from bluffing a third time since it seems to be his play style.

However,

TheAdmiral and MoS both seem pretty above board. At least one of them isn't scum- the odds of both of them being scum with J-man,

and

being on his bandwagon are awfully slim.

Points at us both as possible scum, while giving her an out to say she feels one of us is protown later

unvote:J-man

Placing pressure on pickemgenuis may be a good idea. He was active, and had several chances to join the bandwagon. If he is scum and J-man is town, then what would keep pickemgenius from joining the bandwagon, not as the hammer but before that? Scum-buddies already on the wagon. Alternatively, his actions make sense if both J-man and pickemgenuis are scum together. Good play would be preventing the lynch without associating too closely with his buddy, while still being in a position to be the hammer if the lynch appears inevitable.

Here, Adel again follows my logic, agreeing with my suspicions of pickem. However, she does not actually put pressure on him, even after saying that it may be a good idea to do so.

I'll take a step back at this point. I am not confident of my ability to choose the correct course from here. Pressuring some lurkers into posting may be a good idea at some point in the future. Several players are at only 4 or 5 posts, and a couple of them were on the J-man wagon.

Claims inexperience, even though her actions so far have shown her to be quite capable of presenting good logic. Steps back to let someone else take the lead, now that she's given up on the J-man wagon (again following me).

vote:dylan41985

I don't like the avatar, and I don't like the lurking.

This was only two posts later. No mention of putting pressure on pickem, and she votes dylan for lurking, even though plenty of people are also guilty, including num7's predecessor.

Repeated for emphasis:
In my opinion our initial objective should be to pressure all players into posting enough content that a reasonable case can be made against a couple players, and a reasonable case can be made for clearing the rest. So long as there is a player out there that I don't have enough information on to found an opinion upon, I'll refuse to extend that player the benefit of the doubt.

My wall of shame

Carrotcake: 7 posts, last post on Saturday

needs a prod

, has posted in other games as late as today, no content
DanMonkey: 4 posts, last post on Sunday, consistent with other games, almost needs a prod, no content.
dylan41985: 5 posts, last post today, made 10 other game posts today, was on J-man bandwagon, no content
fak: 4 posts, last post on Saturday

needs a prod

, made 11 posts in other games as late as Monday, was on J-man bandwagon, no content
molestargazer: 9 posts, last post on Sunday, almost needs a prod, only current game on mafiascum, very little content
Tromboner: 10 posts, last post on Tuesday, consistent with other games, was on J-man bandwagon. very little content

Note: I am human, and I make mistakes. If I made one, please point it out, and I'll apologize.

pickemgenius has plenty of posts, but they seem a little skimpy or wishy washy to me. Low content. He very nearly made the wall.

We have several town players who are hurting the town by not being active. If you want to win, start posting. About one post a day is considered polite, as is announcing if you are going to be gone for more than 48 hours. Start posting, and put some opinions in them. If you are town, you do not need to worry about a quick-lynch. Just be honest and open, and it will all work out just fine for us. Continued lurking will only hurt us.

Mod: Respectfully request a prod for Carrotcake and fak, and possibly for molestargazer and DanMonkey

Once again repeats a strategy that she attacks me for (then says she was mistaken, or something)

Found it:

However, it is extremely unhelpful for the town for someone to refuse to claim when they are about to be lynched.

I agree with that.

I think I was interpreting your case to be that we should bandwagon players in sequence until each player claims, or looks scummy enough for someone to drop the hammer.

Regarding J-man, i have my doubts, but not enough to vote for him yet, and certainly

not

enough to support his lynching.

Question for entire town: J-man claimed vanilla, do you believe him?

Adel didn't like that she thought I wanted to bandwagon everyone in the game until they claim, yet she wants to bandwagon them all for "information"...

Do you have enough confidence in your conclusion that you would be happy to see him hang without additional evidence?

Oh, and I totally don't expect you to answer that if you think you have a decent reason not to. I didn't think it through all of the way.

Tries to allude that I might have a claim to back up my suspicions, even though it's

Day 1

...

unvote:dylan41985

and just for emphasis

vote dylan41985

again.

She had previously said that Hanlon's razor may apply, yet continues to vote for dylan.

Please again tell me where I imply I want J-man to be lynched.

FoS:pickemgenius

for not seeing that it is clearly there.

Note that Adel had previously said that more pressure should be applied to pickem, yet she completely ignored that argument, only stopping to FoS him at an opportune moment, far into the discussion.

Yes. But.... J-man still look a little guilty, dylan41985 isn't doing much to clear himself, and we have two replacements coming in who are suspect to begin with. I fear the danger will be too many good scum candidates to choose from. You're doing a good job with pickemgenius so far. I bet I'll be on that wagon sooner or later.

Still bowing out of the pickem argument, letting me take the heat for it from other players, while keeping her options open so that she can support it later, if need be.

1.

what

why the

serious slip up?
2.

how

why

am I trying to feign ignorance from what i've done?
3. Please again tell me

where

why

I imply/say I want J-man to be lynched.

Lets see you answer your own questions.

unvote:dylan41985 vote:pickemgenius

My vote may swing back to dylan41985 at any time for tactical reasons. If I could put 1/2 vote on each I would.

Finally decides it advantageous to vote pickem, but leaves herself an opening to go back to dylan whenever she feels like it. What

tactical reasons

could you possibly have had?

You guys are freaking out on pickem for what seems to be absolutely nothing.

I sure MoS will make a more spirited defense, but it did seem a little like pickemgenuis in the post in question was either
a)giving subtle encouragement for someone else to drop the hammer,
b) fishing for an excuse to drop the hammer, or
c)making a strong pro-town statement in slight defense of a townie he knew was about to be mis-lynched.
I think a) is the most likely, and c) is the least, but all of them are possible outcomes that would benefit pickemgenuis is he were scum and J-man is town. I didn't take that post to be too scummy. pickemgenius's later defense of that post seemed a little scummy though, and MoS seems really convinced.

The primary scumtell I'm holding against pickemgenuis is a low content:postiness ratio. Which is exactly what you accused me of. Ironic.

I <3 being called odd. Thanks.

J-man, pickemgenuis, and dylan are my scummiest, which isn't saying much since MoS and the Admiral are the only ones I've kinda cleard in my head. Kate I don't know about, and the others haven't posted enough, yet.

Now that she's on his wagon, she repeats my arguments, but still defers to me to make the stronger presentation. Seems to think that his post wasn't all the scummy, but became "convinced" by my own conviction about the case. I find it odd that Adel seems to find ThAdmiral so protown, without ever providing reason for it.

Only scum try to coerce people into doing their job for them.

That isn't always true. Just leave it at that.

Setting up for her own defense again.

it is kind of suspicious that Mastermind of Sin confidently states that "J-man is not scum." Are they working together?

Mastermind - can you explain why he isn't scum?

*sigh*

unvote:pickemgenius vote:dylan41985

Goes back to the VI on a whim, thanks to her earlier setup-post.

One more thing. I can understand the hatin' on Dylan, but it seems odd that you guys are gonna lynch him for being the most active of the lurkers. At least be consistent and lynch the biggest lurker (probably DanMonkey).

I don't know about the others, but I use a modified definition for lurking. Lurking does not just equal low word count. Not posting to the point of being replaced is not lurking, IMHO, that is just leaving the game in a very impolite way. Only making occasional useless posts is lurking, posting without original insights or opinions is lurking. The kind of lurking Dylan is doing is a big scumtell, the kind that Danthemonkey did isn't because he just got replaced.

Defending scumpartner, not taking into account Hanlon's razor.

So the new way to defend yourself is to not defend yourself. Huh. I think I like it.

unvote:dylan41985

for consistently not posting content, oh the irony.

Lets talk some more. I 'm starting to get worried that he in an inexperienced newbie and not inexperienced scum.

Not getting enough support for the dylan-wagon to push it all the way, so she backs off again.

That's getting through about 60 of her posts. She has 110 posts, so I'm going to stop her, as I believe I've set a good enough argument to get this started. Perhaps I'll have time later. One other thing I was going to go back and point out was the frequency with which Adel used questioning others as a way to seem like she was posting even more content than she was. If needed, I can go back and quote all the times she's done it, but I'm sure most of you can read...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Anyways, for those who don't feel like rereading, Adel mentioned Num7 and his predecessor a total of four times in this entire thread before I brought up their scumpairing. Once was on her wall of shame for lurkers, and then she defended his lurking, saying it wasn't scummy, and the other two times, she mentioned Num7 merely in passing while addressing someone else.

Num7 has only mentioned Adel twice, both times in his analysis of every players during his reread. The second time, he only said that he felt she was protown, without adding any other content about her. He failed to mention that she has been following me around for most of the game, which is a pretty scummy action in and of itself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

post 1: no adel
post 2: adel
post 3: no adel (saying we'll miss you in response to a V/LA post does not count)
post 4: no adel
post 5: no adel
post 6: no adel
post 7: no adel
post 8: no adel
post 9: no adel
post 10: mentions Adel's name in response to ckd's scumgroup theory, says nothing about her or to her
post 11: same thing, basically
post 12: says he has a protown read on adel, that's it
post 13: no adel
post 14: no adel
post 15: no adel
post 16: I missed this one, he quotes her once and talks about how Dylan would be a good lynch
post 17: no adel
post 18 and 19: after I brought up the Adel/Num scumgroup, so that doesn't count

Even if I give you benefit of the doubt and count stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with you addressing her or talking about her specifically, that's 6 posts, nowhere near the supposed 8 posts that referred to her. If we take out the posts that don't count, you've mentioned her 3 times, only one above what I originally said (as I said, I missed post 16's quote). So neither is my premise flawed, nor is my conclusion WIFOM, because each of you have made scummy actions on your own, and you seem to be actively ignoring each other, only stopping to say that the other was protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

WHAT!?

unvote, vote: Adel

[Mastermind of Sin]

wtf? Why in hell would I ask for the doc protect? You're making a lot of ludicrous assumptions about me, Adel.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, in some of the rest of your posts, you accuse Adel of following you around - and yet I can't see much evidence of that, apart from supporting the J-man wagons which you are solidly against.

Note that I only got through half her posts. She shows more evidence of following me later on in the thread.

unvote, vote: Adel

This looks like OMGUS - even though you have provided reasons beforehand, only voting now after you've got 2 votes is discomforting (If that's a word).

Please note that I simulposted with Crub. My post was in direct response to Adel. In fact, it wasn't until you mentioned his vote in your post that I realized he was voting me. That's almost as disconcerting as Adel's own vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Like you didn't with Num7, myself and pickem?

You are the most experienced player, if you lead a bandwagon against scum revealing yourself to be very-protown you can almost bet that you will receive a NK unless you get a doc protect. With one VI and a couple other new players it wouldn't hurt to ask for the protection of a doctor, and even if you didn;t ask for it you would probably still receive it.

Whether or not I would receive it is up to the doctor. I have never asked for a doc protect without a power role to support it. I do not play this game for survival. If I die because I was being useful to the town, all the better. That merely proves that my methods were effective, and the scum felt threatened by me. My death not only serves to prove that I may have been on the right track, but it keeps a power role from getting killed as well. I do sometimes attempt to act a little scummy, in order to not draw a nightkill, but I do not often give thought to that as a strategy, focusing more on just finding scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This isn't saying I'm positive MoS is town, but if shenanigans like that start happening, he pobably is.

Good warning. Do you think Curb's vote is an example of that?

ckd: my vote for pickem was an example of me following MoS's lead. I gave him the benifit of the doubt, and I was prepared to unvote if he came to lynch -1 without me being convinced.

MoS's posting has confused me for most of the game. From his early post declaring that I am definitely protown on, I've looked for an explanation. For a little while I decided that he was the cop, and he was collecting evidence, but it wasn't until he made a vote for Num7 that I figured out that he is scum rolefishing. My vote for ThAdmiral was a ploy to see who would attack me for my vote on ThAdmiral and not also criticize MoS.

So, you're claiming that you've been following me around all game as a "ploy" to see if I was scum or cop? Bullshit.

And what information would you have gained out of anyone attacking you and not me? You're the one who blatantly followed my lead, while avoiding voting for your scumbuddy, in order to not form a wagon on him.

What is the difference between a cop collecting evidence and a scum rolefishing? The cop is more interested in pressure after the bandwagon has formed- adding stress to the scum hoping for a slip, and the rolefisher is more interested in creating the framework for a bandwagon.

I do not think that I am ascribing scum like attributes to MoS. If he really thought pickem was scum pickem would be hanging right now. In my games I've led several bandwagons to lynch, I have a horrible record for success, but when I've been convinced that someone was scum the evidence that led me to that belief has always been enough to convince other people. Usually my target has been the VI- and a mislynch has been the result, which is why I am so weary of lynching weak players now. I would rather have saved this case against MoS until tomorrow, but another lesson from my games is that I am really likely to die night 1.

I do not think it is unfair to expect MoS to have identified scum by now if he were town. Look at some of his games, he is a great player. I don't claim that he should have 100% accuracy or anything, but he should've been convinced that he found scum and presented his case in a forceful enough way to produce a lynch long before now. He is not town, so his case against Num7 must be for rolefishing.

If his case against Num7 had been good, I would still be questioning his alignment, and I would have continued to follow his lead. I have no trouble giving a better player the benefit of the doubt- most of the time they will be town and as long as I am able to keep an open and skeptical mind I don't think it is a bad idea.

Have you ever heard of the Cassandra award? This is a scummy that used to be awarded when I first joined Mafiascum (it was removed after the first year I was here). This award was given to the person who continued to find scum in their games, but could not convince the town to lynch them. I've been a shoe-in for this award for the last two years, had it still existed. Phoebus still ribs me about it from time to time. Anyways, the point is, had you read my games, you'd notice the pattern of me not being able to get scum actually lynched. Pooky and I had a rivarly for almost a year, because he was always scum and got me lynched when I found him out as scum. The fact that you would assert that a protown-me would have been able to bring about a lynch already is quite laughable.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's because it doesn't exist anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So in three years you haven't learned how to get scum lynched? As you say, bullshit.

It's a great failing of mine. I'm currently working on changing my playstyle in order to try and be more successful at finding scum (this game happens to be an example), but I haven't ever really focused on improving my ability to convince everyone else. At least, once I die and they know I'm protown, they can go back and lynch the scumz.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So in three years you haven't learned how to get scum lynched? As you say, bullshit.

I don't like this. Experience doesn't make one omnipotent. If MoS could "generate a case strong enough to lynch any player", wouldn't that mean he would always win, whether scum or town? People are different enough, unpredictable enough, and clever enough, that it's quite possible MoS hasn't "learned how to get scum lynched".

@MoS
I don't see a Cassandra award listed in any of the Scummmies in the Wiki....

I mentioned it in both the threads for the 2005 and 2006 scummies. I believe it was an award or suggested award for the 2004 scummies, but I can't find that thread.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's because it doesn't exist anymore.

But shouldn't the award be listed in the 2003 or 2004 scummies even if it has been discontinued?

It should be, unless they never gave out an award for it. I didn't join until 04 (i think), so I wouldn't know. This conversation is quickly becoming irrelevant, however. The original point is that it has been documented that I have a hard time convincing people to follow me to a lynch, so saying that I am scum for not having convinced the town to lynch someone already is absolute bullshit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

my vote for pickem was an example of me following MoS's lead. I gave him the benifit of the doubt, and I was prepared to unvote if he came to lynch -1 without me being convinced.

- So you're saying it was basically a pressure vote?

Almost. I was willing to follow MoS's lead up until a point, thinking that he had picked up on something that I missed.

Did anyone notice how many times I asked MoS to present his full case against pickem?

Does everyone else realize that MoS's 61% victory record indicates that he is a very good player?

That MoS won the Cassandra award says that three years ago he was good at picking out scum, but not so good at convincing the town. Receiving that award would prompt any player to become more confident when he thinks he finds scum, and try harder to convince the town that he is correct. Three years later he claims that he still isn't any good at convincing the town, unbelievable: I do not believe it.

You're wrong. I never won such an award, so there was no proof for the lazy newbie to notice that I'm generally good at finding scum. My elegibility for the Cassandra award has been in the last two years (note that I referred to the 2005 and 2006 scummies), had it still existed. In fact, Phoebus regularly ribs me about the fact that I'm a "Cassandra". I am quite confident when I find scum, as I was then. It was not a matter of confidence.

Your argument is so full of holes, it wouldn't serve as an umbrella. If I am supposedly so skilled at convincing people someone is scum, this would apply to me as town AND scum. Regardless of my alignment, by your supposition, I should be able to maneuver the town into doing whatever I want them to do. You cite my win percentage, forgetting the fact that not every game was due to my skill alone. You are trying to present a Burden of Proficiency, and that is a logical fallacy in and of itself. The fact that you have gone from presenting reasonable arguments and logic to OMGUSing with craplogic and bullshit only further convinces me that you are scum and I have caught you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Is anyone not completely confused by this game? I get the feeling no matter who we lynch and no matter if they're town or scum I'll have not much of an idea who is scum for tomorrow.

Can we get an updated votecount please?

speak for yourself

agreed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hell yes! Take that you stupid deadline. This thread is rolling right on to page 30 of D1. Per, can we go deadlineless for as long as possible? I want to set a record.

Will finish re-read tonight, promise.

Let's beat Mafia 64! It had a 57 page Day 1 with 20 players, and we only have 12, which would make us more awesome!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Leaving tonight for Thespival, I'll be back Tuesday. Please vote Adel ^_^

[Mastermind of Sin]

Seems like a waste of a thread. Probably best to wait 'till the game is over. I checked the archives once over, and it seems like we're in the lead on minis, and if we're all verbose enough to do that, we could definitely manage to take longest mini period. (Communique isn't even over and still has more than 50 pages, so there's some stiff competition)

Re-read update: Fuck Page 19, but

FUCK

Page 20. I think I'm over the hump right now, but I'm not sure how good my judgement will be by 1 a.m. I might call it a night.

Communique was well into D2 by the time they hit 35 pages. They're deadlined on D3 at 50 pages, so if we keep up the pace, we'll be fine.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Please vote Adel. I do not want to have to analyze another 60 of her posts to spell it out for you. You can do that work yourself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I stayed an extra day

[Mastermind of Sin]

I like this guy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I like this guy.

QFT. Very solid analysis there. I don't necessarily agree with everything he said, but I like to see a player who thinks logically. Welcome to the game. I am looking forward to that PBPA on Adel.

@MoS
Everyone has been waiting for you to get back and post a defense. Now you're back, but you have written only 9 words so far. Are you at least catching up on the thread and preparing a big post?

It looks like NabNab has just posted almost exactly this same thing. Oh well.

I've caught up on the thread, yes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Re-read update: Finished!


A general outline on the impression most players gave me:

TOWN:

Adel: I'm sorry MoS, but Adel had numerous opportunities in-thread to facilitate a lynch and she (obviously) took none of them. After re-reading the thread and re-reading your accusations of her, I find myself totally unconvinced, and I'm not even sure what you're accusing her of. Following you around? Being on the Dylan bandwagon? Not talking to Num? Your PBPA pointed out inconsitencies and things that might seem moderately scummy in isolation, but I saw no overarching case saying "Adel is scum, this is her nefarious scum plan."

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here, NabNab. Adel had the chance to make sure a lynch happened, and so did I. That doesn't make her town and me scum. Obviously, if one of us is scum, we didn't want to push through a lynch at that time. Any reasoning you give for Scum-MoS not to have let a lynch go through could easily apply to Scum-Adel, so I don't think the fact that neither of us let a lynch happen is a tell either way.

Why are you expecting me to present you with a "nefarious scum plan"? Since when do scum have to have a specific plan in mind with they play a game? I can't remember the last time I've started off a game as scum and had something planned out to do, so I'm hardly expecting to find some sort of overarching case against

anyone

, at this point.

Crub/J-Man: J-Man was VI'sh, but in many ways, I found him scummy as well. He seemed eager to wagon, and his claim never sat right with me, neither did MoS's complete 180 on him. Crub hasn't done all that much to improve his position, most of his posting has been unhelpful, and he's showing the same wagoning tendancines as J-Man.

So you're saying that I'm being bussed by my scumbuddy Crub, who I built a wagon on originally and then decided I didn't actually want lynched?

MoS: I'm agreeing with Adel on the rolefishing accusations (though I'm not quite as vehement)

It is helpful for someone to claim before they are lynched. At this point, I intend to lynch J-man, and his most recent posts have only convinced me further. Since he was only 2 votes away from lynch, I wanted him to claim. If he claim was believable, then we can leave him alive. It is better that we not lynch someone whose claim we believe is protown and make the scum have to kill them, rather than do the scum's work for them. I am not claiming that people should claim without pressure. That is not helpful. However, it is extremely unhelpful for the town for someone to refuse to claim when they are about to be lynched.

That post in particular sums things up. I think MoS has had too many inconsitencies in his play to be explained away by scum hunting. He bussed J-Man heavily then called it off. He attacked Pickem, but went buddy-buddy when it's obvious his case wouldn't stick. He claimed early on Adel was pro-town, but has now decided flip on that too. When MoS posts, there is always an air of calculation about as if he's trying to draw the town this way or that. His recent case against Adel seals the deal, because it seems he just plumb ran out of scummy players he would be able to wagon, and had to set up a less than plausible case.

Pickem made a protown post, and I'm suddenly scummy for having my suspicion of him go down as a result? The case against pickem has been "obvious" that it "wouldn't stick" for quite some time before he made that post, so I think you're stretching to imply that my lowering of suspicion is a direct result of realizing the case "wouldn't stick".

Why is it scummy to change your mind on things? Adel has not been suspicious of me for most of the game, but as soon as I start suggesting her in a scumgroup, she OMGUS's me, and

I'm the one that's scummy?

Don't give me that bullshit.

Stop trying to place a burden of proficiency on me. "Air of calculation"? Rofl. You clearly don't know me that well. My play in

any

game is far from calculated. I don't even hit preview before I post. My style of play is from the seat of my pants, and there's nothing

calculated

about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think MoS has had too many inconsitencies in his play to be explained away by scum hunting. He bussed J-Man heavily then called it off. He attacked Pickem, but went buddy-buddy when it's obvious his case wouldn't stick. He claimed early on Adel was pro-town, but has now decided flip on that too. When MoS posts, there is always an air of calculation about as if he's trying to draw the town this way or that. His recent case against Adel seals the deal, because it seems he just plumb ran out of scummy players he would be able to wagon, and had to set up a less than plausible case.

Notice that his original case centered more on Num7, although I was named as his likely scum partner. Notice how quickly changed his vote to me after I started attacking him.

Notice how quickly Adel started attacking me after I suggested she was scum.

I really like MoS's last couple of posts telling/asking people to vote for me. sn't it similar to how he acted towards pickem earlier? He concludes that someone is scum, then basically says "you read the posts and see for yourself why it is obvious" instead of presenting his case in a manner that would stand a chance of actually convincing many other people. I think he wants to arouse enough suspicion to force a claim, but not yield a mislynch.

Actually, against pickem, I repeated the case multiple times, and only told people to go back and read the case themselves, since it had already been stated. With your case, I laid the groundwork and encouraged people to do their own reading, since it takes a long time to do a PBPA of 130 posts. Why exactly would I

want

to make a case that would not convince people? What are the benefits of this if I am scum? If I don't want to yield a mislynch, who am I planning to lynch as scum? Why would I

not

want a mislynch!? Your arguments are that I would not do something that benefits scum (if I was scum), and that's completely illogical, Adel.

Remember that he wanted to set the president of claiming at -2 to lynch... I didn't consider that a scumtell until later when I became convinced that he was scum chasing the power roles. Remember when he encouraged us to beat the record of mafia 64? I think that he seriously wants this day to drag on for as long as possible.

Again, what is the benefit of this? If I am scum, the longer the day drags on, the more likely I am to pull suspicion on myself. No player is perfect, and even the best scum (which I am certainly not) drop tells eventually. It is in the scum's benefit to have quick days, although most scum would not openly push for a fast day. It is idiotic to suggest that

because

someone wanted to extend the day, they are scum. It is a complete and utter null tell.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have been convinced.

Unvote
Vote: MoS

This might seem cowardly: hopping on the MoS wagon now that he's away, but his behavior as he left together with NabNab's analysis have put me firmly on the anti-MoS side. I am looking forward to his defense when he comes back. He is at L-2 now, correct?
MoS has been latching onto a player, and focusing on him with captain-Ahab-like obsession. That is, until he completely abandons the case and jumps onto the next one with all his might.

Yup. And?

Until recently, he had me convinced that he was an agressive scumhunter. Even after his weird case against me I still thought he could be OK, and ought to be saved until D2. But his smug "Please vote Adel" and "You can do that work yourself" was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Just because I'm not willing to make it easy for scum to just say "I agree with MoS" instead of presenting

some

reasoning of their own, that doesn't make me scum.

MoS is arguing his case through repitition, and using an implicit ad hominem attack on those not voting Adel. Taken together with his history of simlutaneous flip-flopping and excessive confidence... Blech. I've been looking to move my vote, and the more I think about it, the more I believe that it belongs right here on MoS.

Talk to people that were at Thespival. What you just described is about the strongest town tell you'll ever get on me, and you're trying to skew it to say I'm scum, LoL.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You are right. It is like many players are already playing for a deadline. I fear that I may be ascribing him god-like powers, but I expect that MoS will not get lynched if he is given enough of a chance to build a case after he gets back. I think he is scum, but will prove to be very slippery for most of the game. However, I think giving Tar a chance to contribute before the end of the day is a good idea, and so I basically support letting the day stall until Tar and MoS get a chance to post.

FoS: Num7

because it just occurred to me that he may be scum buddying up to me, albeit in a very coy and subtle way.

ROFL. So now I am scum with a possible scumbuddy of Num7, who I started to bus and then voted you after you OMGUS'd me, and my master plan is to make the day drag on forever to what purpose again?

[Mastermind of Sin]

No-one's asked me for my take on the MoS wagon..
So you're going to get it anyway - I've not taken sides till now, and hopefully this post will get things clearer in my head. Most likely not.

In my opinion, the MoS wagon has built up very quickly since Adel and Crub voted for him on Page 27. This was immediately followed by a plain OMGUS vote - despite all the previous reasonings against Adel, I don't think that he intended to vote for her quite at that time, and this post...

This looks like OMGUS - even though you have provided reasons beforehand, only voting now after you've got 2 votes is discomforting (If that's a word).

Please note that I simulposted with Crub. My post was in direct response to Adel. In fact, it wasn't until you mentioned his vote in your post that I realized he was voting me. That's almost as disconcerting as Adel's own vote.

... dodges the OMGUS accusation, focusing more on my saying that he'd voted after Crub's second one.

I didn't feel like it was something that needed to be addressed directly. I wasn't

dodging

it, but I felt that the second half of your statement had a more tangible accusation to respond to. Yes, to a point, the vote WAS OMGUS. Of course, your comment failed to take into account that Adel OMGUS'd me originally with

her

vote. You're right. I hadn't intended her to be my top suspicion, but I could see no reason for a town Adel to take the actions she took regarding my own accusations, and that prompted me to take a closer look at her posts in particular.

Unfortunately, Adel is right from what I can tell in that he's built up a case against a lot of players within this game and not really acted - yet going out of his way to protect Dylan, in my opinion the scummiest player in the game until recently.

Could you explain what you mean by "not really acted"? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Having said that, both sides are at fault, with Adel seemingly attributing MoS with God-like scum-hunting powers and talking about asking for a Doc Protect - which isn't happening.
Crub seemed to go downhill in my opinion from his vote, at the same time as Adel, voting for MoS. Some of the arguments to me appear to be a little flimsy, yet I don't quite think he would be a good vote, looking at the more scummy things happening between MoS and Adel.

So, you're claiming that you've been following me around all game as a "ploy" to see if I was scum or cop? Bullshit.

That isn't what Adel said.

What do you think the implications were, then?

It should be, unless they never gave out an award for it. I didn't join until 04 (i think), so I wouldn't know. This conversation is quickly becoming irrelevant, however.

Quick, convenient change of topic for a townish reason?

What do you mean by this? There is no point in arguing whether or not the award was actually ever given out. It's been proven that the

idea

for the award was there, and the only purpose it served was as a reference point to prove that placing a Burden of Proficiency argument on me is complete bullshit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MSG: it was something that occurred to me while I was thinking about the game. I wrote it down mostly to remind myself to look for it when I do my next read-through, but I am kinda hoping someone else will do the detective work first.

My though process went like this:

Assumed: Num7 is scum.

What are his actions so far during this day?
Intelligent postings of decent length posted less frequently than other players. Replaced a player I didn't have a read on. Voted for ckd before I did, and for seemingly good reasons. May have followed my vote for ThAdmiral (can't remember, don't have time to look it up. Seems to have agreed with most of my posts. Voted for MoS after I did.

Who are his scum buddies? He could be bussing MoS. MoS's attack on Num7 could have been a distancing tactic. ckd didn't lump him with me or Crub. Was he the one attacking Hungry Joe? Was it him or ckd that was attacking MSG earlier. Has he had any interaction with Katie?

How has he interacted with me? Nothing very direct. I think we've agreed on our evaluations of most other players. How often did his stance come before mine? Is he following my lead?

I would normally do a read-through to collect evidence but I don't have time right now. I usually issue a FoS when I have a hunch and a decent theory, but I haven't gone through the evidence throughly. My hunch against Num7 is party due to my conviction that MoS is scum: I was trying to figure out who MoS's scumbuddies are when I read those tells for the first time.

Does someone else want to do the initial detective work? I am still all about a MoS lynch in the meantime.

What is this a quote of?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@ThAdmiral: Of course it's easy to skew the findings of a re-read (especially when most are too daunted to do one themselves), but that doesn't automatically make all re-reads malicious attempts to wagon a player. I'd like to think that I went into the thread with a fairly open mind, and the conclusions I drew are my own. The most convincing conclusion I drew was that MoS has pulled a 180 far too many times for my liking. My main concerns are not even that he's blatantly (or effectively) rolefishing, because you're right, we're all a bit guilty of that. What caused my suspicions the most were his sudden, unexplained changes of heart on various players. To me, they just rang false.

I'm rolefishing, despite the fact that the only person I even remotely said should claim was J-man (and maybe pickem, I honestly can't remember if I asked him to claim)?

Go back and look at my post. The vote I placed was for pressure, I wanted to hear what he had to say (even though it might take a little while if he isn't posting from Thespival) on the matter, and I thought a bit more pressure might take him out of his "Vote Adel kthx" bent and actually get him talking. When two votes followed mine in quick sucession, I unvoted, because a lynch isn't my goal (yet).

And, much in the same way I may be seeing MoS fumbling, I think you're fumbling too, ThAdmiral. This town has discussed enough and examined enough to get some of our possible lynchees (J-Man, Dylan, CKD) off the hook. Each player (no offense intended) fits the profile of the easy scum lynch, a sincere yet inexperienced or unskilled town player who can say enough stupid things to get themselves killed. Could one of them be mafia? Probably, but we've saved at least one townie from being the easy D1 lynch, and as more and more easy lynches are rightly or wrongly cleared, I can see more and more people fumbling for a new nexus of suspicion. MoS found himself having to go after Num and Adel, but he was quickly turned down. You've been laying it on me pretty thick, ThAdmiral, yet I have set no real precedent for scummy behavior, so I can imagine no source for your scummy profiling of me besides fear for MoS or the desprate hope for a new target.

Like they always say: Long days are good for the town.

You do realize that, of the three "possible lynchees" you listed, I only pushed a lynch on one of them (iirc)? I'm pretty sure I defended dylan and ckd instead of bandwagoning them. So, I pushed a lynch against one person, specifically defended two other "easy lynches" instead of pushing them all the way to lynch, and then decided that I

had

to go after Num7 and Adel? I was the one that saved both VI's from lynch. It was because of me that we cleared them and have to find someone else to lynch. You're saying that I purposefully made it so that we didn't have an easy lynch and then had to "fumble" for a new nexus of suspicion? If I was scum, why would I have picked Adel and Num7, two people that had not received very much suspicion. Why not molestargazer, who I had voted earlier in the game? Why not Kate, who was generally suspected by all? Why not HungryJoe or ThAdmiral, either of which would be construed as scummy (perhaps not both, I'm in severals games with either/both of ThAdmiral and HungryJoe, and I can't keep straight which games I'm suspicious of them in, and which one I'm suspicious of, but I'm sure that one of them was susipcious in this game). Why would I specifically choose Adel and Num7, were I scum just looking to start quick bandwagons that would force a claim?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Did I miss anything?

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're right, I did attack ckd. That's why I put "iirc" when I said I only pushed one of them, because I can't remember everything I did. I just barely remember the replacement thing, now that you've mentioned it.

And no, I don't think I'm always scummy. Far from it, in fact. My point was that he described my playstyle nearly in a nutshell, although I'm sure that I make slight deviations depending on the game. Being extremely confident, but willing to change your mind upon further evidence is NOT a scumtell, as far as I'm concerned.

-Defending a buddy (null, no established scum yet)
-Defending a townie to gain cred if they're lynched
-Prolonged rolefishing
-Attempts to bring about a poor deadline lynch
-Running or sticking with a broken down bandwagon.

I don't necessarily agree with all of these supposed tells.

The first one, of course, is a scumtell, but you forget that attacking a buddy to distance from them is also a scumtell.
The second one I agree with, to the point that it's something scum would do, although I'd like to hear how you plan to differentiate between scum defending a townie and town realizing that person isn't scum.
The third one I definitely agree with, as well as the fourth.
I completely disagree on your last point, however. Scum are far more likely to get off a broken down wagon, instead of stubbornly pushing it when no one agrees with them. That puts too much of a spotlight on them, and scum aren't willing to risk such a thing, usually.

[Mastermind of Sin]

alright I'm going to post my list, but I hope everyone else does too.

SCUM:
Mastermind of Sin
molestargazer
Kate

TOWN:
Yours truly
Adel
curiouskarmadog
Nabakov

^^

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS: Nice breakdown of the tells, I kind of just added the last one in to round out the list, but I didn't bother to actually think about it. However, the vague, two way nature of the tells we should be looking for at this point are going to make this an even harder fight for the town.

In general, good defense, I'm hoping the slip up on CKD was just sleep deprivation from Thespival, but the rest seems fairly solid. I'm still not on board with your case on Adel, but I'm not all that convinced you're scum anymore either.

I think some real scrutiny should be paid to ThAdmiral as he seems to exhibit more of the tells on my list that others (except of course the last one). However, it's somebody else's turn to read the damn thread. I'll be gone from the 21st to the 1st, but I'll leave a healthy

FOS: ThAdmiral

as a reminder. (I'll still be posting tomorrow, but whatever)

It wasn't sleep deprivation that I forgot about ckd. It was just a combination of having so much happen in this game, being in a lot of games at once, and being away from the site for a whole week, so I just forgot that it had happened.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Talk to people that were at Thespival. What you just described is about the strongest town tell you'll ever get on me, and you're trying to skew it to say I'm scum, LoL.

Isn't talking about a game outside the thread against the rules?

Only if you refer to the game specifically. It'd be perfectly ok to go up to someone and be like: "Would you say that when MoS is town he's more likely to be extremely confident in his suspicions and sometimes make a complete 180 turnaround if he sees new evidence?" As long as you don't reference a particular game, it's fine.

I was the one that saved both VI's from lynch. It was because of me that we cleared them and have to find someone else to lynch.

I certainly don't consider dylan cleared. He's not on the top of anyone's scumlist (except Admiral's), and I seriously doubt he will be lynched, but I think many people have him in mind as possible scum if more (different) evidence turns up. I know I do.

Of course people are still suspicious of him. I was just referring to the fact that someone else said that we attacked and cleared three people.

Being extremely confident, but willing to change your mind upon further evidence is NOT a scumtell, as far as I'm concerned.

The way I see it, being very confident encourages others to follow your lead. If you are willing to change your opinion quickly, you had no business being so certain in the first place.

I really do think we ought to look into your claim that this is your playstyle, not a scumtell. I suppose I could sift through all your games and try to get a feel for your playstyle, but that would be a heck of a lot of work. Would you happen to have a link or two handy which demonstrate your playstyle, both as town and as scum?

hmm, I don't know if I have a game that's not ongoing that showcases what I'm doing here, since this was a somewhat recent playstyle change. For my play as town, my best recommendation would be to talk to the people from Thespival (Alky, PJ, Pooky, Mith, Thesp, etc). Here's a few finished games where I was scum:

Bad Idea II
Post Restriction III
Choose Someone Else's Role
Choose Your Own Role
Saints and Sinners
Space Transport

[Mastermind of Sin]

i'm back, i'll reread tomorrow prolly

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS: I'd like your opinion on something:

Assuming that both you and I are town, do you think Num7 could be buddying up to me?

At this point, who do you think could be buddying up to you?

It's a *possibility*, but I don't find it very probable. Buddying up to me? ThAdmiral.

[Mastermind of Sin]

if the votes swell against MoS again, I might switch my vote again to him

Why would more votes on MoS cause you to move your vote to him? Looking for a bandwagon to join?

MoS: I'd like your opinion on something:

Assuming that both you and I are town, do you think Num7 could be buddying up to me?

At this point, who do you think could be buddying up to you?

1)Why are you asking MoS?
2)Why assume that both of you are town? I think that is rather unlikely. You have been going at each other tooth and claw.

WHOA WHOA WHOA. Alarm bells going off in my head so hard I've got a headache! Question #2 is a perfect setup for scum. By stating that you think one or the other of us is scum, then you set up a 1-2 lynch if one of us gets lynched and turns up town. Not to mention that it is totally bullshit to say that two people arguing a lot have to have different alignments. That in and of itself is suspicious, and you used that statement to justify the setup for a double mislynch.

Major FoS: Num7

I'm

VERY

tempt to vote you after this, but I'm still convinced Adel is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Num7, fyi, you probably should've been reading Adel's post as "If we assume that..."

[Mastermind of Sin]

*sigh*

[Mastermind of Sin]

it'd be nice if anyone else was even here...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Argh...

[Mastermind of Sin]

People I am nearly 100% certain are not scum:

NabNab

People that are probably not scum:

Tarhalindur
dylan

People who looked protown, then turned scummy:

Adel
Num7
Crub

People who looked scummy, then turned protown:

ckd
pickem

Unknown:

ThAdmiral
Molestargazer
Kate

Disclaimer: These categories are generalized and may not fully reflect the entirety of what has happened in the thread. I'm just letting you know where I stand.

[Mastermind of Sin]

WHOA. Freudian slip, much? That is a HUGE one. "If someone looked up this game they'd know I was scum in 399"? Wow.

Major FoS: Kate

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Num7

He's at the center of all the most likely scumgroups I can come up with, and his last post doesn't sit well with me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I can see Adel and/or Kate being scum with Num7. Kate's meaning wasn't very obvious when she made her post, and it seems to me that a scum-Num7 would be more likely to try and answer for her, in order to provide a reasonable explanation, because he'd be worried that she could not provide a reasonable explanation on her own.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think Num7's apparent lack of understanding the second time around is just another mark that he's scum who answered for her the first time but took the first opportunity to try and get in our good graces by jumping on her for a similar action.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's what I thought when I first saw her post, but I think what she's saying makes sense. Let me paraphrase:

"Suppose my playstyle was different as scum than as town. In that case, another player could look at a game where I was pro-town (like this one), see that my playstyle here is different from my playstyle in another game (like 399), and conclude I am scum in that game."

I think it was just awkward wording, not a slip-up.

Why don't you look up the other game I was cop in?

Wait a minute, are you claiming cop?

The first post is the one where he answers for Kate and defends her. This second post has a different tone and feels like the start of an attack. If Num7 could understand what she was saying in her first post (which was far more obscure than the second one), I don't see why he wouldn't have understood what she was saying in the second post, instead asking if she was claiming cop.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Obviously, the game is slowing down so we can hit a lynch one post 1000 =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: *on post 1000

[Mastermind of Sin]

The first post is the one where he answers for Kate and defends her. This second post has a different tone and feels like the start of an attack. If Num7 could understand what she was saying in her first post (which was far more obscure than the second one), I don't see why he wouldn't have understood what she was saying in the second post, instead asking if she was claiming cop.

The difference was, in the first post she didn't actually say that she was scum. In the second one, she did actually say she was cop. It wasn't what she meant, but it is what she said.

Then why was it that you could understand what she meant in the first post, but you had to question what she

said

in the second post? Are you saying you understood what she meant but decided to question what she said anyways?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow. Is anyone else getting the feeling that Adel's last post is an attempt to protect Num7 from lynch without specifically saying you think he is town by essentially picking someone that you "feel" is scummier to avoid his wagon? The fact that Adel is voting someone she has no confidence will be lynched has me even more suspicious. I don't see how it could possibly be anti-town to put a lot of thought into your vote, but this statement effectively allows you to vote for CKD without

any

reason for it other than "intuition".

I'm also concerned that Adel would imply that I am a power role. There is no logical reason to separate townie and power role, where she could have said "there was a realistic chance that he is protown, and he was in danger of getting lynched."

Just when I thought I was less suspicious of Adel, and post like this comes along...argh! Stop making me have to choose

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh yea, I forgot about the whole hypocrisy on blatant rolefishing thing.

Unvote, vote: Adel

That pushes her ahead of Num7 atm. Although, if she comes up scum, I'm nearly certain Num7 will be scum as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fishing, anyone?

So I was just supposed to ignore it?

Yes. We've been over this before.


When it comes down to it, MoS has a very good point when he notes Num's inconsitencies in regards to Kate. She makes an unclear post that pulls all kinds of suspcion down on her head, and he tries to clarify it (and I'm not even sure if I buy their combined arguments. At best, its an "I'm always scummy" defense). Then she makes another post which I found much clearer, and he completely misinterperts and muddies it in addition to role-fishing.

However, I'm still not postive why Num's behavior towards Kate means he's scum if we don't have any case on Kate besides what

may

have been a slip-up and general unpleasantness. That being said, the fact that there has been no major wagon on Kate to date does seem odd, and if only for the sake of adding pressure:

Vote: Kate

Let me preface this next bit by saying I'm in a

lot

of games with Adel, and her claim of never having lynched scum D1 is completely genuine. Since she has come to that realization, I have seen her ease up in all the games she's playing, and that was good. However, she quickly found that easing up just let the games drag on and on (all our games together are still in D1). Now this seems like she's attempting to put a new strategy into effect, giving up. And while I implore her to reconsider, I'm not sure if I find this new tack to be incredibly scummy.
(Please keep in mind that all opinions stated above come from shakey, spur-of-the-moment meta-gaming)

I'd like to re-read the older backlog (Crub v. CKD) again before commenting, but I will.

NabNab, whether or not Num7 is scum does not depend on Kate's alignment. His actions do not make sense as town regardless of Kate's alignment, and there are reason for Num7-scum to do that whether she is town or scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, assume Num7 is scum and Kate is scum. Obviously, Num7 tried to answer for Kate (something that scum often do when they think their scumpartner(s) slipped up and isn't experienced enough to keep from digging the hole deeper), in order to explain away what she had said. However, he starts getting attacked for his actions, and Kate doesn't really get off the hook from it. Therefore, when she "slips up" again, he takes the opposite approach in order to try and gain some credibility from it. In addition, this sets him up to be able to join a Katewagon if it starts to form, since he's no longer defending her.

Assume Num7 is scum and Kate is town. Num7 answers for her, both to curry her favor due to the fact that he's on her side, and to seem "helpful", perhaps. This, of course, backfires, because Kate doesn't get off the hook and whatnot as stated above. Therefore, she slips up again and he does the same thing to get in position to vote her if the opportunity comes up.

Assume Num7 is town. Num7 answers for Kate because he understands her, but fails to understand whether or not she is claiming cop in the second "slip up". The logic of how this is at all possible completely escapes me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think she's just overconfident because she managed to get like 6 votes on my while I was out of town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

whoo Czech Festival! Where are you from, pickem?

[Mastermind of Sin]

ehhh perhaps. South Dakota has a pretty good Czech population. That's where half my family is from (*is 25% Czech*).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Guys. Num7 or Adel. I'll vote for either one. Let's just get a decent majority so we don't have 2 people deciding the lynch for all 12 of us. That'd be pretty lame.

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol. Ever heard of Taber, SD?

[Mastermind of Sin]

WHOA. Check out these two posts, bolded for emphasis.

I think a longer day is better for town.

There isn't much consensus as to who should be lynched, and I don't like the odds if we end up with a couple of players being able to control the outcome of this day.
I unvoted ckd because it was becoming a huge mess. Who else do you think I should vote for?

Then when calling me scum earlier in the game:

I think MoS has had too many inconsitencies in his play to be explained away by scum hunting. He bussed J-Man heavily then called it off. He attacked Pickem, but went buddy-buddy when it's obvious his case wouldn't stick. He claimed early on Adel was pro-town, but has now decided flip on that too. When MoS posts, there is always an air of calculation about as if he's trying to draw the town this way or that. His recent case against Adel seals the deal, because it seems he just plumb ran out of scummy players he would be able to wagon, and had to set up a less than plausible case.

Notice that his original case centered more on Num7, although I was named as his likely scum partner. Notice how quickly changed his vote to me after I started attacking him.

I really like MoS's last couple of posts telling/asking people to vote for me. sn't it similar to how he acted towards pickem earlier? He concludes that someone is scum, then basically says "you read the posts and see for yourself why it is obvious" instead of presenting his case in a manner that would stand a chance of actually convincing many other people. I think he wants to arouse enough suspicion to force a claim, but not yield a mislynch. Remember that he wanted to set the president of claiming at -2 to lynch... I didn't consider that a scumtell until later when I became convinced that he was scum chasing the power roles.

Remember when he encouraged us to beat the record of mafia 64? I think that he seriously wants this day to drag on for as long as possible.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ah, but even rolefishing would have its limit. Long days are, in their very nature, quite dangerous to scum. Rolefishing is not enough of a reason for scum to want a longer day, if one agrees that they are more beneficial to the town. Not to mention that a decent case could be made that Adel has done some rolefishing, so it's not like the two comments are not related.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait...did ckd

actually

say that replacements are less likely to be mafia? Umm, that is so wrong on so many levels, and it stinks of scum just trying to clear themselves by saying all the other replacements are less likely to be scum.

FoS: CKD

Wait, you know it's bad logic, but you'll stick with it? That makes no sense whatsoever. All it takes is a quick look through past games to realize that you are wrong. I can't count the number of times I have replaced into a game as scum. Off the top of my head, there was Dichotomafia and one of the DP games (11, I think). I haven't done any replacing in over a year, for the most part, so it's hard to recall the various games.

ckd, please show me a post where Dylan has been protown and I will show you a post where J-man has been protown. Please don't be a hypocrit.

Yes, I believe that ckd could very well be scum. The only people I would not be willing to lynch right now are myself, Adel, Dylen, and Crub (aka J-man)

Yes, I believe that ckd could very well be scum. The only people I would not be willing to lynch right now are myself, Adel, Dylen, and Crub (aka J-man)

I can understand how you don't see Dylan's and J-man's behavior as scummy, just newbie. But I don't see why you are so sure they're pro-town: can't newbies be scum, too?

Welcome to the game, Crub. Good beginning. I completely understand about the huge thread to catch up on: you have my sympathy. 8)

I believe newbie scum would act differently.

unvote, vote: CKD

He's just digging himself a deeper hole.

You're right, Crub. I have avoided CKD altogether, and I have not at all been outspoken in regards to CKD.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Considering those 5 posts are the most outspoken you've been about ckd in 41 pages, and comparing that to what you've said about say Adel or Pickem. Yes you have definitely been less outspoken about ckd. I didn't say you had avoided him altogether. It's practically impossible to avoid anyone altogether in 41 pages.

What about the fact that Num7 and Adel pretty much avoided each other entirely, with the exception of a few posts that barely touched on them and were not anywhere near the outspokenness of the posts that I quoted of my talking about CKD?

[Mastermind of Sin]

CKD. Do not force yourself to hang by letting Adel off the hook. One of Adel/Num7 HAS to die today, or the work I've done in the last 41 pages will be all for naught.

[Mastermind of Sin]

tunnel vision? I've only gone after half the players in the game so far on Day 1...

[Mastermind of Sin]

ckd, if you agree that Adel is scum, vote her. I don't want to have a 2-majority lynch. That would be really lame. At least if Adel is the vote leader at deadline, it shows that no one else had a stronger suspect that they agreed upon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Pickem: Exactly. Townies shouldn't have to say their townies, playing well says it loud and clear.

What do you classify as "playing well"? I know a lot of people that are rather obvious when they are town. However, that does not necessarily coordinate with being able to find scum. It is the rare and quite skilled player that can both look very protown through playstyle AND be a successful scumhunter.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Adel is apparently case in point, to an extent. I believe she said she had never been lynched D1, yes? That's quite an achievement, and it shows somewhat that she looks protown when she plays. However, she also admitted that she has never been able to lead a lynch on scum D1 either.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fair enough. My definition of playing well is not appearing scummy (and one way to not appear scummy is make good cases on actual scum). I realize that there's grey area in between, but good players look pro-town and bad players don't. I see no reason why a true scumhunter can't look pro-town too.

However, since that rule applies regardles of role, it's not all that useful. But using it can negate the "I'm townie, I swear" defense at least slightly.

[/theory]

guess that makes me a bad player then, eh? Pooky is a bad player? Internet Stranger is a bad player? Peacebringer is a bad player?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, that particular post wasn't meant to attack you or anything, Adel. I was just using your past games as evidence of my theory stated in the post before.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We must band together and lynch Adel before it's too late!

[Mastermind of Sin]

what's wrong with the first post?

and yes, I am. I've already stated where they lie on my suspicion list.

[Mastermind of Sin]

People I am nearly 100% certain are not scum:

NabNab

People that are probably not scum:

Tarhalindur
dylan

People who looked protown, then turned scummy:

Adel
Num7
Crub

People who looked scummy, then turned protown:

ckd
pickem

Unknown:

ThAdmiral
Molestargazer
Kate

Disclaimer: These categories are generalized and may not fully reflect the entirety of what has happened in the thread. I'm just letting you know where I stand.

These views? These that you posted over a week ago? So ThAdmiral is still an unknown and ckd is protown?

I think you are acting.

I still have faith in CKD's actions. I think his posts are sincere. I don't have a good enough read on ThAdmiral to call an alignment for him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ckd, I know your alignment in an ongoing game (which is why i can't reference it), and I believe you are town from how you are acting here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, CKD, I've been thinking about that mod error since I mentioned this in thread, and I think I'm inclined to agree with pickem. My entire stance on you was based with me forgetting about that entirely (and not knowing about it for a while), so

Unvote, Vote: CKD

. Adel comes tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

OMFG

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have been told I am replacing dylan. I'm waiting to receive my role pm, but in the meantime I'll try to reread a bit. I have a busy weekend coming up, so don't expect much yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Adel

Definitely sure Adel is scum. If I wasn't already 80% sure on D1, her actions at the beginning of D2 bumped it up to 90%. Analysis coming sometime next week, I have no time this weekend.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh yea, I also think that Num7 is still scum with Adel, but yea. I'll get to all that eventually.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to have to hold my analysis until this weekend. If I don't have homework to do (probably I will :/), I'll do it. Just look at Adel's posts at the beginning of D2. It's pretty obvious that she was scum. She was the one who thought MoS was the cop, she was the one who killed MoS, who was not acting like a cop at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think I need to tell anyone that I didn't think he was cop, either.

[Mastermind of Sin]

glad I'm not the only one watching this thread. Thanks for posting, MoS!

[Mastermind of Sin]

NabNab, at least look at the beginning of D2. I don't know when this will be coming, I care more about not failing my classes and managing to stay active in all my games than doing a full analysis in this game, even though D2 has only been like 8 pages.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*bump past MeMe's closing spree*

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to have to hold my analysis until this weekend. If I don't have homework to do (probably I will :/), I'll do it. Just look at Adel's posts at the beginning of D2. It's pretty obvious that she was scum. She was the one who thought MoS was the cop, she was the one who killed MoS, who was not acting like a cop at all.

I had homework

I will attempt something Tuesday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

hmm. Interesting play by Adel. At least I was right about her being scum. Num7 is almost definitely her scumpartner, given his last post. I would not be surprised if Adel threw me in with scumbuddy Tar, hoping that my inclusion would make it look like she was throwing suspicion on townies. However, I don't know enough about Tar to have more than a hunch based on Adel's behavior.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have no clue what you meant by any of that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mislynching me would make me sad. Let's not do that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unofficial Vote Count:

Adel: 5 (Albert B. Rampage, Mastermind of Sin, pickemgenius, Tarhalindur, Crub)
pickemgenius: 2 (NabakovNabakov, Adel)
Albert B. Rampage: 1 (Numenorean7)

Not voting: 3 (Kate, pickemgenius, ThAdmiral)

10 alive, 6 to lynch


Adel is indeed at L-1. She was second on my scumlist back in 1271, so I'm not against her lynch (especially since this game has seriously lost momentum), but I want to hear some sort of convincing argument from MoS first.

Interestingly enough, the Adel wagon gained 4 votes from 1281 to 1331, without any real evidence being posted. Why? Hopefully it's just frustration with the slow pace of the game, not some sort of aura left from MoS's previous incarnation.

Actually, I have problems with this post because you are only showing support for lynching her when it seems inevitable. D1 there was plenty of suspicion against Adel, and there hasn't been many more pages of evidence to add to D1's suspicion, but now you support her lynch? I smell bullshit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It didn't take MoS being protown for there to be a case against Adel. The beginning of D2 only reinforced the fact that she should have been lynched D1.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel immediately starts the day off continuing her appeals to emotion by downplaying her own skills (something she has done to such an extent that it annoys me), combined with a "the dead people were town, that sucks" comment, something that is a general scumtell.

Adel's second post seems like she's covering up her thinking I was the cop. Most people didn't seem to buy that MoS was the cop, and he didn't act like he knew he was a cop, so only someone who bought the story about him being cop would kill him at that point. The person we can guarantee falls under that category is Adel. Of course she is convinced her scumbuddies were on the ckd wagon, but I'd bet you that she started with a non-scumbuddy to start the day. I don't think Kate is scum with Adel.

Num7 encourages Adel's voting diagram, which is nothing more than a tool for scum to seem useful to the town without detrimenting themselves.

Num7 pushes a bullshit case against MSG, claiming that he's scum because he hadn't posted yet that day, when it was clear that he wasn't around after the night at all, since he wasn't posting anywhere on the site at all.

Tarhalindur makes good points for Num7 being scum, not really adding his own contribution, another mark of scum using questions and lurker hunting to cover up lack of contribution.

Num7 continues to push suspicion solely against MSG and Dylan, cop-out behavior ignoring the scummy behavior of other players. By his own admission lately, the arguments against Adel gained more weight after MoS came up protown and her posts at the beginning of D2 were made, yet Num7 isn't attacking her at all. He has resumed his complete avoidance of Adel regarding any useful topics, something that MoS picked up on D1.

On the other hand, we now know that MoS of yesterday was town, and so if he is town again we not only get a really strong player back into the game (I am still convinced of MoS prowess, even if I did use it against him incorrectly yesterday) but we also get to find out who he investigated (but sadly not the result) and probably quite a few other insights.

So you think MoS is a strong pro-town player, despite the fact that he pushed for your lynch. Are you saying he was right about you?

And I wouldn't be too surprised if he continued to push for my lynch and turned out to be scum a second time. It is perfectly conceivable to me that he would be dead wrong about me yet still be a valuable asset to the town. Since he was the cop, I'm sure he had suspicions that he didn't give voice to (waiting for the investigation). I want to know what they were. Also, I wasn't lynched yesterday, so I suspect that he didn't really want to lynch me.

This string of posts is really scummy on Adel's part. Why would finding out who MoS investigated matter without a result?

Why would an MoS who pushed Adel's lynch have to be scum the second time?

Why would MoS-Cop who thought Adel was scum for the latter half of D1 *not* investigate Adel-scum to confirm her guilt?

Why would protown MoS hide his suspicions for an entire day? Only scum would have that kind of motivation. MoS rather obviously had forgotten his role during D1 and could not have been planning to wait for an investigation.

Shame that Num7 hates my playstyle. I've actually been rather proactive and useful this game in comparison to some of my other games recently.

Dylan makes some more comments about Kate, but I'm holding to my conclusion that he is protown.

ThAdmiral makes a good summary of the MoS wagon, although I believe that NabNab's analysis was well-written and genuine, even if it was wrong.

Funny how Adel quotes a game where she was cop, and she quoted a post where she said that a guideline she picked up was to never speculate on who might be a power role. Then she turned around and speculated on MoS being the cop.

Also funny how Adel tries to implicate that dylan could be a masterful SK, even though we have no evidence that there is an SK in the game. In the same post, she "wishes" that we had a cop investigation on him, even though she was the direct cause of the cop dying. Seems like an odd comment given that the cop is dead.

Then Adel speculates on Dylan being the doc, once again breaking her own rule to never speculate on who might be a power role.

Funny that Num7 tries to say that MoS was wrong about a bunch of people being scum, even though he only barely voted for CKD, preferring a lot of other people first but wanting to get a lynch before deadline. MoS has yet to be proven wrong about the suspicions he had before he died.

Funny how Num7's suspicion list suddenly dropped Dylan entirely, even though he was attacking him earlier and advocating his lynch under the same circumstances.

This brings me up to where I entered the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Num7 encourages Adel's voting diagram, which is nothing more than a tool for scum to seem useful to the town without detrimenting themselves.

So a voting diagram is useful to the town? Then why am I scummy to ask for one?

No. A voting diagram does not introduce anything that the town does not already have. It's like making a summary of posts without analyzing them. A voting diagram is not actual contribution, but it is something that scum can use to *look* like they're being useful.

Num7 pushes a bullshit case against MSG, claiming that he's scum because he hadn't posted yet that day, when it was clear that he wasn't around after the night at all, since he wasn't posting anywhere on the site at all.

That case on MSG was based on the erroneous comment that "he replied to his prod overnight, asking to not be replaced". As soon as that was cleared up, I unvoted MSG.

Even with that post, your attack on him was bullshit. Just because he received a prod during the night does not mean that he is definitely around and just avoiding the thread once Day arrives.

Tarhalindur makes good points for Num7 being scum, not really adding his own contribution, another mark of scum using questions and lurker hunting to cover up lack of contribution.

I suppose my "lurker hunt" and the opinions expressed after my re-read don't count as my own contribution, because you disagree with them.

Lurker hunting is a tool for scum to push lynches on townies and seem useful at the same time. There's a bit more to it, of course, but that's the basic idea.

Num7 continues to push suspicion solely against MSG and Dylan, cop-out behavior ignoring the scummy behavior of other players.

I wanted a dylan replacement, never a dylan lynch. I did want a wagon on MSG, because I think responding to a prod without posting in the thread is really scummy.

He could not have posted in the thread when he received the prod, because it was issued at NIGHT. Can't you get that through your head?

By his own admission lately, the arguments against Adel gained more weight after MoS came up protown and her posts at the beginning of D2 were made, yet Num7 isn't attacking her at all. He has resumed his complete avoidance of Adel regarding any useful topics, something that MoS picked up on D1.

Adel was one of my top-3 suspects at deadline on D1, and on D2 I was distracted by the MSG incident. I was one of the first to mention her strange behavior at the beginning of D2, but I was doing a re-read and I wanted to finish before I came down against anyone. I found ABR more scummy than Adel, so I voted him. Of course this could be interpereted as scum interaction, but I fail to see what gave you that impression.

On D1, you did not even suspect her a little bit until after MoS built up a wagon and a lot of suspicion against Adel, and you never supported the wagon enough to actually push it closer to lynch. You just got on record that you "suspected" her, without actually pushing against her. You put her low enough on your suspicions that you had an alibi without having to help lynch her.

Funny that Num7 tries to say that MoS was wrong about a bunch of people being scum, even though he only barely voted for CKD, preferring a lot of other people first but wanting to get a lynch before deadline. MoS has yet to be proven wrong about the suspicions he had before he died.

So MoS hopped onto the wagon of someone he wasn't suspicious of?

Seems like it. Given his comments surrounding the CKD vote and insisting that he'd rather lynch Adel, it's logical to assume that MoS didn't really want to lynch CKD.

Funny how Num7's suspicion list suddenly dropped Dylan entirely, even though he was attacking him earlier and advocating his lynch under the same circumstances.

I left dylan off my list because there is no way to entertain meaningful speculation on his alignment.

But you were speculating against him earlier, and there weren't any changes on his end. He has been lurking a posting meaningless content for most of the game. Why the change of heart?

As far as the rest of your case, much of it has merit. You can build a good case against a scummy player when you put your mind to it. I am very interested to hear what Adel has to say for herself.

I can build a good case against scum when I find them. Sometimes. Obviously it wasn't good enough, because Adel got away with surviving D1.

BTW

MoS rather obviously had forgotten his role during D1

What do you mean?

As in, MoS was not playing like a cop. Looking at MoS's past games, you can tell that he never would have been that aggressive if he was a cop. Because Adel didn't understand MoS's playstyle, she thought he was a cop, and killed him. It seems to be mere coincidence that he actually was a cop.

[Mastermind of Sin]

GODDAMNIT. KATE STOP BEING AN IDIOT. IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT ADEL MADE UP THAT CLAIM TO BULLSHIT THE DOC INTO COUNTERCLAIMING. I WAS GOING TO PUSH A LYNCH ON ADEL EVEN WITH THE CLAIM, AND NOW YOU FELL RIGHT INTO HER TRAP. ADEL JUST GOT BOTH THE COP AND DOC KILLED, WHY ARE PEOPLE BEING IDIOTS?

Crub, pickem, and ABR are now uber-suspects because they fell for a rather obvious fake-claim. Adel is completely bullshitting that she "didn't believe MoS was the cop". If she didn't believe MoS was the cop, she wouldn't have killed him, because I am 90% sure that she didn't convince the scum he was the cop if she was town. Adel believed MoS was the cop, and if she was really the doc, she would have protected him both for being the cop and believing that he was a benefit to the town (she has claimed that having MoS in the game is good even though he was trying to lynch her). Adel's claim is complete bullshit, and no doctor would ask us to just hammer and then change her mind. She has not acted like a doctor at all, she has only acted like scum at every corner. MoS pegged her day one, and you're all idiots for letting her take out two power roles before she died.

This is fucking ridiculous.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Maz isn't in this game...

[Mastermind of Sin]

What are you talking about?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, I would nominate you for a scummy or something just for manipulating the town through the deaths of two power roles, if it weren't for the fact that I caught you before any of that happened. At least you can never use that bullshit argument that I'm not a Cassandra. If I had such godlike powers that I could lynch you whenever I wanted, you would've died D1 and MoS would've survived as a result.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel's bandwagon was started D1 by MoS. Don't try to take credit for voting obvscum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't worry, ABR. We already know Num7 is scum. I don't trust his words as far as I can throw them, and they're already insubstantial, so that'd be pretty hard.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Num7

It was Num7's relationship with Adel that originally tipped me off to her being scum, and I was right. Num7 reminds me of how I played in Mafia 61 as scum, so there's no way I'm backing off him now.

NabNab, I consider you to be protown. I'm not looking at you as Adel's scumpartner. Although, kudos for being genuine with your thoughtprocess. Town are generally more likely to see themselves as a possible suspect in the eyes of everyone else.

Kate, who did you protect last night?

Num7, I'd start explaining how I wasn't scum with Adel about now, if I were you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would not be surprised at all of Tar and Num7 were the last two scum. Num7's refusal to accept that arguments have been posted against him is just another black mark.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@ Tar: you may not like it when a mafiate says they are scumbuddies with X but it's a valid tactic and can set up mislynches in the town leading to a mafia victory. It may not be the best tactic, or the most admirable one, but it is still a tactic.

I'm potentially willing to vote num but would someone summarise the points against him. As far as I can tell there are some very tenous links, and also the assumption that the mafiates would all be working closely together, which I've hardly ever seen happen.

Actually, that's the opposite of what happened, until they were exposed. MoS first had suspicion of Num7 and noticed that Num7 and Adel were completely ignoring each other, failing to comment on anything of significance about each other and never addressing the other except in passing. This then prompted MoS to look further into Adel's behavior, showing her to be scum. He seems to have felt that Adel was the most likely scum of the two, and now that his conclusion has been proven correct, the natural progression is the lynch the other part of that scumpair. The two of them made a concerted effort to cast suspicion on our cop D1 after he exposed them as scum, while also casting around for other easy targets to lynch, such as CKD.

Adel made sure to stay off of the main scum target, letting Crub (possible third mafia) lead that wagon, and Num7 supported diversion from Adel's bandwagon by jumping in with the CKD wagon.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I suggest we follow the intuition of our dead cop, who already nailed one scum for us.

[Mastermind of Sin]

words ...

:nothelpful:

[Mastermind of Sin]

See I'm confused because there seems to be arguments that adel and num7 were working together, and there are also arguments that they completely ignored each other?

Adel and Num7 worked together *after* they were attacked for completely ignoring each other. They completely changed how they were acting towards each other after it was brought to light. That's just another black mark, as far as I'm concerned.

[Mastermind of Sin]

words ...

:nothelpful:

Because you know scum always vote one after the other on every single wagon that's just how scum roll.

See, saying that is helpful, because you just made an argument. Rolling your eyes is not helpful at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, that's the opposite of what happened, until they were exposed. MoS first had suspicion of Num7 and noticed that Num7 and Adel were completely ignoring each other, failing to comment on anything of significance about each other and never addressing the other except in passing. This then prompted MoS to look further into Adel's behavior, showing her to be scum. He seems to have felt that Adel was the most likely scum of the two, and now that his conclusion has been proven correct, the natural progression is the lynch the other part of that scumpair.

The two of them made a concerted effort to cast suspicion on our cop D1 after he exposed them as scum

, while also casting around for other easy targets to lynch, such as CKD.

I suggest we follow the intuition of our dead cop, who already nailed one scum for us

.

I'm almost down for the Num lynch but!

ITALICS.

I thought you didn't know you were a cop. How the hell would they?
The last line you give yourself godlike powers. All game Adel gave you godlike powers, and you denied them. Now you're practically giving them to yourself.

Whether or not they had picked up actual tells on MoS being the cop, it's clear that they did think he was the cop and acted accordingly. Regardless of being the cop, however, he had been very outspoken and influential on the progress of the game, so they still had reason to be rid of him.

Adel attributed godlike powers of persuasion to MoS, something that he clearly does not have. However, MoS does have a fairly solid track record of actually finding scum. The fact that I cannot persuade others is clearly evidenced by the fact that you are balking at voting Num7 right now.

I don't think I need to tell anyone that I didn't think he was cop, either.

Why would MoS-Cop who thought Adel was scum for the latter half of D1 *not* investigate Adel-scum to confirm her guilt?

MoS-Cop didn't get any investigation results.
MoS-Cop didn't know he was a cop.
MoS isn't MoS-Cop right now. We don't know what MoS is.

What does this have to do with anything? MoS being cop just confirms that we know him to be protown, and therefore we *should* be able to 100% trust what he said on D1. This isn't to say that we should follow blindly, but we now know that the cases MoS made on D1 were completely genuine and coming from a confirmed protown player. Considering that we know that MoS has a track record of not being able to persuade people, AND that he has a track record of finding scum often, we should be able to take that information and trust his cases more than we would if we didn't know his alignment.

This could very well be MoS' attempt at possible bussing.

*hasn't played with MoS*

That post just kinda seemed to cocky/arrogant/ABRlike for me to not comment on it.

I get arrogant from time to time. It's a good change of pace.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS *was* right about Adel being scum, and his case for her was based on the connection that he saw between her and Num7, so what reason do we have to distrust the proven arguments of a dead protown person? I fail to see the problem here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kate, who did you protect last night?

If there is a roleblocker, they should claim today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

I want Kate's answer first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is everyone speculating on what happened? Kate could very well have been scum, although not likely, but there is no reason to give her excuses to use until we've heard from her ourselves.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Still waiting for an actual case on me that I can defend myself against. If there has been one in the past, I must have missed it: a post number would be appreciated.

Post 1417 would be a good place to start.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If you don't believe anything you said is what happened, then there isn't really a reasonable explanation. You listed off any and all reasonable explanations, plus a few that were out there.