Mini 500 - Cult Mafia - Game Over!
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Why is everyone voting Flameaxe? I'm with Theopor that it's odd that I was mentioned for having not posted (I didn't know the game had started and I was watching for it in Theme Park), but everyone else is ignored. I know for a fact that Theopor was posting, because he and I just finished a game together where he was nightkilled right before the game ended.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Everything you say can be turned against you. I still believe that, and I've been here longer than anyone in this game, afaik. You just have to choose your words carefully, although less so as town than scum. Even so, a lot of things I do in my playstyle are results of changes I've made to keep people from using retarded arguments to attack me for stuff that doesn't mean anything.Permanent V/LA.-
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nope, you didn't miss anything. Of course there's only 8 people in a 12-person game! Everyone knows that. No worries.Oman wrote:CKD looks town/cult to me. I like most if not all of his responses and questions.
My town-looking list includes: Pwayne and CKD for now (I feel like I've forgotten someone).
Scum-looking list includes: Flameaxe and Theo
Cult-looking list includes: CKD and tyhess (of course, it can only be one).
Any objections?Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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theopor has seemed genuine to me so far, and his posting has been full of content. Besides accusations of lurking early on, he has been contributing since then.
Flameaxe also seems genuine. He's smart enough to not mess up this early as town, and I think that a lot of his "vote-hopping" was just randomness. When he did extra "vote-hopping", it was because he was done being random and wanted to make a serious vote that just happened to not be on the person he was voting before. In addition, I don't think there is anything inherently scummy about vote-hopping, as long as you have a reason that you can give to back up your votes.Permanent V/LA.-
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Not really WIFOM, Oman. Coming from him, yes, it might be WIFOM. However, there is no incentive to make huge moves as scum early in D1, because it only gets people to suspect you, and it ultimately reduces your chances of living to endgame, because they'll always remember how scummy you were on D1, if nothing else.Permanent V/LA.-
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Actually, there is not much incentive for townies to do anything other than what they feel like doing. They don't have a reason to control and edit what they say, because they are protown. They don't need to reword their posts to put the best light on it, and they don't need to watch what they say to avoid stepping on toes. Protown players have a lot more freedom to do things that could be considered "scummy", because they know ultimately that they *are* protown. I almost never try to avoid being scummy by sacrificing saying my opinion.Permanent V/LA.-
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When I'm scum, I attempt to make it look like I'm playing the same way I always do, but I also tend to edit my posts and look them over to see if I've said something that will draw undue attention to myself. I don't ever like getting attacked for random crap that doesn't actually mean much as a scumtell, but I hate it even more as scum, because in that case, they lynch me for a crap reason and actually get it right on accident.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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So, your theory is that I'm scum and They're possibly scum and I'm taking a "developed stance" on them why? I'm not sure what the point of your accusation is. You don't have to be sure of our alignment, but your statements suggest a theory. I want to know the specifics of that theory.Oman wrote:Sorry Plan was probably the wrong word to use. Perhaps "developed stance".
I think they're both scummy, and you're scummy for ignoring that they are or at the very least ignoring why.MoS wrote:Does this mean they're town and I'm scum, and you think I'm playing them, trying to gain their trust?
Actually I don't feel he should have joined the wagons. My point was more that he didn't and his reasons were unsatisfactory. I don't mind people not joining a wagon saying "theres enough on them" or "my gut says no" but the fact that he tried to put some "factual" (in the context of the game) reasoning behind it makes me uncomfortable.Vollkan wrote:Oman is basically saying that you should have joined the wagons unless you can articulate a good reason why not to, and he thinks you are scummy for that.Permanent V/LA.-
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I didn't read any cases on them. I wasn't going to be influenced in my opinions when asked to say what I think of them, because it's all too easy to just paraphrase the case and make yourself look good without really trying to say what you think. I only read their posts in isolation before saying how I felt about them.Oman wrote:
He finds them both to be "genuine" which I read as "town". Thats fairly deveolped.Vollkan wrote:And what is a "developed stance"?
Because town have no reason to discount reasons like that. I can't see a townie saying "well yeah, but I'll ignore your reasons and just comment on the ones I want to"Vollkan wrote:MoS has ignored the actual reasons for the suspicions, but why does that make him scummy?
Read what I said, I don't mind if he doesn't wagon. What didn't sit well was him implying he had reasons to beleive theo and flameaxe were both town, even though he ignored the case on them.Vollkan wrote:He had no obligation to wagon, but you are going to suspect him if he doesn't give good reasons not to?Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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The answer to that is easy. Just because it's not the answer you expect doesn't mean it's not true. Town-MoS would obviously just want to tell the truth, and that would be the motivation for saying what he did.Oman wrote:The reason I suspect him originally began with his small half-post about theo and flameaxe. Then his defence contained very little about the actual case on them.
I'm not sure what the motives are in that, I'm not sure why either type of MoS (protown, scum, neutral, cult) would have done it, but it didn't sit well with me as a protown action.Permanent V/LA.-
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I'm not arguing semantics. You missed that.pwayne66 wrote:Talk about brains hurting, I'm not even sure I follow what is going on anymore
It seems that:
1) MoS posts defending FlameAxe and Theo
2) Oman calls him out for it
3) MoS and Vollkan beat the hell out of him over semantical issues.
4) Lost in the dust is any answers from MoS on how he reconciles Flameaxes' actions against the Doc. Lost is his answers about how posting content clears Theo.
5) MoS doesn't bother reading other's viewpoints as they might influence him
6) This is AOK with Volkan.
Am I missing something?Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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So, you don't like having proof that someone has slipped up in their scum playstyle and lynching them as scum? Why would you not support a metagame that kills scum? This seems odd to me. It's one of the few metagames that actually works on a majority of players. It is illogical to not support it.Oman wrote:NO! I never do that. I can't stand that metagame strategy and I will not take part in it.Permanent V/LA.-
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Because there is a difference. I have said they seem protown to me. That's it. All I said is that I read through and they seemed genuine to me. It's not like I'm saying they haven't done anything that can be seen as scummy. However, I believe that what they have done was what they believe to be in the interests of the town finding scum, as opposed to some devious scum plan.
Oman, on the other hand, has called ME scum. Not scummy, scum. Voting someone is not a mark of "scummy". You vote someone because you believe they are the most likely scum out of everyone living in the game. That is a much stronger position than what I took for Theo and Flameaxe, so of course I'm going to question him on it. It's not like I've ignored the questions he asked about what I said. I answered him, even if he didn't like the answers. I feel that I am at the very least entitled to ask questions of him, because he'strying to get me killed. There is a big difference between that and me saying that I'm not willing to vote someone at the moment. I don't care if he doesn't like what I said about those two, honestly. I'm not "admonishing" him for it, as you said. He can think what he likes, but if he tries to kill someone I know is protown, I'm going to do something about it, obviously.Permanent V/LA.-
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Please tell me where I said it was any of those things. My point is, you can't call me scum for doing something I always do. You can't call me town either, but the fact remains that it is a complete null tell.White wrote:
Just because you do it a lot doesn't make it right, smart or helpful. Give a real defence next time please.MoS wrote:pwayne, if you do some research, I always random vote when I enter a game. I've done it on later pages than page 4 before.
Now as far as this particular schtick goes, it *IS* helpful, and it *IS* smart. But that isn't really pertinent, so I won't waste your time going into a long argument over it.Permanent V/LA.-
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White, my first post in the game *was* the dice roll, so of course there wasn't much posting from me in the first four pages. I had to get prodded to know the game had started.
I'm not going to argue with you about the vote. I said I wasn't going to argue with it, and I'm going to restrain myself from doing so, because it's obviously an exercise in futility. Nothing will be gained by arguing opening post game theory strategies.Permanent V/LA.-
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Hypocrit. Don't attack me for "how I play" and then turn around and expect to be able to defend yourself with it.White wrote:
It's how I play, suck it up and get used to it. Some people around here would call it agressive.Pwayne wrote:True. Maybe he could refrain from accusing people of whining and having crap ideas until then.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Where was I uberdefensive over 1 vote? I thought you actually had an argument there, but I was thinking of the wrong game. There's another game in little italy where I got pissed off at someone over stupid shit. That wasn't this game. If you think how I've acted in this game is overreacting, you've got an education coming.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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The mod prodded me to let me know the game had started. Didn't people call for me to be prodded or something? I can't really remember the first few pages anymore.Trojan Horse wrote:Mastermind of Sin:So far, seems to have been playing exactly as per form, except for the fact that he didn't jump in until some time had passed. Unusual for a veteran like him, but perhaps he just forgot about this game.Permanent V/LA.-
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On top of that, I'm still waiting for anyone to show that my response was overreactingvollkan wrote:My scumdar:
Mastermind of Sin:Lurker and then just posted theory stuff. Things seem to have sparked off with #209 which was the “Theo and Flame seem genuine” post. Evidently, people think he has been overly-defensive, though I am a little unsure as to whether I would react differently if someone accused me of having a "developed plan". I don't think the suspicion of him is unreasonable or baseless, but I don't feel strongly about MoS yet.at all. As far as I recall, my response at the time was fairly logically based and non-emotional, which is not something that is paired with overreactive and defensive. However, I will state that a response such as that is not the norm for me, but I don't really have a reason for why I acted differently. Normally, my response *would* be one of incredulity, but I guess I decided to see if Oman could back up his accusations or something.Permanent V/LA.-
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Looks like someone else has done their homework as well.
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So, because of this list, he has Theo, myself, and BS on top? I am his second highest suspicion because I rolled a dice for my random vote entry into the game on page 4? I gotta call bullshit on that one.tyhess wrote:Mastermind of Sin:He was the one that had a random vote on Page 4, which I thought was a littles scummish, but that has been explained as just not being there. I still don't like the vote, but I will give him the benefit of doubt (For now)
Oman:No read yet. I know it's late in the game, but I'm still going to wait him out.
ac1983fan:No read (obviously).....needs to post......possibly the cultist and just reading posts???? probably not, but possible
Dr. Blackstrike:I've been keeping my eye on the Doc since his original idea. Someone thought that his quick apology for the idea was good for him, but I think it made it even more suspicious.
curiouskarmadog:Nothing scummish imo yet.
pwayne66:Pro-town, imo
vollkan:Pro-town, imo
Trojan Horse:Interseting player. At times I have thought scum, but don't really have a real read on him yet.
Flameaxe:Same as Trojan Horse
White (r. Rump-Wat):Is posting A LOT. He says aggressive, and I'm starting to actually beelive him. He is doing the exact same thing in the other game I'm in with him. So either he's scum in both games, or that is his play style. For now I'll beleive him.....I think that as much talknig as he's doing has to be pro-town.
theopor_COD:Still my vote. Possibility to change quickly.Vote: Tyhess
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/typoOman wrote:MoS:I still don't like that post about Flameaxe and theo, for the same reasons that he ignores a lot of game content when he posts them. He ignores a question from me in 211 about blackstrike. MoS either doesn't read or is constantly twisting people's words (see: 228)ZOMG NOTE:
SINGULAR! Theo and MoS a team? Or Flameaxe and Mos? (I'm not sure to who he refers). MoS wants me to metagame him (?)MoS wrote:You don't have to be sure of ouralignment
244 Mos likes to WIFOM himself in 3rd person. 248 MoS proves he doesn't read the game by saying I called him scum.
How is this WIFOM? I didn't tell you to take a conclusion from this. There is no motivation for a protown person to lie about things like this. It is not WIFOM to say that someone with protown alignment would be motivated to tell the truth.Mastermind of Sin wrote:
The answer to that is easy. Just because it's not the answer you expect doesn't mean it's not true. Town-MoS would obviously just want to tell the truth, and that would be the motivation for saying what he did.Oman wrote:The reason I suspect him originally began with his small half-post about theo and flameaxe. Then his defence contained very little about the actual case on them.
I'm not sure what the motives are in that, I'm not sure why either type of MoS (protown, scum, neutral, cult) would have done it, but it didn't sit well with me as a protown action.
And you lie again. I have read the game. Shit, had you actually read 248, you would know that I already explained how you called me scum, and you wouldn't have tried to make this argument.
I believe Oman was referring to white's analysis, not white himself. It sounds like Oman was saying that, according to white's conclusions, everyone in the game is either a newb, scum, or neutral. Does that help explain things for y ou?vollkan wrote:
If by "neutral" you mean pro-town, then what is the point of even saying this. You are basically saying "White is newb, scum or town". Ignoring the fact that newb is not an exclusive option, this is pointless.Oman wrote: White I dislike white's analysises. Basically you're either newb, scum, or neutral.
If you don't mean pro-town, then what?Permanent V/LA.-
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QFTtheopor_COD wrote:White - No. I ain't being forced into doing something. Deal with it. I'll post if and when I want too, I'd disagree that I'm being particularly unhelpful - fact is I think everyone's lists are a pile of shit. I've also looked at MoS's post and have no intention of joining his wagon . . . go read a whole host of MoS's games he's scum quite a lot, infact I think I must have played about 4 games with him and he's always scum . . . at this stage I don't find him to be overly scummy.
This post saved your ass, theo. I just went through your posts, and this was the only post where you actually addressed the conversation about me. IT would've looked rather bad if you were all over acfan for not answering questions, but you ignored me doing the same thing. Shame, for a second there I thought I'd drawn out a scum with my antics.
I'd be interested to know if anyone else has avoided talking about me.
Has anyone noticed that almost everyone in the game has found a way to put me in position for them to go after me, even if they haven't actually presented any opinion on me being scum. Even people that were agreeing with me a lot put me at like #3 on their scumlist, giving themselves the option to jump onto my bandwagon if it gets closer to deadline. Theo and Trojan Horse are the only people who have defended me and stuck by it so far.Permanent V/LA.-
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acfan - lurking
CKD - said he expected me to act different if I was scum, but left himself the opening to switch opinions without anything momentous happening first
Dr. Blackstrike - has ignored conversation about me completelyFoS: Dr. Blackstrike
Flameaxe - says I'm not helping much, but doesn't really offer an analysis on me, just reiterates actions I've taken
Oman - attacking me
pwayne - attacking me
theo - defending me
Trojan Horse - defending me
tyhess - attacking me on crappy reasoning over stuff that's not even relevant to the game
vollkan - agreed with me a lot and defended me a bit, somehow managed to put me at his #3 suspicion when he "doesn't feel strongly about MoS"
White - attacking me
I have to say, pwayne absolutely owns White in this post. I didn't notice this before, but it's not only fucking genius, it's a good characterization of White as well.
pwayne66 wrote:
...some say aggressive, some say obnoxious. I can see that there are many things that I am going to have to suck up and get used to though. Among them are: gross mis characterizations, double standards, evasiveness and an over powering sense of self importance.It's how I play, suck it up and get used to it. Some people around here would call it agressive.
I will try my best. I also apologizing for not "getting" your shtick, I just had a hard time believing that anybody wouldchooseto play that way. I assumed that it was a flaw in your personality. I was wrong. Sorry.QFFTPermanent V/LA.-
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No, I'm not really acting like scum. I'm acting like what you *think* is scum, in your limited experience of playing with people who aren't very good at being scum.White wrote:Could it be because you're acting like scum? Evading questions? Being anti town? (please answer these questions)
You're setting yourself up for being lynched and if you turn up town...not too many people will be saddened, some people (myself included) would call you deadweight. You are contributing next to nothing.
Sure I'm evading questions. It's fun, and it draws scum out of the woodwork as the react to it.
Anti-town? Nah. I just operate differently than you do.
Whoever said this was a genius. 'keffed.Suck it up and deal with itPermanent V/LA.-
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See? You already know more than you think you do. If I'm giving scum an easy ride to tomorrow, why not inspect more closely those who are taking said "easy ride"? No sane scum would pass up an opportunity like this, although I would not be surprised if at least one scum was on the fringe or away from it altogether, just so they aren't all connected. However, that's beside the point.White wrote:Ok then, care to elaborate on what you're doing and how it's effective? I also don't see how you drawing suspicion to yourself isn't giving the scum an easy ride to tomorrow...Permanent V/LA.-
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Exactly. If you were scum, and for all I know, you might be, you'd be attacking me. Because scum feel that attacking the obviously scummy person makes them look protown, they are more likely to do it. Scum tend to stay away from attacking newbies that are scummy too much, because it's not protown to bully newbies around when they likely just don't know what they're doing. So, I gave them an IC target, someone they couldn't resist to jump on. And it seems to have worked. Now we just need to evaluate. That's what this whole game is about, isn't it? Look at what people do, who votes who, who defends who, and find scum. So let's do that.White wrote:So you're saying you're deliberately encouraging people to bandwagon you and we're supposed to then sort out who's taking an easy ride and ignore the others? Or are we supposed to look for....?
That sounds like a really bad plan there MoS....heck, even if I were scum i'd be attacking you. Gosh, it's an easy way to look like i'm helping the town by attacking someone that willingly submits themself to it. Dude...that's really....not IC-ish...
Not sure whether you're scum now or not but that's a really bad and unthought out plan....
Are you saying you're giving yourself up for a lynch? Because if not then your plan fails miserably.
WHOA WHOA WHOA. Who said I was vanilla townie? I certainly didn't. I'm not saying I'm anything. Who said I was willing to get lynched, too? That would be retarded. Letting myself get lynched would be giving the scum a free pass to tomorrow, as White was saying. It would take a really bad town to decide to lynch me before looking for the scum. Even if I was scum, it'd be likely that I was being bussed, so every single protown player should be analyzing my wagon instead of just waiting for me to be lynched.tyhess wrote:That doesn't make sense MoS....your portraying yourself as a vanilla townie who wants to get lynched....it seems like someone is following the Doc's advice....and i don't get how if we jumped on you it would look like we were scum.....there would have to be about 4-5 people to lynch you, and theres only 2 mafia +1 cultist.....so who would you want us to lynch then when we would be down to possibly 7 protown vs 2 mafia vs possibly 2 cultists??? doesn't seem protown to me.....and what happens if we got an all out lynch on you (7 people)....then that would mean at the minimum 4 protown players......it wouldn't give us any extra info......
FoS MoS
There aren't 7 people on me, or I'd be dead. There are less people than that, and I'm 99% sure there is at least one, so we've got a good shot. A second one is probably among those sitting on the fence and leaning towards me.
Oman, White, pwayne, tyhess. The four people who have attacked me this game. 1 of them is scum. Oman doesn't seem like the one. He's been fairly genuine in his thoughts and willing to change his mind. Still possibly scum, but the least likely in my eyes. White is overly aggressive and likes to insult people as well, but it's possible that's just a behavioral problem. I'm willing to bet that one of pwayne and tyhess is scum. My money's on tyhess, but pwayne has been playing a pretty conservative game, in the fact that he hasn't really done much to stir people up and get a lot of attention. So much so that he might have an alterior motive for avoiding it. One of Flameaxe, Vollkan, and CKD is scum as well. Let's do some hunting, people!Permanent V/LA.-
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I understand this. I don't have you high on my list of suspicion, but if you were scum, that's what your action says to me. That's not saying you are scum, but the fact that what I said could happen from where you're sitting is still true.curiouskarmadog wrote:
Well, what would you like me to think? You admitted that you were intentional being unhelpful and scummy. My review of you was that I didn’t really buy the arguments against you at a time and I requested what I would like to see from you. Now, you are putting content out there and participating, have I attacked? No…I think you are helping the town. I didn’t attack you before because I thought it was too easy…which made me curious. Which again, I mentioned in my review that if you were scum, I thought you might act different. It was a defense for you of sorts…Mastermind of Sin wrote:CKD - said he expected me to act different if I was scum, but left himself the opening to switch opinions without anything momentous happening first
Not really. I was just trying to point out that my wagon was obviously being supported by some of the scum, since everyone was in place to jump on. I'm not the victim, I purposefully caused this to happen.The only thing you have said recently I didn’t like was this.
Seemed like you were playing a victim. It seemed that if anyone in the futures decides you might be scummy afterall, you can always fall back on this. Do you think that is was just you that “almost everyone” would turn on? The game is ever changing…and opinion will change…I personally think that you are townish now..does that mean 2 pages from now I will? No…if you say or do something I think is scummy, I will call you on it….am I scummy for changing my opinion later?Mastermind of Sin wrote:
Has anyone noticed that almost everyone in the game has found a way to put me in position for them to go after me, even if they haven't actually presented any opinion on me being scum. Even people that were agreeing with me a lot put me at like #3 on their scumlist, giving themselves the option to jump onto my bandwagon if it gets closer to deadline. Theo and Trojan Horse are the only people who have defended me and stuck by it so far.
You really love misrepresenting people, don't you? You're almost as bad as White. It's sad how you guys are calling my strategies stupid when you do shit like this. If you're town, twisting everything someone says so that it says something completely different is *not* going to find you scum. I found that out the hard way.tyhess wrote:Enough is enough MoS. Your saying that your an easy target and that's why scum would be attacking you. I think its more of the fact that you found yourself in a hole, couldn't get out, and now your going to play this card of anybody who votes for you is scum.
First off, I didn't say anyone who votes for me is scum. If I thought that, the game would be over. I would've found all the scum by now. What I said is that scum are likely to jump on easy bandwagons when someone is acting obviously scummy, thereforeoneof the people that voted me is almost certainly scum. That's called logic and deduction, but then you obviously don't know about that.
This paragraph doesn't even make sense. I don't want to be lynched, but it matters to me, and I'm trying to use reverse psychology to no one would vote me, then I call them scum? How could I use reverse psychology in saying that ITyhess wrote:You said that you didn't want to be lynched, but the way your acting to me seems like it does matters to you but your trying to use reverse psychology so that no one would vote for you, and if they do you can yell scum.
Not going to happen
Unvote, Vote:MoS
Still keeping anFOS:theodon'twant to be lynched? Think about what you're saying here. This is like a stream of consciousness post. That makes less sense than BM's usual posts. Please think about what you meant to say and rephrase it.
Looks like pwayne was right. Double standards and mischaracterizations *are* the norm for you. You tell me I shouldn't expect scum to do any classic moves or be stereotypically scummy. Yet, when I act like a stereotypical scum, not answering questions, not actively helping the town, you think I'm scum? Bullshit. Try again, buddy.White wrote:MoS, I find it really hard to believe that's what you've been doing. Setting yourself up as scummy and then expecting everyone to flop away from your bandwagon because you come up with a lame and uncreative excuse is just newbish. This isn't a newbie game, as has been pointed out, so why in the WORLD would you expect the mafia to be classic mass produced stereotypical scum? My vote is staying on you for now but if you could hunt and mount a case (separate from "**** voted me, therefore they are scum") i'll be more willing to take my vote off of you. Hopefully (if you're town) you'll learn from this mistake. Acting scummy when you're town never ever works.
I must've missed where CKD was being a jerk to me...I don't feel any hard feelings toward him at all....?
Especially from me? What the fuck do you know about me? You know nothing me, otherwise you wouldn't think I was scum. Don't come up with bullshit reasons to keep from having to unvote me. "Especially from someone like MoS" my ass.White wrote:I can. Especially from someone like MoS. Not scumhunting is interchangable with allowing scum to live another day. If you're not hunting, you're helping. As for his defending suspected townie? That would be called buddying up to the town. Scummy again.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mod Edit: Quote tags fixed BY REQUEST.
This makes even less sense. You're saying you got lynched for acting like I'm acting? Then you shouldn't think that I'm scum for acting this way. You should know from past experience that it's a bad lynch.White wrote:
Guess what? I also got lynched for bulling this crap. I would've expected much more from you, shame.MoS wrote:You're almost as bad as White. It's sad how you guys are calling my strategies stupid when you do shit like this.
Hmm. So, you think that because I'm acting like newb scum, I'm experienced scum? This makes no sense. Please explain how me acting like a newb makes me an experienced scum. That's a contradiction in and of itself. It sounds like if I was acting more reasonably you'd say I was experienced scum, and if I act less reasonably, I'm acting like newb scum, but I'm still experienced. Not only does this defy logic, you're just fitting the circumstances to the assumption that I'm scum, rather than taking the facts and seeing if they actually make sense.
Scum, used as a plural. Seeing as you're experience but choosing to ignore such knowledge and act like newb scum, yes, I can see you being stereotypical. However I find it hard to believe your partner to be stereotypical other than that they may be on your wagon because of your likelihood of going down the drain.MoS wrote:You tell me I shouldn't expect scum to do any classic moves or be stereotypically scummy. Yet, when I act like a stereotypical scum, not answering questions, not actively helping the town, you think I'm scum?
Actually, it was more like 1 line with 1 swear word. Learn to count, bud. Even if you're scum retardedly religious dude that thinks stuff like "stupid" is a swear word, there were only 3 in 4 lines. However, bullshit is merely an adjective used to describe something that is a ludicrously false statement, but combined into one word. Ass is not a swear word, either. "My ass" is merely an expression of incredulity. There is nothing vulgar about it.Btw, stop putting words in my mouth. I never EVER said don't expect the scum to do anything classic or stereotypical. That's actions. I said don't expect the scum (people) to be mass produced stereotypes. Oh...and nice ever reactions there bud, 4 lines with 4 swear words. Did I hit a nerve?
When I find someone I'm sure is scum, I'll make a case for them to be scum. You don't need me to guide you around like sheep. This statement is a complete contradiction of what you've been saying. Before it's always "he's obvscum", but now you'd be more willing to unvote me if I just attack someone? That makes no sense.
Uh...waiting...White wrote:My vote is staying on you for now but if you could hunt and mount a case (separate from "**** voted me, therefore they are scum") i'll be more willing to take my vote off of you.
Whether or not I purposefully acted scummy doesn't really make a difference. If I had acted scummy on accident, you wouldn't have been able to tell the difference, and it wouldn't changed anything. Also, I admit that I played classicly scummy on purpose. I didn't play how scum *should* play, which is what you're implying. No scum that actually knows what they're doing would act like this, but newb scum don't know what they're doing. Therefore, I hoped to trap scum by giving them a target acting like newb scum, hoping that a real newb scum would fall for the trap by not thinking about how an experienced scum would play. The people who aren't attacking me are not clear either. However, I severely doubt that all of our scum smelled a trap, so I have very much narrowed down the field for finding at least one scum. Apply pressure in the right places, and a scum may just pop out at you. You never know until you try.tyhess wrote:
Wait. So you purposefully got us to vote for you, but since some of usMastermind of Sin wrote: I'm not the victim, I purposefully caused this to happen.arevoting for you, then one of us is defiently scum. That makes a lot of sense. Basically what you're saying is that if anyone votes for you they were looking for an easy way out and they are scum. You said youself that you put yourslef in that position, meaning that you admit it is scumlike.
No. You're not supposed to vote for someone who puts themselves in a position to look like scum based on the fact that you've looked into how said person plays as scum and town and have been able to deduce whether or not they would play that way as scum. It has nothing to do with looking scummy. Townies don't need to worry about looking scummy. It's far more important that protown people find scum than not look scummy. At the very least, if all else goes wrong and you die, your word is then trustworthy after your alignment is revealed, even if they can't figure out that they should trust you beforehand. However, that doesn't mean that townies should *want* to die. They should not try to hurt the town in an effort to live, but they should never be willing to be lynched, unless there is some strategical reason it will help the town.So basically we're not suppose to vote for someome who puts them in a position to look like scum based on the fact that they say it'll make us look like scum.....
As I said with Tyhess, I fail to see how me doing this intentionally is relevant at all. If I was accidentally scummy, it wouldn't change what I did, and it wouldn't change who was going to attack me. It's not like all the scum could tell the difference between accidental and on purpose. They're going to act the same regardless, for the most part. There are town on every wagon, but people still look for scum on wagons, yes? There is no reason it can't be done in this instance. It's not like I was so obviously scum that no townie in their right minds would stay off my wagon. This is evidenced by the fact that only 4 people have voted me out of 11 possible. I gave the town a wagon, and there is very, very likely to be one scum found on it.vollkan wrote:
You make a good point.Tyhess wrote: Wait. So you purposefully got us to vote for you, but since some of us are voting for you, then one of us is defiently scum. That makes a lot of sense. Basically what you're saying is that if anyone votes for you they were looking for an easy way out and they are scum. You said youself that you put yourslef in that position, meaning that you admit it is scumlike. So basically we're not suppose to vote for someome who puts them in a position to look like scum based on the fact that they say it'll make us look like scum.....
If MoS is town, then it is quite likely I would say that scum is/are on his wagon. However, the problem is that MoS has been scummy by his own admission, he says intentionally. As such, I don't think the fact that people have wagoned on MoS is evidence of potential scumminess at this point of the game, because we don't know MoS's alignment. I mean, suspecting one of the wagoners might be valid, but it requires an assumption that MoS is pro-town.
See above.
And you're okay with that? A "trap" as MoS has laid it is just as likely to catch town as scum; it is not helpful at all unless MoS's alignment is known and, even then, because it is so reasonable for town to jump on the wagon it really proves nothing.Theo wrote: He hasn't done anything overly scummy in my eyes, call it a defence or whatever but I feel he's pretty laid back and looking more to trap people than attack easy targets.
Trojan Horse wrote:3 days since last post from acfan. 7 days since last post with any substance from acfan. Tick tick.
I eagerly await theo's next post, as he completes his breakdown of all the players. Hope he doesn't think I'm too scummy.Unvote, Vote: Trojan Horse
This feels way off to me. You hope he doesn't think you're "too" scummy? I see no reason to make a post like this. You've made posts like this earlier, asking me if I was going to attack you now, or something like that. You keep acting like you expect to be scummy, you expect to get heat from other players. It's almost as if you expect to be lynched. Other than these remarks, you haven't seemed that scummy, so I don't see any reason a protown player would be worried about their scumminess. You haven't done anything of note for a townie to worry about.Permanent V/LA.-
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Oh really? So you're so helpless that I am the only one who can take any conclusions from other people's actions? This game is not cut-and-dried. I am the only one who knows my alignment, but that shouldn't stop you. You don't lynch someone and *then* try to figure out what info can be gotten from it. You do your analysis first.pwayne66 wrote:Isn't MoS's theory really just one massive OMGUS to everybody that has had the audacity to ask him some simple questions and expect to be acknowledged? Don't answer that MoS. (reverse pyscology? or reverse reverse pyscology? hmmm...)
Point is: MoS is anti-town. MoS is pro-MoS. He claims his tactics are meant to bring scum out into the light, but conveniently he is the only one that can correctly divine the results of his tests. Somehow, only MoS knows how many assumptions the town can safely make when untangling his elaborate WIFOM arguement. MoS is the only person that can say what questions he ought and ought not consider answering and then only he can determine what assumptions should be drawn from his decisions. Sounds like a scum utopia.
You can make as many assumptions as you need to make. You make all the assumptions. Making all the assumptions is better than making no assumptions. Assume I'm scum and work out who my partners might be. People are assuming I'm scum right now, but they aren't even trying to find my partners. I get accused of not being helpful to the town, yet the people attacking me aren't being any more helpful. If you're going to assume I'm scum, you should also assume I'm town and work out who might be scum in the situation. You need to consider all possibilities, and you aren't doing that. No one is.Permanent V/LA.-
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As I said before, it's logic to make all assumptions and see where it leads you. You don't just sit around going "hmm, I don't know whether or not this guy is scum, so I'll just sit here and not think about anyone else besides him until he's dead".pwayne66 wrote:
Thats called logic and deduction? It seems to me that it requires us to do two things: 1) assume that one of the people on your wagon is scum. 2) assume that you are not scum. Where I come from, that's not logic. That's called a leap of faith.MoS in post 432 wrote:What I said is that scum are likely to jump on easy bandwagons when someone is acting obviously scummy, therefore one of the people that voted me is almost certainly scum. That's called logic and deduction, but then you obviously don't know about that.
No. I always like metagaming. The people attacking me are not metagaming me. If there is any metagaming being done to prove that I'm scum, please link me to that game. The only people that have metagamed me have come to the conclusion that I am protown. You would know that if you weren't just making things up.
Aside from the fact that he watchs too much Jerry Springer, we know this about MoS: he likes metagaming unless it is used against him...MoS in post 432 wrote:Especially from me? What the fuck do you know about me? You know nothing me, otherwise you wouldn't think I was scum. Don't come up with bullshit reasons to keep from having to unvote me. "Especially from someone like MoS" my ass.Permanent V/LA.-
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Gut feeling is not a good reason to put a fourth vote on me. You should know better than that.Trojan Horse wrote:RRR.Vote: MoS. This is not about his latest vote on me; I guess I deserved that, after I made my "hope theo doesn't think I'm scum" comment without tacking on a smiley. This is about my gut feelings about him being scum.
I've been sitting around without voting for too long. It's time for me to (at least temporarily) commit.
What was obvious about it? Trojan Horse may have put a non-serious expression to it, but it was not the first time something like that had been said. I felt that some pressure should be applied, because statements like that are just appeals to emotion, and they can subconsciously get people to lean towards not voting the person. Better curbed now than let it continue.Oman wrote:Vote MoSI'm going with Trojan Horse here, that last vote was obviously a joke about theo thinking I'm scum or something and then saying "but thats probably just OMGUS".
I don't know MoS, can we stop this game and get back to the scumhunting.
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Like I have said previously, you don't need to know my alignment to analyze this wagon. This is not a game of absolutes. You can look at all possibilities for my alignment and make conclusions based on what you find out. The wagon on me has very nearly kept everyone from focusing on anyone else in the game, and that's exactly what the scum want. You can't just wait for me to die before looking for scum. When I come up protown, what then? You just wasted an entire day looking at me and no one else. That's what White and Tyhess want us to do, and for all their talk about me not acting in the town's interests, neither are they. It's all double standards when it comes to those two.vollkan wrote:
MoS does kind of have a point here; I myself am among those who were not convinced by the case against him. The early accusations of defensiveness seemed to have no basis of me and then things very quickly jumped to him saying it was intentional.MoS wrote:
As I said with Tyhess, I fail to see how me doing this intentionally is relevant at all. If I was accidentally scummy, it wouldn't change what I did, and it wouldn't change who was going to attack me. It's not like all the scum could tell the difference between accidental and on purpose. They're going to act the same regardless, for the most part. There are town on every wagon, but people still look for scum on wagons, yes? There is no reason it can't be done in this instance. It's not like I was so obviously scum that no townie in their right minds would stay off my wagon. This is evidenced by the fact that only 4 people have voted me out of 11 possible. I gave the town a wagon, and there is very, very likely to be one scum found on it.Vollkan wrote: If MoS is town, then it is quite likely I would say that scum is/are on his wagon. However, the problem is that MoS has been scummy by his own admission, he says intentionally. As such, I don't think the fact that people have wagoned on MoS is evidence of potential scumminess at this point of the game, because we don't know MoS's alignment. I mean, suspecting one of the wagoners might be valid, but it requires an assumption that MoS is pro-town.
The problem is that nothing MoS has said can be seen to have any basis without knowledge of his alignment. Maybe the wagon is informative to MoS, but it says nothing to the rest of us other than that people chose to wagon on someone who was scummy (though I question the scumminess of MoS at least initially).
MoS, you say this was your plan, presumably you have some idea of how to make it actually function to our benefit? It is no good saying we should focus on the wagonners and not you, because that requires a significant assumption on our part.Permanent V/LA.-
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pwayne, the only person being pressured is me. No one else is being required to supply content or be helpful. White and Tyhess are leading a double-pronged attack on me, and doing nothing else. This game isn't about me. There are more than one scum in this game, and we can't win by looking at one person at a time. You wait until I'm dead to pressure someone else, and you've wasted a day. The cult will have recruited someone, the mafia will have killed someone, and you've lost a lot of opinions that you could have used to find scum. For the latter half of this game, the only momentous discussion has been me defending myself against attacks that don't even make sense half the time. This is not helping the game. If you want to talk about helping the game, do some of it yourself.pwayne66 wrote:
This still gets me. It seems that all of the MoS apologists have reduced his actions and the case against him as defensiveness while the case against him is about refusing to cooperate.Vollkan wrote:MoS does kind of have a point here; I myself am among those who were not convinced by the case against him. The early accusations of defensiveness seemed to have no basis of me and then things very quickly jumped to him saying it was intentional.
For me, this bandwagon is and always has been about pressure. If the town is going to win, it is going to be because EVERYBODY posted content and answered questions. Instead we are rewarding and praising some attention starved, John Wayne wannabe by saying "It's ok if you don't want to talk" and "oh jeez, I don't know why everybody is being so mean to you..."
Instead we have a town that pressures a person that IS talking into shutting the fuck up and doesn't want to pressure somebody that's not talking in order to get them to answer a mounting list of questions.
jtfc.Permanent V/LA.-
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You think I'm not contributing? I'm one of the few people that are actually talking about more than one person lately. Nearly everyone that is attacking me has had blinders on for the last few pages. With 3+ people attacking me constantly, I don't really have time for much more than defending myself. Put yourself in my position and see if you would let yourself be lynched while you were off trying to find possible scum. I'm attempting to multitask, but I don't have a lot of breathing room to do it in. The few people that don't buy into my wagon are voices lost in the fog.vollkan wrote:
Key word in what I said wasPwayne wrote: This still gets me. It seems that all of the MoS apologists have reduced his actions and the case against him as defensiveness while the case against him is about refusing to cooperate.
I didn't buy that argument which seemed to be the main thrust of the case at the time.Vollkan wrote: Theearlyaccusations of defensiveness
He has refused to co-operate since then, though now he has merged that with his ridiculous "I'll act scummy to trick people" thing. Maybe he sees that as a contribution, though I don't.
You'd be frustrated too, if people refused to listen to what you said for the last 10 pages or so. Trust me, metagame all you want, you'll find that this reaction is normal for me.
Don't interpret this as me pandering to his inaction; I have been saying all along that we should pressure MoS. That was the very reason I put him at number 3 on that list, if you remember. I hadn't seen anything notably scummy-defensive from him, which other people said they had, but I could see that his behaviour was odd and he definitely needed to contribute more.Pwayne wrote: For me, this bandwagon is and always has been about pressure. If the town is going to win, it is going to be because EVERYBODY posted content and answered questions. Instead we are rewarding and praising some attention starved, John Wayne wannabe by saying "It's ok if you don't want to talk" and "oh jeez, I don't know why everybody is being so mean to you..."
By my count, MoS is at L-1. He shows no signs of making any contribution now that he has placed himself into this "I'll act scummy to attack my wagoners" thing because he sees that as his great contribution. And his posts are definitely beginning to take on a veneer of defensiveness (inc. swearing)
In addition, you yourself have acknowledged that I am not only attacking my wagoners. They are refusing to consider all the options, but I'm watching people who aren't on the wagon as well, as evidenced by your quote of my pressure on Trojan Horse. I'm not the one who is faking contribution, it's the people who are single-mindedly attacking me and doing nothing else.
How am I consciously making no contribution? I have been responding to the majority of attacks against me while looking for scum both on and off my wagon at the same time. What more do you want from me?I see this situation as MoS not being overly suspicious in the sense of not having done anything I would normally characterise as scummy but, simultaneously, he is being consciously making no contribution which is of course anti-town and can be seen as scummy.
I'm damned sure that 1 scum is on my wagon. That leaves two more unaccounted for. I am not going to blindly attack the people on my wagon without looking around for other scum slipping under the radar. That would be ludicrous, and it's what the people attacking me are doing. Apply your standards to them, not me.Oh, something else I noticed:
Trojan was not on your wagon when you voted him (though he is now). If you are so damned sure that scum are on your wagon why did you instead choose to go for the obvious newb?MoS wrote: Unvote, Vote: Trojan Horse
This feels way off to me. You hope he doesn't think you're "too" scummy? I see no reason to make a post like this. You've made posts like this earlier, asking me if I was going to attack you now, or something like that. You keep acting like you expect to be scummy, you expect to get heat from other players. It's almost as if you expect to be lynched. Other than these remarks, you haven't seemed that scummy, so I don't see any reason a protown player would be worried about their scumminess. You haven't done anything of note for a townie to worry about.
Trojan Horse is not an obvious newb. Trojan Horse has been around a while, so if you think that's newbishness you're seeing, you'd better look again. Trojan Horse has, now that I look at it, been around Mafiascumlonger than I have. 3 years does not a newb player make.
And what happens when protown players are either dead or no longer protown after tonight? What then? There will be even more distractions and misinformation being spread around, in proportion to the genuinely protown people left. Better to get people's opinions on possible connections now than to have them be dead or recruited tomorrow.vollkan wrote:Crossed with both of MoS's posts.
MoS, there is value in studying relationships between players, but I don't really see your point. Why should we focus on making these assumptions when we don't know your alignment; any connections we do find are meaningless without that knowledge. Once we have that knowledge we don't have to assume, we can actually reason our way through things.MoS wrote: You can make as many assumptions as you need to make. You make all the assumptions. Making all the assumptions is better than making no assumptions. Assume I'm scum and work out who my partners might be. People are assuming I'm scum right now, but they aren't even trying to find my partners. I get accused of not being helpful to the town, yet the people attacking me aren't being any more helpful. If you're going to assume I'm scum, you should also assume I'm town and work out who might be scum in the situation. You need to consider all possibilities, and you aren't doing that. No one is.
After X's alignment is known, you can go back to your hypothesis and see which one was accurate. You should not wait to do this until after you have lost the opinions of several players in the game. There is no reason to wait, any urging to the contrary is merely an indication of someone that wants to rush through the lynch without considering other options.
As I just said, this doesn't help particularly. The most you can conclude is "If X is town/scum then y is probably town/scum." Afetr X's alignment is known, the first stage of hypothesisng is not needed and the reasoning process if clearer and more conducive.MoS wrote: As I said before, it's logic to make all assumptions and see where it leads you. You don't just sit around going "hmm, I don't know whether or not this guy is scum, so I'll just sit here and not think about anyone else besides him until he's dead".
Having one scummy person to attack is not a justification for tunnel-vision. No protown player should ever assume that they are right about one person being scum and that no other options are possible.vollkan wrote:
Yes, there is value in that sort of analysis, but it cannot be practically used without alignment knowledge. That's the real problem here.MoS wrote: Like I have said previously, you don't need to know my alignment to analyze this wagon. This is not a game of absolutes. You can look at all possibilities for my alignment and make conclusions based on what you find out. The wagon on me has very nearly kept everyone from focusing on anyone else in the game, and that's exactly what the scum want. You can't just wait for me to die before looking for scum. When I come up protown, what then? You just wasted an entire day looking at me and no one else. That's what White and Tyhess want us to do, and for all their talk about me not acting in the town's interests, neither are they. It's all double standards when it comes to those two.
ie. Trojan's and Oman's votes do look opportunistic and I can see what you are saying about White and Tyhess being somewhat tunnel-visioned. However, because you have been scummy, I can also see how they may be justified in suspecting you and, as such, I don't think them to be wholly unreasonable.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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If I am not defending myself, then why do I have 20+ responses to accusations made against me? I am answering as many of the points brought up against me as I can. Feel free to reiterate anything that I need to respond to.pwayne66 wrote:
This is why I am seriously getting pissed. We have spent all day looking at you and all you have to do to change that is extend the same courtesy to us as we have to you: answer the questions posed to you. YOU have made yourself the number one suspect. YOU brag about this fact. YOU are the one that is forcing us to waste all of our day one resources trying to get questions answered from nearly four pages ago. YOU are not defending yourself. YOU are not answering questions. And YOU have done so intentionally.MoS wrote: This game isn't about me. There are more than one scum in this game, and we can't win by looking at one person at a time. You wait until I'm dead to pressure someone else, and you've wasted a day. The cult will have recruited someone, the mafia will have killed someone, and you've lost a lot of opinions that you could have used to find scum. For the latter half of this game, the only momentous discussion has been me defending myself against attacks that don't even make sense half the time. This is not helping the game. If you want to talk about helping the game, do some of it yourself.
If you don't understand the case against you then you are being deliberately obtuse. YOU made the case against you, remember? You have reminded us several times that you created this situation but now you want us to believe that you don't understand it? Which is it: You created this to capture scum, or scum created this to capture you. I won't hold my breath for the answer.[/quote]
I created a situation to pull in scum. That is a fact. The difference is, no one except me is willing to even consider this possibility and look for scum. Everyone wants to sit around and wait for me to die before considering any other options. That's not a protown strategy.
Where did I say I didn't understand the situation? I understand the situation. What I don't understand is how people can be so stubbornly single-minded about something that they couldn't possibly know to be true yet.Permanent V/LA.-
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This may indeed result in my own death, but not before we've looked at other people. At the very least, my pointing out who is probably scum will let you know who to look at the most, because when I come up protown you'll be able to trust everything I have said.
May I also point out that not a single person has asked me to claim yet, which shows that theyintend to railroad me to death without getting a claim first. This isNOTprotown.Permanent V/LA.-
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Also,Unvote, Vote: Tyhess
He still has things to answer for. He has been deliberately ignoring some of the things I have been saying, including a few specific questions that I have asked him. For all his attacking me for not answer question, he certainly is doing a good job of not being useful himse.fPermanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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This is true. However, you aren't even voting me at the moment, are you? My votes are White, Tyhess, Trojan, and Oman, and none of them have even said anything about a claim. White and Tyhess in particular have been so certain that I am scum, yet neither of them took the obvious step to ask for a claim. This does not bode well for them being protown.
I also need to take a look at Oman's posts. I would recommend that other people do so as well. From what I can recall, he's done a lot of jumping off and on my wagon on a whim, but I need to double-check this. If someone could corroborate this for me, that'd be appreciated.Permanent V/LA.-
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Of course. I'm just saying, I don't really fault you for not asking for one yet. The people who were voting me don't have that excuse. Trojan Horse and Oman put me at -1 with barely a reason mentioned, and they didn't even ask for a claim. pwayne, Tyhess, and White have been on me for a long time and didn't say anything about a claim, even after I was at -1. All of that seems suspect. The fact that you haven't yet asked for a claim isn't suspicious. I could make other arguments for you being suspicious, but that's not one of them.Permanent V/LA.-
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See, I disagree with your game theory, Trojan Horse.
First off, if I claimed townie or whatever, I wouldn't be an easy recruit for the cult. They could recruit me at night, but I'm under so much suspicion that I'm not likely to live for long even if I make it through today.
Secondly I, as a power role that might claim eventually, am not even sure if I wouldn't just claim townie. That's something I have debated back and forth. If I claim townie and live the cult might try to recruit me and fail. However if I claim townie we're left with my first point which is that I would be a bad recruit for the cult in the first place. If I claimed townie I wouldn't be a target for the mafia to kill therefore allowing me to keep my role alive and put it to good use.
Hmm, might've been 5. I was just going off what Vollkan said. L-2 is still more than enough to be asking for a claim, especially with Vollkan suspicious of me as well.Permanent V/LA.-
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