Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[Setael]

Howdy. I'm reading the thread and will post once I'm caught up.

[Setael]

I finally finished reading the thread, and now my head is killing me. I found it laughable that vollkan criticized players for agreeing with his arguments instead of coming up with their own, when he was covering anything half-way evident so thoroughly time and time again that it seemed there was nothing for anyone else to do but agree (or disagree) or grasp at straws.

So… I think I will just say that I can see why Para is on the chopping block. He has done several things that have made him look scummy. Wanting to lynch inactives when there is a high likelihood they are Town, and being so hard core anti replacements doesn’t seem the best way to keep the town in the majority. Plus it really hurt my feelings. The one that stood out the most to me was in post 362 when he quoted CKD asking “who is definately town?” (sic) and then used this to build a case against him, without referencing it. When pressed as to why he pulled one sentence out of context he says:

I didn't know the context, I only read it in passing like I said.

Now, way back at the beginning you may remember that we were told by the mod:

Paradoxombie replaces ojpower as of now. This guy's pretty old school, too. He was in one of my first games on this site, so I ask you all to treat him with respect and distinction.

I can see a newbie player doing this maybe, but I find it hard to believe that an “old school” player didn’t at LEAST read the post directly before the one he pulled the quote from, to find out whether CKD was asking something of the person who just posted, or a general question of all of us. To boot, a few posts back he tried to explain away his miscount saying it happens all the time. Maybe. But to someone who deserves such respect and distinction… I have my doubts.

That being said, I’m not willing to vote and put him to L-1 right now because I don’t think SPAG and gorckat should be let off the hook so easily. Though it is possible that SPAG really does just want to re-read and cast a more thoughtful vote, and gorckat did just want to give me a chance to post, it is also possible that one of them is Para’s scum partner. I think I’d like to wait and see if either of them really will vote for him. If the deadline gets closer and they’re still stalling, I’ll vote for him so that we don’t lose the day lynch.

[Setael]

At 8:39 am:

I would like to hear from PX himself before i place a vote.

Less than an hour later, WITHOUT waiting for Para to say anything, SPAG hammers.

Why didn't you wait to hear from him? There was plenty of time until deadline. Under the circumstances, any Townie would’ve waited to hear from Para. Let me guess… you’re going to say it was because I suspected you for removing your vote. Unfortunately for you, everyone here recognized that as perfectly reasonable suspicion. Vollkan agreed that it was a good strategy to wait to see what those who'd removed their votes would do, and you now know that he was a mason.

The ONLY thing that changed between your expression of desire to wait for Para and your hammer was that Vollkan said he thought you had shown a reasonable level of caution. As such, you hammered safe in the knowledge that Vollkan (a confirmed mason) believed you had shown reasonable caution to that point; coupled with Vollkan's apparent belief that the time was ripe for a lynch.

Let me stress this: You hammered despite declaring that you wouldn't when the only thing that had changed was that Vollkan had posted so as to potentially redeem you. This utterly reeks of someone who pre-empts that they are lynching a townie since it gives you an easy way out.

I think you knew Para would come up town because you’re mafia, so you removed your vote knowing he was going to die with or without your help. Then, when I pointed out that it looked fishy, you jumped on it saying I was pushing you into voting for him. That coupled with vollkan telling you it wouldn’t look suspicious, made you feel safe hammering Para, knowing that you could throw the blame on me when he came up Town. In fact, you said as much:

However, if he turned out town it will particularly show out Setael, who seemed to push me and gorckat into voting for him on suspision that we were protecting a fellow scumbuddy, and those two votes would secure his lynch. Also vollkan and CKD have been dominant in wanting to lynch him.

This sounds an awful lot like someone who knows Para is going to come up Town, and is setting up his arguments for the next day.

vote: SPAG

[Setael]

I think Hermit hit a gold mine with this:

Post 478: SPAG returns, asks for the Cliff's Notes version of the case against Para (but not Elias or me, the other two frontrunners for suspicion at the time perhaps he's already made up his mind?).

I think it's very possible that SPAG ignored the suspicion on you and Elias because at least one of you are mafia. Personally, I don't think it's Hermit - I'm getting a very pro-Town read on him. I do, however, think it's likely that SPAG paid no attention here to the case against Elias because they're scum buddies. The other main reason I think this is Oman's list:
Para
Pulse
Elias

I doubt that he'd name three innocents - much more likely he'd throw in a mafia name. We know Para was Town, and I happen to know Pulse's affiliation which leaves Elias, thrown in as the third one down the list that Oman could pretty safely say he'd like to see lynched. I think I need to reread and look more closely at Elias.

[Setael]

I would support a lynch of either SPAG or Elias. I think they are both scumtastic.

This looked more like an argument Elias thought up when he decided who to NK, and then wanted to beat us to the punch:

Moving on, I expected Vollkan to get killed, being the most obvious protown player, and also since killing him off protrays me in a scummy light. In light of this, I'm going to remind everyone that discussion is our friend. Im going to reread.

[Setael]

Still need to do a re-read, but I find this whole thing scummy, and Elias telling me I'm getting on his nerves is not going to make me drop the argument:

First Elias says this:

Moving on, I expected Vollkan to get killed, being the most obvious protown player, and also since killing him off protrays me in a scummy light. In light of this, I'm going to remind everyone that discussion is our friend. Im going to reread.

Then I say this:

This looked more like an argument Elias thought up when he decided who to NK, and then wanted to beat us to the punch

He responded with:

erm...what? The obvious scum move when making a kill is to take out the most obviously protown player (when there are lack of power roles)...I was simply saying that it makes me look worse because of my interactions with Vollkan. I'm getting really annoyed at how you look at every little post and say "oh he could be doing this as scum", when its equally likely I was trying to make a post with some content before I reread (still in progress). Basically youre WIFOMing the hell out of me, and its getting on my nerves.

Notice how he doesn't really respond to my actual suspicion. I never disagreed that vollkan was very likely going to be the mafia's target last night. What I'm saying is the fact that he brought it up the way he did looked scummy.

Elias said Vollkan was also killed because

killing him off protrays me in a scummy light.

So he's assuming scum killed Vollkan to frame him (Elias)... or at least he's trying to make sure he beats us to making that argument, so that it loses it's umph. But the thing is... like Elias said, it seemed pretty cut and dry that scum would kill vollkan. So pointing out that he thinks scum killed vollkan to frame him just looks scummy to me. Like he's trying to shoot down the argument before it can begin. Like I said, it looks pre-planned. I can just see ScumElias thinking "Well we're killing vollkan, but people might think that makes me look scummy so I better say something about it right away before any of them can."

[Setael]

Like he's trying to shoot down the argument before it can begin.

This is anti town? Wouldnt a townie have the same motivation to shoot down arguments against him that are illogical?

You neglected to mention the clincher - the fact that you were shooting down an argument before it ever began. Sure, Townies are going to shoot down arguments, but imo mafia is more likely to pre-plan defenses to arguments that have not yet been brought up.

[Setael]

MoD can we please get a prod on SPAG?

Prodding SPAG -Mod

[Setael]

Welcome, Yagami! Thanks for replacing.

It will be a miracle if you can convince me that SPAG wasn't scum.

[Setael]

Setael, what have I said that has given you a strong town read? I'm curious how you arrived at this conclusion, because you might have found something about me the others missed but also because it's just as likely your reasoning might be wrong.

My #1 reason is the same reason everyone pulled their votes off you yesterday. Your exasperated attempt to quit/suicide felt Town. I could be wrong, but it didn't feel like a scum dramatization at all. If it was, bonus points for you. My other main reasoning is I think the 2 scum left are SPAG and Elias. I could be wrong about one of them or both, but I'm feeling strongly about both of them, which would make you Town.

[Setael]

The first is where he asks Elias if we should kill vollkan, making it sound like Elias's suggestion.

Can you please provide a reference for this?


Yagami's posts so far have fit quite nicely in with my theory that he and Elias are the scums. The latest defense of Elias was laced with just enough distancing, with a nice healthy noncommital "neither town nor scum" decision on him.

Despite these, right now he's neither town nor scum imo, still right in the center.

I'm definitely still feeling warm and snuggly about my vote on SPAG/Yagami.

[Setael]

Personally, I'm more interested in your thoughts on myself and Shanba.

[Setael]

I can potentially see gorckat being scum with Yagami instead of Elias, but either way I still think Yagami is scum. I don't envy him replacing into this role, and don't blame him for saying he almost wants to vote SPAG himself. I just don't see anything that's going to change my mind about that role. I need to do a re-read to decide who SPAG's partner was... but I definitely still think Yagami is one of our scums, so my vote stays on him.

[Setael]

3) Yagami = scum, TheHermit = town
He sees the writing on the wall and knows he's going to die today, so he "defends" a town that everyone is already suspicious of to plant the scumteam idea in their heads. Yagami still dies today, but since he's given the town another good reason to lynch someone they already don't like tomorrow he doesn't go down alone.

Interesting theory that Yagami thinks his lynch is inevitable, so everything he is saying now is in behalf of his scum partner. Makes my head swim with WIFOM. Not sure I buy it, though, since Yagami's cause is hardly lost. There's still plenty of wiggle room and if anyone can find it, I'm sure it's Yag. I'm curious to see what he has to say about my play.

[Setael]

I agree with Shanba. After Yagami's input, I still think he is mafia.

Yagami, I am officially requesting that you claim. No one hammer until he's had a chance to do so.

[Setael]

Who are you directing that question to, Hermit?

And... can everyone not voting for Yagami please explain the reasons they think he is Town.

[Setael]

I think if Yagami was Town he would be fighting harder to not get lynched, rather than sitting silent at -1 and waiting for someone to hammer.

[Setael]

I did a re-read in light of the fact that SPAG came up scum.

Post 99 – Hermit would’ve been more careful than that if he was scum
Post 102 – Oman wouldn’t say that if Hermit was scum
Post 128, 132 – Elias scummy; 216, 220 – Elias Townish

Nelly wagon - gorckat, nelly632, Elias the thief, Oman, Paradoxombie

*likely 2 scum on it – Oman and either Elias or gorckat

223, 231, 232, 236, 293, 302, 303, 308 – Elias scummy
225 – hermit townish
236, 242, 256, 289, 436 – gorckat townish

*These last 2 posts could either be gorckat pointing out a scumtell elias made, or gorckatscum taking advantage of the heat vollkan is putting on elias at this point and trying to get a wagon going

244 – gorckat scummy

I still think Oman’s list is key.

Yes, it screws you

[Elias]

if you are town; but you are ignoring the fact that Oman favoured keeping you (and Para) alive. Oman could very easily have rejected my "plan" and then criticised me for making such a ridiculous suggestion. Instead, he approved it. There was no advantage in Oman approving the plan if Elias, Para and Pulse are all pro-town. Indeed, in such a case there was only disadvantage insofar as he would look scummy for supporting it. The only means by which supporting the plan would be desirable would be in keeping his scum buddies alive. Otherwise, he would be doing something ridiculously scummy when it offered him no advantages and substantial disadvantages and opportunity costs (the opportunity being the chance to criticise me).

I very much agree with this entire post, and if it is true then Elias is scum.

Oman brings Pulse into it (I never mentioned Pulse, nor did anyone else) and says Pulse looks more pro-town than Elias (implying strongly that he favoured Pulse's vigging). It would be very odd for Oman to do this if both Pulse and Elias are pro-town or if Pulse is scum and Elias is torn. This only makes sense if Oman is trying to protect Elias.

Again, I have no idea why he would say that. All I know is that I am town and he was scum. I dont know what else to say about this particular piece of evidence.

I think he knew there was no way to explain his way out of that. Sounds like scum trying to get the subject dropped. I really don't think oman would've given 3 Townie names on his list. I think he gave 2 town names (me and Para) and one scum - Elias, last on the list. If Elias is scum, it definitely makes sense that he'd much rather have seen Pulse (now me) vigged than Elias.

Well great. Nelly is now voting for me. If you guys do decide to lynch me, tell me before hammering so that I may claim and give my final suspicions, and a final defense.

**Elias says this with only 2 votes. Seems extreme.

SPAG: All his posts have given me a town feel, though no one post stands out. Official Opinion: Town

One scum is down - he's not going to want to bus. Makes sense if Elias is scum for him to not draw any attention to SPAG.

Elias was very active Day 1, posting a lot when suspected – if he had continued it could be seen as townie, but he’s so much more quiet when not under the microscope that it looks scummy. I think townies would remain consistently active and helpful (or unhelpful) but not be such opposite extremes as Elias has been.

Also, after vollkan day-vigged Oman, Elias had downplayed how much he had pushed that vollkan might be scum – para calls him on it in post 308.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say here, is will you people lay off me? I've been responding to your attacks all day, I'm probably the second biggest poster and contributor to the town, and I've posted my thoughts on every single player, something no one else has done. I assure you that if you lynch me I will turn up protown.

*sounds like scum trying to wriggle out of the spotlight

Then in Post 427 when Para made something which seemed to be a pretty obvious scum tell, Elias' only response on it was "I dont think its too strong a tell." This is much more likely to be said by scum who knows Para is Town rather than by Town who is unsure.

Gorckat’s post 608 re: Elias makes perfect sense.

This really isnt fair. I dont really understand what the case against him [Yagami/SPAG] is, but I dont think that he's town. I've already presented strong cases against Hermit in the past, and I dont see why you expect me to vote for yagami, and i dont see why you act as if its wierd when i dont.

I don't see how Elias could've really not understood the case on SPAG/Yagami. I think he was hoping to distract from the Yagami wagon and push attention back to Hermit. Elias has mentioned several times how good he is as scum and his perfect record. If he is scum, it's going to be tough to pin him down and I could be wrong, but I really think Elias is the other scum.

vote: Elias

[Setael]

This really isnt fair. I dont really understand what the case against him [Yagami/SPAG] is, but I dont think that he's town. I've already presented strong cases against Hermit in the past, and I dont see why you expect me to vote for yagami, and i dont see why you act as if its wierd when i dont.

I don't see how Elias could've really not understood the case on SPAG/Yagami.

Because no one ever really represented the case besides saying "OMG HES LURKING OMG LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH" as far as I saw.

So... did you miss THIS post?

At 8:39 am:
SPAG wrote:
I would like to hear from PX himself before i place a vote.


Less than an hour later, WITHOUT waiting for Para to say anything, SPAG hammers.

Why didn't you wait to hear from him? There was plenty of time until deadline. Under the circumstances, any Townie would’ve waited to hear from Para. Let me guess… you’re going to say it was because I suspected you for removing your vote. Unfortunately for you, everyone here recognized that as perfectly reasonable suspicion. Vollkan agreed that it was a good strategy to wait to see what those who'd removed their votes would do, and you now know that he was a mason.

The ONLY thing that changed between your expression of desire to wait for Para and your hammer was that Vollkan said he thought you had shown a reasonable level of caution. As such, you hammered safe in the knowledge that Vollkan (a confirmed mason) believed you had shown reasonable caution to that point; coupled with Vollkan's apparent belief that the time was ripe for a lynch.

Let me stress this: You hammered despite declaring that you wouldn't when the only thing that had changed was that Vollkan had posted so as to potentially redeem you. This utterly reeks of someone who pre-empts that they are lynching a townie since it gives you an easy way out.

I think you knew Para would come up town because you’re mafia, so you removed your vote knowing he was going to die with or without your help. Then, when I pointed out that it looked fishy, you jumped on it saying I was pushing you into voting for him. That coupled with vollkan telling you it wouldn’t look suspicious, made you feel safe hammering Para, knowing that you could throw the blame on me when he came up Town. In fact, you said as much:
Quote:
However, if he turned out town it will particularly show out Setael, who seemed to push me and gorckat into voting for him on suspision that we were protecting a fellow scumbuddy, and those two votes would secure his lynch. Also vollkan and CKD have been dominant in wanting to lynch him.


This sounds an awful lot like someone who knows Para is going to come up Town, and is setting up his arguments for the next day.

vote: SPAG

Why did you never address that post or refer to it at all? Did you just decide to ignore it? Or did you think it was a bad case? Can you show me where you ever acknowledged this post? It seems to me that you totally avoided addressing SPAG's scummy play, and even now you're downplaying the case on him. I think you were hoping you could get the vote moved off of SPAG and onto Hermit so you tried to trivialize the SPAG case and didn't bother to address it. I can't see any reason for you to have disregarded how scummy SPAG had been if you were Town. The only way it makes sense is if you are SPAG's scumbuddy.

By the way, calm down and watch your language. This is, after all, still just a game.

[Setael]

This is an open setup. There are 3x mafia, 3x masons that win with the town, and 1x day-vig that can be a mafia, mason or townie.

There's only one mafia left, Shanba.

[Setael]

So in conclusion, yes, I missed that post. Although from what I can tell, all it was doing was saying "SPAG hammered early" over and over again, with various opinion-as-facts thrown in. I already was aware of SPAGs hammer. The evidence against Hermit was (and still is) greater then there was against SPAG. In my opinion, we caught scum out of luck on his lynch, not skill.

So you say you missed that post, but you continue to downplay the case on him. Basically you're implying that had you seen that post, it would not have changed your opinion and you still would've thought SPAG was Town. If you're that bad at scum hunting, why should anyone listen to your arguments about Hermit? You refuse to admit, even now that SPAG came up scum, that we had a good case on him. I don't believe that you were ignorant of the SPAG case. I believe you tried to downplay it just like you're doing now. Yes, that's my opinion. I know it drives you crazy when we state our opinions, but a lot of the "evidence" we have in this game is our personal reaction to what others say and how they react.

And EVERY *** DAY I get out of it by pointing out that all your arguments are BS.

I disagree. This is what you want people to believe, but what actually seems to happen is every day you get out of it by providing a well-constructed defense. This does not mean you are Town, or that you have proved that the arguments brought against you are BS. All it means is you are good at defending yourself, whether you are scum or Town.

In fact, remember those posts that I listed that you asked me to quote? They were other people's suspicions of you that I found convincing, and that you never adequately refuted. I'm sure you felt that you shot them down and they should never be brought up again, but that doesn't mean your defense was convincing to a third party. I'll list them here for you. As far as I'm concerned, every one of these cases against you still stand.

Furthermore, Oman APPROVED of my "plan" to vig pulse and then to lynch Para (the latter of which he may well have thought avoidable). The other important detail to this plan, which I have not revealed until now, is the person who was NOT mentioned: You, Elias.

We know that Oman was scum. We can see Oman trying to protect you. At that point, Oman was NOT under threat. Hence, he had no reason to assume his role would be revealed.

By jumping on Hermit, i would have done nothing. There would essentially be no pressure on him, and if you [Nelly] turned up scum and I had in the heat of your wagon voted for him instead, it would have appeared that I was simply distracting from your wagon purposefully.

Sorry if I'm requoting the exact same thing from earlier (I think its just an excerpt of the earlier quote- its been on the clipboard awhile before I finally sat down to break it down)

If Nelly came up scum and you were seen voting Hermit, you'd be looked at as distracting the Nelly wagon. That's what I saw as being afraid of distancing, although distracting is the word you used.

The basic point I tried to make is the same- if you are acting in a manner you believe pro-town, why are you afraid of being called anti-town? By saying a townie should avoid scum tells, you imply they should the do so even if they are convinced that the wrong wagon is being pushed, if making their vote is a scum tell (a distraction).

Oman voted a random vote in the beginning for OJ (Paradox) then changed it to Ninja and then once again changed it back to OJ (Pardox)... He placed a 4th vote on Paradox and then jumped at your suggestion that we lynch Paradox and VIG Pulse... So now with us knowing that Oman was Scum it wouldnt make sense for him to be so careless with Paradoxombie if they were scum buddies... So I have to believe that both Paradoxombie and Pulse are both Townie. At this point the list of people who voted for me are...

Gorckat
Oman
Paradoxombie
Elias
Nelly632

Lets see... Nelly632 is Town... Oman is dead and proven Scum... So odds are we might be able to find a scum bag on my bandwagon...

Paradoxombie was voted and never defended by Oman and since Oman is scum we assume Paradoxombie is NOT...

Gorckat & Elias...

Gorckat jumps on me before a wagon even exsist and has legitament comments and questions...

Elias votes for me after I have TWO saying he is placing pressure on me and avoiding being looked at as scum...,

My biggest problem with Elias(and I'll admit it's not huge) is that he made such a big deal about the possibility of Volkan being scum and I believe he was first to do it followed by Hermit.
1) You may be giving ideas to scum. Hermit basically laid out the entire plan for the scum when I see no need to, atm. Especially in a game with several fairly new players, it's possible scum would completely miss the opporunity presented in not NKing Volkan.
2) You make it more obvious to scum that we aren't sure that volkan is town. Although volkan IS slightly leading the town, there's no reason to point out the possibility of scumminess unless he survives tonight. Even if scum thought of not NKing Volkan, if we made it look as though the entire town trusts completely that he is town, then he might as well be confirmed; he is also a very proficient scumhunter, imo. Basically, by showing that we don't trust him or at least make it look so, it tells the scum that such a tactic is more likely to suceed.
3) Scum might also fear that even if they let volkan live, the town will ignore the possibility that he is scum, so they put the idea out there now.

In conclusion the most protown and intelligent action would've been to silently consider the possibility of Volkan being scum to yourself, and only bring it up if Volkan or anyone else actually tried to utilize Volkans semi-confirmed townie status to get a lynch on someone else or if Volkan did somthing fairly suspicious. While ckd DID call Volkan confirmed townie, he didn't use it for any purpose such as to get a lynch or protect Volkan, therefore I see it as unreasonable to point out his still-possible-scum status because it benefits scum overall for the reason above.

Town more likely to be careful about what they “give away” to scum. If Elias is scum, he has no need to worry about

Your defense to this was particularly unconvincing, when in the next post you deflected attention and pushed all blame onto Hermit, while attacking Para for FOSing you.

I need to reread before I say anything, but I'm suspicious of Hermit[.....] and Vollkan, since I'm town, the fact that Oman indicated me last on his list seems to be too convenient to be a coincidence. I seriously think that Oman and Vollkan (mafia aligned dayvig) had this worked out as a planned gambit.

Para - This is actually the post that made me make a mental note and suspect you over it, I simply forgot it when I was laying everything out. In the part I italicized you suggest that Oman mentioned you as a way to get you lynched. Well this admits that you think Oman mentioning you is damning evidence, SO damning that he must've been out to get you. This is BS, Oman was confused and acting slightly sycophantic to volkan. He could've just been making up suspicions and prefferences. Maybe he actually realized his own suspect status(it's not that hard to see that volkan was out to get him) and want you to get mislynched later.

But you go as far as to use Volkan's unconfirmed-ness as a defense. It's stupid. You think Oman's preference of you is so significant that you now suspect Volkan. Volkan has done nothing seriously suspect! There's no reason to "seriously think" that the whole thing was a plan to get you.

I'll tell you what it looks like to me, it looks like you've gone from denial to playing on everybody's suspicions, redirecting them at Volkan. It's weak, it's contrived, and it's scummy

I'm sure there is a reason you have a perfect scum record. Clearly when you are scum, you don't tend to make obvious mistakes or many scumtells and it's hard to find obvious cases where we can be sure you bussed or buddied up. The best we would have to go on is sloppy play by your scum buddies (such as Oman's list). You are going to be able to refute anything we say, but you would be able to do so just as well if not better if you were mafia.

If anyone here is going to be able to win this game as scum when the odds are clearly against them, it's probably Elias. Whether he is scum or Town, he'll have a convincing defense to anything brought against him.

By the way; This is a game

that id like to win

. If swearing is the only way that you guys are gonna listen to what I have to say and not make a mistake by lynching me, then ***, im gonna swear, and I dont care whether you like it or not.

IN MY OPINION (take it or leave it but it's what I think) this statement just sounds like someone afraid to ruin his perfect scum record.

[Setael]

416: On rereading, thinks Para looks VERY scummy. Unvotes Hermit while he looks for more info. Here's where my Scum!Elias model starts to break down. There's no reason for him to unvote; Hermit is still the popular lynch, barring a few stubborn hangers-on, and it would have been easy to say, "We're running out of time, lynch Hermit today and get Para tomorrow", but he does not. Instead, he takes a serious look at para, following up on the suspicion that he's had for several days. I like this post. Very town. That Para later came up town is unfortunate, but I appreciate that he ditched the "popular" vote to follow up on his own suspicions.

Interesting. This makes it sound as though Hermit was completely at the forefront and Elias out of nowhere decided to unvote and "follow up on his own suspicions" of Para. Possibly Hermit is making this assumption because he is only reading Elias' posts rather than all the surrounding posts in context. Possibly he has other motivations for interpreting this post the way he did. Let's look at the posts leading to Elias' decision to unvote Hermit and look into Para.

I feel like Para is scum and should be the lynch of the day.

CKD: I agree about Paras lurking. I totally forgot about him.

I can't say that I necessarily think your case is particularly extensive, but I maintain my suspicion from Para earlier (I kind of got sidetracked by Elias and then Hermit).

Vote: Paradoxombie

Post 391 vollkan votes Elias the Thief

I would rather lynch Para, for lies upon mis truths...but if the time comes I will vote Elias...I am not sold on Hermit and if everything remains constant will not vote for him Day 1.

I really don't like Hermit's actions, but I behaved almost exactly like that myself in my first game and I was a vanilla.

Para's stuff with the dragged out and misappropriated quotes has added to my suspicion of him. He didn't just explain himself like Elias, he had to strike out.

Post 398 Para votes The Hermit

Post 401 Jordan FOS's Para a couple times and presents several reasons he thinks Para is scummy, ends up voting The Hermit

looks like Hermit will hang today....I would perfer it to be Para..but Hermit's play is just bad.

Para actually has lied and used quote out of context to form a case and deflect suspicion from himself. He is our scum...he gets his vote in and just disappears?

TOWN this is our scum....

Posts 407-410 back and forth between Para and CKD

I do not need to play any type of card...your [Para's] scummy nature is "forcing my hand".

It didn't really happen the way Hermit portrayed it. Not long before Elias unvoted Hermit and started looking at Para, both vollkan and CKD stated that they would prefer an Elias lynch over a Hermit lynch. CKD flat out said he would not vote Hermit Day 1. Vollkan and CKD both said they would prefer a Para lynch over a Hermit lynch. At this point in the game vollkan, CKD and Elias were arguably the three most active players. When you take that into account, Elias' switch from Hermit to Para looks more like pure and simple self-preservation than anything really Townish.

This statement by Hermit made me wonder about his motivation. If I'm wrong about Elias and Hermit is the last remaining scum, I can see Hermit being motivated to make a post like this one. First of all, it makes him look Town to spend the time to analyze individual players. Second, he takes the player who most thinks he's scum and points out something he thinks makes him look Town. The fact that it's taken out of context and doesn't seem accurate at all makes me think that rather than really thinking this is a reason for us to stop suspecting Elias, it's something Hermit has contrived to get us to see him (Hermit) as Town. This way, if we lynch Elias and he comes up Town, Hermit comes off looking pretty good.

Whoever is scum at this point has to survive through a couple more days of discussion. They're going to be very conscious of the things happening today affecting who gets lynched tomorrow. This Hermit post seems to contain that kind of forsight and planning that the last remaining scum would need in order to win this game. Not sure what to think about it - maybe I'm totally off. I'd like to hear from both Hermit and Elias about it.

[Setael]

These posts are all really damning, in my opinion. If Elias was a newb I'd let it go, but seeing as he is as experienced he is, with the record he is, I think he just proved to me that he's scum.

Now as for the mason claim, I dunno. It could just be a ploy to get the masons to counterclaim. But until I hear a claim, I definately cant justify voting you. I really dont want masons to claim until they have to. For now I guess I will turn my attention back to Hermit, and take a closer look at gorc.

Elias knows very well that a single scum would never claim mason in this situation.

I forgot that there was only one scum.

There is just NO WAY that Elias forgot there is only one scum left. He's much too involved in this game for that to be possible.

But if he is lying, why not have the real mason claim? Lets change it around, either real mason claims, or scum counterclaims: we lynch one today, one tomorrow, we win. Worst case scenario is a win tomorrow. This isnt to say CKD is lying, I just dont understand why you wouldnt want the masons to claim if they know that CKD is not a mason.

Once again, Elias playing stupid. He knows very well that if CKD was lying there would be TWO living masons who could easily counterclaim and the scum would be lynched lickity split.

Yeah. It would be a VERY stupid scum move to false claim mason here, so I guess (barring counterclaims) I'll take it at face value.

You

honestly

expect us to believe that you didn't realize that until Hermit said it?

I now understand what you meant, so yeah, no problems there. I'm now in an interesting place. Theres one confirmed player, I'm pretty sure that another is protown. So minus 2 people, also minus myself, and I've narrowed my field of possible scum to 4. This gives me good grounds to work from.

Hermit's reaction to CKD's claim was very pro-town. Nelly's reaction did not seem scummy because I don't think scum would theorize about who the masons are like that. Elias' reaction on the other hand was about as scummy as it could've possibly been.

[Setael]

unvote

I've been thinking if it turns out I'm wrong about Elias and he comes up Town, that I would then look closer at gorckat. A few things have changed my mind. First of all, gorckat's vote on Elias immediately after Elias' post which seemed to me like sincerely frustrated and fed up Town. Also, I need to reread the posts leading up to the SPAG lynch and knowing that Elias is really good at being scum, I don't think he would have been so sloppy regarding SPAG if they were scum buddies. I don't think he would have ignored and totally disregarded posts about SPAG if he was scum. I think he would have acted more like... gorckat did. In the posts leading up to SPAG/Yagami's lynch, gorckat's posts could definitely have been bussing. He had to know it'd take a miracle for SPAG to not get lynched and his posts could've been aimed at looking Town once SPAG came up scum.

I'm leaning more toward a gorckat vote, but I'm going to reread first.

[Setael]

also, FoS Set, for jumping on the bandwagon too..jesus, this town goes back and forth

Give me a break. Since when is it "jumping on the bandwagon" to express suspicion of someone WITHOUT voting them? Can we tone down the know it all attitude? Just because you're a mason doesn't mean you can talk down to the rest of us.

I am not sure of Elias any more than I am sure of gorckat. I unvoted because after thinking about the end of Day 2 I don't know if PerfectRecordEliasScums' actions make sense. On the other hand, with the way gorckat acted toward SPAG I could see gorckatScum preparing for his scumbuddy SPAG's inevitable lynch.

Besides all my reasons that I have posted for thinking Elias is scum, I also have reason to think he is scum for metagaming reasons that I cannot state because they have to do with an ongoing game. I have been trying to not rely heavily on those reasons because I know that he has a good record as scum and obviously it is unlikely that he acts the same every time he is scum and every time he is town.

That being said, I think I need to think on it awhile and do some rereading before I vote.

[Setael]

I don't have time to post all my reasons, but I'm going to vote in case I don't make it back before deadline. If I'm able to check in tomorrow morning, I will post my reasons. In a nutshell, I feel that gorckat is most likely to be scum.

vote: gorckat

[Setael]

Ok so here are the posts which convinced me to vote gorckat. Now that I know ckd is a mason, there are a lot of things gorckat said throughout the game that seem scummy.

Also...interesting turn of phrase there: ...cleared CKD in my mind as being scum...

Not just 'cleared' or 'cleared of' or even 'as not scum', but "cleared...as being scum".

Could definitely be scum trying to twist someone's words and create suspicion that isn't justified.

ckd seems to be pushing xombie pretty hard. Makes a big show of leading the town, too.

FOS: ckd

Once again feels like he's trying to generate suspicion against ckd for inconsequential things.

By themselves, they are very "appealy" to something (authority, perhaps- I forget all the various sorts of appeals).

Early on, many of your posts were non-commital- calling out lurkers, asking others opinions before giving your own, vote counts. "Helpful" things. Plus your reaction to xombie's slip (I'm not sure of whether it is as big a deal as you make it).

They feel like noob scum to me. Re-reading xombie, Hermit, ckd, Nelly, Oman, Sir Tornado...I'm not convinced that xombie is the lynch for today. Certainly not the way you are.

I'm still poking at Sir Tornado with my vote, atm. I'll be checking in later to see what's what.

Still trying to generate suspicion of CKD - also, his hesitation on the xombie lynch very well could've been because he knew xombie would come up town and wouldn't want to have been seen pushing too hard for that lynch.

If xombie comes up scum, of course I'd remove any standing vote/FoS.

Again seems contrived with the previous knowledge that xombie would come up town.

xombie's at -1 by my count (3 votes since volk quoted the vote count). Given the choice between No-Lynch and Lynch in this situation, I'll always favor lynch and will hammer xombie closer to deadline. We're nowhere near LYLO and it whittles down the suspects, but at the moment, I'm not sure xombie is it.

A decent case has been made, but we have a little time.

Never has agreed with the xombie case up to this point. Then out of nowhere says "a decent case has been made." He definitely played it safe, never really agreeing with the xombie lynch but not fighting it enough to look like he

knew

xombie would come up town.

I suppose we can wait for Day 2 to explore it a bit more (if anyone is inclined). I considered the 'PM to a friend' a sign that one (active) scum pmed (a flaky) scum.

The mild reactions by others in the town appease me.

Seems like he jumped on CKD's PM to SPAG in hopes that once SPAG came up scum, all eyes would turn to CKD as his scum partner. When the town didn't buy it, he backed off.

On the PM thing, I guess if ckd was scum, he'd have to be truly foolish to admit he made the PM publicly. In his place, I'd have PM'd the mod and said "Hey- I misunderstood what you meant and PM'd SPAG".

Am I reading too much into this, or is this gorckat saying that in order to avoid looking scummy, he'd have PM'd the mod instead of admitting to us that he'd PM'd SPAG? This makes him look more self aware than your average townie. Since we now know that CKD is town, we know that

his

reaction was the townie one.

@ckd: Part of my querry to SPAG is because I'm stuck with a possible link between you in my head. At the simplest level, nothing was implied when you prodded SPAG on your own and you did come clean right away, so my suspicions might not go anywhere.

Looks like he's subtly trying to establish a link between SPAG and ckd again, knowing SPAG will likely be lynched.

He was within one post of two players that you felt town. One of those players had contributed very little, as Hermit pointed out. It appears that you wanted SPAG cleared and pulse not.

It's a little thing that makes Oman's list look like a cover for you.

I might be inclined to vote for SPAG today, over Elias. I concede a small chance (say less than 20%) that Elias is town, in which case SPAG's own apparent guilt just happens to put Elias in a bad light.

Once again spoken as though he knows SPAG will come up scum, and in this case he tries to implicate Elias.

I've also expressed interest in voting Yagami, so it could be considered -1.5.

I've re-read a few nifty tidbits, so I need to look back before I commit. Sitting cozily on Elias based on Oman's list and xombie's affiliation.

Bussing without actually having to vote.

I posted reaffriming my previous interest in Yagami and that my leanings could lead me to vote. You immediately said please don't. I said ok. If you look at those three posts like that, not so bad, huh?

Kept making it clear he WOULD vote yagami without actually doing it. Takes every opportunity to put it off.

well, here is my problem...top three are Yagami/gorckat/hermit...

No response to my post responding to your case (even if its only "I don't buy it")?

I'd still much rather lynch hermit then yagami...

Not surprising, since I'm inclined to think you two are partners.

@gorck – what do you think of this supposed connection now that ckd is a claimed mason?

I was hoping the masons would make it till tomorrow and would be able to help us forc a win

I think the other one should claim now: It will help the rest of the town by narrowing down suspects now. We can work with a field of 4 rather than 6 (or 5, since ckd is out already).

There is no universe in which this is not scummy.

I'll be on later tonight and will address specific posts that were referred to and any new questions.

This is the last thing gorckat said, back on friday. His silence this weekend feels the same as it did when Yagami was on the verge of being hammered. He doesn't bother to fight or defend himself or convince us to keep from lynching a townie, he just stops fighting and waits for someone to hammer. I can't see a townie reacting in this way.

It's still not too late. gorckat - if you are Town, why are you silent? Any defense would be better than what you are doing...

I would like to hear from everyone before deadline. In case gorckat comes up Town, this might really help us tomorrow. If anyone thinks gorckat is Town, please say why. If you just don't think he's scum, please expound on that as well.

[Setael]

I think it's odd that you say you think Shanba is the last scum, but want to vote Elias. I know it's not kosher to theorize about who the masons are which is why I stayed out of Nelly's musings yesterday, but I think the final mason is pretty well narrowed down to either Shanba or Hermit, so I wouldn't be willing to wagon either of them. I suggest that neither of you come even close to claiming or denying since if we mislynch today that would make you tonight's target.

After gorckat turned up scum, I think we have to rethink some things. I think I've been giving Nelly a free pass which was maybe a mistake. His attempts to draw out the last mason yesterday gave off major scum vibes and his first post today once again made me doubt my original feeling that he was obvtown. It still very well could be Elias, but I'm rereading before I decide who to vote for.

[Setael]

I find it interesting that you vote me considering you have never once mentioned any suspicion of me, nor do you give any concrete reason now. You think Shanba and Elias are scum, but you're voting me... because I'm not the last mason when you thought I was? Does that really make sense to you?

Is the

only

reason you are voting me

seriously

because I accidentally said "gorckat turned up scum" when I obviously meant "gorckat turned up Town?" That's a pretty big stretch, you have to admit. Your vote is both OMGUS and senseless.

I don't know but something deep down inside me wants to just toss my vote on you right now and just not look back taking the consequences that would come with it but never changing my vote.

That attitude is not exactly pro-Town.

Regardless of how anti-Town you are being right now, I would still be shocked if you are scum, though I do plan to reread and see if I was just being blind by assuming you were Town. At this point I think you are just being an unhelpful, foolish Townie.

P.S. I very much disagree that the last mason should claim, nor do I see how Nelly could possibly think it's town to suggest it. We are far from guaranteed to lynch correctly today and it's senseless to point out the last mason for tonight's NK.

[Setael]

I think you meant Nelly.

Yesterday there were several posts telling CKD that he should either have his mason buddy claim, or breadcrumb who the other mason is. I would be willing to bet that once CKD heard that, he did breadcrumb and the 3rd mason will be able to prove they are a mason in a 1v1v1 situation. If that is the case (and if it's not, then the masons weren't so bright) then the mason should NOT claim, and obviously won't if they have half a brain, since they would know there is no need. I really wonder about both Nelly and Elias, because I'd think they could realize on their own that CKD must have breadcrumbed. They can't both be mafia. More likely, one of them is scum and the other one is just not thinking. You can probably all guess which one is which.

[Setael]

Nelly, please give reasons why you think I am scum. So far, these are the reasons you have given:
1) I'm not a mason.
2) I once typed "scum" instead of "town" in a sentence where I obviously meant town.

Uh... I think that's it. I should not have inferred that you are stupid - that was uncalled for. I was obviously frustrated that you would vote me for no good reason the way you did.

If you are going to keep your vote on me, please reread me and see if there are any decent reasons for thinking I am scum. Don't forget to read the SPAG wagon because I don't see how my stand on him could possibly be interpreted as anything but pro-Town.

Elias I'm still fairly sure is town. There are things that worry me still, but the overall feel I get is town. TheHermit I'm more worried about, but I don't think he's a good lynch today.

Please give us your reasons for thinking Elias is town. Also, please give your reasons for concern re: TheHermit.

So it's down to Nelly and Setael. Nelly's self-vote trap strikes me as a town play, becaus I don't see scum's mind working like that. There are several other comments he's made which make me think he's probably town. I don't like his fishing for the masons, but overall I reckon he's town.

I agree with all of this. I still think Nelly is Town, I just think he needs to reread.

That leaves Setael. Early in his posts he votes SPAG: this is good. I like it.

And yet I am your main scum suspect. Please reconcile the two.

However, there are other things that drag him back below the neutral category. His position on Gorckat and Elias is one of them. After SPAG died, he was pushing Elias fairly heavily. However, he then suddenly turned his attention to Gorckat with this comment:

I've been thinking if it turns out I'm wrong about Elias and he comes up Town, that I would then look closer at gorckat.

He supplies reasons and logic behind his switch to Gorckat, too, but this still reads as scummy. If one is town, he'll attack the other? Two birds with one stone. As such, he's my top candidate for scum.

This is the only reason you give for me being your top candidate for scum, and it is a very weak reason. I admit that I put too much weight on the fact that a claimed mason thought gorckat was scum. I was suspicious of gorckat and thought if I happened to be wrong about Elias, then I would turn attention to gorckat. Once the mason was pushing harder for gorckat, I decided to support him and switch, especially since I knew it was very possible I was wrong about Elias and gorckat was actually the scum.

I think you, also, need to reread me. No one has anything genuinely scummy to bring up against me because there isn't anything.

[Setael]

VERDICT: pulsewidth was pretty lurky, but Setael's

but Setael's what?

[Setael]

My initial response to your summary of me was that you are therefore Town, because I think you could've found a way to present a case on me and voted me if you were scum hoping to get a wagon going. That, along with Nelly's vote would draw either the last scum's vote or maybe even a Townie if your case was convincing enough (if that townie thinks you're the last mason, a case presented by you might be even more convincing. They might be smarter than I was yesterday though and not put so much weight on that, especially where there is no claim - it's all guesswork and process of elimination at this point).

This conclusion re: Hermit's reread of me would leave me Elias and Shanba as options for the last scum, since I'm still pretty confident Nelly is Town. I realize that this initial response could be flawed when we take WIFOM into account. Hermitscum could be attempting to get me to think exactly what I did. He may have realized how hard it would be to paint my play as scummy and decided to stick with pushing Elias. So I'm torn.

I'm also very unsure what to think about Elias. There are so many things about his play that can be seen as scummy, but when I moved my vote from him to gorckat, I was starting to think his d2 play had to be Town. I just can't see Eliasscum totally ignoring and disregarding the case on SPAG, since he'd know SPAG would come up scum and would therefore look really bad for Elias. The one thing that makes me doubt this is that he still insists that there was no case on SPAG and lynching him was just luck. I can see Eliasscum trying to explain away his stance on SPAG by criticisizing and belittling the case on SPAG.

I could be wrong about Shanba, but I haven't seen reason to suspect that role and don't want to pressure him at all.

This leaves the choice between Hermit and Elias, and I'm leaning toward Elias being the last remaining scum.

[Setael]

That post was incredibly broken. Half the things that say "Shanba said" are actually quotes of things I said.

As I said, you're there because you're reading about neutral whilst others are reading town.

I don't know what you mean by this. Please clarify.

[Setael]

Ah, I see. I think you should reread, then.

[Setael]

Wow.

Elias is more of a gut thing. The thing is, every argument I've seen against him he's addressed fairly accurately and correctly.

Elias has a perfect scum record. Don't you think someone who has never lost as scum would be able to address arguments against him "fairly accurately and correctly" when he's scum?

I think Elias is our best bet.

vote: Elias

[Setael]

Ok I need to think about this. I panicked because 48 hours feels like no time at all and for all I know no one is going to check the thread before then. I'm hoping I was wrong, and that's enough time to talk about this a little more.

Unvote

.

I reread Shanba and I'm starting to think I was wrong to assume he was the last mason. I think he may actually be our last scum.

I'm fairly certain Gorckat is pro-town, despite the flak that was thrown at him at the end of yesterday. I found myself agreeing wiht him again and again which is normally a good sign.

OTOH, I'm wary of elias. It seems like he's playing from a scum mindset, given the comments that he was trying to avoid suspicion. I realise he said that was just one of the reasons he voted TheHermit instead of Nelly, but that's irrelevant. It's a scummy mindset, and deservs more attention than being lost in the walls of words between him and vollkan.

Vote: Elias

It's as if he's trying to reinforce the idea in everyone's ehad that he must be town. Again, like the Elias thing, this is indicative of a scummy mentality.

I never picked up on this before, but Shanba's full turn around on Elias is very suspicious. He was very sure Elias was scum, and now he's very sure he is Town. He has not given adequate reasons for such a full scale change of heart. Even if Shanba thinks Elias has responded well to arguments against him, after being so sure Elias was playing with a "scummy mindset", he would still have lingering suspicions if he was Town. His extreme stances make it look like he

knows

Elias is Town.

The other main thing making me wonder if Shanba might be scum is this vote on the SPAG wagon:

You decided that... before you analysed him? ^_o

Vote: YagamiLight. That puts him at -1. He needs lynching.

That's not a good enough reason to put someone to -1. It looks like an excuse to bus. It was pretty clear at this point that yagami was going to be lynched. I think it likely that scum would want to be on that wagon, knowing that SPAG would come up scum. This is one of my main reasons to think I'm wrong about Elias - his lack of presence on the SPAG wagon. I disagree with Elias that there was no case on SPAG. All you have to do is read d2 to find it. However, I keep finding myself coming back to the fact that EliasScum just wouldn't have totally disregarded a case against a scum buddy. I did not remember Elias saying he had lost a game as scum. I thought he had a perfect record and I can so see us kicking ourselves if he pulls this off on us. However, I really am not that sure about him and he is right that me thinking he would be the best of us at pulling off a scum win does not make him scum.

I could very well be wrong, but Shanba's full turn around on Elias without any concrete reason, his SPAG vote which I now think was bussing and his play today make me think he is the last scum.

vote: Shanba

[Setael]

I'm pretty sure that puts me at -1 since Nelly's foundation-less vote is still on me. All Town players please keep in mind that if someone hammers me right now they are the scum. There is absolutely no grounds for a case on me and there is absolutely no way that my vote on SPAG yesterday was bussing, so I think it is impossible that a Townie would hammer me. If I am hammered, that person is our last scum and should be lynched tomorrow.

You reference my play today, but you don't explain what you mean by that.

Thought it would be obvious. I meant you going after me for absolutely no reason when there is nothing at all scummy about my play. You really should reread before you vote.

In light of the fact that there is NO case on me and NO reason to vote me and there is NO way my position on SPAG/Yagami was bussing, any Townie who votes for me right now I will consider fully responsible if you mislynch again tomorrow causing a Town loss.

[Setael]

I looked up your analysis of SPAG, and found that you are right. You did a pretty thorough analysis/case on SPAG and found him scummy. I still think it likely you were bussing SPAG since by this point it had to be obvious to his scum buddy that SPAG was likely going to be lynched and the last thing they should do was defend him. My question for you is this:

All these times Elias has claimed there was never any case on SPAG, why did you never bring up this post of yours with this case you made on SPAG? If you were pro-Town I would think you'd have tried to prove Elias wrong. If you are scum, it makes sense that you wouldn't want to put yourself on Elias' radar.

SPAG: Starts off with the "Omanscum googling his name" thing. There's possibly something to that, but I don't see it as particularly strong. It's possible that he just picked a random townie and googled his name, but it's also possible he was looking up info on his scumbuddy. Nothing conclusive to my mind.

He FoSses Ojpower without removing his random vote. He then plays both sides of the DFN/Ojpower debate, possibly looking to see which one he can build a wagon on. Alternatively, he could have been waiting to see if an attack on his scumbuddy would blow over or he would have to bus him. Either way, still looks scummy.

Note - I hate his wordchoice in basically all his posts. He is forever qualifying all his suspicions or divulging his own responsibilities.

3 posts in a row in which he says he will try and catch up. Active lurker?

Post 13: Scummyscummy scum scum. Hate this post with a passion. See my earlier note.

another 3 odd posts saying nothing in particular, or repeating what he already said.

Post 18: huge quote to which he adds almost nothing. Trying to look like content when really, it's not.

Post 20: WIFOM alert. Read at your own risk.

his final post he votes Para again, saying he hopes "we" are right. Actually, that's something else I ahte about his word choice. He's almost never says "I" when talking about his suspicions. It's as if he's trying to reinforce the idea in everyone's ehad that he must be town. Again, like the Elias thing, this is indicative of a scummy mentality.

Conclusion: Scummy looking lurker. Very few redeeming features in his posts. WIFOM, procrastination and playing both sides of arguments abound. May well vote him after I go through some other players.

[Setael]

So I was thinking... sitting here at -1 has brought out the philosopher in me. In this situation, the scum is REALLY not going to want to be the one who hammers a mislynch. I think they would, however, be pretty motivated to put someone to -1 so that someone ELSE has to hammer. If Shanba is the last scum, I do not believe I will be hammered because no Town player will hammer me when there is absolutely no case, and no reason in my play to justify me being scum.

I can't remember what happens at deadline in this game. If I have 2 votes on me will I be lynched if we hit the deadline, or if there is no hammer is there no lynch? If I can die with 2 votes, scum could just sit back and watch me die without having to actually hammer. Can someone clarify this, please?

[Setael]

Thanks, Albert. Good to know.

@Elias: What do you think of the case Shanba made against SPAG? It's definitely not just related to SPAG's hammer. Moreover, what do you think of the fact that Shanba never brought up his case when you were insisting no case had been made on SPAG?

SPAG: Starts off with the "Omanscum googling his name" thing. There's possibly something to that, but I don't see it as particularly strong. It's possible that he just picked a random townie and googled his name, but it's also possible he was looking up info on his scumbuddy. Nothing conclusive to my mind.

He FoSses Ojpower without removing his random vote. He then plays both sides of the DFN/Ojpower debate, possibly looking to see which one he can build a wagon on. Alternatively, he could have been waiting to see if an attack on his scumbuddy would blow over or he would have to bus him. Either way, still looks scummy.

Note - I hate his wordchoice in basically all his posts. He is forever qualifying all his suspicions or divulging his own responsibilities.

3 posts in a row in which he says he will try and catch up. Active lurker?

Post 13: Scummyscummy scum scum. Hate this post with a passion. See my earlier note.

another 3 odd posts saying nothing in particular, or repeating what he already said.

Post 18: huge quote to which he adds almost nothing. Trying to look like content when really, it's not.

Post 20: WIFOM alert. Read at your own risk.

his final post he votes Para again, saying he hopes "we" are right. Actually, that's something else I ahte about his word choice. He's almost never says "I" when talking about his suspicions. It's as if he's trying to reinforce the idea in everyone's ehad that he must be town. Again, like the Elias thing, this is indicative of a scummy mentality.

Conclusion: Scummy looking lurker. Very few redeeming features in his posts. WIFOM, procrastination and playing both sides of arguments abound. May well vote him after I go through some other players.

[Setael]

That said, I am NOT willing to hammer Setael. Nelly's vote is completely baseless, and Shanba's isn't much better

No, I'm not convinced that Elias is scum. But if it comes down to a choice between Elias, Setael, and NoLynch, I'd push for Elias to hang with no second thoughts.

Hermit, what are your thoughts on Shanba?

[Setael]

SPAG: Starts off with the "Omanscum googling his name" thing. There's possibly something to that, but I don't see it as particularly strong. It's possible that he just picked a random townie and googled his name, but it's also possible he was looking up info on his scumbuddy. Nothing conclusive to my mind.

He FoSses Ojpower without removing his random vote. He then plays both sides of the DFN/Ojpower debate, possibly looking to see which one he can build a wagon on. Alternatively, he could have been waiting to see if an attack on his scumbuddy would blow over or he would have to bus him. Either way, still looks scummy.

Note - I hate his wordchoice in basically all his posts. He is forever qualifying all his suspicions or divulging his own responsibilities.

3 posts in a row in which he says he will try and catch up. Active lurker?

Post 13: Scummyscummy scum scum. Hate this post with a passion. See my earlier note.

another 3 odd posts saying nothing in particular, or repeating what he already said.

Post 18: huge quote to which he adds almost nothing. Trying to look like content when really, it's not.

Post 20: WIFOM alert. Read at your own risk.

his final post he votes Para again, saying he hopes "we" are right. Actually, that's something else I ahte about his word choice. He's almost never says "I" when talking about his suspicions. It's as if he's trying to reinforce the idea in everyone's ehad that he must be town. Again, like the Elias thing, this is indicative of a scummy mentality.

Conclusion: Scummy looking lurker. Very few redeeming features in his posts. WIFOM, procrastination and playing both sides of arguments abound. May well vote him after I go through some other players.

Saw this while looking up the post # for Shanba's SPAG case:

Post 241: Sir Tornado (Shanba) comes out of no where and agrees with the Hermit that Vollkan can be scum and he does not see why the mafia would kill vollkan Night 1.

Sir Tornado stayed under the radar pretty well all game. The more I look into his play, the more I can see a possibility of him (and therefore Shanba) being our scum. I can definitely see Sir Tornado's post here being scum attempting to cast suspicion on vollkan. I also found it interesting that he wasn't the first to bring it up, but instead agreed with the Hermit once he said it. Not something scum would want to be the first one to say.

[Setael]

If you were Town, there would be people on your list because you'd be as unsure as the rest of us. If you are scum, it makes sense that no one is on your scum list because you know that we are all Town.

[Setael]

I did unvote at the top of that post. But just in case,

Unvote, vote: Shanba

Oh, and Nelly - the most pro-Town thing you can do right now is unvote me. Feel free to reread first if you have time, because I'm confident no Townie will hammer me. Just make sure once you've reread to either

A) present a solid case on me - be sure to include how my SPAG vote could be construed as scummy. That I'd like to see. Or

B) Unvote me.

There is a high likelihood that I will still be the one lynched if we hit deadline since I had 2 votes first. You've got to realize that your vote is baseless - reread and unvote me.

[Setael]

Lucky for you, I'm not good enough at being scum to have fooled you. Also, I could be wrong, but you may need to unvote me before voting shanba.

[Setael]

Sorry Hermit you're right. I didn't think about waiting for him to claim. I figured if he was the mason, he'd have claimed once he was -1. Hopefully we were right about him, or I'm going to feel pretty sheepish...

[Setael]

YAY! Way to go, Town!

I was really worried yesterday, sitting at -1. I knew if someone hammered me and I came up mason people would be pissed I didn't claim. CKD and I strategized during the night before he died on how I could shake off my "Hello, I'm obviously the third mason" rep. I didn't want to waste all that work trying to confuse the mafia as to who the real mason was by claiming, when I could prove I was mason if it came down to 1v1v1 (CKD breadcrumbed all the way back in Post 212). I just had to trust that no Townie would hammer me after my SPAG push.

Shanba, did I throw you off at all? Would you have NK'd me if we'd lynched Elias or someone else?

Good catch, Set! Did you use 'affiliation' when you replaced pulse on purpose? That was what I was looking to confirm Day 2/3 when I was convinced Elias was scum on Oman's list.

I actually have a funny confession, which I wouldn't have admitted if we'd lost. I didn't know what a mason was when I replaced pulse, and when I got his PM I misunderstood it and thought vollkan and CKD were my scum buddies rather than my mason buddies. My entire first read of the thread I thought vollkan and CKD were scum, and my first post was written under that assumption. I was sure Para was Town (because I thought I was scum). Shortly after writing my first post, I reread my role PM and panicked. Luckily it didn't hurt us too badly, but I think if I'd have understood I was a mason my first post would've been different.

[Setael]

I will respect CKD's wishes to keep the breadcrumb hidden. It's a smart one - virtually impossible for scum to find, but indisputable once pointed out.

I was pretty sure Hermit knew I was bluffing when trying to look like I wasn't a mason, and played along. Both Nelly and Elias' reactions didn't help muddy the waters at all. Well done, Hermit

[Setael]

This was my "coming of age" game. I was definitely a newb when I started, but I can use the newbie excuse no more.

[Setael]

Well done Setael. I was really concerned at the end there but you did brilliantly.

This is a high compliment. Thanks, vollkan.

[Setael]

Setael somehow derailed the Elias wagon when I thought all was lost

setael derailed my wagon? Geez, its not like I had 154 posts of defense by the end.

It's actually funny to look back at how I kept going in circles on Elias. I'd be convinced he was scum and then remember my own argument that he wouldn't have disregarded a scum buddy's wagon (SPAG's) so blatantly.

Though I think it's not very gracious of Elias to claim all the scum lynches were just luck, it would've been a lot tougher if Shanba (or SPAG, or Oman) would've fought the cases on them as hard as Elias did.