Mini 471: End.

[ChronX]

Hi I'm replacing Haut Boy and will be up to speed....er, as soon as possible.

[ChronX]

OK. There is a lot to digest in this thread and my style is to post thoughts on one issue at a time. So I will start with the last, the elephant in the room no one seems to be looking at:

Why was Kravkhen the scum's night kill?

It doesn't make sense to me. He was widely viewed as scummy. He narrowly avoided being the bandwagon candidate early in the game. It seems like he could easily have accumulated momentum again on day 2 for a lynching. The scum obviously knew he was not one of them.

So, what did he do that was either SO pro-town or so anti-one particular individual that brought their wrath?

I don't think it would be easy to look at who he feuded with; he pretty much feuded with everyone. He late bandwagoned (I think his vote didn't count it was so late) on Adel, re-visiting one of his earlier nemesis. Again, would have been easy to build the case that he was scum from this move. Given his lack of credibility, he would have been hard pressed to make the case that he wasn't being an opportunistic scum; I suspect public sentiment would have dismissed any protestations as either WIFOM or that he wasn't good enough to even consider the implication.

So now we are at 2 possibilities:

the first is that we have a SECOND doctor, or a roleblocker, who successfully stopped the mob, and Krackden was knocked off by a vig who was convinced he was anti-town or just wanted him out of the way as an anti-town distraction. This is within the realm of possibility but depends on too many coincidences.

The second choice is that one of his accusations hit too near the mark, and the hope was that by silencing him, he wouldn't be around to revisit the suspicion and his general buffoonery on day 1 could be counted on to make most of his blathering be treated as such.

He was obviously wrong about Adel. His case against SirT seems more like OMGUS than credible/logical, but should be weighed. However, his accusations against deadscilent are quite strident, and while his manner of doing so hurt his credibility, he did make some points that registered enough with DS to get her to engage in debate with him.

If you buy this theory, it puts pickem as a clear townie, which he strikes me as. An impatient townie who doesn't suffer fools gladly, and may have ended up defending a scum. However, his defense of DS was on procedural grounds, and pickem was the one who formally called for a DS prod.

Executive summary: putting together my feel for the whole narrative which has been day 1 and the dawn of 2, and specifically about what I've discussed above, I would say:

IGMEOU: Deadscilent

and will look forward to the exploits of pickemgenius on day 2 as he plays devil's advocate for the town's logical debates.

[ChronX]

Next topic:

What IS the deal with Camisade/Theo?

I'll be briefer here. There have been legitimate and ongoing FoS's at Camisade. Suddenly he is gone from the game. RL issues, was he disgusted with the antics of crossgaming that got Adel lynched? Or did the kitchen get too hot and he bailed.

Along comes Theo, who posts a very lengthy and impressive digest of the first 15 or 16 pages of the game. But that's all it is, for the most part, a summary. Very little in the way of analysis or conclusions, aside from some criticism of Deadscilent's handling of her near-lynch. If you accept a premise of my previous post that DS is scummy, Theo's criticism of her could be taken as bussing, or better yet, open coaching of a fellow scum while appearing to criticize.

Food for thought.

IGMEOU: Theopor_COD

[ChronX]

Geez I pay you a compliment and you toss out a cryptic nugget like that?

[ChronX]

Yes. The town lynching Adel becasue someone had a metagame issue with her and cross gamed was much more productive for the town. Thats getting a free pass too, since it would be "WIFOM" to suggest that maybe ABR did that with the EXCUSE that it was metagame but really it was game driven.

WIFOM is thrown around too much...the whole early game is WIFOM. Its a game of logic and deception.

The other site where I play we study NKs just as much as voting patterns. I didn't know that was an offense which gets the mod to interject himself into the thread here; I thought "discussions outside the game" meant PMing someone and I would never do that.

[ChronX]

I would say that given the result, a vote on me, Patrick's comment on his leaving the game is rather out of bounds.

mod?

[ChronX]

To clarify, my prod of the

mod

is to suggest that this game is an official clusterfuck. The day 1 lynch was based entirely on poor sportsmanship and CROSSgaming not metagaming. Now we have a person in the game and either a current or former player discussing the game while it is active.

I personally think it should be abandoned. This is not because the vote went to me, but because someone drew a conclusion based on improperly received information, which was a post that the poster got improper information.

What a mess.

[ChronX]

/ooc I don't think SirTornado gets the difference between metagaming, and crosses-the-line behavior. Examining the way a player plays to see if they have tells when they are scum is perfectly acceptable. Finding out that someone knew something from irregular/illegal contact, and then trying to draw a conclusion on the basis of that, isn't...Patrick should never have posted what he did, but the rest of us should have pretended that post was never heard, as a judge would instruct a jury to do. TBH, I blame the mod for some of this...Patrick should have been instructed to never post in the thread again, and if DS was going to be replaced, replace both at once to obscure what was going on.

Furthermore in regard to SirT, he is now asking Kravhen to post after-death thoughts from his original role. Isn't that prohibited by the rule "nothing except a bah! post after you die"? Of course, again, I think the mod is making a huge error in subbing a dead player into this game. Sometimes that can work, but this game is a little out of hand already, what with the blatant crossgame lynch successful attempt by ABR and the game revelation to patrick.

[ChronX]

I suggest not comparing old and new kravhen at all.

Looks like all anyone wanted to talk about was that, and now we all took your advice and are mum.

I'm going to try to reread the game tonight and do something to stimulate discussion. Like ask for 10 more replacements....

[ChronX]

/ooc Curious about this site: Do people conventionally consider themselves to have "won" if they are dead but their role was the side which ultimately wins? Or does one have to be alive and on the right side at the end to be a "winner"?

[ChronX]

We have to vote for someone, NOW.

Why? And why have you gotten a free pass for the horrible bandwagon you led against Adel?

[ChronX]

Couldn't HE have explained that more verbosely? I am not saying his bandwagon on Adel was scummy per se (/agree, endless loop of WIFOM to go down that road with nothing else to go on)...he just doesn't really add much to the game when he ISN'T lynching the doc. IMHO.

[ChronX]

Vote: ChronX

Strong case, there. Do you have a posting restriction?

[ChronX]

I don't like the fact that Albert is being let off due to the "too scummy to be scum" fallacy.

Who's using the "too scummy to be scum" fallacy?

At least one place, Patrick in 557 said:

Even if Tornado turns out to be scum, I wouldn't rush to crucify Albert. It would be a very bold scum move to try and create a counterwagon so late in the day to save a scumbuddy, with a high chance of failing, then backfiring and getting Albert into trouble as well.

I think this has been the general theme of the discussion about ABR leading the lynch mob to Adel. To wit: 'Scum wouldn't do that, he just lost his mind'.

vote Albert

[ChronX]

nabnab 1 Albert B Rampage (kravhen unvoted)
ChronX 1 pickemgenius (sirT unvoted)
Erotomachia 3 Blue Zebra, kravhen formerly deadscilent and NabNab
Albert d3sisted formerly patrick, sir T and chronX formerly hautboy

not voting 2 theopur formerly camisade and requested the vote count and erotomachia although i might have missed an eroto vote post

[ChronX]

EBWOP Albert has 3 votes

[ChronX]

That might grow legs actually. Interesting....

[ChronX]

Hmm, I may recondsider my vote and post an OMGUS on you, not because you are voting me but because, well....the acronym says it.

[ChronX]

That might grow legs actually. Interesting....

You're considering kravhen? Why? On Day 1 everyone was pretty much agreed that deadscilent was the VI, and I don't see what kravhen has done today to base a vote off of.

I mayself am not considering Kravhen/DS at this time. But I wouldn't be surprised to see it get some momentum. Pickemgenius seems to have no attention span, so would be a good likely candidate to pile on eventually..as an example.

[ChronX]

That might grow legs actually. Interesting....

You're considering kravhen? Why? On Day 1 everyone was pretty much agreed that deadscilent was the VI, and I don't see what kravhen has done today to base a vote off of.

I mayself am not considering Kravhen/DS at this time. But I wouldn't be surprised to see it get some momentum. Pickemgenius seems to have no attention span, so would be a good likely candidate to pile on eventually..as an example.

*Raises eyebrows*

To me, this sounds quite like scum speculating in-thread. "Well this wagon looks like it has momentum. On the other hand, this guy could be an excellent candidate for piling on to."

Town motivation for a lynch: "I think this guy is scum. I have made my case or agreed with somebodys else's case."

Scum motivation for a lynch: "I think this guy is probably going to get lynched. The cases on him are pretty convincing. This could 'grow legs.'"

That post falls squarely into category SCUM. Combine that with the third vote on the Albert wagon which seemed to be "growing legs" at the time, and I think there's a pretty solid case in just the past few pages.

Unvote; Vote: ChronX

@Sir T: It was pretty clear to me that Deadscilent was playing a different game than we were. I realize this is a matter of opinion (and as such, you're entitled to yours), but she seemed to have no conception of the basic strategies and subtleties of mafia, and I think it's unwise to put stock in a read from a player like that.

You're kind of twisting the context of my original post on its ear. Theo had asked for a vote count, I gave one, he posted that he was pretty sure he was voting Kravhen, which

I

misunderstood at the time to mean he was thinking of voting for him (I had missed his post where he already had). I was simply musing aloud that such a vote would probably attract other votes, and thus was interesting. Why interesting? It could be scum, it could be scum bait. Interesting.

Since the vote was ALREADY cast and hasn't attracted a following, I was wrong. My bad.

I stand on my vote of Albert. Nothing scummy about voting to -3 the guy who lynched the doc.

[ChronX]

I posted without reading Nab's post.

Good work there Nab, and upon further review, I'll have to say I agree ChronX smells scum.

Its odd that you'd say that NabNab's analysis is good work when in the previous post you whined in your own defense that:

Well, at least, scum likes to find any little detail they can and turn it in some kind of tell.

NabNab is manufacturing a case out of, to use his own word, "straw". Its nothing. NabNab is trying to make a case on me bacause he must be scum.

unvote ABR
vote NabokovNabokkov

[ChronX]

@ SirTornado: what do you think of the specious case against me, since it is being pushed by the 2 people who stayed on the SirTornado bandwagon day 1 to the end?

[ChronX]

(claim plz)

Vanilla town.



My vote on NabNab is OMGUS, but with reason, he tried to do this to SirT on day 1.

[ChronX]

Nab says to me

595 mentions the fact that Camisade had been holding a low/constant level of suspicion before being replaced (though not actually accusing him of anything scummy, just saying that others have), and then completely ignores the fact that Theo promised conclusions and analysis in a coming post.....

Theo clearly made the right play. I read the thread and posted some thoughts, and they are now being held against me. Theo PROMISED some, so they can't be held against him. He never really did...he said a few people were town, and put Kravhen at the top of a "scumlist" because of DS's play, and Erotomachia because he defended but not attacked, for which he lets BlueZebra say it for him in a post made 250 or so posts earlier (post 414). He then put Nab LOW on the scumlist, by saying "seems to be pretty calm, defending more than attacking". Isn't this exactly why he put Eroto HIGH on the scumlist?

Read Theo's post 652 and refer to BZ post 414 for reference.

As for NabNab going after SirT, he says:

I know this falls more under lynching the player than anything, but I think a playstyle like yours would be very easy for scum to hide in.

So, NabNab, you say:

I don't allow myself to be convinced by weak cases, and I certainly don't allow myself to make them.

Sure looks like 2 of them from this townie seat.

[ChronX]

ChronX all that looks like to me is a defence of Erotomachia and a weak attack at me for not raising my suspicions straight away after I replaced. Throughout the game I've seen NabNab post more content, actively look to attack ppl yes he's defended ppl at times but as town I can see him doing this. Eroto has another major black mark against him the Adel lynch. Your wishy washy attitude towards Kravhen on page 26 or so makes me think I may be wrong on my suspicions of him as you actually want "the wagon to grow legs" yet "don't want to vote him". Kind of like you know he'll come back town.

Could you please quote my "wishy washy" attitude rather than further twisting NabNab's misrepresentation of it? I have no attitude yet toward new Kravhen, I don't think he has done much, except now voting me, which, if I am lynched, his -1 vote will give the town fodder to work with. I had no real attitude about a wagon on Kravhen which never really existed either. The only thing I am guilty of is musing aloud over something I misunderstood from the way you said something.

[ChronX]

Added by way of post:

In case you missed the point, its an attack not a weak one on you for attacking Erotomachia using someone else's logic, in which they said that Eroto was defending not attacking. You then commended NabNab for the same exact behavior in that post. You only now cite the Adel lynch. So, my attack on you continues by pointing out that you clear NabNab using the same logic for which you "wishy washily" put some scum suspicion on Eroto.

And my original point, that a wagon based on a vote on a barely suspicious player, is sure borne out now. The case against me is based on NabNab's flawed logic twisting things I did into a case against me, and you, BZ, and Kravhen all piled on, and pickem confirmed his desire to wagon me. This game is full of people looking for a wagon, no matter how improbable.

[ChronX]

Thats a lynch. I won't miss this bizarre game much at all. Enjoy the suspense.