Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[gorckat]

What's missing from the speculation and hyperbole (I'm gonna look that up

after

I use it) are oj's comments.

I agree his action was questionable. I also agree with volkan about the rather dramatic way DFN wants to rile us up.

[gorckat]

Anything else I do or say is only going to have you asking me more questions.

Is that so bad?

[gorckat]

Whew- I almost replied at the end of page 3 before realizing I wasn't on page four Thankfully I previewed and saw things I didn't recognize.

Anyway:

Okay, looking at the OJ/DFN fiasco. I have gone through looking for people attempting to shift focus to DFN instead of OJ:

What's missing from the speculation and hyperbole (I'm gonna look that up after I use it) are oj's comments.

I agree his action was questionable. I also agree with volkan about the rather dramatic way DFN wants to rile us up.

This one sticks out to me as "protecting OJ". He gives a message firstly, about hearing from OJ. Then gives the middle-of-the-road answer "I agree it was

questionable

", then uses MUCH more dramatic language on "rather

dramatic

was DFN

wants

to

rile us up

".

I wasn't protecting anybody. It's a fact: oj hadn't posted except for his vote and was being jumped on (iirc- I started this morning with new posts since my last).

A third vote in and off itself is no risk- all the scum (assuming none on the wagon) would have to out themselves in record post times to get it done.

What I felt was questionable was the lack of content for the third vote.

And yes, I was intentionally middle of the road on DFN. His reactions strike me very much as newbly (no insult or offense intended, DFN). I've seen more experienced players often point out newb actions can be seen as scum actions, so again I find myself somewhat agreeing with volkan.

What I don't understand is the bolding of certain words calling them dramatic. I'm not sure what you were bringing up there, but it seems the overall gist of your post was revoked/rescinded a tad later.

I've got to re-read with that understanding (or clarify myself on it) so I'll be posting again shortly.

[gorckat]

Okay- there was a lot less to double check than I thought. I just don't like doing it in the preview pane.

QFT. DFN jumped up and down say we're being incited to lynch on a third vote.

I really am not sure what you were trying to say with my quote when you say the same thing yourself.

[gorckat]

Ah- I caught this on my first preveiw but didn't add it because I realized there was a page four and thus forgot it.

I parsed that post badly. Questionable was oj's postless vote. Dramatic was DFN.

I am middle of the road, slightly scummy, on DFN right now because the over-reaction fits 'stereotypical newb town with 3 votes' reaction. It also fits newb scum.

I have no opinion of oj right now, other than that if it is true he just votes without posting in all his games, then he does indeed stink.

@SPAG: I think oman is referring to Nelly's quicklynch comment.

[gorckat]

(This time I caught page 5 before completly composing the post )

Semi-FoS: Hermit

I get the rationale, but your vote isn't going to replace oj.

MOD: Has oj been prodded? Did he tell you he was going to be away? Will he be replaced?

Already started looking for a replacement since yesterday. -Mod

vote: Nelly

Nice jump on volkan's request without any added content. What's up with that? Especially with people (single or plural- I forget how many actually made it official) were suspicious of your quick lynch comment.

Actually, Nelly's comment is only a shade different from The Hermit going after oj...

The roughest thing DFN has done is that misquote. Certainly adds weight to the case against him.

[gorckat]

I don't see the rudeness you describe...he laid into your case and tore apart the verbiage you used, but I don't see where he spoke down to you.

MOD: Thanks

Its all good. -Mod

[gorckat]

Pulse hasn't added much lately... you got anything to add?

Still waiting on Nelly to address my prior post.

[gorckat]

Right...

vote: Nelly632

Clearly I could have been voting for the other Nelly in the game. See ya in a few days, I guess.

[gorckat]

Holy smackerels....real quick and then I'll post again in a bit...

My 'second' vote for Nelly was based on ABR saying, iirc, that votes had to have the person's name spelled correctly. I suppose he could have been joking, but Nelly's flippant self-vote looked to me like he was saying, "Yeah I'll not-vote vote myself, too!" If he didn't say that, then I'm sure its in another game I'm playing and can quote that mod's in-game statement to show where I got the idea (since I haven't looked in this game, yet, and ABR could have edited it into another post)

Also note that I was questioning why he hadn't responded to the quick lynch questions asked of him. I saw him as avoiding direct questioning and felt that was suspect. I was never advocating the quick lynch he says I was hypocritical on.

My comment about seeing him in a few days was regarding his infrequent posting prior to his recent flurry.

I

am

out of town this Saturday through Friday, but I expect to get to an internet cafe at least once, hopefully twice, since I've got 3 games going on.

All that said, I need to read up this day-vig stuff. Just wow.

[gorckat]

Oh, yeah- while I'm re-reading:

unvote

.

[gorckat]

in my mind the people who get really upset are less scummy then the people who take it in stride… Karma Dog once again questions me instead of voting for me, this is a great sign in my eyes…

You contradict yourself mid statement. If CKD was calm, shouldn't he be scummy?

Volkan is definitely mafia if he doesn't dies tonight, though.

WIFOM. The scum can let him go and use that as a reason to lynch him tomorrow.

@volkan: If he convinced you he's a scumbag, why didn't you off him already? If he fell for your trap, shouldn't you feel 100% assured he's dirty?

Are you bandying up support so that when he comes up town you'll still be in the town's good graces?

[gorckat]

Holy crap...I've never seen scum drop day 1 in my games. That's pretty bad-ass.

Now to re-read who defended oman the most...how many times am I gonna have to re-read this game in one day, dammit

[gorckat]

Paradoxombie if Volkan is claiming he is going to kill you do you intend on RC before he does so or are you willing to just take his Day Kill of you without any attempt to sway him?

The only way I can see to sway him is to convince him that someone else is more suspicious than me. But the only person I can see doing that with is Oman, who I've basically already tried to. He thinks I may be his partner anyway, I don't know if anyone else thinks that too, but if they do I may be screwed anyway.

This catches my eye: "...if they do I may be screwed anyway."

If we think you two are partners, and one of you comes up town, doesn't that help you?

Something in there feels like, "Crap- we got caught."

vote: paradoxombie

[gorckat]

xombie's post in isolation from Oman's case against him looked bad, but it does look like Oman was pushing hard for him to go down...

Oman does put pulse up above Elias, who has also registered as scummy...

unvote

Need to go heat up my pizza and sit down 'not working' so I can read some more.

I'm thinking Elias or maybe xombie as lynch targets at the moment.

[gorckat]

That is, Oman said pulse should be vigged over Elias.

[gorckat]

Is that the same ckd that posted the rest of the game? I've been here all along...at the top of this page even!

What makes you think the scum will kill volkan?

[gorckat]

np- there's been a fair amount of dust swirling here and there

What makes you think asking me about asking you why you think volkan won't get NK'd will get an answer

On the level- I'd like you to answer my question first, and Nelly, too. Why is it neccessary to direct a Doctor to protect volkan?

[gorckat]

Um, no. I was suspicious of both of you. Hermit and you were both scummy, however, hermit was at least contributing to the game. by jumping on your wagon I add to the pressure on you and help force you to add content to the game. By jumping on Hermit, i would have done nothing. There would essentially be no pressure on him, and if you turned up scum and I had in the heat of your wagon voted for him instead, it would have appeared that I was simply distracting from your wagon purposefully. Anyhow, I've been around this site a year, and I'm 6-1 as scum. I think of myself as a better player then to just jump on random wagons and hope for a quicklynch.

Your record as scum does not preclude you from being caught out here. Why are you playing to help the town by being afraid of a distancing accusation?

I get that the vote on Nelly leveraged more pressure, but you are the one who keeps bringing up distancing.

[gorckat]

@elias: I concede I may have read/interpreted your posts wrong. When I'm on later tonight, I'll clarify and restate my thoughts on what I called distancing. It was a busy afternoon at work, and I may have had another connection to bring into that post.

@ckd: Thank you. I think the mafia has too much WIFOM at its disposal to kill him.

More to come later- my daughter is usurping me to play Neopets

[gorckat]

By jumping on Hermit, i would have done nothing. There would essentially be no pressure on him, and if you [Nelly] turned up scum and I had in the heat of your wagon voted for him instead, it would have appeared that I was simply distracting from your wagon purposefully.

Sorry if I'm requoting the exact same thing from earlier (I think its just an excerpt of the earlier quote- its been on the clipboard awhile before I finally sat down to break it down)

If Nelly came up scum and you were seen voting Hermit, you'd be looked at as distracting the Nelly wagon. That's what I saw as being afraid of distancing, although distracting is the word you used.

The basic point I tried to make is the same- if you are acting in a manner you believe pro-town, why are you afraid of being called anti-town? By saying a townie should avoid scum tells, you imply they should the do so even if they are convinced that the wrong wagon is being pushed, if making their vote is a scum tell (a distraction).

[gorckat]

All the people who have attacked me attack me under the assumption that the idea theyre attacking is the only reason.

This is no defense unless you show how all 3 things cannot be true at the same time. Then its up to us to decide which exclusive option is most likely.

What it looks like is you have done 3 scummy things and are getting called on them all.

volkan's post makes a great deal of sense, and lays a good case for voting elias. In xombie's favor was oman approving a plan involving his lynch, although oman could have been counting on a townie vig to collapse the plan (which I think volkan has said himself).

[gorckat]

And, the post before that, I used the opportunity to dissuade anyone and everyone from commenting on using NK argument as methods of finding scum -- it is unreliable.

Unless dealing with a claimed scum/jester

@Nelly: I questioned your statement about ckd's reaction (my 11th post). Can you clarify that please?

@elias: I thought you were saying, to paraphrase, 'people are attacking me for 3 reasons as if their reason was the only one' and meant the Nelly vote, Oman's behavior regarding a vig/lynch of you and distancing from xombie.

I just refuted most of his points...could you come up with your own ideas before mirroring someone elses? And especially, at least listen to a persons defense before agreeing with the person attacking them.

volkan has really covered you very well, imo. When I see something, I question it. You've responded to two such instances, iirc:

Why are you playing to help the town by being afraid of a distancing accusation?

and

This is no defense unless you show how all 3 things cannot be true at the same time. Then its up to us to decide which exclusive option is most likely.

(The second being a misread/understanding on my part.)

I have read your defenses. I think they are outweighed by the attack (except for my misread, of course).

On a meta level, is it advisable for a townie lynchee to give "final suspicions"? If they're wrong, the scum can try to support them via NK. If they're right, they can try to debunk them via NK.

[gorckat]

In addition, it would look bad to vote for him with the mounting Nelly wagon anyhow, so I voted Nelly.

You continue to say not looking bad is a reason not to vote someone you are suspicious of.

After voting Nelly, you go round a little with xombie, then address Nelly's suspicions where you first said (as I've quoted before):

and if you turned up scum and I had in the heat of your wagon voted for him instead, it would have appeared that I was simply distracting from your wagon purposefully.

I just don't like the whole 'avoiding scum tells despite suspicions is a good thing'. Townies should play fearlessly.

The extreme loss of temper also doesn't ingratiate me. What you basically said is, 'Reason doesn't work, so let me name call.'

(Very minor sidenote- sorry I haven't been capitalizing the 'E' in Elias. I know it annoys me mildly when I see Gorckat )

vote: Elias_the_thief

@Nelly: I questioned your statement about ckd's reaction (my 11th post). Can you clarify that please?

In my opinion I had already cleared CKD in my mind as being scum so I was not looking for a reaction from him... Being a jerk was a attempt to get a read from people not CKD because I once again felt I had a good enough read on him... I will give you a example of what I was loking for...

A calm person:
"It looks like someone is taking this game a little bit to serious, tossing insults is not going to take the heat off of you"

A not calm person:
"It is funny how someone can contribute nothing to this game, come out here vote for themselves and then call the rest of us foolish. You need to stop being a noob and get replaced instead of being a jerk."

The only distinction between your two examples is one called the other person a jerk.

But what I was questioning is:

in my mind the people who get really upset are less scummy then the people who take it in stride… Karma Dog once again questions me instead of voting for me, this is a great sign in my eyes…

You say calm is good now, but not in your post. You contradicted what you were saying at that time.

[gorckat]

In addition, it would look bad to vote for him with the mounting Nelly wagon anyhow, so I voted Nelly.

You continue to say not looking bad is a reason not to vote someone you are suspicious of.

What part of my previous statements "In addition" and "This was my weakest reason" do you not understand? Despite all my posts on the subject, you still attack this reasoning as if it were the only rationale I used when determining my vote.

After voting Nelly, you go round a little with xombie, then address Nelly's suspicions where you first said (as I've quoted before):

and if you turned up scum and I had in the heat of your wagon voted for him instead, it would have appeared that I was simply distracting from your wagon purposefully.

I just don't like the whole 'avoiding scum tells despite suspicions is a good thing'. Townies should play fearlessly.

Why is that? No one has once explained to me why it is bad for a townie to be consious of appearing protown. My record as town is 1-4, I'm always very concious of appearing town, since I do say badly at it usually. If this is your rationale for lynching me, you had better come up with some reason as to why trying to appear protown is a scummy play.

gorc:Trying to do pro-town things is fine. Not going after suspects because you might be called suspect yourself is what I find disagreeable. That you even considered, "Gee- they'll see this as scummy" is, well- scummy to me.

The extreme loss of temper also doesn't ingratiate me. What you basically said is, 'Reason doesn't work, so let me name call.'

Extreme loss of temper? Reason doesnt work? I hardly call my anger extreme, and I consider it to be well warranted. I only namecalled once, and that was to call vollkan a dumbass over one point. Please do not go over my latest arguments and say "ZOMG! he name called, now i can disregard everything he says. Not once in that post did I abandon reason. How bout actually reading about how it wasnt a contradiction on my part? How bout addressing my arguments?

gorc: dumbass, idiotic accusatins, thickskulled, deaf ears are instances I considered namecalling, since they attack individuals (tangentially on the 2nd item).

Saying you have to get angry to get it through thick skulls seems like simple reason isn't working for you.

vote: Elias_the_thief

And now you vote for me. What are your reasons? You are simply jumping on because you can. First, you have not responded to any of my arguments, and let Vollkan do that work for you. Second, Vollkan hasnt even responded to my most recent proof that I didnt make a contradiction. Thus my first and most prominent reason for making my vote stands. I have no idea why I'm being voted by practically everyone. I want an explanation from Gorkcat and the hermit as to why theyre voting me.

I thought I'd said something like this earlier, but I ahve felt volkan's arguments were stronger than your defenses. A few points you are correct on, such as Hermit's initial vote post saying he wanted oj gone. But the sum total seems to work against you.

The exchange between Oman and volkan seemed to fast and natural to have been any kind of scum gambit.

Also, "practically everyone" sounds like "majority". You have 4 votes. Perhaps majority was not used literally by volkan when he said you 'followed the majority in voting Nelly'? Just noticed that, and trying to get out of work, so I'll leave that to someone else or myself for later.

[gorckat]

Post 133 is me being a prick to see some reactions,

in my mind the people who get really upset are less scummy then the people who take it in stride

… Karma Dog once again questions me instead of voting for me, this is a great sign in my eyes… He has more then enough reasons to vote for me now he could simply say…

“I ask and I ask you simple questions but you refuse to answer so now you leave me no choice but to vote for you Nelly”

But instead he stay patient and gives me some chances to get myself out of hot water, very pro-town move…

In other words, you said calm people are more scummy, but ckd (who reacted calmly) is not.

You later said:

In my opinion I had already cleared CKD in my mind as being scum so I was not looking for a reaction from him... Being a jerk was a attempt to get a read from people not CKD because I once again felt I had a good enough read on him... I will give you a example of what I was loking for...

A calm person:
"It looks like someone is taking this game a little bit to serious, tossing insults is not going to take the heat off of you"

A not calm person:
"It is funny how someone can contribute nothing to this game, come out here vote for themselves and then call the rest of us foolish. You need to stop being a noob and get replaced instead of being a jerk."

What exactly had ckd done prior to this reaction to clear himself in your eyes?

Also...interesting turn of phrase there:

...cleared CKD in my mind as being scum...

Not just 'cleared' or 'cleared of' or even 'as not scum', but "cleared...as being scum".

unvote

[gorckat]

This is no defense unless you show how all 3 things cannot be true at the same time. Then its up to us to decide which exclusive option is most likely.

What it looks like is you have done 3 scummy things and are getting called on them all.

volkan's post makes a great deal of sense, and lays a good case for voting elias. In xombie's favor was oman approving a plan involving his lynch, although oman could have been counting on a townie vig to collapse the plan (which I think volkan has said himself).

How have I "called" Elias? Why do ignore the high possibility that Oman was putting Para first as a distancing move?

Also, Gorckat, what was your basis for voting Elias? (I crossed with you here)

On the 3 scummy things- I misunderstood what he was saying. I thought he was referring to 3 different arguments against him that people were pushing. What he meant, as he later clarified, was 3 reasons for voting Nelly being criticized. I originally said he was being called on them (not just by you) meaning he was being argued with about those three points (not the vote alone).

If you mean 'how have I (volkan) argued against him', you've attacked the reasons for voting Nelly vs Hermit and the Oman distancing/protecting. Those are the two that stand out in my mind and that I can state without re-reading.

I did consider that xombie might have been distanced, but haven't re-read on that. I might have even voted xombie, but pulled off after he made some sense responding to my vote. It is still something I have wanted to look at, but haven't yet.

Do you mean

un

voting Elias, since that is what I think we crossed on? If so, there's a few other connections I'm feeling out, and since you brought it up, I'm gonna be re-reading for any xombie/Oman links.

[gorckat]

And I agreed with his arguments, not the fact that he did anything better than you did. Oman went down fast, the arguments against you came just as fast, and I feel that the game was in a hurry to get where it was going.

Things are slowing down momentum-wise, but not post wise if that makes any sense, and I feel comfortable pulling back and re-reading. There are things left uncovered as yet that were secondary to my feeling the volkan had you pinned down.

You got flustered, which I admit I react to more strongly than I should. I can cite other games where I've done similar when a player loses his cool and gets rude.

Agreed on pulse needing a re-read. He definitely posted in another game today (no idea what or how many times).

[gorckat]

Home. Vacation was good times.

Just posting so ABR doesn't need to replace me (I saw his PMs and he called me out twice in my last ~hour of reading.)

More later. If I ever catch up, assuming 'novels' are still getting posted

[gorckat]

vote: Sir Tornado

A little out of left field, I admit, but he promised us a post 5 days ago at the same time he apologized for lurking for 5 days. He has numerous posts in other games since then.

Comments on the actual events of the last two days shortly. I've read up and want to mull it over for a short bit.

[gorckat]

Yes. A lot of my re-re-reading of the last few days and of individual posters has been of Hermit and xombie.

I'm looking for anything in their posts, as well as other's I've looked at, to guide me under deadline. I want to be as certain as I can before deadline lynching.

My vote on Sir is somewhat 'proddy', but I feel its important to note when people say they'll post and then don't, especially when they're very active elsewhere (as I said above).

One thing that has me leaning towards Hemrit is the 'Lynch All Vanillas' rule of thumb. I've seen it argued over (and have probably been on both sides), but basically, we are likely to hit a townie anyway, and people who claim under pressure don't exactly claim scum.

Beyond that, I want to try to pin down what I expect to learn from anyone's lynch.

[gorckat]

ckd seems to be pushing xombie pretty hard. Makes a big show of leading the town, too.

FOS: ckd

[gorckat]

These are a few of your statements that get my attention as being leading:

TOWN: please go back and read the actual quote placing…you will see para is trying anything to deflect suspicion on himself!

TOWN this is our scum....

By themselves, they are very "appealy" to something (authority, perhaps- I forget all the various sorts of appeals).

Early on, many of your posts were non-commital- calling out lurkers, asking others opinions before giving your own, vote counts. "Helpful" things. Plus your reaction to xombie's slip (I'm not sure of whether it is as big a deal as you make it).

They feel like noob scum to me. Re-reading xombie, Hermit, ckd, Nelly, Oman, Sir Tornado...I'm not convinced that xombie is the lynch for today. Certainly not the way you are.

I'm still poking at Sir Tornado with my vote, atm. I'll be checking in later to see what's what.

[gorckat]

If xombie comes up scum, of course I'd remove any standing vote/FoS.

and another point, how do you know that my pushing for a Para lynch is not pro-town?

Its not?

[gorckat]

vote: curiouskarmadog

[gorckat]

@vollkan: What gives you the impression I might lurk through the deadline?

@ckd: Per an earlier question, yes- I was calling you noob scum.

To you most recent question (vote reasons), I'm surprised no one else commented on your PM to SPAG.

[gorckat]

xombie's at -1 by my count (3 votes since volk quoted the vote count). Given the choice between No-Lynch and Lynch in this situation, I'll always favor lynch and will hammer xombie closer to deadline. We're nowhere near LYLO and it whittles down the suspects, but at the moment, I'm not sure xombie is it.

A decent case

has

been made, but we have a little time.

[gorckat]

For one, looking at why ckd pm'd SPAG.

[gorckat]

ckd: What was your motivation?

[gorckat]

And not pulse?

[gorckat]

unvote

I suppose we can wait for Day 2 to explore it a bit more (if anyone is inclined). I considered the 'PM to a friend' a sign that one (active) scum pmed (a flaky) scum.

The mild reactions by others in the town appease me.

Anyone object to me hammering xombie (aside from xombie, of course )? I'll put it within 24 hours, assuming no objections.

[gorckat]

...and from what i have read on him (I looked through his posts) he is looking like the prime suspect at the moment...

Anything in particular xombie did that got your attention?

[gorckat]

I decided a few hours ago to suspend my promised hammer due to an open question to SPAG, as well as the extension.

Given a replacement, I'll wait another 24 hours (again barring substantive/reasonable objections).

[gorckat]

I thought SPAG's vote was the 5th...

[gorckat]

...and from what i have read on him (I looked through his posts) he is looking like the prime suspect at the moment...

Anything in particular xombie did that got your attention?

[gorckat]

You said you looked at his posts. What did you see.

[gorckat]

Bold is me.

You said you looked at his posts. What did you see.

The particular post I think he is referring to was a skeleton of the case to list in brief the major points that had been raised.

SPAG:and from what i have read on him (I looked through his posts) he is looking like the prime suspect at the moment.

He says he read something that affirmed this opinion. I asked to hear what.

As such, you could hardly expect SPAG to come up with a massive reasoning for his post other than that he saw my points. There was a deadline looming and SPAG voted because Para did seem to have the most backing. Of course, this is a terrible reason in normal circumstances, but the circumstances weren't normal.

If he had said right off "<Someone's> case is good enough for me under deadline" I would've let it slide.

Gorckat. I can't help but notice how lacking in content you have been.
Let's have a look since your return:
#380: Welcome home
#436: Votes tornado for lurking. Say you will comment in a few days
#438: You express a desire to do more reading. Say you like Hermit because of "Lynch all Vanillas" (Note: has ANYBODY else ever heard of "LaV"? Does LaV actually even sound reasonable)

LAV is the idea that if a person has behaved scummily enough to get that many votes, why should a vanilla claim save you? No power role is lost, so its the best worst case scenario (a vanilla gets lynched).

#442: FoS on CKD for "pushing Para" and "leading town"
#447: Vague attacks on CKD for leading. Given the amount of actual hard accusation in this game, I find it very odd that you focus on such trivial things. You don't think para is the lynch. Still want to keep vote on Tornado.

The vote on Tornado was for a specific purpose- to call out his lack of promised posting.

"I'm not convinced that xombie is the lynch for today. Certainly not the way you are. "

That's exactly what I said. I was probably in the 50% range there, where others, and ckd, were (seemingly) at around 100%.

Given the town seemed to be swinging towards xombie anyway, ckd's insistence and over-reaction seemed odd.

#451: You will unFoS CKD if para is scum (an odd thing to say).

Response to a direct question by ckd

#466: Votes CKD with nothing else.

As I said, I felt the PM thing was a slip. I can see where someone might read 'pm your friends' as 'masons and scum talk and get this thing moving'

#479: Asks why I think you will lurk through deadline. Justifies vote by reference to *drumroll* the PM thing.
#482: Again hesistant to lynch para.
#484: Thinks more attention should be paid to the PM (non-)issue
#487: Asks CKD's motivation...Were you expecting CKD to say "Oh, I was just trying to get my scum buddy to play again"?
#489: "Why not pulse?" -> Continuing to drag this thing out

I was trying to isolate why he PM'd SPAG and not pulse. The contents of his PM to SPAG could just as appropriately be directed at pulse. Because ABR is editing his comments into a lot of other posts, I had missed ckd's reasoning- that pulse was due to be replcaed, but SPAG was not.

#494: Unvotes CKD. Declares will hammer in 24 hours.
#501: Seeks SPAG's reasons for voting. Interestingly, Gorckat only quotes SPAG saying Para looks like the prime suspect whilst omitting SPAG referring to the suspicion expressed by other people. This makes it look like SPAG's reasoning was vague when, in fact, SPAG was acting in accordance with what had been suggested by numerous other people in the context of the deadline.

Like I said- I want to hear what he independently sees as the reason.

#506: Has decided to suspend promised hammer (surprise, surprise) because he is trying to question SPAG. (What did SPAG do?) Sets up another 24 hr hammer.

I considered hammering in spite of the extension, but that would not have been fair to Elias, who had said he was going to re-read. I considered posting that I was going to wait, but didn't want to let SPAG that he could not answer my question right away.

Then the extension happened and we got our replacement. I really didn't want to cut them out of any discussion.

#508: Queries my VC stuff-up
#522: Again questions SPAG
#524: Again questions SPAG

Overall:
1) No real comment on anything that happened before return from vacation.
2) Incredily weak accusations against CKD
3) This bizarre inquisition on SPAG
4) Reluctant to lynch Para
5) "Lynch all Vanillas". I've never heard of this before, but any policy to lynch claimed vanillas is just ridiculous.

FoS: Gorckat

Needless to say, if Para comes up scum there is no question of where my suspicion is going to head.

Overall:

1) Fair- I read up and mostly continued in at the point things were.
2) So questioning little things that might lead to big things isn't a good thing?
3) Its not bizarre- if it were anyone besides the person I had thought PMd a scumbud, I wouldn't have thought much of it. But he says he had some thought of his own so I wanted to see it.
4) Reluctant in the sense that I wanted to be as certain as I could we were on the right path. Once ckd had alleviated my concrens over his PM (and no one else seemed interested) I was game for it.
5) Its not lynching him because he claimed vanilla, its because he got himself a numbner of votes and at worse is

just

a vanilla. I could have phrased the original post better to state that was not the only thing leaning me that way.

On the PM thing, I guess if ckd was scum, he'd have to be truly foolish to admit he made the PM publicly. In his place, I'd have PM'd the mod and said "Hey- I misunderstood what you meant and PM'd SPAG".

Stylistically, I do seem to be a 'question and get an answer before commiting' poster. I don't want to lead too much if I have an idea of how certain answers will shade my views, thus dragging certain things out for several posts (Why not pulse?) to try and elicit contradictions.

On preview, SPAG and ckd have posted...

@ckd: Part of my querry to SPAG is because I'm stuck with a possible link between you in my head. At the simplest level, nothing was implied when you prodded SPAG on your own and you did come clean right away, so my suspicions might not go anywhere.

[gorckat]

5) So there really is no such thing as LaV? All you are basically saying is that when someone is at L-1 and they confirm they are not a power role it is safe to hammer.

It was referenced in at least one of the games I'm in or recently completed. I also thought it came up in Mafia Discussion, but it's not the topic of anything on the first 8 pages, so it probably split off of something else.

If I find the exact page of a game it came up in, or a discussion of it, I'll link it for you.

strikes me as you attempting to derail the Para wagon.

Not at all, unless we got a better looking lynch. In order to swing 5 other people a week to deadline, I'd have to find a genuine slip and/or convincing tell that others had missed, which it seems I haven't.

So xombie should swing, hopefully giving us scum.

That being said, I’m not willing to vote and put him to L-1 right now because I don’t think SPAG and gorckat should be let off the hook so easily.

I know why my name would be there, but what has SPAG done? No one else has agreed, and volkan makes a good case for me jumping at shadows.

vote: xombie

I'd be hammering myself today, so if someone else comes along and does it, I'm fine with that.

[gorckat]

I would want Paradox vigged much more then I would want Elias vigged.

I think that Elias is more pro-town then pulse atm.

I understand where you are coming from in regards to pulse; he is very suspicious. Would you prefer that I vig pulse?

Re-reading both Elias and pulse to the point Oman said that, I don't really see what makes Elias more pro-town at that point.

Knowing that xombie was town makes it look a lot more like Oman was protecting Elias.

vote: Elias

[gorckat]

Nice summary Hermit. I think there's two main 'paths' for us to look at: ckd/SPAG and Elias. I trusted that since no one else seemed interested in the PM and ckd leading thing that there wasn't much to it.

[gorckat]

iirc, the 3 names on the list were drawn from the Nelly wagon, weren't they? Oman wasn't just pulling names out of the air.

I was the first to vote, Nelly self-voted, and the names on the list (and Oman himself) all voted Nelly afterwards, with one of them going on after Nelly unvoted, correct?

[gorckat]

Did he? I actually haven't gone back and re-read today. What I remember were comments about other scum being on the Nelly wagon. I really couldn't say.

If he did vote Nelly and you're looking for my thoughts on

why

he did, I'd have to re-read shortly (swamped at work, but still trying to play my games )

[gorckat]

Huh. I need to refresh my memory as to why he listed pulse before adding more speculation today, then.

Last night I was just looking at the posts pulse and Elias had made up to the point Oman made the 'Elias is more town' assertion and it didn't really jive for me.

[gorckat]

Skimming back, it looks like Hermit and xombie were getting on pulse. No one had tagged him as scummy enough for lynch (xombie was getting a load of attention), and volkan hadn't even suggested vigging him before Oman did.

[gorckat]

I am noticing somethings in the reread that I missed before, but need to finish to be sure.

Same here. I'm seeing things that convinced me the first time (that Elias was scum) and they still make good sense (reading Elias' posts alone and the buildup to the Oman vig, for the most part so far).

Elias noting SPAG as town with so little to go on rings like Oman finding Elias town over pulse with me.

[gorckat]

How about posting an entire case instead of bits and pieces? Its hard for me to refute your arguments if you never post them together. Give me one solid case that I can defend myself from.

While going over your posts, I got hung up on the fact that you called Hermit's 101 (iirc) a backtrack and something like a common cum tactic/move when caught, but didn't get back to him after unvoting Nelly. I also got stuck on "pressure" and why it made sense to vote Nelly when you did, but not unvote when he was at -1.

Going over it all again (loads to read, as you know ) I'm again satisfied with your answers to those questions.

What I'm stuck on is Oman's actions- the list ordering and declaration that you were more town than pulse. Since there's no way to get Oman's input on them, I'm inclined to go with my gut on how it makes you look.

[gorckat]

Skimming back to Elias' player reviews (in two posts):

SPAG: All his posts have given me a town feel, though no one post stands out. Official Opinion: Town

9 posts, all brief (~3-5 sentences each)

SirTornado: None of his posts seem scummy to me. His posts agree with many of mine, and he seems to have town's best interest at heart. Official Opinion: Probably Town

8 posts, including a long review of action at the tail end of the DFN action, some short

Pulsewidth: Um, barely enough posts to analize. Official Opinion: Undecided, slightly scummy looking

8 posts, 2 very long

Even though he agrees with Sir T, he can't pin him down as town as solidly as SPAG, who didn't have as much content as pulse, whom he said he didn't have enough to get a read on?

[gorckat]

You're coming from the assumption that I base all of my opinions on amount and length of posts, which is ridiculous.

I'm not coming to that conclusion, you lead me there:

Pulsewidth: Um, barely enough posts to analize. Official Opinion: Undecided, slightly scummy looking

He was within one post of two players that you felt town. One of those players had contributed very little, as Hermit pointed out. It appears that you wanted SPAG cleared and pulse not.

It's a little thing that makes Oman's list look like a cover for you.

I might be inclined to vote for SPAG today, over Elias. I concede a small chance (say less than 20%) that Elias is town, in which case SPAG's own apparent guilt just happens to put Elias in a bad light.

[gorckat]

Honestly, I feel an urge to vote him, even though I replaced him.

I've seen this in other games. I'm curious if it has been a town or scum tell. I checked 3 or 4 games with confirmed scum who were replaced, but none of them said this (at least one was a early Day 1 replacement).

If anyone else has seen a similar statement where the player's role is known, I'd dig knowing just for reference.

[gorckat]

I'm really surprised by it, as well, because my actions got a few people's attention Day 1. I expected more commentary than (basically) "Nuetral".

Was that our surprise?

I can see how a replacement, knowing for certain the alignments of others, could unconsciously 'pre-determine' their read of a person and conflict with the 'established' perception.

Of course, it could be that fresh eyes see what their is...in my case, not scum

[gorckat]

I've also expressed interest in voting Yagami, so it could be considered -1.5.

I've re-read a few nifty tidbits, so I need to look back before I commit. Sitting cozily on Elias based on Oman's list and xombie's affiliation.

[gorckat]

That, too. We've had nowhere near the talk of Day 1. We might not need as much (assuming no further replacements and absences), but I have no desire to end it so fast.

I feel like things are starting to pick up again.

[gorckat]

Gorckat

hmmm, another one I am back and forth on. Couple things early on had me feeling that Gorckat is scum.

(1)

In Post 84, Oman gave Gorckat his seal of approval (for really no reason). Go back and read the argument (starting 80) knowing that oj was town and Oman was scum. Votes nelly 106 and revotes nelly 126 and goes on vacation.

(2)

Personally I hate it when people vote and let us know they are leaving. So when the get back if someone has hung, they can always fall back on, well, I couldn’t removed my vote because I was gone. 9 posts later Oman puts Nelly at –2. Gorckat comes back from vacation post 181.

(3)

(187) Gorckat challenges vollkan’s vig claim and town status. This rubbed me the wrong way, and still does.

(4)

Post 197, puts Para at –2, but then unvotes (199) reasoning was strange.

(5)

213, questions why mafia would kill vollkan (this was obvious, thought this was a strange question).

(6)

15, ask Nelly why it is important to direct a doctor to protect vollkan, (again what)?

Votes Elias at 268 (again –2) removes vote on 280 (not 270 as my pbp says) Gorckat sort of falls off my radar at this point.

(7)

(442) FoSes me for “making a big show” about pushing the Para lynch. (443) I ask why he is FoSing me, almost appears that Gorckat knows Para’s alignment (retrospect) sort of beats around the bush for a couple posts when I ask him why my pushing for Para’s lynch is not pro town?

(8

)

Gives me some sort of answer (451). “its not?”?

Post 482, says he will hammer Para is needed. (533) gorckat puts Para at –1. Hasn’t done too much since the NK. When seems to keep an attack on Elias and SPAG.

You know after writing this out and rereading it..you do look pretty scummy. When I started this post (on you) I thought maybe I would end up arguing that you were more neutral than anything (scum and town moves balancing each other out)…but now, I think you might be scum…Rating 7

1) He could have done so because I pushed back and he knew I was town.

2) I truly expected to be able to post while away. I posted that intent in at least one of my other games, maybe both of them,

3) I challenged him because he said he had trapped someone. If he was scum, I would have expected him to hesitate because he would know he was lying.

4)

xombie's post in isolation from Oman's case against him looked bad, but it does look like Oman was pushing hard for him to go down...

I wanted to step back and re-read and take stock of Oman's list and the suspects.

5) Lots of WIFOM before the town if they don't kill him. The mafia in another game were actually going to let a claimed doc live Night 1, but a vig took him out (multiple people thought him scum, but not lynch worthy)

6) Second time a role not in this game was brought up. The question was a trappy one, hoping sloppy scum would imply they were a doc.

7) You have yourself admitted a very high certainty that xombie was scum. I wasn't as convinced as you were, so I FoS'd you.

8

) Again, a trappy sort of response. Ham-fisted and fired off fast. I focused on you're phrasing (you asked how I

knew

it wasn't pro-town, not why I

thought

it wasn't)

I don’t like how this SPAG wagon is just flying by at warp speeds. Currently neither gorckat or hermit are on those wagons. Though Gorckat has stated that he might be putting SPAG to –1. Once I state we should not exceed –1, he mentions that he has no desire to end the day so fast…

I am very sure of my vote on Elias right now. I have no doubt someone will see what I have seen and affirm the connections I see. Which way that connection leads (town or scum) I'm not sure.

I posted reaffriming my previous interest in Yagami and that my leanings could lead me to vote. You immediately said please don't. I said ok. If you look at those three posts like that, not so bad, huh?

[gorckat]

well, here is my problem...top three are Yagami/gorckat/hermit...

No response to my post responding to your case (even if its only "I don't buy it")?

I'd still much rather lynch hermit then yagami...

Not surprising, since I'm inclined to think you two are partners.

[gorckat]

I was directing it at Yagami, although I suppose I can now ask it of gorckat as well.

If you mean this:

Not surprising, since I'm inclined to think you two are partners.

I meant Elias/Yag.

[gorckat]

@ckd: Indeed. I thought you and I were getting a dialog going, and Elias and I think at least one other person are absent on some promised posts.

Setael, Elias is right, just because he isn't voting me doesn't mean he thinks I'm town, just that he doesn't think I'm scum.

That makes no sense.

In this setup, if he thinks you're not scum, then he thinks you're town.

Is Yag still at -1?

MOD:

Votecount, please.

[gorckat]

My death constitutes a near LYLO situation tomorrow.

We have 4 Townies, 2 Masons, 1 Scum left. Worst Case scenario, we have 4 good guys and 1 scum tomorrow. Then the town can still lynch wrong and go into a 2-1 endgame.

Hardly a 'near LYLO situation'.

[gorckat]

Skimming new posts and this jumped out at me:

That being said, I support and will vote Elias or Gorckat (I think our last scum is in that pair)

Really? Is there any other reason to lynch someone (being scum)?

[gorckat]

Seemed like you were telling yourself by telling us. SPAG/Yag's being scum did make me go back to the whole PM issue, but I let it go again since you hammered Yag, didn't you?

@Hermit: Maybe he hit on something that was close to home? I haven't gone back to his posts just yet. I was focusing on the dead scum and remaining living players in my reading yesterday.

[gorckat]

Skimming new posts...

I'm at work. I'm checking in to games as I can. Reading is easy. Commenting on a single, little, weird, thing is easy. Breaking out an in depth analysis of analysis ain't so easy.

Without looking back to Yag's lynch and its timing, one thing I was waiting for was a cue that some of the connections I'd made on people's affiliations was correct, though early day 3, I think I may have been wrong on who was with whom.

And if I feel there is a case to be made, I will make it. I have to go back over Shanba's ideas and re-read you (again).

Right now, Elias is still my number one suspect. Actual (unstated on Day 3, obv) case aside, it seems to me he'd be a big distraction the next two potential days. I don't see us clearing him to the point that we are ever comfortable going in another direction.

[gorckat]

why even add this last part? What are you saying? Seems to me, that you are indicating we get rid of elias because he might be scummy, but even if he isnt, he will distract us the next two days while we look for scum.

Yes, that's what I said:

1) He seems like scum
2) If he's not, he still seems like it
3) If we're wrong lynching him, we have still improved our position

First of all, I think I would like to lynch scum today thanks...

Yes- you've said who you'd like to lynch (because the scum are among them)

second, I am not in the business of jumping on a bandwagon because someone is distracting...

Never said it should be the sole reason- its supplemental to an actual case (that I'll post later when I, you know, have time to gather posts and ideas)

clearly I am not distracted that much, I am suspicious of Elias, but not distracted. Some people would say I was distracting...someone might argue hermit was...will you use the same arguement tomorrow as well?

I didn't say he'd be distracting now, but the next two days when things tighten up. This goes a little against the grain of my 'hardly near LYLO' point with Elias earlier: As we get closer to the end, we must be more certain of our lynches since each one is potentially more damaging.

Looking forward (assume you lynch me, since that's where your vote- everyone can assume their own target for this 'exercise'), is there anyone you'd be more certain of Day 4 than Elias? Day 5, when its 2 on 1?

I don't think the game is hopeless tomorrow (which is how I read Elias trying to spin his 'near LYLO' comments), but it will be harder if people that have been highly suspected are still around.

Its the inverse of scum offing the most townie people. They kill those most confirmed (in the absence of power roles) to make it harder for the town. In general, we should lynch the scummiest to make it harder for them to put others in a bad light.

Elias should be lynched if he is the scummiest, not

just

because he has been suspected in the past.

[gorckat]

I have two questions now. They can't be answered definitely, but I want people to think about them:
Why would Oman want Pulse vigged over Elias?
Why would Oman want Pulse killed before Para?
Why did Oman support a "plan" which did not result in Elias dying at all?

Three questions actually. And I have no idea. Thats why I feel this is the only good evidence you have against me.

This screws us if we're town too. I'm betting the town decides to lynch me, finds I'm town, proceeds to lynch para ( i dunno his alignment) and if he's town, suddenly the town just had two mislynches.

Yes, it screws you if you are town; but you are ignoring the fact that Oman favoured keeping you (and Para) alive.

I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm saying it screws me as town as well.

Oman could very easily have rejected my "plan" and then criticised me for making such a ridiculous suggestion. Instead, he approved it.

There was no advantage in Oman approving the plan if Elias, Para and Pulse are all pro-town. Indeed, in such a case there was only disadvantage insofar as he would look scummy for supporting it.

The only means by which supporting the plan would be desirable would be in keeping his scum buddies alive. Otherwise, he would be doing something ridiculously scummy when it offered him no advantages and substantial disadvantages and opportunity costs (the opportunity being the chance to criticise me).

I never attacked you here. It's the only evidence I will accept without a fight. Why do you keep bringing it up?

I still think Oman’s list is key.

Yes, it screws you

[Elias]

if you are town; but you are ignoring the fact that Oman favoured keeping you (and Para) alive. Oman could very easily have rejected my "plan" and then criticised me for making such a ridiculous suggestion. Instead, he approved it. There was no advantage in Oman approving the plan if Elias, Para and Pulse are all pro-town. Indeed, in such a case there was only disadvantage insofar as he would look scummy for supporting it. The only means by which supporting the plan would be desirable would be in keeping his scum buddies alive. Otherwise, he would be doing something ridiculously scummy when it offered him no advantages and substantial disadvantages and opportunity costs (the opportunity being the chance to criticise me).

I very much agree with this entire post, and if it is true then Elias is scum.

Alright. Youre claiming that Oman has no advantage from doing this. Dont you see this is completely wifom? If everyone thinks that, thinks im scum because of it, and mislynches me, theres his advantage right there. I mean, I could easily combat what youre saying with "itd be dumb for scum to put his buddy last, because it would get his buddy lynched" but cant you see how thats equally wifom? The whole fucking list is wifom.

Oman brings Pulse into it (I never mentioned Pulse, nor did anyone else) and says Pulse looks more pro-town than Elias (implying strongly that he favoured Pulse's vigging). It would be very odd for Oman to do this if both Pulse and Elias are pro-town or if Pulse is scum and Elias is torn. This only makes sense if Oman is trying to protect Elias.

Again, wifom.

Again, I have no idea why he would say that. All I know is that I am town and he was scum. I dont know what else to say about this particular piece of evidence.

I think he knew there was no way to explain his way out of that. Sounds like scum trying to get the subject dropped. I really don't think oman would've given 3 Townie names on his list. I think he gave 2 town names (me and Para) and one scum - Elias, last on the list. If Elias is scum, it definitely makes sense that he'd much rather have seen Pulse (now me) vigged than Elias.

I really,

really

,

really

hate arguments like this. Let me ask you this; does a townie like being lynched? No, they dont. So, wouldnt you get the exact same argument out of a townie defending himself if he faces something he cant explain? I mean, I didnt make the list. I cant explain as town or scum. This argument doesnt make me any alignment at all, so stop pretending that what you think it sounds like is automatically what it actually is.

Elias is still my front-runner for suspicion, mostly for the reasons that Setael went into concerning vollkan's dissection of Oman's list. His Nelly vote may have a townie explanation, but it's hard to defend against what seems to be scum sticking their neck out on his behalf.

So most of your suspicions on me are based on an interpretation of an entirely wifom issue? honestly, its like, the definition of wifom. its like this:
"he obviously would put one scum on, cuz whats his advantage otherwise?"
"ah, but what if he knows that we'd think that, and do it so as to set up a lynch of 3 innocents?"
"ah, but he would know that we would know that he would actually have an advantage from putting three innocents on a list"
and so on and so forth. This argument is so BS its not even funny.

Re-reading Elias, I noticed this shift- Oman's list was volkan's only piece of undisputed evidence, but since then Elias has blasted everyone else trying to use it.

There might be other mentions of it, but these were culled from Elias' posts alone right before I punch out at work.

[gorckat]

Heh- what a cross post

[gorckat]

Hat trick and not neccesarily game related:

Also, Hermit, did you notice how I didnt swear? When people simply ask me questions, then I know that they will listen to my answers. Its only when I feel that people are not listening to what I'm saying that I'm forced to throw in some language to turn some heads.

That seems a bit immature, but we can hash that out post game, in GD or via PM or never. Just my two cents.

[gorckat]

I was hoping the masons would make it till tomorrow and would be able to help us forc a win

I think the other one

should

claim now: It will help the rest of the town by narrowing down suspects now. We can work with a field of 4 rather than 6 (or 5, since ckd is out already).

As for Elias forgetting only one scum was left, I directed a lynch of a player in a game who thought we had lynched scum, leading him to post failing LYLO math, so its not impossible for him to forget only one is left. It seems it is

possible

as far as mistakes go.

That said, I do find it

very

hard to believe given that he has protested the use of Oman's list against him and questioned the lynch of SPAG, both quite confirmed scum.

Hermit's reaction could be read as scum playing townie, same as Nelly.

That said,

FoS: Elias

, just to be clear that is where my vote is going closer to deadline.

[gorckat]

this is why I feel gorckat is scummy...he was "hoping the masons could make it." yet he wants the other one to claim....dont worry about the other mason..THE OTHER MASON SHOULD NOT CLAIM!

Here's the thing...what makes a mason useful to the town? That they have buddies who are confirmed and that they can share ideas with.

If you get NK'd tonight, which makes sense for the scum, what can your buddy do? If he makes it to LYLO, he claims, the scum claims mason and the third wheel has to figure out who to believe based on how they treated you all game and volkan Day 1.

If the other mason claims now, we have absolutely confirmed two townies today and at least one tomorrow.

If the mason has breadcrumbed somethign they can point to to confirm their role later, then stay hidden in that case, of course.

[gorckat]

At endgame, a lone mason is just a townie.

I've never played a game with masons, so if I'm running against some universal, established truth let me know.

I guess if we're willing to let the possibility of competing claims exist, then let them stay hidden.

[gorckat]

Speaking of which- when you reanalyzed things, did you consider my responses to your Day 2 case against me? Yag got hammered pretty quick after you said you would, iirc.

[gorckat]

vote: Elias

[gorckat]

Basically (and very briefly- I'm leaving work to pick up my wife and daughter):

His last post is, essentially, him givng up, flipping us all the middle finger and is an appeal to emotion. I have no problem with Elias outside this game. I have no idea if hes acted like this outside this game.

But in

this

game, I'm done, too. I'm no paragon of scumhunters, so maybe I do suck, but this town is the one he was dealt, so deal with it.

I do feel like he's made some odd mistakes and has backtracked on the Oman list from good evidence to WIFOM. He didn't see it was WIFOM when he was breaking every other thing down?

He cleared SPAG but couldn't read pulse?

Its a lot of circumstantials that make him the best choice, imho, for today.

If

we're wrong, we don't have to WIFOM out why the scum didn't kill him tomorrow.

I can respond to any other specific questions later, but I gotta roll right now.

[gorckat]

I have only a few minutes and no time to look at specific posts referenced.

On Oman's seal of approval, I think I said earlier he could have just been easier to convince knowing I'm town.

Though para was town, Gorc did in fact attempt to move pressure to CKD (mason).

I'm either contradicting myself here adn using a defence Elias used (and that I didn't buy for one reason or another) or I'm thinking of a situation that came up recently in another game, but that seems to make a good case for me not being scum. Since I could so easily hammer on the wagon most everyone else bought, why didn't I?

Further, another proven scum, yagami light, says that theres nothing really scummy or protown about gorc, which I found surprising.

That surprised me as well adn i posted about it, iirc.

Do I think he's the best lynch candidate right now? yes. Do I know he's a lot better then myself? Hell yes, I'm town.

Ditto re:You.

that being said, I think i would like Gorckat to hang today.

Have you rebutted my rebuttals to your last case, yet? Even a "I think they were crap" would be appreciated. Unless you acknowledged it last page (I haven't flipped back since checking the new posts since my last adn don't think you responded there).

I'll be on later tonight and will address specific posts that were referred to and any new questions.

[gorckat]

By the way...Bah! Go town!

[gorckat]

Go town! Good catch, Set! Did you use 'affiliation' when you replaced pulse on purpose? That was what I was looking to confirm Day 2/3 when I was convinced Elias was scum on Oman's list. You said something like 'knowing pulse's affiliation'. I took that as a breadcrumb and was trying to just get the word thrown back at me.

And I'd like my crow pie with Cool Whip, Elias :p I don't think I've ever been more stubbornly wrong about something.

[gorckat]

I enjoyed watching after my death. The accelerating deadline kept the pace up.