Mini 471: End.

[Patrick]

CTD is scum in this game, I'm pretty sure of it.

Vote: CrashTextDummie

[Patrick]

Hmm, ok. I didn't see any problem at all with someone putting a third vote on Adel. Even the fourth one is no big deal with 7 to lynch. How does putting 4 votes on indicate a desire to quicklynch someone? A quicklynch hardly seems likely.

@Kravhen: I hate it when people do scummy stuff to see how others would react because I sometimes get the sneaking suspicion that they were actually doing scummy stuff for the sake of doing scummy stuff.

I agree with the principal, but I'm not convinced that's what we had here. Exactly how scummy is it to add a 4th vote with 7 to lynch? What were the chances of a speedlynch? It seemed like an ok way to get reactions to me. I can't bring myself to get too worked up about it.

[Patrick]

Did I miscount? I thought he only put you at lynch-3.

[Patrick]

This game has progressed pretty quickly. I'll catch up tomorrow and see how juicy it is. Also nice to see CTD has joined us <3

[Patrick]

Bleh. There isn't as much scummy behaviour as I might have expected from the 6 pages that had appeared. I am just a little uncomfortable with pickem's overt spamming and chumminess which seems a bit too prolonged, even though he has posted content since.

I don't get any particular scumvibe from kravhen. The only thing that could be has already been pointed out; The Unvote of Adel because some people seemed to be waiting for it. But overall impression of him is fine.

Sir Tornado, you are currently not voting anyone. So how suspicious are you of kravhen? You've put a fair amount of effort into attacking him, and you think he's contradicted himself several times. Is that enough for a vote at this early stage? It kind of feels like you're waiting to see whether people will agree with you before you commit to voting him.

Every action in this game can be, by some way or another classified as a scum tell. What one has to do is to select the stronger scum tell from the others and concentrate on it.

I don't see this. Everything can be classified as a scumtell in some way?

Since I don't really like his attack on krahven I'll

Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado.

Seems a bit better than my random vote on CTD, though I was tempted to leave it there until he posts some content. *Pokes*

[Patrick]

lol, that's a funny thing to say. So do you believe he's scum or will he just drop scumtells?

[Patrick]

IGMEOY: Patrick - If you are scum, you have already lost this game. Mark my words.

Then I must be thankful that I'm not scum. In all seriousness, this is an odd thing to say. I hope you will be explaining that and your certainty on Blue Zebra before you leave for your holiday.

Posting this while half asleep, will address anything else later.

[Patrick]

kravhen - why are you speculating on who the cop might be?

[Patrick]

Huh? I just commented on it by asking you why you're speculating in thread as to who a possible cop might be. I'm not going to discuss whether or not I think it was a cop hint if that's what you mean. We should be hunting scum not poweroles.

[Patrick]

It's the second time someone has said something to me this game that seemed a bit odd (first time being CTD's cryptic "If you're scum you've already lost"). Albert, some people do tend to find that. But I don't see what I've done to look especially town in this game. I haven't said that much yet.

[Patrick]

A handful of thoughts on a few players.

I echo what one or two people said that Albert seems more passive than usual. He's made some joke posts and asked alot of questions. His thoughts on quicklynching made sense, but I'll keep an eye on him.

I'm meh overall on CTD's case against Blue Zebra. One thing I can see is that it doesn't seem at all like Blue Zebra's camisade vote was a joke vote. It came after Blue Zebra had already random voted two other players, and it came just 7 minutes after camisade had posted, "I'm not going to vote until we have a good reason for suspicion." Why did you choose to make this joke vote exactly?

I can't bring myself to care that much about his vote for pickemgenius, given that I also picked up on pickem's active lurking. It's certainly not as though Blue Zebra was the only one going after lurkers. I'm fairly neutral on Blue Zebra. His playstyle doesn't seem to have changed since last time.

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, kravhen seems like a very enthusiastic new player. I think I might be always slightly swooned by people who make long posts and seem to be putting in tons of effort, but he seems pretty genuine to me, despite dropping one or two tangible scumtells. If he's newbiescum, he's very bold; I've not seen many who play in a way that they know will attract so much attention early on. If he's scum, we'll have a load of useful material to use later. At the moment, I don't think he is.

Probably the two people I'm most suspicious of right now are Sir Tornado and Adel. I won't make a big list because too many people would be too close together.

[Patrick]

I think Adel is overstating a bit the, "Blue Zebra needs to post more content". I don't think he is undercontributing that much at all, and there are worse offenders.

Albert, mind explaining why you made post 192? It seemed to come out of nowhere.

[Patrick]

... When I get lynched it's because I acted scummy, or at least enough people thought so. Same as for anyone right?

[Patrick]

Patrick is giving me funny feelings in this game, and it's not the good kind. I find it somewhat amusing that ABR would mention how Patrick always seems town (which is true most of the time), yet he doesn't seem like town in this game, at least not to me. That's not to say that he feels like scum either, but he's not oozing townliness like he usually does (which is in virtually every game he is town in). I find him to be somewhat subdued in his approach so far, and not as sharp in his analyses as usual. Keep a close eye on him, please.

I don't fully agree with the meta, although I can see where you're coming from. Not every game where I've been protown have I "oozed townliness". I have afterall been lynched twice as town, for playing badly and going after the wrong people among other things. There are others where I've not been lynched but didn't look all that protown either. I agree I've been semi lazy in this game so far. If you were voting or FoSing me for this, I'd probably accuse you of some kind of logical fallacy (burden of...?). Thanks for explaining it though.

[Patrick]

Welcome to the game Haut Boy. What do you think of kravhen?

On Albert, I've seen his as significantly active as town and scum, but upon looking at one or two other games, I've also seen him doing the zzz thing as town. So there's probably not too much in it, except that he needs to say stuff.

[Patrick]

Lol, I thought from the explosion that stuff had happened. I agree this argument seemed blown out of proportion. DS will be expected to post content when she get's back, if she doesn't we pressure her or get a replacement. Easy. (Which is basically what pickem said). I don't think the FoS was warranted.

One thing I noticed was that CrashTextDummie didn't talk about kravhen or anyone around that issue at all when he was here. He just attacked Blue Zebra and dingled around with me a bit. It's unlike him to not comment on what was arguably the biggest issue in the thread. That's partly why I'm trying to get something out of Haut Boy on that.

[Patrick]

Hi voidycakes. Bring us some excitement <3

[Patrick]

Answering prod. Late now, but I'll do at least some reread tomorrow since we're deadlined.

I believe that SV hasn't posted any content since arriving. Maybe the idea of having NabNab replace back into his original role isn't a bad one.

[Patrick]

I dont understand... didn't NabNab ask to be replaced? Why was he replaced in the first place if people are talking about bringing him back now?

He went on vacation for a while. Now he's back.

Besides that, hello patrick, its been a while. Who would you lynch? The person(s) you are most comfortable lynching?

I'll get to those tomorrow (real life day not game day). It's the middle of the night here.

[Patrick]

Heh, welcome back NabNab.

Deadscilent, why the sudden suicidal urges? It's bad sportsmanship regardless of your role.

On the issue of the deadscilent wagon, I'm not entirely happy with it. I'll just take a look at some of these latest votes:

Adel votes Deadscilent in post 340, claims that his giving up post is the only reason. Adel, why do you think such giving up would be more likely to come from scum than town? I've seen both scum and town just give up, but in my experience a newbie who says, basically, "Haha when I turn up town you'll know I was right and i'll be laughing at you" is more likely to be a stupid townie than scum.

Haut Boy voted in post 345, no reason given for hopping onto the biggest bandwagon in the game. Mind explaining this one?

Kravhen has also voted Deadscilent, and to him I ask similar questions to those I asked Adel. Do you think giving up is more likely to come from scum or town? And why?

Mod

can we get a votecount please?

[Patrick]

Is it common practice to have jesters in a mini normal?

Heh, dunno if this was serious, but no, Jester is an extremely rare role, and I wouldn't be expecting one in a mini normal.

[Patrick]

Mod: I would like to respectfully request a deadline extension. I don't think the town is at a decision making stage right now.

Definitely seconded.

Blue Zebra seems to be being called scummy frequently, and I wonder if I'm just missing something obvious that others are seeing. A quick glance at another game where he was town doesn't turn up any obvious differences in posting style, and I don't really find anything he's said to be scummy, so I'm not seeing it personally.

For 16 pages, this game doesn't have that much content, so I can agree with NabNab that we're not close to reaching a consensus. I haven't really seen a reason to remove my vote from Sir Tornado, but Adel is starting to catch up with him; she seems pretty oppotunistic in this game, especially the previous DS vote with the stated reasoning that DS was trying to act cute (which I don't agree with and seems a stretch). I hope Atticus will clarify soon what he's doing, if the deadline stands we'll have to place our votes fairly quickly, and possibly make compromises. If we need more than two people asking for an extension then I expect others to do it.

[Patrick]

Deadline closing in. I think I prefer a Sir Tornado lynch to an Haut Boy lynch, so I'll keep my vote where it is. As it is, Haut Boy would be lynched if deadline hit us now. I don't see any particularly special case against Haut Boy though.

[Patrick]

I do not support a Sir T lynch. Saying that he's a dangerous mafia player, his allusions to past plays, his comparisons, I don't find it scummy. I don't buy this lynch one bit.

I don't find the part about him being dangerous mafia scummy either (though obviously referring to ongoing games is a bit off). But I think it's kind of misrepresenting the wagon to say it's because of that.

Adel is also pretty scummy. I did hesitate on this a few days ago but there's seems to be too much jumping around from her based on not very good reasoning. I could actually see her as scum with Sir Tornado.

After preview:

Pat-- not posting very much

I bet you can hardly keep a straight face when you accuse someone else of not contributing enough Numerically I suppose you have more posts than me, but a good percentage of your posts are spam.

[Patrick]

Done a votecount, for convenience. I've used the mods votecount before the last one as the guide, since last one was wrong.

Votecount

Adel (1): Albert B. Rampage
Sir Tornado (5): Patrick, Nabakov, Blue Zebra, kravhen, Erotomachia
Albert B.Rampage (1): camisade
Haut Boy (2): deadscilent, pickemgenius
Patrick (1): Adel

Not Voting (4): Haut Boy, Sir Tornado
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

Albert, after doing that, I agree with you actually. I don't see Adel and Sir Tornado as scum together. In that case I'd have expected Adel to try and keep up the pressure on Haut Boy rather than unvoting him.

[Patrick]

Dang, Adel messed it up by getting in first with that unvote and new vote. Why did you random vote me in the first place?

[Patrick]

Meh I hate deadlines. I think we have hardly anytime left.

[Patrick]

Eroto: What do you think of the fact that Sir Tornado isn't voting a this point?

[Patrick]

Well, my opinion is already that she's somewhat scummy. What bothers me is that I have to go to bed (like very soon), and I'm worried if we try a stampede on Adel, or anyone else for that matter, we could get stuck no lynching. I'm also not sure that she looks worse than Sir Tornado.

[Patrick]

OK, let's see where it goes.

Unvote, vote: Adel.

I make that 3 on her and 4 on Sir Tornado. Anyone else switching votes, remember not to create a no lynch.

[Patrick]

Meh. It worries me that neither of our likely lynch candidates has claimed. But yeah, it's nearly 3 am so I can't hang about any longer. Just whatever you guys do, make sure someone is at 4 votes or more when the day ends.

[Patrick]

When I went to bed after my exchange with ABR, I was thinking may be Patrick is scum (because Patrick voted me for an extremely silly reason -- that I was not voting anyone -- and kept his vote there),

Misrepresentation of why I voted you. I didn't, and still don't like your attack on kravhen. I also don't think you've been very constructive since then.

The fact that you weren't voting until very recently is interesting. I found that to be odd play from you regardless of alignment, but even moreso if you're scum, in which case I'd expect you to have been voting someone in an attempt to save yourself. Haut Boy would have been the obvious counterwagon most of the way, after that Adel would have been the obvious counterwagon, but you've voted neither. If you turn up scum at some point, I'd look back over this and wonder why you didn't further the Haut Boy wagon to save yourself, and one reason could be that you two are scum together, although that assumes we've been good enough to get two scum wagoned right near the end (and then bad enough to let them both off). But your lack of self preservation here strikes me as slightly townish. I think we've lynched Adel, and the fact that we didn't get a claim still bothers me. But I guess we're stuck with it now.

[Patrick]

Hmm. Not a very successful first day. I was suspicious of Sir Tornado yesterday, but after some of his posts very late on yesterday, I'm not even confident in that impression anymore either, and I never really felt the case against Haut Boy so I think I'll have to reread. Hopefully the knowledge of Adel and kravhen being town will help that.

[Patrick]

Was, for large parts of the game convinced that I was scum, on reasons I thought were very feeble.

Not true at all. I don't remember ever saying I was convinced you were scum, nor were the reasons feeble.

In the same post, he calls Adel's jumping bandwagons scummy, and raises the possibility of me being scum with her. This, I part, I do find scummy. In fact, I find any and all suggestions of Adel being scum because of her vote hopping extremely scummy. That provides perfect opportunity for the scum to jump her the action is not actually scummy, but everyone thinks it is, and hence provides an ideal opportunity for people to jump on the Adel wagon. I am surprised Patrick would think of that kind of vote hopping as scummy.

The action of vote hopping isn't scummy in itself usually. I said that I didn't like her reasons for voting people. Right now, I don't think I can remember a vote she made that I agreed with, and I disliked the way she seemed to predict kravhen would be the lynch from an early stage, especially when I found him to be somewhat protown. I also pointed to her DS vote that I didn't like.

In post 500, Patcrick votes for Adel, despite having said earlier that he finds me scummier. Why?

Some of your late actions yesterday put me in real doubt about my suspicion of you. I thought you weren't really playing in self preservation which is how scum play, remember I talked about that in my post 31.

If you could make an effort not to keep misrepresenting me, that would be cool.

[Patrick]

That is WIFOM. I could be not playing for self preservation to make you think I am not scum, and could, in fact be scum. Not playing for self preservation is not a town tell at all. Depends a lot on the player. Many townies play to desperately survive as much as scum.

This is an incorrect use of WIFOM. If you think that is truly WIFOM, you could apply WIFOM to almost anything. Obviously scum can act in weird ways to try and confuse us, but the whole point of the game is to look for things that are more commonly done by scum than by town, and look for tendencies in people's play.

Very broadly, the objectives of a protown player are 1) To catch scum. 2) To not be lynched, with number 1 being the most important. The objective of a scumbag is merely to avoid being lynched. So it follows logically that scum are more likely to care about self preservation than town. I'm not saying a town player won't be interested at all in staying alive of course.

[Patrick]

Hitting preview, I can see that Patrick has posted a defense, but it focuses more on the extraneous and the theoretical than the hop itself.

I don't know what you mean. I thought I explained as clearly as is possible why I made that hop: I thought Adel was scummier than Sir Tornado at that point, and getting her lynched seemed realistic. I've also explained why I thought Sir Tornado was looking more innocent. What else would you be looking for?

[Patrick]

I did explain the reasons yesterday, though I admit maybe I didn't explain them that well.

[Patrick]

If Sir Tornado is scum, Albert is probably his scumbuddy. If Sir Tornado is town, it wouldn't make sense that scum-Albert would make an effort to get Adel lynched when he could've just let Sir Tornado get lynched.

I agree that if Tornado is town, Albert doesn't stand out as scummy, he could have just sat back and watched him die rather than going to all the trouble of switching the wagon to Adel. Even if Tornado turns out to be scum, I wouldn't rush to crucify Albert. It would be a very bold scum move to try and create a counterwagon so late in the day to save a scumbuddy, with a high chance of failing, then backfiring and getting Albert into trouble as well. Of course, he is a somewhat reckless player from what I've seen.

Sir Tornado is being cryptic in post 553, though his posts today seem townish overall. He's questioning my reasons for laying off him (albeit wrongly calling them WIFOM). I'd say scum would be less likely to do that than town -- scum would probably just move on, happy that I've backed off. His posts today seem genuinely inquisitive.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I'm also here. Will have to get to this one soon. Just letting you know I haven't vanished.