Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[Muerrto]

Vote: Plessiez

For having to have a reason to random vote me...and OMGUS

[Muerrto]

Vote: Malchonn

For voting for someone for voting for someone just because they like Ice Cream.

Unvote, Vote: Hyphen

For making my head hurt

[Muerrto]

greetings all

vote: muerrto

why havn't we lynched him yet?

No, no, no. We're not starting that here too

[Muerrto]

Why would they kill the thread? I like 1 per page, alot of mods don't show the count enough.

[Muerrto]

I don't like this. This seems like trying to get a real reason to vote someone, where there really isn't one...

Unvote: DeathSauce
Vote: death_omen

I'm definitely agreeing with this. It's way too early for a real vote and he didn't do anything scummy that I can see. Were you kidding Death when you posted that?

[Muerrto]

This sounds a lot like scum talking to one another. A whole lot like scum talking to one another. I hereby suspect muerrto and death_omen as scumbuddies based on this comment.

Vote: Muerrto (confirming vote)

Um..or it sounds like me asking him if he was joking cause we're still in the random stage? You've got a confirmed vote and a scum buddy pick on page 2? Have fun with that dude.

My random vote stands, not sure why, I spose cause it's random.

[Muerrto]

You are feeding him lines.

I asked if he was joking but in the same post said that I agree that his vote(if it was serious) was waaaay too early.

On the same basis I think your vote is waaaaay too early and quite convenient it's on the exact same person you 'randomly' voted for. Interesting.

You also seemed to have 'randomly' voted for the person w/the most votes and are now...on page 2...sounding 100% convinced you've found 2 scum because of 1 post. Also interesting.

[Muerrto]

Unvote

The Vamp thing about lynching me is an inside joke from another site. I'm not seeing anything there.

I didn't like Death becoming too serious on WLC so quickly and I was ASKING him if it was a joke because I don't think it was.

FoS: Death

However, Khev's quick run on me for little to nothing was disturbing as well. Claiming he's nailed a scum pair that quickly was crazy. He may be over zealous or he may not have realised that the thing about lynching me was a joke. He did actually vote for me almost right after Vamp voted for me and mentioned the lynching. That also disturbed me. Saw an easy target maybe and jumped the gun a bit too fast?

FoS: Khev

And finally I agree with Vamp, where is Malchonn?

FoS: Malchonn

He's usually quiet day 1 but this is a bit much.

[Muerrto]

Muerrto hasn't started talking nonsense (yet)

Lol nice. Man this was a really short random stage for 12 people. Oh well, he spoke up.

UnFoS: Malchonn

So, with such a short random stage we've got little to go on except Death and Khev jumping to votes a bit quick. Give me some time and I'll post a bunch of questions(I'm known for that), just don't make a slip up on your answers or I'll be on you for the next 5 pages(I'm known for that too)

[Muerrto]

Btw just noticed we have 2 deaths(3 if you count me) so now you're omen and you're sauce.

OK so here we go:

Omen: What about WLC's posts were jumpy? He posted a random vote, gave a random funny reason just like everyone else. Yes he explained it was random which was redundant but I'm still not seeing jumpy enough to vote him seriously. I'd still like to know if it was a joke although at this point I'll assume it wasn't. Why wasn't anyone else jumpy to you?

Khev: How did asking Omen if he was joking give you the impression I was feeding him lines? Especially since I said I agreed on the suspiscion towards him. In addition you then claimed with almost certainty on page 2 that I was a pair with Omen. Do you still feel that way? What evidence do you have to back such a hasty claim? Did you realise I had the most votes when you began attacking me?

I just don't like this rapid change:

Wait...still random voting.

vote: muerto

For posting a semi-relevant, in-game reason as his random vote.

That was a genuine random. He is at lynch -4. If someone were to seriously suspect him, I would remove my vote.

This sounds a lot like scum talking to one another. A whole lot like scum talking to one another. I hereby suspect muerrto and death_omen as scumbuddies based on this comment.

Vote: Muerrto (confirming vote)

You are feeding him lines.

The rest of you haven't said enough yet to get my attention. Pray you don't

[Muerrto]

Khev: How did asking Omen if he was joking give you the impression I was feeding him lines?

You were giving him a way out of a really scummy line. That's how.

Or asking him a question. I'm sorry man but even if it was someone else there's no way you could convince me you've nailed a scum pair on page 2 after 1 post.

[Muerrto]

You were giving him a way out of a really scummy line. That's how.

And to add to that. I'm not sure Omen saying someone is 'jumpy' is as scummy as you're making it out to be. Would you lynch either me or Omen on that evidence right now? If your answer is yes I encourage you to slow down a bit. Making day 1 last as long as possible is always good for the town.

[Muerrto]

Btw just noticed we have 2 deaths(3 if you count me) so now you're omen and you're sauce.

Omen: What about WLC's posts were jumpy? He posted a random vote, gave a random funny reason just like everyone else. Yes he explained it was random which was redundant but I'm still not seeing jumpy enough to vote him seriously. I'd still like to know if it was a joke although at this point I'll assume it wasn't. Why wasn't anyone else jumpy to you?

Look we are all short of information, im simply posing votes against certain people and seeing how they react to it, its just something i do to narrow my scum suspects down.

True. And believe me I know how to poke people and get the reactions I want. But on page 2 was a bit fast. And giving a weak reason(jumpy?) when others did the exact same thing(gave a silly reason for a random vote) just looks bad. Now you've got Khev 100% convinced you're scum(I'm not worried about him being convinced about me, I was merely pointing out your reason was weak) because you gave a weak reason and a quick vote.

This is why we want to slow down. Jumping to votes that quick is making others jump to conclusions even quicker. It's not helping any. I'm not trying to give you lines(as you know your role and if you're scum you know my role so you know there's no way we're both scum b/c if you're scum you know I'm not and if you're town you know you're not) I'm merely trying to slow down what was starting to build too quickly.

[Muerrto]

(as you know your role and if you're scum you know my role so you know there's no way we're both scum b/c if you're scum you know I'm not and if you're town you know you're not)

I personally didn't get the "if you're town you know you're not" line...

Please clarify this post!

Easily. Khev claimed we're both scum. Omen knows this isn't true no matter what because if he's scum he knows who else is scum and that I'm not. If he's town then he knows we're not both scum because he's town. He doesn't know if I'm scum but he knows we're not scum buddies. Therefore, no matter what role he is, he knows we're not scumbuddies.

Now this all hinges on you believing me. But for him, he knows it's true because he knows his role. Therefore, he knows we're not scumbuddies.

Of course all of this is WIFOM and will probably cause headaches because of course I can't PROVE my role to you any more than he can. But he KNOWS his role and therefore knows I'm right. Better?

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: Just as a small note. None of this is trying buddy up to Omen or throw suspiscion on Khev. I believe at the moment they're both just over exicted townies until I see otherwise. The point of all this WIFOM was to prove to Omen that I know we're not scum buddies and to tell him to slow down a little.

Khev needs to do the same thing and I've told him as such but unfortunately he's not listening because he's already found a scum pair. Shrug.

[Muerrto]

Yes, it's all WIFOM.

You've made a relatively large argument to prove that "one specific person knows you aren't scumbuddies with that person", which means nothing if you're scum.

Not only does your actual argument do nothing to help us find scum, but you're blatantly trying to use WIFOM as proof of your non-argument!

Unvote:death_omen
Vote: Muerrto
FoS: death_omen

Hm...except I even said it was WIFOM and proves nothing. Did you read that part? I said it proves it to HIM and I already know it's true. How can I ever PROVE anything to you short of me dying? Is everyone here looking for a speed lynch on day 1? Definitely not the speed of game I'm used to, not sure about the rest of you.

Vamp, oh enlightener of the unenlightened, we need some logic.

[Muerrto]

and vampyrus and Muerrto can confirm I'm not in on whatever inside joke was behind vamp's original comment.

Yeah. Inside joke from another site where people like to lynch me. Vamp was actually quoting the mod, Vel, when he said it last game.

Muerrto

: I can see what you're doing in the part of #68 that confused somestrangeflea. You're explaining to death_omen why he shouldn't think you're feeding him lines, yes? This is all well and good, only... death_omen never suggested you were, as far as I can tell. So why did you feel the need to address this point to him?

I mean ... I could tell

you

that the you and me aren't scumbuddies, by the exact some logic (if you're scum, you'd know I'm town; if you're town, you know you're town). Would be kind of odd if I just did it out of nowhere though, right?

Also: is it usually your habit to assume everybody town until you find a reason not to? If not, what have Khev or death_omen done to make you think them town?

Well Omen seemed to get defensive after being accused which both bothers me and frightens me. Getting defensive early can lead to alot more suspiscion laid down on you which can lead to a mislynch, that's the frighten. However, getting defensive early may be because you have something to be defensive about, that's the worry. I still don't like his vote for WLC for being 'jumpy'. I want more of an explanation than just 'we have little info to go on'. You could've FoS'ed him instead of voting him.

I do assume everyone's town until I see otherwise. Usually I go through posts with a fine comb and catch slip ups. I wasn't kidding when I said that before. I will then attack that person relentlessly for a few pages. If they break I'll find some more slip ups, if they don't I back down. I try not to be too abrasive but I get the complaints alot of time that I am. But that's my style and it's not changing. I also find it works well especially with people that haven't been playing that long(although it works much better in person).

[Muerrto]

Muerrto that was a really goofy argument. Why would you ever even need to "prove" to someone that you know you aren't scum with them? To both of you it's totally obvious whether you are scumbuddies or not.

Shrug. Flea asked.

[Muerrto]

Asked you what? I wanted you to clarify something you'd already said, I never "asked" you anything new.

Um exactly. You ASKED me to clarify. I'm not quite understanding your use of the english language. But here we go:

This is why we want to slow down. Jumping to votes that quick is making others jump to conclusions even quicker. It's not helping any. I'm not trying to give you lines(as you know your role and if you're scum you know my role so you know there's no way we're both scum b/c if you're scum you know I'm not and if you're town you know you're not) I'm merely trying to slow down what was starting to build too quickly.

I personally didn't get the "if you're town you know you're not" line...

Please clarify this post!

I told Omen to slow down because I didn't like his short post earlier. He seemed to be bothered by the scum buddy comment. I wasn't adressing him obviously I was adressing Khev since Khev was the one saying I was feeding him lines. I said 'you' because the post was adressing Omen. You asked me to clarify. I clarified.

[Muerrto]

Yeah, but it's not as if I asked you for anything new. You were merely rehashing stuff you'd already said!

Sooo.....I guess I'm still not understanding what you're saying. You asked me to clarify a post and I did. What problem did you have with this?

[Muerrto]

Hey vampy, I'm part Welsh too.

Where did strangeflea "jump" on me? Did I miss something?

I think he menat Flea jumped on me. Still not sure why.

And I'm part Welsh too lol. Wear a celtic knot ring always and plan on gettin it tatooed when I get the $. So wait a minute, why's it sad to be Welsh again?

What other language has like 5 constanants in a row and can still pronounce the word?

[Muerrto]

So wait a minute, why's it sad to be Welsh again?

Well, theres said to be an affinity between welshmen and sheep... Perpetuated by 1001 crude jokes.

Whoa there! I thought that was those dirty Scots!

[Muerrto]

Vote: Muerrto

I really dislike post 68 and the WIFOM that occurred afterward. The repeated requests to slow the game down are bizarre, there wasn't really any chance of a quicklynch, keeping the game moving is what we want.

Of course all of this is WIFOM and will probably cause headaches because of course I can't PROVE my role to you any more than he can.

Excuse me? I even said myself it was WIFOM. I said myself it meant nothing and could prove nothing but that he asked me to clarify and I did.

And I meant slow the game down w/regards to voting which you obviously didn't do.

Want some more WIFOM? Scum wants a quick day and a mislynch. Town wants a sloooow day and alot of information so even if there IS a mislynch as so often happens in games this size on day 1, there'll be enough info to chain together people's posts and find the real scum.

So why exactly did you just place vote #3 on me on the 4th page with no real evidence or cause stated? Saying you didn't like my WIFOM is hardly enough cause to FoS, let alone vote.

[Muerrto]

It would be dead right now if Muertto wasnt accusing people left right and center , he seems keen to pick up on every single post targeted against him with strong comebacks.

Lets see now... Vote:Muerrto

Sooo you're voting me because I'm actually posting as opposed to lurking like most of the other players? That was the worst reason yet.

I now have 4 votes after 2 pages with little reason more than a WIFOM post. I'm asking again for you guys to slow down before you mislynch me and have NO ties whatsoever to anyone else on day 2.

Also, I really don't like Omen jumping on this wagon for such a horrible reason. My thinking is that when I'm found town he'll be cleared of Khev's scum buddy accusation. Definitely:

FoS: Omen

Khev is wrong but had a reason, Flea is wrong but has a reason, Sauce is wrong but had a reason(although he posted a few times before deciding to jump on the WIFOM attack), Omen votes because I'm posting? I don't think so man.

[Muerrto]

Muerrto

Questions:

1)

I'd be interested to see how you rank the people who voted for you in terms of suspicions (obviously you suspect omen most, but I'm not sure how you feel about Khel compared to Flea or Sauce and so on). Mind doing so?

2)

If you had to pick three people right now to 'attack relentlessly for a few pages', who would they be and why?

1. At first it was Khev. He leaped onto me way too fast for little to no reason. But then in post #100 he did the same to Omen. I like his reasons for voting Omen better and I really, really like how he put it. He sounds very opinionated. Maybe a little quick to jump on people but so am I so I relate to his playstyle. I'd rather see him toss around FoS's than votes but until he puts someone in danger he's not bothering me.

Now calling for putting 4 or 5 rapid votes on Omen bothers me. That's a little rash. I don't wanna see anyone at lynch -2 without being able to defend themselves first.


Flea didn't like WIFOM apparently. I think newer players(looking at his join date) are a bit spooked by terminology and WIFOM is the worst one. You will almost never see a game where someone doesn't bring up some WIFOM argument, even if they don't call it WIFOM by name. If I'd never said WIFOM and clarified what I was saying I think he wouldn't have voted me. What I didn't like is that I even said my argument was WIFOM and meant nothing but he voted because it was WIFOM and I was using it

to prove that "one specific person knows you aren't scumbuddies with that person", which means nothing if you're scum.

Not only does your actual argument do nothing to help us find scum, but you're blatantly trying to use WIFOM as proof of your non-argument!

Now this can still be the new player not liking terminology thing but the fact that I SAID it was WIFOM and pointless then he votes me and says it's WIFOM and pointless is a bit off. I mean, If I'd meant it to prove anything I wouldn't have completely taken out the foundation of my own post by calling it pointless and baseless.

He also seems quick to switch sides as apparent by his switch from me to Omen. Both seem over zealous rather than scummy at this time.


Omen jumping aboard my wagon with horrible reasoning was quite enlightening. Posting is always good, scum, town, whatever. Without posts there's no evidence, no links, no game. Voting me because I've been posting(heck he even said it himself)

It would be dead right now if Muertto wasnt accusing people left right and center , he seems keen to pick up on every single post targeted against him with strong comebacks.

Is crazy. Do I think he's scum? At this point I'm going with 75% at least. First the jump on WLC with no defense of it other than

Look we are all short of information, im simply posing votes against certain people and seeing how they react to it, its just something i do to narrow my scum suspects down.

And then leaped just as fast onto me. And I can almost guarantee the first thing he'll do when he logs on is say 'oops' and unvote. He's trying too hard to appease others and jumping from fad to fad. That bothers me greatly.


And finally, Sauce. He actually worries me the most. He posted a total of three times between my WIFOM post and his vote for me. He was the last to jump on my wagon before Omen jumped on and everyone else jumped off. He didn't vote Omen, just FoS'ed him so he's not quite as vote happy as the other 3. But he continues to misunderstand what I mean by slowing down the game. Did Khev calling for a lynch -2 on Omen before he can even defend himself show you what I mean by slowing down the game? Not content, voting.

The reason why he worries me the most is that so far out of the 4 that voted me he seems the most dangerous. He didn't blatantly vote me immediately. He waited, watched the argument build, then voted. Now the fact that he UNvoted me seems to help a little but IGMEOY, you seem crafty. That's a great skill to have as town, and a nasty one as scum.

So in order I'd say: Omen, Sauce, Khev, Flea.


2. Well the first one's easy. Omen. I want to know why he keeps jumping all over with his vote with little to no reason and little to no content. He seems like the one that will slip up when being interrogated. That's what I watch for.

As for 2 more? Khev is jumpy but solid on his convictions. He seems to be seeing now that his scum pair idea isn't 100% and he said as such which is good. I don't see him slipping up anytime soon. Same for Sauce, seems more solid on his feet at the moment and not so quick to lynch.

Flea however seems to slip on his words a bit as you've seen while asking him about his Khev/Omen/Vamp interaction. Under the bright light he'd give some good information I think. I'm not convinced he's scum though so I'm not sure what kind of information I'd get out of him.


Hyphen, Hjalti, and WLC no longer seem to be playing and Hyphen leaping in against me and yet not FoS'ing, voting, or voicing an opinion on the situation bothered me.

I'm watching everone for slip ups at the moment. I usually see ALOT more content from Malchonn and Vamp but they've both been quiet recently on our other site too with RL issues so their silence here just reinforces that.


And now for questions for Pless:

First off, bout time someone posted some content. I wanted to ask you earlier but didn't wanna be seen as buddying up. You're the oldest player here by join date alone so good to finally hear from you.

You've voiced your opinions on most of the situations but I'd like it just all in one place:


1. You didn't like my WIFOM but obviously not enough to vote or even FoS me. Saying people who use WIFOM are scum is in itself WIFOM and therefore pointless. I'm assuming that's why you don't freak when people use it. What is your opinion of me however? What I've gotten so far is that you do have some suspiscions or at least are watching me but that since I'm posting content and helping the game you're not concerned at the moment.

My question is what is your straight opinion of me igoring my content? If I was barely posting and thorwing around votes, would you see how I've acted as suspiscious or would you have the same opinion? You seem to be swayed slightly by my participation and since I've never liked that lurkers=scum I'm just curious.


2. How 'jumpy' do you think Khev, Omen, and Flea have been so far(and to a lesser extent Sauce)? Is throwing around lots of votes dangerous if they're just 2-3 votes on each person? Even though Khev called for a dangerous level on Omen no one's actually followed through so is their being jumpy a problem or a conversation starter?


3. What's your opinion on lurkers? We seem to have quite a few, barely stepping in for some comment but with no contribution whatsoever. Is this something you'd see as lynch worthy? Does it scream scum to you or is it more a job for the mod to prod people?


4. And finally, what is your MO? Everyone's got one. So far it seems very logic oriented, watching how people respond, questioning it, getting them to clarify each line. Good approach and it seemed to get some interesting answers from Flea. The problem is(and I know because I do the same thing) that nervous townies, new players, jumpy people, etc will slip up and look scummy under scrutiny even thought they're not. So when do you back off, and how much weight do you put on what you get out of the people you're questioning?

4b. As a side to that. Flea seems to come out of his interaction with you worse than he went in(in your eyes it seems). Do you see him as possible scum at this time or just fumbling for answers to your question? Did he misunderstand what you were asking or did he skirt it?


That's all for now. I'm not voting Omen yet till he speaks up but his extended silence after being called out isn't helping him any.


As I'm posting this HUGE post I see Omen responded:

2. I expected him to put up a big arguement why he wasn't scum and thats exactly what he did. This guy takes votes seriously he really hates it. Then he thinks I jumped onto the wagon... I ask you what wagon? They were all random or votes with very little meaning.

Random? Votes with little meaning? Ok first off I don't see Khev straight out claiming I'm a scum pair as random or little meaning. Then Flea joins as well, then Sauce, then you. NONE of those votes were random. Could they have been poking? Definitely, but not random. This was far from a good defense on your part.

The wagon was 4 votes when you dropped yours and you had no reason for doing it other than I was defending myself. That's why people are FoS'ing you now.

I'm holding my vote longer because apparently we can expect a better explanation later after class. We'll see.

[Muerrto]

And I can almost guarantee the first thing he'll do when he logs on is say 'oops' and unvote. He's trying too hard to appease others and jumping from fad to fad. That bothers me greatly.

And then...

2. I was expecting him saying how scummy i looked instead of him defending himself, which I must say is exactly what he did. He does post alot but he never really gives himself away, innocent until proven guilty I must say.

In conclusion I think we should pay attention to the lurkers I mentioned above and watch somestrangeflea and WLC.

If you still think I am scum then I am ready for a role claim (if mod allows).

Unvote

Did you just say you thought I was scummy 'cause I said you were scummy instead of defending myself? Dude. I haven't voted you. I've been saying you're being jumpy, and you are.

And you said earlier that you thought I was scummy because I was defending myself TOO much. Which was it again?

You have 3 votes, no need for a RC already.

This post didn't defend yourself at all, it just attacked the lurkers.

[Muerrto]

I think you're scummy for saying this. In general, using poor logic like WIFOM hurts the town, so it is scummy. It's perfectly legitimate to point out that someone has used poor logic and call them scummy for it. It's just like if someone did any other action that hurts the town.

The fact that you are defending WIFOM itself is more suspicious to me than actually using it would be.

Unvote
FoS Muerrto

This is getting old. I understand people don't like WIFOM but you have to actually read the posts to participate people.

I said multiple times it was WIFOM and pointless. I never 'defended' WIFOM I said it was pointless. How did I defend WIFOM again?

Let's pay a bit more attention people.

[Muerrto]

You worry me as well. I felt your reaction to a third vote was quite overblown, since there was only the very slightest of chances that there was any danger in it for you.

No, my reaction to the fourth vote was overblown because the reasoning was crap. My reaction to yours was the same I gave to hyphen above, I NEVER defended WIFOM. I said in my original post that it was pointless and proved nothing. Now some people are saying posting pointless things like that are scummy because they don't help the town. Soooo, does that mean posting stuff about the Welsh is scummy? Gimme a break.

IF I had said this proves we're not scum then YES, hell yes that'd be scummy. But I said exactly:

Of course all of this is WIFOM and will probably cause headaches because of course I can't PROVE my role to you any more than he can.

I completely negated my whole post in that line. I straight out said this post is pointless. If you want to look at it as fluff then do so and if you think fluff is scummy you may wanna try rethinking that. I never tried to prove anything with WIFOM because it's not possible.

[Muerrto]

Saying people who use WIFOM are scum is in itself WIFOM and therefore pointless.

That's a defense of WIFOM and the people who use it.

No. That's saying 'saying people who use WIFOM are scummy is WIFOM'.

And that's correct. WIFOM is pointless and baseless so saying someone who uses WIFOM is scummy is also pointless and baseless because it's WIFOM. Not defending WIFOM at all.

Find a game where no one ever used a WIFOM argument and link it. I'll find the argument for you and let you know. Otherwise accept that WIFOM arguments will ALWAYS come up. You ignore them and move on because they mean nothing.

I wasn't trying to defend WIFOM, prove anything w/it, or promote it in any way and therefore your argument itself is also pointless and baseless.

[Muerrto]

Wow...this looks utterly wrong. It saves time to lynch Death Omen now, and look for partners tomorrow. That way, if he is town, we can immediately jump on some other leads. More information means more accurate investigations. It would be a waste to do anything d1 when we can lynch Death Omen, look at the night kill, and use that information on d2.

Um...save time? Are we in a hurry? This is just a horrible post. Absolutely. Why would we want to speed lynch, possibly accidently get a townie, then start over from scratch day 2? The longer day 1 lasts the more info we get, the more links we get, the better off we are day 2, ESPECIALLY if we get a townie lynched day 1. I'm sorry but there's no other choice but:

STRONG FoS: Khev

You've been gunning WAY too hard for Omen. Do I think he's scum? Yes. But rushing day 1 is a scum move too. Town wants day 1 to last as long as possible so that we have a library of posts to turn to on day 2 for info.

Why would you want to rush especially after even saying Omen

might

be town and we'll talk about that day 2? And lynching before a replacement speaks up and saying he can talk day 2 also? So what you want to do instead of playing a 12 man w/3-4 scum is play a 10 man w/3-4 scum if Omen turns up town? Ouch. Why?

Also keep in mind that since alot of people DO think Omen is scum we can watch for some heavy distancing before he's lynched. Which you're actually appearing to do at the moment. Not saying you're scum, just saying slow your roll. If Omen comes up town your shouting for a speed lynch is gonna get you strung up day 2 and if you ARE town then we'll be at a HUGE disadvantage day 3.

[Muerrto]

This whole exchange BOTHERS me. It all seems like a suck-up on a grand scale. "Oh Plessiez, you are so wise, what do you think of my play? You are so logic oriented and play with such skill!"

I honestly do not ever recall seeing another post like this one on this board. Why are you concerned with what Plessiez thinks about you? Why are you eager to promote him as an authority?

Lol he's got the same playstyle as me so I relate to him more. How is that sucking up? I said the same thing to Vamp earlier and you didn't comment on it. Vamp also uses logic to find scum instead of just randomly throwing your vote around.

Almost everyone in this game is all about speed lynch, vote like crazy, change my vote then vote again. Of COURSE I'm going to click more with people that share my playstyle. He even responded saying he does the whole interrogation thing as well.

He's also the oldest player according to his join date so I expected the most experience out of him. I already know Vamp and Malchonn so I know they're great players. So far what I've seen of the rest of the crew didn't instill me w/too much confidence in finding the scum so I thought I'd see if Pless would be different. No offense meant just going by what I've seen so far.

Besides I already 'sucked up' to you also. I said I was watching you and that I got the feeling you were crafty which would be dangerous on the scum side and good on the town side. You didn't have a problem w/me 'sucking up' to you also? And if I remember correctly you also 'sucked up' to me, you said you were also watching me because I seemed crafty.

So I'm gonna need more explanation why that post bothered you or an 'oops I didn't think of it that way'. You've been kind of streching for suspiscion on me for a while now and I'd like to know why.

[Muerrto]

It wastes time and effort if we go investigating links where none exist. More information is available d2 than d1. We can do all the investigation you want to do on d1 on d2 instead, except we will be missing a scum and a townie on d2. I'd much rather be playing with 1 less scum and 1 less townie.

Um WTF. ONLY if we lynch scum. If Omen's town we get 2 less townies day 2. Would you much rather be playing with 2 less townies? You're completely ignoring the chance that Omen could be town just like you did way back on page 3.

Better to make a large library d2 with less people who can confuse us. Do you understand what I'm saying? You speedlynch scum d1, then d2 it is easier to find remaining scum. No logical scum will defend Death Omen at this point, so now all this talking can be done d2, except one townie will be dead. The dead townie means one less person we suspect as scum.

See above please.

You are being too nice for the way I've been acting . Seriously though, that advice, while very good, makes it seem like you already know I'm not scum...Still, this is tenuous at best, so I am not pursuing you further atm. Death Omen is still much worse in my eyes.

I don't know. I said I don't think you are. You came off to me early and still do as an over anxious townie. Now if you continue to rush a lynch and Omen is town that may change. I also think Omen is scum which is why I'm not pursuing you, but I'm not 100% convinced like you are. It's dangerous to be that sure.

[Muerrto]

To the town.

If

i am town aligned PLEASE make sure Khelvaster is lynched tomorrow.

Ok now to start defending myself again...

There is also a lot of lurking going on by people who just want to see me out of this game, hypenated has just stopped posting completely so has vampsdurgg.

I hope the townies in this game saw that little hint of mine.

First

Vote: Omen

This post was horrible. You flew off the handle, you said 'IF' you came up town, you set up a day 2 lynch on someone that you SHOULDN'T have any clue if they're town or not, you said you started defending yourself and attacked Khev, you then attacked the lurkers, then you breadcrumbed a power role.

Wanna try for a take two?

[Muerrto]

Muerrto

- Wicked crazy poster that I have come to know and love. He is always a tough read for me because he always posts a lot and I lose some info in the process, very defensive, but has seemed to answer everyones question that came to him. I have no idea which side he is on.
@Muerrto- Why is it that in your quote in post #164 you left out the part that Death Omen says "I am 100% town alligned"?

Wicked crazy? Nice.

I left that part out because I thought the 'IF' part was alot more telling. Everyone is of course going to say they're town. But NO ONE that I know of is going to even HINT at the chance of them being scum. It was a weird slip and I latched onto it. That's what I do

Nty for the take two the town is blinded and Im done trying to convince you guys.. You are unpersuadable.

Not a line I EVER want to see from a townie, ESPECIALLY since you're semi-claiming a power role. You're just going to give up if you're the doctor or the cop or whatever and say screw the town just because people suspect you!? Horrible.

I said if because you guys seem to be so sure of my scum allignment i felt fully inclined to add the if.

Umm...but you KNOW your role. Why would you ever even HINT that you could be scum even if you are scum or not? Again, horrible.

Vote stands.

Jesters are possible in mini's, aren't they?

Yes but he's definitely not acting like a jester. If he was he wouldn't be so adamant about being town, breadcrumbing a power role, and saying we'll regret it if we kill him. He'd be pulling some really nasty obvious scum tells to try and get killed. The jester thing is a bit too much of a stretch for me.


@Pless: Not quoting your whole post but I'm not ready to see Khev and Omen as a pair yet. I was also puzzled as to why Khev voted me instead of Omen but then again, we now know Khev seems a little loose in his voting.

While it's possible I wouldn't say it's probable with the amount of arguing those two are doing back and forth.

Now Khev's comments about speeding up the day and your mention of him being sure the replacements would be alive definitely raises my eyebrows a bit.

Whether Omen is scum or not, Khev's play isn't sitting well with me. If Omen is scum it definitely won't clear Khev. If Omen's town, there's not too much that's going to stop the rest of the loose voters from stringing Khev up.

Since I'm not 100% convinced which way that's going to go I'm hoping Khev will slow down so he doesn't set up our day 2 lynch on day 1.

You see he acted in a way he has been acting all game he firstly opposes the post against him fiercely, then directs the post back at you in an inncorrect manner.

Fiercely? You kidding? And incorrect? Let's analyze the post shall we?

Is it just me or has this game slowed down?

It would be dead right now if Muertto wasnt accusing people left right and center , he seems keen to pick up on every single post targeted against him with strong comebacks.

Lets see now... Vote:Muerrto

This is your original vote post. Horrible reason for a vote and the third one on me at this point. Here is my response:

Sooo you're voting me because I'm actually posting as opposed to lurking like most of the other players? That was the worst reason yet.

I now have 4 votes after 2 pages with little reason more than a WIFOM post. I'm asking again for you guys to slow down before you mislynch me and have NO ties whatsoever to anyone else on day 2.

Also, I really don't like Omen jumping on this wagon for such a horrible reason. My thinking is that when I'm found town he'll be cleared of Khev's scum buddy accusation. Definitely:

FoS: Omen

Khev is wrong but had a reason, Flea is wrong but has a reason, Sauce is wrong but had a reason(although he posted a few times before deciding to jump on the WIFOM attack), Omen votes because I'm posting? I don't think so man.

Fierce? Where? Point it out? Point out my evil glare too while you're at it. And my strong comeback? Dude, I didn't even VOTE you, I FoS'ed you and asked for an explanation. You NEVER gave one. And later:

And I can almost guarantee the first thing he'll do when he logs on is say 'oops' and unvote. He's trying too hard to appease others and jumping from fad to fad. That bothers me greatly.

And of course your next post:

In conclusion I think we should pay attention to the lurkers I mentioned above and watch somestrangeflea and WLC.

If you still think I am scum then I am ready for a role claim (if mod allows).

Unvote

Vote stands. Work on your defense a bit more and stop trying to attack your attackers. You attacked Khev, me, the lurkers, and no where did you state WHY you placed the vote in the first place.

And if you're sure I'm scum #2 why'd you remove your vote? I'm not in danger of a lynch, it didn't bother me you had a vote on me. Your REASON bothered me, and everyone else too. You removing your vote just looks worse because:

He's trying too hard to appease others and jumping from fad to fad. That bothers me greatly.

Period.

[Muerrto]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but another reason to move now before lurkers are replaced is that, if night happens while they still need replacing, we can be sure they aren't scum. If they need replacing, one of them is scum.

Um...why would we know they're not scum just because they need replacing? Careful Khev. Your replacement comment earlier as Pless already pointed out sounds like you know who's going to die and who's not. So explain this very carefully to me.

@Pless: I think I found my next few pages.

[Muerrto]

Khelvaster is thinking far too ahead, he assumes im scum, is already guessing what could and would happen on day 2.
He's basically saying lynch before anyone else has a chance to speak, beat the mod beat the replacements, lynch the "supposed scum".

And I agree. I still think you're scummier for never defending and always attacking and for voting me because I post and for NUMEROUS other reasons but I'm not missing Khev's posts, believe me.

I just said I want an explanation of why he's always got some kind of

inside scoop

, I've told him many times to slow down, to not set himself up as our day 2 lynch etc.

I also just said that unless his latest post is explained satisfactorily he'll be in my scope for a few pages to come. That last post about replacments can't be scum was just weird to say the least.


PS. Don't quote my whole post Omen if you're not responding to my whole post please, just a pet peeve of mine and it takes up too much space in the game.

[Muerrto]

Well, the mod obviously wouldn't go through night without all the scum being there. So, if we finish d1 before he gets replacements, we will know that none of the afkers are scum. Similarly, if he delays before getting replacements, we will know at least one of them are scum. Does this make sense?

Well first off I agree that's a pretty underhanded tactic and not in the spirit of the game. But second remember that some of the people not posting might just be lurking and not being replaced.

But your explanation(while I don't like your methods) makes sense.

[Muerrto]

as you know

your role

and if you're scum you know my role

This is only true if Muerto is scum, as scum don't know who is town and who is neutral

Um I know you said your english isn't great but read that again. I said YOU know YOUR role. As in HE knows HIS role. How's that make me scum? I think you misread that.

[Muerrto]

First off, welcome. Great post.

Vampyrysddg

Honestly the one player in this game who strikes me as townie, the reasoning behind that being that he has flip flopped on his votes so many times that this would be a clear way to draw attention to yourself which is something Mafia does not like to do. His first vote for Muerrto was casted after Plessiez cast his first vote for Muerrto, his second vote for Vampaneze hunter was a bandwagon vote. His votes there after were for Hjallti, Malchonn & Death Omen. I noticed that he never cast a vote for someone who hadn’t already had a vote on them. My thoughts on that were simply, this is either a brilliant strategy by a Mafia member or a indecisive strategy by a townie, my opinion lying towards the latter obviously.

Just a small note(altho I hate to metagame), Vamp is NEVER all over the place with his votes but I think most of the votes you quoted were in the random stage still or poking lurkers. But revise your opinion of Vamp quickly. He'll be a great town asset or a deadly mafia. I always watch him closely.

Not saying he's scum, but don't even come close to thinking he's not a good player.


Also, great points about Khev which is why he has my FoS. DO has my vote because his defense has been nothing but crap.

Now a question for you:

1) Compare Khev and DO and tell me why one seems more scummy than the other.


To answer my own question. Yes Khev's pushing a lynch hardcore but look at how he's played so far. He doesn't exactly run slowly towards the brick wall. If DO's town and we lynch him then Khev will definitely smack that wall hard and if he's town also we'll screw up 2 days.

DO however has had no defense. When asked to he has simply given up and attacked lurkers and Khev. He's even hinted a power role but has also basically said(when he said he gave up) that he's not planning on RC'ing it. What is that?

If DO can give me a decent defense WITHOUT attacking someone I may remove my vote. Remember DO, unless you're scum you don't know Khev's role. Just because he's attacking you doesn't mean he's scum.

Now the fact that he's ruthlessly, unflichingly, and blatantly attacking you and requesting for your speedlynch might mean he's scum. So convince me he's not right. Period. You'll notice each reply I give to you says 'vote stands'. Make it not so.

[Muerrto]

This is very important to read, especially the stuff about Muerrto. You can overlook the Nelly stuff if you want--Muerrto and D_O are almost totally linked.

Notice how, in this post, I defend myself against my accusations *compares self to Death Omen* in addition to making attacks against Nelly and Muerrto.

First off, Muerrto and more of his scumtalking

If DO can give me a decent defense WITHOUT attacking someone I may remove my vote.

Remember DO, unless you're scum you don't know Khev's role.

Just because he's attacking you doesn't mean he's scum.

Yikes! Now tell me, everybody, is there any possible way I am misinterpreting this, or is Muerrto giving advice to his scumbuddy, Death_Omen?

Um Khev. I'm sure this is gonna be echoed by everyone else but...SLOW DOWN with your accusations and pushes for a lynch!

I've given DO advice multiple times, I'll quote the posts.

I've ALSO given YOU advice multiple times and you even mentioned that I had and that I was being too nice to you. So are you my scumbuddy too?

What I said above to DO was nothing more than what I've said like 10 times to him already. Read back. I've done it A TON. Because if he IS town and especially if he IS a power role I DON'T want him dead because he gave up.

I've told him a million times to defend himself, I told him RC'ing wasn't needed, I told him to stop attacking his attackers.

I told YOU to slow down, to not be so convinced you're the sherlock holmes of mafia, to stop calling for a speed lynch that will have you killed on day 2.

I'd FoS you again but what's the point. I still think DO is scummier so my vote stays but you shouting that you've solved the game in like 6 pages isn't helping any.


Oh, and just so you don't have to bother to quote me again, my advice to DO:

This post was horrible. You flew off the handle, you said 'IF' you came up town, you set up a day 2 lynch on someone that you SHOULDN'T have any clue if they're town or not, you said you started defending yourself and attacked Khev, you then attacked the lurkers, then you breadcrumbed a power role.

Wanna try for a take two?

Not a line I EVER want to see from a townie, ESPECIALLY since you're semi-claiming a power role. You're just going to give up if you're the doctor or the cop or whatever and say screw the town just because people suspect you!? Horrible.

Vote stands. Work on your defense a bit more and stop trying to attack your attackers. You attacked Khev, me, the lurkers, and no where did you state WHY you placed the vote in the first place.

And I agree. I still think you're scummier for never defending and always attacking and for voting me because I post and for NUMEROUS other reasons but I'm not missing Khev's posts, believe me.

I just said I want an explanation of why he's always got some kind of

inside scoop

, I've told him many times to slow down, to not set himself up as our day 2 lynch etc.

I also just said that unless his latest post is explained satisfactorily he'll be in my scope for a few pages to come. That last post about replacments can't be scum was just weird to say the least.

Also, great points about Khev which is why he has my FoS. DO has my vote because his defense has been nothing but crap.

Yes Khev's pushing a lynch hardcore but look at how he's played so far. He doesn't exactly run slowly towards the brick wall. If DO's town and we lynch him then Khev will definitely smack that wall hard and if he's town also we'll screw up 2 days.

DO however has had no defense. When asked to he has simply given up and attacked lurkers and Khev. He's even hinted a power role but has also basically said(when he said he gave up) that he's not planning on RC'ing it. What is that?

If DO can give me a decent defense WITHOUT attacking someone I may remove my vote. Remember DO, unless you're scum you don't know Khev's role. Just because he's attacking you doesn't mean he's scum.

Now the fact that he's ruthlessly, unflichingly, and blatantly attacking you and requesting for your speedlynch might mean he's scum. So convince me he's not right. Period. You'll notice each reply I give to you says 'vote stands'. Make it not so.

And not to leave out Khev...

I'm not sure Omen saying someone is 'jumpy' is as scummy as you're making it out to be. Would you lynch either me or Omen on that evidence right now? If your answer is yes I encourage you to slow down a bit. Making day 1 last as long as possible is always good for the town.

I believe at the moment they're both just over exicted townies until I see otherwise. The point of all this WIFOM was to prove to Omen that I know we're not scum buddies and to tell him to slow down a little.

Khev needs to do the same thing and I've told him as such but unfortunately he's not listening because he's already found a scum pair. Shrug.

Also keep in mind that since alot of people DO think Omen is scum we can watch for some heavy distancing before he's lynched. Which you're actually appearing to do at the moment. Not saying you're scum, just saying slow your roll. If Omen comes up town your shouting for a speed lynch is gonna get you strung up day 2 and if you ARE town then we'll be at a HUGE disadvantage day 3.

I don't know. I said I don't think you are. You came off to me early and still do as an over anxious townie. Now if you continue to rush a lynch and Omen is town that may change. I also think Omen is scum which is why I'm not pursuing you, but I'm not 100% convinced like you are. It's dangerous to be that sure.

Um...why would we know they're not scum just because they need replacing? Careful Khev. Your replacement comment earlier as Pless already pointed out sounds like you know who's going to die and who's not. So explain this very carefully to me.

I just said I want an explanation of why he's always got some kind of

inside scoop

, I've told him many times to slow down, to not set himself up as our day 2 lynch etc.

Well first off I agree that's a pretty underhanded tactic and not in the spirit of the game. But second remember that some of the people not posting might just be lurking and not being replaced.

But your explanation(while I don't like your methods) makes sense.

Yes Khev's pushing a lynch hardcore but look at how he's played so far. He doesn't exactly run slowly towards the brick wall. If DO's town and we lynch him then Khev will definitely smack that wall hard and if he's town also we'll screw up 2 days.

DO however has had no defense. When asked to he has simply given up and attacked lurkers and Khev. He's even hinted a power role but has also basically said(when he said he gave up) that he's not planning on RC'ing it. What is that?

If DO can give me a decent defense WITHOUT attacking someone I may remove my vote. Remember DO, unless you're scum you don't know Khev's role. Just because he's attacking you doesn't mean he's scum.

Now the fact that he's ruthlessly, unflichingly, and blatantly attacking you and requesting for your speedlynch might mean he's scum. So convince me he's not right. Period. You'll notice each reply I give to you says 'vote stands'. Make it not so.

So...yeah. I give advice to players who IMO(no offense meant) aren't playing well. That's what I do.

You're rushing day 1 and 100% convinced every time you find someone.

DO hinted a power role then gave up and is probably going to be lynched unless he speaks up.

Both of you need to alter your playstyle slightly and you BOTH need to try a take 2.

[Muerrto]

Scumtrio, in order of probabilities:

1. Muerrto
2. Nellie
3. Death_Omen

That said,

unvote; I will vote for whoever reaches hammering distance first: Omen, Muerrto, or Nellie.

Sigh. My post to slow down AGAIN fell a second too late as you posted these trio during my post being typed up.

So now you've found the third scum? Me, Nell(which is WLC, the one DO voted for in the first place that started all this), and DO...who I'm currently voting for. And who Nelly suspects. So we're ALL bussing each other?

And mentioning that Nelly didn't find anything suspicious about me is strange and makes him my scum buddy? So...does that make like 6 other people playing my scumbuddies? Cause pretty much everyone but you, Flea(somewhat), and Sauce haven't really had a suspiscion of me either.

Your suspiscion of me is that every time I give someone advice you think I'm 'feeding them lines'. Small hint, mafia don't do that. Feeding lines is a blatant scum tell and a damn good way to get lynched.

I'd say slow down again but it wouldn't matter. You've set up day 1, 2, and 3 lynches and the first one that turns up town, you'll be lynched the next day for causing it. I give up trying to reason with you. For now I'm going to picture you as the guy sitting in the corner foaming at the mouth and see what everyone else thinks.

You have to be a tad more conservative with your votes/accusations if you're going to be 100% convinced every time.

[Muerrto]

I'm not ready to hammer Khev yet and I'm not big on metagaming but I AM ready to vote Khev. Before he's hammered I want to hear from him, but something he's done I can't really talk about here has me 100% convinced he's scum desperately trying to get me killed. Way too desperate. I'll leave it up to the

MOD

if I can say what he did, I'm sure he's already heard about it.

Unvote, Extreme FoS: Khev

I'm hammering tomorrow unless something changes, although I'd love to hear from him before then.

[Muerrto]

EBWODP:

Muerrto:

If, by suspicious thing, you mean what I said on mini 474, then yes, feel free to vote me for it. I was making a post on 474, confused some stuff, and ended up voting for you in the game which you weren't participating in, then yes, I will freely admit to doing so. It was an accident.

Well I was waiting for an ok from the mod before posting about ongoing games, and you should've too but yes. And it's hilarious. And it's kind of damning. And you should definitely link it if the mod lets you.

[Muerrto]

Also any mention of hammering is me being used to newbie games and assuming 4 votes was a hammer. Ignore that but I'm very much ready to vote Khev now since it's NOT a hammer:

Vote: Khev

For his fanatical attacks on me.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: Also of course for all my earlier listed suspiscions: his attacks on DO, his calls for a speedlynch, etc.

[Muerrto]

Muerrto, the vote from you is hardly surprising, and I won't fight it, since I am thouroughly convinced you are scum, so any fighting would be worthless.

Sigh do I have to go back and quote your posts where you no longer suspected me because I was agreeing with you? Do you ALWAYS vote only OMGUS? It's ridiculous. Hey this'll sound familiar.

Vote stands. Try and defend yourself instead of attacking others non-stop.

Careful, I'm feeding you lines

[Muerrto]

It seems the town has caught up to you Khelvaster, I thought you were scum every since you randomly changed your mind and attacked me from post subject: 100 onwards.

Vote:Khelvaster

Refusing to fight a vote or not defending youself is very bad.

GAH! Right after I remove my vote and vote for Khev you post this and my fingers want to creep back and switch again. This post is so scummy it's insane. I'm waiting for some defense from Khev, that's why my vote is there. But I have no clue which one of you is worse at this point.

[Muerrto]

Well, process of elimination dictates that Vampaneze isn't scum if the three people I really think are scum are. If D_O turns out to be a frameup but Muerrto and Nellie are scum, I would definitely take a good look at Vampaneze.

Well, eventually you'll realise that claiming to have found scum on page 2 is just not gonna happen. That pushing a speed lynch is a a bad scum tell. That suspecting no one except the three people that you're 100% convinced are scum doesn't help the town at all.

It's a learning process.

[Muerrto]

Well, if we're ending the day (and it looks as if we are), I'd rather

vote: death_omen

than lynch Khel. (Actually, I'd much rather lynch Vampaneze, but apparently people don't care about the fact he keeps mixing up who he suspects and what he thinks of them or that he contradicts himself from post to post )

I know I promised a reread on DeathSauce, too. That should - hopefully - come later today (would be nice if we didn't lynch anybody before then, too).

Hunter seems to me like a crazy poster. New to the game, not sure of what he's doing, trying to follow a game with a few more experienced players(no offense Hunter). I'm not sure he knows who's scum and who's not. Could it be a ruse and he's scum? Yes. But honestly, this town will accomplish nothing w/DO and Khev both still alive so I'm willing to lynch either one.


Khev for being fanatical in his attacks against his attackers, his obsession that he's found all the scum on day 1, his rush for a speedlynch.

DO for his give up attitude, his obsession with Khev being scum, his unhelpful posts with no defense and only attacks.

Neither are helping the town, both

could

be scum, both probably ARE town. But if we keep fighting back and forth between just those two we'll never get anywhere.

I'm not too concerned about who we lynch today but I'd rather it be Khev since he's kind of foaming at the mouth. I still think both will come up town sadly but I'm not seeing any other alternative.


As for Sauce I'm still watching him. He seems to have it out for me for some reason. But that doesn't mean he's scum.


As for the rest? No real read on the replacements yet since they just got here and their predecessors didn't play. Malch and Vamp have been pretty quiet. Flea pops in sometimes. And Pless, he's either a really good mafia or a really good town. I have no reason to suspect you so I'm assuming town for now. But I can see how you'd make a nasty scum. I'm tempted to check some of your past games but I know metagaming doesn't equal scum. Still, would be interesting reading.

Short story, here's my suspects in order:

1. DO, still. I'm voting Khev so he'll defend himself and drop his silly 'I am a mafia GOD' crap. Could he be town? Yeah. But if he is I'll be surprised.

2. Khev. He's insane in his attachment to his suspiscions. Could HE be town? Likely actually. But if he is then why isn't he playing like a townie?

3. Sauce. No real content. Maybe this is some OMGUS but with no real content and seeming to just have it out for me he bothers me.


Everyone else right now? Not really any reads. Hunter's posts make my head hurt. Hjalti(I hope I spelled that right), Flea, Vamp, Malchonn, Nell, Seraph, not really any reads either way yet. And Pless has to be town at this point. If he's scum we're in trouble because he's hiding it well.

Vote stands on Khel because while I suspect DO more, Khel is hurting the town more. If he starts playing a tad differently that may change. But like I said I'll vote for either.

[Muerrto]

*sigh*

Muerrto, I'm

really

not happy about you voting for somebody you think is town. If you think omen is scummier, why not switch your vote? Either you'll help lynch scum (which is good), or you'll be able to show Khel his theory of an omen-Muerrto-Nelly scum team is wrong (also good, no?). I think that - if town - Khel has the potential to be more useful than omen, really (at least Khel goes after people he thinks are scum, and sometimes has better reasons to think that than "OMG, he voted for me!!").

Agreed. I guess I just have problems with his methods and I think we're getting so bogged down discussing them that we're not making any headway. Honestly, we're at like 12 pages of nothing right now. But whatever, I'll listen to reason.

Unvote

I'll vote for either one. Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless, I'm slightly sure BOTH are town but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now. And missing a lynch is always bad so I'm voting for the 2 I'm most suspiscious of right at this moment.

[Muerrto]

'll vote for either one. Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless, I'm slightly sure BOTH are town but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now.

Whoa, so you are prepared to hammer either Khel or Omen?

I'll vote for either one.
Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless,

I'm slightly sure BOTH are town

but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now. And missing a lynch is always bad so I'm voting for the 2

I'm most suspiscious of right at this moment.

Ehwut?

Day 1 has to end at some point. Do I want a speed lynch? No. Do I see us making any headway whatsoever? No. Do I like either DO's or Khel's contribution to the game so far? No.

DO has given up and insists without a doubt in his mind that Khel is scum. Why? Because Khel is attacking you? You mean townies can't attack townies? That's crazy.

Khel is fanatical in his find of ALL 3 scum on day 1 and he apparently found TWO on page 2 of day 1. That's also crazy. And why? Because I 'coached' or 'gave advice'? You mean like the tons I gave to Khel too? Heck I've given advice to just about everyone I've ever played with at least somewhat. If I see someone making a bad play I let them know. Pless has given advice several times as well. Is he coaching DO too?

THIS is why I slightly suspect Sauce. You seem to take things I'm doing, that others are ALSO doing, and try to nail me for them. You whole basis for me being scum was that I was coaching DO. Yet you voted for ME instead of DO. How does that make sense?

And Flea, if you're saying you're 100% convinced DO is scum and that's why you're voting him then you're in the same boat as Khel. If you're NOT 100% convinced DO is scum then you're in the same boat as me. How is me saying I'm thinking they're both town any different from doubting if they're scum or not?


So yes, I

think

they could both be town. I'm

hoping

they're not. But with their non-stop back and forth we won't find the real scum if they're not going to stop. I'm

hoping

that if one dies the other will slow down.

What's really funny is the Khel is 100% convinced DO is scum and I'm his partner. DO is 100% that Khel is scum and I'm his partner. I feel so loved and yet the fact that they BOTH can't see how crazy that is disturbs me. I see this game going nowhere unless this is resolved.

If Khel dies as town maybe we can move on. If Khel dies as scum I know I'm gonna be under heavy fire. That's a risk I'll have to take.

If DO dies as town maybe we can move on. If DO dies as scum I know I'm gonna be under heavy fire. That's a risk I'll have to take.

Wow. Those look slightly similar


In short, I'm never 100% convinced someone is scum unless we have a confirmed cop investigation. Those two could ALWAYS be just 2 townies being a tad too overzealous fighting back and forth. If neither of you see that possibility, re-evaluate your suspiscions.

[Muerrto]

And Flea, if you're saying you're 100% convinced DO is scum and that's why you're voting him then you're in the same boat as Khel. If you're NOT 100% convinced DO is scum then you're in the same boat as me. How is me saying I'm thinking they're both town any different from doubting if they're scum or not?

It was the use of the word "sure" in the original post that threw me.

Shrug. I spose bad choice of words. But I'd say I'm about 70% sure Khel is town and about...30-40%? sure DO is town. So I'd definitely say I'm less sure of DO because of his early RC, his giving up, his non-stop attack on Khel.

Khel on the other hand has just been way too sure of his scum findings. He's over confident and unwilling to see any other angle. He's also pointing out multiple people, not just DO. He seems more a townie way too sure of himself to me. But the problem is until he stops that he's not helping. My vote for him(as I stated) was more to get him to stop it. It didn't work.

[Muerrto]

THIS is why I slightly suspect Sauce. You seem to take things I'm doing, that others are ALSO doing, and try to nail me for them. You whole basis for me being scum was that I was coaching DO. Yet you voted for ME instead of DO. How does that make sense?

I still want an explanation for this Sauce if you could.

[Muerrto]

No problem. My initial thought was to lynch the more experienced of the scum, that is why I voted for you. In considering the possibility that I am wrong, I decided to vote the less experienced player, in hopes that if I am wrong it is less of a detriment to the town.

Your post above about how you will be viewed as suspicious no matter who is lynched puzzles me a tad. Can you explain why you would be suspect if Khel is lynched?

Because DO is 100% convinced I'm Khel's partner and vice versa. So if either ARE scum then I'm gonna be under fire.

[Muerrto]

Anyway, I'd really like the real cop to come out d2 and investigate D_O n1. If no real cop comes out, then I suppose we happen to have the scummiest townie since Battle Mage. That said, Muerrto is my other choice for today. I've already explained why.

Vote: Muerrto

Um wait a sec. Your ENTIRE case of me being scum is that I fed DO lines. NOW DO claims cop and you're saying I'm the second scummiest? But IF you believe he's a cop then we're obviously not scumbuddies and you have no case on me because I wouldn't be feeding him lines. If you DON'T believe he's the cop then why would you not vote him? Your vote for me makes no sense and definitely makes me do this.

Vote: Khev

First you're 100% convinced me and DO are scum, then you add Nell. Somewhere in there you decide we're all 3 scum. Now DO claims cop and instead of voting him since you're 100% convinced he's scum you vote me? You push for a speedlynch, you try to rush the day, you have tunnel vision on only 3 people in the game(the exact amount needed after night kills for a scum win). I coulda sworn you were just eager town but your immediate acceptance of his cop claim when before you were 100% convinced he was scum is simply damning.

Now what this means most likely is that DO is Khev's partner as Pless supposed earlier. Either that or he plans on safely night killing DO later. But we'll have to see what happens on day 2 and what DO found out.

[Muerrto]

oh yea forgot to answer Khel's question:

*town alligned* *hint* *nudge*

This is the worst hint period. It doesn't say cop at all. I'm NOT going to vote you today because there's NEVER any reason to lynch a claimed power role unless in LYLO, but this does NOT mean I believe your claim at all.

HUGE FoS: DO

Every single person playing is going to say they're town aligned. How is this a hint in any way shape or form?

[Muerrto]

Um wait a sec. Your ENTIRE case of me being scum is that I fed DO lines. NOW DO claims cop and you're saying I'm the second scummiest? But IF you believe he's a cop

then we're obviously not scumbuddies and you have no case on me because I wouldn't be feeding him lines.

Wow, what a gem. This is pure WIFOM, especially after I mentioned a little while ago how you might still be scum feeding him lines to try and frame him up and make you guys seem connected. You are playing heavily on this connection, which is in fact pure WIFOM and thus useless. Also, you wouldn't know that he was cop until he claimed.

Please read up on WIFOM before you respond again. This isn't it. You said that I was feeding my scum buddy lines. You've been 100% convinced of that since day 2. That's been your ONLY case against me.

Only recently, like 1 page back did you change that to say that maybe I was scum linking myself to DO and that maybe he was innocent. But you were STILL saying you were 100% convinced you had all 3 scum. So much so that you said you had NO other suspects at all. This is contradictory.

Claiming my argument is WIFOM after we saw how much people hated WIFOM is just a tactic to divert votes onto me. Again, read up on WIFOM. If I'd said something like 'scum wouldn't feed lines to town' that would be WIFOM. But I didn't. I said YOUR case against me was that I was scum feeding my SCUMBUDDY lines. Now that DO's claimed cop and you unvoted him, how am I a scumbuddy feeding lines again?

Would you vote for a claimed cop in a closed setup without a counterclaim? I certainly wouldn't.

Now this is nice. You can look above your post and see that I already stated that same thing. So trying to state that in a way that sounds like I would vote a claimed cop? Not gonna work. I even said I don't believe the claim but I'm not voting a claimed cop.

I am convinced you are scum mainly because of your repeated line-feeding and attempts to establish a link to D_O

I've already shot down this argument a few pages back in a post you never responded to about how I basically 'fed lines' to just about everyone playing. Now pay attention. What you just posted above? Saying I'm scum because I'm 'feeding lines'? THAT is WIFOM my friend and an incredibly weak reason to vote anyone.


You suspect strictly on an OMGUS basis, we saw it with DO, me, and Nell. You have no evidence or reason behind your votes other than 'since they're attacking me they must be scum'. Since townies don't know each other this argument is null. BUT scum know who the townies are. And your constant OMGUS voting definitely spells scum.

[Muerrto]

Where'd Muerrto go?

First off thursday is my day off. I don't check the boards usually. Sometimes you'll see a post from me but not often. At 1:05 yesterday...hmm...can't quite remember where I was but it was more entertaining than mafia I can tell you that.

Now to:

Looks like we made a mistake Ladies and Gentlemen... I think today is going to be a very long day...

We? You hammered him RIGHT after someone asked for more discussion. You hammered him before he could RC(although now we know he wouldn't have RC'ed Vig but you didn't know that then).

I believe that Malchonn is corect and that Khelvaster is at L-1. I suggest that no one hammer until we can discuss this cop claim further.

I think we have discused it long enough, he has made a RC and no one including myself is willing to take a chance on day one. KL is the only person who has came close to lynching and is scummy in everyones eyes (Including mine with the exception of my gut feeling).

Hammering on my part would seem odd if I hadn't cast my vote for Khelv already and just recently changed it... I can honestly say that this gut feeling is still with me but like everyone has said "Lynching a claimed cop role is a bad move on day one" so be relatively new to this game I will go with the census and agree that D.O has saved his butt with a claim to be the cop...

Unvote: Death Omen

Vote: Kehlvaster

After 20 days and 14 pages of post I can say that I am ready to end day one and move on (Even though I wasn’t here since day one)...

You even made mention of the fact that you didn't want any further discussion. Did you forget about an RC?

I don't see how it was wrong, a RANDOM vote still counts as a vote and I simply stated that you cast a vote for Death Sauce and as far as being the only one of the two to cast a vote fo Khevlaster, well I believe that to be true also so ONCE AGAIN what am I wrong about besides not mentioning that your vote was random...

Hey Guys Flea cast a vote for Sauce but it was RANDOM!

Then you try to place some suspiscion on Flea for a random vote on page 1?

I think alot of heat should be placed on D.O right now because his role claim is what caused us to lynch Khelvaster...

Then DO?

Vote: Malchonn

I am casting a vote for Malchonn...

And your basis is? This is straight OMGUS because he called you out for the same thing everyone else has been itching to call you out on for 3 days, HAMMERING without an RC! Where's your reason? You didn't even post one.

Oh and

MOD

I think we need clarification that a fail is a fail, a godfather is innocent, right? I've never heard of a fail being a godfather so

FoS: Seraph

For the misdirection whether purposely or not.

Vote: Nelly

For hammering, diverting attetion and suspiscion, not apologising or taking responsibility for hammering, voting OMGUS when someone mentioned it, etc.

I don't need a vote count because I know I'm vote #3.

Well you are entitled to your opinion Sir... But I can assure you that you are wasting it on me... I am Townie...

Always hated this claim. It means nothing to the town whatsoever. I want more defense for the hammer and the OMGUS voting.

[Muerrto]

Let's hold off on any more votes before we hear something please.

This is deja vu

[Muerrto]

Why vote for Malchonn is a question that is circulating right now and I am willing to answer it with no problem… As you saw earlier I gave no reason to vote Malchonn because there is no reason to vote Malchonn…

Unvote:Malchonn

One way for me to stir the pot was to place a vote on someone with no real chance of getting voted off, give no reason for the vote and then sit back and wait and see who bandwagons me… I had a lot of thoughts about who is scum and who is not but it is hard to tell the right from the wrong in day one. But my thoughts process was that SCUM would be more then willing to stick their neck out in a bandwagon on day two because if they draw attention to themselves while lynching a townie they still walk into day 3 with an advantage over the town…

First off, this is pretty convenient to say AFTER placing the vote and being called out on it. But I'll let it be since your post simply gets worse from here.

I will give you a Role Claim right now so incase someone wants to hammer me they can do so with no hesitation (if the time comes ofcourse)…

PLAIN VANILLA TOWNIE… Nothing special going on in my part of town…

This isn't a claim. It's pointless to claim townie since EVERYONE is claiming townie. Scum claim townie, townies claim townie, the only ones that don't are power roles and they wouldn't claim anything till they have to.

But anyways with all of this going through my mind I have to say that i belive D.O to be Townie regardless of what I said in the past...

In conclusion... I think everyone wants to know why I hammered Khelvaster without giving him a chance to ROLECLAIM...

The reason for this was simple... We had D.O close to a lynch and alot of people were convinced that he was scum.. But then he comes out and with one post and a roleclaim he turns the tide because no one wanted to vote for a claimed cop role... So then we all turn to Khelvaster and get him close to a lynch and then someone says "Wait and let him roleclaim"...

Now what i was thinking was, he comes out and claims to be the Vigilante (He double checks his PM and sees the mistake) so now he makes this claim and everyone says "Oh well I dont want to lynch a claimed Vigilante role on day one" so then we go back to square one and lets say we all jumped on Vampy and then he got close to a lynch and then he claimed to be the Doc and we all stoep back and say "I dont want to lynch a claimed doc role on the first day"...

You see what I am saying, we had no real way of knowing if someone is telling the truth so I took it upon myself to hammer him...

You do realise you just contradicted yourself, right? Not only that but you basically just said that you believed Khev was town and hammered him before he could RC because there was no way to be sure if he was telling the truth, but that you believe DO's RC. Sooo...you just killed the Vig because why? You didn't want the day to go on longer? You didn't want to find out what his RC was before you hammered? There's just no possible explanation you can give for this, none. And trying to defend it makes it worse. You should have just said 'oops'.

Muerrto: I have to say that this person is very good at his job if he is infact scum... He talked so much that he made me believe that he was townie but as of right now I honestly think that his talking was a ploy to make him seem like town... I think everyone believes scum sits back and waits so he took a opposite approach and spoke so much that anyone who is watching would say that he cant be scum...

Wait a sec. So because I'm doing something scum would never do, I must be scum? You do know what WIFOM is right? Actually, it's this:

On that same note if I was scum why in the hell would I stick my ass out there and hammer someone! Knowing that this would put my name on the tip of everyones tongue on day two!

Another WIFOM argument. So you're saying I'm scum because I don't act like it but you did something scum would never do and therefore can't be scum? Contradictory again?

Anyways I hope this explains alot... I am not going to sit here and defend attacks from people so unless you have a question for me you will not receive a answer...

Dude. This is mafia. That's the name of the game. Everyone's suspect. The only people who know who's who are scum. When you do scummy things you pull attention. Hammering someone without letting them RC, using WIFOM to prove your innocence and that same WIFOM to prove someone else's guilt. These are scum tells and will draw attention. Either you defend yourself or you give up and hurt the town.

[Muerrto]

Any questions in there Muerrto or would you like to just continue to take what I say and attempt to bury me?

There were quite a few questions in there. Did you bother to read it?

Here's some questions for you, did you expect WIFOM to prove anything?

Can you explain your hammer vote? Can you explain your explanation for your hammer vote?

Are you playing anymore? Have you given up?

There ya go. Questions.

[Muerrto]

Actually I didnt know this had a name for it but actually yeah I hoped it would help me out by bringing that thought to peoples eyes but I wasnt aware it was something that was used so often that it had its own name... But on that same note nothing we say can prove anything, for example nothing you say can prove that you are not scum. But you will continue to attack me in hopes that no one will sit back and start to look your way.

Ok. So basically because you know your role we're supposed to assume you've got the town's interest at heart?

Step back, look at yourself from everyone else's point of view. You're doing the same thing Khel did that he was blasted for, being too damn sure of yourself.

Pretend there's a chance you could be wrong and try again.

I still want a better explanation for the hammer. Saying 'I hammered so he couldn't RC' is exactly the opposite of what I want to hear and makes NO sense EVER as town.

[Muerrto]

I will give you a Role Claim right now so incase someone wants to hammer me they can do so with no hesitation (if the time comes ofcourse)…

PLAIN VANILLA TOWNIE… Nothing special going on in my part of town…

This isn't a claim. It's pointless to claim townie since EVERYONE is claiming townie. Scum claim townie, townies claim townie, the only ones that don't are power roles and they wouldn't claim anything till they have to.

Well hang on, if Vanilla Townie isn't a roleclaim, what would you expect Vanilla Townies to do? Lie? FoS: Muerrto

No one asked him to lie. But claiming townie is what's called a null claim. Why? Because it means nothing. It could mean he's scum and being safe by claiming vanilla or he's actually vanilla. But since he's the only one who knows his role, how do you know which one he is? That's why claiming townie makes no sense since it means nothing.

Now if he's at -1 and we're calling for a RC then yeah, claim it. Claiming it early...and twice now, makes it sound like he's trying to convince people of it. And of course there's no possible way to convince anyone of your role.

[Muerrto]

I was also tracking votes and I must point out that vampy and muerrto seem to stay on the same person together a lot.. on vote counts 4-9 they were on D_O and then on 10-end of the day on Khel..Khel was town, and I am going to assume that d_o is as well. On the 1st count of this day, they are yet again together. It just seemed a little like a voting block to me.

Naw. Me and Vamp play very similar and know each other from another site. If you scan back you'll see I mentioned that. I also said I play very similar to Pless but Pless seems to be ultra conservative in his voting. I'm not throwing mine around, but I'm not that conservative.


My vote won't leave Nelly till I find out what was up with the hammer. I mean, for 3 days we had to watch a locked thread because he hammered before Khel RC'ed. I was like WTF happened.


Anyone who DOESN'T at least somewhat suspect Nelly after that hammer and his subsequent explanation gets my FoS. Definitely. Not saying you have to vote for him but how can you possibly justify the hammer and his explanation that he didn't want an RC?

Also, taking DO's word he was blocked is just like saying 'we believe you're cop and you don't have to show any proof for it'. That's bad too. Everyone should also somewhat suspect DO since he claimed, which is what made everyone shift to Khel and now he's got nothing.


You guys take people's word for it a bit much. This is mafia, people lie. You can't take everything at face value. You're giving people a free ride which is how scum slips by(not you Seraph, you in general).


Questions for everyone:

I'd like to hear everyone's seperate opinion of the cop RC, the block claim, the hammer, and the hammer explanation. These are the 4 worst points in the game so far IMO and they're being brushed off so I'd like everyone to re-examine them and let me know what they say to you specifically and how much you think is true and how much a lie.


To answer my own question, I thought the cop RC was panicked. But I'm not lynching a claimed role on day 1. The block claim is possible, though unlikely. We've got 12 people, the chances of a paranoid doc are pretty slim in this size game.


I thought the hammer was noob. I was like WTF, no RC? Was he tired of the game? Did he want the day to end? What happened? But his explanation is worse and turns noob to scum. The fact that he REALISED he was hammering without an RC and he specifically did it so that Khel COULDN'T claim is bad. Very. Not noob bad, scum bad. Possibly he thought DO had slipped by and he didn't want Khel to do the same? Not sure. But his explanation is crap and I've said as such.


Here's Nelly's post where he voted Khel:

By the way I got the impression that it was scummy in your eyes for me to go on a big rant about Khelv and not vote for him.. If that was the case I can actually say that I was kind of fearful that voting for him right off the back without letting him say some things that might change my mind would be considered scummy. Either way I am casting my vote in this post...

Vote: Khelvaster

So at this point you want Khel to be able to speak just in case he's not scum.

A gut feeling is not enough to vote someone... But a GUT feeling is enough in my mind to Unvote someone...

Unvote: Khelvaster

Vote: Death Omen

This is Omen's 4th vote and around the time everyone's decided he's guilty and needs to be tested. DO then RC's and Nelly responds to DO's RC but DOES NOT unvote. He doesn't unvote till quite a bit later when he hammers Khel.

I believe that Malchonn is corect and that Khelvaster is at L-1. I suggest that no one hammer until we can discuss this cop claim further.

I think we have discused it long enough, he has made a RC and no one including myself is willing to take a chance on day one. KL is the only person who has came close to lynching and is scummy in everyones eyes (Including mine with the exception of my gut feeling).

Hammering on my part would seem odd if I hadn't cast my vote for Khelv already and just recently changed it... I can honestly say that this gut feeling is still with me but like everyone has said "Lynching a claimed cop role is a bad move on day one" so be relatively new to this game I will go with the census and agree that D.O has saved his butt with a claim to be the cop...

Unvote: Death Omen

Vote: Kehlvaster

After 20 days and 14 pages of post I can say that I am ready to end day one and move on (Even though I wasn’t here since day one)...

So if you believed DO's cop claim, why did you leave your vote on? Then even though you believed(supposedly) DO's cop claim you unvote him and hammer Khel in the same post before HE can RC? I still need a better explanation for that.

I also need(after my re-read) and explanation for why you didn't unvote DO in the same post that you claimed you believed him. There's some questions for you.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: This was supposed to be quoted in my last message. This is right after DO's claim where Nelly backed up DO's claim, said it put doubt in his mind etc., but didn't unvote.

Good move Death Omen...

My only question is why would you Role Claim when you have only 4 votes on yourself? You make it seem like we all have worn you down and the truth is that nothing 24 has really changed in the last 24 hours besides me changing my vote your way.

I honestl dont know how to read this role claim...

1) If you are in fact the cop then lynching you would put us deep in hot water..

2) If you are not then you can be trying to draw the real cop out of the water...

example: Khelvster says "Now I know you are scum because I am the cop"

Then you get lynched anyways but now the other Mafia member knows who the cop is and then he ends up dead...

It is interesting to see how everyone else reacts to this and you all play thi game how you want to but my suggestion is IF YOU ARE THE COP and D.O is not DONT SAY ANYTHING...

But good play D.O I am sure you will have people who are on the fence with you rethinking their vote... I know that I wasnt sure and now you put more doubt into my mind...

[Muerrto]

I also think that if there was a real cop..I would hope that they are strongly trying to build a case against D_O and I haven't really seen much of that since he RC'ed either. So, that just gives me more reason to believe that d_o is telling the truth and that the block claim is true as well..I don't see why there is such a slim chance that happened. It definitely causes town to be confused about his claim of cop. Couldn't one of the mafia roles be a role blocker?

Yeah. My question was basically to find who DID if anyone have a case against DO. No one yet so I agree with you on the RC. And yes mafia could've blocked him I'm sure. Nice sleuthing, that's exactly what I was aiming at.

Now, on Nelly's hammer.. I think it was definitely a bad move and not letting Khel defend himself before that came down. However, Khel didn't really indicate (and as shown in his "bah!" post) that he had a role to claim before it came down. It'd be different if he posted and he was like "hey! I'm going to RC" and then the hammer came down from Nelly, but Khel didn't realize. I mean, someone has to be the hammer at some point and when its a mislynch, that hammer is NOT always going to be scum. In fact, I would guess that more than not, it wouldn't be scum.

Now here we disagree. It's not like Khel ever had a chance to say 'hey I'm gonna RC'. His 6th vote came at 8:35 am eastern and he was hammered at 2:31 pm eastern on the same day. Nelly had his vote on DO until soon after the 6th vote where he just all of a sudden hammered. Khel didn't have a chance to post and RC. The problem is you're using Khel's 'Bah' post as reason for the lack of an RC but remember that no one KNEW that Khel had screwed up his roles and therefore that point is moot. Nelly didn't know Khel would've just claimed townie.

Now if Khel HAD claimed vanilla and we lynched him(which most likely would've happened) then that'd be fine. But hammering a mere 6 hours after the 6th vote is placed is definitely what I'd call a speed hammer, an unjustified speed hammer. The fact that Khel was a major power role doesn't help but that point is also moot because even if Nelly were scum he wouldn't know that.

My point with this question was to find out how much leeway people are giving this action. IMO you're possibly backing off an extremely bad move a tad too much. The fact that his explanation was to be frank, a good scum reason for a hammer(to keep from RC'ing?), makes it even worse.

Had Nelly's first post said 'Oh crap sorry guys.' Then I could possibly look at it differently but he came out saying who was suspicious after he had done the scummiest thing in the game so far without even bothering to give an explanation until I hounded him for it. Does that not bother you in the least? Wouldn't the normal townie reaction be 'Crap, I screwed up'? Does he seem remorseful or like he feels he made a mistake or did anything wrong? Can you guage his reactions and his current 'screw this' attitude and say you're pretty sure it was a noob mistake?


Not trying to convince you, that's not my job. Just trying to get you to make sure you look at it from all angles and ignore extra information that wasn't there that seems to be influencing your thinking.

Wouldn't mind an answer to those questions I posed tho.

[Muerrto]

You need to sit back and realize that this is a game and we all cant get bent out of shape over a game!

Sigh. There's one of these in every game. Especially new players. Point out anything I said that's a personal attack please. Point out where I took anything outside the game and brought it in. Point out where I insulted you. If you're not a noob and the hammer wasn't a noob mistake then it was a scum move. Period.

Noob isn't an insult and the sooner people get that the better we'll all be. Noob means you're a newbie. You are new to the game. And you are. It's not insult it's a statement of fact. In a newbie game I'd be more forgiving but this isn't a newbie game.

No where did I become bent out of shape. Read back and see what I called my MO, my playstyle. Witness it.

You messed up. Your explanation was junk and I'm pursuing you for it. I'm not simply saying 'screw it I give up' like you. Am I pursuing only you? Not at all. In fact my last post referenced both you and DO because between the 2 of you I see the 4 most critical points in the game. So I'm asking EVERYONE what they think of those 4 points. If you're taking it personal, sorry.

I'd link a game where I took a hell of a lot longer beating than you have from me(but it's ongoing). I can link a game where I GAVE a hell of a lot longer beating to someone else. If you take these last what, 2 pages?, personal then you need to re-evaluate what you're playing mafia for and how seriously you take it.

I haven't even attacked you, I've asked for explanations. Your answer has been 'FU'. That's just bad play.

[Muerrto]

Just to be clear Muerrto I dont have to explain myself any furthur to you... I have already explained why I hammered Khelvaster and you have made it clear that you understand what I said but it is not good enough for you... Well vote for me then... Oh wait you have!

I am not going back and asking you to explain every vote you made and everytime you kept a vote on with doubt in your mind so dont ask me and expect a answer...

As for this. IMO you do owe an explanation. Why? Welcome to mafia. That's kind of how the game is played. If you can't explain your actions then why did you take them? Why did me mentioning you keeping your vote on DO drive this hateful post of you? Alot of anger in last few posts man. Didn't you just mention something about this being a game?

You told me to post questions and now say you're not answering them? Oh so wait, you mean ANYONE ELSE can post questions and you'll answer them but since you're now 100% convinced I'm scum(sound familiar?) that you're done defending yourself against me and you're refusing to answer any of MY questions. Nice.


Want some quotes from you directed at Khel?

I am about 90 percent convinced that he is scum but NEVER 100 percent until the death has occurred and the role is revealed… I would never be so bold as to state that I am 100 percent sure unless I am a cop and even then I would be afraid of being the insane cop…

In your eyes SIR and that is the problem you are pointing fingers at people who do not see your point of view and that is why I asccuse you of believing you are better at this then the rest of us because you are already convinced of the guilty parties while the rest of us keep a open mind.

So did you wanna take a deep breath, step back, and try again or keep your screw you attitude? Are you not doing the same thing Khel was doing that you blasted him for?

[Muerrto]

No where did I become bent out of shape. Read back and see what I called my MO, my playstyle. Witness it.

Have you ever personally led a mislynch as town because of your MO? I just wonder about it. It has its good points definitely for sure, but it also can cause town to close up and be frustrated. I re-read a bit and I really think that's what's going on with you and Nelly.

Oh definitely. Check out what I said to Pless. The problem with the technique is that some players crack even when they're town. But you can tell the difference between the 'town crack' and the 'scum crack' usually. I use it to spark discussion. No one talks until they're called out and then they get defensive, sometimes angry, sometimes insulting, etc.

I haven't decided which side Nelly's on yet because he simply refuses to acknowledge I'm playing. That's bad for the town no matter what.


But I'm also not calling for his head like he thinks I am. He's got 3 votes and he's acting like I'm bandwagoning him. Heck he had a FOURTH vote before I said for people to slow down. Bandwagon?

[Muerrto]

As a general post. IMO and in my experience, people don't like being accused. I don't like it either. Basically you're calling someone a liar. That's the name of the game. But the problem is when you can't take being called a liar. If I'd ridden you non-stop since the beginning of day 1 you'd have a grievance. I've only started like 1-2 pages ago and haven't gotten mean, haven't called for a lynch, haven't insulted you. Nelly's reaction is what I usually get from new players. They're ticked you don't believe them. But I don't believe any of you and for good reason. So make me believe you. Convince me. That's mafia. The ability to somehow prove you're good and someone else is bad only with your actions and your words. It's poker, bluffing, reading people. If you raise me a ton and have a crap hand and I call I'm basically calling you a liar, right? That's the name of the game.

***************************************************************

2nd Vote Count of Day 2

Muerrto - 1 (Nelly632)
Nelly632 - 2 (vampyrusddg, Muerrto)

Not Voting:

- 7 (death_omen, Hjallti, Malchonn, Plessiez, SeraphicMirth, somestrangeflea, VampaneseHunter)

6 to Lynch

[Muerrto]

Muerrto:

You know what I am a grown man and like a grown man I can step back and accept if I am wrong... I agree with Serp that maybe my comments toward you are out of frustration and my lack of acknowledgement toward you is more then likely a way to give you less ammo to point in my direction... I cannot claim any role to anyone besides plain old townie and I felt like defending myself to you would lead me into hot water and I did not want to get lynched because I may or may not have made a stupid move at the beginning of day two...

I do agree that my actions at the start of this day may have been percived as scum like and there is nothing I can do to change that now...

I will step back now Muerrto and stop assuming you are simply attacking me... I believe you asked a question in regards to D.O and I would appriciate it if you would simply repeat this question and give me a little time to recap my post so I can once again gather the train of thought I was in when I posted...

Thank you very much

All good man. Just hate to see people give up or stop playing because they take it personally. Believe me, I didn't wanna get into this because I'm gonna get blowback for doing this same thing myself in another game but like I said, I haven't attacked you anywhere near as hard as I could. I'm not calling for a lynch, but ATM I'm not removing my vote either.

Questions for everyone:

I'd like to hear everyone's seperate opinion of the cop RC, the block claim, the hammer, and the hammer explanation. These are the 4 worst points in the game so far IMO and they're being brushed off so I'd like everyone to re-examine them and let me know what they say to you specifically and how much you think is true and how much a lie.

[Muerrto]

@Muerrto: Why do you ask me to unvote Nelly and didn't do it yourself? you could as well have put him back on L-3!

Naw. Didn't ask you to unvote him but that might've been how you took it.

Let's hold off on any

more

votes before we hear something please.

This is deja vu

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

Today is the most important day of the game. It needs to be taken slow, and thought out carefully.

[Muerrto]

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. Explain please!

Um..there's 12 people. 1 dies each day and 1 dies each night. So if we lose another town today and another town tonight we have 8 people and 3 scum. That makes the next day 6 people and 3 scum. That's lose.

So if we mislynch today we're in LYLO. If you were actually legitimately asking that's cool but you seem to keep trying to find things in stuff I say(like the WIFOM thing) that you can use to cast suspiscion on me even though what I said made perfect sense.

Two mislynches means day 3 is LYLO and day 4 is lost.

[Muerrto]

When you say Two mislynches, does that include the D1 lynch?

Yes. On day 2 we have 10 ppl, 3 scum(always 3 scum in a 12 person mini btw Flea, understand why you didn't get my figures at first tho). On day 3 we have 8 people, 3 scum. This is LYLO. On day 4 we lose. In otherwords we don't play out day 4 assuming someone dies on night 3. If we mislynch today we're stuck in LYLO for the rest of the game until we get a scum lynch unless the scum miss a kill somehow(deadline, doctor, etc.). That's why this day is the most important. It's our only chance to avoid LYLO.

[Muerrto]

3. As to why deathsauce was whacked at n1, maybe its because he wanted to give Khel a chance which he said so in post (331) and the scum obviously did not want this and wanted night to intiaite pronto.

I'm going to go with my n1 investigation and my gut instinct.
Vote:Malchonn

Go ahead flame me 8)

Um..glad to. You just did the same thing you did on day 1. You said you thought the scum didn't want discussion and ended the day and then voted for vote 6, the one made BEFORE Sauce's post about discussion, and not the hammer.

You also didn't answer any questions I posted regarding the hammer. In fact, the fact that you just placed a vote on Malchonn for bringing Khel to lynch -1 and didn't even list any suspiscion for Nelly at all is extremely disturbing.

I can only chalk these mistakes up to being new to the game so many times. Here's some questions that might help you bring your thoughts more in line:

1. What has Malchonn done besides the lynch -1 vote?

2. Where are the Seraph/Malchonn links?

3. What has Seraph done period that's scummy(other than the godfather misunderstanding which I think was an actual misunderstanding)?

4. Why the vote for Malchonn and not Seraph if you think they're both scummy?

5. Since your 'investigation' failed, you're plain town today. Why did you just happen to vote for the same person you investigated?

6. As I said above, why the vote for Malchonn without even a word mentioned about Nelly?


For now I'm

FoS: DO

again. This vote is not only out of the blue but these 'links', I'd love to see you show those. Besides Pless, Seraph seems to be about as close to town as you can get(assuming the godfather thing wasn't misdirection). I want some serious evidence on Seraph to back up your claim.


Now as for Malchonn, I gotta slightly agree with Vamp here, he's been alot quieter than he normally is. But then again he was quiet in our last game on the other site too due to RL stuff so I'm definitely not ready to vote him. As for lynching him for being quiet? Never a good reason. He hasn't done anything scummy yet to my eyes, just been quiet. That's not a reason to lynch.

I'd also like to know why you chose Malchonn to investigate on night 1. If for no real solid reason then you're really just flipping a coin on your vote here, right? Logic over chance please.

[Muerrto]

@ Muerrto personally: You rushed to his defence real quick, surprising...

Lol reread my post. I said he's lurking just like you did. I just said I won't vote/lynch him for that.

I defended Seraph. If you replace Seraph w/Nelly I cann see some links, but not many. Altho Nelly did vote for Malchonn right off the bat then take it back as a 'test'.

Still, makes no sense to go for Malchonn instead of Nelly. Nelly hammered, and he responded to Sauce about discussion, not Malchonn.

Never defended Malchonn, he's lurking. But I think it's RL stuff cause I know him. Not lynching him for that. Never defended or cleared him tho. I defended Seraph, that was your mistake not mine.

But yeah...um I've got my vote on Nelly so I think you can see my thoughts on him from that.


Your post makes alot more sense when you accuse the right people lol

[Muerrto]

As strong as my convictions towards you are Muerrto, I must admit that your words continue to remain consistently pro town as they remained from day one... My vote was based on actions that I believe to be false as of right now, nothing you have done since my vote was cast on you has confirmed it more in my eyes but on the contrary loosen it in my eyes... Too sum it up; I would like to remove my vote toward you with a final statement...

"Either you are a sincere townie who has our interest at heart or a GREAT Mafia member who has perfected this game"

Unvote: Muerrto

Lol I hate meta gaming but you can ask around how much of a master at this game I am. I'm pretty damn good in person but online I come off as rough, combative etc. Always end up being suspect.

As for you being town? I can possibly see the hammer being a mistake, a bad one but possibly a mistake. The problem is I have a bad habit of believing that too often and letting scum slip by me for too long with that argument. For now my vote stands but I'm definitely not looking for more to pile on. As I said, this is our last chance to avoid LYLO. LYLO sucks. This should be a long day.

***************************************************************

3rd Vote Count of Day 2

Nelly632 - 2 (vampyrusddg, Muerrto)
Malchonn - 1 (death_omen)

Not Voting:

- 6 (Hjallti, Malchonn, Nelly632, Plessiez, SeraphicMirth, somestrangeflea, VampaneseHunter)

6 to Lynch

[Muerrto]

Just checking in. My day off and I don't usually check.

Just wanted to mention Malchonn's post about me voting too early and too often?

My vote's on Nelly and hasn't moved. He's only at 3 votes. Just because he

could

be town doesn't mean I'm convinced enough to remove my vote. But as for voting early and often? Naw. The only votes I ever made day 1 were for Khel and DO.

Day 2 only Nelly. Sorry, just not seeing what you're seeing.

[Muerrto]

Well, Pless, I think I disagree.

Gotta agree with Seraph here. I see you both as town but I don't see at all where those 2 quotes contradict. In one Seraph is saying the cop shouldn't come forward and straight claim. In the other she's saying since no one's built a case yet his claim seems solid.

That's exactly the response I was looking for with my question. You can make a case against someone without straight claiming. If someone claimed cop now they should be stoned. We already lost DO(if he's a cop), losing another power role either to a block or a kill would be a waste. This is a mini, we could have another cop role be it the inventor(Sauce) or a Jack of all trades. In fact we DID have another cop most likely and if he was able to hand off the invention he made we might have another.

A counter-claim in a mini game means nothing. A CASE against DO would mean something because if I were a cop I'd have checked his claim last night.

[Muerrto]

Well, first off, if anybody counter-claimed omen, we'd know omen isn't a cop. So losing two power roles obviously isn't an option. (At least ... I don't think that there's any real chance of there being two cops in a mini. If anybody can point to a game where there has been, obviously I'm wrong and you can ignore the rest of this post ).

True. But on top of that I'd assume ANY kind of cop role would have checked out DO's story last night anyway so we'd have a case being brought against him, if not a full claim. So we can be pretty sure that:

A) DO's a cop

B) We have no other cop.


Unless of course the real cop didn't think of that and checked someone else. Or unless Sauce was our 'cop'. Knowing the mod from our other site I know that we play with alot of crazy roles because they're more fun than the plain ones. I could see the game having an inventor and a jack of all trades and no plain cop/doc. That's not to say I don't believe DO's claim but it's possible we don't have a counter claim AND he's not a cop. You seem to be leaving out that possibility so I thought I'd mention it.

And with Khel being a Vig(we love lots of night kills in our games) so far the game fits the MO. A plain cop in our games is weird.

That said(watch me contradict myself) I doubt our ONLY cop role is an inventor. That'd suck. So I still think DO's claim is straight unless someone forgot to check him last night. Which would just be a horribly bad play if there's another cop.

So for now we have no choice but to take him at his word.


Participation has dropped off sharply recently tho and I've yet to see the answer to my questions from some of you. Also another question:

Who do you suspect most right now and why? Would you be willing to lynch them at this point for your suspiscions? Are they lurking/posting?

There we go. Discuss.

[Muerrto]

So I still think DO's claim is straight unless someone forgot to check him last night. Which would just be a horribly bad play if there's another cop.

I disagree with this Muerrto, I wouldn't have investigated him last night, and would have been glad of it, especialy with 2 other power roles offed in the night, I would assume he's scum and leave it on a back burner to see if there was something linking him with other players and investigate them, trying to cath as much scum as possible with one swoop.

Interesting take. Not saying I agree but interesting. I'd rather investigate DO so I know if I can trust him or not, as evidenced by my night0 investigation of you in our last game. I like knowing whether I can take someone's arguments at face value.

So to answer your question, I'll take i one step further and go for my hall of scum:

Nelly632
SeraphicMirth
SSF or VH

Again interesting. I still say I think Seraph and Pless are the most town players so far but that could just be scum acting very town(WIFOM). As for Nelly I'm still ready to lynch him and mantain my vote on him. His explanation for the hammer was bad. If it was a mistake it was unfortunately a damning one IMO.

[Muerrto]

Interesting take. Not saying I agree but interesting. I'd rather investigate DO so I know if I can trust him or not, as evidenced by my night0 investigation of you in our last game. I like knowing whether I can take someone's arguments at face value.

Maybe, but the big difference here is I had no RC at that point, you were just going for someone you'd like to know was town or could be a hard scum to catch with a one-shot ability

Well the 1-shot only matters on the timing of the RC but yeah, it was just pick a person to trust or not so it's a little different. Still, if I had an investigative role I'd have checked DO night 1 no question. I'd wanna know if we could trust his investigations and if not, then I'd have to rely solely on my own and somehow convince everyone else of that without RC'ing and getting myself killed.

So are you saying that you believe DO's claim because it's simply believable since you don't expect a cop to come forward? Or you don't believe it because even if there is another cop he wouldn't come forward?

[Muerrto]

It’s hard for me to post anything about my reasons for suspecting Muerrto but I can say that my play style and his always butts heads. I am newer to the Mafia (4 or 5 games under my belt) and I can never seem to grasp what the hell he is saying, "what does he actually mean by that?" He throws me for a loop. Example Post #465 He starts of by agreeing to part of what Ples is saying, but Ples's overall was saying that he was doubting the existence of the scum blocker, later in that same post Muerrto says

So for now we have no choice but to take him at his word.

Meaning D.O is the cop and he was RB'd. I just never know where he stands.

Naw, not contradicting, just agreeing and disagreeing with him at the same time. My point was that just because there's no counter claim doesn't mean DO's a cop. We may not have a plain old 'cop'. Sauce as an inventor would usually got a 'cop' ability. We could also have a jack of trades or something. What I was saying was that knowing Vel from our games, a lack of a plain cop wouldn't be surprising. So I'm not expecting a counter claim.

However, I'm disagree with him that a case wouldn't happen. Like I said, if I had a cop ability, even if I wasn't a plain cop, I'd have checked DO out last night. That way I'd know if I could trust his findings. So since no one's bringing a case against him(although it can be slightly argued that Hjalti and Pless are somewhat, what is you two's stance on the claim?), we have no choice but to trust him for now.

Clearer?

[Muerrto]

Ok, I've read through and I just have to vote VampanzeHunter yet again. Too many contradictions, even from like page 1.

Yeah but look at all those points. To me you pointed out alot of nervousness, I don't really see any scum tells. Now look at how he's playing, nervous, barely posting. He's obviously new to the game. Without harder evidence I can't bring myself to vote him.

Now I AM notoriously bad at allowing newbies to get away with murder because they're new and I chalk it up to that. So I might be way off and crazy too.

[Muerrto]

As I have explained numerous times, I placed my hammer vote on him because I believed that everyone was placing to much trust and emphasis on the Roleclaims and that we would never exit Day 1 if we continued to allow people to RC... Obviously I was torn between Khelvaster & DO voting wise and I was determined in my mind to vote one of the two off in Day one based on my thoughts... Once the majority stated that they refused to vote off a claimed cop role on day 1 I felt there was a good possibilty that DO was lying and got out of hot water simply based on a RC and now I was left with simply placing a vote on Khelvaster who was the other suspect in my mind. Once he got to -1 and I began to see the writting on the wall and knew that a RC from him would place myself and everyone else in a delima and possibly save him on day one with no actual proff to back up his RC... But you have to understand that this was not my main goal, I didnt cast the hammer completely based on preventing him from RC, I had spoken before my vote about how I believed Khelvaster to be scum and placed my vote on him before... It is not like I came out of the blue without ever casting a FOS on Khelvaster and Hammered him...

Sometimes in this game we stick our neck out and if it results in a SCUM lynch you have been cleared in the eyes of your fellow townies but if it results in the lynch of a fellow townie then you are left holding the bag and SCUM if right there trying to bury you...

If there was a wooden beam holding a building together and everyday someone came by with a AX and took a swing at this beam... Then one day a person comes by and takes that final swing that brings the building tumbling down... Then everyone looks at the person who took the final swing and ignores the other people who took the swings that contributed to the building coming down, how does that make sense? A hammer is not what caused Khelvaster to be lynched a MAJORITY VOTE caused him to be lynched and everyone has failed to look at that majority and has layed the blame entirely on the HAMMER VOTE...

Ok, first off, this post is a plea to emotion and isn't going to help your case. It did however hurt your case.

Once the majority stated that they refused to vote off a claimed cop role on day 1 I felt there was a good possibilty that DO was lying and got out of hot water simply based on a RC and now I was left with simply placing a vote on Khelvaster who was the other suspect in my mind.

Really? Are you sure of that?

Good move Death Omen...

My only question is why would you Role Claim when you have only 4 votes on yourself? You make it seem like we all have worn you down and the truth is that nothing 24 has really changed in the last 24 hours besides me changing my vote your way.

I honestl dont know how to read this role claim...

1) If you are in fact the cop then lynching you would put us deep in hot water..

2) If you are not then you can be trying to draw the real cop out of the water...

example: Khelvster says "Now I know you are scum because I am the cop"

Then you get lynched anyways but now the other Mafia member knows who the cop is and then he ends up dead...

It is interesting to see how everyone else reacts to this and you all play thi game how you want to but my suggestion is IF YOU ARE THE COP and D.O is not DONT SAY ANYTHING...

But good play D.O I am sure you will have people who are on the fence with you rethinking their vote... I know that I wasnt sure and now you put more doubt into my mind...

This post sure doesn't look like you disbelieved the claim. In fact it sounds like you backed him up pretty good. So what's the difference between Khel RC'ing and DO RC'ing?

If there was a wooden beam holding a building together and everyday someone came by with a AX and took a swing at this beam... Then one day a person comes by and takes that final swing that brings the building tumbling down... Then everyone looks at the person who took the final swing and ignores the other people who took the swings that contributed to the building coming down, how does that make sense? A hammer is not what caused Khelvaster to be lynched a MAJORITY VOTE caused him to be lynched and everyone has failed to look at that majority and has layed the blame entirely on the HAMMER VOTE...

Yes. But in this situation it was more like, everyone took weeks between each swing then just when it was ready to fall and we decided to try and rethink whether we WANTED it to fall, you knocked everyone out of the way and kicked it in. It was a speedhammer. If it was a noob move, learn from it. But it was less than 12 hours between the 6th vote and the hammer. And Khel being a major power role doesn't make it look any better. Granted whether you're town or scum you wouldn't know his role but it still affects people's opinions of the situation. NEVER stop someone from RC'ing.

[Muerrto]

You all believe that RC is good and I believe it is not... Plain and simple...

If you don't believe the RC can you explain your post I just quoted above?

I'm not here to bury you, I'm here to figure out if you're lying or not, that's mafia. You're contradicting yourself, that's suspect.

[Muerrto]

Getting mad, using caps, and voting yourself. Not helping much.

[Muerrto]

If you can tell me why you started to play mafia that'd be cool. Hell, when the game ends I'll link you a game where I took a 16 page beating. You're over-reacting.

[Muerrto]

This is stupid. Nelly, you're sitting here saying we don't know how to play mafia because we suspect you? We don't know your role genius! And now you're personally insulting everyone in the game and saying in your OTHER games people know how to play mafia? Whatever, check your join date and compare it with some others. Then realise that some people have been playing this game a hell of alot longer than you. Then shut up. Someone hammer him, or ban him, or just replace him. What a damn baby.

[Muerrto]

Oh and here's your free lesson in mafia that I've already given you but I'll be sure to give again since you think we suspect you because you hammered.

DON'T speed hammer. Ever. IF you do speed hammer, have a good explanation for it. DON'T block an RC. Ever. IF you do block an RC, have a good explanation for it.

We don't suspect you because you hammered, we suspect you because you speed hammered then gave a crappy explanation for it.

However, now you couldn't PAY me to remove my vote from you.

Like I said, this is mafia. The game where people call each other liars. If you can't deal, don't play.

[Muerrto]

VH, hammering isn't inherently bad. Don't ever be scared to hammer someone you think is scum. No one's going to attack you tomorrow for hammering Nelly. His attitude is hammering himself.

That said I'd like you to wait so we can hear from Pless and Seraph. Pless said he's doing a re-read.

[Muerrto]

His explanation made sense to me.

to clarify: his explanation made sense to me for why he personally did it. It wasn't a good reason..fear of a chain of RC's..because, that can be solved by just discussing more. I think it was just lack of experience error.

Also truth. But his lack of experience error and him now telling all of us we have no clue how to play? Not cool.

[Muerrto]

My god lets all listen to Muerrto because he goes by JOIN dates... NOOB lol... Come on guys lets vote me off already so you all can be a Lunch or lose...

Are you three? Jesus. First you personally attack everyone for 'not knowing how to play'. Now you call me a noob?

You wanna get personal? Let's get personal.

YOU speed hammered. YOU thought RC'ing was bad. YOU made the noob mistake(if it was a mistake) and EVERYONE agrees those were both BAD moves. So who's the noob?

I agree with Flea, let's get him replaced whether he requests or not. Bleh.

[Muerrto]

Muerrto - Also FOSes a lot, but rarely votes. The 3 people that he FOSed/was questioning more heavily/ranked as his most suspicious near the start were Khel, Omen and Sauce. Khel and Sauce turned up town, and Omen is most likely town.
Went after Nelly heavily, also someone I suspect is most likely town.

When he questions/posts/responds to these people..he likes to interject things/summarize what they say but put a little twist on it...it's slight but here's one example:

It would be dead right now if Muertto wasnt accusing people left right and center , he seems keen to pick up on every single post targeted against him with strong comebacks.

Lets see now... Vote:Muerrto

Sooo you're voting me because I'm actually posting as opposed to lurking like most of the other players? That was the worst reason yet.

That is not *quite* what death_omen said, but Muerrto repackaged it as such.

Has been fairly quiet recently.

I dunno, Muerrto confuses me. He seems town cuz he posts a lot of content and seems genuine in investigating/asking questions, but most of that content is aimed at players that I believe to be town/were killed and came up town..so it's tough to say. He could play pretty good scum, I imagine. That's the way I'm leaning on Muerrto.

Question for Muerrto: Your vote is still on Nelly. Is he the lynch for today? Do you think he's scum or do you think he's noob town?
Question 2: You were the one that brought up that today's correct lynch is important to stay out of LYLO tomorrow. How will that affect your voting before the deadline for this day?

Twist? Interesting. Hindsight is 20/20 but you can't use it to justify your actions. Everyone suspected DO and Khel before DO's claim. So now because I also suspected them and I currently suspect the one who actually hammered one of them I'm suspect? Yet Nelly suspected both of them(as did pretty much everyone) and even lynched one before he could RC and you think he's town? Your whole argument against me is WIFOM. No one knew they were town and unless you're scum(not an accusation, I still think you and Pless are the most pro-town atm) you don't know that Nelly's town either.

My suspiscions are different from yours, and on day 1 my suspiscions were dead on with everyone else's, and sadly wrong. But saying because I suspect townies I'm scum is definite WIFOM. Just about everyone suspected both DO and Khel. Some people still do suspect DO. Some people currently suspect Nelly.

As for the lynch for today? If he shapes up and defends himself properly, possibly not if something better comes along. If he continues how he's been? Screw him. I mean DO even simply asked him not to use ................ So what's he do? Says hell no, holds his breath till he turns blue, then uses them more. What is that?

I still think he's scum, not noob town. The blow up is over the top, the explanation for the hammer is bad, and his lack of defense is bad as well. Now if I'm wrong I'm sure you'll bring fire on me for it but at my last count a few other people are voting for him other than me right now. Same for DO, same for Khel.

[Muerrto]

Yeah, but you have to see what I'm saying. your ONLY suspects have been 2 people who turned out town, one who is most likely town (omen) and maybe Nelly is town (I believe so, others don't..that's fine).

So..you were wrong on 2 counts and probably on 2 others. I dunno. I respect where you're coming from...it makes sense..which is why you confuse me, as I said

Well if you scan back it was Sauce that had suspiscion of me, not the other way around. I said I was watching him because he seemed crafty and he said the same of me.

As for being possibly wrong on 2 others, you're projecting your view of Nelly as town and my view of Nelly as scum and saying mine is wrong. Yet if you're town you don't know that so saying yours is simply more right is wrong. That might've sounded confusing but you get the idea.

So I was for sure wrong once on Khel, and so was everyone else. I could possibly be wrong on Nelly and DO but that's not confirmed, I'm not convinced, and we'll never know till they're lynched, night killed, or end game.

[Muerrto]

Vampanezehunter is suspect to me simply based on some of his actions which can be interputed in numerous ways. His time away from the game on vacation can be held suspect if it was proveable that he was lying (Which I am not claiming). By claming to be on vacation a person can sit back and allow the game to take place without being help under suspicion for lurking. But what strikes me as odd is his reluctance to hammer me, I understand that he probably didnt want to hammer me then suffer my fate the next day but I think he took it to another level. He had plenty of time and just cause to do the dirty work and no one would have blamed him but his hesitation struck me as scummy. Then his last post is written like someone who is sure I am scum and if he was given the choice to lynch me he would, kind of like someone being confronted by a tough guy and being quite then when the tough guy walks away they run their mouth. Maybe that was a bag analogy a better thought is he didnt want to be the one to hammer and once he saw that I MIGHT be able to get myself out of a bind he came out and said a few things in hopes of swinging the votes my way again and getting the job done...

Well I am sitting here right now telling you all that I am Roleclaiming Townie and I would hope that you all take this Roleclaim and listen to it as too prevent a Lynch Or Lose situation.

Please don't get pissed at me again if I respond to this post first off.

A. I don't like even insinuating VH lied about vacation. That's an absolutely horrible reason to suspect someone.

B. Overly hesitating, like he did, is less of a scum tell and more of a town tell. Especially if it'll cause LYLO if we're wrong.

C. That's your third RC for vanilla. Excessive at best.

D. I thought I was your #1 suspect. But now that some attention is being brought towards someone else you shift? Do you no longer suspect me or suspect him more?


VH seems to be really new, and kind of off the wall. He also said at some point that he was only 13. These 3 things explain every 'scum tell' IMO. Some people may disagree and like I said I have a history of ignoring scum tells as newbie tells. But I'm definitely not ready to switch off Nelly especially after his quick shift to VH.

[Muerrto]

I still suspect you as a matter of fact you were on that post right above VH with a long list of stuff I thought about you. Before I posted it I erased it all because I hoped that by not mentioning you in my post you would not feel the need to try to disect everything I say. But that was my mistake.

I think personally it looks like you are trying to defend VH by claming that he is simply a young person and that is why he appears to be scummy. The problem I see with you is that you refuse to have a open mind in this game like you have admited, you get your heart set on voting someone off and no matter what they say you will not see anything else besides what you want to see. Either that is a problem or it is your scummy side coming out. You have refused to examine the list of people that voted for Khelvaster and continued to hold your vote on me with standing the numerous roleclaims I have stated in my post.

First off, welcome to mafia. I know I've said that a few times but I apparently have to say it again. That's why there are so many quotes in people's posts. This is mafia. Everyone goes through every post with a fine tooth comb and picks out the inconsistencies. If you don't want me to dissect what you say, you may not be in the right place.

Second, I already claimed to be defending VH in a way by placing him under a protective 'newbie' sign. I also already stated that sometimes that bites me in the butt. But sadly, that's not something I can simply

choose

to change. All his tells can be seen as either one(newbie or scum) and I still see them as newbie, whether that's right or not. I defended VH on day 1 with the same argument. Now whether other people see it that way or not is their business, but this is nothing new. I didn't just all of a sudden jump in front of VH to protect him from the mob. Pless asked me on day 1 if I assume everyone's town till I have reason to believe otherwise and I said yes.

As for examining the list of people who voted Khel? I'm on that list and I know my role so how does looking at the other votes help? I have no doubt there's both town and scum on that list as almost everyone suspected Khel. But you're the hammer, the speed hammer, and the reason we never found out he was a vig. That's what I'm examining. How is looking at the other votes more important than that?

Step back, pretend it WASN'T you that hammered but it was someone else, at the same speed, for the same reason. You're telling me you wouldn't be a bit suspiscious? You're not suspiscious only because it's you. To the rest of us it was a very big tell. If you can look at it from a 3rd person view I think you'll understand a bit better.

[Muerrto]

By keeping your vote on me I can come to no other conclusion then to assume that you are infact Scum and will not change your vote regardless.

Unvote: Vote: Muerrto

Bolding everything you say is getting old. And this vote is straight OMGUS because I'm voting you. You even state that yourself.

Vote stands.

[Muerrto]

I'm currently not feeling an urge to unvote Nelly (the analysis was, IMHO, not up to par), however I can say that I'm feeling Nelly's arguements against Muerrto. We've dissected the speed-hammer as much as we can. Can you use it as reasoning for suspicion? Yes. But you keep bringing it up and hacking at Nelly with the same argument over and over again, and it seems as though you're desperately trying to get this to stick.

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

As for Nelly's RC, I'm not going to try to explain how town isn't an RC. I'll simply put it this way. If you're under suspiscion, and you claim vanilla town, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? If you're under suspiscion, and you claim cop, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? In both cases, nothing. But you're forced to back off the power role for fear they're telling the truth. If you EVER back off someone who claims town it's a bad play. Because if you won't lynch someone who claims town, who will you lynch?

Hell, I guess I did go ahead and explain it. In fact, here's a pretty quote:


If you're willing to vote to lynch someone based on no claim at all, a townie claim should NEVER dissuade you. If you're not willing to lynch someone you find scummy and who doesn't, by their own admission, have a powerrole, then who are you ever going to be willing to lynch?


That's why town is a null claim. You may be telling the truth, you may not. But your claim doesn't and shouldn't affect anyone's suspiscion in either direction.

[Muerrto]

What I don't get though, is why you even brought up the roleclaim? My post was about the fact that you kept bringing up the Speed-Hammer. In all honesty, the role claim was, with regards to this conversation, irrelevent. It seems as though that entire post was giving an answer to a question which I didn't ask, which seems really weird...

I was answering Nelly's post above yours just doing it all in 1 post.

[Muerrto]

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

...which doesn't actually defend against the points I've mede.

Of course it does. My point is that there were most likely both scum and town on Khel's lynch. It's pointless to look at the order or timing to try and decide who is scum that way. Looking at people's posts, interactions etc is how you find scum. Remember that scum know who's town but town doesn't. So how does looking at a list of people who lynched town help us nail scum?

Now looking at the hammer, the timing, the reason etc. does. It was either a bad move or a scum move. If someone wants to bring up a better suspect I'm all ears but for now Nelly's my top suspect. Am I 100%? Of course not. But there has to be an order to suspiscion and he's my top at the moment. Nelly obviously doesn't like that he's my top suspect and is therefore voting me.

[Muerrto]

Now, your post has listed the benefits of examining the hammer, which are valid points, but that's not actually a defence against "you're bringing up the hammer too much". Yes, examining the hammer will bring some evidence, but my point is that I feel that we got as much information as we can out of it at the start of the Day, and that your persistance to attack Nelly with it looks slightly suspicious.

Not really. In fact it's been a while since I've attacked him for it. My vote hasn't moved and recently it's been more about trying to convince him how claiming town doesn't alleviate my suspicion, as it shouldn't.

I mention the hammer only when he talks about how I'm not looking at the people who voted for Khel, as if the hammer wasn't a vote for Khel. That's suspicious.

Honestly I think he's scum, so discussing him at all further is pointless. But no one's brought up any other suspects except for myself, which I of course disagree on, and VH, who I still see as kind of off-the-wall newbie. Could my assessment of VH be wrong? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that I still see Nelly as #1 suspect, hence my vote.

Does anyone else have any other suspects? Because I haven't seen any others brought up.

But since we're getting 2 replacements that doesn't really matter at the moment. Let's wait, let them read up, and hear what they have to say.

[Muerrto]

But you're the hammer, the speed hammer, and the reason we never found out he was a vig. That's what I'm examining.

Can I ask you a hypothetical questions...

Assuming I allowed Khelvaster to Role Claim before I Hammered him and he stated that he was simply a Townie. Which is exactly what he would have claimed if given a chance, he would not have claimed Vig. Would you be attacking me as much over my Hammer & if yes why?

Not at all. If you want me to link a game where I hammered someone immediately after they claimed town I will. It just ended a couple days ago. I got crap for it the next day because they were town and I had to explain in that game as well that town=null claim. The IC's in the game of course understood but the newbies were like, not always. So I was like, then how do you ever lynch when someone claims town? One of the newbies actually said they'd roll a die. I was like ok, you no longer get to speak.

So if Khel claimed town and you hammered would I have ANY suspiscion for you? No. Honestly besides the hammer and your explanation you've exhibited no scum tells. Look at my opinion of you on day 1. But the problem is, if he'd claimed town that would be on him, not you. Him not being able to claim is on you.

And no, I'm not bringing up the hammer again just replying to your post. That's what I meant by not bringing it up. In fact I'm not sure I've posted without it simply being a reply in several days.

Actually I should amend that. Lot of personal crap going on here in real life(called the cops last night, we'll leave it at that) and I have been quiet recently as Seraph(I think it was Seraph) said. I'll try to do a full re-read since it's my day off tomorrow and give a full synopsis of all players.

[Muerrto]

Thank you for your complete honesty on this subject and it would appear that by speed hammering Khelvaster I ultimately brought this heat upon myself because with him being mistaken about his role if I would have waited I could have avoided this horrible day two experience.

I cannot go back in time I can simply move on with this game in hopes of avoiding my lynch which would be another townie dead to end day 2. Puting your own feelings aside can you please give me a ideal of who your top 3 might be at this time. Obviously I am number one but I am curious to see what the other two names might be.

BAM!

Unvote

Thank you. That's all I need to say.

Now the question is, who else has an actual suspect? Crap.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: More tomorrow like I said

[Muerrto]

Due to a personal situation I'm probably not going to get a re-read done today. Sorry. Hopefully in the next couple days.

[Muerrto]

Ok, synopsis. First off I have to mention that pretty much anything anyone said day 1 is pretty much pointless because everyone pretty much suspected DO or Khel or both and if we assume DO's RC is good then we were all wrong for the most part. So this'll mainly focus on day 2. Here we go:


DO - Honestly, we can argue this till we're dead(and we seem to be doing just that). We have no choice but to believe him for now. If we reach LYLO and he's still no good to us and we have no other suspects, maybe. But until then arguing his claim is moot.


Hjalti - No real read. Seems to follow alot rather than start his own lines of reasoning but that's common. Doesn't leap onto easy targets. Unvoted Nelly when I said to slow down and not add any more votes then called me on not unvoting when I told him to unvote. I didn't like that but I can definitely see that as a possible misunderstanding.


Malchonn/Aimee - Got alot of flack for his lynch -1 vote. But if you read his post #12 I can see his reasoning. In our games people don't die before an RC. Period. He never expected Khel to be hammered that fast. He also didn't jump all over DO when DO said even though he was blocked he was sure Malchonn was scum and voted him. Which, I think we can all agree is crap logic. Malchonn could've used that to start building a case against DO. However, now he's been replaced so we'll have to see. Malchonn usually gives a bit more content than he has so I'm watching him but we'll have to see the amount of content Aimee brings.


WLC/Nelly - Pretty much

FoS: Nelly

till he's dead or end game. The hammer and combined explanation hurt. The final realization that what he did was a bad play and that no one did it but himself helps. Becoming defensive and attacking others when you mess up instead of saying 'oops' hurts. Was the hammer noob or scum? Who knows. Is there a better suspect? I hope so when I'm done w/this re-read. But if he has no problem with me holding him under a newbie shield and excusing the speed hammer, why have a problem with me saying VH's playstyle is because he's young and new? I don't like the double standard. You may know your role, but we don't. You've RC'd town ALOT and the small explosion earlier didn't help. You've calmed some but immediately jumped on VH the second you came back. Alot of wagon jumping I don't like. Like I said, we'll have to see where my vote falls when this re-read is done b/c someone needs to be lynched and you're still #1 in my book even though I unvoted you.


Pless - Dear god his posts are longer than mine. Try checking the htread with just his posts, it's insane. Either town or scum who'll never get lynched. I stand by the former as I've said all game.


Hyphen/Seraph - My thinking is still town but I don't like her approach to a couple subjects.

A) The whole thing about how I restate other's words but twist them? I didn't quite see that. In fact all through day 1 everyone supported the reason to vote for DO, that he said I was posting too much basically, even Seraph. But now that it's day 2 that's changed? Hindsight.

B) And even though you're highly suspect of VH for his newbie/scum tells, you've completely dismissed Nelly for the same thing. Now granted you may be right but can you take 2 similar situations and see them that juxtaposed? Doesn't make sense to me.

c) The worst though is when she was saying that I was wrong FOUR times because I suspected Khel, DO, Nelly, and Sauce. As for Sauce, as I mentioned earlier, read back and you'll see that didn't exist. As for Nelly that's up in the air and I'm not convinced. Other people aren't convinced either, some are. I'm not sure how that makes Nelly go under this list of people who I've suspected that are wrong. As for Khel/DO, as I said earlier almost everyone suspected one or the other or both on day 1. I'm not sure how that gets lumped in on me.

Seems to be stretching to find a reason to suspect me. Despite all this I still see town, I think we just go about things a different way. Pless asked me day 1 if I assume everyone's town at the start and then go from there. Seraph seems to go the opposite direction but I think that's dangerous IMO. Different playstyles though.


Flea - Still holding on Nelly. Doesn't leap around alot on votes even if he does on FoS's. Obviously doesn't like WIFOM and jumps on posts he thinks he caught a slip on. I like that, good way to find real slips. He's jumped on me several times for my posts then when I explained in my response he's backed off accordingly. Good level playing. I'll be floored if he's scum. I want to see more content though. You've stepped it up alot since day 1 but still alot of 1-liners. Can we get a full synopsis when you get a chance?


VH - First off don't get offended at anything I say here. He's 13, he's new, he posts in nothing but 1 liners and he's jumping all over the place with his votes and his suspiscions. Without the first two things I'd say those are large scum tells. With the first two I can't be that sure.

Could

he be scum? Of course. Have I seen enough to lynch him? Not a chance. He had more than enough time to hammer Nelly and didn't. He could've done so and avoided any suspiscion even if Nelly came up town. Everyone was ready at that point for Nelly's lynch. It was in the middle of his tirade. VH legitamitely didn't want to lynch Nelly IMO. Now granted his attack on Nelly later contradicts this but I think that's just OMGUS. See his post #67 where he tells Nelly thanks alot for voting him when VH didn't hammer. He then FoS's Nelly. Definite OMGUS.


Vampdog - Another one I've played with alot. He posts about as much as me and Pless usually but lately due to RL issues he's been alot more silent. Another one who sees VH as scum instead of newbie but ALSO saw Nelly as scum instead of newbie so at least is consistent. I love post #27 which is an obvious reference to me brow beating someone till I get the response I'm looking for(it did take a while this time, didn't it?). He's apparently satisfied as well. His vote for VH more than anything makes me wonder if I'm shielding VH a bit too much with 'newbie' claims. Me and Vamp usually share the same ideas(as noticed by Seraph earlier) so if he thinks VH's tells are scum tells I may have to do yet another re-read.

@Vamp - Are you voting VH because you think his incosistent voting/FoS'ing is scummy or because we're deadlined and he's the highest suspect on your list?

I won't vote VH period until I hear his opinion on the matter.


In conclusion, I guess my top 3 suspects would either be:

1) Nelly - the hammer, sorry.
2) Hjalti - followers who lay low bother me.
3) Seraph - even though I've stated multiple times I think you're town, see below.

If I stick with the VH=newbie. If I switch to VH=scum:

1) VH - alot of incosistent posts.
2) Nelly - for reasons stated above.
3 ) Hjalti - ditto


Seraph falls off my list as the only reason I suspect her is because she's hounding VH who above I see as newbie and below as scum. I also no longer put her on the list because I think the only reason she's suspecting me is because I'm defending VH so much. If I switch to the VH=scum list I'm no longer defending and therefore am no longer worried about Seraph hounding him.

There's my post on everyone. Some more than others and some questions in there so please read, don't skim. I guarantee it took longer to write than read.

[Muerrto]

I'm not taking any offense here. I appologise for not posting more that one liners. I find it hard to do that. I'm not sure whether I should continue playing Mafiascum. I'm useless as town, not much better as scum. I'll continue playing this game(unless you want to replace me). I should really get an award for being worst player. Anyway now that I look back at the lynch thing I think I might have made a mistake. But I'm not sure.

Lol dude slow down. You're not bad, just new and possibly a tad shy/nervous/anxious whatever you wanna call it. You'll get used to it more and be posting essays in no time. But it does take time. Don't give up if you enjoy it.

[Muerrto]

First, sorry for the double post but Seraph posted while I was typing my first one.


First off, welcome and excellent first post. We need more people in this game who participate.

Nelly has been the centre of many debates over recent pages, but I really feel the frustrated townie outlook from him. I can tell he was angry and annoyed at the way things had happened, and whilst I don't agree with his points (concerning the hammer), I really feel that his behaviour in recent pages shows he was a frustrated and annoyed townie.

Because of this view and your view on VH, I place you in the same camp as Seraph. Why excuse Nelly for newbie mistakes and not do the same for VH? I'm still waiting for Vampdog's opinion on the situation and his opinion of my opinion(that's alot of opinions) of VH because I've known him a while, played with him in alot of games, and as I said above, we usually see things in a similar light. I'd like to know if he thinks I'm sheltering VH by excusing his mistakes.

However, I feel that sometimes he can get turned away to more irrelevant issues, for example the WIFOM debate. Of all players, Muerrto’s slightly over-bearing style has without a doubt got him into the most feuds in this game, leading to, amongst other things, the breakdown of Nelly. I’m not sure whether these feuds are beneficial – if they were at scum, then it could out them, but at the same time I’m sensing they could be doing more harm than good.

Yeah, I get both of those alot. I easily get pulled into side debates about theory. Last game I was in I had to explain why I hammered someone who claimed town. We had really new people and they didn't understand why to NEVER back down when someone claims town, it makes no sense. Then one of the new players said if they were at lynch -1 and were afraid of being hammered they'd lie about their role to save themselves because getting a townie killed would be bad for the town. So I explained lynch all liars.

Anywho, about the second part I completely disagree. Nelly started off day 2 basically saying 'shrug, we screwed up'. When called on the hammer he acted like it was nothing. He said he was trying to stop Khel from RC'ing. All of this is horrible. By keeping on top of him I finally got him to realise WHY the hammer was bad. Because if he really IS town he's brought ALOT of suspiscion on himself for it. I wasn't TRYING to break him down but sadly sometimes it happens. What I did do is alleviate some of my suspiscions and some of other people's hopefully as well.

I don’t like the fact he calls Omen’s post 266 scummy, but doesn’t explain why.

I thought it was obvious. He voted Khel and called Khel out for not defending himself when he himself hadn't defended himself at all to his accusers. That's scummy.

Agree with Plessiez – in post 281, he votes for Khel even though he finds Omen more suspicious. This is blatant bandwagoning. He later seems to admit he is voting for those he doesn’t find suspicious. On Day 1 with no deadline, this is scummy.

Um...I said in that post I'd vote for either one. I said my vote stands on Khel because he was hurting the town more with his tunneling and he was. I also said 'I still think both will come up town sadly'. That's a far cry from thinking they're town and voting them.

FoS: Aimee

I don't like the way you're twisting what actually occured and by posting post#'s instead of quotes it seems you're hoping no one's checking into it.

I’m also nervous about several possible scum partnerships for Muerrto. Once, he answered Vampyrusddg’s question for him, and he has rather consistently defended VampanezeHunter. Any information about these things can only be gleamed from the lynching, killing, or investigation result, but after that, I believe a more thorough and clear representation of Muerrto’s alignment can be drawn. Overall, I think he could go either way at this point, but his alignment will be more easy to determine later in the game.

So you're so convinced I'm scum you're looking for partnerships and yet below you FoS and vote completely different people? This seems like trying to throw suspiscion on me without actually making a move to do anything about it. So that when I come up town you can say you didn't vote for me because you weren't sure. That's scummy.

You keep talking about scum hunting but then don't vote or even FoS for the person you think is scummy. Now granted after you read this you probably will FoS or vote me because I called you on it but it's a bit late at that point.

Surprisingly, I am very suspicious of Vampyrusddg. In the beginning, he was very vocal in the random stage, but quietened down dramatically when the game actually started. He clearly throughout the game has not been scumhunting to his capacity – this is inherently scummy.

Overall, I really think more attention needs to be paid to vampyrusddg, who has so far managed to slide through without doing much of anything in terms of scumhunting. I think he could easily be scum at this stage.

Sigh. I suppose I'm going to get flack for defending someone again but I know his personal standings right now and he's not able to post alot at the moment. He should be back in full swing soon though. He's usually quite involved and another one who likes type up essays instead of 1 liners. Your predecessor, Malchonn, is in the same situation and it could be said of you(him but now you) that you've been lurking pretty badly all game as well(as I said in my last post). Because you know your role you excuse yourself and Malchonn but doesn't that hold for Vampdog as well? I really don't like the double standards people are using for their arguments lately.

So overall, there is no scum-hunting, nothing. Hjallti has been hiding, and nothing has been done about it. The time has come for Hjallti to start looking for scum.

Now Hjalti may be in the same situation and I see he IS actually gone right now till 9/3 according to his latest post. But before that he's been pretty much lurking and following all game and since I DON'T know his personal situation I do suspect him for it. I suppose that's somewhat of a double standard but knowing Vampdog and Malch outside of just this game means I have the insider information to have that double standard. Without that extra info I don't see how you can blast someone for lurking and not someone else.


Overall a great post. Again, good to see people who participate. I'll have to re-read and check some other post #'s to see if you twisted anything else but I really, really didn't like the negative spin you put on some of the things I said and I'm glad I checked those posts out. In fact I wasn't checking post #'s till I came to the one where you said I said DO's post was scummy but didn't explain. I'm not known for short posts usually and I would've been pretty surprised to find you're right and I just said 'it's scummy', period. I think my post was self explanatory since I quoted the exact parts I was calling scummy.

[Muerrto]

A) The whole thing about how I restate other's words but twist them? I didn't quite see that.

I gave an example. I think that showed it. Like I said, you do it very slightly.

Yes and I responded to that example and stated that not only do I not see it that way but that DO's post that you cited was the whole reason everyone jumped on him. So everyone saw it the way I did and you're only now saying I twisted his words? Hindsight again? I'm sorry but if not a single person noticed my 'slight' twist, including yourself, how can you now go back and say it was a twist just because we now know DO's role(well for the most part we know)?

Now granted you may be right but can you take 2 similar situations and see them that juxtaposed? Doesn't make sense to me.

They are not the same at all. Nelly was CLEARLY town to me..he was acting exactly like frustrated town. VH? Not as much. Maybe slightly newbie but maybe not.

CLEARLY town...to you. Except there's quite a few other people playing that don't see it that way, including myself. But my point is that you're excusing newbie mistakes in Nelly and not in VH. Ignoring all other context and circumstances, at the core that's what you're doing. Now your suspiscions and opinions are what are enabling you to do that but what if your suspiscions are wrong? You're still applying a double standard to VH/Nelly.

As for Sauce, as I mentioned earlier, read back and you'll see that didn't exist.

Are you saying you weren't suspicious of Sauce? I can definitely quote exactly where you said that you were MOST worried about him.

Not at all. I know the post you're referencing and you conveniently left out the reason WHY I suspected him so I'll save you the trouble and quote it for you.

And finally, Sauce. He actually worries me the most. He posted a total of three times between my WIFOM post and his vote for me. He was the last to jump on my wagon before Omen jumped on and everyone else jumped off. He didn't vote Omen, just FoS'ed him so he's not quite as vote happy as the other 3. But he continues to misunderstand what I mean by slowing down the game. Did Khev calling for a lynch -2 on Omen before he can even defend himself show you what I mean by slowing down the game? Not content, voting.

The reason why he worries me the most is that so far out of the 4 that voted me he seems the most dangerous. He didn't blatantly vote me immediately. He waited, watched the argument build, then voted. Now the fact that he UNvoted me seems to help a little but IGMEOY, you seem crafty. That's a great skill to have as town, and a nasty one as scum.

Worries. Not saying he's scum, saying if he IS scum he seems like he'd be good. He then responded saying the same thing about me. I watch good players closely because I want them on my side. I even stated that earlier in the game when I was talking about if I'm a cop I investigate someone I want to know if I can trust or not, not necessarily someone I think is scum.

Then later:

3. Sauce. No real content. Maybe this is some OMGUS but with no real content and seeming to just have it out for me he bothers me.

I even said it was for OMGUS so I really don't like the way you stated that last part about me denying it.

****************************************************

9th Vote Count of Day 2


Nelly632 - 1 (somestrangeflea)

VampaneseHunter - 3 (SeraphicMirth, vampyrusddg, Aimee)

Aimee - 1 (death_omen)
Muerrto - 1 (Nelly632)


Not Voting: - 4 (Hjallti, Muerrto, Plessiez, VampaneseHunter)

6 to Lynch before deadline, 3 at deadline

[Muerrto]

Agree with Plessiez – in post 281, he votes for Khel even though he finds Omen more suspicious. This is blatant bandwagoning. He later seems to admit he is voting for those he doesn’t find suspicious. On Day 1 with no deadline, this is scummy.

Um...I said in that post I'd vote for either one. I said my vote stands on Khel because he was hurting the town more with his tunneling and he was. I also said 'I still think both will come up town sadly'. That's a far cry from thinking they're town and voting them.

What you said:

Neither are helping the town, both could be scum, both probably ARE town. But if we keep fighting back and forth between just those two we'll never get anywhere.

So you say that they are probably town, yet could be scum. This implies far more that you think they are town. And as I said before, voting for people you find to be town, especially on Day 1, is stupid.

You're really stretching here. When two people get into a fight like DO and Khel did it usually does mean they're both town. Everyone knows that. But does that mean we completely overlook the things they said and assume they ARE town? No way. How would we ever find scum? DO was voting for bad reasons, not defending himself, and constantly attacking Khel. Khel was 100% convinced he found a scum pair on page 2 and never let that go. He was wanting a speedlynch most of day 1 and wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone else being scum. Even if we're all pretty sure they're town because they're fighting so much, how do you simply ignore all the scum tells and not vote them?

I wasn't saying 'I think they're town'. I was saying 'They're most likely town', as in they always are town when they do this. There's a HUGE difference.

FoS: Aimee

I don't like the way you're twisting what actually occured and by posting post#'s instead of quotes it seems you're hoping no one's checking into it.

I don't really think this is fair. I got all of this ready in a day, read through the entire game and made my own notes from that. I wrote post numbers and since we are so close to the deadline, and because my post was long enough, I didn't want to shove 15 million quotes in.

No no. I didn't FoS you for the post #'s thing. My apologies. I hate replacing because I have to re-read everything and try to catch up. This is one hell of a game to replace into, especially with the deadline so props. The FoS was for the twisting my words. Now granted we ARE on a deadline so you have to stretch for suspiscions but you're stretching and not admitting you're strecthing. If you'd said 'well it's not much but we need something' that'd be one thing. But trying to say these reasons you posted are legitimate is what got you the FoS. Twisting around what I said to make me sound scummy when you definitely know what I meant when I said it is what got you the FoS.

You keep talking about scum hunting but then don't vote or even FoS for the person you think is scummy. Now granted after you read this you probably will FoS or vote me because I called you on it but it's a bit late at that point.

You quite clearly didn't read my post.

I said several times that my opinion of you is neutral. Conversely, I believe the 3 people I voted/FoSed are scummy. I'm not quite sure what your point here is. I voted or FoSed those I found scummy. I said I found you neutral. Therefore I didn't FoS or vote for you.

You also said you were trying to find scum partnerships with me. That says I'm neutral? That's far from neutral.


The rest I cut because I think my comment about the post #'s ticked you off and the rest of the post was getting a little more vehement. I'm not saying you suspect these people for lurking, I'm saying that if they have limited access, they also have limited time to scum hunt. Now as for the theory thing with Vampdog I again have to take his side. We think alike and enjoy a good debate about theory and playstyle etc. I could link quite a few times we've gotten into that kind of thing but I won't.

Anyway, I didn't suspect Malchonn except for his lurking which I understood and I don't suspect you. Coming in fresh and posting as much as you have is far from a scum tell. But I think the deadline spooked people and we're stretching for suspiscion. I'm still waiting for Vamps opinion of my take on VH and then I'll go from there. I think you implied alot more than 'neutral' on me in your post and I think denying it is shady. But I think we're also just clashing on playstyle differences and I'm willing to shake hands and walk away.

[Muerrto]

You're really stretching here. When two people get into a fight like DO and Khel did it usually does mean they're both town. Everyone knows that.

Nope. Pure WIFOM speculation.

But does that mean we completely overlook the things they said and assume they ARE town? No way. How would we ever find scum? DO was voting for bad reasons, not defending himself, and constantly attacking Khel. Khel was 100% convinced he found a scum pair on page 2 and never let that go. He was wanting a speedlynch most of day 1 and wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone else being scum. Even if we're all pretty sure they're town because they're fighting so much, how do you simply ignore all the scum tells and not vote them?

Okay, are you suggesting that you considered them to be town because they were fighting?

Definitely. Almost always when two people get into that bad it's because they're both town. Now granted if they were both long time players I could see building a case that they were distancing etc. But judging from how long they've been playing I'm pretty confident they weren't distancing.

My point was however that just because they might be town is no excuse to simply excuse them from their scum tells. You're right it's pure WIFOM to say they're town because they're fighting. It's usually right but it's WIFOM. So that's why you can't just assume they're town and overlook them.

In fact, you just basically undermined your own original argument. You said I voted for them even though I thought they were town. But then you just said that just because they're fighting doesn't make them town. Ergo, I voted them.

You also said you were trying to find scum partnerships with me. That says I'm neutral? That's far from neutral.

Eek, gads. Bad wording on my part. Let me attempt to re-explain.

What I meant was that if either VH or Vampy came up as scum, I would be more ready to suspect you. I understand why you came to the above conclusion, but what I meant was later, when we find out the alignments of these people, we would have a better position into where you stand too.

That's one of the reasons I find you to be neutral. I find you really unreadable, which is why at this stage I don't find you scummy. This is why you aren't getting any FoSes or votes from me.

Does that make sense?

Somewhat. But besides my difference in opinion on VH's playing and my defense of Vampdog because I know him outside this site, where's your link from me to them? Saying I'm neutral but if someone else turns up scum I'm no longer neutral makes no sense.

[Muerrto]

This is finally making sense.

If the only reason you said they are probably town is because they were fighting (which we have both agreed is inherently flawed), then this isn't scummy.

In that case, you were actually looking at their scum-tells, and doing the right thing (in a really twisted way).

I think that could have been explained clearer. I remember Plessiez taking an issue with it as well, so it's not just me being dim.

Yes, and I thought I explained to Pless but I suppose it was lost in the myriad of pages. But basically, yes. I assume they're both town because they're fighting so much(flawed yes but mostly right). But you can't just assume they're town if they're making bad scum tells. It's like I had to explain in another game that claiming townie means nothing. If I suspected you because of your actions then claiming plain town should never change my suspiscion. Therefore, just because they're fighting like townies doesn't mean I can excuse their scum tells. So while I was pretty sure their fighting labelled them as town, their tells did not and therefore I had to vote them.

Let's go theory. Say we have A and B. B is being attacked from all sides, and suddenly A starts coming along and defending them. Eventually, though, B is lynched. Suspicion is then on A for such a strong defense of B.

Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

Back to the game, you have quite clearly been defending both of them really obviously, and there is really obvious links that point you towards them. Therefore, if one of them came up as scum, I would be more susceptible to suspecting you.

Somewhat again. But the difference is I haven't been defending their role or their actions taken in the game per se. I've been defending them personally. Big difference. I have insider knowledge of Vamp that tells me that he likes to discuss theory and has limited access. I also have personal knowledge of VH that he's 13 because he said it. My take on that personal knowledge may be different from yours but that's simply a difference of opinion and can be argued till we're dead. VH's tells coincide with both newbie and scum. Knowing he's young boosts my suspiscions his tells are newbie. Now granted I've stated many times I hold newbies under that protection a bit much but that's just how I think.

However it seems this is all moot. Enough people suspect VH that he'll most likely die today and I hope you're right. And sadly if you are I'll have to re-defend myself tomorrow.

[Muerrto]

do you both think the other is scum and your discussion between the two of you is still worthwhile/productive or do you think we need to be looking elsewhere right now?

Actually no. Despite Aimee saying discussing theory is bad we've been doing just that lol. Kind of pointless to read actually. We'll stop now. Sorry.

[Muerrto]

Basically I'm not sure what to say. I wanna call out Hjalti for all of a sudden suspecting VH when he'd just about never mentioned him the whole game, but that'll be seen as a defense of VH and I'm not convinced enough he's town to stick my neck out like that.

Still, Hjalti was against DO in the start, then Khel when the DO thing died, then Nelly, now VH. And if you notice in his latest post he also threw suspiscion on me. He seems to be following every single wagon so far and that bothers me.

As for Nelly, sorry, if I'm sheltering him then so be it. His last post that he quoted above was what I was looking for 3 pages and seemed sincere enough for me to back off him. He was tested and passed and I won't be voting him. I could of course be sheltering another scum under a 'newbie' sign but his post didn't sound like that. I'm sure he's learned his lesson about hammers and RC's.

As for DO voting Aimee because she used to be Malchonn and DO's investigation got blocked and he was investigating Malchonn? I'm not even touching that. I'd love to see someone come up with a valid argument there.

[Muerrto]

And if you notice in his (=Hj) latest post he also threw suspiscion on me. He seems to be following every single wagon so far and that bothers me.

I think it was townlike to that from his perspective I like his posts, but that is a playstyle comment not a protown comment ofcourse.

I guess this is another example of those small twists. I like that way of playing as well as a matter of fact. the only thing I have to do here is that I made NO comment whatsoever to indicated that Muerrto would be antitown. I just said that liking the way Muerrto is playing, is not really saying he is protown for this, which just means I don't want to call that a towntell. Saying I would have suggested it being a scumtell is twisting this. I just want to call it a neutral comment.

Ok, then we'll chalk this up to a misunderstanding. No offense, but since your english isn't perfect it's pretty easy to read that last part a different way and that's the way I read it. No twist intended.

[Muerrto]

Wow. This brings up some interesting points. Like, if Aimee was scum, then why the HELL did she bus the godfather?

I don't like DO immediately jumping on Hjalti but then again I also put him at the top of my list(Hjalti, not DO) like I said yesterday so I can't fault him too much.

Seraph was just a plain townie as it says in the mod's post and since Khel was our Vig I think we have to assume we have an SK.

Which is quite uncool.

I'm assuming since DO's alive that he was blocked again, yes?


So who's the last scum and who's the SK? I'm gonna have to re-read later when I have more time.

[Muerrto]

Vote: Muerrto

I honestly don't see a reason to change my vote from last time, he defended Hunter and hunter came out Scum.

Lol and Aimee voted and blasted hunter and she was scum. Kinda puts that whole logic train in perspective, doesn't it?

Now granted scum can bus, but why bus the godfather? He's immune to investigation. It's insane.

But you're welcome to your opinion. I just wondering if by that same logic that you believe DO is scum too cause I've defended him. Oh and Vampdog.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP:In fact I'm almost of the belief that Nelly could actually be our SK. It would definitely explain the speed hammer and the simply joining any vote wagon that forms.

Day 1 was DO, then Khel. Day 2 he was all about suspecting me then switched to VH when that wagon started.

That's not 100% mind you but we do need to find the frickin SK.

[Muerrto]

Aimee was the one who was claiming you were scum right?
(I am fairly sure she was but right now I am too lazy to pull up a new window simply for the purpose of confirming this)

Yes. Not to use WIFOM to try and prove my innocence but that means if I'm scum then Aimee called out BOTH her partners in one swoop since both her and VH were scum.

That'd be...interesting to say the least.

[Muerrto]

Hm...good point. Why did the SK choose not to kill on night 1?

[Muerrto]

Guys, death_omen is definitely not pro-town. He's not necessarily mafia, since he could be the other killer (SK?) from the non-mafia N2 kill.

Ok, wait a sec. First off you're Pless so I'm NOT saying you're mafia, I'd be quite surprised. But you start off the post saying maybe DO is the SK then end the post saying there's no SK and still vote DO? So are you now saying DO is mafia or the SK?

I'm not sure I agree with your thinking that the mafia would kill DO. I mean, if they already know what he is, why NOT just block him and kill others? I'm not saying I still 100% believe his claim either.

Like I said, plain roles are not this mod's cup of tea so a plain cop would be strange. And being blocked night after night just means he never has to come up with an investigation. So the evidence is stacked against him to be sure.

What I REALLY don't like tho is that he thinks whoever he investigated is scum because his investigation failed. Do I suspect Hjallti? Yes. That's not changed. But do I suspect him because of DO's reasoning? Of course not. That makes no sense whatsoever. Just because his pick on Malchonn/Aimee

happened

to be blocked and

happened

to be correct doesn't mean Hjalti's scum because it happened again. There's just no basis for that at all.

[Muerrto]

also, what are the chances the scum would randomly (on N1) roleblock someone, and then again do so twice?

Randomly? WTF. He claimed cop on day 1, why would it be random?

Also, drop the hostility I already said since you're Pless I've pretty much ruled you out as scum so I'm not trying to accuse you of anything but trying to understand your posts.

[Muerrto]

Honestly, I keep saying Karen is Pless and therefore not scum but then again, Pless could've just been that good. Trying to bring suspiscion and even voting DO is crazy. But claiming the role block was random and that she can't even find DO's RC? I mean. I'm definitely

FoS: Karen

pending some other wild post.

My only other suspects right now really are Hjalti, for always following the wagon and Vamp because he never posts. But Vamps situation has kept him from doing so and that's changed so we'll have to see what he does over the next couple days.

Also, I'll be on vacation till monday or tuesday so please don't quick lynch someone before then. Thanks.

[Muerrto]

if pless were anything but vanilla, do you think he'd ask for a replacement?

You mean like Malchonn the vanilla..oh wait, he was scum wasn't he? This is not only WIFOM but doesn't even fit the current game.

First of all, I thought the number of possibilities was limited by the mods reference to the normal rules. post 690.

So I don't understand this post:

Like I said, plain roles are not this mod's cup of tea so a plain cop would be strange. And being blocked night after night just means he never has to come up with an investigation. So the evidence is stacked against him to be sure.

From the fact the mod even linked to the Normal rules, I understand that we in fact have only normal roles. I would find it very misleading if he would point to these rules, but wouldn't have used them.

Muerrto, Could you elaborate why you still think we have not a normal cop?
Karen, I don't see your bomb theory coincide with these normal rules. Could you point out a normal game using a bomb, or so?

You got me there. I've even been contacted by the mod. This is my first mini and I had no clue he had to use set roles. Our other site never uses normal roles. But then again, I've said all along that DO's claim seems real, only that I thought it was weird we'd have a normal cop. Since I'm wrong about that I definitely still support DO.

Muerrto,
Care to explain why this goes for you and not for me?

Aimee was the one who was claiming you were scum right?
(I am fairly sure she was but right now I am too lazy to pull up a new window simply for the purpose of confirming this)

Yes. Not to use WIFOM to try and prove my innocence but that means if I'm scum then Aimee called out BOTH her partners in one swoop since both her and VH were scum.

That'd be...interesting to say the least.

indeed interesting. The first real FoS on me came from Aimee (#621) and was metagaming. Although I didn't get the suspicion away, it is not really clear to me what was so scummy.

You're absolutely correct again. She did call you out as well. Not as much as me but she did call you out. But she ALSO called out Vampdog and yet you're stating suspiscion of him in this very post, so you're doing the same thing I was doing.

But it's still not necessarily clearing you. Check her posts. She said if VH comes up scum she'd think I was scum. She knew VH was scum, plus he was already on the chopping block at that moment. Knowing he was scum she was setting me up for lynch on day 3. Thank god it didn't work.


But even though you're not 100% cleared I'll have to agree, her calling you or Vampdog out at the same time she called out VH makes me alot more hesitant to vote either one of you.

[Muerrto]

Shrug, IMO DO, myself, Hjalti, and Vampdog are cleared at the moment(I put myself in there because in MY opinion I'm cleared of course). That leaves Flea, Nelly, and Karen.

Flea - 1 liners but has also had alot of good logical follow through in his thoughts. Especially recently his posts seem town.

Nelly - I hope he's just newbie town and the hammer was a legitimate mistake. I'm not ready to lynch him yet. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Karen - Well, she's Pless and he certainly

seemed

town. But she on the other hand...

however, i do feel that VampanezeHunter is pro-town (due to his negligence apathy, and lack of fight), and am very suspicious of a bandwagon that all of a sudden has formed on this ONE page alone, when there are 26 others.

Guys, death_omen is definitely not pro-town. He's not necessarily mafia, since he could be the other killer (SK?) from the non-mafia N2 kill.

when did i say DO was the SK? thank you for not quoting me, and completely making up a quote of me???

also, what are the chances the scum would randomly (on N1) roleblock someone, and then again do so twice?

yeah, i can't find the post where he RC'd. can you give me the post #?

also, i'm 100% certain he's not the cop.

if pless were anything but vanilla, do you think he'd ask for a replacement?

All of this together is just a bit too much all in a little over 2 pages.

All this leads me to now

Vote: Karen

What does everyone else think? I DON'T want a deadline.

[Muerrto]

Yep I agree as i stated above Karen IMO is the way to go due to Plessiez character at the beginning of the game and Karen's attitude now.

Vote:Karen

Yeah, the extreme difference in playstyles is a bit much.

[Muerrto]

Shrug, IMO DO, myself, Hjalti, and Vampdog are cleared at the moment

Uh, why?

Because we're nowhere near LYLO right now with 1 scum floating. So since Aimee called out Vampdog and Hjalti and DO claimed cop they're currently cleared. What part of that is difficult to grasp?

Also since D.O has claimed cop I have to go with him until he is proven otherwise

No you don't...

Um, yes you do. He's a claimed and un-opposed power role claim in a non-LYLO situation. Yes, you do.

[Muerrto]

So since Aimee called out Vampdog and Hjalti and DO claimed cop they're currently cleared. What part of that is difficult to grasp?

No, that means that the chance of them being scum is slightly lower. They aren't even close to being cleared.

Sigh...

So since Aimee called out Vampdog and Hjalti and DO claimed cop they're

currently

cleared. What part of that is difficult to grasp?

Currently, as in right now. As in since we're not in LYLO there's no point in going for people who's chance of being scum is, in your own words, slightly lower.

Um, yes you do. He's a claimed and un-opposed power role claim in a non-LYLO situation. Yes, you do.

He's a claimed Cop with no results on Day 3. This is a closed setup, meaning that there may not even be a Cop. He seems adamant that he wasn't roleblocked. So no, I don't.

Also, since we're not in LYLO going for a claimed power role is just as bad as going for Hjalti or Vampdog. If we reach LYLO, suspect DO all you want. If we're not in LYLO since there are other suspects out there how could you possibly justify lynching people whos, again in your own words, chance of being scum is slightly lower?

So, yeah, you do...FOR NOW.

[Muerrto]

Ok, first off, no one vote, if that's not obvious. We OBVIOUSLY have 1 scum left(a blocker) and an SK and 2 town.

So let's start speculating. Who's the SK? Who's the scum?

Karen was obviously wrong...and dumb for killing herself.

DO WAS the cop. Although I gotta say I didn't expect Hjalti as the doctor. Wild.

SO, here we go. Aimee called out VH, me, Vampdog, and Hjalti. She was scum, VH was scum, Hjalti was the doctor, so I'm assuming Vampdog isn't scum just like I did yesterday. I'm scared I'm sheltering Nelly but I don't see him as being the last scum either. That leaves Flea. I have to admit I

didn't

ever see him as scum but I'll have to re-read now I spose. I'll also have to re-evaluate my opinion of Nelly.

As for SK? Since I think Flea's scum and Nelly's town(I hope) I have to go with Vampdog. He's back now but still lurking so it definitely fits. I've suspected him a few times but when he got called out it kind of cleared him. So him being the SK makes perfect sense.

Problem is, if we lynch town today, unless the scum and SK kill each other we lose. I've tried to work out all the scenarios but there's far too many. We can assume no more cops, no more doctors so if we lynch town today we're at 1 SK, 1 scum, 1 town. The night phase is gonna be a mess and town is most likely going to lose. So we HAVE to get this right.

[Muerrto]

The best scenario is for us to go for the SK and hope that the Roleblocking/Night Killing SCUM that is left cannot kill tonight then we have a chance for tomorrow.

Your benefit of the doubt on my end is slipping. If we kill the SK, how would the scum not be able to NK?

In fact, if we kill the scum, the SK would be able to NK. Unfortunately, strangely. Vampy is right.

If we lynch the SK, the scum wins automatically. If we lynch the scum, the SK wins automatically. Nothing will change either of those scenarios.

If we lynch town today we have 1 town, SK, and scum at night. They may kill themselves or they may kill town but it's just better than the auto lose scenario.

If we NO LYNCH today then we help the scum, because the SK doesn't know who to target and the scum does.

Now all of this needs the blocking factor added in and that gives the scum a slight advantage.

Vampy is correct, we have to lynch town today. If he's already voting himself, I have to assume he's not the SK or the scum because he'd be throwing the game for himself. So since Vampy's town...

Vote: Vampdog

Before you attack me for my quick vote, read my post and if you can dispute it, then attack me. Now we just cross our fingers that the scum and SK kill each other or pick the same target.

[Muerrto]

Today is either a no lynch and we help the scum and not the SK or a townie lynch and cross our fingers. If we lynch the bad guy the other one wins automatically. But yes, please everyone wait so that we can possibly catch something we've missed in the scenarios. We have to be sure.

And DON'T claim. If the scum knows who the SK is he'll block him for the win. Do NOT claim ANYTHING.

[Muerrto]

Ok let me see I am under the impression that the Scum who is left CANNOT NK tonight (Or atleast hope), the reason I assume this is because it just doesn't make sense for a scum who can Night Kill to continue to Roleblock DO when he could simply Night Kill and ensure that the scum have one less Town to deal with.

Simple solution to this post. You're wrong. Read the roles. The blocker gets his ability but the mafia always get a night kill. So no matter what, if we lynch the SK, scum wins. If we lynch scum, the SK wins.

Period.

But I do like the thinking outside the box because no matter what this scenario sucks for town.

[Muerrto]

Read

what

roles...? This is not an Open game, and you have just admitted to having knowledge of the ScumRoleblocker role PM...

Care to explain..?

The mafia ALWAYS gets a night kill despite what roles they have. Period. Vampdog knows this, I know this, and

Mod: Can we get a ruling? Despite any roles the mafia ALWAYS gets a night kill, right? Unless blocked?

Sorry, closed setup so I can't divulge anything about the game mechanics - Mod

So no, no knowledge of PM's, just knowledge of mafia.

[Muerrto]

Well yeah, you say that

now

! I know just as well that Mafia not being able to kill every night is a bizarre role (in a normal, anyway), but that doesn't chance the fact that the actual words "Read the roles." is a scummy thing to say in a closed game.

Um...this is a NORMAL game, he's gotta follow roles dictated to him. So yeah, a blocker on the mafia side still night kills.

[Muerrto]

Why did the serial killer wait to the last night to show up and kill? All other kills appear to be the act of the Mafia and we get our first glance of a Knife killing just last night.

I am wondering why he didnt kill on the first two nights?

He didn't, he killed Aimee.

[Muerrto]

I know that, but that's not what this is about. This is about you telling Nelly to read the roles in a Closed setup.

This is now also about you apparently knowing exactly who killed who

Ok, we need some intelligent input here, no offense. Vamp, can I get some back up if the mod can't?

Here's how it is, this is a closed NORMAL set up. The mod has already posted a link to all the ROLES in the game that could be here. NOT the PM's. THE ROLES. So um yeah if you want me to search and re-post the link I can but how does my ability to read and remember posts make me scum? You have the same info, you just don't remember that you do.

Second, TWO people died that night. Since the SCUM sure as hell didn't kill Aimee(ummm...cause she's SCUM), who killed her? Since we now know we HAVE an SK, I'd say it'd have to be um uhh..lemme think...

THE SK!!!!!

This is all knowledge you have you just chose to ignore, not recall, or not pay attention to. Nowhere have I referenced or even hinted at any PM's or private knowledge privy only to the scum. You are seriously grasping the same way you did day 1 with the whole WIFOM thing. Please read more carefully and stop throwing around nonsenical crap because it distracts from the actual game.

/rant off

[Muerrto]

For the love of god someone hammer. The suspense is killing me.

Secanio A - we lynch scum, SK kills town, SK

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: omg I hate my mouse

*SK wins

Scenario B - we lynch SK, scum kills town, scum wins

Scenario C or D - we lynch town or no lynch, we have 1 SK, 1 scum, and either 1 or 2 town at night. We have a possibility to win. Period.

The no lynch gives scum/SK more choices and less of a chance of killing each other.

Ergo, hammer Vampdog please(although of course the two anti-town roles are hesitant to do this obviously as this delay shows).

[Muerrto]

Ergo, hammer Vampdog please(

although of course the two anti-town roles are hesitant to do this obviously as this delay shows

).

Explain the bold, without giving me an argument like "well, you're scum, so it makes sense".

There is no reason for discussion. If you can't refute the scenarios then delaying the hammer pin points you as an anti-town role. It also makes me wait to find out if the town will actually survive the night. That's annoying. Tell me what we're actually accomplishing and what we're GOING to accomplish this day and a reason for delaying the night and I'll listen.

We don't want people to claim, we don't want the scum to know who the SK is and vice versa so why make the day longer and give them a chance to figure it out? All delaying the hammer is doing is benefitting the anti town roles because the town won't benefit from anything done today. So...


Also, how can I possibly explain why I think you're either the SK or scum? Vamp's town for sacrificing himself, I know I'm town, ergo, you and Nelly are the anti-town. I knew I never should've let up on Nelly but sadly I DO have a history of doing that as I said.

[Muerrto]

Ok well, Nelly was definitely refusing to hammer. I have no clue how no one died but his refusal to hammer and vote for me makes me

FoS: Nelly

I'd like to hear an explanation.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: Actually LMAO, we're in the same situation as yesterday. If we kill town, the scum and SK are left, if we kill scum the SK wins, if we kill SK the scum wins.

So since we can't lynch town like yesterday...

Vote: No lynch

[Muerrto]

That was awesome! When Aimee died I was like oh crap I'm screwed. It was what, 6 people left, 1 scum. But somehow I was able to convince everyone I was town. I absolutely loved it. Aimee 'clearing' me then dying was great too because since she called out me and VH in the same post we were trying to figure out how the heck she'd play that off when VH was lynched and NOT get me lynched too.

Nelly's hammer was the perfect shield to hide behind for a while. Careful with that in the future man. And sorry DO for neutering your character. I was amazed when Flea lived last night but now that I see the PM I see why.

Great game all. Thanks a ton Vel for hosting. VH, Aimee, great job.

GO SCUM!!!

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: In MOST 12 person games there's 3 scum so I figured saying there was only 1 scum left was fine, not really a slip. I've never seen one with four anyway. Wouldn't that over power the scum?

[Muerrto]

My only regret is that my pleas of 'my playstyle is the same I'm town' on the other site I play on will be ignored completely and might get me lynched for even mentioning it. Lol. I told you my playstyle wouldn't change if I was scum. And OMG it's sooo much more fun to be scum

[Muerrto]

And Muerrto, your play *was* different this time around. Not overtly, of course, but it was different. Your attacks were much more subtle this go around, although I'm not sure whether that's due to you being scum or the fact that you're gaining more experience in the forum version of the game and are starting to naturally tone down and be less aggressive overall. I'm leaning toward the latter

Definitely the latter because the former was getting me lynched when I was town lol. But this is my current playstyle in all my games. Alot more laid back, but I still never let up when I see a slip up. The vig getting knocked out day 1 and DO having to claim day 1 was a HUGE boost for the scum.

[Muerrto]

By the way, Muerrto you said somewhere you didn't think I was doc, but how can you see the difference between the roles. I mean I played less offensive because I was doc, I mean as vanilla I might have stuck out some more, but is that a power-role-tell. (Aimee called it a scumtell but then again she was scum).

Lurking is not always a scum tell but it's ALWAYS used BY scum to try to throw suspiscion on lurkers. We used that to try to throw suspiscion on you and Vampdog because you were lurking. Obviously you both had real life issues but if we can convince the rest of the town you're lurking then we've shifted suspiscion. That's usually what happens with lurkers is they become the scapegoats of the mafia.

As for the doc, I had no clue you were a doc or I'd have killed you. You didn't bread crumb or hint anything which as a doctor is excellent play. Claiming doc is worse than claiming any other power role because as another power role you still have chance of being protected by the doc. Claiming doc just gets you killed.

[Muerrto]

WOOT GO MURRETO! Sorry Murreto for playing soo bad! Anyway YAY!

You played fine man. Just remember, scum work best behind the scenes. If a wagon is rolling on town without your assisstance, let it roll. Defending the one getting rolled just slows the process and if it's rolling without you then you're free from blame. You're new, you'll get the hang of it. Keep playing. Hope to see you in a newbie game in the future.