433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[kilmenator]

lets see... um...

vote:pete d

[kilmenator]

Wow, a wagon to 4 already? It is unlikey that a hammer will happen this early, but still...

[kilmenator]

Wow, this is the kind of game I like! Discussion on the first few pages!

My opinion about the whole vote thing. I agree that it is dangerous to put someone at lynch -3, but I also think it unlikely that they would be quick lynched, because I would bet that at least 1 scum are on the wagon already, and no scum is going to quick lynch that early on day 1.

I do like how the discussion has been sparked from it and the reactions, while right now may not be valuable, but it will later allow us something to analyze later.

Busy right now, actually at work, but will try to post more tonight...

[kilmenator]

Thats very true most of the time Southpaw but when everyone starts to presume such a thing is when the dinamics of the game can change and scum can do the most obvious things and people just say, nah, thats far too obvious.
Thats the fun of the game, you never know who is telling the truth or not, not for sure anyway.

Isnt that what WIFOM bascially is? Doing things to throw others off and basically saying, if I were scum, I NEVER would have done that or been that obvious.

I think this is why people need to lynch scummy people, because then people will aviod scummy behaviors as much as possible. Most of you know if you have played with me before, that I do not buy the too scummy to be scum argument.

And to the scum tells discussion, most experienced players will try to aviod those scum tells, I think people need to be veiwed according to how they play, most people will exhibit certain traits when they are a certain role. I am not saying that there are not scum tells, I am just saying most people try to aviod them at all costs.

[kilmenator]

What! A claim? With only 2 votes and no one else expressing much suspicions? Why dodgy would you claim, some of us can read into the posts and see what you are trying to say, just because the Fonz is attacking you does not mean that you should have claimed, it was a stupid place to claim, and are you being replaced? Is that what the last post comment was?

Umm... Wow, what the heck...

unvote:

the random

[kilmenator]

Well, since Dodgy says The Fonz was a bad man, and Dodgy quit the game, The Fonz

must

be a bad man!

Unless this is all an elaborate plan by Dodgy to win the game vicariously. But why would he claim doctor if that were the case? So I'm thinking he's either doctor, or vanilla townie trying to get his successor killed quickly by the scum.

That logic doesnt work, either he is the doctor or he is a townie, you are forgetting the other possiblility, it is that he is scum trying to get a doc to out themselves... it could be many things, at this point, if there is another Doc, I dont think it is wise for them to come out, however, they need to make it a point to somehow in the thread give us something to back up (if he has to later) his claim to innocence. At this point though, I think Dodgy was the doc, and we will find out tonight, because I am sure that scum will make him their target tonight if he is truly the doc, at this point we need to focus our attention elsewhere.

[kilmenator]

I agree that if he is not scum he will not die tonight, but I also like the "lynch all liars rule" if he is now claiming vanilla, he is basically playing head games with us. He is either the doc, or scum, or townie, but being that he already claimed doc, I find it extremely scummy that the claim was retracted. I would like to second the request for a true role claim, I do agree that we should not lynch someone just because of their predecessor. More comment later.

[kilmenator]

why not.

vote: kilmenator

. she seems to be lurking a bit; i don't like her last two posts, seems a bit contradictory saying that we shouldn't focus on CES, but that she finds CES scummy. It's like she was trying to both make CES out to be scummy but distance herself at the same time. I also don't like how she suggests that potential doc's should leave hints.

Let me explain what I meant in the posts. What I meant was that I find it semi-scummy that CES retracted Dodgy's claim. I find it likely that it could all be fluff being that Dodgy was an experienced player and I can not imagine him making such a silly move as doc. Claiming with two votes on you is complete stupidity and I doubt Dodgy, being as experienced as he was would do that.

That logic doesnt work, either he is the doctor or he is a townie, you are forgetting the other possiblility,

it is that he is scum trying to get a doc to out themselves

... it could be many things, at this point, if there is another Doc,

I dont think it is wise for them to come out, however, they need to make it a point to somehow in the thread give us something to back up (if he has to later)

his claim to innocence. At this point though, I think Dodgy was the doc, and we will find out tonight, because I am sure that scum will make him their target tonight if he is truly the doc, at this point we need to focus our attention elsewhere.

In many games that I play as doc, I use my own little way of telling people what my role is so that if there is a counterclaim later, I can point out where earlier in the game I claimed, but did not really let people know I claimed. I am not saying anyone should use my way of doing so, but sometimes I will use the first letter of each sentence I use to spell out I AM DOC or something like that. Just so if there is a counter claim later, I have something other than the claim I have just made to back it up. Not once in a game has anyone found me out before I claimed. I wanted to make it clear that the real doc should not out himself at this point, but in some strategic way should give us a way to know he is the real doc so that if this comes back to haunt us in endgame we can have a little more than just claims to go on.

As I said before, I think we need a true claim from CES because tomorrow the game is going to be sooooo full of WIFOM it isnt even going to be funny.

[kilmenator]

I guess it's about time a posted again, but I don't see much else for me to say that I haven't already said. I'm still happy with my vote on kilmenator.

Why is that? Have you outlined a case against me cause I dont see it...

[kilmenator]

From what I can see right off, I think I may be voting the Fonz, but I need time to read, sorry guys, busy right now, but will have something later... I promise...

[kilmenator]

Yeah, I echo him because it is likely what scum will do if he is the doc. And you are right, I am no noob so why would I do noobish things?

[kilmenator]

Im still here, busy... will post maybe tonight or tomorrow..

[kilmenator]

I am here, and I do know that I am at lynch minus 2 but I do not really see the case for myself. I will have to catch up, tonight... I will...

[kilmenator]

Ok, so as I said before, I am extremely busy, and really should be working on finishing my grades for the grade books being that they are due friday, and I have not had near enough time to get everything done... plus, my wedding anniversary was this weekend, and my brother in law just moved from Kelona, BC to Columbus, OH and we had to help with that... so needless to say, I have been extremely busy... but.. my promised catch up...

Ok, so from what I can see, I am catching up from about page 9ish, it seems that most of of the posts from page 9-11 were mostly about CES and the retraction of the claim. I still stand by my opinion that CES should truly claim, because if he is outed, then it is his predecessors doing. But, since this discussion is not getting anywhere, I am willing to just let it go, but the scums are probably going to have a good time trying some WIFOM on us, if in fact CES is not killed.

The person I am most suspicious of right now is Pete D, followed closely by the CES. Here is why...

Pretty much as per my previous post. I think you stayed out of discussion for the most part and haven't commited to anything; your posts in regard to the

CES situation seem to be trying to put pressure on whilst keeping yourself distanced

.

If this is the case against me, you basically just called CES scum, because I am distancing from him... and you think I am scum... that doesnt make much sense at all...
Pete has consistently pushed for me even when I answered his questions, he has also not really outlined a clear case against me, (which granted no one really has to my knowledge, other than the fact that I agreed with the fonz that I thought CES should claim..

unovte:

(if voting) and

vote: pete d

CES- DOdgy was scummy, and then the claim was retracted, and now he is just flying under the radar for the most part, most of his posts have been pretty useless and have added nothing. Also, the LAL applies here for me, because retracting a claim, pretty much means the first player lied, therefore making that person a liar.
And to defend myself...

EBWOP: That should be NK'd, not lynched.

the switch was not necessarily a switch, scum are bound to play WIFOM with us or they are going to kill CES... either way, I wasnt following the Fonz, I was stating my opinions.

The player who is consistently showing up on my scumdar is kilmenator. She has not posted a lot of content and when she does, her suspicions tend to run counter to my own, so that is where I am most comfortable placing my vote.

vote: kilmenator

Like I said, I ahve been busy, so my content has been down, plus I am involved in way to many games at this point, but voting me because my suspicions are not what you think, doesnt make me scum, maybe I just look at things from a different perspecitve. And who is it that I have been suspicious of that you have not thought was suspicious?

I am also suspicious of gorkat who vote hops to much and for hopping on my bandwagon without really outlining a case, or having a case outlined. The only reason I point him out and not everyone else, is because he has consistently vote hopped IMO.

I would echo IH and ask for a case to be outlined against me, it is hard to defend yourself when you dont know what to defend against.

[kilmenator]

@kilm: I've gone over my vote record in my recent posts.

How do you mean the switch on CES' fate was not a switch? You first said he'd get NK'd, then that he wouldn't. What do you know about tonight's actions we don't?

Also:

He is either the doc, or scum, or townie, but being that he already claimed doc,

I find it extremely scummy

that the claim was retracted

What I meant was that

I find it semi-scummy

that CES retracted Dodgy's claim.

Quite different degrees of scumminess there.

They are different degrees of scumminess, and I guess I had not really thought through the second post before I posted it, I find it scummy that he retracted to which degree, I guess I am not entirely sure, the retraction was scummy, but that isnt the only reason that I find him scummy, Dodgy's actions were scummy too.

Also, I find Gorkat very opportunistic, as if he finds any little thing and runs with it. This is day one, and I honestly have not had enough time or effort to put into this game, so me saying to which degree it was scummy isnt that huge of a deal, especially when you know that I have not put much time of effort into this game.

If CES is doc, he could or could not get NK'ed. Scum will play a mean game of WIFOM with us, and that is what the whole post was about... it was to say that if he was the doc he would probably be NK'ed, but maybe not, scum could set up their next lynch using WIFOM. I still think CES should claim... but that is besides the point I guess.

I am happy with my vote on Pete D and to respond to pete's question about why I wasnt voting CES if I found him scummy it's because I find pete more scummy and I only have one vote/

[kilmenator]

Numbered for efficiencey

...I guess I am not entirely sure, the retraction was scummy, but that isnt the only reason that I find him scummy, Dodgy's actions were scummy too.

1.

At first, you found Dodgy's claim believable:

At this point though, I think Dodgy was the doc, and we will find out tonight, because I am sure that scum will make him their target tonight if he is truly the doc, at this point we need to focus our attention elsewhere.

Fonz was the first to say 'no reason to disbelieve'.

2.

Once other people started to point it out and the claim was retracted by CES, you started to question it.

I find it likely that it could all be fluff being that Dodgy was an experienced player and I can not imagine him making such a silly move as doc.

3.

You went from believing the claim and thinking we should look elsewhere to it being unimaginable...

1. At first I found his claim believable because there was no reason not to believe him, but then CES retracted the claim, which made the claim questionable in my mind, therefore making it unbelievable...
2. Ummm yeah, doesnt it make it more questionable when a person lies?
3. Yeah, with the combination of realizing that Dodgy was not an inexperienced player and the fact that CES retracted the claim made it unimaginable that he would have claimed doc as early as he did, especially with like only 2 votes on him. Plus, I think I was to much in shock from the claim to disbelieve what he said...

[kilmenator]

A(dd)BWOP- plus, at this point, I am not saying that we should lynch CES, I am saying that he needs to make a real claim and we should move on, because IMO if CES is the doc, he is most likely to be a target tonight, then we will have whether or not he is doc tomorrow, so he needs to make a real claim, and depending on what he claims, we can work from there, I am not advocating a CES lynch, but I would like it if he would claim, because it will make the game less confusing for the town.

[kilmenator]

Being informed is important, but I do not think it is wise to divulge so much information especially right now, even if the cop (if there is one) has one investigation, is it worth risking his life to get that information to the town? Wouldnt it benefit the town more to have the cop around to get a few more shots at who the scums are? Maybe I am misunderstanding this argument or something... but withholding information to save you skin and gain more information probably is wise... IMO...

[kilmenator]

Yeah, I didnt know what ad hominem was either... Still here, not much more for me to say at this point...

[kilmenator]

Well maybe I do...

Vote: InHimShallIBe

[kilmenator]

He is scum and no one is putting pressure on him to claim, so he isnt posting...

[kilmenator]

I'm against an inHim claim. Basically, I'm

always

in favor of someone so closed to being lynched claiming; however, CES got there first (in the alternate form of Dodgy). That being said, I'm finding InHim's resistance to claiming a bit scummy ("It helps the town" is unneccesarily vague, and he attacked Gorckat rather than Gorckat's legitimate point).

So, yeah. IGMEOY: InHim, but to force a claim right now would be a mistake.

This doesnt sit well with me, how is it a mistake when he is at lynch -1? Wouldnt it make sense for him to claim, that way if anything, we can get a better opportunity at a lynch today, with someone else? If inhim does turn up scum, This quote from pie might take on an entirely different light, because pie seems to be on both sides, "usually should claim", "a bit scummy", "to force a claim right now would be a mistake".

Also to Pete- the reason my vote hasnt moved is because I find both CES and inhim scummy, being that inhim has a much larger bandwagon, I will stay there, until he claims or dies.

[kilmenator]

I too agree that maybe we should let MBL off for now and deal with him tomorrow...

[kilmenator]

Just FYI, MBL is one of the best BS'ers I have ever played with.

[kilmenator]

I too agree that maybe we should let MBL off for now and deal with him tomorrow...

Just FYI, MBL is one of the best BS'ers I have ever played with.

So why wait til tomorrow?

Because there is a chance scum will kill him tonight if he is not scum, and if he is around tomorrow, we will also have his behavior to look at. I think waiting for tomorrow to deal with MBL is the best bet, especially being that we are at deadline, and obviously do not have the vote to make a lynch or claim happen, so it looks as though inhim is the best lynch canidate.

[kilmenator]

I'd recommend against lynching inHim/sweeney.

Sweeney posted rationally in response to the Dodgy situation. I am a bit concerned about his awkwardly referring to the "mafia" a few times in the third person but it's not compelling enough to run with on its own. InHim is a very good player who has been trying to draw connections and actually pay attention to the substance of people's posts. Could be scum but I don't feel it. Maybe I'll change my mind when reading his posts in the context of the thread instead of isolated, but I don't think so.

Day's gone on forever. I hope we can find a better lynch soon. I'll read how people attacked inHim and see who's been reasonable about it and who's been pretending and/or distancing.

Honestly, at this point, if you want day to get over with wouldnt it be logical to see who the town thinks is scummy? Isnt it a little bit strange that you are defending Inhim, yet you havent read his posts in the context they were written? This seems like a distancing tactic to me, if in fact inhim turns up scum. Also, your analysis of why sweeney isnt scum is crap, just because someone reacted the way you think they should have does NOT make them any less a canidate for scum. Sweeny could have very well been scum, or not scum, posting rationally about someone claim does not tell of alignment at all.

In the last game I played with MBL, he did exactly as he said he agrees with, he lied the whole game, he fake claimed like 3 times, the problem with not telling the truth, is that (as seen in the last game by MBL) it can be used by scum and town alike. Town should have nothing to hide therefore, lying would not be good for them, scum are the only people who gain an advantage from lying. I would be good with a vote on either MBL or Inhim, being that Inhim has seeminly disappeared or started lurking and the fact that he has the biggest wagon, I would think that Inhim is our best shot right at this moment, but if the tide changes, I could just as easily vote for MBL. I honestly believe that if MBL is not scum, he will die tonight. Therefore, I see inhim as a better lynch right now.

[kilmenator]

Honestly, at this point, if you want day to get over with wouldnt it be logical to see who the town thinks is scummy? Isnt it a little bit strange that you are defending Inhim, yet you havent read his posts in the context they were written? This seems like a distancing tactic to me, if in fact inhim turns up scum.

I'm distancing by defending him? Feel free to clarify that accusation..

Yeah, sometimes, taking the heat off scum and at the same time, saying, he could be scum, and giving an excuse for you are not sure if he is scum seems to be a distancing tactic. You arent calling him scummy or town, you give reasons why he could be both, but in the end call him town. This does not make sense at all, especially if you think he is town, why would you point out why he may not be town? Other than to give yourself a little distance and not buddy up with someone to strongly?

Also, considering your lack of contribution to this game I think it's a tad hypocritical to chastise me for not doing a complete reread yet..

Who says I havent contributed? I have, maybe you dont like what I have said, but I have contributed, do not try to paint it that I have not. And, I wasnt chastising for the lack of the reread, I was chastising for making assumptions of someones innocence when you have not comepletely reread.

Also, your analysis of why sweeney isnt scum is crap,

just because someone reacted the way you think they should have does NOT make them any less a canidate for scum

. Sweeny could have very well been scum, or not scum, posting rationally about someone claim does not tell of alignment at all.

I agree, and I mentioned one of the few things that registered scummy about Sweeny to me, but on the whole I got a neutral to slightly town read of him. I never said I don't think Sweeny could possibly be scum--you should choose your words more carefully..

If you think we should be looking for another target for a lynch, then obviously you dont find it likely that he is scum, and it wasnt necessarily the fact that you were saying he couldnt be scum, it was your reasoning for saying why you didnt think he was scum (because his response to dodgys claim, was what you call rational)

In the last game I played with MBL, he did exactly as he said he agrees with, he lied the whole game, he fake claimed like 3 times, the problem with not telling the truth, is that (as seen in the last game by MBL) it can be used by scum and town alike.

That's not a compelling argument for lynching ALL liars

In Mormon Missionary Mafia, I lied about having a one-shot self-protect and it kept scum from killing me, and town won. Sometimes lying is good, and just like anything else in this game it's up to town to make up their minds on a case-by-case basis. Rarely in RL or in this game is a dogmatic approach the best way to approach situations...

It sure works for me, and my point was that lying can be used by scum as well as town, a good townie, does not need to lie. Plus, claiming one shot protection is a little different from claiming a role that you may or may not have.

I would be good with a vote on either MBL or Inhim,

being that Inhim has seeminly disappeared or started lurking and the fact that he has the biggest wagon, I would think that Inhim is our best shot right at this moment, but if the tide changes

, I could just as easily vote for MBL. I honestly believe that if MBL is not scum, he will die tonight. Therefore, I see inhim as a better lynch right now.

Scummy.

Why do you find that scummy? Doesnt it make sense to vote one of the two people you find the most likely scummy? Especially keeping a vote on the person who has the most vote, especially with the threat of deadline looming?

[kilmenator]

with four players down in a mini, and some scums out there, and prolly an sk, I think a mass claim is a good idea at this point, I can go first if all are agreed.

[kilmenator]

I've never been clear on the whole "benefits of a massclaim" idea... this is only my 4th game. Can someone break it down for me?

Won't mafia simply all claim townie? How does that help us?

Sometimes the roles have something in common or some sort of flavor, or something that will help us know the claim is true, and usually scum, well not usually, but sometimes, scum will claim power role and take a chance, and then there could be a counter, with three deaths last night, we know we have killing scum, prolly vig, and prolly a sk. So it will narrow it down quite a bit.

[kilmenator]

I'm not a fan of a dice-determined order, because we should be able to do better than random given that we have information. To take power out of scum's hands, I'd be okay with Kilm determining the entire claim order as long as she goes first, though.

I would be fine with this, is this the general consensus? Cause as soon as two others agree, I will start.

[kilmenator]

Alright, to start the claiming off, here goes.

I am a one shot vig, my flavor would go in there if there were flavor, but there is no flavor, so there is nothing in the PM. One time per game, in the night I can send in the name of a person to kill. I win when all threats are elminated from the town.

Last night I took out MBL. As I said before, I have played with MBL and he is a really good BS'er, he really messes with the town and confuses the town, that is why yesterday I was fine with letting MBL off the hook because I knew I was going to take a shot at him last night, I figured he probably was not the doc, but obviously I was wrong. If you look back at my posts, I kind of let people know I was a vig by saying that I was pretty sure that MBL wouldnt make it through the night.
This is how I would like the claim list to go.

Nanook -
Off the Mark-
superstring -
pete d-
gorkat-
pie

[kilmenator]

Whoops! Sorry Dasq, I got the list from the first page, and you arent on it... Please forgive me! Anyway, why dont you just go last. That way it wont mess any of the order up.

[kilmenator]

well, we are waiting on pete d for now, then gorkat, pie, and dasq.

I think we need to hold out on who we think we are suspicious of until, we have all claims.

[kilmenator]

Ok, those who have claimed thus far, can you please give us an idea of what was in your role PM? You are not allowed to quote it, however you can summarize and give us an idea of what it said.

Thus far we have
Kilm- one shot vig
Nanook - vanilla townie
Off the Mark- vanilla townie
superstring - vanilla townie
pete d- vanilla townie

When we are all finished claiming I will give some input on what I think the set up will be/is.

[kilmenator]

Let me guess dasq, vanilla.

[kilmenator]

I believe kilm's claim. Since we had a gunsmith and a watcher, it seems we had some less common roles, and a one-shot vig fits in with that. If I were a one-shot vig, I would have never chosen to kill MBL on Day 1 though. Why didn't you wait until you had a better target later in the game, kilm? Why would you choose someone who had claimed doc? Did you believe MBL's claim of not-doc?

I have played with MBL before, I know how he plays. The one game I was in with him, he convinced people to have 3 mislynches, I have never seen anyone as manipulative as him in a game. It seemed to fit the bill that he would have unclaimed doc, so that he could claim something else in the game. The other game I was in with him, he had a similar playstyle, and claimed 3 different things, leading the townies, good experienced players down with him. Take a look at DOOM II and you will see what I mean. MBL is a very good player as scum, and the recanted claim seemed to fit the bill for him. Plus, it prevented the scum from playing the mean game of WIFOM with us, which they obviously intended to do.

My ideas on setup- I am inclined to beleive that we have a mafia team, prolly 2 scums and an SK. So three scummy people. Three scums + an SK is to much anti town power, and since we had three kills last night, we definitely have three killing powers. So we have at least 3 lying people that we need to lynch.

So, my ideas Off the mark is #1- he wasnt really against claiming, but alluded to the fact that he didnt want to be figured in with scum because he thought scum would claim townie, which in my experience, usually they do not. My second suspect would be superstring- kinda lurking around, not saying too much serious about anything. And then a tie at #3 between Nanook and Gorkat- the former because I just dont feel right about him and the latter for pretty much the same reasons.

I am inclined to agree that we should look at the voting record on MBL and see who really wanted him dead, because scum would defintely have wanted to get rid of him, and they would know he was not one of them, also we know they intended to try to get him lynched today with the whole WIFOM game, so I am inclined to think that is a good place to start. Also, I think we all should outline our top three suspects at this time, if we do lynch scum today, which we have to, it will give us info to go on.

[kilmenator]

Unless he figured there was a real cop who is also lying about his claim. This is a possibility. Since our doc is dead, cop can't get protection tonight, so he would probably claim vanilla - and rightly so. Setup could easily be:

3 scum (lied in massclaim)
1 SK (lied in massclaim)
1 one-shot vig (kilm, told truth in massclaim)
1 cop (lied in massclaim)
1 doc DEAD
1 gunsmith DEAD
1 watcher DEAD
3 townies (1 DEAD, 2 told truth in massclaim)

IF this is the setup, (big if) we have a pretty good shot at a scum lynch if we simply lynch a vanilla claimer.

Cop would have been stupid to lie. Cop has innocents and/or guiltys so I am inclined to think there is not a cop the fact that you even brought it up makes you look more scummy to me. Plus, I highly doubt there would be 3 scums and an SK.

[kilmenator]

I am back from vacation, will try to post something of substance tomorrow.

[kilmenator]

Alright, after catching up, OTM looks the scummiest to me. He seems to jump around with his vote a lot, and never really gives a solid reason why. Why change your vote so quickly from gork to superstring? Feelings right now are that OTM and gork could be scum buddies, not sure if there would be a third.

[kilmenator]

I am here, but like I said, I am pretty busy.

PJ- my whole kill was based on how MBL played in another game I was in, he was scum, total scum and I called him day 1, yet he is so good at stretching the truth and getting people to believe him, I was not going to allow scum to play with us, if scum didnt kill him, I would. Maybe that doesnt make much sense to you, but after thinking it through, I still think I did the right thing. MBL would have had nothing to prove his innocence since it doesnt look like he made a successful heal, or we as the town would be majorly screwed being that there are then 3 evil killing groups.

I see the case for a no lynch though and think that may be our best bet, as the killing groups need to take each other out, and if the do not, I highly doubt come morning I will be around.

vote: no lynch