mini 1662: Paint the village red

[bji]

Is it annoying anyone else that the 'M' in 'mini' is not a capital in the thread title?

Yeah I noticed it and was annoyed and then annoyed at myself for being annoyed.

Happy to sheep you.

VOTE: Scripten

[bji]

vot: bji

Nice tr

[bji]

I do

VOTE: Slandaar

Policy, not RVS.

OK, I'll bite. Please explain.

[bji]

Town won't win as long as Slandaar is alive, regardless of his alignment

That seems like it must be an exaggeration. No way could one person derail a whole team like that. Sounds to me like you have an axe to grind. Also, your opening play here of taking the first non-RVS stance but then failing to back it up with anything convincing doesn't bode well.

[bji]

Basically that.

There's a fairly decent chance that my vote doesn't change at all today.

I've never seen anyone go through an entire Day without changing their RVS vote. So I can't imagine why you would have said that. Did you vote Unlynchable because he voted Slandaar?

[bji]

UNVOTE: Scripten
VOTE: Unlynchable

Rationale: his attempts to seem concerned that certain players are dooming town to a loss feels forced.

This is not an RVS vote. Now I'm playing for reals.

[bji]

Massive, do you dislike it when you don't have a vote out?

I generally like having a vote placed (it is the town's only weapon) but I'm not a vote bouncer-arounder.

Your assertion that placing votes is the town's only weapon is only true if there are no town power roles. Are you saying that you know that there are no town power roles?

[bji]

Maybe Slandaar will be a policy lynch after all.

Bji, are you serious?

Can you provide a quote so I know what you're asking me about?

I really don't see the point in talking semantics right now. It could trigger some response, but discussing about it will get exhausting.

Not intending to get into a long debate on semantics. However, it's a valid question. In my experience, the best way to find scum is to identify places where they didn't realize what they were saying or how it would be read given their own scummy state of mind. massive's post may qualify. I am giving him a chance to explain further.

[bji]

Your assertion that placing votes is the town's only weapon is only true if there are no town power roles. Are you saying that you know that there are no town power roles?

This.

Got it. Responded to in post 102 (obv).

[bji]

I really don't see the point in talking semantics right now. It could trigger some response, but discussing about it will get exhausting.

Not intending to get into a long debate on semantics. However, it's a valid question. In my experience, the best way to find scum is to identify places where they didn't realize what they were saying or how it would be read given their own scummy state of mind. massive's post may qualify. I am giving him a chance to explain further.

Maybe I'm thinking too hard on this, but that post sounded more like subtle role-fishing than scumhunting. Just saying.

Do you mean the one you are responding to (post 105), or the original post (post 92)?

I am not familiar with all roles that could be possible in this game. It is possible that there is a scum or third party role that knows that there are only vanilla town in the game. I don't see the harm in asking. If massive is a townie who has special knowledge, then he will not reveal that, nor should he, just because I asked. If massive is scum/third party, pointing out his possible slip may make him more self conscious and make his alignment easier to detect in future posts.

I have seen situations in which a single pronoun choice (i.e. saying "you will" instead of "we will" for example) has been a clue to alignment, FWIW. Not a strong clue, but I'm not expecting strong clues this early in the game.

[bji]

I'm tempted to go with a policy lynch on BBT. I've played two games with him and he's pushed heavily to get whomever he wants lynched lynched. I suppose calling him out will end with my immediate lynch as it did before, but I'm not sure I want to continue playing with him if that's how his "meta" that he claims to manipulate works.

Well, for what it's worth, he's not going to be bullying

me

into voting for anyone unless there is good reason to, and I suspect that's true of most people playing this game. If you're saying that BBT is good at making good cases, then I really have no problem with that. If you're saying that BBT somehow manages to strongarm people into making bad lynches ... yeah, that's not gonna happen. Weird that you're so worried about it.

[bji]

What if Wanderer-nl is an alt who is keeping the idea of a no lynch in our subconscious minds and selectively plays games only as scum? I think this is worth exploration

Slandaar still needs to be lynched

This post really worries me. I vote Unlynchable "player most likely to try to grief the game and get mod killed". The content of this post is so off the wall, combined with your join date, combined with the user name you selected, combined with you only caring about attacking Slandaar ... I smell griefer.

[bji]

Well after thinking about it I have concluded Unlynchable is scum.

You have any thoughts on any part of this game aside from Unlynchable's early tunnel on you?

[bji]

I think we've had a lot of personalities on display so far this game and lots of stuff that will help in later days but little to reveal alignments today. This stood out for me though:

Unlynchable is a useless sack insofar but I don't like any of the people who followed me onto it, and given Slandaar's posting so far it's possible his meta has changed over two years.

It seems premature to have such strong opinions about players as to use the "don't like any of the people who followed me onto it" line. It just feels off to me to use that line so early. It's usually a line reserved for reasoning about why you wouldn't join a wagon, not a way to spread uncertainty about players who apparently agree with your lynch choice. Just weird.

Second, the people who "followed' you onto the wagon were me (not sure why you don't like me?) and more interestingly, Garmr. Garmr has agreed with you on almost everything: he questioned Unlynchable's reasoning for wanting to policy lynch Slandaar like you did, he did some soft defence of you in post 36 and 40, and he's been at odds with BBT just as much as you have.

I see zero reason for you to have made that statement about the wagon you "started" (in as much as an RVS vote can be considered to start anything).

Finally, at this point Slandaar had made a single post, with a smiley face and nothing else. The choice of words "Slandarr's posting so far" is strange, it would seem more accurate to say "Slandaar's lack of posting so far". Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but this sort of thing tends to be a red flag to me that RadiantCowBells may have had communication with Slandaar outside of the game thread, or alternately, knows

Also, post 34, Garmr asks you how to address you with a gender appropriate pronoun, when later he is so unaware of Wanderer's gender that he calls her a him repeatedly. That's incongruous. Why so interested in your gender when apparently gender awareness is not otherwise an issue that he pays attention to?

Not sure when Garmr is going to be starting V/LA so not sure if he's going to be able to respond to any of this, unfortunately.

Also, for what it's worth, RadiantCowBell changed her "decent chance that my vote doesn't change today" vote already, as expected. Still don't understand what the point of that statement was.

[bji]

PEDIT: Hit submit in the middle of an edit due to being interrupted by a co-worker. Dangling sentence in the middle should have finished"

"or alternately, you know something about his alignment and that has subconsciously affected your perception of what he's posted thus far in this game".

[bji]

Bji do you have any scum games under your belt?

Yes, one, my first.

Curious to know the rationale for this question. It feels like you may be implying that I wouldn't know how to recognize scum if I've never been a scum, but I'll let you tell me if that's what you meant.

[bji]

Well I'm not sure I want to insert myself into the middle of this, but what the hell.

pisskop, apparently you have some history with BBT and you're trying to use your familiarity with his communication style to infer his alignment in this game. Normally I would discount this approach outright, but I've seen you have success with it so I'm holding my doubt at bay momentarily. I would like to understand this better:

So you plan to keep your townreads throughout the game? Note you aren't 'townreading' them, you're calling them town. On page 9, only 1 color role PM should know who is town.

I have noticed that BBT has made statements that one would normally consider to be matters of opinion (i.e. "I think X is scum") as statements of fact (i.e. "X is scum"). I thought this was a little brazen but I had assumed that this was just his normal way of trying to drive the game by drawing lines in the sand and inviting debate.

What I'd like to know is, since you have history with BBT, do you find his way of stating his townreads unusual in this game? Aren't those direct "X is town" posts normal for him?

[bji]

Hey wanderer, if you want a response then you'll have to respond to me.

Why is my laziness with quoting alignment indicative?

I don't think Wanderer ever said it was alignment indicative, but I'll let her answer for herself.

However, I can say that the more context you provide to make your posts easier to understand, the more helpful you are being. The whole game is not you winning personal arguments with other players, that's not going to get us anywhere. You need to build a case that can be convincing to town and part of doing that is making it reasonably easy to follow the argument. When you provide quotes without attribution, it can be hard to follow. It can also be deceptive (intentionally or not) when the person being quoted changes but there is no easy way for the reader to know.

If you're town, you should be trying to make your arguments clear, not obfuscating them. I am at a loss to understand why you wouldn't know this already, and are going so far as to challenge other players who are pointing it out to you.

It can be really annoying to manage quote tags in these forums. I find that if I open a new browser window and select a section of text from a post I want to quote, then press the "quote" button, I get a nice chunk of text that I can paste into the post I am working on, that pasted text containing all of the nice linky details you'd ever want to have to make it easy for people to follow.

[bji]

The story does not make sense thus he is scum. If it was a recent event, which it isn't, you can argue for just mindless rage, but you can't do that here he has rolled scum and acted accordingly.

OK, just so I'm clear on this, Unlynchable is scum not trying to scumhunt, not trying to participate and hide his alignment through town-liike behavior, not doing anything at really except scummily deciding to tunnel on a player for no reason right out of the gate.

This is your belief about Unlynchable?

[bji]

Because I couldn't see radiant cowbells gender and the people on this site who don't use he or she get really snarky if you use the wrong gender pronoun. Kinda surprised wanderer didn't cut off my for a honest mistake (her avi reminds me of privates skype avatar.)

A reasonable explanation. Do you agree with the rest of the post where I point out how strange it is for RC to be disliking you for being on her wagon?

[bji]

Unlynchable is a useless sack insofar but I don't like any of the people who followed me onto it

It's less disliking the people and more neither of these people are strong townreads and I don't like a wagon being formed on this basis.

A better wording would be I don't like the fact that these people are on this wagon WRT

I don't like it strategically.

It's nothing to do with the alignments of the players, but I feel like getting a wagon on someone like Unlynchable early on will just cause him to just flake out the remainder of the game.

We start with "I don't like these players", move on to "It's not that I don't like them, it's just they're not strong townreads", then to "It's more that I don't like that anyone else followed me onto the wagon", and finally end with, "It's that I don't like the wagon because it might hurt Unlynchable's feelings."

Explain to me why this isn't caught scum backpedalling from an indefensible position.

Also, explain why you're so worried about Unlynchable flaking out. Where's the town motivation in watering down pressure just because you're worried about how the person being pressured will react? And, how is that consistent with calling him a "usless sack"? Aren't you worried that will cause him to "flake out"?

[bji]

OK, just so I'm clear on this, Unlynchable is scum not trying to scumhunt,

I suppose so. He isn't doing any if he is town either so your point here seems terrible.

Yes, he's not really playing. I'm not calling that a town tell but I'm also not calling it a scum tell like you are.

not trying to participate

He has tried to.

Not in a meaningful way.

not doing anything at really except scummily deciding to tunnel on a player for no reason right out of the gate.

Yes. Again, what is your point? his actions in the thread are null? perhaps if I were someone else, I am not, thus we know he wants a PL for not liking me, do you understand why that means he does not join the game if he intended to take this course of action? He is taking it because he is scum who thinks he can get away with it.

I can think of several reasons for his behavior:

1. He didn't pay close attention to the player list and didn't realize that you would be in the game, and when he saw you were, he decided to grind his axe, for whatever reason.

2. He picked you randomly as someone to push on in a really bizarre tunnel-y way, as some kind of weak and ineffectual scum hunting technique (applying nonsensical pressure to someone to see how they'd react).

3. He's not paying close attention to the game and just decided to go with a tunnel as the most bang-for-the-buck early play.

I certainly agree with you that his behavior is weird and demands explanation. I'm just not willing to go all the way to concluding he is definitively scum because of it. You'll notice that I'm voting him, because I did find his claims to be worried about town losing seemed faked/forced for the purpose of appearing townie. So I am also suspicious of him. I just don't find the logical leap from "he's doing weird bussing" to "he decided to bus me before the game even began" to be compelling.

Let's keep an eye on the guy, but please don't tunnel too hard on him yourself, as I believe tunneling on Unlynchable is probably not the best play for town at this early juncture of the game.

[bji]

BTW (2) seems most likely to me. His claims that you need to be policy lynched didn't resonate with anyone else who has any experience with you. Makes me believe that he picked you randomly and doesn't really know anything about you.

[bji]

Explain to me why this isn't caught scum backpedalling from an indefensible position.

Well, you seem convinced.

I will be if you offer no explanation in your defense. I might be anyway ...

If I were as smart as you and I was convinced about something, I'd immediately reconsider it.

Is that some kind of insult? Do you feel better now?

[bji]

Ah, you think I care about meta.

That's a mistake on your part.

But you care about meta when you think it helps your case ...

You're definitely not your usual self.

("your usual self" implies meta knowledge about what is "usual" for that player)

I'm saying to you if you go and look at my games you will see I use the same wording as either alignment.

(if you don't care about meta, why are you asking someone else to look at your meta?)

I won't be getting lynched toDay.

It would take anybody 5 seconds to look at any of my games on this site to see that I pretty much always say 'X is town/scum'.

(once again, appealing to meta)

Your ego comes into it when you think that you could rattle me with one post. There are people in this game who have seen me be run up to L-1 when I have been scum, still, no rattling. To think you could do it after a single post in which you OMGUS'ed me? Please, big ego. I also replaced into a game that you were in, so yeah, I know you're pretty egotistical.

(lots of meta knowledge brought to bear here)

You're usually much, much more cautious when trying to read me; especially early in a game. Makes it worse that you're justifying your read on meta when you know full well I manipulate my meta as much as possible.

(read based on meta, with an added bit of hypocrisy where you read Scripten based on meta while criticizing him for reading you based on meta)

I don't think any of this is alignment indicative. But I don't think you get a free pass to discount other people's statements that rely on meta just because you claim to never respect meta.

[bji]

You could probably find similar comments in every single game I have ever played.

I still don't care for meta.

Well I don't, either, and I agree with your sig. But I think we all recognize that a certain amount of appealing to meta is normal and can be beneficial in supporting arguments if used in the right way. Although arguments based solely on meta are right out. One of my biggest pet peeves in this game (in my whole 4 games (including this one) of experience) is when people

ask for

examples of meta as evidence of an argument. For example:

Player A: I always do X when Y.
Player B: Can you give me a game link showing how you always do X when Y?
Player A: OK, here you go!
Player B: I see, I guess you were telling the truth.

That's just ridiculously bad, because player A can be totally gaming their statement in advance knowing that they'll be able to cherrypick an example from a prior game to "support" their statement. And furthermore, a single example doesn't prove that Player A "always" does X when Y anyway. And furthermore, just because they "always" did it before doesn't mean they're doing it now.

In such an exchange, I get very suspicious of both player A and player B because A is using such an easily gamed statement, and B asked for what they must know is non-evidence and then accepted it. Feels like a charade meant to imply that B was suspicious of A when they really weren't.

Anyway, this is not particularly relevant to this game at this point, so back to your regularly scheduled programming ...

[bji]

No, I just think it's laughable because I've already named my second biggest scumread.

And you never answered whether or not it was Pisskop, which is what I asked you to begin with. At this point, the only reasonable conclusion to make out of all this is that you just enjoy being difficult to play with.

Agreed.

@RadiantCowbells: You're likely to be lynched for being uncooperative, if not today, then eventually, and if you're town, that's no good for town. I've seen it happen before. If you're town and you really want to help town, you need to stop being so antagonistic towards people asking you questions. You also need to start making your posts easier to follow, especially by including proper quote tags. (By the way, if you're scum, then keep doing what you're doing.)

[bji]

I think RadiantCowbells is an ideal lynch at this point. There has been enough interaction with her from several players that her flip will provide more information that almost anyone. Furthermore, the way things are going, I don't see her helping town much if she is town.

UNVOTE: Unlynchable
VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[bji]

See^^

instead of discussing them he calls them stupid,oronic, etc.

But they

are

stupid, oronic, etc.

[bji]

Im pfp, but

vote: Scripten

pedit: Bji, Youre voting RC for doing what she does as a playstyle, andy points about the aggressive disingenuity of his posts are stupid :/

Did you read what I wrote pisskop? I specifically stated that I would like to see her lynched for the info it will provide and because I think she's unhelpful. If you need me to expand on that last point, I believe that alot of posting in this thread thus far has revolved around people arguing with RadiantCowbells and I don't really see her trying to scum hunt so much as just win pointless arguments. I anticipate this generating noise that drowns out more useful posts that could be happening. That in itself could provide scum motivation for her postings.

Also, although I didn't mention it, I don't think she extricated herself from my case against her backpedal from her statements about not liking who was on her wagon. She just kind of gave up on that one, which is kind of weird don't you think considering that there's almost no petty argument that she hasn't given up on otherwise?

[bji]

bji, Im pfp

Go meta dive RC.

Yeah, I don't really do meta. I don't really care how she presented herself in prior games. In this game, I think she's a good lynch candidate. That's enough for me.

Also help me lynch Scripty.

I've been watching the action closely and I don't really buy your case against him, at all. I'll re-read the discussion.

[bji]

Gee, we've been here before bji.

Im a dummy and you dont buy my cases. How many scum do I have to flip before yoy work withme?

I never said you were a dummy. I respect your skillz. But the implication that I should buy your cases because they are from you implies that I trust you in this game, and I don't.

Your presumption that I would trust you kind of implies that you trust me though. Do you?

[bji]

Gee, we've been here before bji.

Im a dummy and you dont buy my cases. How many scum do I have to flip before yoy work withme?

I never said you were a dummy. I respect your skillz. But the implication that I should buy your cases because they are from you implies that I trust you in this game, and I don't.

Your presumption that I would trust you kind of implies that you trust me though. Do you?

Enough to want to work with you

Well I am working with you, if you're town, already. I'm reading your interactions with other players and making my best assessments of what they mean. What I'm not going to do is just vote Scripten because he's the person you most recently had a tit-for-tat with, or because you have a "gut feeling", or whatever.

I get the feeling that by "working with you" you may also mean going and reading something about RC's meta. You know I'm disinclined to do that because <insert BBT's sig here>. Maybe if you tell me exactly what you want me to look for and why, I'll

consider

it.

[bji]

BBTs sig is an opinion, one he's elaborated on with a qualifuer this very game.

Just. Go. Read. two. Game. of. Theirs. Skim their isos. That takes like 10 minutes.
. To assess their playstyle

Sorry who is "theirs"? I know RC is one. Who is the other?

By the way I completely believe you that RC's currently style is her "meta-established playstyle". I don't even need to read meta to be convinced of that, so why bother?

[bji]

Basically, BJI seems to me to be using by the book logic to suggest that the optimal play is to act like a donkey with it's head up it's ass. (get it?)

A donky with it is head up it is ass? No, I don't get it.

[bji]

Cuz it's a donkey which is an ass!

Wow are you dense.

[bji]

On re-read of pisskop/Scripten, I think that pisskop started out mostly just prodding Scripten. Perhaps recognized that Scripten was already being frustrated by RC and decided that adding some fuel to that fire might make for some interesting fireworks.

In the end though, Scripted's reads and reasoning remained consistent throughout. I really didn't see anything that struck me as a slip from him. And given that he was on the defensive end of some attacks meant to rattle him, I think there's something to be said for that. Sorry pisskop, I'm not seeing the case on Scripten.

As far as pisskop goes, I do find his behavior odd. After re-reading the entire exchange between pisskop and Scripten I still don't have any real idea what pisskop's case against Scripten is based on except possibly OMGUS. Also there was some mentioning of buddying lately. I feel like if anyone is being buddied, it's me, by pisskop, who wants me to implicitly trust him and "work with him" just because we played together before. Pisskop, the best way to "work with me" is to make cases that have merit.

Sorry, I'm not great at forming strong opinions based on exchanges like these. I suppose all that came out of it for me was a slight town lean on Scripten and a slight scum lean on Pisskop.

[bji]

Its clear who had the strong reaction.

That's not really fair. You goaded him and you know it. I was reading it real-time and I saw your intentions from the outset. I didn't jump in though because I wanted to see what would happen.

[bji]

You goaded him and you know it.

Excuse me? I declared my read of him. he flew off the handle.
. Is that goading to you, bji?

Starting at post 364, there was interaction between RC and Scripten that was clearly somewhat annoying to Scripten because of RC's obtuse way of "answering" Scripten's question. Example:

No, I don't care to answer, given that you somehow failed to realize the only thing I was doing in that post was questioning Mofu's logic.

RC is refusing to answer questions while continuing to make vague assertions that only invite more questions that she's then going to refuse to answer. It can be maddening to deal with someone who behaves like this, because you keep asking them stuff and they keep just not responding, but not in a way that even lets you just let it go. Hypothetical example:

Player A: I don't think I need to answer that, it's obvious why I did it and it's clear that X is scum.
Player B: Why do you say that it's clear that X is scum?
Player A: You're not getting it, just read my posts and you'll know the answer. Now I'm starting to think you're scum.
Player B: What? If I could feel confident in the answer by reading your posts, I wouldn't be asking the question. And now I'm scum? Explain.
Player A: I don't explain myself to scum.

etc.etc.

Player B can't let player A's statements go because they continue to imply things that demand response, and yet player A constantly stonewalls player B, who can't really get anywhere. Player B gets tired of having to ask questions that aren't going to be answered, and also tired of Player A making posts that require being questioned instead of just saying in more detail what they mean. When we make partial statements that we could have just explained in our original post, and then require others to have to ask us to clarify something that we should have just made sure was clear in the first place as a courtesy to other players ... that gets annoying.

RC was annoying Scripten in this way, and when pisskop came along and did more of the same thing, I think it drove Scripten a little over the edge.

1) thats weak Scripten. You have earned my finger.

2) Instead of asking her for about those posts, you try to be obtuse about it?

That's goading Scripting, who was already annoyed that he was the one in the RC/Scripten debate trying to get info and being stonewalled, and now pisskop comes in and accuses him of trying to be obtuse.

Scripten's response in 363 makes it clear that he felt he was being goaded:

1) thats weak Scripten. You have earned my finger.

2) Instead of asking her for about those posts, you try to be obtuse about it?

I

did

ask her. 357. It's right fucking there. I asked for secondary scumreads, saying that I thought you were her secondary scumread. HOW IS THIS NOT CRYSTAL CLEAR?

For fuck's sake, man.

And why are you so goddamn protective of RC, anyway? It's like as soon as the slightest criticism comes her way, you hop right in.

Here is also the point where I feel that pisskop's goading and Scripten's mindset about his debate with RC and now pisskop is causing him to OMGUS. I can't see how pisskop is being "protective of RC" as much as he's just trying to opportunistically get a rise out of Scripten.

More goading:

Yea. Scripty could be scum.

You wanted her to call ne scummy so you could justify a push on me. If you wanted her to be clear, you would have pulked the soecific posts/content.

And Scripten's response obviously shows that the goading continues to be effective:

Yea. Scripty could be scum.

You wanted her to call ne scummy so you could justify a push on me. If you wanted her to be clear, you would have pulked the soecific posts/content.

This is a moronic point and wholly ignorant of context. At least I'm happy now with my vote on you. Pretty sure now that RC is just antagonistic town and you're buddying her. I highly doubt a competent scumteam would play this way.

Anyway, I won't keep going on this because I think I've made my point and this post is really long already.

I do not know whether pisskop's provocation of Scripten in this way and his subsequent disingenuous claims of innocence come from someone trying to pressure scum into a scumslip, or from scum just trying to make someone look bad with the goal of getting a mislynch. If others have thoughts on that, I'd love to hear them.

[bji]

@bji
So because In direct w/him Im goading? Youre pushing a narrative to suit your opinion

That's your opinion. I back my opinions up with quotes and explanations. Would be nice if you did the same ...

[bji]

That's your opinion. I back my opinions up with quotes and explanations. Would be nice if you did the same ...

Are you kidding? that's exactly what I did, and you unironically ask that I use quotes when that's the whole point of my push on Scripty. Go fuck yourself

Are we "working together" now?

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells
VOTE: pisskop

[bji]

I just don't understand this game sometimes. Do people with such incredibly thin skins really join games whose while mechanic is to get people to ARGUE on the INTERNET and then get all upset when things don't go their way? Really? That's like throwing yourself into a pit of crocodiles and then being surprised when you get bitten.

The thing is, I think pisskop is cleverer than that. I think something else is going on here. Not sure what, exactly ...

[bji]

I do not believe pisskop's claim for a second.

However, I need more time to think about this and unfortunately I am just on my way out the door.

UNVOTE: pisskop

[bji]

Also don't care. If you dumbassses lynch me I'll hold this up as a meta example. Zero issues fucking over the team if you aren't going to work with me.

If you didn't care you wouldn't be getting so emotional about it. People who don't care don't bother to call other people "dumbasses", nor do they make threats about "fucking over the team" (by the way playing against your win condition violates both the spirit of and the actual rules of the game). Also you're smarter than your claim that people have to "work with you" while at the same time doing everything in your power to make it so that no one can effectively work with you (which is how I see your "tantrum" as PB is calling it). PB is right as rain when he point out that day 1 is all about weak reads and it's really disingenuous to act like you have the game all figured out and we're just all too dumb to see the obvious truths in front of us.

I really think pisskop is working on something here. What, I don't know exactly. I do not believe his doctor claim; I'm hesitant to even say that because if pisskop is town who wants scum to believe he's doctor, then I do too. But I don't think scum is any more fooled than I am, unless we have some naive scum here.

Actually just realized something about the "fucking over the team" comment. You cannot say that you'll take actions that would fuck over town without violating the game rules. So pisskop has put himself in a position where he is either claiming an intent to violate the rules, or is scum for whom fucking over town wouldn't be a rules violation. The thing I don't know is, does pisskop realize that? Or is his rage really not faked, is it real, and he just doesn't understand what he's saying?

[bji]

Naive scum.

Hrm.

Bji to my knowledge you didn't explain your bus comment earlier I would very much like you to.

Quote it, otherwise I have no idea exactly what you're talking about.

[bji]

I just don't find the logical leap from "he's doing weird bussing" to "he decided to bus me before the game even began" to be compelling.

What?

Oh OK, we're going into the way back machine here ...

So what I was saying was that your position against Unlynchable is predicated on the belief that Unlynchable had made decisions about how to play this game before even entering it. You claim that he could have decided not to join the game given whatever he doesn't like about you as a player, rather than join it and have to tunnel you early based on whatever his position is on you. This implies that he was thinking about you as a player before the game began and had a plan on what to do about you.

I think I probably accidentally used the wrong word when I said 'bus' in that comment that you quoted, because obv. that implies that you're both scum. I meant to say 'tunnel'. If you're both scum it would be bussing, but I didn't mean to imply that in my comment because that was not my read at the time (nor is it now).

TL;DR:

I meant to use the words 'tunneling' and 'tunnel' in that quote, not 'bussing' and 'bus'.

Dare I even ask if you have any comments on anything else in this game aside from Unynchable?

[bji]

Scripten, can you link me to a time where you have accurately accused someone of being scum based on a paranoid-seeming RVS vote?

Trawling for meta garbage? Bleh. If he is able to give you a link, what will you conclude? If he isn't, what will you conclude?

[bji]

meta is not garbage lol.

Post 349 explains why I think what you're doing here is garbage. But, it's your right to play how you like, so, carry on.

[bji]

I'm actually pretty townreading epm right now.

How so? There's so little to go on.

[bji]

Or better yet, do you think I'm making up an EPM read?

In that case, why do you think I'm pretending to townread EPM and what does it say about my alignment?

I don't know why your bothering to post that you have a town read on EPM if you're not willing to entertain questions about it. Who exactly are you writing to when you make a post that says "I'm actually pretty townreading epm right now"? Yourself? If so, you'd save us all some time if you'd have conversations with yourself outside of the thread instead of in it.

Now, if your statement was meant to be read by other players, can you explain why you would not want to elaborate upon your statement when asked?

[bji]

Or better yet, do you think I'm making up an EPM read?

I'm not accusing you of making anything up. I just want to understand what you're seeing that I'm not seeing.

[bji]

@Mod

: You've got pisskop in the vote count three times (voting for both peacebringer and mofonugen and also not voting). I don't know how this works exactly but supposedly there's some software that counts the votes for you ... might want to check it out.

[bji]

@Mod

: You've got pisskop in the vote count three times (voting for both peacebringer and mofonugen and also not voting). I don't know how this works exactly but supposedly there's some software that counts the votes for you ... might want to check it out.

Oh and you don't have me listed on the "not voting" line.

[bji]

Enough bullshit, pisskop. We can talk in post game about what an awful idea it is to claim early as a means for backing up fake (or real?) outrage. Also we can talk about how dumb it is to even have fake (or real?) outrage.

VOTE: pisskop

[bji]

Like, seriously the waller rejustifies a jump back onto me by wishy washing 'outrage'?

Word up. bji should have never unvoted, since I was in no danger of being lynched when I claimed. He's just being scum on the DL for towncred.

You may notice that I've made a concerted effort not to wall in this game. Maybe a few little walls in there, but you have to give me some props for trying hard to minimize it.

I unvoted you because you

were

in some danger of being lynched, I believe you were at L-2 or maybe L-3, and had just made a claim that could easily get people moving quickly on a vote. I had somewhere to go and hoped to avoid a lynch while I was gone because you claim had just happened and I hadn't had time to think it through.

I've been watching you carefully and I think you're gambiting. Your behavior is consistent with that. If you're caught scum why not gambit a fake claim and then double down with aggressive attacking play? You're taking attention away from your scum buddies at the same time since you're making the game all about

you

, keeping people occupied with trying to figure out your fake claim, and stringing people along with vague arguments that you claim are so convincing that everyone feels like if they conclude that you're full of shit, they'll be missing something.

Try to see the game from the point of view of anyone except yourself, you may find that elucidating. How would you feel about me if I had built up a case that was no more convincing than three or four others that have been made here, then threw a tantrum because nobody was willing to just believe me, then claimed doctor out of the blue, then/concurrently with that was all pissy and insulting?

[bji]

Conviction of case? You know a perfectly vaible scum tactic is just to chant the same case/meme/phrase over and over until your target is lynched? Dont be stupid about this, BBT. You arent new, why do I have to explain why a player w/12 years experience knows better than to make an unbackable, weak meta case and sticks to it?

Let me understand this. You are claiming that a player with 12 years experience knows better than to do something that paints them as scum, but does it anyway?

[bji]

@pisskop: I have noticed really distinct parallels between phrases you have used and techniques you have used in this game when compared to another game we played in together. The problem is, that game is still in progress. As a result, I cannot speak about these things directly. I would like to suggest to you that if you are trying to mimic behavior of a game in progress, you're putting anyone familiar with that game in a really awkward position.

[bji]

OK, holy shit you guys, you put 12 pages in since I last checked, and I'm too happy, uh, "celebrating" Arsenal's win to mentally process 12 pages. Did you guys lynch someone? OK maybe I'll read the last page ...

OK you didn't but it looks juicy and maybe I should be less celebratory tomorrow.

What stood out for me here is "Did you guys lynch someone"? That's a silly thing to say because you already know that we didn't, since if we did the thread would be locked. Feels like the kind of thing that scum wanting to casually drop lines that give the impression of being a disinterested townie would say.

[bji]

Pisskop is town.

We should lynch Unlynchable and move to D2.

Leaving aside the fact that your case on Unlynchable is weak sauce's weak sauce, exactly what info will we gather from an Unlynchable flip? Let's say that he flips scum. As I comb back through Day 1's postings, what exactly will I do with that knowledge?

I can think of only one thing I would do with that knowledge - lynch you as a scum bussing buddy.

[bji]

Wanderer, how do you feel about Slandaar's assertion that we should just lynch Unlynchable? Do you think that Unlynchable is a good choice for a Day 1 lynch?

[bji]

When I die this will be immorialized. Lynch it.

You expect to die before PB is lynched?

[bji]

So yeah, maybe lynching unlynchable is a good idea, since he is one of the lurkers.

If we lynch Unlynchable and he flips scum, who would you go after next?

[bji]

vote: pisskop

I lost count. Was that a self-hammer?

[bji]

Why didn't you answer my questions?

Why did you vote me to L-1 after I made it clear I would self hammer andyou noted it?

Explain why you would self hammer.

[bji]

@pisskop: Also, knock it off with the indignation. That's just childish. If you really believe that everyone should have just believed you because you're "obviously so right" then you are just completely fucking

dense

. Make a believable case, don't throw a temper tantrum, take your ball, and run away home.

[bji]

lol @ bji being useless.

Get PB. And then make bji feel silly.

If we do lynch PB, and he ends up being scum, then I'll happily admit my mistake.

If he flips town, will you admit that you threw a hissy fit for no reason?

[bji]

Also pisskop, I felt like in this game you were trying to bait me into giving you information that will help you in the other game, but I wouldn't do it. We can talk about that more when that game is over ...

[bji]

what?

Nevermind that you cross talking, but what? I want you to logocally think about what you said and why its stupid and non logical.

DONT TALK ABOUT ONGOING GAMES

I'm not talking about other games, I'm talking about this game and your behavior in it. But I retract the statement. Probably was hasty of me to throw an accusation like that out there, likely flavored by how pissed I am at you right now for self hammering as town.

[bji]

Once again pisskop, please give your justifcation for self hammering. Describe how you were playing to town's win condition.

[bji]

Sounds like a fun role to play. So why would you kill yourself instead of playing it out?

[bji]

Any chance that you're some kind of weird serial killer whose vote doesn't count and you're just trying to trick us into thinking you self hammered?

@Mod

: Can we get some action here? I'll send a PM.

[bji]

I think it would be fun to have a role whose vote was just a phantom vote and didn't count. Would add for an interesting dynamic.

More to the point, if pisskop doesn't end up having any justification for self hammering aside from sour grapes and/or trying to establish some kind of meta, I expect to be requesting some site admin action.

[bji]

Good luck with that.

Are you admitting that your self hammer played against your win condition?

[bji]

So pisskop, you're saying that Wanderer put you on L-1 assuming that you'd self hammer, and then tried to pretend that she didn't know she put you on L-1?

1. Why should she have believed that you would have self hammered? I certainly didn't believe you were that bad of a player (but I've been proven wrong). Why should she have? (yes, she pointed out in 726 that your saying 'one more vote' was a threat to self hammer, that just explains what you meant, it doesn't mean that she or anyone else actually believed you would do it).

2. Why would Wanderer, if she's scum, even put herself in a position to be criticized in that way? If she is scum, she's been playing a pretty cautions game as one, I haven't seen her involved in any direct confrontations with anyone. Suddenly deciding to jump into the spotlight by effectively hammering you is incongruent with that.

3. Why is it not believable that she didn't know that she was really putting you at L-1? I personally did not know what the exact vote count was, it's kind of hard to keep track of and one does get tired of having to skim through pages of posts to do a vote count in your head. Not to mention that this is an error prone means of counting votes.

All you're doing at this point is weakening whatever case you're trying to make that we should vote PB because you're so obviously correct about stuff. The very best thing you could do for town right now is to explain why you self hammered and take away our doubt (or my doubt at least, not sure how everyone else feels) about whether there is anything at all worth listening to you about.

[bji]

Good luck with that.

Are you admitting that your self hammer played against your win condition?

Im claiming that you dont know the difference.

Well there's one difference between you and me. I'm still in the game, because I'm not a moron.

[bji]

You're all a bunch of clowns.

Unlynchable/Wanderer are 2 of the scum.

Awesome. Following the pisskop school of town play? Should we expect a self hammer from you too?

[bji]

You're all a bunch of clowns.

Unlynchable/Wanderer are 2 of the scum.

Awesome. Following the pisskop school of town play? Should we expect a self hammer from you too?

Why would I ever be at L-1?

It was a rhetorical question. The point was that you're not really making any cases that anyone else can be expected to believe, and at the same time you're acting like everyone else should just believe you because ... you're awesome, or something; not sure exactly.

Bji assumes Pisskop is town too quick.

Maybe he is the 3rd. A lot of his posting is awful.

This is true. I was working on the assumption that pisskop would have no reason to lie or be coy in twilight, but I dunno, maybe he's just a troll that likes making noise.

[bji]

OK I'm going to take a step back. Getting frustrated and it's showing in my posts. I'll wait to see how the flip plays out.

One final note:

Wanderer is scum because she was clearly angling to vote Pisskop assuming he self votes and voted for a terribly weak reason.

No problem.

It's just as likely that my post 727 is accurate, I think. But I would be lying if I didn't say that some of the Wanderer's sheen has come off.

[bji]

Our mod is on the ball.

[bji]

Nothing requires him to shut down twilight.

Well, you got 7 votes, so you're lynched, so the day should be over.

He hasn't read the PM I sent him about 6 hours ago (still in my outbox) alerting him to the need to take action on this game.

[bji]

Nothing requires him to shut down twilight.

Or maybe you're admitting to being lynchproof? Could that be possible in a 'normal' game like this?

[bji]

He could literally not close the ay until the full 2 weeks have elasped. Nothing is forcing him to act.

Of course I realize that. But I would expect it to be common sense/courtesy for the mod to actually move the game along instead of just letting it stagnate.

[bji]

I'm actually agreeing with Slandaar that instalynching Wanderer tomorrow is a good idea.

I'd at least wait until I posted some content before lynching me so you can maybe pick up stuff from that, regardless of my allignment.

Are you saying you don't think you've posted any content yet?

[bji]

While I work on that:
bji, it's still bothering me somewhat that it wasn't clear to you how my line of questioning with Scripten was different from looking into his meta. Can you just tell me why you thought that my question towards Scripten in 627 was about his meta? Because I think in context it's very clearly not.

When you said "Scripten, called BBT (my other potential scum read) 80-90% town while also saying that RC's maybe vote-parking is completely irrelevant to him. If anything, those are not congruent opinions and Scripten looks worse", I really don't understand your point. Scripten said that he thought BBT was 80% - 90% likely town, and since one of BBT's early accusations was of RC vote parking, Scripten seemed just to be saying that although he likes BBT for town, he doesn't necessarily agree with that accusation. What's so incongruous about that?

Now your question from post 627 was:

"Scripten, can you link me to a time where you have accurately accused someone of being scum based on a paranoid-seeming RVS vote?"

I had issue with this because you're asking Scripten to cherry pick something out of his meta for you that is completely meaningless. So what if he could link you to a time where he accurately accused someone of being scum based on a paranoid-seeming RVS vote? Like, exactly how many degrees of tenuous connections to this particular game do you have to go before the data you're collecting is completely irrelevant?

Not sure I've directly answered your question yet, which was "why you thought that my question towards Scripten in 627 was about his meta?"

The direct answer is, you asked him to provide a link to a prior game he was in which demonstrated some behavior on his part that you think is somehow relevant to this game. I don't know how to prove that this is a question about Scripten's meta, because it so patently obviously is that there's no more explanation needed.

[bji]

Is there any good reason at all for pisskop to have self hammered like that? Why would a town doctor kill themselves? That's a valuable role for town and pisskop pissed it away.

The fact that two players who were doing little in the game were killed tells me a few things:

1. We probably have a 1-shot vig, vig, or, less likely, serial killer (still not completely familiar with all possible roles in mafia, but I think this covers it)
2. Town has generally been on the wrong track. Scum is happy to have us continue to flail about, discussing the wrong people and being wrong.

I don't have time for significant analysis right now, more in a couple of hours.

[bji]

Pisskop announced it as being part of establishing a meta.
Well, next time he is scum he can go claim doctor and threaten to self-hammer and get away with it *because it's what he does as doctor*
And that's why I hate going on meta instead of what is

actually

happening in the game.

If this was his reasoning then I really want some site admin action. Because that's just unfair to other players in games for one player to choose their meta over the current game. The other game that pisskop and I were in together finished during this game's Night 1 so I can finally talk about it openly. In that game (Mini 1652, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60961), pisskop also early claimed (as "informed town"), and also used some similar phrasing in this game ("you're giving me a heart attack/stop breaking my heart/etc"). I thought possibly he was trying to fake claim here using that other game as "evidence" that this is how he plays, especially given that I personally would be very familiar with his play in 1652. But apparently he was just using both games to try to establish a meta. I am confident that in some upcoming game he

is

going to fake claim early as scum and try to use these games as "evidence". Despicable.

Enough about pisskop.

I think these players were heavily involved in Day 1:

BlueBloodedToffee
Scripten
RadiantCowbells
bji
pisskop

I think these players were involved in Day 1, but to a lesser extent:

Garmr
PeaceBringer
Wanderer-nl

I think these players mostly lurked Day 1:

massive
Slandaar
evilpacman18

I think these players completely lurked Day 1:

Unlynchable
Mofonugen

OK so, scum killed at least one player from the lurky category. As I said before, this suggests to me that there was little/no benefit in killing players from the "actually playing the game" category, which implies that the scum were not in any particular danger after Day 1. The scum kill of either Slandaar or evilpacman18 suggests to me that scum liked the Day 1 fighting between BBT/RC/me/Scripten. Of all the players in that group, there are two who have mostly escaped scum reads during Day 1: BBT and me. I'm not scum, so the only interesting person in the category of "players who played hard day 1 but didn't get many scum reads" is BBT.

Therefore, I categorize my likely scum as BBT, and one or more of the lurkers. I have really no reason aside from this analysis to regard BBT as scum, but I am going to retain suspicion there based on how Day 1 played out. I am much more interested in the lurkers for whom a continuation of Day 1 play is most beneficial. In the hardly playing/lurker still alive category we have massive, Unlynchable, and Mofonugen. Of these, I prefer massive and Mofonugen to Unlynchable for today's lynch.

And then there is post 773, which I find very convincing.

VOTE: Mofonugen

[bji]

unvote

That was pretty thoughtful and pretty town. Not exactly sure why you pick one of the lurkers over BBT to vote on, maybe you could expound on that?

Good question. In real time during Day 1 I found myself agreeing with BBT alot, both in his approach and in his conclusions. So I feel like all I have in terms of suspicion against him right now is the fact that he participated so heavily during Day 1, and looks to me like a strong town player, and yet wasn't killed. I don't think that in and of itself is a strong argument, because it could equally apply to several other people (including me, if I'm immodest enough to call myself a "strong town player"). But it's something. It just pales in comparison to how strongly I feel about the likelihood of one of the lurkers being scum.

I'm sure I'm not helping my case by stating it before I've gone back and re-read all of Day 1 and formed more solid opinions. I'll be doing that shortly.

[bji]

Also, I want to take offense at being called a lurker. I know I'm not spectacularly active in general on D1, but you guys put up 400 or so posts AND a self-hammering lynch over the weekend, when I am usually not here. That right there is preposterous. No normal human can be expected to have kept up with that.

Sorry, if the shoe fits ...

Re-reading your ISO, you made 11 posts during Day 1. Your post 2 admits that your post 1 was an RVS vote. Your last two posts had no content. So you had 9 posts of any content during Day 1. You made exactly

ONE

vote during Day 1, and it was your self-admitted RVS vote. The remainder of your posts predomintantly start with "I ...", i.e., you only take the time to post when you feel like there is something for you to address that is specifically about yourself.

You are a lurker. Own up to it.

[bji]

1) You think I am scum because I was active D1

2) Not only do you think I am scum, you agree with a point I have made against somebody else

3) Not only do you think I am scum, you go ahead and vote the exact same person I am voting.

What?

If my post 788 doesn't address these questions, let me know and I'll expand. Short answer: I admit, my case is weak. But I have to consider it. I just do not want to be blindsided by the towniest town who was really scum.

[bji]

No, it doesn't.

Can you tell me what separates myself from RC and Scripten? Like, neither of these were scum read much on D1 either so I would like to know where the differentiation comes in.

Well like I said, I haven't re-read Day 1 completely and I'm going off of memory at this point, and I may be mis-remembering some things.

If I recall, Scripten was in the hot seat from you, and from pisskop, and from evilpacman18. Possibly others. That puts him much more in the category of someone who, if scum, would want to shake up the game dynamic lest he continue to be put into the hot seat.

You were only ever scum read by RC if I recall correctly, and I consider most of RC's votes to be OMGUS. I just don't recall you ever really being in the hot seat. Once again, I may be misremembering.

RC I guess I just don't take very seriously. I will take a closer look when I re-read Day 1 but my memory of RC is mostly just alot of bluster and insulting and not very substantial arguments in which she mostly just seemed to care about ensuring that her superior intellect wasn't challenged. But I will take a closer look on re-read and maybe I will take her more seriously after looking more closely.

Also, if you think I am scum, why are you not only agreeing with what I am saying, but also voting the same person I am voting?

Because I separate your arguments from your alignment. You could be bussing.

Also I am just paranoid. I don't want to lose to you, because I respect your skills. There are players I would mind losing to alot less (lurkers, mostly) because I feel like there is little dishonor in losing to someone who is hardly playing the game. If I lose to a lurker, I feel like all that really happened is that we were playing a game of random crapshoot, and I lost due to bad luck. If I lose to a skilled player, I feel like I really lost.

[bji]

pisskop seems to have gotten reckless with his play. If he's the doc and he actually outed himself, he likely dies tonight anyway. At this point, I think the method that gets us the most information is a pisskop lynch.

If he's actually doc, then we can gather leads based on reactions and participation in the lynch. If he's actually scum, that's probably as good a win as we'll get D1.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pisskop

This seems to imply Mofo believes the claim but wants to lynch him anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. Mofo's explanation does make sense, and frankly, Pisskop's lynch was entirely his own fault and due to his terrible play.

Mofo's plan to lynch pisskop to see "leads based on reactions and participation" is severely undercut by announcing that as the plan. Which makes it look like an insincere plan.

[bji]

Why would a SK kill Slandaar?

I explained why Slandaar dying in the night would be a better option for Unlynchable than having him alive in 797. The logic applies whether he[Unlynchable] is scum or a SK, but doesn't really work if a town vig shot Slandaar. (By the way, do town vigs die if they shoot town in this version of the game?)

Why do you think that Unlynchable would be able to convince his scum buddies to make a NK that had no particular value other than benefitting Unlynchable? Do you really think that if Unlynchable is scum, his agenda is going to drive the NK?

[bji]

I'm a officer of the law and one of you is under arrest.

(cop guilty)

Take a couple of guesses who's guilty

Why would you claim that now? Your doctor is dead.

Also, why should we guess instead of you just telling us? If you're scum fake claiming as cop, then you get to decide whether or not to reveal based on the guesses. Just tell us who is scum.

[bji]

Although, I do have a guess in mind, and it's due to recent activity.

[bji]

Another problem with this guessing idea is that unless you refuse to reveal until every single player makes their guesses, then scum could easily just not participate. If you really want guesses, then I suggest you don't reveal until everyone has guessed.

[bji]

Also, if you're really town then I would think you'd only do this if you thought that we were unlikely to zero in on this person on our own. So it would have to be someone who has been under little or no suspicion today or late yesterday and/or who you don't think we're likely to attempt a lynch on otherwise.

[bji]

Bji your looking a bit sweaty there and I don't see the point in holding it in as I could be killed any night.

Another problem with this guessing idea is that unless you refuse to reveal until every single player makes their guesses, then scum could easily just not participate. If you really want guesses, then I suggest you don't reveal until everyone has guessed.

Then it is easy to see who is hesitant problem solved. Besides I wasn't going to reveal till everyone guessed captain obvious

Well I've never been in this situation before (never seen a cop claim, this is only my fourth game), so I am not familiar with how this plays out. It certainly wasn't "obvious" to me that you wouldn't reveal until everyone guessed.

If other people think this guessing thing is a good idea, I'll go along with it.

[bji]

All:

From my experience, claiming immediately with a cop guilty is good play. I held off on claiming a guilty one game (my first) and lost it for the town. Granted, I got my guilty right before LyLo, but still...

Interestingly, this was nearly the exact same experience the only time I was cop. I didn't claim all the way into LYLO and the night before LYLO I had investigated a scum. My plan in LYLO was to try to get the scum lynched without having to claim, and only claim if that wasn't going to happen. Then one of my idiot town teammates got himself mod killed and it was suddenly game over. So I can see how it's not a bad idea to claim as cop when you have nabbed scum, but I think if it were me I would have let the day go as far as possible to see if I could have gotten the lynch to happen without having to claim. Better to live on as an unclaimed cop and still get the guilty party lynched. So I'm still a bit suspicious of Garmr's claim.

That being said, if others think making a guess is a good idea, OK. I will guess Wanderer-nl, based on three factors:

1. Post 765 from Garmr: "Wanderer,scriptian, massive all seem pretty scummy to me" is his last read list before the flip, so he probably investigated one of those.
2. There was some debate at the flip about whether or not Wanderer's L-2 vote was scummy, this made interest in her one of the last things happening before the flip, and maybe that influenced Garmr's choice
3. In post 808, Wanderer could be construed as possibly starting a case against Garmr. If Garmr knew that Wanderer was scum, he might want to claim cop quickly before starting any arguments with Wanderer so that his claim wouldn't look just like an attempt to discredit the person he was arguing with.

[bji]

I don't think Wanderer-nl is a slam dunk here. There are several ways in which Garmr's claim is weird:

1. Why claim immediately on Day 2? Why not wait it out and see if you can get Wanderer-nl lynched normally and stay alive to investigate someone else? This is what I would have done.

2. Why say that you "obviously" won't reveal until everyone has given their guesses, then reveal before that anyway?

3. Why get so upset just because BBT and a few others have questioned your veracity? Didn't you expect that when you made the claim? You should have. And then using being upset like that as an excuse to reveal your target, feels like realizing that you are not as likely to get info out of the guesses as you'd hoped and are more likely to see people waver on believing the claim, so fall back to revealing the target immediately in hopes of getting the day to end before anyone realizes the claim is fake.

4. With a 3/11 chance of targeting correctly, the odds were only slightly better than 25% of targeting a scum. Is Garmr really that lucky?

On the flip side, we have these points in favor of Garmr's claim:

1. If you're going to fake claim and target anyone, why pick Wanderer? She was looking kind of guilty to alot of people after Day 1 and I suspect that scum had a decent chance of maneuvering for a lynch of her without having to fake claim.

2. Why risk a scum slot just to get a single townie lynched? Scum's ahead at this point, with 3 town deaths and no scum deaths thus far. Is a gambit that will sacrifice a scum for a townie worth it? I wouldn't think so.

3. Why would the scum team have Garmr be the one to make the fake cop claim? Garmr was not really on anyone's scum radar, seems it would have been better to select a more scum-read person to fake claim on the assumption that if people were going to believe the fake claim, it would be better to sacrifice someone more likely to be lynched anyway than Garmr.

[bji]

Oh yeah, add another point in favor of Garmr's claim:

4. Why NK Slandaar and then go after Wanderer with the fake claim? Seems it would have made much more sense to keep Slandaar alive and see if he could help drive a mislynch on Wanderer, than kill him and then fake claim target Wanderer anyway.

Is it possible that scum get two kills per night? If that's the case then I guess it would be a good strategy to trade a scum slot for 5 townies (three the first night, because scum Garmr would live, town Wanderer would die, and scum would kill two more townies, then two the second night, as scum Garmr would be lynched and scum then get to choose two more townie deaths). However, giving scum two kills per night would really unbalance the game in favor of scum I think and so I really doubt the game was set up that way.

[bji]

May I point out that Garmr is either going to be NK'd tonight, or is going to be lynched tomorrow. Do we lose much by lynching him today? If he's really the cop, he's almost certainly going to die tonight anyway (there is no longer a doctor to protect him, although I suppose there still could be a jailkeeper? But having a doctor + JK + cop on the town team seems overpowered, no?).

We could lynch Wanderer, and then have to lynch Garmr if he fake claimed. But if Garmr real claimed, then we'll get no real info from the NK since it we would know that scum have to kill Garmr.

Or we could lynch Garmr, and then have to lynch Wanderer if Garmr's claim was real. But if Garmr fake claimed, then we'll get a bit more info from the NK since it will be someone other than Wanderer.

Gimme a minute, I'll draw up a matrix ...

[bji]

Outcome for Today and Tomorrow:

	Lynch Wanderer	Lynch Garmr
Garmr Is Cop	Today: Lose 1 town (Garmr), Kill 1 scum (Wanderer)	Today: Lose 2 town (Garmr + NK)
	Tomorrow: ???	Tomorrow: Kill 1 scum (Garmr), Lose 1 town (NK)
Garmr Is Not Cop	Today: Lose 2 town (Wanderer + NK)	Today: Lose 1 town (NK), Kill 1 scum (Garmr)
	Tomorrow: Kill 1 scum (Garmr), Lose 1 town (NK)	Tomorrow: ???

As you can see, the outcomes are identical over two days if:

- Garmr is Cop + Lynch Wanderer vs. Garmr is Not Cop + Lynch Garmr
- Garmr is Cop + Lynch Garmr vs. Garmr is Not Cop + Lynch Wanderer

Not factored into the table:

- What if there is a JK in town? Then this adds some imbalance to the table, assuming that the JK would target Garmr, since if Garmr really were the cop, this would keep him alive despite a NK attempt against him; but if Garmr were scum, this wouldn't save him from being lynched.

I think it

is

more likely that Garmr is cop than fake claiming given the way the game has played out thus far, and given that voting Garmr has as many negative outcomes as positive outcomes according to the table, I have to conclude that a lynch of Wanderer is town's best bet. So I will also declare intent to hammer Wanderer.

Too bad, because I like Wanderer as a player, sucks to lose good/fun players when lamers like Unlynchable get to sail through, but oh well.

[bji]

Is there anything worth discussing further today? I don't think so. I feel like continued discussion is only going to give scum more info than town at this point. Unless there is strong objection, I'll be hammering Wanderer within an hour.

[bji]

Note that RC completely disappeared today. Not sure what that means, but note it.

[bji]

Actually I'd lynch Unlynchable too, just on policy. I'd lynch him right off of this site permanently if I could.

[bji]

And lynching Garmr and then being forced to lynch Wanderer tomorrow if he's town? Puts us in LYLO with Unlynchable either way, and who wants that?

Good point, I didn't think that far ahead ...

[bji]

867 with regards to Garmr having to plan his gambit really early is convincing.

Wanderer must be scum. I see no benefit to prolonging this.

VOTE: Wanderer-nl

That's lynch.

[bji]

808
Changes:
massive = scum
Garmr = scum (or there is a framer, haven't seen any response to that)

Well I personally don't even know what a framer is or does. I'll look it up.

OK looked it up. mafiascum wiki says that framer is not "normal", so it should not be in this game.

I don't get the massive = scum read. If garmr already had us tricked, why would massive put his neck out like that? Your lynch was almost certainly going to happen, I had already said I'd hammer you, and surely another voter would come along to make it L-1 or hammer or whatever. I just don't see massive's motivation in risking being scum read just to add a vote to a mislynch that was probably going to happen anyway.

And lynching Garmr and then being forced to lynch Wanderer tomorrow if he's town? Puts us in LYLO with Unlynchable either way, and who wants that?

Not town,

cop

specifically.

True, but I don't think this is a slip. It's kind of easy to have the mental model of "he's either scum or town cop" in your head, and to use the word "town" when you mean "town cop" instead of "cop".

I don't mind being lynched, I do mind ending the day so soon.

I'm actually going out now so won't be here for a while. I should be back around my midnight though, if anyone is interested in hearing from me more.

Seriously.

Well with the mod-speed in this game, I suspect we'll be able to talk for a while more. I'm going to go on the assumption that you really are town, unless you're just trying to milk out some more info for your team, and if you are, good on you; this game needs more people willing to put the time in on playing even when they're dead in twilight. Much better than the lurkers and people who can't be bothered to even participate.

Also, nobody responded to this:

My plans got pushed back by a couple hours so I can be here, but that doesn't seem to matter much anyway..
Why are you all so willing to end today so early?
I don't mind being lynched for a flip, it's just that I know 100% sure I'm VT so Garmr is 100% lying about investigating me as scum, unless there is some sort of framer (I believe cop is always sane in normal games, right?) I guess with a doc and a cop that makes sense, but do framers appear in normal games? Can scum somehow be sure of the PR's after a doc-flip (like if there's no roleblocker or something on team scum they could be certain there's also no cop because that would make town too overpowered, so they can safely claim cop)?

I wanted to end the day early because I genuinely couldn't think of how it would benefit town to continue to talk when we already had our lynch choice pretty much made. If you really are town, then I wish I'd left it a little while longer as I contemplated whether or not we should lynch Garmr. The problem is that I just couldn't see any way in which that was the safer bet; and massive's point about how much effort it would have taken Garmr to set up that fake claim was convincing. I kind of thought in the back of my head "well maybe he didn't make it up, maybe he just saw an opportunity to use something that happened on its own", but I decided to ignore that possibility because the chance seemed more remote.

Also like I mentioned, I don't really know much about framers but the wiki says we shouldn't expect one in this game because they're not "normal".

I am a bit worried when I think about why Garmr would have made that gambit. Trading a scum for a townie doesn't seem all that worth it, unless like I said scum get 2x kills per night and then this is more of a 5-for-1. But if this game was set up for 2x scum kills per night, I'm going to throw my hands up and say the whole thing was doomed from the outset. I've completed 3 games and never seen town win, I don't know why a game would need a setup slanted in scum favor.

[bji]

Also there's the fact that this mislynch isn't exactly the worst thing for town. We might have mislynched anyway, and at least this way we get a guaranteed scum to lynch the next day.

[bji]

BJI, why are you so quick to assume that wanderer is being legit?

Given the effort that people put into this game, I think it would be unusual for Wanderer to continue to work for her team in twilight. Not impossible, but unusual. I'm getting rather disgusted with the lack of participation, whatever the reason. Exams? I don't give a shit. I have two children to care for and also work full time. I don't want to hear it. It's fine if you don't have time for a game like mafia, but if you don't, DON'T JOIN THE FUCKING QUEUE.

[bji]

By the way, that's just my opinion, so try to hold the indignation to a minimum, please. I'd prefer if you used your energy to play the game.

[bji]

Yes, that was hypocritical of me. I apologize. I'm just really frustrated. This game already takes forever and I already feel like I put too much effort into it given what I get out of it.

[bji]

And nights take 2 days, and then I just have to wait around for the day to start up again, and then we also get like 12 hours of twilight after every lynch. It's frustrating.

[bji]

And then I get really annoyed and ask myself, why do I check this site 20 times per day when most other people don't care enough to even check once? I toy with the idea of quitting this game for good.

[bji]

Really when you think about it, the whole concept of "game whose premise is getting people to argue anonymously on the internet" just sounds like one of the worst ideas ever conceived, doesn't it?

[bji]

UNVOTE: Wanderer-nl
VOTE: Kelbris

[bji]

Yes, I was just making a joke. The hammer is done and cannot be unhammered. I want to apply some pressure to Kelbris to get a flip.

[bji]

It was bad. But apology accepted.

[bji]

Kelbris, can we get the mafia thread link for this game please?

[bji]

Very good town play one the last 2 days. Before that, maybe not so much. Except for PB hitting Massive, that was nice.

[bji]

@BBT: You had a tough row to hoe there at the end. I think you played well but the deck was stacked against you. Good game.

[bji]

Is it bad that I was extremely happy that bji was the night kill and it probably helped town out that he was at that point.

I think it would have helped more if you had been NK'd, but in the end, the game was won, mostly because PB hit massive and then made a good call against Unlynchable. Really, PB was the MVP of this game.

[bji]

Is it bad that I was extremely happy that bji was the night kill and it probably helped town out that he was at that point.

I think it would have helped more if you had been NK'd, but in the end, the game was won, mostly because PB hit massive and then made a good call against Unlynchable. Really, PB was the MVP of this game.

Nah I don't think it would of helped I think it would of put the game in a unwinnable state since scum wouldn't of killed me and that would force peacebringer to meaning massive wouldn't of been shot and you seemed to have a town read boner for massive at the end of day 2. Then I see bbt using you as a tool to lynch monofgun and winning.

Will agree that peacebringer was mvp he was easy to town read but then again if it was me killed and you alive I can easily see you going to lynch peace bringer judging from your talks in the dead thread. Only after information was revealed that town didn't have did you actually start making correct assumptions.

You're very pompous and I really hope I never play with you again.

[bji]

@bji

Also you are calling me a bad player while you have no experience (I checked) or even researched my play style. The way you attacked pisskop and me in the dead thread acting like you are pro or something.

I have some pretty consistent games now and have been winning a majority of them lately. I have also had plenty of skype mafia experience and experience before this site.

Now imagine a player who has very Little experience has much to learn and acting arrogant mouthing off to people who had years experience and doesn't actually understand the situation or some of the ideas put out there to the full extent. Now imagine Your one of them experienced players how would you feel about that.

Everyone thought your fake claim sucked, not just me. Are you going to vent at everyone?

[bji]

Was pointing out you were a cunt to piskop to but even through the fake cop was the wrong thing to do I was still town enough able to scum hunt effectively and even through they thought it sucked they weren't a whiny little brat about it and the good players moved on.

Pisskop deserved it. I reported him, I don't know if that's going to go anywhere.

Also I didn't see you being right about

anything

until the very last day, and BBT was kind of obvscum at that point. But whatever.

And, the degree to which you feel it is necessary to insult people using the filthiest terms possible really puts your insecurity about your play on display.

This game was so putrid to play due to the personalities involved.