Open 20 - Pie E7 (Game over) - before 453

[IH]

unvote

Hai Patrick and Ripley!

Rereading!

[IH]

before I reread, hai LFR also ^_^

[IH]

EBWOP you're new ava throws me off

[IH]

Also, Ripley and Teffc both have rabbit type avatars. Possible connection? You can add that to your notes Ripley, and congratulate me after the game.

Shhh, you'll give the game away! We just started!

Vote: Ripley for not voting

A scumtell older than the game itself

LIES

FoS

!

Unfortunately I have to confirm that in all the games I've completed with him Patrick has been pro-town. I'm not quite sure how he manages this. These games include the previous Pie C9, where we managed to have a Day 1 that lasted for 2 months and contained almost no useful content. The whole of the game really happened on Day 2. I believe Patrick was in another Pie C9 before that one, too, so if anyone has anything useful to say about the setup it's probably him.

I have been in games with Patrick as scum!

I have also been his scumbuddy!

I really hope that wasn't a badly premature cop claim.

That, or he may be the roleblocker we're looking for.

Major FoS

You fisher of Roles!

There's nothing on the mods posts that mention the Cops sanity. And I'm trying to get a bit of meaningful discussion going, suppose you could say I achieved it. Rather noobish I'll admit, guess you have to learn from mistakes though.

Open=normal=Sane

One thing in Jordan's favor in all this is that if he were scum he'd have been more likely to be aware that the game didn't start with night. I mean, wouldn't you remember that you hadn't tried to kill anybody yet? I keep wondering whether there's some flaw in this argument, since nobody else (including Jordan) has mentioned it. Hmmm - maybe you might forget, especially if you were in a few games that had started around the same time; it's very easy to confuse them in the first pages.

Of course some games have a cop head start, don't they? In other words night for cop, day for everyone else.

How does the roleblocker comment fit in with the "jumpy scum fearing a cop result" theory? Maybe I'm trying too hard here to find logical reasoning behind a panicky post. I really don't know.

It fits wishy washy scum, trying to unsubstantiate a player for no reason = )

Also it is almost a loaded question.

Either Simenon is the cop,or he is scum.

These attacks on Jordan are justified, but have have yet to convince anyone(I hope) that Jordan is a worthy day 1 lynch

On the other hand I'm finding Simenon's play extremely suspicious. You keep suggesting that you have reasons for your original vote against Jordan, and I don't buy that. And I definitely don't believe that you've actually somehow posted your reasons.

You're definitely looking alot worse than Jordan to me

Vote: Simenon

FOS

If I were scum, there'd only be 1 other mafia, but I've only had 2 votes and 1 FOS so far.

How does this even make sense.

It's a highly debatable tell- now that there are other, more valid reasons for voting jordan, it would lead to an unecessary slap-fight.

I WANNA SEE IT DANGIT

FoS:Simenon for being stubborn, and it's pointless to hide anything

I don't like post 107

If that isn't flawed logic, I don't know what is, why on Earth would I try outing myself and my buddy like that, I'm a newbie, but I'm not stupid. Vote: Patrick

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Nah. I <3 my Ripley.
:shrug:, I don't remember disagreeing with you much in the two or so games we played together.

I feel the distraction would lie in what I say. As I have said, my former reasoning is completely irrelevant, and could be used by ze opportunistic scum. Since there is no scummy aspect about my previous thinking, I don't feel obliged to disclose it.

What I see is an attempt to make a big ado about nothing. Let's not exaggerate the seriousness of this- I voted without an originally posted reason, because something turned me off, and jordan was wonderful (let's give him a hand) and provided me with another reason to vote him.

So, I ask for those who are voting me for this- what exactly could I accomplish as scum by refusing to disclose my reasoning and what exactly is scummy about me doing so?

TO stop this distracting conversation.

Also, I want to see what is so controversial it would start a slap fight, possible miles away from each other. (GLoves in the mail?)

SECRET SCUMTELLS SUCK = |

I hate post 122

Jordan does not know what appeal to emotion means. = )

Jordan's argument with simenon..... ugh, it hurts me to read his responses.....

HINT:Not simenon's

Paradoxombie continues to focus exclusively on Simenon's refusal to divulge his original scumtell on Jordan. I don't understand why this is such a huge issue. Simenon originally voted Jordan when all Jordan had done was random vote with a dice roll. He's probably prolonging the whole thing because it amuses him to be awkward.

I also have noticed this.

I don't see what significance his motive has, he says a piece of information is meaningless and not suspicious and yet refuses to tell us for what seems like no reason.

FOS: Patrick and Ripley

Neither of you haven't mentioned any flaws in my reasoning, so i don't understand what difference it makes.

Somthing doesn't make sense about Simenon and you just want to drop it? What possible reason could you have to want that? You think it's distracting? How about you convince Simenon to just come clean and explain himself? Wouldn't that be a more protown resolution than me just stopping, regardless of the significance of the issue?

While part of this seems to make sense, it really doesn't that much. Pretty much the only reason I want him to answer is to stop distracting from other things. This is like attacking someone for a random vote. Seriously, he has other reasons, and it wasn't like he was trying to hide them at first, but only after he has a better reason. It looks more like a null tell, as he's already said it;s irrelevant, which means he's not using it against him anymore.

Also, the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you WON'T LOOK AT ANYONE ELSE. While jordan scum scrambles, you unsubstantiate another player.

FoS

dude.

unvote (if voting), vote:Paradoxombie.

after ALL that.....

cool.

seriously. This was stupid.

FoS:Aimee

Slightly. She only seems to post whenever she gets mentioned.

I'm almost certain one of Sim or Patrick is scum, if I had to guess, I'd guess Sim. For their partner, I think another experienced player, one who has decided to not vote for me for precisly the reason stated above, in fact, I think that's another point against Sim, trying to communicate in thread maybe? I know I'm not a scum, so, I'm going to Vote: Sim.

Why? Why do you think they are scum?

Panicked early and for no real reason when Simenon said he had reason to believe he was scum. Obviously doesn't pay much attention, because then he asks about the sanity of cops. Unnecessary if the front post was read. But does that point to Mafia or Town? It points mainly to stupidity. His reasons for the cop thing amount entirely to WIFOM, and he also says rather bizarrely that Simenon could be a roleblocker, which doesn't really solve anything. His explanations seem to be "oopsie, I'm a newbie!", which don't really explain anything, really. Overall, looking very defensive at the moment. Some rash votes have also occurred, mainly his vote against Simenon on post 123.

So.... what do you think about him? Scummy or town?

Patrick: Whilst Jordan's immediate panic was suspicion, I feel that Patrick jumped on slightly too strong onto Jordan. Despite this, his points are clear and well made, and identifies flaws in Jordan's points (e.g. WIFOM). Typical Patrick, really. Patrick was also probably the strongest jumper onto Jordan.

Same thing? Do you think he's being scummy, or being Patrick? TO uncomittal.

Same thing with all of them actually. You never actually commit to ANYTHING much here.....

MAJOR fos:Aimee

I think this post contains too much flourish and empty summary and too little actual analysis.

QF effin T (Sweet, I found a way to do it)

Bleh, I've been Sanarth'd like three times.

Also Jordan, I know what you're response is going to be I think.

"Look, see I told you" in an omgus-ee style.

[IH]

ALSO, it should be noted that Para repeatedly accused Ripley of holding his vote, and is holding his vote after only voting for Simenon.

[IH]

I don't understand how you can ethically vote me for voting someone you FOS'd for the exact same reason. I didn't even think he was scummy! I just wanted to pressure him into telling me, which he did.

You admitted that you wanted to know, too. And agreed that Simenon made it abundantly clear that he wasn't hiding it for any good reason. How can you vote me for taking action to make it happen?

Well, there is an extent.

mmk, Simenon was SLIGHTLY scummy, just because he seemed to dodge the question, but, especially looking at what he's revealed, it probably wouldn't have mattered, because it really is irrelevant.

Not only that, you concetrated on Simenon and that throughout the whole game, and NOTHING ELSE. Not only that, when he gave it up, you didn't say anything but "cool" and pretty much unvoted.

The only thing you did, and pretty much the only reason that I wanted to know (Because I hadn't seen if he had revealed it) was to get you to shut up, and to quit distracting from the game.

Simenon only got an FoS, because, while his motives may have been to not distract from the game, it made it even worse when you were hanging onto him doggedly and doing nothing else.

I was in another game with Teffc where she was acting scummy, and then asked for replacement, so, I'm wondering whether she's not very good at handling scum roles.

Unless her replacement is dead and confirmed, this is still irrelevant, and is irrellevant anyway as you don't know WHY she asked for replacement, and it sounds just like a way to try and throw suspicion on me.

[IH]

No, you distracted from other more important things, like the jordan conversation, by solely focusing on LFR, so you HELPED Jordan and all other scummy things going on. IN other words you distracted from his wagon.

So YES you can still be both.

[IH]

Incase that STILL didn't do it for you, here is why distracting from things is a scumtell.

1.Defending players subversively by sucking conversation

2.Cutting the towns conversation short by forcing them to focus on this

3.Using the repetetive fallacy, in other words just repeating things over and over until the town begins to believe them.

Now, focusing on one thing is bad. Repeatedly bringing something up while continuing to comment on things in the game isn't. You ignored everything but Simenon. THAT is scummy.

[IH]

maybe 1 and 2 apply in a RL game, but seriously, people can do whatever they want on here. In the majority of the games Im in people post on several convos at once. Sure it gets confusing but it's not like were limited in time, people can always get their questions answered eventually.

People can do whatever they want, but they're going to be accused of some things. Para, I know what games are like. You were focusing in on something that was, in the long run, irrellevant (Since he already gave other reasons for suspicion and they no longer applied, as he stated) while there were other more available venues of conversation.

And seriously how can you so easily make the town the victim? I wanted one little piece of info and simenon had to make a big deal about it. I make a big deal about it in return, but I didn't "force" the town to take a side in it. I didn't "force" them to do anything. Nothing else was going on. If I was really so terrible, I'd like everyone who was here to point out wtf they were going to do that was so important that I "forced" them to forget about.

I'm not making the town the victim. I'm saying that

you

made a big deal about it, while ignoring what he said, and what it actually meant. There were other things going on, namely the points against Jordan and such. You forced the town to by focusing in on it, and by making it as big as you did, you drew attention onto something else and away from other more important things.

You read the topic, IH, we can follow any leads we want from then, but you haven't come up with any. If I hadn't posted confronting Simenon, you wouldn't have any leads at all as far as I can tell. You have nothing to bring up from before I "forced" the town to change focus. If you came in here and had some good leads maybe you'd have a better argument. Or maybe if as soon as I unvoted Simenon people had a plethora of leads that they had been "forced" to ignore. But nobody does. Give the rest of the town some responsibility, they're not ADD-afflicted 4 year olds.

This is a straight out lie. Jordan was a good one, so was Aimee and her uncomittalness . People already had leads.

My main concern is, did you really think Simenon was scum for it? That it was a matter of alignment? Obviously not, as you unvoted, and your only response was "cool".

I do understand, i was having a ridiculously bad off-day in what was already an off-game for me.

Honest guys, I usually am not this bad.

I'm just saying that you didn't, it was in regards to a comment in the middle of the game that I was rereading.

[IH]

Yeah right. If they're so great I don't see why you aren't pursuing them now at all. Pretend I'd never posted the simenon thing for a second and play from there. Do all those things I distracted people from doing! Prove that there's somthing we missed because of me! Prove that we had somewhere better to go from before I "derailed" the town's progress.

No, and unless you're scum, this is pointless. The conversations would have gone more indepth, we would have gotten more information out of those players and the conversation.

In my opinion there was potential. Besides there's always somthing to learn when the town's talking. You "proved" I was scum from that discussion. You can't argue with that. You can't say that irrelevant discussion is unhelpful or pointless AND that I'm scum. (It's deja vu)

That's right. I don't get why you're even arguing this. You're admitting it's a scummy thing to do. Of course I'm going to attack you. You're argument is irrelevant anyways.

On the offchance you are town though, this should be a lesson as to why you SHOULDN'T do it.

[IH]

Paradoxombie, that is pretty much the definition of WIFOM.

See, my argument and your argument is possible. Me posting my thoughts about your motives, which has already been done and would be pointless, and comparing them to yours, which has pretty much been this whole argument, is either going to make me continue my argument, or go round and round in circles, doubting things for no reason.

I find it fascinating you believe that I'm being biased, when I came into this game unbiased, and gave my unbiased opinion.

You also continue to keep switching. You seem to say that you were just trying to spark discussion, which I don't buy, and then you seem to say you were attacking Simenon.

I think Paradox is scum, as previously stated in later posts. I am also suspicious of Jordan, who I believe is trying to hide after the earlier incidents.

Would you please point out the said posts?

Why do you think Jordan is trying to hide, as I believe he has continued to post....

Xombie still comes off as rather town to me since the start of the game, and has still given me the town vibes, except for his fos. Maybe I just have a natural opposition to such a weak gesture, but fossing jordan here just seems off to me.

I understand your words, but not in this sequence.

I mean, how does he come off town to you? Why do you think he's town? (Just wondering, as he really didn't come off that way in my reread)

Para, who was post 221 directed at?
223-Yes. It shall

I suppose with a new player joining it was inevitable that this whole
Paradoxombie/Simenon thing would be dissected yet again, but honestly, I think way too much time and energy has been devoted to it.

Perhaps, but how it was beginning to let off left an extremely bad taste in my mouth.

[IH]

EBWOP I thought that smiley face was a devil smily face
=' |

[IH]

(Points at sig)

[IH]

Sorry guys, thought I posted in all my games, but just missed this one. Will try to catch up. A lot of stuff has happened, and mafia isn't the only thing I have to catch up on, and this also isn't the only game.

[IH]

1.Mod, why do Police have Batches? <.<;


I also apologize for not posting before the deadline guys >.< I checked it out like 5 minutes before i left to go wakeboarding for the fourth, and hadn't had sufficicent time to get rereading on this game.

My current plan for about three of my games is to do a complete reread, so I believe I'll start one where i left off from my last reread.

If anyone has any concerns they woud like me to address directly, please state so, and I'll try as soon as possible.

[IH]

Xombie still comes off as rather town to me since the start of the game, and has still given me the town vibes, except for his fos. Maybe I just have a natural opposition to such a weak gesture, but fossing jordan here just seems off to me.

....Just wondering why you got a town vibe from Para? Because I just didn't get it from him the entire day...

Hmm. Been lazy in this game past few days. I sense it will become much harder to reread it soon =P

By the way IH, the word you want is "noncommital" rather than "uncommital".

The worst of it is I can't really think of anything to say right now. I've read the debate between IH and Paradoxombie and it doesn't leave me wanting to add anything. I think Paradoxombie focussed on Simenon too long, and apparently didn't even want to think about Simenon's motives, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a big distraction necessarily to the rest of us. He didn't really add much to the Jordan debate I guess.

I'm uninspired by my own post. Maybe I'll be able to add something else tomorrow when it's not so late. I *think* I'm more suspicious of Jordan and Aimee than Paradoxombie.

I can sympathize with this post X_X

So, what do you think about Aimee now Patrick?

Looking back, I don't think Aimee responded to the questions in Ripley's post 184. I think there might be some worth in that.

Still kind of meh on the IH/Paradox debate, but I'll tentatively say Simenon is probably town for now, and hope he is as easy to read as he seems to be =P

Post 230 mod post

post 231, Aimee post, answers questions.

Coincedence much?

Though her next post, which was done with her own initiative and is stuff I mainly agree with, is slightly conflicting..... So..... a scum that is actively lurking, and then rereads on her own? Bleh... i just disproved my own point = |

This is what happens when the town doesn't kill people I tell them to kill.

<3

post 246, HE ADMITS IT!

Yeah guys looks like I didn't miss too much. Looks like everyone lurked... so I got my lurkl out of my system this week later <.<;

I think maybe Jordan should claim. If he's a protown powerole, the last thing we want is to have a claim at the last minute that leaves us wondering whether to switch or not.

This was interesting and out of the blue.... probably if I would have been posting I would have said something....

THought I saw a contradiction that wasn't there.
(post 255 and 246 I think)

Patrick, would you be up for lynching IH or Aimee if the votes could be got together in time? You said a while back you thought you were more suspicious of Aimee than of Paradoxombie.

Everybody else: can you please specify who you would be willing to lynch?

Curious..... just wondering why you seemed so certain that Para and Jordan were town? Eh, perhaps I'm stretching it but.... a moot lynch to keep the suspects alive? Just wondering why me and Aimee were your two other choices....

When you're in as many games as IH is in, you have to pick and choose when you leave for a week. I am in another game that IH is ignoring.

I am relatively sure that Simenon is protown at this point. Just from not hopping on the "OH EM GEE, LURK, LYNCH"

I also seemed to have missed Jordan's doc claim.....

Well obviously Jordan is off the cards for today. Lynching a claimed doctor would be stupid.

I think Paradoxombie would be the best alternative. I made a massive case against him on the last page, to which he basically had no defence to. He is my preferred choice.

Strange as well.

I'd like to get confirmations from everyone that they're not going to counterclaim before figuring out what I want to do next. I'm not convinced Paradoxombie is the obvious move, if Jordan is innocent. If this is the case, it's really hard to believe two scum completely passed by the chance to make a move on an innocent being attacked by two experienced players. Which means at least one of Patrick and Simenon would be scum.

I wonder if Simenon's rapid switch to vote Paradoxombie before Patrick, IH, Paradoxombie or I had even checked in, means he didn't need to wait for counterclaims because he already knew Jordan was innocent?

I have this feeling Paradoxombie is going to be speedlynched before discussion goes much further. Oh well. We'll see.

While we were pressed for time..... there were too many dangers here, and to many unknowns.

1.The main target for the lynch would have to be at minus 1.
2.There was precious little time for the lynch
3.I continue to wonder why Ripley was so keen on keeping paradoxombie alive, that was twice he tried to switch the vote....
4.you had around 26 hours to get a lynch in. A speed lynch was needed there......

I also find it strange that Ripley thought it more important to try and cast suspicion on Simenon, who was voting for the other alternative from the unclaimed doc, and did not instead look at Patrick who had pressed for a power role claim.....

Slight FoS:Ripley

It was six minutes before deadline when I voted. I didn't like the situation one bit. I'd pretty much ruled Paradoxombie out from being scum with anyone but you (Patrick).

So not only was he the most innocent-looking person, but also I would learn very little if he was town

. But with nobody else around at deadline (and I suspect in some cases this was quite deliberate) and only 1 post in the previous 4 hours, I felt I had no real choice.

You had another option...... nolynching. The tone in your earlier posts seemed as if you had already semi confirmed him.

So.... lynch for lynches sake? It didn't seem to be for information (bolded part)

Please explain.

I had no back up plan after jordan.

find that suspicious in itself.

May I ask why you find that suspicious?

Yesterday he focused from start to finish on a player who turned out to be the doc, to such an extent that when this player claimed the day before deadline, Simenon had "no backup plan" and simply transferred his vote to a player he had apparently thought innocent, citing the approaching deadline as his reason, and then disappearing. Oh, and his pointless refusal to reveal an early scum tell he believed (wrongly) to have found caused a massive distraction that created a situation where it was very easy for people to vote the (innocent) Paradoxombie. I start to wonder if it actually suited Simenon rather well to keep stringing Para along, fixated on the issue to the point where he was attracting serious negative attention for it.

I must ask.........

1.The person eventually turning out to be the doc should be irrelevant, unless the scum suddenly have knowledge of who is what power role?

2......Dissapearing for the deadline? I dissapeared for the deadline I believe.....

3.Didn't you kind of halfheartedly defend the unrevealed scumtell? Kind of wondering what you mean by making it easy to vote for Para.....

Simenon seems to be answering these just like I did...... = |

I'm here people. Today leaves us in an awkward situation.

I am suspicious of Simenon's third vote yesterday - I see that as quite opportunistic. His posts today also have a definite weird vibe.

This seems very automatic.

FoS:Aimee

I am unsure of the Patrick/Simenon argument......

Where do I recommend you look? I really don't know who the scum are; nobody claims to except you, apparently. I had already said this. Seriously, you're getting into this outraged state because I failed to recommend where you look?

......So you accuse him of not having a plan.....

but you don't know where to look for scum....

in other words you also have no suspicions?

Yes, that's right. I was able to. I just haven't said it because like I said I'd prefer him to respond to an accusation levelled at him.

So did he take it all, or have you more to identify, out of curiosity.

Oh look a lylo vote.....

. It was created and supported by two of the most experienced players in the game at that time.
2. The basis of it was "catching a player in a slip-up" which is in my opinion a more convincing excuse to join the bandwagon than the Paradoxombie wagon, which was based on his fixating on Simenon over a long period of time.
3. The Jordan bandwagon came first, so joining it would not have meant abandoning an existing one. For you or Simenon, especially, to have changed to the Paradoxombie wagon prior to the roleclaim would have been difficult because it would require a certain amount of backtracking and justification.
4. The sheer amount of time that passed since you and Simenon initially picked up on the Jordan "slip" and voted him, without a single other player looking to build on it or move the case forward. Yes, people did say in passing, that Jordan looked a bit suspicious, but seemed more interested in putting the actual work into building a case against someone else altogether, and I think it's surprising that such a promising beginning as that (two experienced protown players wrongly thinking that they'd caught a third protown player in a basic error) would have been consistently passed over for so long by both real scum.

1.Clearly.... you do know that LFR/Simenon is very experienced in Mafia? I am unsure as to how many games he has, but he has been playing for quite a while I believe (Wifom/MTGS)
2.This may have some validity, but it looks as if it is mostly based on opinions.
3.So do you believe he predictied a doc claim?
4.Well, I would credit this in part to the MASSIVE lurk fest on day 1. It was like you guys posted, then lurked as I replaced in and posted, and then when I left you posted while I lurked. Pretty much they were the only things in passing to discuss at the moment. Para and Jordan, and that was about it.

Patrick..... I didn't get a feel at all about the Simenon/IH pairing you were talking about.

You gave what looked to be pro's and Con's, and then kind of let it hang..... How likely do you ACTUALLY believe it is, instead of just stating these things?

Aimee does that thing again where its "OH EM GEE NO AMY!"

"Wait here I am"

Posts 344 and 345

And finally the lurking IH. I find it annoying that he lurks at convenient times, as well as the fact I didn't see him really comment about the four remaining players at this point - his whole idea yesterday seemed to be the feud against Paradox, with some anti-Jordan comments thrown in for good measure. I could see IH as scum at this point.

Lawl Oh Lawl.

CTD's prod caught me just before I was going to use my adventures on KoL. Alas they will have to wait til I get off work tomorrow.

Put I have a post and should become more active now that I am caught up, hooray!

Now I only have Nightless, Newbie 370, Boardgames, Pod Mafia, mafia 58....... urgh.


ANYWAYS, summaries summaries.

Aimee-I dislike how she seems to be watching and posting. Maybe it's just breaks in the posting, and she comes in and looks, but she just seems to wait til the kind of critical mass type thing, and then posts a summary.

Patrick-Very unsure. I don't find him scummy, yet I don't find him town. He hasn't brought up anything unreasonable, but just some of his points I find sitting the fence.... well more subversivly. Like he looks like he is taking a stance on something, but actually offers up to slightly differing opinions and leaves it open.

Simenon-Reading through the end of yesterday, he looked town. The beginning of today, and his slight over reaction set off slight alarm bells, but the similarity in thinking, and some of Ripley's points make me think he is protown. I doubt he's scum at this point.

Ripley-While Ripley does usually make some pretty good points.... this game they seem to be diluted. Perhaps it's just the lack of actual game content, but I REALLY don't like some of the factors he's been putting in his arguments, not to mention things he leaves out, such as

Accusing Simenon of accepting a power role, but ignoring how Patrick seemed to press the claim (as if urging someone to come out). In the context of yesterday, that is very important.

Tying to strengthen his arguments with things like adding in "He was attacking what we know is a doc!" and things such as that.

Probably..... if I had to make an order from scum at top and town at bottom it would go

Ripley
Aimee
Patrick
Simenon

[IH]

I don't understand this. I am half asleep though, but I don't get what you're asking.

Sorry that was kind of incoherent. I meant, did you have anything else to say about Simenon's post (that you thought was crap) or did Ripley have it all?

Also, you left out the second part of my comment.

Patrick..... I didn't get a feel at all about the Simenon/IH pairing you were talking about.

You gave what looked to be pro's and Con's, and then kind of let it hang..... How likely do you ACTUALLY believe it is, instead of just stating these things?

Also ripped my toenail off at work like three weeks ago.

X_X not surgically. Hurts much, hope your toe doesn't hurt to much/you have painkillers.

[IH]

Why do you think it was suspicious of Patrick to ask Jordan for a claim? Isn't it usual to ask for a claim from someone who looks like being lynched? And actually, if Jordan had responded sooner (two days passed between Patrick's original request and Jordan's claim) we might be in a better position now. We were rushed at the end of the day, which is just what he said he was trying to avoid in asking for the claim at that stage (3 days before deadline).

True, but just looking through and if I had ben posting i would have thought it was strange. Just how it was phrased looked kind of like a scumbuddy kind of coaching someone that they needed to claim.

Obviously this was not the case, but it is still relevant in a later point.

I don't understand your point. Patrick reminds Aimee of some questions she overlooked, Aimee replies and answers them. What's the coincidence you refer to?

That Aimee was Lurking
Someone mentioned her name
Aimee posted

can't see anything in this that could be interpreted as meaning I'm certain that Para and Jordan were town. What do you mean? I'm trying to find out what alternative lynches are available in the case of Jordan claiming a power role, as in fact happened. Patrick had earlier specified Paradoxombie as someone he'd switch to. The only other person I didn't include in my question was Simenon, and I can't now precisely remember why that was; probably because Patrick had never expressed any suspicion of him and they'd voted the same way all day. I don't understand what you mean by "moot lynch to keep the suspects alive".

Well if you had given that as your reasons at the time I'd be more inclined to believe you, but just that you were casting around for another lynch. It was obviously going to be a rushed lynch, but what did you mean to gain from another lynch. THose seemed to be the towns two largest suspects, so if you lynched someone else, then that would leave them there for tomorrow.

Prior to Jordan's claim I was, as already explained, trying to find out which lynches would be possible, not "trying to switch the vote". Following the claim I liked the Para lynch less and less the more I thought about it, I said so and I said why. He was indeed protown, so it turned out my reservations were valid.

I believe that in this setup a no lynch is the worst outcome on Day 1, and there were no other lynches available to me. The fact that I didn't much like the lynch doesn't change the fact that, in the lack of a claim from Paradoxombie, it was the right thing to do.

The tone of your posts just didn't feel like exploring possibilities, it felt more like you were trying to shift the vote the other way, which is why I mentioned it repeatedly.

I am willing to believe the second part.

This is a ludicrous misinterpretation of what I said. Let's trace this back to its origins. Simenon first decides I'm scum, then looks for evidence. He finds so little that I suggest that might be an indication that he's looking in the wrong place. He, and now you, keep repeating "so where should I look then!" as if the fact that I don't feel able to name the scum with confidence - and note, nor does anybody else feel able to do this - somehow invalidates my response. I'm suspicious of everyone, and looking everywhere. And it increases my suspicion level of you no end, IH, when you pick up and on parrot responses of this quality by Simenon, and repeat questions from him that I've already answered, while glibly dismissing all his behavior, including trying to use an obvious joke post against me and placing a quick vote in lylo, as a"slight over reaction".

You misunderstand. I just don't see your remark as a town reaction, as I see that question from plenty of people, "Where should i look!?" But the general town reaction, imo, is that they will first explain there suspicions, and say, "There are plenty of places to look."

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding it, but I am unsure

No idea what you mean by LFR or what the point is you're trying to make. My point was that Patrick and Simenon were two of the most experienced players in the game at that point; you seem to be arguing with me with evidence that supports what I was saying.

Oh i thought you meant yourself

Again, no idea what you're trying to say here. My argument you're replying to is that it would have been more difficult for Patrick and Simenon, if scum, to switch to the Para wagon because of their existing wagon, than for scum to join their Jordan wagon. Nothing to do with predicting a doc claim at all.

I know I had a point in there about the roleclaim.... but I can't remember it. I'll come back to this another time

When you said on Jun 23rd you'd be gone for a week, we pretty much stopped posting for that week.

I meant after that week.

Your wording here is extraordinarily skewed. I didnt "think it important to try and cast suspicion on Simenon". I simply was suspicious of Simenon. I thought it was strange that he immediately unvoted his prime suspect without waiting for counterclaims, especially when the claim was doc (much favored as a fake claim by scum). I still think so.

Incidentally, I think it's perfectly reasonable to reconsider my thoughts about Simenon's play regarding his supposed scum tell, in the light of his subsequent actions and the knowledge that both Jordan and Para were protown.

I have already commented on the Patrick bit, and again your wording "Patrick who had pressed for a power role claim" is just weird, twisting a routine roleclaim suggestion into something sinister. Have you been to spin doctor summer school? Oh, and here it is again:

in case you haven't noticed, when I believe something is supicious, I'm going to speak of it like the person had alterior motives. I'm not going to water it down into something else that is possible, I'm going to go with what I think what happened if that person was scum.

I usually am kind of eratic from game to game, but if you'd look at some of my other games, that would become kind of obvious that I do do this. I think anyways.

Sidenote-You should kick things harder. Losing toenails makes you hardcore.

[IH]

Focused? There wasn't that many things that happened yesterday, and I consider that something major that just went unadressed.

Second of all, I have just found Simenon to be on the same wavelength of me today, and yesterday I found his play pretty pro town. The main factor I am basing that Simenon is town is his play from Yesterday.

Not only that, but from a process of elimination, if I believe Simenon is town, then two of you three have to be scum, so I'm obviously going to try and zero in on you guys, and I have just found more to zero on on Ripley, than others (maybe because he seems to post alot more, but I'm unsure)

[IH]

Woo! Sweet it's Skruffs!

At least this time he's replaced the player I think is the most protown ^_^

Also, what's up with Guardian being Backup mod all the time <.<; This is like the third game he's done this for.

[IH]

I Pity da fool who try and makes me post mo!

mod edit: I can edit your posts now homie. Be afraid. Be very afraid. mwahahaha. ALL of you: post some game related content. Or face my wrath...

[IH]

sorry guys I took a little bit of a lazy break from Mafiascum, I haven't made a post in like a week. I'm going to try and get focused and post. Same for my other games.

[IH]

Alright, I know this looks like another empty promise, but my plan (emphasis on the word plan) is to RECATCH up with all of this stuff.

I would do it now, but company and such.

[IH]

How major can it have been, if nobody even thought it worthy of comment? Your argument seems to be that the wording Patrick used was strange and sounded like a scumbuddy coaching, and that even when this turns out not to have been true, you're suspicious of me for not commenting on it at the time. But nobody found it strange except you, either at the time or later when you've pointed it out. And you single me out repeatedly for this "ignoring Patrick pressing for a claim", as if this is a crime for me, but just fine for everyone else. The only difference I can see is that you believe that because I said I found Simenon's behavior following the claim a bit suspicious, I was somehow also obligated to find Patrick suspicious as well. Which doesn't really make sense. It's as if you've declared you're For Simenon, which means you have to be Against Ripley. You really seemed to be doing much the same as Simenon did, starting off from the assumption "Ripley is scum" and then scouring my posts for evidence to support it.

No it was more, you noticed something similar in nature, I'd assume you would have noticed this as well. I'm sorry you think I made a conclusion and then began looking for evidence.... but there were things that I thought got glazed over and NEEDED more attention. As you state, it was generally ignored, and I didn't like that. Not at all.

However, I have to say here that this game has in some ways reminded me of a newbie game I played with Simenon into which IH also replaced. The roles have been reversed to an extent, in as much as in the previous game it was IH who, immediately following his arrival, was making what I thought of as - let's say excitable, and not very coherent posts, with which I disagreed thoroughly. And Simenon was supporting him. Both turned out to be town. (I was town too.) So I do have to take into account that there's some history of these two genuinely agreeing with each other even when I disagree with every word of it.

Because Me and LFR are on a wavelength man. Waaaave Leeeength.

Even taking that into account, I still find IH's almost complete assumption of Simenon's innocence bizarre. I think Simenon's case against me was incredibly weak, and I tend to be more suspicious of someone who supports a weak case than of the person who made it in the first place. So IH is at least as suspicious to me as Simenon/Skruffs, and maybe more so.

As I stated, Simenon is sticking to his suspicions, as I stated, and not just jumping onto someone else. Of course this is invalid if I am scum, but the fact of the matter is I find it to be protown that he didn't just shift onto me, which he could have easily done.

Unopporunisticism=protown

in this manner anyways.

This is all still coming from Simenon's actions from yesterday btw.

The only thing I feel like I need to respond to in 342 is about the para/Jordan here. While it could be that he was trying to defend Jordan, I saw it as more trying to steer the conversation away from anything and everything.

I checked Day 1 posts, and IH made no reference to finding him so pro-town, something he has stated so vehemently today. If anything, you found him scummy - you FoSed him and called him "slightly suspicious" (although it was in the context of something much greater for Jordan).

Overall, I don't undertand why he is so pro-Simenon/Skruffs today.

End of day 1, already stated

I haven't disagreed with Skruffs so far.... but Ripley, why were you pushing Skruffs about "focusing on those two games exclusively"?

1.It would be logical to start metagaming as such (with the same setup as this)
2.After he explained it was a start, why did you continue to press it?

Patrick did notice this - questioned it - Ripley ignored it - and Patrick brought it to his attention again.but Ripley's response doesn't make ANY sense. Patrick seems to buy it though, and I wonder if this was some slight British distancing or something.

Skruffs wins this game

Skruffs, it's impossible for me to answer all of your post because you refer to things in vague terms without providing quotes or even a post number.

I wanna note this.

I'm just wondering what the point of this is. To admonish Skruffs? Just general information? Letting us know? Throwing off on Skruffs post?

With IH, it's the converse situation. He is treating Simenon/Skruffs practically as cleared today, claiming this is on the basis of his posts yesterday, though, as pointed out by Aimee, he didn't appear to think so at the time:

What's interesting is that it was a slight fos referring to not revealing his reasons, that you should know about, as i believe you commented on it. Then, when on a massive lurk fest, Simenon gave off what I believed to be a giant sign of a townie.

Ripley, I think it is possible IHscum would defend Simenon as town. I do think it may get too wifom to carry much weight, especially because as you've pointed out he might not have any particularly coherent or rational plan. Certainly he hasn't put alot into this game.

You try doing a reread with these long ass posts. Seriously.

The benefit you haven't mentioned here is the fact that he could buddy up to a townie (Simenon in this scenario) and gain their trust. In this scenario, that would make it harder to lynch IH if scum, and if that did happen, he may well have managed to create a connection to Simenon that would cause a mislynch the following day. I also think it's a bit simplistic to assume that merely going with the flow at that point would net IH the win.

I for one am naturally wary when everyone seems to agree so readily on one target, especially in lylo

. With no poweroles left, all we have is discussion, so any decent town is going to grill everyone hard and not just jump on the first target and lynch them.

Thought that was important. ++

I'm getting slightly concerned about the way Skruffs and IH seem to be acting around each other. With IH, it's been a chorus of "Simenon/Skruffs is THE most pro-town person in the game" rather obviously. With Skruffs it has been more subtle - as far as I can see, the only reference he made to IH in his post 403 is saying he was "happy" with a post where IH noticed Simenon, and says that he would rather IH would be lynched than himself.

What's funny was he did the same thing with aimee XD

I believe.... I would be most uncomfortable with a Patrick lynch. I find him increasingly more protown. I would say that the scum group at this point and time, as Skruffs has stated at least once, is Ripley/Aimee.

There are no distinct links, just by a process of elimination type standpoint. I think I'd also feel happier with an Aimee lynch....

Nice to see you again IH. When will you post?

Now. I apologize once again everyone. As I stated before, coming back from super extended absences is hard X_X I'm dying off from nightkills and games ending alot, so my pressure to post in games are getting lessened and I'm feeling free-er to post now.

[IH]

Of course I noticed Patrick asking for a roleclaim, but, like everyone except you apparently, I didn't think there was anything noteworthy about it. I still fail to see what was "similar in nature" between Patrick's requesting a roleclaim from a player facing a deadline lynch, and Simenon's moving his vote from his prime suspect to a player he'd said he thought was town, without waiting for counterclaims. If I've misunderstood, and these are not the things you believe were similar in nature, please explain. Unless you can do this, and explain, more convincingly than you have managed so far, why Patrick's actions should have stood out as suspicious, I don't think it's reasonable for you to keep singling me out for criticism for not commenting on an issue that nobody but yourself has found worthy of comment at any stage.

Ok Ripley, why do i seem to be singling you out? Because I find you an observant player. Usually you don't miss a thing.

What I also found strange, was that the request was seemingly ignored. The request went ignored. The lack of answering the request went ignored. just the general.... not... acknowledging it... at all... by any player.

So is this the reason that you're treating Simenon as cleared today? If so, I'd like more details about this. Please specify, with quotes or post numbers or both, where it was that you thought Simenon passed over an opportunity to shift his vote to you, and also explain why this is so significant to you. Simenon's only votes were for Jordan and Paradoxombie (both town) - why is it such a big deal to you, if you're town, that he chose to vote those particular protown players and not you? Also: Nobody still alive voted you. In fact, if you exclude your predecessor's vote on Patrick, nobody still alive ever voted anybody other than Jordan/Paradoxombie, either. So why are you singling Simenon out at all, let alone to the extent of clearing him?

When you're in as many games as IH is in, you have to pick and choose when you leave for a week. I am in another game that IH is ignoring.

Simenon was a winner here. He didn't join in on everyone saying that I was lurking while posting elsewhere.

<3

Also I don't believe I see the motive in a scum mentioning this. perhaps there is an extremely wifom one, which I just don't think is plausible. Possible, but not plausible. Especially by Simenon.

This doesn't begin to explain what I asked about, which is: why, after all the negative things you had to say about Jordan, including (to Para) "While jordan scum scrambles, you unsubstantiate another player." you proceeded to completely ignore your own case against "Jordan scum" and go exclusively after Paradoxombie.

probably got carried away, and by the time someone pointed out, I was AFK.

LOL - well, there's a surprise. Did you agree with what he said to Patrick (Post 403, paragraph 3) about Paradoxombie claiming being useless?

Patrick: You are the most experienced player in this game, and you know precisely how this game works, but you complained about PAradoxombie not claiming. You earlier pushed for Jordan to claim. Claiming is, as I thought you knew, useless to power roles in this game because mafia have the ability to stop both roles from being able to be used. Paradoxombie would have been a 'partially cleared' cop day two with no result if he had claimed, and the doctor would still have died. Or vice versa.

yes and no. While it is important to claim, it is then only on the realms of guesswork we go along, because if they claim, and there is no counterclaim, we procede to lynch someone else, presumably and hopefully scum. Though, the power role claiming to save himself is pointless, since they will be killed that night.

So
Power role claiming to save himself for the night-Useless
Power role claiming to stop a mislynch-useful

This has already been done to death while you were lurking. See posts 382 and 385, where I explained my views in detail already.

I'm finding Skruff's approach a bit eccentric. I don't mind metagaming along the lines of "X has been more likely to do such-and-such in games where he's been scum", but Skruffs seems to be limiting his research to this particular setup (Pie C9), which is in my view far too narrow a field to be of any use whatever, considering that there are only 2 previous games using this setup in existence. Moreover, only two of us have even played in one (and only one of us has been scum in one). I doubt that anyone has a detectable style as scum or town within a particular setup, and even if they did it would take a much larger sample of games using that setup to form any meaningful theories about it.

So do you think that looking at them would be completely useless? That there is no use. I don't understand your point to be honest, because he never said he was just going to limit himself to those games, though you claim as such when he mentions them....

Until and unless Skruffs explains these comments of his, which he's been asked to do, the "game" is one to which he alone knows the rules. Do you understand what he meant? Or did this just strike you as a promising remark by Skruffs that quite probably meant something or other, so you just decided to throw a cheer in its direction, in line with your policy of blindly supporting everything said or done by Simenon/Skruffs, most especially if it attacks Ripley?

Oh I was mostly supporting the statement "British Distancing" Silly Ripley. When I say "he wins this game" it's like "He wins this thread" from something humorous being said.

If I don't explain any occasion where I fail to answer every word of a post it gets used against me. Skruffs' tendency to describe events with his interpretation of behavior, rather than description of the actual events, combined with his decision not to use quotes or post numbers, made it impossible for me to reply to all of his post. I therefore stated this at the start of my reply.

I just don't understand why it was necessary......

What's interesting is that it was a slight fos referring to not revealing his reasons, that you should know about, as i believe you commented on it. Then, when on a massive lurk fest, Simenon gave off what I believed to be a giant sign of a townie.

"IH IS SUSPICIOUS OF SIMENON!"
When my FoS on him was a

slight fos

against him. In my replacement reread. That you commented on. In which I thought it was only slightly suspicious.

Can you talk me through why Aimee replaced Ripley at the top of your list? Also, what makes me protown suddenly?

nothing specific, just some vibes you're throwing off, and just how some of your ideas come out. I'd say you were town.

[IH]

Response to 428

Ripley, clearly this is a Wifom point. Especially since you say "Either IH or Aimee?". Shifting a lynch from Para, and onto Aimee could have been bussing, or else you just thought it wasn't likely he would move onto Aimee.

It's a slight point against you two being a scum pairing, but I don't think so....

You are completely wrong to say that "everyone" said you were lurking while posting elsewhere. Of the 6 players alive at that time other than yourself, precisely one player (me) said this (in Post 254). And btw, it was true. Are you seriously telling us you've cleared Simenon on the basis of his making an excuse for you not posting in this game? Have you never, in all the games you've played here, seen a scum try to get on somebody's good side before? I really find that hard to believe. And if he is scum and you are town, look how well it's worked! One brief aside excusing your lurking, which cost him absolutely nothing, and he's cleared, to the extent that you're apparently willing to excuse or attempt to explain away absolutely anything else said or done by him or his successor. I find it really strange that in that situation you would not even be looking at that possibility.

perhaps I've blown it up in my mind, but me not posting was pretty clear, and I just do not see scum motives in that post. Perhaps I'm wrong and it's a null tell, but I would disagree I believe.

This is just rambling. There was a clear reason for him to have claimed: to try to avoid the mislynch. Moreover, the doc had already been outed, so Para, the cop, would not be killed that night and, if we managed to lynch the roleblocker instead, would also have an invcestigation result. Is there any part of that you disagree with? Or are you just trying to muddy the waters?

no, you told me to answer the question if Role Claiming was useless.
I've seen Skruffs misunderstand, and am pretty sure he did, since the phrase "It's useless cause he would have died!" In which instance Skruffs did not consider it stopping the mislynch, but only keeping the role alive.

In that case, then the above is not "rambling" but makes sense.

This is just impossibly vague. IH, this is a lylo situation; you have to do better than that. Please try and give at least one example of Patrick's posting that has led you to the belief that he's town.

Clearly that means it's a gut feeling, but I will try to give you an example of what I mean in my next post.

[IH]

Aimee, for your quesions about Simenon, reading ftw from Ripley's answers.

[IH]

phew Crazy Zindy. = )

[IH]

Funny thing, that last post right there by me was the 666th in this thread

[IH]

This is the first game I intentionally used scum tactics, btw. = )

Notice that I distracted from conversation in day 1, while attacking Para for it.

<3 Zindy