Mini 451 - Totally Awesome Mafia, Game Over

[Aimee]

OMGUS vote: N9V

*waves*

And Stewie, when did you arrive? I knew you left, does this mean you are back?

[Aimee]

I'm still here!

Anyway I don't really get the whole argument between Off the Makr and the pretty kitty (sorry Nekka-Lucinda, or whatever, I forgot your name! )

The kitty's argument seems to refer to the way "oh I have a few votes. I know I am a townie, meaning that Off the Mark, who is voting for me, is part of the mafia!" Crap logic, no?

And Off the Mark's logic is bizarrely er... crap. "I lied in my last game because I was mafia, but this game don't worry, I will always be honest." Um, again, crap logic, no? Couldn't everyone say that?

[Aimee]

Who still needs to vote now?

Pressurising people to vote is scummy. You understand that right. It is page 3, therefore people may just have taken off their random votes. I see no reason for this pressure, which can only be properly justified in a deadline situation.

FoS: Nekka-Lucifer

, although your avatar is already making me feel really bad!

[Aimee]

A Papaya, if Off the Mark sounds more suspicious than Nekka-Lucifer, why did you put a FoS on NL and not Off the Mark?

[Aimee]

Mod:

Your Vote Count is Magnificent

[Aimee]

Nekka, you have been vote-hoping quite a lot. Is there any major reason for moving your vote around so much?

[Aimee]

Unvote Vote Nekka

Stop vote hopping. It's distracting to the town, and in most cases, unhelpful.

FoS: N9V

, this makes me uneasy. I mentioned it a few posts above, and it seems you are merely copying the point I made, without adding your own ideas. That is also "unhelpful".

[Aimee]

Nekka, you use too much WIFOM. Stop, please.

[Aimee]

Aimee, care to explain your absence from this thread?

Meh, final today. Post coming later today, after it.

My other posts haven't been long or analytical. This game I will need to re-read, something I don't want to do before my exam. After, though, this is a must.

[Aimee]

I think personally that Nekka is acting scummy. Nonetheless (without sounding harsh, Nekka), I believe the wagon is being exploited by some. Nekka is an easy target. I totally understand the reasons of Stewie, Off the Mark, and A Papaya. However, N9V and CTD, care to explain why you are voting Nekka? They seem like the bandwagoners here.

[Aimee]

And CTD, I agree that you aren't technically bandwagoning on N-L because you were one of the first to vote for him, but as far as I can see, that vote was random. You have apparently decided that you just got lucky with your random vote and actually voted for someone you think is scum. All I want to know is why you chose not to remove your random vote (almost the same action as voting in my book)

Pretty much what I was wanting too. I like your wording, Nabakov.

[Aimee]

I will be on holiday from Monday through to Sunday. No access at all. Mod, you know I will be back. Replacement not needed.

[Aimee]

unvote

OTM, I would vote for N-L, put I am wary of putting him at -1, especially since I will be away and can't change my vote.

So I will leave my vote on no one for now. Although, N-L, I would be voting for you otherwise.

[Aimee]

Vote: A Papaya

FoS: bobbyplump

Why?

[Aimee]

Earlier in Day 1, I said:

I think personally that Nekka is acting scummy. Nonetheless (without sounding harsh, Nekka), I believe the wagon is being exploited by some. Nekka is an easy target. I totally understand the reasons of Stewie, Off the Mark, and A Papaya. However, N9V and CTD, care to explain why you are voting Nekka? They seem like the bandwagoners here.

I just read the posts of all those voting against Nekka. Off the Mark, yes, you do look a bit scummy for leading the mega crusade against him. However, you did give reasons for your votes. Stewie as well, gave adequate reasons for me.

That leaves A Papaya, CrashTestDummie, Hjallti and N9V. Hjallti, for now I am unsure of what to think. CrashTestDummie gave no reasoning whatsoever for his vote against Nekka. N9V and A Papaya also focused heavily on the vote hopping allegations, with A Papaya jumping between Hjallti and N-L. I feel they were all merely bandwagoning.

As a result:

FoS: ~N9V~, A Papaya and CrashTestDummie

and

IGMEOY: Hjallti

[Aimee]

Alls I know is that Aimee was out on vacation until the 10th. And then the mod makes a post that we won't start again until the 11th, giving those absent, "to send in night choices if they have any."

Maybe it's not fair to bring that in, but to me it makes Aimee look like an SK.

FOS: Aimee

Nonsense. It is clear that the mod was doing that because otherwise, if there were two kills and I was away in the night phase,

I would be a confirmed

as not the SK. By doing this, it doesn't actually have any indication of my alignment.

Also, those predicting the deaths, stop. Just because Lowell was killed by stab wounds, doesn't really indicate anything, except that two kills occurred. Instead of pure speculation, let's actually discuss things.

N9V, your hop onto the bandwagon seemed convenient at best, with the vague accusation of vote hopping given (something I had previously suggested only a few posts before). It seemed as though you were joining the bandwagon without adding anything new to it.

Off the Mark, post 271 is odd. You accuse me of cautious play, yet give no real example of this. You then say you have suspicion of me (presumably for caution) and A Papaya (no reason given). Why?

I am very interested in the reactions of those who I previously stated suspicions of. I shall wait until they have all posted before saying anything.[/i]

[Aimee]

Also, I'm not really suspicious of Bobbyplumb at the moment, because I see him as new, rather than scummy.

[Aimee]

Bobbyplumb, please point to any evidence that suggests I am a Seriak Killer.

There is none. Nothing points to me being the SK. The fact the mod gave me an extra day to hand in a night-choice shows that I potentially have a night-choice. That is exactly the same as any other player in the game.

Conversely, if he had left no time, then obviously I would be proven not to be the other killer. Therefore I would be an almost confirmed townie.

So basically, the mod's actions mean that there is still no idea about my alignment. Your idea that I am a SK has to problems:

1. Implies from only the mod that I have a night-choice, when it is equally likely I don't have one.
2. Implies any night-choice I may have is a killing one.
3. Implies that I am neutral in alignment and not town in alignment (what stops me being a vigilante?)

As you can see, Bobby, there is too much implication and not enough fact involved. Therefore your vote on me is totally unjustified.

Oh, and yes, we should definitely be going after the Mafia. The SK could theoretically kill a mafia member too.

[Aimee]

Because I had exams that week and was a bit stressed. The only things I was posting were small bits (I think I posted one or two paragraphs in one game with a deadline) but I felt this game deserved a re-read, something I didn't really have time for. I should have said I was pressed for time, though. That I should have done.

[Aimee]

Hmmm.... interesting developments here. I will have another post back soon.

[Aimee]

I read games that N9V was scum in. He plays like he does here - hiding under the radar, hoping he would be avoided (although he was). The very fact he plays like that here as well draws my suspicions.

[Aimee]

How about games where he was town?

Aimee, you were going to comment on the "developments" from the last page. Please let us know your thoughts.

Er... I haven't read a game he was town in yet (except my newbie game, which I don't think either of us want to share).

And yes, I did have interesting developments. All those I accused posted, but now A Papaya is replaced, we can't judge pickem on his actions. Nonetheless, hopefully by the end of the night I will have posted something (although I am not promising anything).

[Aimee]

Remember, SK's could also kill the mafia.

[Aimee]

Just want to say that I agree completely with CTD's analysis so far. In fact, I don't see him as a big suspect anymore - although some things are still unexplained.

My main question now - why did you vote for A Papaya and FoS Bobbyplumb (something that is still unexplained) but give no reasoning?

[Aimee]

*Suppose we are in a mafia+SK situation then there could be 3mafia+1SK or 2mafia+1SK+some strong townies.

This I am unsure of, but 3mafia and a SK is a bit unbalanced on the anti-town side. Depends on the mod, really.

*Suppose we have a Vig then I would think 4mafia + 1vig or 3maf+1vig+8vanilla.

4 Mafia is too many. 3 is more likely, although once again, it depends on the mod.

*Suppose we have double mafia (say black and red) it would be 2 black and 2 red.

I think the very idea of two mafia in a mini game is unlikely.

[Aimee]

N9V, why did you unvote Nabakov?

And I will have a more substantial comment later, but that is my opening question.

[Aimee]

N9V, you need to answer the question about why you chose to kill at all.

Again, this is a newb question. But how many bulletts does a Vig usually have?

That depends, but as N9V hasn't specified his 'Vig type' (e.g. one shot), we should assume he can kill one person each night.

[Aimee]

I agree with N-N. N9V should be lynched, although I won't put a vote on yet, as I just want to have a quick re-read before I do anything.

[Aimee]

I am not really sure what to do at the moment. Should I put N9V at -1?

[Aimee]

Off the Mark, I agree and understand. Small point, though. Where the hell did those numbers come from?

[Aimee]

I definitely need a re-read. I will try and post my thoughts by lunchtime tomorrow.

[Aimee]

Hm, I guess I don't get a chance to report my re-read, then. Oh well. I would have voted for him as well, because I too believe him to be the SK.

[Aimee]

I am waiting for bobbyplumb's reaction to this before placing a vote. I am almost certain that he is the cop, and got a guilty on bobbyplumb.

Also, I think that N9V's lynch should theoretically confirm the fact there are only two scum in the game - three scum and an SK is

very

unbalanced against the town.

[Aimee]

bobbyplumb is obviously scum now. I would vote, but I don't think at the moment we should end the day (we could get more information yet), so I am not voting.

The way you reacted cemented it for me - you would never vote for a claimed cop if you were town. The only reason you should have voted for him is if you were the cop, but seeing as you didn't counter-claim (the right thing for scum to do), it just emphasises the fact you are newbie scum.

[Aimee]

The way you reacted cemented it for me - you would never vote for a claimed cop if you were town. The only reason you should have voted for him is if you were the cop, but seeing as you didn't counter-claim (the right thing for scum to do), it just emphasises the fact you are newbie scum.

I totally disagree with this reasoning. If bobby was a townie, it would be completely appropriate for him to vote for pickem because he would have proof (in his townie PM) that pickem is lying. And liars get lynched.

Yeah, fair point. I was meaning "if bobby is experienced scum" he would do that.

[Aimee]

How many left, five?

Should I wait for the others to weigh in...

or HAMMAH?

[Aimee]

A paranoid gun shop owner? In a mini normal? Doubtful.

[Aimee]

Oh wait, now I understand. He's saying the 2 mafia setup is unbalanced in favor of the town, he just worded it strangely. Duh.

Maybe there IS only 2 mafia, and he is complaining about the game setup here?

It isn't unbalanced, though.

2 Mafia and an SK. Three mafia would be unbalanced against the town.

[Aimee]

Vote: NabakovNabakov

Yay![/b]

[Aimee]

Ooh, okays.

I feel a bit stupid now. I was the doctor, and I decided to lay low. However, I had a minor oopsie early on - Night 1 and 2 I protected NabakovNabakov! But I did my duty - I protected pickem the night of the no kill, thus cementing the town's victory.

Pickem, should we have a victory dance for the town?

[Aimee]

Stewie mentioned killing Aimee on Night 2, and me and NN thought Hijalti instead.

I think I did it again night three.

Um, why was I picked? I wouldn't call this one of my crowning achievements, although I was the doc. Was I dangerous?

[Aimee]

N-N did a really good job.

I protected him Nights 1 and 2. Nights 3 and 4 I protected pickem.

[Aimee]

3 goons + 1 SK is pretty standard for a mini, and leaving out a GF was the right choice considering the power-level of the town. However, I find the addition of a survivor/self-reviver rather questionable. When the town is in Lylo after only one mislynch, there's something wrong with the balance. Lynching the SK on D2 was the correct play based on the information we had, and we could have been punished for it.

Three Goons and an SK, plus doc and cop, is slightly town-biased. The risk of crosskills hurts the scum. The survivor is fine, as an unusual alternative to the GF to balance the game back slightly toward the scum. Two non-mafia lynches and no crosskills putting you in LyLo is not particularly unbalanced.

I personally believe it was unbalanced (having five players who weren't on the town's side). It basically only allowed us one mislynch - a pretty weak scenario which we did indeed find ourselves in.

[Aimee]

Stewie mentioned killing Aimee on Night 2, and me and NN thought Hijalti instead.

I think I did it again night three.

Um, why was I picked? I wouldn't call this one of my crowning achievements, although I was the doc. Was I dangerous?

You were lurking. I figured you had a powerrole and were purposely lurking to not give any tells.

Correct.

[Aimee]

Cogito Ergo Sum told me that docs are meant to be afraid of being lynched. That is one of their tells, anyway.

I tried to do the opposite of this. Apparently, I was only just successful - the scum wanted to kill me because I was too lurkerish, and considered to have a power-role. In short, my strategy almost backfired.

[Aimee]

3 goons + 1 SK is pretty standard for a mini, and leaving out a GF was the right choice considering the power-level of the town. However, I find the addition of a survivor/self-reviver rather questionable. When the town is in Lylo after only one mislynch, there's something wrong with the balance. Lynching the SK on D2 was the correct play based on the information we had, and we could have been punished for it.

Three Goons and an SK, plus doc and cop, is slightly town-biased. The risk of crosskills hurts the scum. The survivor is fine, as an unusual alternative to the GF to balance the game back slightly toward the scum. Two non-mafia lynches and no crosskills putting you in LyLo is not particularly unbalanced.

I personally believe it was unbalanced (having five players who weren't on the town's side). It basically only allowed us one mislynch - a pretty weak scenario which we did indeed find ourselves in.

Two of those five bodies count

against

the mafia winning condition. You had two opportunities to nail mafia before you hit LyLo, and that's in the worst case scenario of no crosskills. What you forget in this scenario is a lynch of a neutral or an SK basically

is

a mislynch. Replacing the SK with a townie makes the scum's life

easier

.

No, but theoretically, by Day 3 there could be one person in the town left. In a twelve player game, that is unbalanced.

Panzer knows how much I <3 him though.

[Aimee]

And, theoretically, there could be only one mafioso left without the town having lynched correctly at all. That seems unbalanced as well.

Point taken, I guess. I get confused with game setups sometimes (I am a bit dim, I know). I consider it more balanced with 2 Mafia and an SK.

Am I a true idiot, or a genius?

[Aimee]

And, theoretically, there could be only one mafioso left without the town having lynched correctly at all. That seems unbalanced as well.

Point taken, I guess. I get confused with game setups sometimes (I am a bit dim, I know). I consider it more balanced with 2 Mafia and an SK.

Am I a true idiot, or a genius?

Two mafia and an SK makes it very, very hard for the mafia to win. It seems to me like you're looking at it only thru the prism of 'Oh no, the SK makes the town's life harder!' Trust me, in a game like this, SKs who survive any decent length of time give the scum fits. (I know this from games elsewhere). The SK in a mini isn't an unbalancing factor, but it's a destablising one- the game doesn't start unbalanced, but it can get that way very quickly. Consider the difference between the SK hitting a scummer, and a cop, night one.

I think this is why I dislike neutrals in mini games.