Mini 451 - Totally Awesome Mafia, Game Over

[Off the Mark]

vote: bobbyplump

because that name makes me giggle

[Off the Mark]

no offense if yer a townie.....

This is SCREAMING scum to me.

unvote: bobbyplump

vote: Nekka-Lucifer

[/b]

[Off the Mark]

Huh? We have 12 alive, isn't it 6 to lynch?

Just in case, I'll

unvote

but my suspicion remains

[Off the Mark]

Oops, I need to make sure it's official.

Unvote:

[Off the Mark]

OK, I didn't think 3 votes was any big deal but didn't want to be lynched for a stupid mistake either.

In that case,

vote: Nekka-Lucifer

[Off the Mark]

@NabakovNabakov

Are you a stalker or something? You know way too much about me.

Well, if you've read the only other game I've played here, you are not going to believe a word I say, are you? (I was scum in that game) Well, don't worry, I have no reason to lie this time around.

[Off the Mark]

That just leads the impression of mafia.....

How so? I'm honestly curious. Is this purely WIFOM?

[Off the Mark]

WIFOM = Wine in Front of Me

Is the poison in the wine in front of you or your enemy? Basically, whenever you get into the circular logic of thinking, "acting scummy would be doing X, or maybe scum is doing Y in order to intentionally look townie, or maybe he knows that we'll realize that and he'll really do X" - basically you get stuck in a loop.

I figured you were thinking "he is saying something to blatantly look townie, which means he is scum." But that's not what I'm doing here. Like I said, I have no reason to lie.

btw, I think you mean "lends the impression" or "leads to the impression". And what are "no votes"? You lost me there.

[Off the Mark]

What's with the vote count at the top of the page INSIDE of Nekka-Lucifer's post? I haven't seen this type of modding before... the VC is not right, either, at least for me. Nabakov unvoted me, and now I believe Nekka has voted for me, so I am at 2.

Nekka-Lucifer - you said you were convinced I'm townie but you're still voting for me. I'm reasonably convinced you're simply a misguided newb (just like me) and you didn't mean anything by your first post, so:

unvote: Nekka-Lucifer

but still IGMEOY

We haven't heard anything from this guy, except for his intial random vote, so I'm going to

Vote: hjallti

just to get him talking.

[Off the Mark]

Or maybe it's simply the truth. This is part of my playstyle, I say daring things that get people to respond and then I see how they react to them. I've got lots of useful info already. It's better than pages and pages of random voting.

[Off the Mark]

Like I said, I'm gauging reactions here.

You're all correct, my statement does seem pretty crap/meaningless except it's got us talking, right?

Also, I never claimed. All I said was I have no reason to lie. Take that however you would like.

[Off the Mark]

After reading things over a few more times, I am going to put my vote back where it was.

vote: Nekka-Lucifer

Three reasons:

1. "No offense if yer a townie" - trying too hard to fit in - no one else felt "bad" about their random votes.

2. Pushing everyone to vote - what's the hurry? Short days favor the mafia.

3. This reason is going to sound odd, coming from me, but he accepted me as townie a little too quickly, don't you think? I was surprised when I first read his post that he had suddenly dropped all suspicion of me. I know he said that he accepted that I was probing for info, but the way things played out, it seems like he must have had inside information. I don't think I said anything worthy of townie confirmation.

The only other person who has pinged my scumdar at ALL (and this is very minor) is bobbyplump, for his "hope this doesn't make me look scummy to you" comment. Everyone else seems clean so far. Still waiting to hear more from hjallti and CTD though. My initial read of CTD is already pro-town though, because I am guessing he voted for Nekka-Lucifer for the same reason that I picked up on.

[Off the Mark]

Nabakov's post wasn't there when I started mine - looks like we have some pressure building... I'm the 4th vote right?

[Off the Mark]

If I was scum, then why would other scums vote me

Please clarify: who are the other scum who are voting for you? And you know this how??? You seem to think A Papaya is scum. Other than his vote for you, what makes you believe this?

[Off the Mark]

I NEVER EVEN VOTED FOR HIM!

Right, you FOS'd him. But at the time of his post that I quoted, he thought you were voting for him.

[Off the Mark]

@hjallti

Sorry, I know it wasn't much real world time, but you and CTD were the only ones that hadn't contributed to the thread since your opening votes. My vote's no longer on you, if that matters.

@everyone

CTD and hjallti still aren't contributing much to the thread, though. Hopefully we'll get some input this morning. N-L is still looking scummy to me, especially his last few posts, but he is so newbish it could just be that. I don't think I'd be comfortable with a N-L lynch at this point, but we should still maintain the pressure to see what comes of it.

Just saw hjallti's post - wanting people to contribute to the game is GOOD, not BAD. This reads to me that he simply does not like being called out for lurking.

FOS: Hjallti

[Off the Mark]

OK, interesting mod commentary there. I still do not like the fact that Hjallti got defensive about being called out. Seems to me a pro-town player would just say, "I can't post on weekends" without adding the extraneous garbage about how it is "no good for the game and for the town" for people to ask others to contribute.

Also, he unvotes N-L and changes it to an FOS. This could easily be two scum here. He initially "random" voted N-L to create distance, but when pressure mounted he backed off his vote to "reevaluate". I'm very interested to see what Hjallti has to say later today or tomorrow. I wouldn't bet on this 2-scum scenario being true quite yet, I'm just saying it is possible.

[Off the Mark]

@Nekka-Lucifer

You never responded to my questions in post 91. You posted in post 95 and completely ignored my questions. Why?

[Off the Mark]

I really don't know what to make of Nekka's last post. (116) If he really is scum, then that is just a sad, sorry excuse of a post. Basically, it is so scummy, it makes me think he's townie, because I haven't seen anything to make me think he's clever enough to pull off the "too scummy" bluff. Now I am using WIFOM, I know, so at this point, I really don't know what to do - I almost want to unvote him, but I don't see anyone else worthy of a vote at this point. I'm going to wait for others to evaluate before I do anything, but now I am less sure of Nekka's scumminess (ironically because he is too scummy)

The only way he really is scum is that he has simply given up and is posting absolute crap.

[Off the Mark]

This is another post that looks incredibly scummy:

Good moring everyone.

Vote: Nekka-Lucifer

This seems scummish so I think I'll

vote: CrashTextDummie

Not only that, he seems to have been reading but not posting (lurker perhaps) I'm not THAT familiar with what scum notifications are but I feel this is quite a strong one... Either that or it was just a mispost

How does a vote and a "good morning" look scummy? How is that a "strong" scumtell? I think I was overthinking this with my WIFOM argument in my last post. If it stinks like a skunk, it's probably a skunk.

I especially don't like the phrasing of "so I think I'll vote" like he's just tossing votes around willy nilly.

[Off the Mark]

Are you saying that lurker wagons are bad, or that you saying something makes it true? I know you are wrong about the former, and also the latter by extension, but I was wondering.

I think he's just jokin' around.

[Off the Mark]

Well, scum haven't piled on to N-L, so either he really is scum, or scum are being very cautious and taking their time. (or scum are already voting for N-L, but I don't think this is the case, at least not all of em)

[Off the Mark]

Sorry for the triple post, just realized that Papaya cast vote #5 and Highland Sage unvoted Lowell. So we do have a little movement here... something to think about.

[Off the Mark]

Here is an analysis

First of all I think Nekka's behaviour is very newbie, so I wouldn't have a clue if it is bad town play or bad scum play. After reading through everything I don't suspect him any longer at this point.

You don't? I can see how you could say "he looks suspicious, but I'm leaning towards newb" but to flat out say you don't suspect him any longer is just plain weird to me. Strike one.

I got a little upset because I did follow the rules (saying that a absency should be PM'd to the Mod rather than being announced publicly), and already after 1 day playing I'm called to duty, while I already did post.

Here's the thing - there's really no reason to get "upset" unless you are mafia and you feel that you have been found out despite following the rules and notifying the mod. In my experience, townies usually say, "Sorry I have been away!" But to get emotional about it seems like a scum reaction. Strike two.

So the only scummy thing around so far, IMHO, is that someone using the difference between number of replies (reply 46, while mine was 17) and time to reply maybe, makes a strange comment only 20 hours! after my random vote:

I wasn't "using" anything. Everyone had contributed except you and CTD, so I decided to vote one of you to spark a reaction. (and BOY is that working well)

my point is that he clearly wants to point to my absence at a moment I had played in the last 24 hours!

vote: Off the Mark

Dude, look. We were barely out of the random voting stage. You are acting like having one vote on you is some kind of major insult. It's just 1 vote! This is overdefensiveness to the max. Do you

really

feel my actions are scummy? Putting one vote on you to get you talking? That happens all the time, in every game I play/read! And you are reacting as if this is something only a scum would dare to do... again, very weird reaction. Overdefensiveness = Strike three.

unvote: Nekka-Lucifer
vote: Hjallti

I am more confident of your scumminess than his, since he could just be a nutty newbie. Another thing that is influencing this vote is something I am not sure it is cool to discuss. I won't say too much, but just think about the motivation behind post 112. I think that post is more likely if hjallti is scum.

[Off the Mark]

OK now I am pretty dang sure I was right about the 2-scum scenario I posted earlier. N-L and hjallti are both guilty, folks.

[Off the Mark]

Just to clarify my suspicions here:

I respect Off the Mark seeing me as pro-town (which I am) but this post makes me think he's scum

This statement makes NO sense. If you were really a townie who believed I was scum, then you believe that I

know

who is pro-town and who else is scum. It is a complete contradiction to say you respect my opinion but you think I'm scum. If I was scum and you were town, my opinion should be garbage to you because all my suspicions would be fake.

I think it was probably just a small pro-town mistake or a misinterpreted about people 'accusing' them on lurking, I think that's what it was.. I may have to check over it again

This stinks of scum protecting scum, and I don't think I've ever seen it more obviously. Including the superfluous "I may have to check it over again" to try to make it look like he is honestly evaluating. Please.

[Off the Mark]

post 43, perhaps?

WIFOM = Wine in Front of Me

Is the poison in the wine in front of you or your enemy? Basically, whenever you get into the circular logic of thinking, "acting scummy would be doing X, or maybe scum is doing Y in order to intentionally look townie, or maybe he knows that we'll realize that and he'll really do X" - basically you get stuck in a loop.

[Off the Mark]

I am equally certain that Nekka and Hjallti are scum. Lowell, at least seems to agree with me. HS and Nabakov think Lowell is suspicious for agreeing with very little content. I agree that does not look real good, but from my perspective, he is agreeing with my own pro-town argument, so it is hard for me to see him as scummy.

I find it a little odd that Stewie, HS, and Nabakov all posted without much of a response to my N-L & Hjallti scum duo theory. But they can't all be scum, heh, so I guess some of them feel I am grasping at straws. And I was so sure that Nekka's last post was going to be the nail in one of their coffins.

I guess we wait for N9V, Aimee, bobbyplump, and CTD to weigh in. I am willing to switch my vote to Nekka, if the town is still more comfortable with that lynch.

[Off the Mark]

@Nabakov

No, my case against Hjallti does not at all rest on my belief that Nekka is scum. My case against Hjallti is outlined in post 129.

As I have said repeatedly, Nekka has often looked so scummy that I cannot believe he is actually scum. But his recent post, #131, cemented him as scum in my mind. How can you refute my argument about his statement of "I respect your opinion, but I think you are scum."? That just makes no sense at all for a townie to say. But it makes perfect sense for a newbie mafia to say. Don't forget, just because he is an utterly clueless newbie, it does not rule out the fact that he could be an utterly clueless newbie in the mafia.

If anything, my belief that Nekka is scum depends more on Hjallti being scum than the other way around. When I threw out the N-L / Hjallti theory the first time, I was not too confident at all... I just noted it as a possibility. Nekka's post 131 made me much more confident.

[Off the Mark]

Nekka-Lucifer is either a very raw townie or a very smart mafia.

What rules out him being a very raw mafia?

[Off the Mark]

So I guess I have to respond to the baseball analogy of Off the Mark, which ends with saying that post 112 made it scummy to him... a vote count? WIDE 1

The vote count part of that post was not what I was referring to, which I think you know.

On strike 1.
I read a game where ~n9v~ lost the game for town by being to overactive as a newbie, I guess the effect of this at the beginning unmotivated pressure on Nekka made him over defensive, as newbies tend to do. I see no proof in his posts that his action do something else than that. Wide 2

I'm struggling to see how your first sentence here relates to the other two, but anyway, this is more defense of Nekka, which I find interesting.

On strike 2.
As being a newbie myself, and still getting adjusted to the pace of the game, it indeed was upsetting to me, that after 20 hours already I got this post, it would have been different if it occured on sunday and monday. wide 3

OK.

On strike 3
You clearly didn't (want to?) get my point on voting you. I am not voting you for having attacked me, as I explained it was not OMGUS, I voted you for having put up the fog argument that I hadn't played in a long time. Your post was scummy objectively, and is the only scum part we have left if we believe Nekka is town.... Wide 4...

The strange part is, you seem to be the only one who thinks Nekka looks less scummy than me. Gee, I wonder why that is.

I think it is rather scummy to misphrase arguments and make them sound different...

Funny you are saying this!! Since you keep misrepresenting my statements regarding my first vote for you. It was simply a vote to prod you into sharing some info, that's ALL. It had nothing to do with you "not playing in a long time". I didn't even look at the timestamps, I just wanted everyone to contribute.

With all that being said, I still find Nekka and Hjallti both equally scummy. But Stewie is right when he says Nekka's vote hopping needs to be addressed. Overall, I think Nekka has committed more scummy actions than Hjallti, so it makes sense he should be pressured. Post 131 makes me VERY comfortable putting my vote on Nekka, so:

unvote:
vote: Nekka-Lucifer

mod: Nekka is voting for me, not CrashTextDummie

[Off the Mark]

I still don't see any 1post proof that I'm mafia.. Either he's extremely lazy (which we know he isn't) or he is the mafia... I don't know who with, could be Hjalti for all I know

Oh please - my analysis of your posts can be found throughout the entire thread. There's no need for me to compile one huge-ass post just to say the things I've already said. "Either he's lazy or he's mafia" is a false dichotomy. Post 133 is my analysis of your post 131, which is the main reason I find you so scummy.

[Off the Mark]

OK here's the deal. Either I'm right or I'm wrong. Either way, the town benefits because we will find scum. If I'm right and Nekka is scum, then Hjallti and now possibly bobbyplump are probably scum too. If I'm wrong and Nekka is townie, then I know I am going to look very bad. So then you can lynch me or lynch the guys that agreed with me without saying much else, Lowell and Papaya.

What I'm trying to say is, even if I'm totally off-base, I think I've helped the town with this theory, even if it is just because I helped expose those who are agreeing with what turns out to be a bad idea.

I still stand by my analysis, though. NONE of the posters who have said they don't agree with me have addressed Nekka's ridiculous "I respect your opinion but I think you are scum" comment. They have no counter-argument for that because it is a dead giveaway.

I don't mean to "lead" the town to a certain lynch - I've just been a prolific poster throughout this game, so I tend to notice things first and then if people agree with the things I see, then yeah, it looks like I am the leader. But my Hjallti bandwagon didn't get very far and now I have 3 votes against me so my leadership hasn't been all that effective, apparently.

I'm going to try to step into the background for a bit, since it seems my scumhunting is making me appear suspicious to some. Let's see what others have to say.

[Off the Mark]

I don't think it's hard evidence. We aren't going to get any hard evidence on Day 1. Day 1 lynches are almost always a "best guess" scenario. This is another reason I am suspicious of Nekka - he asked for "HARD PROOF" of Hjallti's scumminess. It's day 1! There's no such thing as "HARD PROOF".

My theory is just a theory - it's a best guess. In the vast majority of games, that's the best you can do on Day 1.

[Off the Mark]

Here's something new and interesting: Aimee is posting in other threads, but she hasn't posted in this one in quite a while.

[Off the Mark]

By the way, you seem to be happy that the discussion revolves over you, me and Nekka.... you seem to be the one reverting all talk from the rest of us...

That's right... Steer the conversation away from me, you, and Hjalti...

Hmph... can't please anybody around here.

[Off the Mark]

@Nabakov

you're right that could just be logical bumbling - a valid point

I guess it was just the last straw for me, after all his other scumtells and his defense of Hjallti.

[Off the Mark]

I said it because I respect you for saying I'm townie.... But for that, I feel that you are scum defending a townie so if he's lynched... you look good for defending him (me), as mafia normally defend other mafia to lower the odds of them being the mafia to be lynched and lose...

*Sigh*... you still don't get it. Let me break it down.

IF you really believe I am mafia, you would NOT respect my opinion about you. Everything you are saying above, after "But for that" has nothing to do with the fact that you are claiming to "respect" me. In fact, it makes it worse. Now you're saying you think I am fake-defending you in order to look good when you are lynched? And yet you respect me for that? Totally illogical. And yet that seems to be your M.O., so who knows.

[Off the Mark]

IM TOWNIE (amusment for A Papaya)

Is that your claim, or are you just saying "pro-town"? You are at 5 votes, you know. If you're going to claim, it's time.

[Off the Mark]

I gotta say, Nekka, if you turn out to be town, this is the worst pro-town play I've ever seen.

[Off the Mark]

You're right Stewie, that was totally uncalled for. Sorry, Nekka!

[Off the Mark]

Clearly he felt that "no offense if yer a townie" line was enough to justify his early vote. Then as things proceeded, he decided his initial suspicion was justified. It's not a hard concept to understand. I do think it's interesting that you keep pestering him, Nabakov.

If N-L turns out to be innocent, then we may have something to look into with CTD... but there are others will have to be accountable for their actions. (myself included)

[Off the Mark]

Aimee, you are keeping your vote on N9V while you are away? Why not vote N-L since you agree he is suspicious?

Nabakov defended N-L, but so did bobbyplump and Hjallti, so they can't all be guilty.

[Off the Mark]

OK. I felt his explanation was clear enough and was just spelling it out in more detail for Nabakov, but whatever.

[Off the Mark]

So we have 2 people gone all week? If they are both pro-town, and if scum simply doesn't vote for scum, (assuming there are 3 scum) that leaves the town with only 7 possible votes. So we'd need to be unanimous in order to lynch a scum. That makes things quite difficult.

and if you DO lynch me and I turn up innocent

You don't sound too sure about that.

[Off the Mark]

bobbyplump's last post is quite interesting - it is actually pretty good analysis, but I am not sure if it is genuine or not. Given that post, it is hard to imagine that bobby and Hjallti are both scum. Possibilities:

A) Hjallti is town and bobby is scum and bobby is opportunistically using a change in heart by Hjallti to make him look suspicious.

B) Hjallti is scum, bobby is town and his arguments are genuine.

C) Both are town - I guess it is possible they both accepted N-L as town initially because of his newbishness. Seems rather unlikely though.

D) Both are scum, and bobby is putting on a good show to distance himself from Hjallti. This seems very unlikely because this would mean N-L is also scum and bobby is willing to go solo.

His FOS of Aimee at the bottom seems reasonable to me, too. I am now leaning more towards townie on bobby. I guess it is silly to break all this down at this point. Hopefully we'll be able to figure out more after the night.

I don't want to speculate about mafia actions too much, because that sets up a huge WIFOM cycle when they do/don't decide to follow my analysis. But I will just say that I would not be surprised to be their target tonight - and this is actually more likely if I am wrong than if I am right. If I'm right about a few suspects, it might seem too obvious to kill me off. If I'm wrong, the mafia can kill me off and make it look like I was right. Eh, this is major WIFOM here, I probably shouldn't even be posting it, but I'm sure the same argument would come up after the fact.

[Off the Mark]

Also, someone made a point about me defending myself...

They did? Where? I haven't seen any defense of yourself at all, except for just saying "I'm townie" which doesn't count. You seemed to just give up, rather than defend yourself.

Hjallti was accused of over-defensiveness a couple times, but I don't recall if you were.

I read through your other games and MAN you do seem like scum in every single one of them. Unfortunately, in none of the games do I see a death where your role is revealed. You managed to get modkilled in one game, though, for sending a PM during the day, that was cute. Still, even excusing the newbish posts, I think we've got enough evidence in this game that you seem like a newb mafia rather than a newb townie. Do you have any defense?

[Off the Mark]

I'm not switching my vote for aformentioned reasons. <snip>

I'm not trying to push the lynch of a townie, but if it's inevitable, let's not waste another 9 pages (and god knows how many real life days).

Geez you may as well have voted for him, because this looks equally suspicious. In fact, more so, if he comes up as town. Now it looks like you KNEW he would be town and thus were unwilling to cast the hammering vote because you knew you would look suspicious. Just when I thought you were leaning town too, now I don't know what to think.

Let's just hope he's scum for clarity's sake.

[Off the Mark]

Good post, Hjallti. It does put you in a tough spot when you are under suspicion. Everything you do from then on is either "scummy" or "scum trying not to look scummy". I have been in that position too, and it stinks. We'll figure it out more on day 2. I have some ideas, but I don't want to muddy the waters at this point.

[Off the Mark]

@Lowell

So, you're not suspicious of me, but you want to cast a vote for me simply so that there's another bandwagon. OK... what's your goal here? Do you think we need more discussion? I think the reason that discussion has "fizzled" is because most people are happy with where their votes are and Nekka is not posting much of a defense of himself. The only people who really have something to discuss at this point is you and Nabakov and the people who aren't here all week.

If you really want to generate discussion, I think you'll need to build a case against me. I am fine with that, if you want to go that direction, as it will certainly generate more discussion. But I think we might be better off moving on to day 2 at this point, simply to keep everyone interested in the game. When Day 1 lasts forever, you start getting lots of players replaced and then the game is not as good.

@N9V

That post looks pretty scummy, man. To me it looks like you are saying "If Nekka is town, lynch OtM and if he is scum, lynch Hjallti." You should know how bad it looks to be planning tomorrow's lynch at this point. It is sooo easy for scum to setup scenarios so that it becomes a no-lose situation for them the next day, especially since they already know what the result of today's lynch will be. Also, you are experienced enough so that you should know that the most likely scum are not the ones driving a wrong bandwagon, they are ones leaping on board a bad bandwagon. I started out driving the N-L bandwagon, but then I thought I had a clearer scumtell from Hjallti, so I started up a new one. Then N-L came along and convinced me he was the more likely scum, so I went back to my original suspicion.

[Off the Mark]

unvote

I want to see the reactions to the latest posts before we end the day.

[Off the Mark]

ugh, too late.

[Off the Mark]

wait, no it isn't... Lowell didn't use a colon.

unvote:

[Off the Mark]

Ok, I think I have officially given up... If everyone agrees to vote Off the Mark on day 2, then i will happily lynch myself...

Nekka, could you expand on this a little bit more? If you could just explain some of your motivations a little bit...

I really hate concession speeches. Is this game actually that exhausting???

Is this really a reason to hammer someone? Especially someone you didn't want to vote for just a couple posts back?

[Off the Mark]

Well he did that 3 pages ago... I'm so very confused. I guess we need a mod call on Lowell's vote. When I look at Nekka's recent posts, I think, "How could he be scum? Either he IS just a confused newb or he's suddenly gotten very clever on us." But then I go back and read posts where he says

I'm convinced that OTM is scum!!! -- PS: I barely read your post.

and I wonder what the hell I was thinking when I was unvoting him. If he's townie, he's not helping us. If he's scum, he takes all the attention away from the other scum. So in a way, he could be playing well!

vote: Nekka-Lucifer

[Off the Mark]

Well that sucks, and I know I'm going to look bad today. I knew something was wrong at the end of day 1. When N-L made his "I give up" speech and I asked him for his motivations, I was thinking he wouldn't post that (about wanting everyone to lynch me today) unless he was just misguided town.

I don't want to lead the town astray again today, so I'm not going to make a huge argument here. I'll just say I'm suspicious of the following: N9V, Hjallti, and Stewie. I'll lay out my reasons eventually, but I want to see what others think first.

[Off the Mark]

Could be mafia plus Vig. Vig may have been convinced that Lowell was scum. I must admit, I was pretty suspicious of him after he voted for me, and then hammered Nekka out of the blue.

[Off the Mark]

Just realized something. I think we are in lynch or lose here. If there are 3 Mafia and an SK, that means there are only 5 town alive. Yikes!

[Off the Mark]

But if we lynch wrong, then Mafia kills 1 at night we are down to 3 townies, 3 Mafia, and 1 SK. Then if SK also kills a townie at night it would be 2t/3m/1sk. Does the game continue as long as the SK is alive?

[Off the Mark]

@bobby

Vig = vigilante. A pro-town player who can kill at night. Tries to kill mafia or SK.

IGMEOY = "I've got my eye on you", sort of a small FOS.

I think the mod was just covering his bases. If he hadn't put in the delay, then Aimee and Highland Sage would be confirmed townies. However, Aimee has been playing quite cautiously, that is not a bad FOS. Heh, IGMEO: Aimee and Papaya

[Off the Mark]

@CTD

You were suspicious of bobby on Day 1 because he defended Nekka, right? (maybe it was something else, it would be nice if you'd explain if so)

Now Nekka is confirmed innocent and you are still suspicious of bobby. Care to explain?

[Off the Mark]

You're right, it could be 2 mafia, I was just applying the 25% rule. Maybe it's 4 mafia vs a town with vig and cop and doc, we just don't know at this point.

[Off the Mark]

IGMEO is very low on the suspicion-meter. IGMEO everybody, really...

My (slight) suspicion of Papaya stems from his leaping onto the Hjallti & Nekka bandwagons without a lot of reasons stated. His posts have always had a pro-town vibe to them, though, so I'm not sure what to think. If he is scum, he is being pretty smooth about it. His first post of Day 2 does look pretty bad, though, seems like he wants to start a bandwagon on me right away without discussing everyone else.

I really don't like N9V's posts at the end of Day 1 though. Very fishy things going on there... despite his protests, it still seems to me he was planting seeds for the Day 2 lynch.

[Off the Mark]

If he comes up town, find out who was attacking him the most, and if scum, find out who was defending him, then started to attack him towards the end of his life. That will help us find scum.

As we already talked about, this seems to me you are saying to lynch me if Nekka comes up town. Setting up the next days lynch is scummy.

Yep, we lynched our first scum. Giving up isn't all that bad of a scum tell, but saying that if your not scum, then someone else is, that is huge scum tell.

This post also seems scummy to me now. I didn't have any confidence at all that Nekka was scum. But you were displaying confidence here. Makes me think perhaps it was fake confidence.

[Off the Mark]

Since we lost three townies last night, we really need to go after mafia.

[Off the Mark]

SK needs to kill everyone to win. So they may kill town or mafia. If SK is still alive, the game continues, but if the town is in the minority it becomes very very hard to win. Once the town is in the minority, the mafia can control the lynches AND the nightkills until they find the SK and then they win.

Our best chance is to find scum now to try to keep our numbers in the majority over the scum. Plus, finding the SK is a lot harder than finding scum. The SK has no more info about others' roles than a vanilla townie, so they really don't have any tells. At least none that I know of.

[Off the Mark]

Now that's interesting. You just used my own reasoning to cast a vote for me. Think about that for a second.

[Off the Mark]

You know what? I agree 100% with Nabakov. We need to hear from CTD. I have read other games of his and I know he is a smart guy who usually does solid analysis. So what the heck is he doing here? Is this some sort of playstyle experiment? If so, it seems to me more likely to experiment with a scum or SK role. We need his input so we have something to evaluate.

vote: CrashTextDummie

[Off the Mark]

I did think about that, OTM, and here's what I decided.

You're either saying that because you are pro-town, or because you want to appear to be pro-town. So basically, you have no choice, and that post is a wash.

If you are mafia, and you said, "No! We should go after the SK first," then other experienced players would pick up on it and you'd be lynched before you know it.

Yeah I guess either way you look at it, it is WIFOM reasoning. But if I was scum, there is also the possibility that I would just shut up and see what others say and then go from there, which seems like the best choice to me, instead of putting forth such a sensible pro-town argument. You are right that it can be good for the mafia to try to appear pro-town, but this only works to a certain point. If the mafia is truly helping the town, then they are helping the wrong team.

[Off the Mark]

You were very unsure about Nekka, yet you voted for him and encouraged others to vote for him!?

If you read through my posts yesterday, you will see that there were times where I was very confident Nekka was scum, (usually right after he said something ridiculous) and there were other times where I was not sure and was leaning towards confused newb. At the end of the day, when he made his "I give up" post, I was not sure at all.

[Off the Mark]

wow, I have no idea what to make of that

[Off the Mark]

What exactly makes you think he's more likely to experiment with a scum or SK role? Is there a reason why you find his "new" playing style particularly scummy?

Let's let him defend himself, shall we?

Also, what's with the "At the end of the day, I wasn't sure" post you just made? Are you saying that you weren't confident enough if he was scum or not, but decided to lynch him anyways?

Let's go over what happened again:

230 - N9V's first suspicious post

232 - Lowell votes for me

234 - another somewhat suspicious post by N9V

235 - Nekka posts "I give up, please lynch OtM tomorrow"

236 - Lowell hammers without a colon

237 - without seeing Lowell's post, I unvote to see if others are thinking the same as me about Nekka's "give up" speech -- I was thinking it meant he was town, but I didn't want to be too explicit about it because if Nekka was scum, then he could just say "Yeah that's what I meant."

241 - I ask Nekka to explain himself further. Again I am hoping he will post more to see if I get the same vibe I got from 235, but I don't want to say, "Do you mean X?" because it is too easy for Nekka-as-scum to just say, "Yeah, see, I'm town after all."

242 - N9V's post saying Nekka's "give up" speech is a scumtell.

243 - After N9V's post, I thought maybe I was just overthinking it and the simplest explanation is just that Nekka is scum, like I thought before. So I went back and read some of my interactions with Nekka. When I read the part I quoted in this post, "I'm convinced that OTM is scum!!! -- PS: I barely read your post", I felt like Nekka had to be scum so I went ahead and re-voted for him.

Now as it turned out, everything after post 236 turned out not to matter at all, since the mod honored Lowell's vote. But anyway, yeah I was pretty unsure throughout that whole exchange. Hopefully this gives you a little more insight into my motivations.

[Off the Mark]

Off The Mark- You basically insisted that everyone that defended N-L was scum. Genius.

Nice exaggeration. I thought two players defending Nekka seemed scummy, bobbyplump and Hjallti. In both cases, I had reasons other than their defense of Nekka. Nabakov defended Nekka too, and I never got a scum vibe from him.

I'm a little confused by the next part of your post where you just say "WIFOM" - are you saying that applies to all 4 of the quotes you posted of mine? The 2nd and the 4th quote have nothing to do with WIFOM. Did you even read post 112? It is a mod post - WIFOM does not apply. Analysis only becomes WIFOM when someone is trying to deceive you.

WTF! That reads hey N-L is townie, but i'll happily divert myself away from a day two lynch by commenting on two other people who voted with not much reasoning so I can get on them about it day two.

You are reading this with the benefit of already knowing Nekka came up innocent. There were times on Day 1 when he seemed sooo guilty and I'm not the only one who thought so. He really confused us, yesterday, you need to take that into account when you read. Sure, it seems different when you know which suspicions ended up being right and which ones were wrong. Read my post again and pretend you have no idea what Nekka is and it will make sense. You also have to take into account what I am responding to. I was just trying to show that even if I was wrong, we could use the bad bandwagon to find scum. That's all.

You honestly/really don't need to worry about looking suspicious unless you are scum.

Yes you do. It is bad town play to draw suspicion to yourself when you are innocent.

THEN WHY THE FUCK DID YOU SAY IT WAS A DEAD GIVEAWAY?

I have a tendency to overuse superlatives. I shouldn't have said "dead giveaway". It is naturally a part of my persuasive speech but it can get me in trouble. I did FEEL like it was a dead giveaway when I posted that, but no, it's not hard evidence. Does that make any sense? It's like the difference between going by your gut and going by pure logic. Gut told me that was a giveaway, logic told me it was just a little more evidence.

Most of your analysis is pretty good and I find myself agreeing with it. (except for the OtM could be scum part, heh) This doesn't make you any less scummy to me though. I am still slightly suspicious of Papaya/you though for the reasons I already explained. But CTD and N9V are who I feel we need to hear from more at this point.

[Off the Mark]

I'm just saying that voting for someone just because they are playing differently is crappy logic; unless you can actually explain why it's more likely for someone to experiment as scum than as town.

OK that is a legit question. And HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEWIE!

Basically, it seems like he doesn't have much to gain by changing his play style to zero content as a townie. All he's going to do is draw a little suspicion onto himself and maybe eventually get called out for the lack of content. But if he's a townie, and voting like a townie, what is he learning from the experiment? Not much.

But as a scum, it gives him info about how long he can keep up the playstyle before the town calls for his lynch. I don't know, I'm sure this is going to be criticized to death as WIFOM but we don't have anything else to go on when he refuses to say

anything

.

[Off the Mark]

How about games where he was town?

Aimee, you were going to comment on the "developments" from the last page. Please let us know your thoughts.

[Off the Mark]

, I always play under the radar. You should try reading one of the games I'm in now. Will post link when game is done. I'm too perfect in it. Sorry, will anylize this game tommorow.

Translation: I take pride in my scummy playstyle.

This isn't making you look any better.

[Off the Mark]

I already did - see post 283

[Off the Mark]

Ahh, now I see it. O.K, so how do you play this game? When someone is lynched turns up town, do you attack someone who defended him? Or someone totally random who said absolutly shit all about the guy who was lynched? No, you go after he who attacked him the most.

I am still figuring out how to play this game. But I think the best way to play is to identify scummy behavior. Scummy behavior can be attacking someone who is town, or it can be lurking, or leaping on a bandwagon for no good reason. An attacker could be scum or he could be just wrong. That's where we have to look at his reasons. Looking back, I think

was

a little overzealous on Day 1 and I am trying to be more careful today, so I don't jump to conclusions. My current vote on CTD is because I feel we need to hear from him. At this point, I have no idea if he is scum or not.

[Off the Mark]

looking forward to CTD's post

[Off the Mark]

I think he was responding to my post about going after the attacker. Not sure why he ignored your questions, though. I also think it would be good to see him answer those.

[Off the Mark]

I think many of us are waiting for CTD's contribution.

[Off the Mark]

Thank you for the analysis CTD. I find myself nodding along with the vast majority of it. Just one more question, though - can you PLEASE explain your lack of content throughout D1?

unvote: CTD

[Off the Mark]

Having CTD come out and post when he has three or four votes against him does not make him any less suspicious to me. If I were scum, I'd come out of the woodwork too in that situation.

So what would make him less suspicious to you? What parts of his analysis do you disagree with?

[Off the Mark]

I get the feeling N9V is lurking, hoping the pickemgenius bandwagon will take off, so he won't have to answer the questions from Nabakov and Hjallti. I am quite suspicious of both N9V and pickem, but for now I will

vote: N9V

in the hopes that we will get some answers to evaluate.

[Off the Mark]

I don't like N9V's vote on Nabakov at all - Nabakov is the most pro-town player here, in my mind. And his vote seems to be mocking the whole lynch process, (it's basically an OMGUS) which is very anti-town.

I'll be leaving my vote where it is.

[Off the Mark]

So you are saying that you are the vig, but you deliberately tried to mislead the town into thinking it was mafia + SK? (referring to the statement CTD quoted) That seems crazy. Please explain why you would do that. This seems like a lynch-all-liars situation to me.

[Off the Mark]

That doesn't explain it. You didn't have to comment on it at all, but you purposely lied about it.

[Off the Mark]

Do you still think hjallti is guilty?

No, I've gotten some good town vibes from him on Day 2, so I'm not very suspicious of him anymore. I think I overreacted on Day 1 to his defensiveness.

At least half the people participating in a D1 mislynch are usually townies. In addition, that statement could be designed to shift responsibility towards other people on the wagon.

That's exactly what it was. I know I'm pro-town, but it seems to me that people that leap on a bad bandwagon for no good reason are likely to be scum. I didn't like how things were going with people saying "lynch those who went after N-L the hardest if N-L comes up town" because I knew that would lead to another townie mislynch - mine.

It's hard to tell whether he lost confidence in his own scum-hunting abilities, or decided to step it down a notch in order not to get too much flak. Maybe he can answer that?

Mostly lost confidence. I am trying to consider things more carefully now, and think/listen more and talk less. I have another ongoing game where the same thing happened - I saw some bad newb anti-town behavior and I led the lynch mob, and wham - this guy was newb town too. Newbie 380 if you'd like to check it out. I still have confidence in my ability to reason things out, but I am less confident in going out on a limb on my own now.

Now I gotta say, I find this very interesting. If you've read other games with me and know I usually do solid analysis, and you think I'm more likely to experiment with a scum role, then why did you wait so long to bring this up?

2 reasons - your suspicions on Day 1 aligned with mine, so I saw no real reason to suspect you. Also, the "experiments are more likely with scum alignment" theory didn't occur to me until Day 2, when I started thinking about your playstyle more. Since your analysis started, I find you extremely pro-town.

[Off the Mark]

Also, I said I was suspicious of Stewie a while back, but I never laid out my case against him - it is somewhat similar to CTD's:

Although I was the most vocal about Nekka's scumminess, I wavered a lot about whether or not he was actually scum or just acting scummy. Stewie never wavered. Whenever the bandwagon started to go off the rails, Stewie was there to subtly nudge it in the right direction. Now this could be possible for a misguided townie to do, as well, but since he never expressed doubt about N-L, (as far as I remember, anyway) it makes me think he knew the truth already.

Posts where Stewie exhibits this behavior:

79:

Can you be more specific? His post was composed of three reasons. Which part is reasoning which makes him seem

more like scum than nekka

, and what's the "rest of the post" which you agree with?

146:

Seriously though, I think it's more likely for NL to be scum than Hjallti. I do think that there was an overreaction regarding the single vote on him. However, NL voted for several people already (I think it's 7 right now; I lost count) and I think the vote-hopping warrants some attention. As well as other things I and others mentioned. Hjallti may also be scum, but I think NL is scummier, and we can only lynch one person a day.

169:

When he said that, I was going to make a "blood stains with your DNA on the murder weapon" joke, but I realized that there's no dead body yet so that wouldn't have been so funny.

Nabakov: let NL defend himself, please.

185:

A claim as in saying what your role is. I know you are new, so I'll tell you this: it is in your best interest at the moment to tell us what your role is in your own words. Do not quote the mod PM.

Off the Mark: don't say stuff like that... it's his first game, so bad play is to be expected. I think it was bad scum play, but even if it's bad town play that comment seems out of line to me. He'll learn, in time.

224:

How about you try to defend yourself?

244:

You never really tried...

248:

I only gave up once and

I was scum

. I was a newbie, and I was 14.

Very interesting that he would bring that up.

I realize that these posts do not mean that Stewie is definitely scum. It is simply my evidence that Stewie subtly kept Nekka's bandwagon headed towards a lynch on Day1 and did not express any doubt in his scumminess.

[Off the Mark]

As the group said before, it's in the town's best interest to kill mafia first, then go after the SK. So, if that's the case, shouldn't we give N9V a pass today?

This is a pretty good idea. We could leave him alive and see if/who he kills. That would give us more info for sure. If we lynch wrong though, and he kills town, and mafia kills town - yikes, we are not going to recover from that. So it would be quite risky.

I think pickem and Stewie are very likely scum. I am more suspicious of pickem right now, I think.

If we DO leave N9V alive, the town should direct his kill. (kill X, if you don't we will lynch you) Of course, scum will be able to comment on that too, but that gives us even more info.

[Off the Mark]

I meant "good idea" as in "something good to think about" - not sure if the risks outweigh the benefits yet. Since YOU seem to think it is a terrible idea though, it makes me think we should do it.

From a scum perspective, of

course

it's a terrible idea. This doesn't necessarily mean it is the best move for the town though. We need others to weigh in.

[Off the Mark]

Considering more... I don't think we can afford another mislynch. If we've got a good lead on the SK, then I think we need to follow it rather than lynch an innocent. Unless we are quite confident of another player's scumminess (pickem?) then we should take this opportunity to lynch a bad guy.

[Off the Mark]

I'm convinced ~N9V~ is the SK. This leaves us with a probably opening of
9 town 2 maf 1SK (might be 8-3-1)
which was reduced D1N1
6 town 2maf 1SK
Killing the SK would us give then (after Nightkill)
5 town 2maf (thus something like a C9-configuration (although roles may vary more))

I think is very likely the setup, although like you said, we may have more roles than a typical C9 setup.

[Off the Mark]

From a scum perspective, of

course

it's a terrible idea. This doesn't necessarily mean it is the best move for the town though. We need others to weigh in.

I knew you'd say something like that, that's why I said that even you seem to think it's a risky move.

Whoah, this sounds like you are admitting to using a pro-scum argument.

[Off the Mark]

@Nabakov - about Stewie's comment

It's not like he confessed or anything, it just seems like he anticipated me disagreeing with him because he knows we are on opposite sides. And the way he said "even you" made me think that he sees me as pro-town, in contrast to how he sees himself. But the "even you" could also mean "even you who are presenting it as a good idea" so that's not solid either.

It was just a vibe I got, that's all.

[Off the Mark]

Hjallti - the problem with that kind of analysis is that we don't have the same chances of lynching mafia or lynching SK. We have no idea what the probabilities really are. We know N9V is either Vig or SK and we know he tried to mislead the town, so I would say his chances of being SK are about 80%. 20% chance he is Vig and made a really dumb play by lying to us.

If we could get an 80% shot at lynching scum, then I think the 5-1-1 scenario would be better than the 5-2-0 scenario, but I think the best we are going to do with a scum lynch is about 50%.

[Off the Mark]

My butt

No, actually, I figured that even if N9V never lied, there is a 50% chance he is SK. (and 50% he is Vig - well, there's also a tiny chance he is lying mafia, but I am willing to discard that as insignificant) Then you take into account that if he is Vig, he lied to town, which makes that far less likely to be true, and I adjusted to 80%. It's just my gut feeling, really.

For the mafia lynch attempt, I think there are 4 players I would trust as not-mafia:

Nabakov
Hjallti
myself (I might not be on everyone's trust list, but I'm on mine)
N9V - (since we are leaving him alive in this scenario)

CTD I am conflicted about because I have read a game where he was scum and he was nearly undetectable, so I don't know if I could ever put him on my trust list because he is just too good.

So we have these players to consider for mafia lynching:

pickem
Stewie
Aimee
bobbyplump (leaning town on him, but not enough for the trust list)
CTD

If 2 or 3 of them are scum, we have a 40-60% chance of nailing scum with a lynch on these players. But you gotta factor in some error in case my trust/distrust lists are inaccurate, so we're down closer to 40% for a scum lynch.

[Off the Mark]

Remember, mafia wants SK dead too. Those arguing the strongest without considering all options are looking scummy to me. And if he does turn out to be a vig who made a bad play, the mafia especially wants him dead. So it's win-win for them right now to argue for N9V's lynch.

[Off the Mark]

Hmmm now after that post, I am thinking you have nightkill immunity. This is rough - so many possibilities. The ability to point N9V at a scummy player does seem pretty tempting.

I am most interested in the opinions of Hjallti, Nabakov, and bobbyplump as far as what we should do with N9V today.

[Off the Mark]

Hey this may be senseless to post now, but I just realized why the mafia killed Highland Sage. Highland was the most suspicious of Lowell on Day1. Lowell looked the scummiest at the end of the day, so the mafia killed Highland to try to reinforce the idea that Lowell was scum.

Unfortunately for them, N9V ruined their plans as SK or Vig, ironically because he also thought Lowell looked scummy. And it makes sense for SK to target scummy looking players too (so they can claim vig) so that's not really any points in N9V's favor there.

[Off the Mark]

Did you realise that after rereading post 377?

I totally forgot that you posted that. Nice call. At the time, I wasn't too concerned with the motivations for the killings, since Lowell and Highland suspected each other. So I guess your theory didn't stick in my memory. Now that we know N9V killed Lowell, I started thinking about the kills a little more.

[Off the Mark]

Interesting, Nabakov. Only thing is, if he did the "smart" ruse, then he was also "dumb" for lying to the town at the same time. So maybe that answers the question for us. But still, even if he is SK, we could try to use him and see if the mafia deals with him at night. I highly doubt he'll get doc protection.

[Off the Mark]

I'm not quite as sure as you that N9V is the SK, CTD, (I'm about 80% sure) but can you explain this statement a little more:

The moment we rely on scum to take care of our problems, and on the SK to kill in our favor, we're giving control over the game out of our hands.

Couldn't we lynch him whenever we wanted? I guess he could get away with one kill where he didn't follow instructions, but I'm not sure I see how this is "giving away control of the game". I'm still keeping my vote on N9V, by the way, as I agree it is the safer play.

[Off the Mark]

Wow, I would not have picked Bobbyplump, but I believe you pickem, as your behavior is consistent with a cop's. I think Stewie is the other scum, or possibly Aimee. We still don't know if it's 2 or 3 scum, but I would guess only 2 right now.

vote: bobbyplump

[Off the Mark]

Yes I now I am sane also, Papaya investigated Hj Night 1 and got an innocent, and that should explain mine/Papayas different feelings toward Hj on Day 2 aswell.

This also explains why Papaya was so suspicious of me at the beginning of Day2. Since I had gone after both N-L and Hjallti, I can understand how I looked pretty scummy to him. Yeah, I was a little trigger-happy I guess.

[Off the Mark]

unvote

It just occurred to me that if there are 3 scum and we are in LYLO, and IF pickem was scum, this would be a pretty good play to end the game. I'm not saying at all that this is the most likely scenario, in fact I am still pretty sure pickem really is the cop because he would be taking a big risk of a counterclaim if he was trying to pull this off as scum.

But it is worth consideration and I want to see all the reactions before I revote.

[Off the Mark]

Hey, I was just doing a reread and I found this very interesting exchange:

FoS: bobbyblump

Uh...Ok? Does that have a reason behind it?

I believe there's a good chance that you are N-L's scumbuddy.

Fair enough. Of course, that would require N-L to be scum and we don't know that.

Nice try, bobby.

vote: bobbyplump

[Off the Mark]

Since I didn't explain that very well, let me make it more clear.

In a not-so-subtle way, bobby was trying to link his guilt/innocence to Nekka's with his response to CTD. Then he figured he would look better when Nekka came up town.

It's possible that was an honest response, but I think the scum explanation is more likely. He should have defended himself instead of linking himself to Nekka. But the Nekka link was too convenient for him to pass up, at the time.

[Off the Mark]

I think pickem is acting much more like a real cop than a scum-playing-cop. He acts like he has nothing to prove. If it's an act, it's a good one.

[Off the Mark]

The way you reacted cemented it for me - you would never vote for a claimed cop if you were town. The only reason you should have voted for him is if you were the cop, but seeing as you didn't counter-claim (the right thing for scum to do), it just emphasises the fact you are newbie scum.

I totally disagree with this reasoning. If bobby was a townie, it would be completely appropriate for him to vote for pickem because he would have proof (in his townie PM) that pickem is lying. And liars get lynched.

[Off the Mark]

This line also sticks out to me now:

Hey guys...I'm on dial up internet all weekend (race weekend here in Indy). I won't be able to post much until Mon or Tues.

Hope you don't see that as scummy.

[Off the Mark]

I have a strong feeling right now that OTM is also scum, in heavy bussing mode.

So, what gave you that idea? I would like to defend myself, but at this point, all I can say is "You're wrong."

[Off the Mark]

Hopefully our cop has good news.

The mafia killed CTD to try to make me look bad. I'm a little surprised they are trying the exact same trick again, but there it is.

[Off the Mark]

heh I knew Stewie was scum

vote: Stewie

[Off the Mark]

wait for feedback from everyone

[Off the Mark]

That is a totally ridiculous claim. Funny, though.

[Off the Mark]

CTD and I both posted cases against Stewie on Day 2

[Off the Mark]

Sorry for the triple post, but I couldn't resist this: (emphasis added)

Think it through, from a balance point of view, it makes perfect sense to have such a role, if of course there are thee mafia in one group (which I think is likely,

since two mafia would be unbalanced against the mafia

).

Huh??? Sounds like SOMEbody has mafia on the brain there. Hehehehee.

[Off the Mark]

Oh wait, now I understand. He's saying the 2 mafia setup is unbalanced in favor of the town, he just worded it strangely. Duh.

Maybe there IS only 2 mafia, and he is complaining about the game setup here?

[Off the Mark]

haha WOW - I was still more suspicious of Aimee, but Nabakov, your post at the end of day 4 REALLY made me suspicious of you. If you hadn't given me so many town vibes previously (nice job on that by the way, very well played) I would have voted for you simply based on that post.

There's no way you should have been trying to throw suspicion in my direction after what transpired. bobbyplump was trying to vote for me for two straight days. If I were scum, that would either be an amazing job of distancing, which bobby didn't seem savvy enough to pull off, or it confirms me as innocent. Stewie also tried to cast suspicion in my direction when he was under the gun, but this is more plausible that he could be trying a little distancing at this point.

Anyway, excellent game pickem!!! You saved the day, man.

Oh and you guys are going to flip out when you see my role. I am

not

a townie and ummmm...

I win!

But don't worry, town still wins too.

[Off the Mark]

No reason for suspense, I guess. I am a

Survivor

.

I figured at first I should claim Day 1 and then play under the radar. But then I thought, "Man, that's boring, there's gotta be another way to play this role." The main thing I didn't like about a Day 1 claim is that I would be putting my win condition in the hands of everyone else. I figured I'd survive if it was a close game, but if it was a blowout, I'd be killed off so town or scum wouldn't have to share the win.

So I decided to play as an aggressive scum hunter. I figured as long as I didn't do anything scummy, I would be able to successfully defend myself against any lynch attempts. I thought it very likely that I could be nightkilled, but that's where phase 2 of my plan would have kicked in. I was also given a one-shot revive, which I never had to use. (too bad Nabakov didn't target me last night, heh) If scum would have tried to NK me, I figured I'd be confirmed innocent. Unfortunately I didn't really consider an SK or Vig killing me, but luckily that didn't happen. I probably would have claimed after the NK-revive, but after waiting to see everyone's reactions.

I didn't even realize the side effect of my aggression was that the mafia would want to keep me alive since I looked suspicious. That was cool.

[Off the Mark]

If I would have claimed Day 1, town would have lynched me today, (since lynching me is equivalent to a no-lynch) so good thing I didn't go that route.

[Off the Mark]

Also, I figured we were in LYLO on Day 2 (since I was not a townie, there were 3 mafia vs. 4 townies). That's why I kept offering the suggestion of using N9V as a weapon. If the town would have gone along with that and lynched pickem, I could have won with the scum way back on D2. (not saying I knew pickem was town at that point, I really did think he was scummy, but I wanted to make the riskier play to try to end the game faster)

There was no way for me to press harder for a townie lynch, though, without looking really scummy for NOT wanting to lynch N9V. I also figured it was good for me to get a killing party out of the way, whether he was a vig or SK, so really it was a no-lose situation. If N9V was a vig, I win. If SK, I look good for calling him out.

Day 2 was the only time when I felt I was not playing the same as I would as vanilla town. Days 3 and 4 I simply wanted to be on the bandwagon early because I know the end of the bandwagon gets examined more closely the next day and I wanted to stay out of the spotlight.

[Off the Mark]

I think it's kind of funny that only the power-roles survived.

Heh and whose fault is that?

I know my role was fairly powerful because of the revive, but I didn't have to play for the town. On Day 2, I really didn't care if we lynched scum or not.

[Off the Mark]

LOL that would have seriously pissed me off. I didn't kill anybody!!

[Off the Mark]

Panzer. what do you mean by "massclaim would have broke him"?

[Off the Mark]

Heh one other crazy thing in this game. On Day 3, it was 3 townies, 3 mafia, and me. If I wanted mafia to win, I could have claimed and then said "all scum vote for pickem" and the town couldn't have done anything about it. In fact, that would have been the correct move because it is far less risky than relying on pickem to keep getting his investigations correct. Too bad I didn't think of that one at the time, hehe. Oh well, felt good to help the town win.

[Off the Mark]

Ah, I just realized why I couldn't do that. I didn't know if there were 2 or 3 scum. I never thought 3 scum + SK was unbalanced though, since I knew the town most likely had a cop and a doc.

[Off the Mark]

Wait? Survivor comes up guilty?

Dammit Pickem, if only you had investigated OTM instead.

Now that would be weird. I would have claimed, probably still gotten lynched, and then I would have revived. Then you get a NK, so if you killed a townie, we'd be at 1-1-1 and I guess I'd be in the spot of choosing who wins, scum or town.

[Off the Mark]

What tells could a doc have anyway? I've heard it said docs are supposed to act doc-ish (non-aggressive) but I've never really understood that. Doesn't acting doc-ish make it easy for scum to find docs?

[Off the Mark]

I think the balance was fine. Town had worst-case scenario after the first day, which shouldn't happen all that often.

A C9 setup is considered balance, and a mislynch on Day 1 puts you in LYLO on Day 2 in that setup too.

[Off the Mark]

Two of those five bodies count

against

the mafia winning condition. You had two opportunities to nail mafia before you hit LyLo, and that's in the worst case scenario of no crosskills. What you forget in this scenario is a lynch of a neutral or an SK basically

is

a mislynch. Replacing the SK with a townie makes the scum's life

easier

.

Fonz, you realize the town was in lylo on Day 2, right? Not just Day 3? They just had 1 chance to nail scum, not 2.

What made you want to read this game, out of curiosity? You weren't trying to research me for our "bland, flavorless game" were you?