Mini 466 - Game Over

[Sir Tornado]

Confirm

[Sir Tornado]

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (10) = 10

[Sir Tornado]

Vote Numenorean7

[Sir Tornado]

vote klopyrev

!!! Can I vote for myself?

Why are you voting for yourself?

[Sir Tornado]

Oh, by the way, I will

Unvote

my random vote because I usually do so after the first vote count

[Sir Tornado]

Well, normally I think voting for oneself is very scummy. However, considering this random voting stage, I will treat it as such and give him a benefit of doubt.

[Sir Tornado]

I'm just wondering how voting for myself is anti-town? If I'm mafia, why would I want to vote for myself? What would be the benefit of that?

If I were a Mafia, and everyone followed the same line of reasoning you did in your last post, the first thing I would have done is vote for myself. That is why it is anti-town.

[Sir Tornado]

I feel that it was a little weird to unvote the random vote while most people were still in the random voting stage, but I don't really find the fact that it was emphasized to be scummy.

I remove my random votes after the first vote count in every game since my second game, unless the votee gives me a reason to keep the vote.

[Sir Tornado]

But Amelia could have been following ST, possibly two scumbuddies that messed up when they were going to unvote.

Interesting theory.

But, what exactly do you mean by "scumbuddies that messed up when they were trying to unvote"? Elaborate please.

[Sir Tornado]

Isn't it possible that you and Amelia are scumbuddies (mafia partners) and messed up when you both unvoted and did it consecutively instead of maybe waiting? Seemed like you were leading Amelia to unvote. A possible strategy talked about in pregame?

1) Why would I need to "lead" someone so early on in the game? This was on the second page. If I were mafia, I would just have had to tell them to unvote at such and such time. The leading theory, can be accepted when you are deep in the middle of the game, but on second page?

2) What exactly would be gained from the whole exercise?

[Sir Tornado]

Ryan, you still haven't answered my question: Exactly what would be gained from the whole exercise of voting randomly and then unvoting the random votes together? I mean, that is a terribly bad move for the mafia, because it creates a connection between the two players, and if one of them is found scum, the other is suspected because of this. It's one of those things where you don't achieve anything, but can later prove to be costly. It's plain foolish to do this by early planning if you are scum.

Personally, I don't think the unvoting achieved anything specific. No one was on a bandwagon at that time. I don't know why AmeliaLi unvoted, but I prefer to unvote by random votes quickly in almost all the games I play.

[Sir Tornado]

Tornado: Let's take a breath........in.........now out. You seem to be giving lots of reasons why unvoting next to eachother would be "bad for the mafia" I never said you guys did I said you "could have messed up" I presented theories and you jumped on them from the "mafia point of view" I also presented that mafia when pressured can mess up early in games, did we catch you doing this already?

But, you still haven't answered my question: What could be achieved by the whole thing of unvoting together?

[Sir Tornado]

Tornado: Let's take a breath........in.........now out. You seem to be giving lots of reasons why unvoting next to eachother would be "bad for the mafia" I never said you guys did I said you "could have messed up" I presented theories and you jumped on them from the "mafia point of view" I also presented that mafia when pressured can mess up early in games, did we catch you doing this already?

But, you still haven't answered my question: What could be achieved by the whole thing of unvoting together?

Without getting annoyed, because you aren't reading my posts. I said I presented theories on what you two did, what you planned on doing is beyond me. Maybe by posting back to back you could say "well it was just random" which is what you are doing right now.

Ok, I get your point.

However, in reply to such a accusation/theory,

everyone

and not just the scum would claim it is random.

[Sir Tornado]

I agree with this completely. The four fastest ways to show up on my particular scum radar are to:
:arrow: say literally nothing (no posts at all);
:arrow: say nothing (post, but create posts with no game content in them);
:arrow: concentrate on the "guilty" instead of being specific about who might be guilty and who might not be guilty and why; and,
:arrow: to get into a defensive play mode and concentrate on defense to the exclusion of offense.

Generally, scum will do one of the last two things, but not both. Right now, Lowell, Nano, and klopyrev are doing the first; curiouskarmadog and Dral are doing the second; Indy's doing the third; and Amelia's doing the last.

True. I guess I would fall into the second category. But so far, there really isn't alot of content in the game.
Want a comment on klop? I agree he is just a newbie who didn't know what to do. Voting for himself was probably a joke.
Want a comment on ST and AmeliaLi? Seems like this has already been discussed too much.

I guess its possible in pre-game that ST sent a message to AmeliaLi and said "Hey, do a "random" vote on my early to throw people off. Just don't forget to unvote!" Then when AleliaLi saw ST's unvote, she thought "Oh shoot! I forgot to unvote!" and quickly unvoted.

But I doubt it.
I do agree that Ryan seems town and is actively searching for scum. Or does he just want us to think that??

There is a problem in that theory.

Post: 23

11 = 2139228131 = Fixed

Post 24

Vote: Sir Tornado

As far as I know, you can't manipulate the dice thing.

[Sir Tornado]

And yes I realize i just screwed up the whole dice thing. But It came out one so I went to the list and Sir Tornado was the frist one.

What do you mean by "screwed up the whole dice thing"?

[Sir Tornado]

I am totally opposed to lynch all lurkers strategy. We are here to lynch scum, not the lurkers. Lurkers are not always scum. In a game, all the scum can choose to be active early on, take control of the early proceedings and then say we should lynch all the lurkers, a viable strategy except that the lurkers turn out to be townies.

I would like to see lurkers post right now without needing to pressurize them. Pressurizing the lurkers makes matters worse, because when put under pressure, lurkers, even if they are townies begin to show scumtells, and this makes it easier for the scum to push for a townie mis-lynch.

[Sir Tornado]

AmeliaLi's "Lynch All Lurkers" strategy is horrid. Lurking =/= scum. A quiet townie is better than a dead townie.

Unvote
Vote: AmeliaLi

As much as I agree with what Nanosauromo says, I would like to add that a dead townie is also a confirmed townie. Quiet townie is certainly not. Would prefer not to lynch anyone until we get everyone to speak out.

vote klopyrev

!!! Can I vote for myself?

So I did a little metagaming on you and you've done this EXACT same thing in a game you are currently in. What's the story? A tactic or a tell? I apologize that I cannot link the thread but the game is ongoing so we can't talk about it (via the rules) but it's safe to say that this wasn't a "slip up" in this game, he's done it before.

unvote/vote: klopyrev

The more I look at that comment (and that I know that you've done it before) the more I just cant see how I shouldn't vote you. Anti town is exactly what a vote yourself move would be.

I've seen that other game too, and he does come across as scummy in that one... but I am deferring voting for him because it appears that voting for himself is his usual style of play (based on games he has played). Hell, he can't be scum in all games he plays, and if he votes for himself in all his games, it is still anti-town, but that doesn't make him a scum.

About the deadline... yeah, I agree with Dral about you thinking about that game when you said deadline being on Friday too... still, I concede that people started posting after it.

[Sir Tornado]

I'm just wondering how voting for myself is anti-town? If I'm mafia, why would I want to vote for myself? What would be the benefit of that?

This quote still screams a big, WHAT, from me. I think the exchange after that from klopy was enough to warrant "what are you doing" BTW, I did confirm in a pm to the mod 8)

I will metagame here a bit. In another game, Kloprev self voted, got lynched on page 2(!) and turned out to be a doctor.

So, my suspicions on him have lifted. I would also keep my eye on whoever tries to push for Kloprev lynch. He is the perfect candidate for the scum to make a scapegoat of and claim he seemed scummy if/when he turns out to be town the next day.

[Sir Tornado]

I'm just wondering how voting for myself is anti-town? If I'm mafia, why would I want to vote for myself? What would be the benefit of that?

This quote still screams a big, WHAT, from me. I think the exchange after that from klopy was enough to warrant "what are you doing" BTW, I did confirm in a pm to the mod 8)

I will metagame here a bit. In another game, Kloprev self voted, got lynched on page 2(!) and turned out to be a doctor.

So, my suspicions on him have lifted. I would also keep my eye on whoever tries to push for Kloprev lynch. He is the perfect candidate for the scum to make a scapegoat of and claim he seemed scummy if/when he turns out to be town the next day.

That is still no guarantee he's a town role in this setup. Anytime you vote yourself it's a rather stupid move.

I agree that it is stupid. But, stupid =/= scum.

Lynching a scum is better than lynching a townie who does stupid mistakes.

[Sir Tornado]

From my notes on AmeliaLi:

The

red

are the posts I think are scummy. The

bold red

are the posts I think are too scummy.

Green

posts are posts that I think makes someone pro-townie

Blue

posts (or parts of posts) are the posts with WIFOM arguments.

Page 1

1. Confirm
2. NCR
3.

Dice roll -- messed up

4. Random vote Sir Tornado

Page 2

5. NCR
6. Asks Klopyrev reason for voting self
7.

Follows Sir Tornado in unvoting the random vote

8.

Accepts Klopyrev's reason for self voting

Page 3

9.

Calls Klopyrev highly suspicious for self voting

10. NRC
11. Comments about no one giving her any reason to vote for
12.

Defends Kloprev for voting for self

-- contradiction to her post 8.
13. Agrees with MightyFireBall that there is no reason to vote for Klopyrev
14. Defends accusation from Ryan for following Sir Tornado by saying she randomly voted
15. Tries to defend her random vote.

Page 4

16. Tries to explain her "sitting around" and trying to observe.
17. NRC
18. Asks other people to post more often
19.

Says her unvoting her random voting after Sir T was a coincidence and then says she voted after seeing Sir T unvote and thinking "

that's a great idea

"

-- contradicting herself in the same post! (more on this later in the post)

Page 5

20. Defends herself for being defensive.

Seems to be trying not to act scummy

21. Edit for the last post
22. Calls Klopyrev observant.
23.

Realizes that she screwed up the dice for random vote

24. More on dice thing
25. Dice thing
26. NRC

Page 6

27. Asks Nanosauromo to contribute more
28.

Advocates the policy of getting rid of lurkers

because

"they aren't trully here anyways

29. Defends her earlier comment about getting rid of lurkers.
30. Backtracks and says

Threatening to Lynch them is also a good way to prod them....

31. Says she hates to throw votes around
32.

Agrees with Ryan about pressurising lurkers, but insists on lynching them.

33.

Says she was joking about lynching lurkers,

and says we need to pressurize them instead

Page 7

34. Agrees that she has been acting anti-town.

Page 8

nothing

Page 9

35. NRC
36. Accuses Klopyrev of bandwagoning her for her "lynch all lurkers" post and

says the scum could possibly make use of her as scapegoat.

37.

Comments on possibilities of Klopyrev having a power role

-- Fishing for power roles? From what I have seen of Klopyrev, he would come out telling everyone whether he has a power role or not (

DON'T DO THAT Klopyrev!) if he is not a scum after reading that post.

Which makes me happy with a

FOS AmeliaLi

Questions I want answered by AmeliaLi failing which FOS would turn into a vote:

1) In Post 44 you unvoted along with me. In it's explanation, you stated in Post 90 that your unvote was "coincidence". However, you say in the same post, that you unvoted after seeing me unvote. Now...

Coincidence = We just happened to be unvoting at the same time

Unvoting after seeing me unvote and thinking "

That's a good idea

" = Trying to follow me.

Two totally different things. What exactly were you doing?

2. In Post 46 you accepted Klopyrev's reasons for self voting. However, in Post 51 you say

it is highly suspicious

.

Why the sudden change of heart in the space of 5 posts and 212 minutes?

3. In Post 135 you say "

Let's lynch them

(lurkers)". Yet, quite soon, on being questioned by Ryan you change your position and say "

I was joking when I said lynch them

"?

This really doesn't make any sense at all to me. Sorry. I hope you can tell me how to make sense of it all.

[Sir Tornado]

Ah, well, there were a few formatting errors in the last post, a few unclosed bold tags.... (I should start previewing!) however, I missed out on one thing:

EBWOP: 2nd question to Amelia in my last post.

I wrote:

2. In Post 46 you accepted Klopyrev's reasons for self voting. However, in Post 51 you say

it is highly suspicious

There is another twist to this. Five posts after calling Klopyrev highly suspicious, Amelia writes defends his self voting saying:

Yeah... But he said he was sorta new so that might have to play a part in the whole voting-for-self brain lapse....

How can a person's opinions about someone change so rapidly twice in the space of 10 posts in an awfully quiet game which had no real content at that time?

[Sir Tornado]

Numenorean7

By too scummy, I mean scummier than normal scummy posts...

A rather crude explanation:

If normal scummy posts set alarm bells off in my brain, "too scummy" posts set alarm bells off even loudly...

Bah, you get the point, right?

[Sir Tornado]

To repeat another post: Townies often act more scummy than actual scum when heavily pressured. I believe that would be AmeliaLi's situation. Also, since when has Sir Tornado been analyzing things. This was the first time I've seen him act as a vigilant townie (though I may be wrong) I currently don't have a concrete opinion on who is scum and who is not. Since my vote is still safe on AmeliaLi(safe meaning she's not at -1), I'm keeping it there.

AmeliaLi was not under pressure when she posted the posts I questioned in my question 1 and 2. And, I agree that townies may act scummy when they are put under pressure. That is why I did not question Amelia about her posts before. Now, that the saga of "Amelia and coincidental(?) unvote" and "Amelia and lynch the lurkers post" is over, I can ask her questions as to why she made certain posts she made without her making any more posts under pressure and look scummy if she is town.

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP:

On rereading, I think the last line of my last post can be misinterpreted. It says:

I can ask her questions as to why she made certain posts she made without her making any more posts under pressure and look scummy if she is town.

The "without" is also extended to the "look scummy if she is town" part. So, it would mean:

I can ask her questions as to why she made certain posts she made without her making any more posts under pressure and

without

look

ing

scummy if she is town.

Just in case someone tries to nitpick too much with semantics.

[Sir Tornado]

Amelia please reply to my post. Actually, I was going to vote for you right now, but I will abstain doing so because Ryan has voted for you, and I don't want to lynch you.

[Sir Tornado]

Amelia please reply to my post. Actually, I was going to vote for you right now, but I will abstain doing so because Ryan has voted for you, and I don't want to lynch you.

Wait a second. If you believe her to be scum why wouldn't you place a vote on her head? Your vote isn't the 7th anyway, it's only the 6th.

It's the 6th? Couldn't bother to count it. Was in a hurry, and I saw your vote, did not vote because I wasn't sure of the count.

Anyway, I believe I have given Amelia enough time to answer. She hasn't, so:

Vote AmeliaLi

Vote subject to be taken off after (satisfactory) answers.

[Sir Tornado]

Mod: Can we have a prod on AmeliaLi

?

[Sir Tornado]

What do you think about everyone else Klopyrev?

[Sir Tornado]

Oh, and if anyone is still wondering about Klopyrev self vote, we can finally link that game in which he self voted too (and turned out to be town doctor): Newbie 403

Yeah, that game is over in 3 pages

[Sir Tornado]

This is my second game. Can I ask where you are going? Just curious.

this is your second game ever?

I'm interested in knowing this too.

Second game

ever

?

[Sir Tornado]

I'm basing my opinion on what I would do, which could be completely wrong.

So, are you saying that you would leave the game mid way if you were not scum?

I am undecided right now whether to upgrade Klopyrev to the "Scummy" list from "Towny making a LOT of goof ups" list right now. The only thing I don't understand is why he had voted for AmeliaLi when he thought she was a townie... I mean, I find this really weird. He votes for her inspite of thinking she is a townie, and then defends her? Sounds scummy to me, but if this is a scum tactic, then I really can't fathom what this would actually achieve.

What the heck,

FOS Klopyrev

Explain please.

I know that I said a few pages ago that I would have my eye on whomsoever tries to push the Klopyrev-wagon... but, now, I think I myself suspect him to me as possible scum. But, I also suspect Amelia right now, more so because of her disappearance and I can't figure out what Klopyrev was aiming to achieve by furthering Amelia-wagon, if both of them are scum. So, that seems to be a bit unlikely.

[Sir Tornado]

ST: It's almost like who can be the scummiest right now Klopy or AmeliaLi?

just throwing this out there for conversation, if both klop and Ameliali are town, what next?

Then, we are in big trouble. That's effectively 5 (assuming standard set up for 12 players) or 6 (if there is a SK) players being anti-town... that's half the town!

[Sir Tornado]

MOD: Could we please have a prod on AmeliaLi?

Then, we are in big trouble. That's effectively 5 (assuming standard set up for 12 players) or 6 (if there is a SK) players being anti-town... that's half the town!

I don't get this. If there were 5 Mafia, wouldn't that mean that we're in ly-lo? Are you assuming two scumgroups or something?

I did not say we had 5 mafia. I said we had 5 anti-town players, because that is the way I think Klopyrev. and AmeliaLi are acting right now, regardless of whether their roles are antitown or not.

[Sir Tornado]

While Amelia and Klop consider the questions there have been asked, I'll go after another person I think might be scummy:

Nanosauromo

.

Here are his last five posts, starting from the earliest.

What's VI and what's ly-lo?

VI = Village Idiot. A townie who acts so stupid it's scummy.

Lylo = Lynch or Lose. It means that if we don't lynch scum today, the town loses.

After page 7 AmeliaLi has been pretty quiet as well as not answering a few questions posed to her

Perhaps she's adopted the "Don't move! It can't see you if you don't move!" mentality.

Looking back on his posts, Klopyrev seems more stupid than scummy.

a repeat of his 154

Is nobody else worried about this? We're at post 212, and Nano's posted exactly four of them: one random vote, one "I'm here", and two "AmeliaLi OMG SCUM lynch all lurkers OBVIOUS!!!111!!"

I haven't posted much because I don't have much to post. Do you want me to start making stuff up?

Uh... I'm still here.

Should we expect a content post from you tonight than?

Nano's Thoughts:

AmeliaLi's "Lynch all Lurkers" strategy is a horrible Idea. Thus, my vote is on her.

The rest of the game seems like just noise.

Exactly what has Nanosauromo said? Notice, that he doesn't actually lurk. But, he doesn't really post anything substantial at all. This is how the scum behave. They try not to lurk, because then they would be put under pressure. However, at the same time, he doesn't say anything at all, so that he would be safe when we get to the later days and start rereading.

Sorry, doesn't fly with me. So, I am going to ask Nanosauromo to tell everyone what he thinks about each player right now.

[Sir Tornado]

Dammit!

Sorry, about the "quote" tag. Please consider my last post WITHOUT the outer "quote" tags please.

[Sir Tornado]

Questions I want answered by AmeliaLi failing which FOS would turn into a vote:

1) In Post 44 you unvoted along with me. In it's explanation, you stated in Post 90 that your unvote was "coincidence". However, you say in the same post, that you unvoted after seeing me unvote. Now...

Coincidence = We just happened to be unvoting at the same time

Unvoting after seeing me unvote and thinking "

That's a good idea

" = Trying to follow me.

Two totally different things. What exactly were you doing?

2. In Post 46 you accepted Klopyrev's reasons for self voting. However, in Post 51 you say

it is highly suspicious

.

Why the sudden change of heart in the space of 5 posts and 212 minutes?

3. In Post 135 you say "

Let's lynch them

(lurkers)". Yet, quite soon, on being questioned by Ryan you change your position and say "

I was joking when I said lynch them

"?

This really doesn't make any sense at all to me. Sorry. I hope you can tell me how to make sense of it all.

1) I saw you unvote and I’d rather not leave a random vote. Your unvote triggered mine.
2) I wasn’t changing my heart, I was merely stating the different reasons why he might do such a thing.
3) I knew that I would never be able to get everyone together on the same boat to lynch the lukers. It was more trying to get people out to have more content.

Hmm... after not being here for several days, I find AmeliaLi at -1. That's interesting. I still have no opinion what-so-ever, but I feel like I should withdraw my vote not wanting to lynch a townie just trying to defend herself. However, I feel that AmeliaLi is the best candidate right now for scum, so I'm just going to keep it as it is. Wasn't this post completely pointless?

And the question is, when I turn out to be a scapegoat for all the scum out there, then what happens? The scum has their way and have effectively wrapped the town around their finger.

FOS Klop

I'm sorry I'm undecisive! I'll try to be more decisive when there is something more concrete to go on.

I still don't fully believe that AmeliaLi is scum, but she's the best candidate at the moment.

I guess I'll never be fully certain that someone is scum in this game.

You just keep saying that without any reasoning. Give us a well thought out reason on all of your posts. Don’t just throw something that has been bandwagoned to death, and give us something new.

And that’s my wall of words. (For now)

Unvote

Thank you for answering my questions.

What is your scumlist right now?

[Sir Tornado]

Nanosauromo has only posted enough to not be called a serious lurker.

That's it! That's why he is the more dangerous as a scum than Klopyrev. Everyone is onto you and Klopyrev, but not him. Not a single FOS. Still, I am inclined to buy his explanation for his behavior and give him some more time to form his opinions and join in.

ST you havn't said much either except for asking me those questions. You are one of the few that I have really no opinion on yet.

I disagree. I am probably the fourth most frequent poster in this game, after Ryan, you and possibly Numenorean or Klopyrev (I haven't counted the posts, but that is my general feeling).

Ryan is starting to make me nervous. I'm not sure what he was thinking in 328, but the reason why I havn't voted yet is because I don't have a solid opinon on anyone yet.

Ryan is usually aggressive. If you ever find he is not being aggressive, then that is the time to ring alarm bells.

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado is also scum, because he focuses too much on lynching a single person, rather than discovering who the Mafia are. He's too quick to form opinion.

Interesting.

You call asking 3 questions to someone after analysing 25 of their posts "too quick to form an opinion"?

And, if I am "focusing too much on lynching a single person" why am I even trying to question all three of you, Amelia and Nanosauromo?

Are you telling me you are "discovering who the mafia are"? Kindly enlighten me as to how.

[Sir Tornado]

Here's your second post with actual content, but at this point, who you think is scum is irrelevant to me. Your attack on me is humorous in its illogic, though. "Saying nothing" and "lurking" are two entirely different things. You are an expert at saying nothing. You've said the most nothing of anyone in the game so far with the possible exception of Lowell. Lowell has been lurking and I notice he didn't come up in your "list" at all. I also never said that I'm on board with the lynch-all-lurkers strategy, no matter how much you might try to spin it that way. I said saying literally nothing was one of four things that would cause people to show up on my radar, not things that would cause me to vote or not vote. Your entire "argument" borders on an ad hominem attack, quite the little scum-tell. I'm amazed you haven't drawn more votes.

QFT.

Nanosauromo: Can we finally have some sort of proper response from you? If you feel nothing is worth commenting about, then I'll make it a bit easier:

What do you think of:

1) Me and AmeliaLi getting attacked by Ryan early on and then being defensive.

2) AmeliaLi's comments about lurkers

3) Klopyrev's suspicion of CuriousKarmaDog (CKD), Ryan and Me


4) Jester's two posts on the last page.

5) Lowell's comments on the last page.

6) Numenorean7's scumlist and his general play so far.

Fail to answer these questions in reasonable period of time satisfactorily and I vote for you.

By reasonable period of time, I mean 18 hours.

By "satisfactorily" I mean answers which are not one-lined and echoing someone else's comments.

Lastly: You have given us your scum list. How about your townie list?

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP: That quote in my last page was by Jester and he had directed it at Nanosauromo.

[Sir Tornado]

Relatively scummy-looking. "Lurking in plain sight" is how I'd describe her.

I'd like to hear what she has to say, though. And I don't like putting people so close to lynch before others have had to even take a stand.

I am fairly new here, so would someone explain to me what "Lurking in plain sight" means?

[Sir Tornado]

Thanks for answering Nano.

Sir Tornado: I like that you took time to openly quiz one of the players in this game BUT you never threaten to vote somebody if they don't do something. I'm surprised more people didn't FoS you for that comment. Also post 385 is not true. We were both just in a game together and that term was thrown around quite a bit and you NEVER asked what it meant than, why now? What do you think of Lowell being put under heavy suspicion? Is he a good candidate for a Day 1 lynch?

He had only about one (or possibly 2, I did not check) vote(s) on him. And, when I vote people for not posting/lurking, that vote is generally temporary, taken off right after they start posting/replying. It was not as if I was putting Nano on a -1 or even -2 for that matter.

However, your comment is not exactly matching up to some of your earlier actions. I remember asking Amelia some 3 questions and threatening to vote her if she did not answer them. I was asked, by you nonetheless:

Amelia please reply to my post. Actually, I was going to vote for you right now, but I will abstain doing so because Ryan has voted for you, and I don't want to lynch you.

Wait a second. If you believe her to be scum why wouldn't you place a vote on her head? Your vote isn't the 7th anyway, it's only the 6th.

Now, that vote on AmeliaLi would have been exactly the same category of vote I would have put on Nano had he not replied. Yet, right now, you say that I should have been FOSed, whilst back then, you actually asked me why I wasn't putting vote on her. Furthermore, by putting a vote on her, I was putting her on -1, whilst here, it was just 2 votes overall on Nano.

Why double standards for voting on two different players?

[Sir Tornado]

ST: What I didn't understand is why you would threaten to place a vote on somebody if they didn't post to your satisfaction, that is what I had a problem with.

I defined satisfactorily, essentially at a bare minimum (more than a single line post). It was merely to get him to post something more than one-liners. At least I can expect that?

[Sir Tornado]

Klopy seriously, did you even read what I typed or just comment on how Sir Tornado reacted to it? He threatened to put a vote on somebody if they didn't post to his (Sir Tornado's) satisfaction. My argument was that Sir Tornado's satisfaction and others satisfaction can be different and that's a real stretch to throw a comment like that out there. You don't threaten to vote somebody, if you feel they are scum you VOTE THEM, not just because they don't answer a question to your satisfaction. Does anyone have a wall handy cause I'm about to bang my head against it?

"Up to my satisfaction" was defined as "post anything more than one line".

Would you call that a "stretch"? In fact, I defined that in the same post where I threatened to vote for him. The post, essentially meant that I would vote for him if he generates another one liner reply to all my questions. Are you selectively reading my posts?

[Sir Tornado]

Whatever his role is he should have played a newbie game (with 7 players) and got his feet wet, cause Klopy, you are doing nothing in this thread but further suspicion on what role you actually are, and for the sake of the rest of us townies,

I really hope you don't have a power role, if so we are in big trouble.

Interesting. Did anyone else notice that AmeliaLi said the same thing in her Post 211?

If you are too lazy to click the above link, I will quote it for you:

Yeah... If he is scum, the town might actually have an advantage.

If he has a power role: Have fun killing us off, scum

I will say, as I said to her, that this goes into the "fishing for power roles" in my notes, and would tell Klop NOT to reply to that post or any further posts of this nature. With others, I would not have minded much, but Klopyrev looks like a person who would say whether he has a power role or not on being asked too much about it.

This, to scum would be very beneficial. If he has a power role, they could NK him. If he doesn't (and if he is town) they could leave him alive to confuse us into mislynching him someday.

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP: The first post quoted in my last post was from Ryan.

[Sir Tornado]

A Jester? In a normal Mini?

I feel that is quite improbable. I don't think mods usually put roles like Jesters in a normal game. In fact, I have never seen a Jester put into a normal game (in the games I have read here that is). The only games I have seen it is in Open Games (Jester Mafia).

However, if klopyrev is a Jester, it would do well for the vig (I am assuming we have a vig) to get him on N1. We need to have some discussion before this though. I just think that there wouldn't be a Jester in a normal mini. For the moment, I have my money on him being either a very crazy mafia or a misguided townie, leaning a bit towards townie.

[Sir Tornado]

Vote: Klopyrev

Note: I'm going to be camping in the middle of nowhere this weekend (leaving thrusday) So no comp for me.

I find this a bit suspicious. You put a vote on someone and then leave for a short vacation? It essentially means that your vote stays on that person for a fair bit of time. If the person does get lynched in the ensuing period, you can claim that you weren't there and not responsible.

[Sir Tornado]

Lol... Nice guess, but no, I'm not a Jester. If I was a Jester, I would have caused greater havoc a long time ago.

ROFL!

I'm now convinced that klopyrev is the Jester role.

That is not possible:[quote="The Wiki article "Normal Game""]A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Jester is definitely not a normal role. It is only used in open setup games. It just wouldn't be fair to the town otherwise.[/quote]

QFT

I just metagamed and found this game he was in

That game has already been mentioned. ST linked to it in post 276, and I mentioned it in 285. I actually thought klopyrev looked rather newbie-town in that game: I'm not sure why they lynched him. Here are his posts:

Hello, everyone!!! I'm ready to play my first game:P Since I don't want to be labeled as mafia, I'm not going to do a random vote first. Someone else start. Make sure that random vote isn't me, though.

Random.org says:

66 87 57 31 64
47 25 63 20 86
19 96 28 16 43
75 3 79 58 41
68 21 42 1 82

Can I vote for myself??? Hmm... nobody voted for ThaiBoxerShorts
yet... So:

vote ThaiBoxerShorts

I'm sorry. I'm just enjoying messing everyone up. I'll be more helpful from now on. And like you said, we're not even off the first page yet. We have no idea who is Mafia and who is Town. I'm just doing random things, because I have nothing else to say. Does that take care of your accusation, EmpTyger? As for Nerdling's: Who says I'm nervous?

Hmm... How about we analyze EmpTyger's behaviour? If he is Town, he has been trying to catch who he thinks it scum since the beginning of the game. Since he thinks its me, he's been blaming me for a while now. However, even after I tried to explain myself, he's still trying to refute everything I say. This makes me think that he's a Scum. If he's scum, then as soon as he saw me as a target, he latched on and has tried to get me lynched as soon as possible. This really makes me think that he's scum.

FoS EmpTyger

My first two posts were as random as I tried to make them, because I was bored. And since I already read other games and they had people using random.org to make their first votes, I just decided to generate a list of numbers for people to use:P. Anyway, my FoS for EmpTyger is not a vote because I still think that he may actually be town, because some of his arguments make sense. I don't remember why I voted for TBS in the first place. As for my actual vote:

Unvote

WIFOM stands for Wine In Front of Me. Go to the MafiaScum forums and read about it. I just had the same question answered in another game I'm playing.
Anyway, can someone put me of -1? I don't want the town to lose a player so early in the game. You're blaming me only for my random comments.

Hmm... following a line of thought: I'm at -1. If there was a mafia left, they would have killed me already. Therefore, isn't it possible that both mafia are already voting for me? EmpTyger still has my FoS, but I'll put my vote on Nerdling.

Vote Nerdling

I get a distinctly different flavor from his posts in 403 (especially his last four) than I get from his behavior this game. Sure, there isn't much to go on, but he demonstrated some good thinking regarding EmpTyger, and he didn't do anything that scummy. Also notice that he never self-voted, just asked if he could. I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have voted for klopyrev in 403. Yes, hindsight is 20-20, but I just don't find anything scummy in his play. Transmission was very wrong to hammer.

IMO, klop has been acting like newbie-scum in this game, and he didn't in that game.

Reading from an outsiders POV, I couldn't stop laughing as I read that. Totally hilarious.

However, if you notice that Klopyrev's style has changed a bit even in this game. Early in the game he appeared totally random and rather confused. Now... well, he still appears totally random and rather confused but less so. And, he has made one or two correct points. I take it as a sign of gaining a bit of experience?

Also, I feel we are being a bit rude towards him...

I also seriously suspect him being an alt of someone who is trying a new style of play... but no evidence there.

[Sir Tornado]

My scum list, at the moment consists of:

Nanosauromo
AmeliaLi
Lowell
Klopyrev

I don't like the lurking Nano and Lowell is doing. Although AmeliaLi is in my scum list, I would not like to vote her off today. The only reason for this is that she, unlike the other two is actually posting quite regularly, and if she is the scum, then we are likely to get more information about the other scum from her. The way Nano and Lowell are playing, I don't think we can actually get much information from them if they are scum.

Klopyrev... well, he's fourth in my list, but I am not too sure about him, for the reasons well documented in my previous posts.

My townie list consists of:

Ryan
Jester
Numenorean7
MightyFireBall
(and myself of course)

CKD, well, I really have no opinion about him as of now. I will have to read his posts again and look into Jester's accusations about him. But, I don't think there is any serious case against him, not as serious as there is against Nano, Lowell and Amelia anyway.

Am I missing 2 people? Whoever they are, I am suspicious of them for not having posted much.

Post!

[Sir Tornado]

If we had a deadline right now, I would support a lynch of either klopyrev or Nano. I'd rather not lynch AmeliaLi, Lowell, or Indy, but I wouldn't go all out to defend them either.

That sounds tremendously scummy!

Oh yeah, found out my missing people. Indy and Red_c.

I insist on hearing from both of you soon.

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP:

The quoted stuff in my last post was from Numenorean's post 450.

[Sir Tornado]

That sounds tremendously scummy!

Please explain.

A townie has to try his best to ensure that a mis-lynch doesn't take place. Your post gave me the impression that you thought the three of them were townie, but you were still willing to stand on the sidelines and watch them be lynched.

Something doesn't seem right in that stance to me.

[Sir Tornado]

Of course, this deadline discussion is purely hypothetical. I personally don't see the need for a deadline for at least 5 more pages.

A deadline? I have seen deadlines being imposed only if there is a lull in discussion... never seen a deadline being imposed if a town can't come up with a lynch if there is a lot of discussion taking place. So, if we keep up discussing, we don't have to fear the deadline at all. There is no reason to rush in the lynch because of the fear of a deadline. Of course, I haven't seen many games here... am I correct in my interpretation of the deadline rule?

[Sir Tornado]

Around post 250, AmeliaLi was at -3. ryan, whose vote was on me, saw this and decided to put AmeliaLi on -2. This was post 254. This was note very suspicious by itself. However, this was how the game continued from then on. Ryan asked why Sir Tornado didn't vote on AmeliaLi when he found her suspicious. He urged him to vote on her to put her on -1. This was in post 257. Right after that, Sir Tornado voted for her and put her on -1.

I think I made a mistake by putting her on -1, and that Ryan was wrong to ask me to do so.

It is always dangerous to put a heavily scummy looking player on -1 so soon in the game for the purposes of pressurizing them. In my newbie game, a guy hammered a player who was looking tremendously scummy on 4th page after I put her on -1 for pressurizing her to post. She did turn up scum, but we have no further leads as of day 2 because she couldn't answer accusations directed at her.

This happened after the AmeliaLi saga in this game, so I think now, that I shouldn't have put AmeliaLi on -1 in the first place. It was too risky, and gave the scum the perfect opportunity to hammer her if she was a scum, and claim townie for the rest of the game on the basis of that successful lynch (not saying it proves she is not a scum or anything like that though).

[Sir Tornado]

Nothing seems amiss about lowell.

On the contrary everything seems to be amiss about both Lowell AND you.

[Sir Tornado]

But you aren't exactly lurking. Lowell may have RL problems (in which case, I think he should ask for a replacement) but you seem to be here all the time, and are yet not exactly contributing to discussions.

And, lack of posting actual content in your posts is scummy.

Here is an example:

Holy quadrupal post, Batman!

Explain that post. Also explain what exactly you achieved by posting it. Explain how it can help the town catch scum. Don't you think it would have helped the town if you had actually commented on Klopyrev's post instead?

I am not saying posting such kind of posts is bad. But posting

only

those kind of posts is bad.

Also, I don't like the fact that you post some one line posts the moment someone attacks you or votes for you and then stop posting. If you want to post only occasionally, look at Jester. He posts not more than 3 or 4 posts per page. But the posts that he does post are concise, to the point, informative and generally carry excellent analysis for the entire game, and are each has many times the content of all your posts put together.

[Sir Tornado]

Klopy why do you send off so many bells and whistles when I read your posts, yet I still don't think your 100% scum, but you might be 50% since your posts don't help the town a lot and may in the near future send us off on a tangent.

And you?

[Sir Tornado]

The only problem with this theory is that this is klopyrev's second game, and he acted like a newbie in his other game, too. I suppose klopyrev could be an alt for some more experienced player?

QFT

I actually mentioned this possibility myself at the end of my post 439.

[Sir Tornado]

I think Nano is acting much scummier than Klopyrev. Like I said before, Klopyrev is acting scummy by contributing scummy posts. This gives us a chance to find out his scum mates tomorrow if he is scum. But if Nano is a scum, we have no chance at all. Nada. He just isn't speaking anything.

The same thing goes for Indy, who is giving links to Numenorean's post and saying they are also his views. That, IMO is scummy.

Also, if Klopyrev is scum, it will become apparent tomorrow. Same thing goes for AmeliaLi. I'd keep both of them around for atleast another day even though one of them might just turn up scum.

For today, I would suggest Nano.

[Sir Tornado]

Oh, and I would also add Lowell to the first category of players. He has started posting fairly regularly in the other games I am in with him. I expect more from him in this game too.

[Sir Tornado]

I think Nano is acting much scummier than Klopyrev. Like I said before, Klopyrev is acting scummy by contributing scummy posts. This gives us a chance to find out his scum mates tomorrow if he is scum. But if Nano is a scum, we have no chance at all. Nada. He just isn't speaking anything.

The same thing goes for Indy, who is giving links to Numenorean's post and saying they are also his views. That, IMO is scummy.

Also, if Klopyrev is scum, it will become apparent tomorrow. Same thing goes for AmeliaLi. I'd keep both of them around for atleast another day even though one of them might just turn up scum.

For today, I would suggest Nano.

Unless Klopy is scummy enough that his scummates throw him to the wolves and help lynch him, which is also possible in the case of AmeliaLi.

For all I know, that may be already happening.

[Sir Tornado]

It's a theory as I can't say I've been in a game with two players who say they aren't scummy but are BOTH showing plenty of first day scum tells. The chances they are both scum is very small (or they are very brave to be that much in the spotlight)

You are making it sound as if Klopyrev and AmeliaLi are being in this spotlight voluntarily.

[Sir Tornado]

Klopy strikes me as lashing out in all directions, an accused townie oft tends to be a bit more calm, as they have not done anything suspicious so it will be hard to lynch them. Klopy, to me, seems to be trying to shirk aside any bit of blame he can and casts it in several directions. I just recently played a game where I was head Mafia and I was lynched first round. I found myself behaving much like he is now and that is my motivator for my vote against him.

I would say that it depends on person to person. It could be something, but it doesn't actually prove anything.

And, I agree with Jester's 520. And, ryan, (and Numenorean)

you have

been trying to get people to vote Klopyrev just as I and Jester are trying to get people vote for Nanosauromo.

Vote Nanosauromo

He is the person I am happy to vote for today.

[Sir Tornado]

Jester, upon reading your analysis of Nano's behaviour this game, I'm inclined to place a vote on him. I'll give him some time to respond, though. If he doesn't have a satisfactory response by the end of the next page, then I'll vote for him. A

FoS: Nano

will do for now.

MFB: I have already tried that approach. Nanosauromo will post a one line reply and then not post anything till someone attacks him or FOSes him.

[Sir Tornado]

Jester, what do you mean when you say "Klopyrev is probably insane"? I have seen you write that a few times.

[Sir Tornado]

Lynch All Lurkers=major blips on my scumdar. Nanosauromo, I'd also like to know how I've "gone after you too much?"

That was another thing I saw. I think in the last couple posts, you were very adament in saying that there are three people who you think need to be lynched. Yeah, Nano, you are on his list, but he's more concerned right now on offing me and Klopy-boy unless someone comes up with a better reason other than you aren't here.

WIFOM

How is that WIFOM?

[Sir Tornado]

You put the hammer down on Nano, unless my personal vote-count is off, so as soon as Kison notices, we're in night. If I'm right about Nano and I'm right about Lowell (not certain by any means, but he's really setting off my radar right now) and were one of their scum-mates, I'd definitely kill me to shut me up. Wink

Of course, it's still possible that I'm totally wrong about one or both.

I can't even begin to start saying how horrible this post was. Not disbelieving Nano, but the later part: "I'd definitely kill me to shut me up". What was that supposed to mean? It appears that you were planning to set up a Lowell lynch if you were not NKed. It leads into a territory full of WIFOMs.

Ryan: Why did you hammer before everyone had got the chance to review the claim?

[Sir Tornado]

Right now, Ryan AND Lowell both appear suspicious to me. Lowell because just about the only thing he has done in this game is to help get Nano lynched. Other contributions? Zilch. Ryan because he hammered Nano after maintaining for almost the entire day that his suspect list for the day consisted only of AmeliaLi and Klopyrev. I mean, if ryan is scum, he would know Nano was telling the truth AND he could see that no one actually believed that claim. He might have figured out that he could easily join the bandwagon and hammer by attacking his claim. And, if anyone asked -- hey, everyone was doing it. Nothing better than getting rid of the doc on day 1 eh?

FOS: Lowell

FOS: ryan

[Sir Tornado]

CKD: I genuinely missed Num7 voting for Nano. I thought he was after Klop at that time (although he had mentioned earlier that he would go for either Klop or Nano). I got that impression because Num7 was attacking Klop for some time before I made that post.

And, in I would say that Nano and Lowell were not quite similar on D1. Nano was here, but he wasn't posting. Lowell was away, due to which he was not posting. But, now, I think the "away" thing is really getting a bit out of hand. Lowell, please post or ask for a replacement or be prepared to get lynched, because you have a lot to answer here.

You could start with explaining your (opportunistic) vote on Nano.

And ryan, you still haven't explained your WIFOM comment on D1, which has been pointed out by no less than 3 people.

[Sir Tornado]

Than I guess I was just educated. I've always played that WIFOM stood for "whine in front of me" and I thought there was a bunch of whining and woah is me chat in that post.

I know what WIFOM stands for, thank you very much. But the point is, that it was not WIFOM (and, both Num7 and Jester agreed with me on that point)

[Sir Tornado]

Numenorean7, what are you getting at? A ryan-Klopy-AmeliaLi mafia?

[Sir Tornado]

Sorry about that. I misunderstood this:

In fact, AmeliaLi never mentioned the WIFOM mistake, she just said, "I'm not whining". It was Jester who pointed out the error.

as accusing AmeliaLi... I get what you are saying now.

[Sir Tornado]

CKD: I think you are misrepresenting Jester when you are saying he voted for Nano and left Lowell alone. The thing is, that they were guilty of different types of lurking on D1. Nano was lurking in plain sight, while Lowell was simply not here. That was precisely why I voted for Nano in the first place too. So, your accusation of Jester for voting and analysing Nano more than Lowell is a bit unfair.

[Sir Tornado]

CKD: I think you are misrepresenting Jester when you are saying he voted for Nano and left Lowell alone. The thing is, that they were guilty of different types of lurking on D1. Nano was lurking in plain sight, while Lowell was simply not here. That was precisely why I voted for Nano in the first place too. So, your accusation of Jester for voting and analysing Nano more than Lowell is a bit unfair.

ST, do you feel like Jester is misrepresenting me with his facts?

The only part where I see that he did misrepresent you was:

Virtually every sentence in this summation is a lie. Here is a link to my 371 for those that want to read it:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=371
Again, I voted for Nano and held my vote there not because he was lurking. Nano wasn't lurking. He was posting, and rather frequently by that time. But his posts were full of nothing. The fact that you think Lowell and Nano were doing the same thing is simply not true.

You've been after Lowell since your post 131, and have never said why. If anyone here is looking to lynch lurkers, it's you, not me. Every time I spot someone lurking, I've been asking them to post/participate, not voting for them.

I don't think the sentence

"Virtually every sentence in this summation is a lie"

is correct on his part. The points Jester makes (explaining why he chose Nano over Lowell), I agree with.

[Sir Tornado]

Mod: May we have a prod on Klopyrev and Indy?

Klop hasn't posted since sunday and that seems odd...

I agree with this. It also makes him look scummy in my books. He has not actually lurked in this game and was fairly active in the game, albeit behaving like a VI and dropping scum tells right before D1 ended. His absence indicates the likelihood of his possible scum partners having told him to stop posting much lest he gave them away.

[Sir Tornado]

Yet you put 3 (if not 4) on your list and you aren't sure about any of them? I find that real interesting and non committal.

How is that non-committal? Only scum can make their scum-list with 100% certainty this early in the game. Can you name 3 people who you can say are 100% scum?

[Sir Tornado]

What would y'all think of a Lowell, Indy, and Klopyrev scumgroup?

Nothing in life is that easy!

[Sir Tornado]

Yet you put 3 (if not 4) on your list and you aren't sure about any of them? I find that real interesting and non committal.

How is that non-committal? Only scum can make their scum-list with 100% certainty this early in the game. Can you name 3 people who you can say are 100% scum?

THIS early in the game? We're 28 freakin pages into this game with two dead already, if you think this is an early game you need to be replaced with somebody who is actually keeping up.

All right then. State 3 people who are 100% scum according to you.

[Sir Tornado]

100% sure would mean that you are positive that who you are voting for is scum

100% correct would mean you know exactly who the scum are, and the only way that is possible is if you are scum (or a hell of a good guesser)

This is ridiculous. There is absolutely no difference between being "positive" and "correct" except the fact that people are "positive" before the lynch, and "correct" (or incorrect) AFTER the lynch takes place. Your post basically means

"I am positive who the scum is, but I am not sure if I will be correct"

, which is nonsense and seems to me like a circumlocution of saying

"I think so and so is scum, but I am not sure who the scum is"

, exactly the same thing you called Amelia out for. If the lynch goes wrong, you can always claim that you were "positive" but not necessarily "correct" about the lynch. I see this as an escape hatch to escape responsibility if a mis-lynch takes place. Very non-committal and scummy as hell.

And, we don't "guess" who scum are. We decide that based on their behaviour and voting patterns.

If you seem to be guessing, then guess what? I think you are the scum.

Vote: Ryan

We'll take out Lowell tomorrow.

Klop has been rather quiet AFTER the night session, it was brought up by another poster that his partners may have told him to tone it down, wouldn't shock me one bit.

Lowell also strikes me as scum and somebody that would have told Klopy to shut up, to me he's the best choice for a lynch today.

That still isn't enough to help me vote for someone.

I have a feeling it's gonna either be lowell or Klop

.....

You sure change your mind alot don't ya?

Mmm these last couple posts have made me change my mind yes.

These last couple posts? Are you reading or just going along with the scum in this game? I can't believe that you are still in this game, how this town let you survive Day 1 is beyond me. There are just enough players in this game playing stupid to annoy the crap outta me. Do what ya gotta do scum, looks like you have this game in hand right now anyway. I'm tired of trying to prove my pro towniness in this game to a few idiots who don't know a pro town player from a scum player. Vote me off and lose the game, enough said, I'm not posting again until we are in Day 3 and if I'm alive, great, if not, so long.

Meh, I've heard enough from you to convince me of your scumminess. You can come back to make a "Go Scum" post tomorrow after you die.

[Sir Tornado]

If you seem to be guessing, then guess what? I think you are the scum.

Vote: Ryan

We'll take out Lowell tomorrow.

something about these series of statements bothered me. But I cant put my finger on it. If we lynch Ryan today, why would we lynch Lowell tomorrow? Ryan pretty much wants to lynch Lowell today,

sooo, if Ryan turns out to be scum, then why would we turn around and lynch Lowell? I don’t think that Ryan would be distancing himself from Lowell, yet and in this manner.

If Ryan is town, then we will take out Lowell tomorrow? I mean that would make sense, phrasing and timing of those statements are odd. Why did you vote Ryan, then say we will take out Lowell tomorrow? The one big reason we would even consider Lowell tomorrow is if Ryan was town….

It is almost like you are saying you know that ryan is town…and when we hang a townie(ryan), tomorrow we will pursue the one he was going after in the first place…

Please explain what you meant here…

Just in case.

Unvote

CKD: Check my posts at the start of this day, where I FOSed Lowell and Ryan. I am convinced that they are most likely to be scum, based on the part both of them played in getting Nano lynched. Ryan had a rather lame excuse (I thought) and so far as I know, Lowell hasn't yet justified his reason to vote Nano at all. None of them actually accused Nano much before the final bandwagon, which they joined very much opportunistically, and ready to put blame for the mis-lynch on Jester and me (mostly Jester) who had pressed hardest for Nano lynch yesterday.

It was only a matter of which among them I would choose today, and Ryan's attack on Amelia by asking her why she wasn't sure on the scum, when later it turned out he himself was not sure about them and his asking me to replace out if I am not sure of who are scum after 29 pages of discussion and his subsequent threat to stop taking part in any more day 2 discussions convinced me to vote him before Lowell. It all is very scummy.

Ryan calling for Lowell's lynch doesn't really make much difference... bussing I presume, which is quite fashionable, and Lowell (along with Klopy and Indy) are exactly the kind of scum who I expect to be bussed... I will not really base much on who is on whose wagon today, if those wagons are Indy, Klop or Lowell wagons. It is, in fact quite likely that the scum ARE on the Lowell-wagon if Lowell comes out scum.

I also want to hear from for Klop, Lowell, Gatorguy, Jester, and Indy’s replacement!!!!!!

QFT.

[Sir Tornado]

Sorry. My Vote stays on Lowell. I'm pretty sure he's scum:

Some Questions:

CKD: Do you think Jester or Ryan is scum? Or Both?

Jester: Who are you most suspicsious of?

please read the thread.....dont post just to post.

FoS: CKD. This is somewhat anti-town, not NEARLY enough to sway my vote but enough for an FoS

(BTW Your answer is both)

This is incredibly stupid.

[Sir Tornado]

If CKD Wanted to help the town, wouldn't he give me his answer?

If you wanted to help the town, wouldn't you post more?

[Sir Tornado]

CKD: Check my posts at the start of this day, where I FOSed Lowell and Ryan. I am convinced that they are most likely to be scum, based on the part both of them played in getting Nano lynched. Ryan had a rather lame excuse (I thought) and so far as I know, Lowell hasn't yet justified his reason to vote Nano at all. None of them actually accused Nano much before the final bandwagon, which they joined very much opportunistically,

So you think that ryan’s attacks on Lowell is a distancing maneuver, then. What is your take on Gatorguy, hasn’t he done much of the same that Ryan and Lowell have been doing? Where does he stand on your scum list?

Gatorguy is very difficult to place. He seems to be another VI in Klopyrev mould... it is hard to say whether a VI is a town or scum.

It was only a matter of which among them I would choose today, .

so this means, that you are leanging toward a Jester, ryan, and Lowell lynch right now, right?

No. I think Jester is a townie in fact.

, and ready to put blame for the mis-lynch on Jester and me (mostly Jester) who had pressed hardest for Nano lynch yesterday.

I am leaning toward that as well (agree with Ryan on this point). Jester came out and said he was 100% certain and never let up on Nano once, and didn’t even once consider his claim.

To be honest, there wasn't much time to consider the claim. I did not even SEE the claim. He was on something like -3 when I last checked, and was lynched the next morning.

I still feel like there is a Jester/Lowell connection…I also feel like there is a Gatorguy/ryan connection….even a slightly small Ameliali/ST connection…

Any thoughts on those pairings? Anyone?

Well, I am tired of explaining that that incident on D1 was totally a coincidence, atleast on my side. Either ways, the only way to look at that incident (if you don't think it is a coincidence, which I think it is) is that Amelia was following me (scum can tend to associate with a townie early in the game sometimes). I mean, I can't help it if I unvote and then someone else follows me. It doesn't make me more scummy. I feel that that incident had been blown out of proportion by Ryan.

[Sir Tornado]

Vote Lowell

My other suspect on D2.

Chances are good that all the scum were voting to lynch the townies on both days. So, all 3 scum should be in both vote lists for the person that got lynched. The following people appeared on both lists:

Numenorean7, Sir Tornado, Lowell

But, you forget, I had been voting at the beginning of both the wagons. I did not join the bandwagon in an opportunistic manner... I was second (I think) on Nano; and third on ryan, both the times for genuine reasons.

The case which you are pointing out (all the scum on both the mis-lyches) would have been true especially if the scum joined the wagon late... besides, Mr. Stoofer's first law is mainly valid for C9s, rather than minis.

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote

I just realised I put Lowell on -1... not good this early in the day at lylo.

[Sir Tornado]

Just throwing this out there, so I can get shouted down and voted like hell for it. Or at least we can talk it over.

I think we should consider a cop claim at this point, especially if (as I agree with) it's lynch or lose. Since some people clearly have itchy trigger fingers, a cop reveal might help... clarify things.

Scenario 1: Cop has 2 innocents- That will give us THREE confirmed innocent (including cop) which is pretty large percentage. 3/5 remaining are likely scum, which is much better odds than flying blind right now.

Scenario 2: Cop has a guilty- Even better.

Yes, I realize this is a death sentence for the cop. I don't care. I'll take my chances with several confirmed innocents and no more cop tomorrow over a cop.

vote tornado

Hmm... way to backtrack. If you're so sure I'm scum, why the fear of putting me at lynch-1?

We are at LyLo. You cannot claim Cop at LyLo, especially with the doctor dead.

[Sir Tornado]

Don't scream at me for this statement: Day three, IMO, is the best day for a no lynch when we've had some terrible lynches...

You're scum. We no-lynch today, we lose the game. There must be 2 scum out there, and unless we have a vig (which we don't, otherwise I would have expected Lowell, or some other scummy person to be shot by now), we will lose if we no lynch and Mafia get their NK. The very idea of no-lynch in a ly-lo is scummy as hell. And, I think Lowell is your scum partner strongly after that post.

[Sir Tornado]

You're scum. We no-lynch today, we lose the game.

There must be 2 scum out there

, and unless we have a vig (which we don't, otherwise I would have expected Lowell, or some other scummy person to be shot by now), we will lose if we no lynch and Mafia get their NK. The very idea of no-lynch in a ly-lo is scummy as hell. And, I think Lowell is your scum partner strongly after that post.

EBWOP: On second thoughts, I think there must be

3

scum out there. That seems more balanced in a 12 player game.

[Sir Tornado]

I am pretty sure that AmeliaLi's comment was sarcastic.

[Sir Tornado]

Vote: Lowell

I was hoping to have a bit more discussion before doing this... but if nobody seems to be willing to discuss anything, I might as well vote for the scummiest person I feel right now and be done with it.

[Sir Tornado]

I don't know whether to believe Klopyrev's role claim or not...

I'd like to say first that I am not mafia. The only way Klopyrev's attempt (if there indeed was one) would have been blocked is if there is a back up doc, or if there is a role blocker.

If there is a role blocker, then I do not think it would be on the town side... giving town 4 power roles is making it ridiculously powerful, and may disturb the game balance a bit... a scum role blocker is possible, which sort of complicates the situation.

A back up doctor... well, this one is tougher. Had I been the doctor, I would indeed protect Jester or Numenorean7 as of now, and I can see the possibility of a doctor protecting me too. But, what I don't see, is the possibility of the doctor protecting me and Numenorean7 the same nights Klopyrev decides to try and vig us.

Then, what about N1? Who did Klopyrev try to strike N1? He came out very, very strongly against ryan on D2. Why did Klopyrev not kill ryan N1 if he was indeed the vig?

I don't like both the 2 posts of the day carrying votes in it. People need to calm down a bit, and not forget that we are still at LyLo and it is not wise to throw votes around.

[Sir Tornado]

I've just thought it over again...

It is possible that the back up doc, or whatever protected me, and Numenorean7 is the Godfather... That is a possibility I did not consider in my first post.

FOS: Numenorean7

[Sir Tornado]

So, why did you not save it till the end game?

A two shot day vig, whose two shots are both protected by the doc/blocked by the roleblocker?

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP:

I meant

two shot vig

instead of a

two shot day vig

in my last post...

[Sir Tornado]

When, after night one, klopyrev suddenly became bored and wanted to quit, I thought to myself "he's a power role, but he got blocked or prevented." The doctor was dead at that point, so a moment later, I thought, "mafia role-blocker." And I'll bet a large sum of cash that's exactly what we've got in this game. I thought klopyrev was the SK, but honestly, Vig works just as well.

Interesting theory...

Except that Klopyrev has said that he did not try to shoot anyone N1. He said he did it on N2 or N3.

[Sir Tornado]

Also I have no idea who indy is, so I don't know what to make of her/his lynch. I'll read back for that.

2) An Indy lynch?? That guy reeks of newbie town to me. Where did that come from?

Three days and no other posts from Lowell separate those two posts.

SPAG's first action on entering the game was to vote Gatorguy. Twice (first on two separate days). His only other action, whether as himself or Indy, was pack-following. He's lied a couple of times about "I'll participate tomorrow" and then not done it.

Also, a re-read of the game centering on votes has turned up some interesting things. Here's the peak of the vote on Amelia, when a band-wagon was building up behind her on day one:

AmeliaLi (4) : Indy, Nanosauromo

(Doctor)

, ryan

(Townie)

, Sir Tornado
klopyrev (2) : Numenorean7, Lowell

(Scum)

Nanosauromo (1) : Jester
Jester (1) : curiouskarmadog

(Townie)

Not Voting (4) : AmeliaLi, MightyFireball

(Townie)

, Dral

(Cop)

, klopyrev

Roles added by me. I don't think two scum would, all by themselves, vote for klopyrev, particularly that early in the game. That makes Numenorean look reasonably innocent. Indy's vote on Amelia stuck there for a long, long time, coming off only when the band-wagon on her started coming apart.

Here's the vote that lynched Lowell on day three:

865: Gatorguy91

(Cop)

, SPAG, klopyrev, Sir Tornado, Jester

It seems clear that Gatorguy investigated Lowell on night one (he started beating the drum for a Lowell lynch on day two), and either curiouskarmadog or me on night two (he was suspicious of the two of us). By this time, I think the mafia decided to sacrifice Lowell. Lowell's only real post on day three was an invitation for the cop to out himself.

Here's the vote that lynched ryan on day two:

798: Lowell

(Scum)

, Numenorean7, Sir Tornado, klopyrev, SPAG, curiouskarmadog

(Townie)

Again, mostly clears Numenorean. I don't think two scum would vote one right after the other. There's SPAG, putting ryan at L-1.

And for completeness, here's the vote that lynched Nano:

584: Jester, Numenorean7, Sir Tornado, MightyFireball

(Townie)

, Lowell

(Scum)

, Gatorguy91

(Cop)

, Ryan

(Townie)

Not much I can say about this one yet, other than the fact that the only person in on all three lynches was Sir Tornado. That means that if Indy/SPAG isn't scum, Sir Tornado almost certainly is, and ST has played a brilliant game.

So, for now, my vote is locked. I'm convinced SPAG is scum. There's a damn good chance that there's a third scum, which at this point I think might be either Sir Tornado (he does have a 4/4 record as scum ) or Amelia.

I cannot say I agree with this post at all. Firstly, I do not like your reasons for clearing Numenorean7

twice

for WIFOMish reasons. First time, you say that Num7 can't be the scum because he and Lowell were together on the Klop-wagon early on, and then the second time, you argue that Numenorean7 cannot be scum, because the scum would not vote ryan after one another. I would like to say, that both those reasons are crappy. In fact, those are the cases for Lowell and Num7 to be scum together.

Also, please note, that my vote on the Amelia wagon was merely a pressure vote made to have Amelia answer the questions I had asked her. You will notice that the vote came off directly after she had answered those questions.

I could, had I really been wanting to lynch Amelia dug up more further and found out enough reasons to keep the vote there, and allow the wagon to build up even more, but I honestly didn't do it, because I did not want to risk a mislynch. I am town.

I was the only person in the three lynches, I agree. But, don't forget that one of those lynches was a scum lynch. And, don't forget, that the Lowell wagon was losing momentum in the lull in the play on D3 before I voted Lowell and got the game moving again. The perfect play for scum, in that case would have been to lie low and hope for the Lowell wagon to fizzle out, and start chasing someone else. (which is what Numenorean7 did). Also notice, that Numenorean7 was on 2 townie mis lynches, yet he kept himself off the scum lynch.

If I were scum, and had I played a "brilliant game", you would not have been suspecting me right now. In my 4 games as scum, I have been lynched only once, whereas, I pretty much suck as town (I haven't been lynched yet as town, but I make bad decisions at endgame, which makes my side lose games)

[Sir Tornado]

Amelia, what do you think of Klopyrev's claim?

[Sir Tornado]

Second, I tried during the last 2 nights to kill 2 players who I thought were mafia. I tried to kill Sir Tornado and Numeronean7. Both nights, my actions were not done, but

as Kison says: "Your night action was not ignored."

I am not sure whether I believe the bolded part...

A Vig is a killing role, not an information gathering role. Generally, the only roles which the mod PMs back are the roles which gather information (Cop, Watchers, Trackers, etc).

I thought, which I will admit is without first hand experience, that when night actions get blocked, the Mod generally does not inform the person who made the night action that the night action is blocked -- especially when they could see the result the next day. I am making this assertion based on the fact that when a doctor protects a person successfully, the killer (whether scum, SK or a Vig) is generally not told that "His night action is not ignored". The situation is same when a cop is role blocked (he is generally simply not given results of his investigation)

I don't know why I did not see this yesterday, but I believe Klopyrev's claim even less now.

[Sir Tornado]

The only reason why I would think Kison would say something like that is if Klopy here deicded to bug the mod about why you weren't killed or Nume wasn't killed....

I don't think that will be the case. Had Klopyrev done that, Kison would have mod killed him. Notice rule number: 6

Don’t quote any PMs from me.

Violation of the above rule is

generally

a mod killable offence. Because Klopyrev is alive, I think we can conclude, that he had not bugged the mod on why I or Num7 weren't killed. In fact, Klopyrev actually put what Kison was supposed to have said to him in inverted commas (in other words he quoted Kison) in his post 867 (which I have bolded in my post 893). The fact that he is still alive points to the fact that he did not quote Kison (in other words, he is not telling the truth, or at least the complete truth)

Mod: Can you confirm whether quoting PMs, or any form of outside the thread communication, from/with you is a mod-killable offence?

[Sir Tornado]

Jester... because Klopyrev has not been modkilled, it means that he has not quoted the mod, which means he is lying. Plain and simple. Also, the points I made in my post

893

which seem to be ignored in the light of my post 895 still stand.

BTW, before you accuse me of being scum because I am "pushing the point", please note, that in my very first game on MafiaScum (Open 21: Friends and Enemies) one of my scum buddies (ryan) was modkilled because he PMed the others in day time. (The scum informed the mod about this), and that was on day one (of course, we won the game later, but it was always an uphill task after the modkill). I do not take kindly to people breaking the rules, even if they are on the same side I am on.

But, the point is NOT whether Klopyrev should be modkilled or not, it's whether he

has

been modkilled or not. He hasn't. Ergo, he did not quote Kison, as he claims to do so in post 897.

And, your comment on my post 885?

Oops... I shouldn't have quoted. And yes, I did bug the mod. After all, this is my first time playing any role other than Town and I don't know the specifics.

I know he says "any role other than town". That usually means scum. However, because this statement was said by Klopyrev, I can, for the time being assume that Klopyrev means "vanilla townie" by "town".

But, that ISN'T true either. Remember that newbie game of Klopyrev which we linked to earlier? Mini 403? Guess who Klopyrev was in that?

A Doctor

. So, what does Klopyrev mean by

"This is my first time playing any role other than Town"?

A quick check of his history reveals that that game is the ONLY game Klopyrev played here apart from this one. He can't honestly have forgotten he wasn't a vanilla townie in that game...

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado. Current vote: klopyrev. Utterly convinced that klopyrev is lying. Banging the drum hard for a klopyrev lynch. Has a FOS out for Numenorean.

Wait a minute...

Am I voting for Klopyrev? When did I do that?

After the mod's post, I think Klopyrev might be telling the truth.

[Sir Tornado]

Claim:

I am the RB. I blocked AmeliaLi last night.

Night actions:

Night 1: Block ryan
Night 2: Block Lowell
Night 3: Block Numenorean7
Night 4: Block AmeliaLi

I think AmeliaLi and Klopyrev are our final scum.

I do not believe Klopyrev's claim really. I did not role block him at all on Nights 2 or 3.

[Sir Tornado]

Vote: AmeliaLi

[Sir Tornado]

Thanks a lot Jester... you did exactly what I expected you to do.

Unvote

Vote: Sir T

[Sir Tornado]

And, yes, that's a self hammer.

[Sir Tornado]

And, in case anyone is wondering, the mafia sent in kills every night along with the name of a person to make the kills. You had to block that person to block the kills. I made the kill last night, Jester blocked me, we had no death today.

[Sir Tornado]

I meant to add this in my last post (this, and the last 3 posts should have been ONE single post).

If I were my scum partner, I would NOT make any kills tonight.

[Sir Tornado]

Actually, I think my advice to Num7 was terrible... as I told Ryan, it WAS to create a WIFOM for the town if Jester blocked Num7... but I suppose I should not have spoken to Num7 about it before doing that sort of thing. We came within inches of victory twice during the game and lost both of them.

I think mafia defeat is my fault in quite a big way... this is the second time I got lynched in the mid game as mafia after escaping suspicion on the opening days.

We killed CuriouskarmaDog because he was just about the only townie (apart from ryan who we managed to get mislynched) who we thought was getting somewhere near hunting scum, and I thought he would nail either Num7 or me at some point. Gatorguy was the obvious cop (he should act less cop-like while playing cop next time)

Well, my mafia record goes to 4/5 now... although I do have a win as town lately to make up for it.

[Sir Tornado]

Oh, and Gator, CHECK whether you are alive or not every day when you are a cop before posting.