433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[MrBuddyLee]

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: Nanook

before I fully reread. Too impatient.

[MrBuddyLee]

Wow, looks like I got the hotseat. I skimmed and I now understand what's happened, but I don't have specifics yet upon which to base firm suspicions. A few thoughts though to help get things rolling again:

1) Dodgy wouldn't have claimed as scum. It's extremely unlikely that he was this mad at a scumpartner for harrassing him, correct? So if he was scum with town harrassing him he'd want to screw over town with his claim. But by claiming doc he would have put himself and his scumteam in an awkward position and wouldn't hurt the town at all via his action. Fonz, if you're town you should have recognized this. So yeah, Dodgy was town pissed off at someone whose alignment he did not know, and he claimed something to shut them the hell up because he was pissed at them.

2) CES stepped in and wanted to undo whatever Dodgy had done, so he retracted the claim. I think it's the logical action for town to take for sure, and I think scum would be 50-50 stick with the doc claim or retract. So CES retracting is the common sense move either way, and his lurking is a sign that he's CES, not that he's scum. Since I'm town, I think the reason CES retracted is so that if there's a doc in this game, he wouldn't commit suicide by counterclaiming, and his protection choice wouldn't get screwed up by this claim.

3) Anyone who didn't express suspicion of Dodgy is suspect. Anyone over the top on Dodgy is suspect. I'll read to see who's who later.

[MrBuddyLee]

If you guys would use your brains and put yourself in the position of town replacing into this position, maybe you'd understand my post better. Instead, you're knee-jerking, leading me to believe you're looking for an easy kill. I'm particularly bothered by the vote from Nanook that comes before any questions or significant thought. Off the Mark also appears not to be thinking through the possibilities here.

Nanook, Mark, what would be the right play for town in this position, in your opinion? Keep in mind that the Dodgy claim wasn't mandated in the least by gamestate, and CES's actions took that into account.

[MrBuddyLee]

OK, so basically you're a hardass. An irrational townie claimed early, his replacement made the common sense play, and you're going to punish town for it.

Makes perfect sense. As scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

Huh?? No, he would totally dick over the town if he claimed doc and then quit. How would his scumteam be in an awkward position?

Right, over the past two years scum has learned that the winning strategy is to fakeclaim doc day one--works out to their favor the vast majority of the time.

Bullshit. If he's scum, he's just committed suicide in a plain-jane game that almost definitely has a doc. Ask Pie, I'm pretty sure he'll agree the loss of the real doc would be a minimal price to pay for catching a scumbag.

Scum false claim all the time, how would this be more awkward?

When forced. As a last resort. Duh.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also note that I'm not the only player who thinks that you're scum, there are 5 others on the wagon my friend

(oops)

Not caring which wagon is which is a hallmark of scum, fyi. Any port in a storm...

[MrBuddyLee]

You keep saying that CES made the common sense play to me, and as I've stated earlier, I disagree. Coming into the game and just saying that I'm not going to say anything after all of those events took place, and then turn around and not pay any further attention to the game is anything but common sense.

I meant common sense play as far as retracting the doc claim was concerned, since it was irrational and uncalled for in the first place.

As for CES saying nothing helpful and ignoring the game, if you think you have a metagame on him that means he's scum, you're full of it. I think the rest of the experienced players in this game will agree with me--his inactivity means nothing re: his alignment.

[MrBuddyLee]

We can let MBL go and see if he survives the night and maybe deal with him tomorrow.

What am I, a trout?

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL is acting like he somehow has more knowledge as to what Dodgy was thinking than the rest of the town does - which is completely untrue. And I find that scummy.

I still feel that nothing has been done to reverse Dodgy's scumminess, and CES's active lurkitude. Vote stands, and I'd still like a claim out of MBL.

Dodgy sent a threatening letter to someone claiming to be the forum administrator and saying he'd gut their cat or something. I think it's pretty clear he was on some bad acid or hopped up on Twinkies. Do you really want to attribute significance to his play?

More importantly, do you really think angry scum would be more likely to make a senseless claim and leave the game than angry town? Cause that would require that he decided he wanted to help his teammates, while he was in the process of behaving in a completely selfish and irrational manner.

[MrBuddyLee]

This is why I want a claim from you. Savvy?

Welp, you're in the minority. You already have a half a claim from me. You know damned well any scumteam tonight is going to think, "hmm, should we kill that guy or not, he might be the doctor" because of the halfclaim. They'll be worried about whether there's a "real" doctor who might protect me. They also may know I'll play a big part in catching them if they leave me alive. So I don't exactly expect to be alive tomorrow but we'll see.

I'll have to look back and see if you're exaggerating about my predecessor being scummy.

Also, I think Nanook is blowing smoke about his scumteam not wanting to kill me tonight. A shot at a power role is better than a random choice. Plus, if they don't kill me and I happen to be a successful doc, I'm confirmed and they're a day behind on kills. I don't intend to give them any more clues as to my identity, and I think you need to give a better reason for wanting my roleclaim at L-4 lest you yourself start smelling of scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

So if I'm NOT the doctor and I claim responsibility for the lack of nightkill because I'm "the doc", that's not likely to get me in trouble?

[MrBuddyLee]

I've given my reasons for not claiming, and you deflected with a personal reason that wasn't exactly logic-laden:

I don't think that scum are more likely to flip out than townies. I do think, though, that when townies flip out, they're very likely to tell the truth about their role. This is why I want a claim from you. Savvy?

So you think that if I say "doctor" or "cop" or "vanilla" somehow you'll be better able to discern my alignment? I've worked that through logically in my head and I don't think it's a pro-town request. If you're a doctor, you're drawing attention to yourself. If you're not a doctor, you're not respecting the real doctor's judgment, be that me or someone else who's deciding to remain silent. For all you know, Nanook's the doctor and has a perfectly valid reason for stubbornly voting me right now. More likely not though, because I think the real doctor would be playing this situation much cooler.

Claims are given for reasons. As part of the process of handing over info to town in order to catch a specific scum. In order to appease town when one's on the verge of a lynch. As part of a massclaim that will catch scum in lies and by process of elimination.

What's your reason?

You haven't given me anything, which leads me to believe you're possibly scum badgering me in hopes of weaseling a slip of the tongue that you can use to better direct your NK. And that's not going to happen--I'll only claim if there's a compelling pro-town reason, and right now there's nothing even remotely resembling one of those in sight.

[MrBuddyLee]

I haven't come close to pushing you to a role claim, you've ONLY got two votes on you FFS!

If you are town, then this is the single worst town performance I've ever seen.

This is The Fonz's post immediately preceding Dodgy's ill-advised claim. I read the thread up to this point to better understand current perspectives, and to properly answer Pie's question: if I were in his shoes, would I demand a claim.

First off, the claim is so absurdly inappropriate, I must admit if I were town looking on I wouldn't really know what to think. The first thought going through my mind would be "distancing" because it's so over the top, but I don't think Dodgy would have quit if that was the case. He was genuinely fed up with a pedant, overreacted, and took his toys and went home. I'm guessing he wanted to embarrass Fonz and teach him a lesson, which he didn't exactly succeed at doing. It appeared he genuinely thought Fonz was scum, and therefore his choice to claim doctor instead of town may have also been intended to confuse his "enemy".

Second, as The Fonz stated plainly in the post before Dodgy claimed, a claim wasn't even remotely called for from Dodgy at the time. I've retracted that claim and Pie's calling for one is unfounded. Unfortunately, calling for unnecessary claims is not an alignment tell of Pie's.

I'll repeat: Dodgy's action appears designed to punish and embarrass. Who did he have the motivation to punish? The Fonz. If he was fakeclaiming as scum, who would he be punishing? Not the Fonz. If he was (fake)claiming as town, who would he be punishing? The scum, namely Fonz. Do indignant scum really get all in a huff and quit the game when some annoying townie latches on to them? I'm guessing not, Dodgy had no motivation to WIFOM, and therefore this does not even remotely resemble a case of "annoying townie latches onto scum".

My vote on Southpaw was essentially random

I really don't like The Fonz's attempts to soft-pedal his vote by repeatedly calling it random, even after being called on it. If you're willing to stir up conversation with a bandwagon, you're willing to call a spade a spade when it comes to describing your own vote. It was provocative and intended to wagon, and there's nothing random about that. And if you're scum, there's nothing "random" about choosing "randomly" between two townies to wagon, if that's what those two happen to be. Choose your words carefully, and when someone calls you on their inaccuracy, repeat them at your own peril.

You're apparently a longtime vet, yet you're playing incredibly newbishly. That said, I don't think attacking you further is going to yield much more info right now. You'd have to do summat VERY pro-town to change my opinion.

Why back off the person you think is almost definitely scum at this point? Why call his behavior newbish instead of just plain scummy?

[MrBuddyLee]

Your argument here appears to be that what I was saying would be untrue, were I scum. Well, duh. My vote had nothing to do with Southpaw's actual behaviour, the intention was to wagon for waggoning's sake in order to generate discussion, and therefore WAS random. I'd have had no more qualms about waggoning any other player who had gotten to two votes.

No, that's a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation by you, duh.

My argument is that the fact that you're soft-pedaling your intentions makes it more likely you're scum. Or you're being sloppy, stubborn town. A vote carries intention/motive and has a target, both of which need to be random for your vote to be a random vote. You claim your target was random which is not really true because you chose between two people, and you don't even bother to claim your vote had random intentions because you clearly had motive. Your vote may have had the slightest bit of random element to it, but it took the game well outside the random voting phase and it's silly that you'd disagree with that in an attempt to protect yourself if you're town. Your predilection to redefine 1000-year old words is noted.

Your stubbornness is annoying and willingness to mislead town to alter opinions of oneself is a "classic scumtell", but apparently a hallmark of The Fonz we're going to have to learn to put up with regardless of your alignment.

[MrBuddyLee]

I just read through page 8 and wow, I must say the following statement applies to both Fonz and Dodgy:

If you are town, then this is the single worst town performance I've ever seen.

OK, joking, but seriously Fonz, if you're town I think you'd benefit from taking a less dogmatic approach. If you're scum, well, you're doing a fine job of trying to clarify something that's important for scum to have clarified right now and is NOT important for town to have clarified for reasons which I've already explained. (Whatever claim was made was unwarranted by gamestate.)

Dodgy and CES are the same person. One of them lied.

Fonz lies here. Lynch all liars? No, that's dogmatic.

If he really were the doc, why would he retract the claim?

To keep scum on their toes. Everyone else has put themselves in Dodgy/CES/MBL's position and agreed, I believe. You apparently have not. Note that if I am vanilla, the same applies. I retract the claim to give scum less information to work with, and make an argument that convinces town it's the right thing to do.

I'd be all for lynching CES right now, in the absence of a power role claim.

Based on your false statement that CES lied, I assume?

Your list of possibilities is of no relevance whatsoever to the task at hand, and is therefore hugely scummy.

FFS, if he's not mafia, the scum already know he's likely powerrole! If he's not a powerrole, he's lying anyway and still needs lynching.

This is terrible play.

1) No, mafia does NOT know my alignment. Personally, I think I'd lean towards "Dodgy was trying to draw a kill as vanilla" if I had to evaluate this externally. Perhaps if YOU are mafia you've reached the conclusion that I am doc, but you'd be guessing, and potentially guessing wrong.
2) The list of possibilities presented was entirely relevant and you calling it scummy is absurd.
3) Lynch all liars is a dreadful way to play. I can show you several instances in which well-reasoned lying won town the game. Again, your dogmatism will lower your win percentage.

Nope, if he is a power role we definitely shouldn't lynch him.

This is an amusing statement that comes from a borderline scum perspective due to how overly obvious a statement it is for a townie to make. In your own words, "Duh."

He's not claiming vanilla, atm he's not claiming anything. I just think if he genuinely is a power role, the cat's out the bag for the scum anyway, so not claiming only serves to confuse the town.

Cat's not out of the bag, and the rest of the town seems fine with being just as confused as they were before Dodgy claimed--they didn't know who the doc was then and now they think they might but aren't sure. They may actually be getting pro-townish vibes from me, as a result of me stridently making this argument from the perspective of town.

Untrue. If he's town, saving his own skin should take a back seat to giving the town accurate information, so getting lynched ought to be preferable to surviving by lying. He should claim truthfully, even if it means his own lynching.

This is terrible play. A player needs to judge what they can accomplish by withholding information. If a cop can lie to earn himself another investigation, it's not a bad play if he can sell town on the reasoning.

The advantage to the town is for everyone to have as much info on CES as possible, info the scum already have.

Scum does not have this info, and you're just repeating yourself hoping someone will think 0 = 1 if you insist upon it often enough. The more you repeat this, the more I think you're scum with your mind made up about Dodgy's role, and that's why you're so insistent that scum knows what my role is.

For the hudredth bloody time, Dodgy has already outed himself if Doc! So I wouldn't be outing the doctor, simply reducing the ability of the scum to play WIFOM with us.

And again. Wow, you really are scum who's 100% sure Dodgy was telling the truth huh? Sent your nightkill order in on me yet? On the bright side, unless I'm the cop, this entire exercise will work out well for town.

I won't be claiming unless I'm run up, and hopefully I won't be run up unless I'm found to be scummy. That's the way the game is played, correct?

[MrBuddyLee]

The three people voting for me, Pie, are you, Nanook and superstring. Reasoning:

im gonna vote for CES though.
[*]he replaced for dodgy[who was scummy beyond belief]
[*]he barely posted at all
[*]his last post was may 30 which was a new vote. only a new vote

MBL is acting like he somehow has more knowledge as to what Dodgy was thinking than the rest of the town does - which is completely untrue. And I find that scummy.

I still feel that nothing has been done to reverse Dodgy's scumminess, and CES's active lurkitude. Vote stands, and I'd still like a claim out of MBL.

This vote partly is placed based on the fact that I'm interested more so in finding out more about this doc claim. It's not so much that I want to be sure he's the doc as I am curious as to him being scum. I find it odd his initial reaction to Dodgy's behaviors and why not continuing with the doc claim was scummy.

Why suddenly retract a role claim that's already been made is something that I've always had difficulties dealing with.

One issue I've had in the past with Dodgy was much similar to this one, and for whatever reason I always have Dodgy pinned as scum in a game whether he is or not.

At this point in the game with lessened discussion I'd rather push a "re-claim" and or new claim from CES to clear the air.

Weak, seriously.

1) Superstring thinks Dodgy was scummy beyond belief, which is not accurate in my opinion. Superstring tacks on lurking reasons, which is an ok reason to vote, except that it no longer applies because I'm not lurking and because CES just abandoned a newbie game he's modding and therefore I don't think the lurking can be concluded to bear on his alignment in the least.
2) Pie states a half-falsehood. I don't claim to know more about what Dodgy was thinking than town was except for the fact that I'm the only one who knows he was town and therefore I can eliminate certain motivations for his actions. Other than that, I can only evaluate his words the same way the rest of you would and reach logical conclusions, and try to share them with all of you. Pie also zeroes in on CES's lurkitude, which I point out in (1) is a misguided strategy, and says nothing has been done to reverse Dodgy's scumminess, which I think is a dreadful falsehood. You're saying I'm playing less pro-town than Dodgy did?
3) Nanook admits to always having Dodgy pegged as scum, which is one reason to reduce credence in his vote. He admits to the major reason for his vote on CES being to get a re-claim, with partial reasoning that we're short on discussion and therefore the claim will help stimulate things, and that no longer applies. He doesn't understand why town would retract a claim, implying he hasn't really thought it through.

All in all, unconvincing reasons. I'll see if inHim needs to be protected from you jackals as I read page 9-present.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'd recommend against lynching inHim/sweeney.

Sweeney posted rationally in response to the Dodgy situation. I am a bit concerned about his awkwardly referring to the "mafia" a few times in the third person but it's not compelling enough to run with on its own. InHim is a very good player who has been trying to draw connections and actually pay attention to the substance of people's posts. Could be scum but I don't feel it. Maybe I'll change my mind when reading his posts in the context of the thread instead of isolated, but I don't think so.

Day's gone on forever. I hope we can find a better lynch soon. I'll read how people attacked inHim and see who's been reasonable about it and who's been pretending and/or distancing.

[MrBuddyLee]

Pie, this is incorrect:

This does not line up with your new claim that your connection with dodgy only went so far as knowledge of his alignment.

Because I think the rest of town and I should be able to pick apart Dodgy's actions for ourselves and figure out his motivations IN ADDITION to what I already know about his alignment. You're blatantly misrepresenting, and for doing this repeatedly

FOS: Pie

. I'm not getting a pro-town feel from this push of yours.

Pie, please make the case that Dodgy took his action as scum. Explain who he was pissed at, what their alignment was, and what he hoped to accomplish. Feel free to do it twice if you see two equally likely alternatives. If your alternatives aren't equally likely, please state which is more likely and why.

Please be thorough, because it seems the crux of your argument for wanting me to claim is that Dodgy was equally or more likely to have taken this action as scum than as town.

As for your point on CES actively lurking, I suppose you can make a ton of hay about his seven posts and their lack of content but you'd have to do it in the context of the other lurkers in this game and why you're singling him out. Not to mention that you'd be faced with the complication of explaining how his play in this game differs from his usual play.

[MrBuddyLee]

Fonz, you're clearly a bit of a stubborn ass, but I'm gonna try to roll with it.

[MrBuddyLee]

1. You insist that either CES or Dodgy lied.
2. You insist it's never pro-town to retract an ill-made power role claim.
3. You insist Dodgy couldn't possibly have claimed doc to help the town.
4. You insist that Lynch all Liars is unequivocally correct.
5. You insist scum are 100% certain I'm the doc.
6. You insist that your vote placed to intentionally foment a bandwagon was "random".
7. You insist "random" has a new definition not found in any dictionary, to which only you are privy.

Come to think of it, the real Fonz couldn't say he was ever w... w... wr... wr... .

http://www.tvacres.com/char_fonzarelli_arthur.htm

Hey, you're roleplaying, that's COOL. Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

[MrBuddyLee]

Honestly, at this point, if you want day to get over with wouldnt it be logical to see who the town thinks is scummy? Isnt it a little bit strange that you are defending Inhim, yet you havent read his posts in the context they were written? This seems like a distancing tactic to me, if in fact inhim turns up scum.

I'm distancing by defending him? Feel free to clarify that accusation.

Also, considering your lack of contribution to this game I think it's a tad hypocritical to chastise me for not doing a complete reread yet.

Also, your analysis of why sweeney isnt scum is crap,

just because someone reacted the way you think they should have does NOT make them any less a canidate for scum

. Sweeny could have very well been scum, or not scum, posting rationally about someone claim does not tell of alignment at all.

I agree, and I mentioned one of the few things that registered scummy about Sweeny to me, but on the whole I got a neutral to slightly town read of him. I never said I don't think Sweeny could possibly be scum--you should choose your words more carefully.

In the last game I played with MBL, he did exactly as he said he agrees with, he lied the whole game, he fake claimed like 3 times, the problem with not telling the truth, is that (as seen in the last game by MBL) it can be used by scum and town alike.

That's not a compelling argument for lynching ALL liars.

In Mormon Missionary Mafia, I lied about having a one-shot self-protect and it kept scum from killing me, and town won. Sometimes lying is good, and just like anything else in this game it's up to town to make up their minds on a case-by-case basis. Rarely in RL or in this game is a dogmatic approach the best way to approach situations.

I would be good with a vote on either MBL or Inhim,

being that Inhim has seeminly disappeared or started lurking and the fact that he has the biggest wagon, I would think that Inhim is our best shot right at this moment, but if the tide changes

, I could just as easily vote for MBL. I honestly believe that if MBL is not scum, he will die tonight. Therefore, I see inhim as a better lynch right now.

Scummy.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'll take issue with (2) and (4). One and three are true to some extent and the only debate is one of degrees.

2) Much, much information can be gleaned from an MBL claim; such that it outweighs risk of giving scum information.

Please tell me what you'll learn if I claim vanilla. Then tell me what you'll learn if I claim doc. Then tell me what you'll learn if I claim cop. In detail, preferably, as there's "much, much" to be learned.

4) You (MBL) acted overly sure of Dodgy's motivations for his actions, which is scummy.

Here's my quote, please outline very specifically where you see it as oversure and where you see my conclusions significantly deviating from an application of common sense.

Dodgy wouldn't have claimed as scum. It's extremely unlikely that he was this mad at a scumpartner for harrassing him, correct? So if he was scum with town harrassing him he'd want to screw over town with his claim. But by claiming doc he would have put himself and his scumteam in an awkward position and wouldn't hurt the town at all via his action. Fonz, if you're town you should have recognized this. So yeah, Dodgy was town pissed off at someone whose alignment he did not know, and he claimed something to shut them the hell up because he was pissed at them.

Pie, I don't see an incredible amount of insight behind your questions and your press. Please demonstrate relevance and proportionality more clearly, because I'm not seeing it right now in this push for "much, much" information. It appears to me you're tilting at windmills, and possibly as a dilatory tactic.

[MrBuddyLee]

Fonz, your unequivocal statement is you can tell from your perspective that one of {CES, Dodgy} lied about the roleclaim.

Dodgy said he was the doc.

CES said:

Okay, I'm retracting Dodgy's claim.

Objectively, he probably claimed to help the scum nail the doctor at night.

For starters, retracting a claim can never be a lie because it doesn't assert an arguable statement. That part of CES's statement is not a lie and if you think it is, you licked too much paint as a kid, plain and simple. But please clarify for us--is this the sentence you think could conceivably be a lie?

Let's take the case where I am town. In that case you are correct, one of CES/Dodgy lied.

Let's take the case where I am the doc. CES's hypothesis that "the claim was most likely intended to help scum kill the doc" wouldn't be my first choice of motive, but it's not anywhere near a lie, as if Dodgy was actually the doc, his claim would surely make an NK of the doc more likely. Please clarify for us--is this the sentence you think could conceivably be a lie?


So how do you conclude that no matter what, in both of these scenarios, one of Dodgy/CES lied?

If you can't explain that to me satisfactorily, then I'd be right to push your lynch for lying, correct?

[MrBuddyLee]

Bolded phrases are the ones I took issue with. On your first post in from replacing, you're not qualified to make definitive statements like those.

I can add 3 probablys to that and it reads less definitive. Can you pretend I did that in the first place and we'll move on? This is silly, really. i mean, it's not that tough to read 8-10 short posts from an old-timer and get a feel for why they flipped out, especially if you know their alignment.