Mini 462: Just another game of Mafia... over

[AlSleet]

Yeah, seriously, it's helping nobody to keep your suspicions secret. Most of us have very little to go on.

[AlSleet]

We're never going to expose anyone by keeping our suspicions secret.

FOS: Nekka-Lucifer

[AlSleet]

I think Nekka was just genuinely trying to test a new strategy or something. And, while his play has been a little weak so far I honestly think he's making a sincere pro-town effort.

FOS: Panzerjager

[b/]

I didn't like your attempt to lurker hunt in the beginning and now you're throwing what seems to me like sometimes farfetched accusations at people.

[AlSleet]

If you can quote where I lurker hunted I will lynch myself.

I know nekka is trying out new strategy's he is a new player.

And there were people who were lurker hunting and their were people asking for prods. Exactly their was not new discussion. And it was Hand Banana and Tarhildur. Falcone said nekka far too many times for me to comprehend that statement fully.

I meany going after lurker hunters. Sorry about that. I don't agree with lurker hunting later on in the game, but in the beginning I think it's fine because it forces people to post and we get a better idea of who scum are.

[AlSleet]

Elias; Middle of page 2 for a 12 player game is still in the joke vote stage as far as I'm concerned, I did my RV just a couple posts before. This observation in my mind nullifies thy second point too.

Alsleet; Your playstyle is your own, but why hunt rather than prod? For all you know they can't log on and assuming they can't see it you have just wasted a vote for the time being.

I haven't changed my random vote yet, so I haven't wasted a vote. And I wouldn't call what I want to do with lurkers hunting, I just want as much information as possible before I cast a real vote.

[AlSleet]

i'd like to hear falcone's oppinion on Panzerjager, and AlSleet's about elias and vice versa.

His post sequence 45-48-50-56-62 just doesn't add up.

what is exactly wrong with my posts?

so Nekka was right to pursue the point for a bit.

what point?
about that half-assed "trap" he set up for mafia, and me falling into that trap?

Elias sems fine to me. Haven't caught anything particularly too scummy off of him, but then again, it's still early.

My main suspects now are probably you, Panzerjager, Tahrlinduhr. I'll have more details about that once I reread the game so far.

[AlSleet]

Alright, well I guess I have a few changes to make. First of all, sorry to Tahralindur for butchering your name and probably doing so again. Secondly, I think I confused you with Kehvaster. Kehlvaster seems to be posting only enough to not be called a lurker, but seems to me to post very little actual content and also is inconsistent in regards to lurkers. Hand Banana overreacted before with the whole Nekka-Lucifer plan and his trying to do damage control by no longer maliging him. And I just don't like Panzerjager's playing style. He seems awfully confrontational and accusation-happy which are things I'm not a fan of. Overall, my main problem with you three is inconsistency. So

FOS: The above three

[AlSleet]

First off, if he is gonna play this, I'm gonna name people and they need to claim game and reveal power roles I want to be more certain then Hand Banana is vig. On top of that if he is gonna go around having power roles claim and such I'd rather have the vig lynched, because that is a terrible strategy. Might as well mas claim and see where that gets us. I'm 100% against this strategy regardless of the townness.

AlSleet, please tell me how I have been Inconsistent. I have been logical and aggressive the entire game. This is twice you have said something false about me. Why are you slandering me?

FoS:AlSleet

I meant inconsistent in your voting suspicions. There were like 4 posts towrds the beginning when you started jumping on small details of people's posts. It just seemed a little all over the place to me. I don't really suspect you much anymore, though, I figure you were just trying to get discussion going. Plus, I see some people (i.e Khelvaster) who have made themselves more suspect to me than you have.

[AlSleet]

How are we supposed to be certain that you are actually a vig and not a mafia goon that is role fishing?

If he doesn't get NK'ed by scum, we'll know his claim is bull. Then, I'd say, we should lynch his scummy ass.

[AlSleet]

I was telling people they were acting suspicious. Consistently telling them they were suspicious. I still don't see and inconsistency. Is there any particular reason why you have FoSed me twice because of things both of us have proved to be not true?

Those were my reasons, alright? Maybe inconsistent was the wrong word to use, but I've explained why I did it and I won't do so again.

[AlSleet]

i wouldn't get NK'ed if doc protects me.
you would lynch me after that?

I don't know to be honest. I still haven't decided if I think you're genuine. Nobody has counterclaimed you, yet I think your plan is foolish and unnecessarily risky. I'll have to reread the topic to get a better impression I suppose.

[AlSleet]

well, anyone would claim in -1 from lynch. i really didn't have to claim..
and i explained all that.

FOS: Panzerjager

and about my strategy being " foolish and unnecessarily risky". i think unnecessarily risky is killing people without revealing that you are vig. would you rather had me killing secretly whoever i wanted than this? this way, at least i'm giving a chance to power-roles..

I'd rather have kept you role secret and not have been such a dyanmic. I think it would have been safer and more effective that way. But that's just my opinion.

[AlSleet]

panzer you scum, you are so going down tonight.

OMGUS, eh? I don't like that at all, especially from a so-called vigilante.

[AlSleet]

Vote: Nekka

No need to be so freaking hostile to the newbie. If we get two kills tonight, then hand banana is vig. If we get one kill, then hand banana is scum. It's that simple. I highly doubt the existance of a mafia roleblocker because of the small size of the game. Nekka is trying to quicklynch a claimed vig, and that is absolutely unacceptable.

Handbanana could be lying and there is a another vig, you know. This situation is way too uncertain. I don't like it.

[AlSleet]

Hand banana's play has become so strange that the only reason I'm not voting him is because he's an uncounterclaimed vig. He seems dead-set to enact a plan that is, in my opinion, very anti-town (especially since it's likely to out most or all of our power roles), ignoring the town's wishes in the process (for future reference, it is my opinion that there are probably 1-2 scum hiding in the group of less-than-active players), and he's OMGUS'ing anyone who speaks out against his plan to boot.

IMO, hand banana is either lying scum or a vig who is playing *very* poorly (and hand banana is right that a poorly played vig can be a liability to the town). I'm not sure, however, if the benefit of taking out a probable liability to the town is worth the risk of potentially losing our vig on Day 1.

This situation is really uncertain. I think it'd be stupid to lynch him today for the chance that he as a vigilante, but, on the other hand, it'd be too risky toget all the power roles out there. I'm leaning towards a situation where he's getting a free ride through the game by trying to lull us all into a sense that it'd be too much of a risk to lynch him despite his anti-town behavior. I think we'll just have to see what happens in the first night though.

[AlSleet]

This situation is really uncertain. I think it'd be stupid to lynch him today for the chance that he as a vigilante, but, on the other hand, it'd be too risky toget all the power roles out there. I'm leaning towards a situation where he's getting a free ride through the game by trying to lull us all into a sense that it'd be too much of a risk to lynch him despite his anti-town behavior. I think we'll just have to see what happens in the first night though.

I've got a question that might help us decide where to go from here.

At this point, my opinion is that if hand banana is, in fact the vig, then he is effectively a forced/overeager vig (i.e, a vig that has to fire every night), especially since IMO revealing power roles is almost as bad as killing them off. From what I've seen in past games, forced vigs tend to be a liability to the town - they don't have the option of just not firing, so they often wind up shooting at vaguely scummy players who turn out to be power roles.

My question for everyone is, is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a claimed forced vig on Day 1, given that a forced vig is a town power role that is known to backfire horribly on the town?

No way. Even if I don't like it, there's still no counterclaim and I'd rather put my vote on someone who hasn't claimed a pro-town power role and not been counterclaimed. I think we should all step back and look at other players besides handbanana- this situation is distractng us too much from the task at hand: finding scum.

[AlSleet]

Vote: Tarhalindur

Tar is the only person I've seen who is continuously trying to take down a claimed, unchallenged vig. That is not good in my book.

He just unfos'd him a few months ago...

Unless I'm hallucinating or something...

[AlSleet]

EBWOP: Posts not months

Maybe I am hallucinating...

[AlSleet]

I'd just like to raise a point that we have a big problem: we've had 9 pages so far and we're not close to lynching anyone. We can't lynch handbanana yet because it would be way too risky to lynch a noncounterclaimed power role. The situation has been distracting us way too long and I think we need to move away from it because I don't much further can come from it until day 2. So I'd like to see whom, other than handbanana, everyone finds suspicious and hopefully some discussion will come from it and we'll come closer to eliminating scum.

[AlSleet]

Well, let me just say right now I don't support forcing a claim anyone.

Secondly, I just reread the game and I'm going

vote: Khelvaster

He's been going with the flow the whole game- and that's it. He hasn't offered a fresh perspective at all and of the two attacks he has made one turned out to be completely falsified. Also, he totally changed his postition on handbanana from saying "I almost want to lynch Handbanana. I don't feel comfortable with him as our vig." to attacking nekka-lucifer for raising issues on handbanana's scumminess. And of course we have him making mistakes in his posts. It's those little slip-ups that reveal to me that you're just trying to coast through this game undetected. You'd better have a solid defense, because I do not plan on changing my vote.

[AlSleet]

Unvote: Khelvaster

In light of his uncountered claim.

[AlSleet]

I don't want to make a decision until both claimed cops write detailed defenses. I don't want to base possibly lynching a town power role on a gut feeling or anything like that. Also, I think Khelvaster's analysis of Jenter Brolincani is a little weak based on that one statement alone, but it would probably benefit me to reread the game and get myself reacquainted with everyone's play. Maybe then I'd see what else is behind Khelvaster's reasoning.

[AlSleet]

My acute son only night protects a reaper the next era. Remembering alot leaning somewhere leant everywhere except that

Yikes. Mason partner AlSleet? (Look at the first letter of each word.) I don't know if you thought it was subtle, but an intentionally random sentence will call attention to itself.

The only reason I call attention to this fact is, and I REALLY REGRET having to do this, but with Nekka-Lucifer claiming, I'm forced to claim as well. I really think no one else should claim at this point unless you're in trouble. Seriously.

I am a mason. And Nekka-Lucifer *IS NOT* my partner, nor is AlSleet. I don't want to reveal my mason partner in case he/she does not feel comfortable coming forward yet.

It is possible there is more than one set of masons in this game. I haven't played enough to know if this could happen. If that's true, though, there could be a "doubling" thing going on in the setup, which makes me wonder. Two cops? Four masons? Maybe.

I have no idea what to think at this point.

Well, either you're a liar or there are two sets of masons. Way to reveal my role. But I guess it's not so bad with everyone claiming, I'd just like to see Rishi's mason partner step forward.

[AlSleet]

Hmm starnge indded. That there would be two setsof Masons then? Either that, or Jenter and Rishi are scum partners. Because I am also a Mason, and my partner, who will be left unnannounced, is also amason (Well look at that ) Two, sets of Masons is really, really unlikely.

Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

If my partner wishs to claim, so be it, but I will not claim for him.

What the hell? Either like 2/3 of everyone in this game is lying or this is the oddest setup ever.

[AlSleet]

wow, what???

we now have 2 claimed cops, and 4 claimed masons?
haha

are you guys kidding me..
when i saw the title "Just another game of Mafia..." i expected just the opposite, but this..... omg.

can there be 2 sets of masons??


if we have so much power roles, then mafia has roleblockers, godfathers and whatnot. but since i will publicly say who i'm going to vig, if i get roleblocked, we'll have a target for lynch the next day (unless mafia blocks me even if i want to kill townie, so that we use our lynch on him the next day, depriving the town of one lynch.. bah.. it's all wifom, and it's all f-ed up).

ok.. i am against the lynch of claimed cops.
i am for lynch of one of the claimed masons. i will 99% not use NK tonight.

--
i think that first masons that claimed are scum. i think their reasoning was: since there are so many power roles, there are no masons, and we should breadcrumb/claim it. but they were wrong..

this scenario is much more likely then 2 mafia guys juts exposing themselves counterclaiming the real masons.
makes no sense to me.
so in my eyes jenter and rishi are clear.

nekka and alsleet are either scum (which is more probable) or other pair of masons (less probable).
-------
and i will vote for either one of them. but i will not vig the other on the first night because they can be masons. if one of them turns scum, i'll vig the other on the next day.

--

one more thing: can there be a 2 pairs of masons but both pairs consisting of one townie and one scum? that would be very bad for us.

You have nothing to base my scumminess on other than the fact that partner outed my role prematurely which I do not agree with. You can see from my earlier posts I'm against roleclaiming and I still am. But, in order to protect my partner I did confirm my role. You should reconsider and think about why all these people jumped on the "let's claim mason!" bandwagon.

[AlSleet]

i have a new strategy.

we have 3 pairs of masons (maybe even 4, we'll see about that).

there is no doubt in my mind that every pair consists of one townie + one scum.

so there we have:

1st pair: nekka and alsleet
i'm not sure
50%-50%

2nd pair: rishi and jenter
i'm pretty sure
5%-95%

3rd pair: N9V and XXX
also, pretty sure NV is town
5% - 95%

and my plan is: we lynch jester, and i Night Kill NV's partner.
ok with that?

and panzer khelv situation will be resolved when we get theris investigations.
i think town wins easily in this game.

Ever think that one claimed mason pair can just be scumbuddies looking for an alibi? I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that each pair has one scum in it. At least one has to be a legit pro-town pair.

[AlSleet]

3. um, how do you know that N9V isnt scum? So far he's random voted, counterclaimed a mason claim, and fosed based on this. What exactly makes him seem protown to you as opposed to me?

ok.. i will explain my train of thoughts about you and him.

so, first i realized this: there are 3 mason pairs.
mafia counterclaiming masons would be stupid.
so then, all 3 pairs are REALLY masons.
only way this could ever be in a setup is if every pair consists of one townie + one scum.
so, you and n9v are a pair.
one of you is scum, the other one is townie.
and then he said this:

Two, sets of Masons is really, really unlikely. Vote Rishi MAJOR FoS Jemter

it seems to me he wants to lynch them both, and he actually believes that they are fake masons.
scum would
1. know that there are more masons
2. would not react like that, wanting to lynch both of them.
so, n9v is townie.
that means you're scum.

similar reasoning led me to believe rishi is townie, and jeneter is scum.
that's why i said want to lynch jenter and kill you.
about 3rd pair nekka and alsleet, i'm not sure, and i would like both cops to investigate ONLY ONE OF THEM. and this has to be pre-aranged because of that thing falcone mentioned about 2 cops being able to investigate only one mafia family.
(to give an example: say there are really 2 cops. and say nekka is scum. and khel can detect him but panzer can't. panzer investigates him, and khel investigates other guy, and we have nothing. only way we ca be sure is if we pre-determine cops investigations)

so @ both cops (if we really have 2 cops): investigate nekka.
if we do this,
i'm pretty sure that we will have 2 scum dead in the morning, and 3rd mason pair will also be exposed. if falcone is right and we have 2 cops we will either get 2 results on nekka (1 guilty and 1 innocent) or 2 innocent, and we'll know who to lynch on day 2.
if i make a mistake and kill the wrong guy, in worst case scenario, we will have 1 more day.
i think this game is practically allready won.
who's with me?

Quit trying to be the freaking leader. Nobody in their right mind is going to fall in line with somebody who was the impetus for what became a mass role claim. Look at the mess it caused, man. Now step back and consider the very probable option that at least one mason pair is legit. There are many different situations that can explain the six mason claim and I'm sure if we all use logic and maybe cop investigations and get to the bottom of it. But to assume each pair has a scum in it is ridiculous in my mind and I am certainly not going to abide by your, yet again, unnecessarily risky plan.

[AlSleet]

who advanced the pairings in the first place

i guess that was me.

damn my memory...n9v was the one who brought up the rishi/major FoS jenter, then you brought up the pairings.

Un FoS: n9v

FoS: Falcone

Why wouldn't the mafia kill the doc?

How would they know he was doc? I don't remember him claiming at all.

[AlSleet]

damn!!!!
yes, i killed jenter (sorry man )
it killed him because i was 100% convinced that every mason pair was consisted of one scum+one town, and rishi gave me a very strong town vibe.

i was thinking between him and alsleet, but i thought alsleet (being nekka's patner) is the clearest choice for town now tat nekka is dead and turned up innocent, and then all i need to do is to choose elias or his partner on night 2 and this game is over.

i really have no idea what to do now, and i guess we're screwed. assuming it was 9-3, we now have 6-3 in favor of town.
but if it was 8-4, we now have 5-4 and it's almost LyLo.

and i think maybe it could be 5-4 since we only had one mafia kill (rishi). no 2 mafia families.
so it's either 4 mafia alive (because there's way to much power roles, and game needs to be balanced), or half of these power roles are liars and they are mafia.

I think it'd be better to go after nonclaimers(I think there are a couple) because two mason pairs turned out to be legit I think there's a good chance the third one would be as well. Yeah, it's strange, but I wouldn't put it past this odd set up.

[AlSleet]

I trust panzer's claim and he was impartial on elias before in my opinion so I think it's genuine.

vote: elias the thief

[AlSleet]

I agree with the logic that tar used, even if it is possible that he is scum...

Vote: Elias the thief

A 4-mafia setup in a 12-man game with so many unconfirmed masons and a doc, cop, and vig is unbalanced in the mafia's favor. It can't be 2-2, since otherwise there would have been three night kills. Thus, we must have 3 scum.

I am assuming that my conclusion is valid, so here is my proposal on the vig, assuming an Elias lynch.

If Elias is not scum, Panzer is the definite NK for being a false cop.

If Elias is scum, that would leave Falcone/Tar and Me/Panzer as the two possible scum. This ought to be a townie win.

Tell me if this suggestion is wrong, people, but I think that vigging Tar or Falcone is the best option here if Elias is innocent. If we get the doc, we can lynch the other guy tomorrow, and HB can vig me or Panzer at night. The next day, lynch the other guy, if you end up vigging me. That is the worst case scenario, and it will mean 3 scum lynched in 3 days. I'll investigate Panzer tonight just to double check that he isn't a cop.

I wouldn't bother investigating panzer because if elias turns up innocent we know he'd be a liar.

[AlSleet]

Okay, Khelvaster is trying to get me lynched by claiming that a) Falcone is innocent and b) because Falcone is innocent, I must be scum.

And Tarhalindur goes into defensive scum mode, starting with a nice, juicy helping of misattribution.

I am trying to get him lynched because

0. I am assuming one doc in this game--when was the last mini game you saw with 2 docs?
1. He claimed doc, and Falcone did too.
2. Falcone is doc
3. Because Falcone is doc, Tarhalindur isn't doc
4. Tarhalindur claimed doc d1 without being under that much pressure. He wasn't nightkilled night 1, and came up with a lame excuse that 'scum must have wanted to go after masons instead of doc'

That's awfully shoddy reasoning - in fact, given the sheer number of masons in the game and Khelvaster's play here I think we may be dealing with 2 doctors and no cop, making Khelvaster a scum who got away with a fakeclaim due to luck/skill.

It's shoddy reasoning the way he describes it, not the way I actually presented it. He misrepresented my argument, then attacked that misrepresentation. That is a signature of a scum's last-ditch effort to save himself. He then presents more shoddy reasoning:
According to Tar

The fact that there are 6 unconfirmed masons in this game and the fact that I report Falcone as doc and AlSleet as innocent mason mean that there is a good chance there are no cops and 2 docs in this game.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

The other possibility, of course, is that Falcone is a mafia godfather.

Yes, because everybody knows godfathers give investigation results of 'doctor,' as opposed to 'townie'.

I'm not sure of which possibility to believe, but I do know that I am almost certainly NOT the play for today, as lynching me almost certainly leads to a scum win.

Lynching someone besides Tar leads to a scum win.

What do the rest of you make of this?

I think we should hear from ac's replacement before we lynch this early in the day.

[AlSleet]

This is pretty whack, man. I guess just

vote: tarhalindur

.

[AlSleet]

You'll all rue the day you killed AlSleet!

[AlSleet]

Good game. Whack setup, but still a lot of fun. Especially being killed. First time being killed is quite an experience. I was quite destraught, but after all the tears and the pain I accepted it. I'm still plotting revenge, though...

Hope to see everyone in future games.

[AlSleet]

Oh, you just made your first mistake, Brolincani. Don't tempt the Sleet.