Mini 462: Just another game of Mafia... over

[Falcone]

Have fun everyone!

Vote: AlSleet

[Falcone]

Nekka, you still haven't said who the one person you were supicious of was. Do you mind sharing (+ reasons if possible)?

Hand banana, why did you suspect khelvaster in post 36? Also, why the sudden change of heart about Nekka (posts 45 vs 48 & 50)?

To the people complaining about those who haven't posted yet: Relax! The game hasn't even been going for two days, and in a weekend no less. No reason to worry about lurkers yet.

[Falcone]

Unvote: AlSleet
Vote: hand banana
FoS: Elias_the_thief

Hand banana is overreacting to Nekka's remarks about him being suspicious, and he's actively trying to stop the discussion about it. His post sequence 45-48-50-56-62 just doesn't add up.

Elias seems to be attacking panzerjager for what seem to be fait points. Also, there was no "current" discussion instead of the "old" discussion about Nekka, so Nekka was right to pursue the point for a bit.

[Falcone]

EBWOP: ...

fair

points ... of course

[Falcone]

Also, why do you think the points that panzer made are correct?

As Panzerjager already pointed out, I said the points he made were fair, not correct. As to my reasons, I just happen to agree with him about hand banana (hence my vote), and to a lesser extent about Tarhalindur. I really don't think he did nothing but spread confusion.

Also, you made a very good point about Khelvaster's inconsistency about lurkers.

FoS: Khelvaster

i'd like to hear falcone's oppinion on Panzerjager

So far I don't see anything wrong about Panzerjager's posts.

I'll elaborate about why I took issue with your posts 45-48-50-56-62. In post 45, you voted Nekka for "doing nothing useful for the town". In post 48, you seem to overreact a little to Nekka's suspicion, even though he didn't even name you (yet). In post 50, you suddenly decided that Nekka was probably town, which is weird considering both of the earlier posts. In post 56 you claimed that you always thought Nekka was town. In post 62, you tried very hard to cut short the discussion that was spurred by your earlier behaviour, which seems like a typical scum reaction to me, and incidentally, that was exactly what Nekka was trying to point out.

[Falcone]

Very happy with my vote.

Hand banana wanted me to elaborate about my reasons for suspecting him, I did, and he didn't comment on it.

Also, he claims to have found at least one scum (post 90) or even three scum (post 99), but he didn't give any reasons.

Oddly enough, I also just noticed hand banana isn't even voting anyone. That's not suspicious per se, but still...

[Falcone]

I was going to write up a semi-long post as a response to hand banana, but his claim made that kind of moot.

I'm still going to respond to this though:

(...) you fit into my definition of scum pretty well (playing just enough so you wouldn't be called lurker, being over causcious, exaggerating when describing your reasons for voting me, etc..)
earlier i said there was 60% chance that at least one of you or Khelvaster are scum.
now i think it's <10% that khel is scum and you are at the 90+ % mark.
thus,

vote: falcone

- The point about playing just enough not to be called a lurker is stupid. You can't determine whether someone is a lurker just by looking at their post count. You also have to take into account the amount of actual content in their posts. I'll usually make one or two posts each day, and try to comment on as many issues as possible in those posts.

- The point about me being overcautious is unjustified to. I make it a point to make clear whom I suspect in a game of mafia, and to always have my vote on the most scummy player (in my opinion), unless I have a good reason not to. I think I did that in this game too.

- And I don't feel I exaggerated when I gave my reasons for voting you The case against you was quite strong, especially your flipflopping about Nekka earlier.

I can't help but notice I have to add OMGUS-behaviour to your resume now...



Anyway, onto hand banana's claim and the "plan" he formulated. Some problems I immediately noticed when reading about your plan:

1. What made you think there wouldn't be any experienced and good players in the mafia to pick up on you hints that you were a power role?
2. As a townie, you should never deliberately act in a way that gets you votes.
3. As a townie, you shouldn't claim when you have only two votes. It makes it too easy for the mafia to gather information about the roles of the other players and thus determine their strategy.
4. Have you considered the possibility of just not using your ability tonight? In general, longer games (in game days) tend to benefit the town.

Having said all that, if no one counterclaims, I'm actually going to believe your claim for the time being. However, I want to make a very important amendment to your plan:

THIS IS IMPORTANT

: If you're a townie, it's terrible strategy to decide on your own who you're going to lynch and force that person to claim. You should let the town decide whether to choose your ability and who to use it on. That way, it's like the town gets an extra lynch, which is great, since lynching is the only way for the town to kill the mafia. Only problem is that we won't know the outcome of the first lynch before determining the second. Therefore, I think it's best to consider "no vig" the default option, only to be deviated from for specific reasons.

In light of all this, I'll

unvote: hand banana

.

[Falcone]

Tarhalindur

, I think you misunderstood Panzer's post 132. Which you're not to blame for, because it was worded in a very confusing way.

Also, you made a good point about the possibility of a mafia RB'er. That possibility makes hand banana's decision to claim even worse.

Hand banana

, I urge you to show restraint in using your ability. Frankly, I have my doubts about your judgment about people's alignment from seeing your play so far, even though I think your protown for now.

Everyone

, don't claim just because hand banana is threatening to vig you. If hand banana does decide to kill someone without the support of a considerable number of people, I'll have no qualms whatsoever in lynching him the next day.

[Falcone]

4. yes i have. i will name one guy. if i get a claim, i will not kill him nor anyone else.

So you're just going to force one semi-random player to claim, risking to out a power role? And if you happen to name scum, they can just claim whatever and be done with it? That's a positively awful plan.

you are forgetting that lynch decisions all have scum factor involved in them. anything town declares is influenced by the scum. my decision is 100% pro town.

I didn't forget that. I just have more faith in the entire town deciding on a correct lynch/vig kill than in you making that decision on your own, even after taking into account the influence the scum have over the town's decision. Remember, being town doesn't mean you're going to decide correctly. Also, we can't actually be sure you're protown. Giving a possible scum a free nightkill of his choice would be terribly stupid.

[Falcone]

i don't get this.. "free nightkill"??

scum already has a free nightkill.

That's why giving them an

extra

free nightkill would be disastrous.

@panz: mafia will kill someone, i will kill someone, then you'll know.(unless mafia decides not to kill in order to discredit me and my kill gets to be the only one )

Except that you could still be a Serial Killer...

Anyway, that's more than enough posting for me today. I'll try to comment on some non-hand banana players tomorrow.

[Falcone]

Wow, I've obviously missed out on alot of content while I was away. I just want to raise suspicion back onto Hand Banana, personally I don't believe his claim. The suspicion I would like to raise is on Post 127. In the last bit, didn't he outloy his future plan to catch scum, or did I misread it?

Could you clarify this? I'm not sure what you mean by "outloy" (English not being my first language), and I'm not sure what exactly you find suspicious about hand banana's post 127.

Also, I just realized that we have three people not playing (yet): ac, roland and N9V. We should definitely let them take part in the discussion before we do anything about the whole hand banana situation.

[Falcone]

Outloy:- I would say is the dictation of something. Basically telling someone something. Just a smart way of saying telling. Hope that helps

Why is "telling" a future plan to catch scum a scummy action?

If we get two kills tonight, then hand banana is vig. If we get one kill, then hand banana is scum. It's that simple.

False. If there's two kills tonight, hand banana is either a vigilante or a serial killer.



Hand banana, you are way to sure of your own incredible plan and of your own skill at catching mafia. The right way to play your role is

not

to claim unless absolutely necessary (as with most power roles) and

not

to kill unless you're extremely sure of someone being scum (for example: X claims cop, Y counterclaims, town lynches X who turns out to be the real cop, at night you kill Y). It seems like the possibility of not using your ability tonight, which is the correct play, hasn't even crossed your mind.

By the way, don't you see how many people are disagreeing with your plan? They can't all be scum, so maybe, just maybe you have to reconsider your plan.

Now, the one good thing about your claim is that the town can use you as a surrogate second lynch. This means putting yourself at the disposal of the town to kill whomever we decide, and more importantly, not to kill when we tell you not to kill. The beautiful thing about this, is that if you're scum (either mafia or serial killer), we neutralize your nightkill.

So, even though I'm still inclined to believe your claim pending evidence to the contrary, I want you to agree with this plan and I want to assure that if you don't, you'll be lynched tomorrow.

PPE: So yeah, what Tarhalindur said.

[Falcone]

(T)hat Y guy would then be lynched, no need for nk from me. vig can NEVER be 100% sure or a guy who hasn't been lynched, unless he gets a another vig fake claim. so, if a vig is 100% sure (like in your example) town will also be 100% sure and lynch the guy.
so, all this you said is BS.

You realize that it's a great benefit for the town to have the possibility to have a vigilante nightkill a (semi)confirmed scum instead of having to use the next day's lynch on them, right?

yes. i will lynch whoever town decides, but i will not count your vote, panzer's vote, Tarhalindur's vote (you're my scum sucpects), and nekka's vote (he's judgement is very poor)

So, everyone who doesn't agree with your plan is either scum or stupid? Personally, I think Tarhalindur is protown. Panzerjager I'm a lot less sure about.

Also, since you say to be so happy about your vote on me, could you please explain why you think I'm scum? (Hint: "I already explained that" isn't enough.)

yeah, right.. i'd be an idiot to claim vig on L-5 on the first day if i were scum..
scum don't throw themselves in spotlight like that.

Using WIFOM logic to try and justify your claim is very suspicious, especially since you admitted yourself that you intended from the beginning to claim on Day 1.

[Falcone]

Vote: Khelvaster

Tarhalindur isn't even voting hand banana, so he's definitely not trying to lynch a claimed vig, let alone quick lynch.

I have more reasons, but I don't have time right now, I'll elaborate later.

[Falcone]

1.

My reasons for voting Khelvaster in post 219, apart from his false accusation that Tarhalindur was trying to get hand banana lynched, were the following:

* His posts 91 and 93, where he admitted panicking and voting a lurker to avoid being considered a lurker himself. It’s true that for townies it’s also important to look innocent (as Khelvaster later explained himself), but it’s weird for a townie to go out of his way to look innocent, especially so early in the game and without any pressure.

* His insistence that voting or trying to lynch a claimed vig is scummy. When someone claims, the town should determine whether they believe the claim (and thus not lynch him), or don’t believe it (and thus lynch him). In hand banana’s case, there are some good reasons to disbelieve the claim, so voting him is not suspicious

in se

. Therefore, Khelvaster’s attack on Nekka (and later on Panzerjager) is unreasonable and suspicious, especially when backed up by false dilemma’s like Khelvaster’s post 181, where he said: “One nightkill means hand banana is scum, two means he’s vig”.

2.

Now, looking over Tarhalindur’s PBPA, there’s a lot of useful and interesting thoughts (and quite some things I disagree with to be honest), but on the whole it appears that Tarhalindur’s case hinges on his interpretation of Khelvaster’s post 152. Tarhalindur is of the opinion that that post was an attack on hand banana, the claimed vig, and thus found Khelvaster guilty of contradictions later on.

I’m not going to say much more about that post before Khelvaster has had a chance to comment on Tarhalindur’s PBPA, but after rereading it several times, I’m unconvinced that this interpretation is correct. This in turn makes Tarhalindur’s whole case look rather meager.

3.

So, in conclusion, I’m keeping my vote on Khelvaster for the reasons above and pending further explanations from him. But I definitely don’t want Khelvaster to be lynched, or even to be forced to claim yet. There’s too many people that haven’t made a substantial post today.

4.

Jenter Brolincani has given me bad vibes lately. I'll look through his posts and see if I find something concrete.

5.

I also want to bump some questions I asked earlier and which weren’t answered:

To Nekka

:

Wow, I've obviously missed out on alot of content while I was away. I just want to raise suspicion back onto Hand Banana, personally I don't believe his claim. The suspicion I would like to raise is on Post 127. In the last bit, didn't he outloy his future plan to catch scum, or did I misread it?

Could you clarify this? I'm not sure what you mean by "outloy" (English not being my first language), and I'm not sure what exactly you find suspicious about hand banana's post 127.

Outloy:- I would say is the dictation of something. Basically telling someone something. Just a smart way of saying telling. Hope that helps

Why is "telling" a future plan to catch scum a scummy action?

To hand banana

:

Also, since you say to be so happy about your vote on me, could you please explain why you think I'm scum? (Hint: "I already explained that" isn't enough.)

[Falcone]

After looking through Jenter’s posts I noticed the following:

* He doesn’t post all that much actual content. See for example his posts 86 and 111.

* He seems to be afraid to make his opinions public. In fact, before his most recent post where he said he liked the case against against Khelvaster, he hasn’t voiced any suspicions at all.

* One quote stood out in particular:

Question; How many Power roles do you think we are likely to have in this game?

This is rather blatant role-fishing and deserving of suspicion.

FoS: Jenter Brolincani

Also, I have Khelvaster at only 4 votes right now: Panzer, myself, Alsleet and Tarhalindur. ~N9V~ unvoted in post 242 (which is interesting, you'd think that when you return to the thread after an absence and you unvote the prime lynch candidate, you'd give an explanation...)

[Falcone]

1.

What's with all the premature claims today? Khelvaster was only at 4 votes with 7 to lynch after all. I really don't like the way he tries to claim his way out of trouble, instead of defending himself against the accusations that were made against him. By the way, his breadcrumb of his claimed role doesn't convince me at all.

So, I'll keep my vote until Khelvaster does what he should have done in the first place, namely responding to the accusations in posts 233, 244 and 247.

2.

Hand banana, thanks for writing out your reasons for suspecting me.

2.1.

My post 55, where I asked for explanation about your posts 45, 48 and 50, was made because I wasn’t satisfied with your sudden change in opinion with regards to Nekka. In post 45, you voted him, in post 48 you asked him to elaborate, and in post 50 (without waiting for the explanation you asked for) you unvoted because you suddenly felt that Nekka was probably a townie. That seemed (and still seems) weird to me.

2.2.

I can see why you feel I was exaggerating with regards to my statement that you "had found one or three scum already", but when one makes claims like "I’m 90% sure at least one of X and Y is scum", that comes pretty close, doesn't it?

2.3.

The thing about the extra nightkill. You're right, that was a mistake from me. Of course the scum doesn’t really get an extra nighkill when they succesfully make a false vig claim. What I meant to say was that it would be bad for the town to let scum, particularly the serial killer, get away with claiming vig just because they could "prove" their ability by making a kill at night, especially if they can make a kill of their choice.

2.4.

I stand by everything else I said about your "plan" to play his vig role. My example about the two cops was an extreme situation, but still valid. It’s very useful for the town to be able to kill a confirmed scum at night, instead of wasting a lynch on them. One of the reasons is that the town doesn’t get any extra information by lynching a confirmed scum, since the other scum would be stupid not to vote their doomed buddy in such a situation.

2.5.

Your conclusions:

so here are my conclusions:
he was very causcious with other players from the beginning. he made a couple of mistakes and contradictions only when he came after me. he never attacked anyone, but me, and jumped on khlev's bandwagon with reasons (in post 247) that don't seem believable to me at least.

- I don’t think I have been any more cautious in this game than I usually am. I also don’t think being cautious is in any way a scum tell, just as I don’t believe being aggressive is a scum tell. It’s a matter of playing style.
- You haven’t actually pointed out any contradictions in my posts. I do admit I made one clear mistake (see above, 2.2.), but that’s it.
- It’s absolutely not true I didn’t attack anyone but you. I FoS’ed Elias and Khelvaster while my vote was on you, and gave my reasons. Later on, I also discussed with Nekka and Jenter. I unvoted you as soon as I saw your claim (because I believed it, obviously). All the rest of my argument with you was about the merits of your plan, which I strongly disagreed with (and still do). Disagreeing with someone isn’t the same thing as thinking they’re scum though.
- I stand by the reasons I gave to vote Khelvaster.

Are you satisfied with these explanations or do you have more questions?

3.

Question for Panzerjager, what’s your current opinion on hand banana?

[Falcone]

By the way, his breadcrumb of his claimed role doesn't convince me at all.

I found Khelvaster's hint, but I'm not convinced by it. It came relatively late in the game, making it less reliable. Furthermore, it's obscure enough that he could very well have hidden similar clues to other power roles in other posts. Anyways, there's nothing that keeps scum from breadcrumbing a role they don't have to rely on when they're in trouble, especially when, like in this case, it's extremely unlikely someone stumbles upon it without being told where to look.

Also, again, why hasn't Khelvaster given any explanation for his actions instead of making his claim? Maybe because he has none...?

[Falcone]

I'm trying to decide what's best for the town: lynching one of the claimed cops or letting both of them live.

Pro's of lynching one of them:

- If we lynch the right one, we're obviously in great shape.
- Even if we lynch the wrong one, hand banana can vig the other one tonight (I still believe hand banana is telling the truth). Trading a cop for a scum is par for the course I believe (i.e. not great but not awful either).
- We avoid other power roles being exposed tonight.

Con's of lynching one of them:

- There might be two cops in the game (not both sane obviously). This is unlikely, though not unheard of in a mini. If this is the case, we're screwed.
- If there's a mafia roleblocker out there, or if hand banana is scum (SK or mafia) and won't kill the fake cop at night, we'll have to spend tomorrow's lynch on the fake cop. This is not so good, but not dramatic either.

Pro's of letting them both live for at least one night:

- We (probably) get at least one useful investigation out of whichever cop turns out to be the real one.
- Maybe, just maybe, the scum might take care of our problem by killing the real cop at night, for fear of a lucky guilty investigation. This would free up a lynch we'd otherwise risk spending on our cop. I realize this opens us up to all kinds of WIFOM, but it's something to keep in mind.

Con's of letting them both live:

- We postpone resolving a question that inevitably will need to be resolved sooner rather than later. We also risk making it difficult for ourselves when trying to separate fake results from real ones in the morning.
- We don't seem to have a good secondary (tertiary?) lynch option at the moment. Bandwagoning someone else without good reason means risking outing more power roles.

Conclusion:

I feel lynching one of the cops is a high risk - high reward thing. Letting them both live for the moment is low risk - low reward. I feel the reward for correctly lynching the fake cop outweighs the potential dangers in this case.

Therefore, I propose the following plan: everyone says where his vote would go if he were

forced

to place it on either Khelvaster or Panzerjager today. If there's a clear majority for one of them, I think that player should be lynched, if there's no clear majority, we'll maybe have to reconsider whether or not to lynch one of them.

This plan has the added benefit that we force everyone to take a stand on this issue, which is important because otherwise we risk that the (remaining) scum would slide by and be very hard to find once the issue of the two cops is resolved.

I'll give my opinion on who of them should be lynched in my next post.

NOTE:

If you disagree with this plans (and have reasons), by all means say so. Even in that case though, I'd like you to also say who of the two cops you'd lynch if you were forced to choose one of them.

[Falcone]

I think Panzerjager is the fake cop.

This is mostly based on a gut feeling, but I know that I need to give more reasons than that, so I’ll do my best.

1.

Panzerjager twice said (or suggested) we lynch a power role with reasoning that came down to: I don’t believe them, and even you do believe them, they’re a liability to the town, and even then, they’ll probably die at night anyway, so we might as well lynch them.

Regarding hand banana:

Post 132:

First off, if he is gonna play this, I'm gonna name people and they need to claim game and reveal power roles I want to be more certain then Hand Banana is vig. On top of that if he is gonna go around having power roles claim and such I'd rather have the vig lynched, because that is a terrible strategy. Might as well mas claim and see where that gets us. I'm 100% against this strategy regardless of the townness.

(…)

Post 173:

He is SK. Look at the way he is playing. He isn't listening to the town but claimed vig and that he was all for the town. Now he is selfish and on a powertrip, which is lynchable when it's a vig cause he becomes a protown Serial Killer. What was the motive behind claiming vig so quick? He took a shot and is uncounterclaimed which totally cleared him in several people eyes, regardless of what he has said. On top of this he wants to kill me who has been probably the most active at trying to catch scum, among other things. If he is a vig, he is a detriment and should be dealt with. If he is an SK, he is again a detriment and should be dealt with.

Regarding Khelvaster:

Post 265:

Why not? He is all ready dead, and whay if he is lying, which I get the strong impression of. More so then HB's claim. A lot more so. If he claims fully he could be full of shit and if he doesn't then he is already going to die. Only reason to to reveal is if he is A Vanilla gambiting or B. Scum gambiting.

In both cases Panzerjager sounds like scum trying to get dangerous power roles lynched, with less than stellar reasoning.

Not believing someone’s claim is one thing, but saying they should be lynched regardless of their claim being true is another.

2.

Post 220:

Unvote, Vote:Khelvaster

I have a stack of reasons but between not paying attention and being a hypocrite I can stick my vote on him comfortably without having to put all my reasons out there yet.

I know this may sound slightly hypocritical, but this vote seems a little too opportunistic to me. It seems like Panzerjager noticed the potential bandwagon on Khelvaster and hopped on, without worrying about giving reasons too much.

3.

Post 251:

Wait, If he is scum wouldn't that clear me too? I was the second on the wagon and the one who drew attention to him with the lurker hunting comment.

This post feels so very wrong to me. Being too eager to being cleared is a scum tell.

4.

Post 243:

(…)

He doesn't pay attention. He hunts lurkers then contradicts himself. He votes someone who is the exact oppisite of what he said. He follows what everybody else says. Doesn't come up with anything original and tries to jump wagons, albeit unsuccessful.

Khelvaster has done anything at all protown, and HB never mentioned him. He has been too side tracked wanting to kill me he hasn't mentioned it. Why is this? Maybe because I have him fingered?

I’m not 100% sure what Panzerjager meant here, but it seems like he’s implying that Khelvaster and hand banana might be scum together. This isn’t consistent with his repeated claims that hand banana is the serial killer.

And a bit later he did it again:

Post 272:

(…)

I'm willing to give HB a chance due to Khelvaster being scum.

If you believe hand banana to be the serial killer, it’s illogical to think that Khelvaster’s being scum makes it more likely hand banana is protown.

5.

Finally, I don’t like the tone of Panzerjager’s cop claim at all:

Bullshit, Khelv. I'm cop. I am on the Falcone, he is full of shit and put it there cause he was in trouble bandwagon.

Yes I did. I responded to HB's claim to vigging me with an "I Dare you" knowing he would be fucked in the butt if he shot me. I have also actually been trying to hunt scum, unlike you who has done nothing but hope on bandwagons and play like the scum you are. Crumbing does not clear you especially when you claim 160 post or so into the game. Anyone can spell cop in a d post and then claim "I'm the really cop because I crumbed." The fact that you have experienced someone who crumbed as the real cop gives me more of a feel you crumbed because you were in trouble then if you weren't. You are scum.

It seems like he picked up on my arguments that Khelvaster’s breadcrumbs don’t necessarily mean he’s the cop, and deemed it safe enough to counterclaim, i.e. he thought it was likely he’d get the cop lynched by counterclaiming.


The one thing I’m not sure of is whether or not it would be a smart, or at least understandable, scum move to counterclaim Khelvaster. It could be that hand banana is right to think that Panzerjager felt he was the next likely lynch candidate after Khelvaster’s claim, and thought that counterclaiming was the best option.

Unvote: Khelvaster

If I would have to vote for either of the claimed cops, I’d vote for Panzerjager.

[Falcone]

I don't have time to think about this rather crazy situation in-depth right now, but I do want to put out another idea: it's possible we have two different groups of mafia. That would mean one mason pair is legit, and the other two are false. That would also mean that we have two cops...

Wait a minute... I was in a game once where there were two families of mafia, with two cops that could each find just one of both families. It was called Italian Mafia or something... LoudMouthLee was the mod...

More later.

[Falcone]

1.

I wanted to do this yesterday, but Nekka got himself killed by quoting his PM: I'm also a doc.

I'd prefer not to give my night choice before as1983fan has claimed, and before hand banana has given his night choice. Reasons should be obvious.

2.

Ac1983fan needs to claim as soon as possible. Hand banana should tell us whether he tried to kill someone last night, and why. Also, Panzerjager needs to give his result.

3.

FoS: Khelvaster

. How do you know hand banana killed Jenter?

By the way, what was your result on AlSleet? "Innocent", "Mason", "Innocent Mason", or something else?

[Falcone]

1.

I wanted to do this yesterday, but Nekka got himself killed by quoting his PM: I'm also a doc.

I'd prefer not to give my night choice before as1983fan has claimed, and before hand banana has given his night choice. Reasons should be obvious.

2.

Ac1983fan needs to claim as soon as possible. Hand banana should tell us whether he tried to kill someone last night, and why. Also, Panzerjager needs to give his result.

3.

FoS: Khelvaster

. How do you know hand banana killed Jenter?

By the way, what was your result on AlSleet? "Innocent", "Mason", "Innocent Mason", or something else?

[Falcone]

What the ...

That's lynch...

What need was there to rush trough the day? There's obviously either a non-sane or a scum cop, so why believe Panzerjager on his word? Why end the day before ac1983fan has claimed?

If Elias is scum, we should lynch his mason partner tomorrow (~N9V~), or hand banana can kill him.

[Falcone]

Mod

, I'm counting only 6 alive.

Ac1983fan needs to claim ASAP. He'll probably need replacing first though:

I haven't been paying attention to this game, its best that you get someone to replace me....

I'll go through the game again tonight and see where we stand. In the meantime, nobody vote, since it's probably lynch or lose.

[Falcone]

Guys, I agree that Tarhalindur needs to be lynched today, and I'll vote him in due time, but there's no rush and there are some important things to discuss. I suggest you unvote for the time being, to avoid some kind of unpleasant surprise.

First, here's an overview of all living players and their claims.

Falcone

claimed role: doc
other: investigated by Khelvaster N2: innocent doc

Khelvaster

claimed role: cop

Tarhalindur

claimed role: doc

ac1983fan

claimed role: ?

AlSleet

claimed role: mason w/ Nekka-Lucifer (Nekka was a good guy)
other: investigated by Khelvaster N1: innocent mason

~N9V~

claimed role: mason w/ Elias_the_thief (Elias was a good guy)

Now, first thing that needs to happen is obviously a claim from ac1983fan.

Let's not lynch before this happens.

MOD:

Any luck finding a replacement?

But regardless of his claim, I'm wondering about the set-up of this particular game. Simply put, even if it turns out we only have one cop (Khelvaster) and one doc (myself), the town is

massively

overpowered. Three mason pairs is just too much.

Now, both hand banana's theory (one of each mason pair is scum) and my theory (both of one mason pair are scum) were blown out of the water by the fact that Nekka, Rishi, Jenter and Elias all turned out to be innocent.

But I'm having a really hard time believing that all 6 masons are in fact legit. It would mean the town's overpowered to an extent the game's almost unwinnable for scum.

One possibility is that the mod chose a rather unfortunate setup (for scum, that is). But I wouldn’t assume that so lightly.

Another possibility is that Khelvaster is scum. Not impossible, but unlikely I think. His play wouldn’t make too much sense if he was scum with both Panzerjager and Tarhalindur, so I think we should trust him.

Third possibility is that AlSleet is scum. He was investigated as innocent by Khelvaster, so that means he’s either a Godfather or innocent. Given all the masons, I don’t think it’s impossible the mod made a strong scum role (mafia godfather/mason) to compensate, but to be honest, AlSleet has done very few scummy things this game. The only thing that I don’t like about him is his vote on the lynch of Elias yesterday, but perhaps that’s understandable, given Panzer’s claimed guilty investigation.

Fourth option is ~N9V~. A lot of the same reasoning applies here, except that he hasn’t been investigated. He’s also barely posted at all. What he did post doesn’t exactly make me trust him with my life, but there’s also nothing that really stands out as scummy. It’s interesting he told hand banana to vig him in the event that Elias (his partner) turned up scum though. Why would someone say that if they weren’t sure their partner would in fact be innocent? Could be a ploy to make himself look better. (“Look town, I’m even offering to be killed if that’s what it takes to win!” Except that it isn’t a real offer in those circumstances.)

So in conclusion, what will probably happen is this:

- Ac1983fan needs to claim.
- Tarhalindur needs to be lynched.
- I'll probably be nightkilled.
- Khelvaster will get to investigate someone.

Then you guys will have to decide who the last scum is. As it stands now, I think it’s probably ac1983fan, with ~N9V~ in second place. Remember that an innocent result from Khelvaster doesn’t guarantee innocence, but a guilty result probably means the investigated person really is scum.

That’s all for now.

[Falcone]

Just claim already. TYVM.

[Falcone]

Tarhalindur:

- who did you protect each night?
- is there anything out of the ordinary with your role that you want to claim (flavour or something else)?

[Falcone]

Nobody hammer Tarhalindur yet please.

He's obviously scum, but I'd like Jenter to make the substantial post he promised. There's no hurry, and we still need to find the third mafia member. The more we talk now, the more we can get an opinion on people's alignment.

Jenter, who will you block tonight and why (assuming we lynch Tarhalindur of course)?

Feel free to ask any questions of each other.

[Falcone]

Ok guys, I'll die tonight, lynch Jenter for me tomorrow, unless there turns out to be a spectacularly good reason not to.

Bye.

[Falcone]

I can't believe we lost this game.

I think the reason for it is basically three things:

1) the set-up, which was weird and probably better suited for a theme game (alignment change, triggered abilities, unreliable results for cop and doc ...).

More importantly, this was a setup that encouraged mass claiming: once one mason claimed, it was foreseeable they all would, and that the town would go on to mass claim.

2) mnowax's replacement policy: I wouldn't have let Jenter come back in the game with another role, and it was unfortunate to replace ~N9V~ who announced to be on vacation. I don't think ~N9V~ would have made the same choice in the endgame.

3) most important reason: the town's afwul play, and I take part of the blame myself.

We had practically lost the game already after believing the SK and killing of 4 masons. Then we got the lucky double crosskill, and we still couldn't win.

We shouldn't have ended day 2 without ac1983fan having claimed. It was obvious at that point either he was scum or one of the masons was scum, and if he had claimed vanilla at that point, he would have been lynched.

And Guardian, I agree with you that the info from which you needed to make a decision was contradictory, but in those situations one must go with his reads on people and not with outguessing the mod.

There was no way Khelvaster was not a cop, because then he must have been scum with Panzerjager, which doens't make an ounce of sense. And Jenter admitted to being not a member of the town (survivor) and to lying about his role! I can't understand why you believed him over a proven cop.