Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453

[Lawrencelot]

That was quick. Random

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

.

[Lawrencelot]

FOS: ryan and Aimee

, for not voting randomly.

[Lawrencelot]

FOS: ryan and Aimee

, for not voting randomly.

Why not Albert Rampage?

Because Lawrencelot has already voted for Albert B Rampage?

Yup that's why.

[Lawrencelot]

With scum-heavy do you mean there are too many scum, or that it is too hard for scum to win? I personally don't think there are too many mafia, with 3 masons I think both town and mafia have a good chance to win.

[Lawrencelot]

The tells shouldn't be all the same. If you look at scum in any game, you don't only look at who would be scum partners, normally you just look at which individuals act scummy. Masons shouldn't act the same as scum, as they are on the town side. The only thing similar is that they can both talk outside the thread, but I don't think that's what we should look most at.

[Lawrencelot]

Lowell's post reads like a great long excuse for why he personally isn't going to be working to find the scum, which he seems to think is strictly up to the masons. He says his own personal game plan for the day is to drag on conversation and to make sure the masons don't think he's scum. As Sir Tornado points out, if all the townies adopted this strategy the masons would have to do the same in order to avoid being targets. That leaves just the scum hunting scum, which is unlikely to be a winning scenario.

I am suspicious of anyone who finds reasons not to hunt scum.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell

I don't think he means that the townies should not hunt scum, although you could read his post that way. He just says that masons have more chance in finding scum than townies, which is true of course. This could happen too if all townies adapted this strategy: assume all townies act like they're not scummy. The masons would all vote for scum if everything goes right. Scum would vote for either mason or townie. If most townies didn't vote yet, they would see lots of votes on scum (from the masons) and lots of votes on mason or town (from the scum). The townies would only have to find out which one of two players is scum, rather than who of the 11 other players is scum. This is just an assumption though, and easier said than done. There might as well happen the same thing as I quoted from you.

I'm not saying that all townies should act like Lowell said, but it is a bit suspicious that you vote him for something like that. It does create discussion though, and you might be right.

[Lawrencelot]

In that case:

Vote: theopor_COD

Although I agree with most that we should vote the lurkers, we have to be careful not to lynch them without hearing what they have to say, they could be masons like others said, or just townies that forgot to post or something. So, let's just pressure them and be careful that scum won't get on top of a bandwagon. This day shouldn't end quickly at all.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote: theodor_COD

[Lawrencelot]

Adel and Lawrencelot: Why the double unvote of theodor_COD? Both of you had a vote on and than within 4 posts (72 and 76) you both unvoted? Coincidence or some chat on a new target for you two to go after?

No. I voted him because he was lurking. Adel did the same. Then Adel voted an other lurker, becase theo posted. Then I unvoted Theo because I noticed he posted. I see no reason to vote theodor now.

[Lawrencelot]

Where is everybody? I checked this thread 3 to 4 times with only this post ^^.

FOS: Everybody except ryan, theodor, bird and some others

<note: don't take this too seriously>

[Lawrencelot]

Lol, imagine every mod would keep track of votecounts this way. But nice pic, Adel.

Vote: Sir Tornado

. Just so that at least something happens.

[Lawrencelot]

Look A Papaya, make something like this post above ^. That's posting content. If you don't make that kinds of posts, that's not suspicious, but if you don't post content while they ask you, it is.

For now, I'll believe Papaya really didn't know what to post, so maybe we'll have to ask them something more detailed: A papaya, just make a post in which you give your opinion on different players, not necessarily all of them. While you do that, you might have to reread a bit of the thread.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote: Sir Tornado

[Lawrencelot]

Man, 3 pages all about the same subjects. I'm glad this game is moving along now though. My thoughts about some people:

Adel: I mostly agree with her stance on lurkers, but I don't like how she assumes A Papaya and ABR are scum. I do not agree with her on that, but I can understand her logic and I'm glad she has her own clear stance. I think she's town.

ABR: I don't agree with his stance on lurkers. I don't like his style of play. He seems a bit scummy to me, but although I don't agree with him I can understand his logic.

FOS: ABR

A Papaya: Will you just post content now? His gameplay is really bad, but I don't like that he's at lynch -2 already. I wonder if the whole discussion between Adel and ABR would have been the same if Adel knew papaya was at lynch -2. I don't think he's the lynch for this day.

For my opinion about the other players I will need to reread first.

[Lawrencelot]

Is A Papaya at lynch -1 or -2 now? I don't like this bandwagon at all. However, with so many people on it, that probably means the town wants him dead. Adel, are you that certain of papaya being scum that you want to risk being lynched next day? I don't know if you can still do anything about it, but I won't blame you if you unvote. If you keep your vote on him, I might vote A papaya too but if he is town I will vote you next day.

[Lawrencelot]

<snip>I will agree with you on the Lawrence post though, Lawrence saying that if Papaya is town and gets lynched he is immediately going after Adel doesn’t make a lot of sense to me especially after he said

that probably means the town wants him dead.

It’s almost as if he’s fishing for justification to jump on Papaya BUT also giving himself an out if he’s a townie, can’t say I like that reasoning.

Huh? How can you say I want to jump on Papaya, I am one of the few who defends A Papaya (together with Lowell, and maybe more). It's true that you could see it as a contradiction, so I'll clarify: it probably means the town wants him dead, but I do NOT agree with this, so if he turns out to be town Adel is suspicious to me. I don't want to lynch A Papaya, I don't know where you read that. I defended Papaya most of this day, although I certainly don't like his style of play and not posting content.

PS: I don't want Papaya to claim.

[Lawrencelot]

How many times do I have to say it... I do NOT want to vote A Papaya! That's why I would be suspicious of Adel if A Papaya would turn out to be town. Of course, if he's scum, I would not be suspicious of Adel. So, for the last time, I will NOT vote Papaya (unless a deadline occurs or he does something more scummy than not posting content), but I do not like his behaviour.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm claiming.

I'm a mason. My fellow masons can prove it true.

Not sure if I buy this, but I would unvote now if I had my vote on you. Let's see the possibilities:

Papaya is townie: this is a very stupid move, like theopor said, and although I wouldn't be surprised if he did this, I wonder why he would say "my fellow masons can prove it true". Townie is not very likely.

Papaya is mason: From his previous post, we cannot conclude that he is no mason. But, why would he want his fellow masons to prove it true? To save his own skin, but he was at lynch -2. If his fellow masons would indeed come out to prove it, we wouldn't have much chance in winning the game.

Papaya is scum: This would be a good strategy for scum. If a mason doesn't show up, he is not lynched, if a mason does, the scum can kill a mason tonight. I think this has a slightly higher chance than him being a mason, but not enough to vote him.

In short: I am a bit more suspicious of Papaya, but still not enough to vote him.

IGMEOY: A Papaya

[Lawrencelot]

This game goes with a much greater speed than all of the other games I'm in, so apologies for my low activity (which isn't true, I check this game more than twice a day). I'll respond to some quotes and then share my thoughts on who is who, you'll be surprised maybe.

Question for everyone: if A Papaya and Albert are lying about being masons, is it in the best interest of the town for a real mason to step forward? Why or why not?

Yes, I think it is. A Papaya and Albert are almost certainly of the same alignment, if a real mason says they are not mason, we know 2 scum while the scum knows 1 mason. Advantage for the town.

Goddam it.

If papaya claimed mason, the other masons needed to KEEP QUIET!!!

We'd have believed him if nothing was said. The idea was that someone woudl counterclaim IF he was lying...

Whatever. I'll be back Tuesday.

QFT. I think A Papaya and Albert are the worst masons ever, if they are telling the truth. That's why i think A Papaya and Albert are lying. I would like Ripley's and Theo's thoughts on this: it seems to me that you both believe ABR and Papaya, but do you also think they play well as masons? A Papaya claimed while everybody was going to look at other players, ABR claimed while most people believed A Papaya's claim.

Does anyone else think Albert's play to date in this game hasn't been any good?

Yup, here's one.

Adel wrote:
Question for everyone: if A Papaya and Albert are lying about being masons, is it in the best interest of the town for a real mason to step forward? Why or why not?


Thing is if Papaya was scum, why on earth would Albert then claim mason aswell, it makes absolutely no sense for Albert to claim mason if he and Papaya are both scum. I don't think I'd believe a counter-claim to be honest.

Theo is on the same side as ABR I think. I agree it doesn't make sense for Albert to claim mason if they were scum, but claiming mason while they were both mason makes just as much sense. ABR thought A Papaya was getting lynched or something, so claiming mason while he's scum makes as much sense as claiming mason while he's mason.

ABR: I'm not quite sure why you are on a crusade to take me down but I'll play along because your play for the most part has been lurking and than POOF, Papaya claims and you are out of the woodwork on me for my vote on him. I think one or both of you are lying right now and your threat on the town to vote your choice or you will expose the "alleged" third mason is an extremely anti town play and I know I'm not the only one to see it. Lowell makes a good point in 270, as the 2nd mason shouldn't have said anything. Now we have two mason's exposed to the three scum out there.

I'm with ryan on this, except for this: not one or both are lying, but if they are lying they are both lying. ABR and A Papaya are almost definately the same alignment.

<snip>Vote for Adel.

If you don't do what I ask, I will reveal the third member of the masonry within 72 hours.

Don't make me push the red button. 72 hours. Time is of the essence. The clock is ticking. Etc.

WTH, how can people still believe your mason after this post?

FOS: Ripley and Theopor

for believing ABR. ABR is scum, a real mason wouldn't reveal a different mason.

If Papaya is scum, which for the record I don't think he is. Why on earth would Albert come out and back up his claim, if Albert was scum with Papaya, he would surely just stay quiet.

For the same reason as why he came out to back up his claim while they were mason. I don't see why you think he can't be scum, it all doesn't make sense, but being mason for them does not make more sense than being scum.

In the list below I will also tell who I think is mason, because I don't think it matters anyway with all these claims. If people believe me, this list won't help scum much.

Lawrencelot's list of who is scum and who is town (Llowisawit):

-A Papaya: scum
-ABR: SCUM! his behaviour is the opposite of townie or mason. He reveals himself as mason while he didn't need to. He threatens us with revealing the third mason. He is a bit too eager to get Adel lynched: scum wants everybody lynched except their scum group, mason does NOT want everybody lynched except their mason group.
-Theopor_cod: Scum. It's a bit obvious that he defends ABR and A Papaya. Defending them is ok, but he doesn't do it the same way as a townie would do. He excludes the possibility that ABR claims mason while being scum, for example.
-Ripley: i don't know. He agrees with theo, mostly, but it's not the same way. I think he's most likely town who has a different opinion than me (maybe it'll change after he reads this post, idk).
-Adel: mason. In particular because of her questions of what masons should do.
-ryan: mason. Adel and ryan defended each other often.
-Lowel: townie or mason. Lowell has about the same opinion as me, as far as I know.
-bird111: no idea, probably townie
-Aimee: no clue, probably townie
-Sir Tornado: dunno, probably townie
-Lawrenelot: townie. If I would read this post as someone else, I would think I'm mason, but I'm a townie.

Vote: Albert B. Rampage
Fos: A Papaya and Theopor_cod

I could vote one of the other 2 instead of ABR, it doesn't matter much. I prefer an ABR lynch first, he really needs to be silenced.

[Lawrencelot]

@Sir Tornado: I appreciate you don't FOS me, while your reasoning about me is logical, and I respect your opinions, but, how can you be 100% sure about ABR's claim? Same goes for Ripley and Theo, I don't understand how you guys can believe ABR so easily. To me, he is scummier than scummy.

Sir Tornado seems to be in the same group as ripley and theo I think, and because there are no more than 3 scum, I'll

UnFOS: Theopor and Ripley

. My suspicion of ABR and A Papaya stays, as I am not convinced by the post above but I can see the logic of Theo, Ripley and SirTornado. I hope you understand why I do not believe ABR.

So, my list above changed a bit, one scum is gone. So to make it 3 again, I agree with SirTornado: it's likely one of the lurkers is scum too.

[Lawrencelot]

6 pages in less than 24 hours? This game is not normal, I hate all those games where nothing happens, but this is a bit too much. I won't ask for a replacement though, I have enough time but this game takes more effort than I thought. In this post, I have read anything except page 15 and higher.

For the record, I did not know Adel claimed townie when I wrote my famous post (308 was it?). I understand that that post was not logical about the masons, but my suspicion on ABR and Papaya stays. If Adel is a townie, then I think ryan is likely to be a townie too, and the masons are mostly lurking. This is not that likely (but it is possible), so I don't know who is mason now, but I still don't believe ABR and papaya.

On the counterclaim issue: 2 people believe ABR because there has not been a counter-claim. If I were a mason, I would not have counterclaimed, unless a mason was close to a lynch.

I really think that the answer here is quite simple. Today, we lynch Adel/Ryan/Lawrencalot. If one of them is scum, then we're good to go.

If the one we lynch is town, then we try the second possible group, of Aimee/bird, etc.

And if none of those are scum, we take it from there. It seems to me to be worth finding out if one of Adel/ryan/lawrencalot is scum before day 2.

Remember what I said earlier? Scum wants everybody dead except their own group, masons don't. With so many possibilities a mason would never want to lynch someone, scum would.

Did anyone see a post of A Papaya that did NOT look scummy? Since everyone believes A Papaya is on the same side as ABR, you must understand that I think these 2 are scum. If you believe one of the claims you must think they are both masons, but I don't believe them.

Unvote

, with the intention to put my vote on one of these 2 when I read everything.

[Lawrencelot]

Aaaaaaargh, I made a post with reactions to like 20 quotes, then I pressed preview, got an error and then it was gone... I copied everything, because I get these errors more often, but then I copied something else while I got the error, before I had a chance to paste it again...

Alright, what do I do now. I'll just make a summary of everything I wanted to post, since it cost me more than half an hour to make the post, seriously. Heres in short what I wanted to post, in fact it were reactions to a lot of quotes starting from page 15.

Summary:
ABR is scum. Arguments against this statement: a) he claimed mason b) there was no counterclaim. Arguments for this statement: 1. claiming mason doesn't mean he's mason 2. he claimed it at a moment when it was not necessary 3. a papaya did only make anti-town posts and ABR is on A Papaya's side 4. ABR threatened the town 5. ABR is 100% sure of Adel's alignment all the time 6. ABR wants to lynch Adel all the time 7. ABR insults people. Counterarguments: a) scum can also claim mason b) if I was mason, I wouldn't have counterclaimed until a mason was close to a lynch b) the inactives could be mason too.

A Papaya is scum too, obviously.

The third one could be either theo, ripley or a lurker. Since not both theo and ripley can be scum, I don't know who the third member is.

Adel is townie. a) she's no mason b) she acts like a townie c) she tries to hunt scum d) she is not 100% sure of anybody's alignment. Only argument against this statement that I know of is this one: 1. She wanted to "clear ryan".

I am against a massclaim. We either lynch ABR, A Papaya or we make up a plan that does not reveal a mason, neither reveals someone on A Papaya and ABR's side (since that wouldn't help if they speak the truth, and that wouldn't be needed yet if they are scum). So, no claims please. I'm fine with a mason claim if any mason is close to being lynched though. Heres a diagram I made:

Scum----------------------------Neutral------------------------------Adel's side
ABR
A Papaya
-----------Theopor
-----------Ripley
-----------------------------------SirTornado
-----------------------------------Lurkers
---------------------------------------------------ryan
---------------------------------------------------Lowell?
--------------------------------------------------------------Lawrencelot
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Adel

I really commented on 20-30 quotes, and I really hate it that it is gone. Forgive me, and please hate my computer.

[Lawrencelot]

@Lawrencalot:
What.The.Hell?

So let's see. If Adel gets close to being lynched, the "REAL" masons should claim, right? Alright...so let's wait and see what happens.

And how are Theopor and Ripley scummy, again?

Only if Adel is mason, and she says she is no mason. I don't expect the real masons to claim just for the sake of a townie, and possibly the real masons are with theo and ripley and the others, and think Adel is scum. Or the real masons are on vacation, because not everybody is posting. So I don't think getting Adel close to a lynch will reveal the masons, if that's what you're after.

Theopor and Ripley appear town to me because they appear to have the same opinions, and they can't be both scum. They both believe your and ABR's claim, while ignoring the fact that you 2 could be scum claiming mason. And even if they only did believe ABR's claim and your claim, they just follow ABR in attacking Adel and ryan and that is something I do not agree with. Their arguments to believe the claims are flawed, and I don't understand why they still believe ABR, only because no one counterclaimed which is something I gave a reaction to multiple times. Too bad I don't have the quotes anymore, but I hope this makes it clear to you. If Ripley and Theo have other reasons for believing ABR, I would like to know. SirTornado does have other reasons (but I forgot what they were) that's why I don't think SirTornado is scummy.

[Lawrencelot]

As everyone would expect, I admit I was really wrong on who was scum etc. Ryan being mafia makes the chance that ABR and Papaya are mafia less than 1%. They both acted very scummy the whole game, but I will believe them now. Luckily it took only a mafia kill for me to believe it, no mason is killed. So, I have less doubt that ABR and Papaya are mafia, but there is one important question left:

why isn't ABR or Papaya nightkilled if they are mason?

For the record, although I now believe ABR and Papaya, I still don't think Adel is that scummy. She acted very townie-ish to me, and although she was wrong, there were more people wrong (more than 3 I thought), so that doesn't necessarily mean she's scum. But, Adel, me and Lowell are most suspicious, but I don't think we should vote one of us right away, at least until the lurkers catched up.

@ABR 1: I don't think we should lynch anybody yet. Wait for the lurkers.
2: Alright.
3: No. I will not let you lead the town. No one should do that, and especially not you. Even though I believe you are mason now, you definately did not act pro-town the whole game, and you definately don't deserve to become the leader of the town. If I wasn't wrong all the time, I would laugh at this proposal, but I have no rights to do that now.

[Lawrencelot]

Well, Lowell sure had a change of mind. It is easy to say all those things at this point. After the ABR claim you weren't like this. Now it's almost out of the question that ABR and Papaya are scum, but back then... I hope you can see why me and Adel didn't believe it. And how come you now congratulate ABR for playing well, while it appeared to me that you found his actions terrible after he claimed? (like the fake dealine etc)

I admit I took Adel's side. But now I'm on the side of the others, like ripley and such. If Adel turns out to be scum, you can lynch me if you want, although I am a townie. I still think Adel acted very townie-like during the game, although Aimee's post almost persuaded me. In another game, I was also focusing solely on voting lurkers, but although I was scum in that game, I wasn't doing that because I was scum. I won't vote Adel yet, she has a right to defend herself (and I hope you give me that right when I will get lynched. But my important question remains unanswered:

Why is ABR or A Papaya not nightkilled if they are masons?

[Lawrencelot]

Ok, if this were a theme game now was the time for my superspectacular claim, but it's an open game. I am a townie (like I said earlier). Since this doesn't defend me well, I will give some arguments. But first I would like to add my surprise at Adel voting me. Adel, I was the one who backed you up all the time remember? I even thought you were a townie in this day. Aside from yourself, I should be the last one for you to vote. I think Adel is scum trying to benefit from my bandwagon.

FOS: Adel

Now, the arguments:
-I am not sure if I would have told the mod if ryan pmed me during the day, although I am honest. I maybe would not notice it, since I am unorganized, absent-minded, and get a lot of pms. But I admit that ABR's post where he votes me is fully logical, since I don't know who ryan would have pmed else.
-But, if you think ryan pmed me, ABR, you can show me where I changed my strategy, or where ryan changed his. If he pmed me, it would have been important, else he would have pmed much earlier.
-If I am scum, who would be scum with me? Adel is an easy solution, so I ask you why you vote me instead of Adel. I think I am going to vote Adel, not to distance myself but because I also think she is scum now.

Vote: Adel

. I am fine with an Adel lynch, and I promise this vote will stay unless the whole town is going after someone else, or if there will be more mason claims or something (which I doubt). I think this argument is good enough to save my skin for a day or a half day. This is a promise and a strong proposal: if you want to lynch me or Adel, lynch Adel first!
-I am a townie, and Adel betrayed me...
-Look for the ones who join my bandwagon without good reasons. ABR had a good reason, Adel did not, Lowell did not, Aimee did not but said she could remove it, now let's see what the rest will do.

Ok, ABR is now totally cleared to me, he is not even acting scummy again.
@Lowell: I thought you were on the anti-ABR side, but after a small reread it appears you weren't. Sorry about that.

And the answer to my question (why ABR/Papaya aren't killed) is not a completely right answer (that it would confirm them as masons) because no one has questioned them being masons this day.

Now let's start lynching Adel! (If the town wants it)

[Lawrencelot]

A Papaya, I am not accusing you and ABR, did you even read my posts? And did anyone else even read my last post? If you think I'm scum, tell me who is scum with me. I'll say we lynch him instead of me, and I'll vote that person too. If I were scum, the only situation where I would do this is if I were godfather, which I'm not of course. In this setup, no scum is more important than the other.

Why is A Papaya or ABR not nightkilled? "So they are not cleared" is not a right answer, because no one doubts them anymore. If that was the answer, then there should be someone among us saying that it's possible they are no masons, but I don't hear anyone say that.

I'll use the same strategy as Adel does: you tell me who to vote, and I'll vote him unless it's me. Now you got 2 people who do this, which gives the town much more power. If you lynch me, you'll lose a person who wants to vote scum, and you will not lynch scum.

Btw, I don't think the case against me is that strong. The main reasons are some scummy things I said D1, but who didn't say scummy things D1? And why are you not going after Adel anymore?

[Lawrencelot]

Lowell, please stop pretending me and Adel are scum for sure. I voted Adel now, and I will keep my vote on her to prove I'm not scum with her. Now that Aimee is the target, and people think Aimee is scum with me, I think I might vote for her to prove that I'm not scum with her. And the difference with distancing myself from someone is: I will keep the vote, and only remove it if town wants it.

So, this is my question for the town: if you believe I am not scum with Adel, can I put my vote on Aimee now? Or will you think I am scum with Adel when I do that? In other words, I don't mind that Adel is lynched, and I don't mind that Aimee is lynched. You tell me who to vote. Here are my possible scenarios:

Aimee/Adel
Adel/Bird
Aimee/Bird
Aimee/Lowell
Lowell/Bird

I think Lowell is scummy because he still wants to lynch me because he thinks me and Adel are both scum. If you think that, I will keep my vote on Adel if you like. Bird can be scum because we know nothing about him, it's just less likely he's scum than that the others are scum.

So, for the last time: don't vote me if you think both me and Adel are scum, because I will keep my vote on Adel if I have to. Don't vote me if you think both me and Aimee are scum (which I wouldn't find very likely if I was in your position), because I will vote Aimee and keep my vote on her if you want.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote, Vote: Aimee

I also would like to ask everybody who suspects me this: if I was lynched and turned out to be scum, who would you think is my partner? And more important: if I was lynched and turned out to be town, who would you suspect?

Aimee, it would be a little late for me to just vote whoever I find suspicious. I did that on D1, and I was wrong. My vote on Adel does proof something if I would keep it on her all the time. I could also not vote at all, and hammer the one I am suspected of being the scumpartner of. That would be a better defense for me. I don't think people see me and you as scumpartner, so my vote on you now is because the masons want it, and I don't think you are that pro-town. So, if the masons say I have to put my vote on someone, I would do that as long as it's not me. Because I don't see how the masons would ask me to vote ABR, A Papaya or Ripley, and as long as they all agree there is a good chance that they're right. I will allow the one I vote to defend himself though, so I might unvote if someone had the possibility to hammer without the one I vote defending himself.

[Lawrencelot]

Ok, since I'm not sure if I can post tomorrow, I will say this if this is my last post:
if I'm the lynch today, ask everybody who voted me who they think is scum with me if I'm scum and who they suspect if I am a townie, which I am. Use that information to lynch the real scum. If someone who votes me does not give this information, pressure him.

[Lawrencelot]

Er, ABR, there are many scummier things I did than the example you gave here. That example isn't worth it to vote me.

I am still a townie, and I can't give a much better defense than I already did, except: if I was scum, I would have killed ABR. Not that it makes a big difference. Lynch me, and town will lose, because I am no scum. I also don't know who is scum, so I am not very useful. The only things I can do for town now is answering questions, cuz I don't think I can find scum. Lowell's style seems a bit scummy to me, but I'm not sure if this opinion is objective.

[Lawrencelot]

Look, ABR thinks I could be scum with Sir Tornado, if I were in someone else's position I could think that too. But Lowell thinks I'm scum with Adel, which I find ridiculous. I wanted to lynch Adel at the beginning of D2, and you can't call that distancing because I promised I would keep my vote on her if you wanted it.

I will follow Ripley's advice, and not follow anyone.

Vote: Lowell

FOS: Bird111

ABR, do you still think town can win if I get lynched? Cuz I am town, and when I get lynched one mason will be left while 2 scum are left. I will ask the same question I asked D2: who will you go after when I turn out to be town?

[Lawrencelot]

EBWOP: I mean, I will follow Ripley's advice, and not follow anyone's voting.

[Lawrencelot]

Confirm vote: Lowell

Lowell is the most scummy to me, and I think he's worth lynching today, although not quick-lynching. So don't pile it up, we need to hear what bird has to say.

@Lowell: if you would succeed in getting me lynched, and everybody would see that I am town, would you take the responsibility? How would you defend yourself next day if this happened?

[Lawrencelot]

Note: didn't read Sir T's posts in this last post, but that argument against Lowell is good too. I wonder why he thinks Lowell is scum with Adel, which is possible, but it's also possible bird is scum.

[Lawrencelot]

Where did I say "lynch him after me"? And you don't need to remind me how townies act, I'll remind you: townies don't mind answering questions that are directed at them, even if the person who asks it is scum in their eyes. So, I'll ask you again: how would you defend yourself when I turn out to be town?

Lowell's behaviour is really not townie-like. Does anyone know if he behaves like this in other (finished) games too? In another game I saw someone behave exactly the same way, and he was scum. All those exclamations, saying things are so obvious and every other option is idiotic, these things are just not townie-ish.

[Lawrencelot]

Yes, he behaves like this in every, every, every single game.

Well if that's true, I

Unvote

. His behaviour could be seen townie-like to me, but it didn't because it is very different from what I normally see as townie-like. If he always plays like this, I guess he isn't necessary scum in this game. Still got my eye on Lowell though. And I still think he could be a scum pair with bird. Depends on what bird will say.

[Lawrencelot]

Yes, he behaves like this in every, every, every single game.

Well if that's true, I

Unvote

. His behaviour could be seen townie-like to me, but it didn't because it is very different from what I normally see as townie-like. If he always plays like this, I guess he isn't necessary scum in this game. Still got my eye on Lowell though. And I still think he could be a scum pair with bird. Depends on what bird will say.

Mod: please prod bird1111

[Lawrencelot]

Just posting that I'm still here.

[Lawrencelot]

Interesting. I don't agree with all arguments against Sir Tornado, but there was one quote that I found very interesting:

"Are Masons and Scum allowed to PM during the day time?"

In case some of you forgot, and Jalyn didn't read it yet: ryan was modkilled for pming someone during daytime, right? Ryan was mafia. Sir Tornado could be the one who ryan pmed. Jalyn, could you tell me the page of this quote?

[Lawrencelot]

No, after these 2 quotes from this page my suspicion of SirT is gone:

A possibly valid point, but Sir Tornado was asking this in direct response to ABR saying that he had PMed A Papaya and told him not to reveal that he was a mason. Both of the posts where he mentions the Daytalking are on page 13, posts 311 & 315.

I asked that question on June 9th on Page 13th. Ryan was modkilled 30 hours later in page 21. We had a vote count from the mod in between that (much before the modkill in fact), and I assure you that I would not have waited that much time to inform the mod had I been a scum and had ryan tried to communicate with me outside the game.

And I have a new argument for my own defense, yay! (although attention is going away from me now). ABR, you are hesitating between Adel and me again. You were doing that on D2 as well iirc. Now, scum decided not to kill you. Maybe it was because you were going after me and Adel. Wait, now that I think about this argument, it has some flaws because scum killed A Papaya (who also went after me and Adel). But anyway: if I was scum, I would have killed ABR.

[Lawrencelot]

No, then I would have said it earlier, because I'm not under pressure now. But the argument isn't that strong, I admit.

[Lawrencelot]

The main reason why I would see Sir T as scum, is because there are too few alternatives. Jalyn doesn't seem scummy, so only Lowell, Sir T, Adel and me are left, of which 2 are scum. For me, there are only 3 left of which 2 are scum, and for the other townie there are also just 3 left. I would vote Sir T only because there are not enough other options, so I won't vote him right now.

[Lawrencelot]

2) I'm falling off the "Adel and Lawrence" wagon, sadly. Thanks to the obfuscation of others, I now actually think one of them is innocent. I CERTAINLY don't think they both are, however, and it shocks me that some people do. We ought to lynch one of these idiots today. I still say Lawrence is the play.

One of us is certainly innocent, and that one is me. If I were in your place, I could also believe that the 2 of us are not both innocent. But, the one thing that's wrong with your arguments (that's not in this post, but some pages back) is that you don't want to take responsibility when I turn out to be town.

Mmmm keep yourself from calling players 'idiots', we're in a friendly environment after all

Thanks, but I didn't really mind (and you're not the one to say that, looking at D1). After all, we'll see who the idiot is if Lowell would succeed lynching me.

IF Adel/Lawrence arent' the last 2 scum, then SIR T is my next most likely candidate.

Adel and Lawrence have been two peas in a pod all the way up to the beginning of D2, when they both subtly suggested the town should look at me as a possible lynch. Someone called them on it and since then they've done some mad distancing. I don't buy it.

1. Could be, but we don't have that many shots.
2. So you going after me and Adel is basically OMGUS? Btw, I saw you as a possible lynch because I thought you were close to Adel iirc, but I admitted I was wrong because I noticed Adel was only trying to be on your side, not vice versa.
3. If I was scum with Adel I wouldn't reveal my views so obviously D1, to go after ABR and A Papaya and backing up Adel. I would have distanced myself from her (well not distanced, rather ignored) at the beginning of D1 if I was her scumpartner.

If Sir T were to turn up town, Jayln would be the obvious partner of Law. Too obvious?
If Law were to turn up town, I think Sir T + Lowell would be the pick.

If Sir T was town, why would I be scum? That would only be because there are not enough possibilities, but you could be scum too if Sir T was town. Or Lowell. Not Jalyn.
If I turn up town, you should go after Lowell, while you still can.

[Lawrencelot]

It's not sure I get lynched, and if I don't get lynched I don't turn up town . I said when rather than if every post before btw.

[Lawrencelot]

Me strong-> Lowell
Me mild-> Adel
Me low->Sir T
Me not->Jalyn (and masons)

[Lawrencelot]

According to the diagram, Lowell and Adel have most suspicion on them. Maybe that's why Lowell thinks these diagrams are not useful? I think they're very useful, it's just that you don't have to base your opinion entirely on the diagrams, but they could help a lot.

Vote: Lowell

. Not because of the above, but I voted him earlier, then unvoted because his behaviour was like this in every game, but now I think his behaviour is scummy nonetheless, I shouldn't try to metagame too much.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote. Vote: SirTornado

<Waits for cookies>

To me, the chance that he's scum is more than 50%. About Lowell, I'm more than 75% sure, about Adel I'm about 25% sure. There aren't that many other options, so now that I think of it SirT was second on my list most of the time, but I focused too much on Lowell.

Hammered (not that I'm proud, but so that the mod knows the day should end)

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote. Vote: SirTornado

<Waits for cookies>

To me, the chance that he's scum is more than 50%. About Lowell, I'm more than 75% sure, about Adel I'm about 25% sure. There aren't that many other options, so now that I think of it SirT was second on my list most of the time, but I focused too much on Lowell.

Hammered (not that I'm proud, but so that the mod knows the day should end)

I'm sure that he will use a WIFOM argument in his defense, but I'm not buying it.

vote:Lawrencelot

for bussing his scummate.

Oh come on. I don't mind if someone votes me for good reason, but for bussing? I never said a bad thing about SirT, then I hammered him because I was out of options (and it was the good thing I now know), and you call that bussing?

People, if you vote me, please come up with something better than this.

For me, only 2 people are left (well Jalyn too), but I really don't have a clue who of Lowell and Adel are more likely to be SirT's partner. I think, because Adel didn't play many games yet, she would be more likely to be ryan's partner (as in D1) than Lowell. So,

Vote: Adel

. But looking at SirT only, I don't know who is his most likely partner.

[Lawrencelot]

Only two things occured between these two posts- Sir T was revealed to be scum, and I voted for Lawrencelot. Was he lying about his suspicion towards Lowell yesterday? Why isn't he 75% sure about Lowell now? Something here does not compute.

Now I am not 75% sure about Lowell, because I don't think it's that likely that he is SirT's partner. It is possible though. What do you mean with lying my suspicion towards Lowell? I voted you now, because SirT and ryan are scum, therefore you are a more likely scumparter than Lowell. Before I knew SirT was scum (and before bird got replaced), I thought Lowell was more likely scum than you. What's scummy about this?

I'm 100% sure at this point that the last mafia member is Adel or Lawrence. I'm leaning towards Lawrence, particularly given Adel's last post.

Lol, of course you are sure about that. And I'm 100% sure (well a bit less because Jalyn still can be scum) that either you or Adel is scum. And Adel is probably 100% sure that either you or me is scum.

[Lawrencelot]

Only two things occured between these two posts- Sir T was revealed to be scum, and I voted for Lawrencelot. Was he lying about his suspicion towards Lowell yesterday? Why isn't he 75% sure about Lowell now? Something here does not compute.

Now I am not 75% sure about Lowell, because I don't think it's that likely that he is SirT's partner. It is possible though. What do you mean with lying my suspicion towards Lowell? I voted you now, because SirT and ryan are scum, therefore you are a more likely scumparter than Lowell. Before I knew SirT was scum (and before bird got replaced), I thought Lowell was more likely scum than you. What's scummy about this?

In the post where you hammered Sir T you said that you were 75% sure Lowell was guilty, and you were 25% sure that I was guilty. Why did your opinion of our scumminess swing to the point that you are more suspicious of me than you are of Lowell? If there is evidence linking me to Sir T, I'm sure the other players would like to hear it, and of there is evidence establishing that Sir T and Lowell can not be scummates I know I would like to hear it.

I think you made a mistake in thinking that I would be an easier target for a mislynch than Lowell. Your vote for Sir T came so late, after it was clear that he was either going to be hammered by another player or the deadline.

I had a feeling you were more on SirT's side than Lowell, but I don't have evidence. But for the same reason, if SirT turned up town, I think I would've voted Lowell. But with the latest post, like this one, I am less sure. Your argument (last paragraph) isn't bad, therefore

Unvote: Adel

. If I get lynched: I don't know who of Adel and Lowell is more scummy. Now they're 50-50 for me. And theres still Jalyn. Town shouldn't lynch me now, maybe if they lynched me earlier they could get some information from it, but now I cannot say who I find more scummy.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm finding Lowell much more scummy than Adel now, as he wants to rush this day and Adel does not. I'm fine with a Lawrencelot lynch if Lowell will be next (because I am town). Be careful though: there are 4 townies left (I'll just call Ripley a townie now) vs 1 scum, lynch me and next day you will have 2 townies left vs 1 scum. Because scum will most probably kill Ripley, Adel Lowell and Jalyn are left, and if these 3 are left I'm not sure town will make the right choice.

[Lawrencelot]

I don't know why the things you bolded look scummy. Maybe the things you bolded were

not

scummy, and the rest was? Well, I'll give a reaction anyway, but I didn't think it was worth commenting on.

We either lynch ABR, A Papaya or we make up a plan that does not reveal a mason

I really thought they were not the masons, which isn't scummy because at that point they both acted really really scummy. I thought there were other real masons, which I didn't want to get revealed.

So, no claims please. I'm fine with a mason claim if any mason is close to being lynched though

What I found strange was that others kept saying: "why didn't any other mason counter-claim if they are not the masons?" I thought, while I thought ABR and Papaya were not masons, that the "real" masons would only come out if any of them were close to a lynch. I wanted to protect the masons, which I believed exist, until D2.

If Adel turns out to be scum, you can lynch me if you want, although I am a townie

People saw me on Adel's side, so I offered a Lawrencelot lynch, but only after an Adel lynch.

But my important question remains unanswered: Why is ABR or A Papaya not nightkilled if they are masons?

This was an important question, although then I already believed ABR and A Papaya were masons. No one gave a good answer, even up until now, but now the question isn't important anymore.

So, I don't really understand your accusation against me Jalyn. If it's just that I didn't believe the masons, you can accuse me for that, although I gave my reactions to that many many times.

[Lawrencelot]

Yes. I think I'm gonna vote him, but I'm finding it very hard to be sure who is scum now. He doesn't seem to find it hard, so that's another argument.

Vote: Lowell.

[Lawrencelot]

You didn't want the "real masons" revealed so you thought it would be a good idea to lynch one of the two claimed masons on no evidence what-so-ever. Would you lynch a claimed cop on day 1 with no counterclaim or would you wait for a reason to do so? This can be read like you wanted to lynch one of the masons without forcing one of your scum buddies to fake claim, as you knew no one else would counterclaim.

Yes I would lynch a claimed cop if he acted scummy as hell. I had enough reasons to vote them, but I still turned out to be wrong in the end. I didn't know no one else would counterclaim, because I believed there were "real" masons.

Your other arguments are good, I can't defend myself against that. I was tied to Adel and SirTornado.

[Lawrencelot]

In short, these are the reasons to vote (correct me if I'm wrong, didn't do a reread):

-Lawrencelot: not believing the masons D1, pretends to be distancing from Adel D2.
-Adel: not believing the masons D1, connecting herself to ryan and Lowell, lurkerhunt D1.
-Lowell: lurkerhunt D1, pushing hard for a Lawrencelot quick-lynch.

Five players are alive. If we mislynch, Ripley (probably) will get killed N4, and we have 2 townies vs 1 scum left. What do you guys think of this plan: we lynch me, if I'm town we lynch Lowell, if I'm scum we lynch Adel. Would this work? We would only be screwed if Jalyn was scum.

[Lawrencelot]

er, if you are scum we win.

Oh yeah lol, I already thought there was something about my plan. But still, my point stays the same: I don't mind lynching me if town knows who to lynch next (and if that's a logical choice).

[Lawrencelot]

What's scummy about that? She asked if Ripley and Jalyn agreed with it, not you. I'm willing to self-hammer if Ripley and Jalyn agree that Lowell's next, although they could just hammer me themselves.

[Lawrencelot]

Adel, well played, and the other scum too. Maybe ryan was being handled a bit harsh, I think this punishment was enough. He should definately not get banned for this in my opinion, as it is something that can also happen by accident (double accounts for example normally don't happen by accident).

I really messed up in this game, but fortunately I know the reasons for it. 1. I was looking too much at player's behaviour, rather than their arguments and relationships to others. 2. I was comparing the game too much with other games. In a different game, someone who acted like Adel was town, and someone who acted like Lowell was scum. I didn't get used yet to people who act very sure of themselves as town (like Lowell, and LouthmouthLee and Sarcastro in other games for example). Mainly for this, I was suspicious of Lowell: I always say that scum are more sure of themselves than townies. 3. I wasn't flexible enough. At the start, I thought Adel was town, but although I was getting more suspicious of her during D2 and 3, I didn't let go my first feeling, which I should have.

I apologize for messing up, although that was not the main reason why we lost. It was a sum of things, like A Papaya and ABR being scummy at the start, and Aimee's mislynch, the endgame decision of course, and my faults too.

It was a fun game, and it was balanced in my opinion. I learned a lot from it.