Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453

[theopor_COD]

vote Bird1111

Bird posting . . . very bizarre

[theopor_COD]

Bird's putting effort into a game, very strange.

Reading, something shortly.

[theopor_COD]

Ok as a stream

Random votes - like 10 of em.

Sir Tornado answers question directed at Lawrencelot. Adel seems happy to take the reason, mind it was a nothing kind of question.

Some discussion between Lowell and Lawrence on the game numbers. Bird reckons its balanced, some more chat on it, nothing much stands out.

Adel pulls up a previous game, town performed pathetically, I'm not overly sure what he/she is getting at, possibly looking for advice, mind it could be just newbieness. Gets the advice from Lawrence.

Ryan asks some decent questions to get things moving, Adel's obv done some research. Lowell answers the question, more thoery on masons etc. Sir Tornado ringing a few alarms nothing major tho. I like Ripley's post 38. Something scummy about Ryan posting this just after Ripley's quote.

I am suspicious of anyone who finds reasons not to hunt scum.

unvote

No suspect as of yet but I'm sure I'll have one soon. The reason for my unvote is we are well past the "random vote stage" so it's time to start huntin some scum. 8)

Seems to be trying too hard to fit in with Ripley's ideals. Lawrence kinda of defends Lowell.

I think they are a useful tool for getting reactions, though you do have to watch out for scum-driven ones

Be nice if we knew which ones they were at the time!

Some chat over bandwagons. Adel brings up the suspicion of lurkers. Ryan agrees. Lowell posts, Ryan then votes a lurker. Ripley appears good so far liking him. Bird defends the lurkers which is good being as he usually is one, Bird's posting actually concerns prob need to read up on him. Not keen on ALbert 54, from a metagame point of view I've seen him much more wagon-lynch happy.

EBWOP

And masons should attack scum too. And I'll attack. Yeah. Attaaaack.

Why wouldn't they? More chat re- lurkers. Lawrence votes me as does Adel.

Overall nothing inherently scummy stands out but for now.

unvote, vote Ryan

seems to be trying to hard to fit in.

[theopor_COD]

No problems Bird, just found it curious, delightful all the same.

[theopor_COD]

Adel mine is a real vote, I have no intention of moving it yet.

[theopor_COD]

Adel for some reason I cannot view the pic in 93, any reason why or anyway I can view it? Cheers.

[theopor_COD]

Aha it's due to restrictions on my work computer with regards certain sites - they're damn fussy about that (surprised I can access mafiascum in all honesty), I'll have to view it at home, thanks again.

[theopor_COD]

Ok. Ryan i'm still wary of, but that last post worries me a lot more.

vote Papaya

There's plenty to comment on and when does the intelligent stage begin for you? If you can't think of anything to comment on what do you briefly think of everyone's input, content wise, aggression etc?

[theopor_COD]

I'm all for flushing out lurkers but scum are just as likely to play aggressively and contribute high post counts. Content is the thing.

Ripley from what I can see has delievered decent content, Papaya hasn't yet.

[theopor_COD]

I'm pretty sure I know who he'll go after (which might be able to show us some other things about people) but I'll wait for his post to see if I'm right.

Ryan any further thoughts on Papaya?

[theopor_COD]

unvote

. Thanks Tornado, good analysis.

vote Aimee

. Next on the list.


This lynch (a papaya) is bad bad bad bad. Let the poor kid defend himself. Just sayin'. More coming.

Firstly I've missed some pages so

unvote

- until I've re-read.

Secondly Aimee's already stated she'll be away so I don't like that vote one bit, especially when below you add the wagon on Papaya is bad as he cannot defend himself.

fos Lowell

More later.

[theopor_COD]

I'm pretty sure I know who he'll go after (which might be able to show us some other things about people) but I'll wait for his post to see if I'm right.

Ryan any further thoughts on Papaya?

I take it Papaya didn't attack the person you expected him to?

All this fluff about lurkers is getting to me slightly - to sum up I think it gives the scum an easy way to blend in as townies, plus I'm not keen on this post from Ryan.

I guess I figured with the frequency of my posts that would show I'm 100% on board with catching scum and figured I was posting enough thoughts to show that.

Just posting a lot does not mean your 100% on board catching scum. It seems to me your trying hard to blend in.

Still not convinced on Papaya, Tornado good post, previous page although I'm sad you left me out of your analysis. The fact I can't see Adel's diagrams is still irking me aswell.

I'm torn between Ryan and Papaya to be honest, what's everyones thoughts on Ryan?

[theopor_COD]

The fact I can't see Adel's diagrams is still irking me aswell.

Is there a hosting service that isn't banned from you work? photobucket or imgplace.com or free-webhosts.com

As far as ryan goes, I have him in the same tier of suspician as you, bird, and lawrencelot. More scummy than Lowell, but less than the rest. Is your case against ryan that he fits in too well, and follows the herd? Would that apply to Bird111 as well?

Nope they all have restrictions . . . I'll have to wait until next week to view them, when I finally have a day off.

I wouldn't say Ryan fits in well, it appears to me as if he's trying hard to fit in, essentially what scum would like to do. I maybe totally wrong as I have little knowledge of his playstyle. Yeh I can see a similar argument against Bird he's not brought up any individual attacks - followed the Papaya wagon and lurker discussion so he's by no means cleared, what with him away for the next 5/6 days we won't get much out of him either.

[theopor_COD]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... E_5jun.png
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... II5jun.png

these should work for you theopor_COD

Superb stuff

[theopor_COD]

theopor_COD: Please inform me on what I've done to get on your scumdar?

Everyone starts on my scumdar, no-one is innocent. Get defensive much? I haven't even got my vote on you.

I never said that just posting was enough to show you are pro town

No but you pretty much imply it . . .

I figured with the frequency of my posts that would show

I'm 100% on board with catching scum

I'm a little surprised that one post out of me would put me on par with Papaya who has already shown by these posts that he’s anti town. .

I already stated I found you suspicious prior to the Papaya wagon, it's not just one post, go back some 7 or so pages to my original post. I feel your overtly trying to follow people not catch scum as such, following the lurker wagons etc.

Posting 3/4 lines whatever . . . scum trying to blend in as town will post as much as most people. See Tornado's post on page 8 - it doesn't mean him posting that amount that he's town nor that someone who posts one-liners is scum.

Adel I'll claim at 6 votes, if that's what you want.

Posting, um...nothing is happening right now?

Please explain how he's been “pro town?”

Where did I say Papaya was "pro-town" nice misreprensation there. I don't like the way's he's been playing not once have I stated he's been pro-town. However I'd prefer my vote on you than him at present.

vote Ryan

[theopor_COD]

The timing of the claim is idiotic at best, however for now I see no reason not to believe it. If he's lying then the real masons will out him . . . I see no need for them to come forward and clear him if he's telling the truth.

If he's a townie claiming mason then that is quite possibly the stupidiest move in history - If he's scum claiming mason then that is quite possibly as stupid. Let's move on.

I'm more than happy with my vote on Ryan with the latest development.

[theopor_COD]

I'd also agree with Adel. I'd like Papaya to vent his suspicions and start attacking people he thinks are scum - if he's a mason then he's got a much smaller range of targets, so lets have some thoughts Papaya pls.

[theopor_COD]

Well if Papaya's a mason then he's not done a very good job of hiding

[theopor_COD]

FoS theopor_COD

How on earth can you call the timing of a claim idiotic at best but still believe it? You point the finger at me for "following lurker wagons" on a non poster (please look back and tell me that Papaya was doing so much for the town) And why would you want the masons to speak on him anyway? The masons are suppose to stay silent and not let the scum know who they are. Or am I misrepresenting you again? Looking awfully scummy right now my friend

The claim is idiotic - Papaya had 4 votes - 6 to lynch. If he's outed himself its idiotic. For now however I believe it, why is that so difficult for you to comprehend? Idiotic and believeable does work my friend.

I've not pointed the finger at you for following lurker wagons alone . . . I've made other points, I think your scummy for appearing eager to blend in mainly. I've not once called Papaya "pro-town" as you imply from his earlier behaviour, I made this point in my previous post against you, it still holds. Point out where exactly I said Papaya was pro-town pls.

As for the masons speaking out on Papaya - well I guess it's up to them. I don't want the masons to speak out if Papaya is telling the truth - which I think he is. I do however like the way you've turned your argument into a bout of OMGUS really against me. I'm scummy why exactly? Because I suspect you?

[theopor_COD]

Your a smartass plain and simple theopor_COD.You can't seem to have a discussion in a "game" without turning it into your supreme intelligence against others.

Man what are you 12? I have no beef with you personally, I just think your most likely to be mafia, this argument has nothing to do with being smart, plus I don't actually think compared to some people about that I'm that intelligent, I don't have a degree etc.

Papaya has admitted to lurking and you find NO problem with it, lurking is anti town, period. He hasn't posted any content BUT when he gets close to getting lynched and claims mason you immediately have no problem with it. You are not playing with the town in mind right now instead it's turning into this big "let me show you how smart I am and how you do not understand my intelligent posts" You want to talk about blending in? How about "quick to defend somebody" you have no idea if he's telling the truth or not and nor do I, but my claim that he still could be scummy doesn't seem to hold any water with you.

Quotes please Ryan where do I say specifically I have "NO" problem with lurkers. I'm not keen on everyone going headstrong towards lynching lurkers no, but pre-claim I found Papaya scummy. Until otherwise I'll believe his claim yep. I'm not trying to smart but your sure are acting like a bit of a crybaby with all this crap about me being intelligent and the like, because someone thinks you may be a mafia man. Chill out yeh.

[theopor_COD]

I'd agree not posting isn't helpful but it's not the only way to skin a fish. As I've said before this so called lurker hunt has given scum good a base to join an attack at townies etc. Scum are aware that lurking isn't a good strategy - therefore I'd be surprised if all three are lurking.

Arguments are all part of the game . . . as I say I have no problem with you on a personal level, just currently your top of my scum suspect pile.

[theopor_COD]

theopor_COD: now that you've pressured ryan into dropping a couple of scumtells, where do you want to go from here? .

Early suspicions are just that - early suspicions, if you don't attack someone for little things you don't learn anything. My main basis for the Ryan suspicion was I thought he was following people slightly and seemed eager to blend in - nothing major by any great shakes, but worthwhile casting a small jab at. The fact that you point out that Ryan is part of the posse chasing lurkers out - just gives the scum an opportunity to join this hunt, do you Adel or Ryan think scum are just as likely to attack lurkers? You know scum love to pick on a lurker they know is town. Let's just say Ryan's reaction to the little argument was interesting it does at least give the lurkers and the like something else to comment on along with the Papaya claim. I will say in his defence he didn't go into his shell and dissapear.

Ryan I apologise if you felt I was taking the piss as such, I didn't intend to. So sorry if you felt I was.

As regards the claim, I don't really know the best way to test it.

[theopor_COD]

Adel and ryan are almost definitive scum, and I would like everyone to analyze their play individually and as a pair.

Hmm . . . ABR what do you make of the argument between me and Ryan, then Adel's subsequent input into it.

Furthermore, I was thinking if Papaya was telling the truth you would be one of the obvious partners. Scum are likely aware that Papaya's telling the truth, i.e he's either a mason or a completely idiotic townie to them. Re-reading you it does make sense and it wouldn't take a particularly clever scum to realise that you were a likely partner.

[theopor_COD]

Albert - do call me theo, kthx.

I'll re-read Adel, kinda still waiting for more people to check in and comment.

[theopor_COD]

Question for everyone:

if A Papaya and Albert are lying about being masons, is it in the best interest of the town for a real mason to step forward? Why or why not?

Thing is if Papaya was scum, why on earth would Albert then claim mason aswell, it makes absolutely no sense for Albert to claim mason if he and Papaya are both scum. I don't think I'd believe a counter-claim to be honest.

[theopor_COD]

I'm with Albert here. It doesn't take a genius out to realise if Papaya was mason then who would be likely to be his partners - the scum would be able to work it out I'm sure.

[theopor_COD]

theopor_COD: No it wouldn't make sense for two scum to claim they were masons BUT does it make sense for the 2nd mason to come out and claim and put TWO mason's in the limelight? Why is it so improbable to you that somebody could be lying?

If Papaya is

scum

, which for the record I don't think he is. Why on earth would Albert come out and back up his claim, if Albert was scum with Papaya, he would surely just stay quiet.

As far as Albert's claim, if Papaya isn't scum they are likely to realise he's a mason and hence can go back and look through the thread and ping the most likely mason partners. Fact is they aren't hard to point out, I could probably guess at the third mason this minute, I won't though. The masons have played poorly, showing their hand so soon - but as I say the scum wouldn't need to be Einstein to figure them out.

[theopor_COD]

I haven't analysed Adel yet. I'm not as convinced of him as scum, therefore I don't have a case as such on her and would prefer Ryan to face the noose today.

Ryan - quite simply my main case against him pre page 10 argument, was that he was following Adel and Lowell's lurker hunt. This lurker hunt has given scum an opportunity to fit into a pro-town way of thinking, an easy argument to attack people against, hence Ripley's stance against it which is similar to mine, gave me a good vibe. I'm not against flushing out lurkers but as I said it's not the only way to skin a fish and these three more than anyone were pretty much using it as a basis to attack anyone.

The other small case I had against Ryan was that I found he was appearing overly eager to fit in the quote I pointed out where he said, him posting was showing that he was 100% in favour of catching scum etc.

Altogether nothing too serious pre Papaya claim, so I attack him on page 10, everyone can read that argument and make up their own minds. I will say I felt Adel didn't really convince me either way on who's side she took. Since then the fact he seems to be attacking you and Papaya seems even odder - as I point out why on earth would you if Papaya wasn't a mason, imply your also a mason. I've read your posts in relation to Papaya's wagon and they make sense.

[theopor_COD]

Ok if we're assuming Papaya and Albert are town, which I am, then after a re-read I could probably advocate a lynch of Adel, Lowell or Ryan. Ripley I like, the other mason I think I know, the other players are inactive - the continued lurker garbage from Adel just strikes me as looking for another target to lynch. I'll post my thoughts on Adel's posts when I've finished it, currently about a third of the way through.

[theopor_COD]

Adel out of curiousity - how much of MrBuddyLee's scum hunting ideals do you think you've followed so far? Let me remind you of an earlier post . . .

Adel: Being a new player (as you stated above) What is your strategy in this game for finding sucm?

Post analysis. This thread in the forums gaves me some ideas http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5301

MrBuddyLee wrote:
1) Inconsisency of suspicion
2) Phrases that sound like lying
3) Overedited posts indicating overcautiousness
4) Defensiveness
5) Lack of curiosity

I like his list.

I'll also look at patterns in lurking/inactivity, and for arguments that depend upon a logical fallacy or are unexplained. And people who don't forward original insights but just follow the arguments of others.

I'm still ploughing through your posts in between work and meetings, so I will comment at some stage.

[theopor_COD]

Okay, another question . . . assuming Papaya and Albert are telling the truth (which as I've stated I think they are) who do you think are the likely 3 scum now? Obviously you can continue on with the argument against Papaya and Albert as an answer but until we see a counterclaim, it's pretty given to me they are telling the truth.

[theopor_COD]

Okay let's have a look at Adel



1. random votes Lowell

2. Some fluff at Lawrence, for not sticking a random vote on Albert.

3. Responds to Lawrence

4. Has obviously been reading the previous game. Asks for advice.

5. Has been doing research answers Ryan's question. re-catching scum. Adel gives her main thoughts as to catching scum uses a list MrBuddyLee posted somewhere. Also states the lurker issue and that of people not following up original insights.

6. More fluff on lurking, possibly looking to start an attack at those voting Bird.

7. Post with regard lurking, why it should be frowned upon. I agree it isn't helpful but isn't the only way to catch scum. I've stated throughout the thread lurker hunting gives scum an argument to attack people with.

Same reason scum do. To avoid drawing attention and, potentially, votes. Pressuring lurkers will be the key, more than in other games. That's what makes this setup different.


Lurking is an anti-town action. The more information each individual player provides the more information each pro-town player has to evaluate and base a vote upon. I consider content free posts just as bad if not worse than not posting at all. If only masons and mafia lurk than the mafia will be able to identify each mason for NKs, and we saw what that leads to in the other game, so it doesn't benefit our town for masons to lurk. Hopefully an active scum player will drop enough scum tells for us to decide that he is scum and vote for him, but that probably means we have to chase the scum out of lurk first. So long as we have several lurkers, the scum can hid among them. This is my understanding of the rationale behind the "lynch the lurkers" tactic, which seems like a good idea to me.

Lowell: from your post I take it you agree with me- am I correct in this assumption? I think it will take a group of active players cooperating to pressure the lurkers, and that may mean following "lynch the lurkers" to succeed. I am not sure how far we can safely take it though.

Anyone else care to comment?

8. More attack of the lurker theme.

right now the clearest anti-town action is lurking. It is bad for the town and is bad for the quality of the game, and increases our odds of a mis-lynch. Get out of the lurk!

9. Votes me for supposed lurking.

I'll place a second vote to se where this goes, and I do agree with Lawrencelot's caution.
unvote: Lowell for posting more than average, and putting some actual content into his posts
vote: theopor_COD until he follows Lowell's lead.

Seperately I'll never follow someone's lead. Lurking isn't the be all and all, lynching a lurker is usually a bad move, we can replace em.

10. Unvotes after I post. Votes Papaya another lurker. Makes a reason for the wishy-washy voting, uses it as a net to catch supposed lurkers out, which happens with Papaya. Plus there wasn't any real attack at me, more of a vibe that I'll vote a lurker and if he/she doesn't respond I'll attack harder. i.e their an easier target.

unvote: theopor_COD that is what i would call a content-filled post. One lurker flushed. Next up: let's flush A Papaya. I'll place the second vote again.
vote:A Papaya for not posting. I'll move it once some real content is shown under your by-line.

BTW: I am totally going to qualify for that Wishy-Washy tell. I'm expecting to move my vote two or three more times over the next few pages, so long as there is a lurker left to be flushed or until I am totally convinced that someone is scum. More information is better for town, and I can't think of a better way to flush lurkers than being Wishy-Washy like this.

11. Continued pressure on Papaya, note at this time Papaya's lack of content alarms me aswell.

12. Papaya appears posts no content. Vote stays. One lurker captured into the net.

My vote stays where it is. What a shame, this was supposed to be the game where I voted around a lot.

13.

Asks

Papaya, Aimee, Tornado and

Me to unvote random votes

. I respond mine isn't a random vote, hence a tick in the defends Ryan box.

14. Then asks Albert to remove his random vote, all this seems to be pushing votes in the direction of Papaya. Albert responds his vote isnt random.

15. Response to mine and Alberts posts.

16. Diagram.

17. Throws an FOS at another quiet player Sir Tornado.

18. Ripley has made a disagreement to the lurker hunt, Adel calls him out on it, notice that yet none of MrBuddyLee's 5 ideals have been used as a way to catch scum, just the ongoing lurker crap. Disagrees with Ripley re: Lowell so a tick in the defends Lowell box, not much scum catching going on so far, just the mindless hunt to out a lurker.

19. More lurking stuff.

20. Attacks Ripley, who's openly criticised the lurker hunt. I agree that the lurker hunt gives cover to scum, more I'm reading more I'm disliking. Attacks three more lurkers - Aimee, Sir T and Papaya.

Ripley hasn't posted since Monday, only has 5 posts, her last post was critical of hunting lurkers. Her case was that hunting lurkers gives cover to scum, and calls Lowell scummy for doing it. At least that counts as content.

Aimee is on vacation through Sunday, but while she was here her posts were utterly devoid of content.

So far we already have Sir Tornado (was on vacation, but still needs to post) and A Papaya (posts but doesn't say anything).

21. Doesn't buy the Anti-Lowell, points out all of his actions have been pro-town. Annoyed that Ripley wants to derail the lurker hunt

I don't buy the anti-Lowell argument for a second. Everyone of his actions has been pro-town, and you have a minor difference of opinion on how he bases his vote. The reasons behind his vote was explained, makes sense from a pro-town perspective, and is the sole evidence you have against him. And you base your vote against him on that?!?. Fos: Ripley for trying to derail the lurker hunting, again. Extra heavy FoS on Albert for following along so easily.

Take your time in responding. I am much more eager to hear from A Papaya.

22. Nothing relevant.

23. Continues with the lurker hunt, comments not following Lowell

The trend I'm sick of is seeing on Day 1 is active players only scum hunt among other active players, with the result being the mislynch of a townie on a wagon started by a townie and the hammer being dropped by a townie.

I'm not following Lowell, I was just happy to see another player on the same page as me. I'd rather we coordinated a little better, if anything. The player who thinks like me and acts like me is likely to be playing the same alignment as me, therefore I will think Lowell is likely town until some real evidence comes to light.

The point in hunting lurkers is to get everyone up to a decent level of content, so that I (as an active player) will have a decent pool of information to shift through for scum. I do think the best approach for masons is to follow the best approach for regular townies: Post content and hunt for scum. The post at #38 gave me pause, but doesn't prove what you think it does. I think it amounts to a "lynch the lurker-lyncher" meta, which I do not like, but I would rather debate that later. Can we just hold the Lowell wagon until the lurkers have flushed?

If A Papaya is scum, and all he has to do to avoid the current wagon is to do nothing, we are totally rewarding lurking. How would that be good for town?

I think Albert B. Rampage needs to reread the last line of mine he quoted. What was I trying to say with that? Does it support your conclusion? Isn't reading comprehension a prerequisite for good play?

24. Comments that those making noise are possibly four-pro town players. Wants others to speak, decent.

25. Continued defence of Lowell. Attacks those who derail the lurker party, Ripley and Albert. Some issue regarding another game where a lurker lynch was town.

26. Not relevant. What I will say is if Albert's scum Adel ain't.

27. More banter with Albert

28. NRC

29. I point out content is more important than not posting. Adel responds that Ripley has posted content, Papaya hasn't - again I agree here.

30. More lurker stuff.

31. Posts that Papaya has reached -2, although isn't concerned.

32. Joke re - Alberts "being anti-town doesn't = scum"

33. Defence of Lowell. If Ryan and Adel are scum then Lowell aint looking too cracking.

34. Quotes Alberts attacking the lurkers.

35. Some more tit for tat between em

36. Hmm . . if Papaya is mason, then this quote alone would probably convince the mafia Albert was too

So, who is the third member of your scum group with A Papaya?

37. More lurker stuff. The whole subject of these posts.

38. More stuff re - Albert/Papaya - hence if Papaya's telling the truth, it's pretty obvious post-claim Albert was partner. Which is why the recent posts re - Albert's claim are pointless, scum would have noticed his defence of Papaya.

Now I am convinced that you are a scum buddy with A Papaya, trying in vain to provide cover so that he can lurk his way out of this mess. And I thought you were town before.

39. More argument with Albert.


40. I think it's more than likely Adel is mafia at this juncture, Albert is now claimed mason.

Nice try, scum.

I'm done with this. It isn't doing the town any good to continue. Our cases are out there for the other players to read and judge. Going on with this conversation this long makes both of us look petty, and I'm moving on. I feel like I've exposed you, so it has been worth it.

41. Mason link - emerges Adel attacks em. At the time fine but know assuming the masons are not lieing, they look obvious.

And A Papaya emerges to join Albert in attacking me. How predictable. Did I call for your lynch A Papaya? No, I called for you to post some content. A call I began many pages ago, and several other players joined me in calling for it. So please, post away.

42. Papaya calls Adel scum. Adel says that she will look like scum, if Papaya is town . . .

If you are town, and you get lynched, I will look like scum. You are right about that. The question is, will six (or 5 or 4 or 3 or 2) townies decide that you seem enough like scum to lynch? Your posts are what are going to decide that.

43. NRC

44. Calls out Papaya on his joke claim at 6 votes, Papaya seems to not want to claim to me from this, hence indicating probably masonry.

45. Dirt thrown at Bird. Who has been useless so fair enough.

46. Diagram stuff.

47. Doesn't respond at Tornado's post. Still okay with Papaya at -1.

I think I can go to sleep feeling ok about A Papaya being at -1. The case seems pretty good, and I'll be the person most likely to be blamed if he turns out to be town, which I doubt. If he hadn't posted those awefull posts today I would probably be unvoting right now.

This alone is probably the scummiest post, if Papaya talks the truth and as I've said until a counter-claim I think he does. Even with a counter-claim I'd probably believe Papaya and Albert - it would be non-sensical for two scum to claim two masons.

48. Attacks several ppl. Lowell, Aimee and Bird for dissapearing. Third one re- Albert again links to the possible mason pair.

I don't like a vote on a vacationing player. It is like not voting, but with a name.
I don't like a player vacationing at the very beginning of a game, esp this game.
I don't like how Ripley and Albert have not really considered A Papaya as scum in thread, but have not defended him either.
I don't like how Lawrencelot is using me for cover to aviod responsibility in his voting decision.

I really don't like that A Papaya is doing nothing for his defense.

I do like that the hammer didn't fall just yet. It looks like Lowell or Lawrencelot are the only two who are possibly willing to cast the #6: take all the time you need guys.

I like that I stand a really good chance of being the NK. I will take that as a compliment for being good at my job. If I die tonight: I think A Papaya's scum buddies are Ripley and Albert, possibly Aimee.... of course one of his mated could be bussing him... but those players are where I would first look for the next scum.

49. More discussion re- the Papaya wagon.

50. Ryan is in the third tier of suspicion with me, Bird and Lawrence. Scummier than Lowell not than the rest. Asks me to look at Bird, possibly wants me to avert my attention from Ryan.

51. Links the Diagrams.

52. I reply re- Bird, Adel adds that Bird leaving his vote on Papaya was odd.

53. Papaya has claimed. Adel unvotes.

54. Wants Papaya to contribute and place a vote, as yet this still hasn't happened and I'd rather Papaya came forward with some attack.

55. Claims the real masons won't out him if he's lying.

56. Me and Ryan have a little argument, I basically suspect Ryan, Adel's take on it, seems neutral. Doesn't see anything alarming with Ryan but does attack him for being defensive, the overall vibe from this post gives me one of defending Ryan. If Ryan's scum then I can see Adel as a partner.

That was just a little OMGUS'y ryan, you are being defensive.

theopor_COD: now that you've pressured ryan into dropping a couple of scumtells, where do you want to go from here? Looking through his post history, I don't see anything really alarming.

I like that ryan is part of the posse chasing lurkers out of the shadows. I see a couple poorly chosen words, and a defensive tone when attacked, but no real red flags. I would like to see him post more insightful words, but I don't see any of his actions as being anti-town so far.

57. NRC

58. I ask Adel with regard the lurker hunt, responds that scum are more likely to be lurkers and also that if scum were among the lurker hunt they'd be more likely to act like me or Bird than Ryan.

It is very possible that a scum or two will join in in chasing lurkers, but I believe that there is a greater chance of a lurker being scum than a chaser being scum. I would think that a scum among the chasers would act more like you or Bird11 than ryan though.

59. Diverts the discussion back to everyone else. Looking for another target to me ... suggests we ignore Papaya and brainstorm on everyone else.

60. Will go back to voting a claimed mason

I also want to take a look at other players, but if nothing convincing and serious comes up my vote goes back to A Papaya. I'm mostly convinced that he is scum; if he is town or mason he isn't much good to us as town or mason.

61. Albert claims mason and that Papaya is telling the truth. As I say go back and read the interactions, if scum believe Papaya to be telling the truth, they would automatically I think have Albert as a partner without Albert's claim. This quote I don't get . . . more defence of Ryan aswell, not really one attack of Ryan.

I hope that one or both of you are lying, but aren't scum. I am interested in hearing your case against ryan though.

62. Moans about the lurking again

63. Adel is not a mason, hence another reason why I believe the Papaya/Albert claims. More defence of Lowell and Ryan but does attempt a little distancing but re-iterates the flushing lurkers is the best tactic to catch scum.

I am not a mason with Lowell or Ryan, so I can not vouch for their alignment.

Yes, I did defend Lowell and ryan. For their actions. Pressuring lurkers into posting is good for the town. Now we have three players on vacation. I still expect scum to be laying low and laughing at the silly townies exposing the masons and lynching other townies.

That said, I won't bet my life on both Lowell and ryan being innocent. I've been more focused on flushing lurkers, and then poking holes in Albert's "don't hunt lurkers" argument then suspecting the people helping me get more content out into the open.

64. Wants to divert attention away and back to lurkers like Aimee, Bird etc back to the earlier brainstorm plan, notice Ryan agrees with this plan


65. Calls out Albert for being a little snot, for getting others pissed at him, as town I have no problems with it, i have nothing to hide, hence why Ryan's reaction to our little argument on Page 10, seemed pretty off. Sympathises with Ryan, agrees Alberts post regarding Papaya make sense. Goes through Ryan's posts again - note nothing after Papaya's claim - including the Theo/Ryan argument, just brushes it off as dealing with fallout of a beloved thoery. Calls out Lowell for the lurker hunt more than anyone. Broadside at Aimee and Bird - and says at least one scum is hiding in the shadows.

After A Papaya's claim, I was dealing with the fallout of losing a beloved theory, and I suspect that ryan was as well, in addition to the hostility that Albert draws out so well.

I sill hold my opinion of lurking and lurkers to be true. If one of the three of me ryan and Lowell are going to be scum, my money is on Lowell. He was smart enough to keep a low profile while ryan and I charged on like bulls in a china shop. Maybe he was smarter and realized that the evidence clearing Albert and A Papaya was overwhelming befoer ryan or I did, or...

I also don't like how we have 0 content from Aimee, and pretty much the only significant thing bird111 did was vote for A Papaya.
I still think that at least one scum is hiding in the shadows, or is on vacation. Getting positions and alliances is essential information for later play.

66. Pulls up a scummy Ryan post

67. Back to argument with Albert

68. And more.

69. Why this? Why are you looking to clear anyone as town!!!!

I am actively looking for ways to clear ryan.

70. More stuff re- Albert

71. Back to the reasons for the lurker hunt. Wants to return to it.

Chasing players out of lurking is not a "detrimental plan for the town".

Unless A Papaya is a mason. Then it is. Sorry about that. Otherwise, it is perfectly good plan, and one I would like to go back to. Once our three vacationers get back, I really want to pressure them to catch up on content (even Lowell!).

I've not included the latest ones as I hadn't copied them into notepad, I'll comment shortly - to sum up. Post 69 above is the clincher.

A Papaya and Albert - masons.
Adel and Ryan - scum.

I will be voting one or the other, goodnight vienna.

[theopor_COD]

I agree with Thopters Analysis.

"Thopter" who's he?

However being as there seems to be a keenness to lynch Adel, I'm happy to switch to -

unvote, vote Adel

. Ryan can stew for another day.

That one quote "I'm actively looking to clear Ryan" is probably worthy of being stuffed into the gullotine head first.

[theopor_COD]

This latest page bewilders me somewhat . . . until any kind of counter-claim comes forward from a supposed other mason group then I believe Albert and A Papaya to be town. I've said they've played poorly but that doesn't mean their scum . . Lawrencelot's posting 308 if he's town is quite possibly the worst post I've ever seen in my four months at scum. Adel has claimed she isn't a mason for christ sakes, we have no counter-claim! Unbelievable really.

[theopor_COD]

Same goes for Ripley and Theo, I don't understand how you guys can believe ABR so easily. To me, he is scummier than scummy.

He may well be scummier than scum, but he and Papaya have both claimed mason, without a counter-claim I believe them. End of story. I didn't actually have you pencilled in as scum, but your logic the last page astounds me . . .

[theopor_COD]

Well it looks like my only hope would be a counterclaim by the real masons... but I think I am being lynched by the real masons.

"I'm actively looking to clear Ryan"

was supposed to me being open and honest about my bias and motivations. I thought playing as town meant I didn't have to hide that stuff.

As town your aim is to flush out the three scum, actively looking to clear someone doesn't compute.

Vote stays.

Sir Tornado why are you ignoring the current situation and voting Aimee?

[theopor_COD]

Adel - what do you make of Lawrencelot's take on things in 308 and Sir Tornado's eagerness to go back to lurkers? Why at the start of the game would you not want to think of an opposing player as scum? As a townie you have no idea who's scum, who's not, why would you be a fool for not thinking Ryan may be scum? He may not be . . . but surely you should realise he may be and therefore not actively be looking to clear him.

As regards a counter-claim if there was going to be one I think it would have happened by now. Albert and Papaya are stupid yes and have revealed themselves much earlier than I'd like, but I believe them as it stands.

I'm eagerly awaiting some input from Bird and Aimee, a fresh face to scan over everything, shall we say.

[theopor_COD]

If the voting goes as per the current trend, we will have our lynch before we hear from everyone and I don't want that to happen. I will be happy to vote for Adel, Ryan or Lowell before this day is over.

Okay fair enough, although I don't see why your voting Aimee when she hasn't posted for yonks. As I state above hearing from Bird and Aimee is something that I'm looking forward to, both have been detached since the claim and there input would be appreciated.

[theopor_COD]

I'm not sure really, I don't like the way he held the town to ransom, but being as I believe the claim what more is there to say.

[theopor_COD]

Ryan what do you make of Adel and the fact he "was actively looking to clear you"?

[theopor_COD]

Adel to finish the issue regards you defending Ryan. As town I don't defend no-one but myself . . . obviously if I feel someone is using a bad argument to attack someone then I'll defend said person, I won't however be actively looking to clear them. The only people who really should be actively defending people and looking to clear others are the masons. As for the claims - until a counter-claim materialises I believe Papaya and Albert - I think if they were lieing scumbags and three other masons were out there, they'd probably read the thread and out them, or at least have done it by now.

[theopor_COD]

ryan was acting in the way a good team member should- applying pressure to generate posts for the good of the town

He was following the lurker hunt, nothing more. I've said before and I'll say it again, lurker hunting is fine but it's not the only way to catch scum. It's an easy argument for scum to attack people against.

If this game is so totally backwards that the scummiest players are the masons, and the

most pro-town players are scum

... I'll begin to doubt my capacity of being a good mafia player.

The masons are scummy, I've said that, I believe their claim however and I think they are town. I'm not so sure you've been the most pro-town however.

You still haven't explained why you said that you wouldn't believe a counter-claim earlier than reversed and used the absence of a counter claim as evidence in support of the claim by ABR and Papaya.

I pretty much believed the claim as soon as Papaya announced it, I said it was idiotic but believable and from memory Ryan attacked me for saying it. If Papaya/ABR were scum then I'd have expected the real masons to have claimed by now.

Why first off if Papaya was scum would he claim mason, why not town, it would make more sense for scum to claim. A post from someone said scum would only claim mason I need to find who wrote that.

Secondly why the hell would ABR then back up his claim, if Papaya was scum, then it would make more sense just to let Papaya rot . . . i.e give him up.

Do you disagree that if ABR and Papaya are scum then the best case scenario for town is a lynch of fake-mason without the claim or outing of a single real-mason?

I don't see the need for the other mason to claim. I don't want to lynch either of Papaya or ABR as I don't think they are scum. I want to lynch either you or Ryan, simple as . . .

[theopor_COD]

Adel out of interest, how are the diagrams looking?

[theopor_COD]

Adel out of interest, how are the diagrams looking?

Do you think they are useful? I've posted four now in different games, and no one seems to think they help. I wasn't planning on doing another. Should I?

I like them.

[theopor_COD]

Adel; I think you'll find I did answer, maybe not in so many words. I don't think it makes sense for Albert and Papaya to both claim masons if they're not masons. Therefore I think they're masons, hence I'll believe them ahead of a counter-claim, which still hasn't arrived, you were the most likely counter-claimant to me, you've claimed your not a mason. The absence of a claim just means its more likely Albert and Papaya are telling the truth.

The second question was also answered because I think ABR and Papaya are both town. I don't see them as scum hence why would be lynching a fake-mason? Who's a fake mason? You mean lynch either of Papaya or Albert right? As I say I'd rather lynch you.

[theopor_COD]

I've considered it. I just think it's very unlikely.

Papaya's claim alone yes - there'd be more of a case for thinking possibly scum. Scum I think would just as likely claim townie than mason. Albert's second claim is totally non-sensical if he isn't a mason. If Albert's scum he is seriously stupid, I know he rubs people up the wrong way but he's a competent player.

Go back and re-read around page 8 or so pre-Payapa claim, Albert acts like he knows Papaya's innocent, the scum ain't stupid they had probably figured if Papaya was a mason, then Albert was likely to be one aswell.

[theopor_COD]

Ryan - I'm happy to side with Albert here, I have you firmly pencilled in as scum.

[theopor_COD]

So for me the question will be, is another player revealed to be more scummy than Papaya. Which will take time. If we can't reach a consensus that either another player is more scummy than Papaya, or that no other player is more scummy than Papaya, then I would agree that the mass reveal is in the best interest of the town.

If seven players can

agree to lynch Papaya

, or can agree to lynch another player, I feel confident that that lynch will hang true.

We've found two already. You and Ryan.

I will be voting either of you, no-one else - Papaya isn't helpful but he's claimed a town mason, hence why would be lynching him?

[theopor_COD]

Due to my re-read, I think I did make a mistake on Papaya and have a couple of possibles for scum.

Do share these possibles?

Ripley - If we have another batch of masons claim then yeh it seems like a workable plan. Obviously its hypthetical. I'd state that anyone who isn't a mason or scum i.e a townie doesn't claim "just because they dislike Albert".

[theopor_COD]

Adel - for all Papaya's faults so far this game, without a counter-claim of any kind, he's telling the truth - as such I don't see what we will gain from lynching him.

[theopor_COD]

It's irrelevant I believe the claims. I believe Papaya and Albert to be town - if they're lieing scumbags which I would find very unlikely then the real masons should claim today and we follow Ripley's plan. All you seem to be proposing is a wagon/mislynch on a random player - I want you lynched or Ryan no-one else aslong as today lasts, save someone claiming scum that won't change.

[theopor_COD]

Plus there was that quote in regards to Ryan. "Actively looking to clear him".

[theopor_COD]

Plus there was that quote in regards to Ryan. "Actively looking to clear him".

Again, you are quoting me out of context.

I hate admitting that I'm wrong; I'm old; I am actively looking for ways to clear ryan. Those are facts. So is that there is a real chance that ryan is town, and other candidates we haven't looked at are scum.

Then when asked to clarify:

"I'm actively looking to clear Ryan" was supposed to me being open and honest about my bias and motivations. I thought playing as town meant I didn't have to hide that stuff. No, I am not going to vote ryan or Lowell or anyone else, because I do not see any compelling evidence. There isn't a deadline, and three players are on vacation.

and then when asked again

I didn't want to think of ryan as scum- that would make me a fool. I gave my best argument for why he isn't scum, and I was intellectually honest enough to state my intent so others would have a fair understanding of my selection bias. Should compute.

and finally

Depending on how this turns out, I may very well adopt you tactic of never defending another in this game. In RL I am all about building consensus to solve difficult problems with conflicting personality types, and that is the skill set I bring to the game. My instinct is to defend someone that I work well with, and to pay it forward whenever possible. That means taking risks with some people some of the time, but on average it really does average out in my and the team's favor. I am a leader and a team-builder. ryan was acting in the way a good team member should- applying pressure to generate posts for the good of the town. He earned the benefit of the doubt in my eyes though his pro-town actions, so I took a risk in defending him. I see nothing wrong in my actions. If this game is so totally backwards that the scummiest players are the masons, and the most pro-town players are scum... I'll begin to doubt my capacity of being a good mafia player.

Did you miss the above quotes? Why is it that out of my

five

pages of posts, this is the best that you have?

I've answered all the above before.

It's not the best I have, I examined all your posts back some 6 pages - the fact that your are actively looking to clear Ryan is bollocks, you shouldn't be . . . you should be actively hunting scum. All I've seen you do all game is propose the lurker hunt with Lowell - you voted me to get me to post, I did you went onto Papaya - yes his reaction was scummy, so you stuck hard and fast to him. Papaya's claimed mason and basically you don't believe it. You then find anyone who is against the lurker hunt, scummy - it's not the only way to catch scum, it gives them opportunity to blend in.

Your stubborn I'll give you that and if I go through your posts I'll pull up a whole load more of stuff to call you out on. Now your more or less pleading with us to lynch Papaya - you don't believe the claims what-not, you don't like Albert and would rather he'd be scum. Fact is I think the scum one here is you - even after the claims you went back to attempt the lurker hunt, you need to be lynched.

[theopor_COD]

A Papaya, ABR and theopor_COD are the scum. Good luck convincing the others to mislynch me today.

I do hope your scum buddies decide to bus you, otherwise it's game over.
Have you seen that counter-claim yet . . .

I must remember next time I play to actively go on a lurker hunt ignore all other scum tells, actively look to defend someone who looks scummy and want to lynch 2 masons who as yet have no counter-claim.

Seperately I do like playing with you Adel, your a decent player and put a great deal of effort into the game but sometimes being scum is tough, eh.

[theopor_COD]

I'm not a mason and I actually think the last few pages have been very productive not just noise.

[theopor_COD]

Lawrence until we have any kind of counter-claim I believe them to be town. That's it, nothing more. If there telling fibs the real masons should claim today and then we test both groups using Ripley's idea back in post 391. Until that happens I believe ABR and A Papaya to be town as such the people who are completely opposed to them or blind to the situation - yourself, Adel and Ryan are automatically the three I'm most concerned about.

[theopor_COD]

I can't believe Bird, Aimee and Lowell are all masons - if Albert and A Papaya are scum one of the other supposed masons must be about. Aimee said she'd be back today so I'm anticipating something substantial from her.

[theopor_COD]

Ryan what do you make of Lawrencelot's posting above in 459?

Plus I think one of Bird/Aimee may be a mason but there more likely to be the missing third one from Albert and Papaya's group then a seperate team. If Albert and Papaya are scum which I doubt very much then a real mason must have posted recently. Adel claims not to be a mason. So that leaves if Albert and Papaya are scum - Sir Tornado, Ripley - both unlikely given they believe them. Adel - claims not a mason. So we have 3 possible counter claim masons in Lawrence, Ryan, Lowell, Aimee or Bird - fact is I think its 99% likely Albert and Papaya are town.

[theopor_COD]

I ended up calling out a mason (alleged) and it's very possible that you ABR are going after a townie

You seem to doubt yourself?

[theopor_COD]

I ended up calling out a mason (alleged) and it's very possible that you ABR are going after a townie

You seem to doubt yourself?

The benefit of the doubt which was asked for by a few players, I'm being fair and doing so. Also do you and ABR still believe bird1111 to be scum? You both hopped on him right away at the

beginning of the game

Key word in that sentence isin italics.

I have no opinion on Bird. I need more from him but there are probably four people I'd rather see lynched.

[theopor_COD]

EBWOP - Four people ahead of Bird I'd rather see lynched. As for the beginning of the game them votes were random, surely you were aware of that?

[theopor_COD]

I think it is funny that theopor_COD would rather see 4 people go before bird1111 when we only have 3 mafia, interesting comment there.

Not really. There's four people I'd rather see lynched before Bird.

You
Adel
Lawrence
Lowell

What has Bird done that is remotely scummy compared to the likes of you, Adel and Lawrence who continually disbelief the claims. He's not here so all I can guage is that your looking to create a wagon of some kind on him.

[theopor_COD]

Ryan until Albert and A Papaya are proved to be lieing scumbags by the counter-claim which is supposed to appear from thin air. I believe them to be 99% town. For heavens sake if Papaya was scum with Albert - why on earth would Albert back him up, he'd just let him rot . . . I have like 8 people I'd rather lynch than Albert and A Papaya at present, if you want a list here goes -

scum - Ryan, Adel
possible scum - Lawrence, Lowell
unknown - Aimee, Bird
leaning to town - Sir T
more town - Ripley

I'm not going to be looking at lynching Albert, A Papaya without any kind of counter-claim, they are pretty much confirmed in my eyes.

[theopor_COD]

I thought it was sarcasm.

[theopor_COD]

Inevitable. Good game. Go townies.

[theopor_COD]

I'm pretty disappointed with the overall level of play here.

Agree totally.

Frankly I'm appalled by the town's performance on Day Two. It ranks pretty much as somewhere near the worst play I've seen.

The scum should have been dead and buried, how Adel lived to endgame and the win is beyond me. However congratulations to her, Tornado and Ryan as they cannot be blamed for the town's failings. I do however rank this as a poor defeat, the only bright note being my death on Night One.