Mini 455 - Mafia in Theoville - Game Over who won?
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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unvote: meme
hmmm, now I need a less than random reason. Ah, got it.
Vote:Guardian-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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It had more to do with other players dropping your name into a sentence containing the word "logic."Guardian wrote:Adel, is your reason for voting me that I use smiley faces? Is it my page one vote? Are you just following MeMe? Please do tell.
Logic=Scum. [/joke]
Seriously, I think I picked up on a scumtell, and I'm waiting for a repeat or three before I present it to everyone else.
Dogmom hasn't posted yet. Odd. She is usually good for a few hundred words a day. If I didn't have my vote tied up in something that may (slight but non-zero chance) prove significant, I would put a vote on her to encourage her to leave the lurk.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Dogmom: glad you made it.
There is this thread in the forums, started by Guardian of all people,
Revealing WHY you think someone is scum that changed my views on a couple of things. Now I don't believe in the immediate reveal, even though there is the risk of seeming scummy.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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To state my reasons would spoil it- it is too early. esp since you haven't done anything to convince me that I am wrong, and giving away the tell I'm looking at would result in you knowing to stop the action.Guardian wrote:Then you said that the chance of this actually happening was slight. Being actively suspicious is great, but you are not giving me or anyone else much to go on.
I think voting without providing a reason is OK, but not providing a reason when one is asked for makes the vote seem quite arbitrary, especially when you say that you had a good reason for the vote.
Why place a vote at all? To encourage postiness. Is this vote arbitrary? A little, just all all votes on page two are going to be a little arbitrary, there aren't that many facts at this point in the game.
I promise to reveal my reasons before post #100. Yes, that is an arbitrary number.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Nekka-Lucifer: Are you lurking or what?
Normally I would use red for votes and yellow for random votes, I really can't tell the difference in this game without a few judgment calls, and I wanted to keep the graphic as object as possible.
Anyone notice anything? Mostly I just see a bunch of noise.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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You convinced me with you first line. I was pretty torn on the tactic myself. I don't know how I missed NanookTheWolf's vote for you on the map. But it really bothers me that he is voting for you for no good given reason, and my non-explained vote gives him cover for it. He is doing exactly the same thing I did, but whenGuardian wrote:Adel, I reiterate that if there is something to show that I am scum, it must be true now, not something you can invent sometime before 100 posts. Your map is very intersting and all (though not up to date), but you saying I have some scum tell when I am not scum and not even letting me respond to it is... not very pro town in my opinionhedoes it it seems like a scummy b.s. move to me.
I'll explain at greater length later, if necessary. I was focusing on making a mountain out of a molehill, expecting scum to overstate a case for someone else in an attempt to start a bandwagon. You seemed to be the most guilty of it. Announcing my vote without explaining it was a tactic designed to encourage you to continue overstating a case, and hopefully get defensive about it.
I don't like the non-disclosure tactic. It drew too much attention to itself, and gave Guardian something do be justly irritated with.
unvote: Guardian
I was wrong, the way I went about my vote and explaining my reasons for not stating my reason to votewas bad for town. I apologize.
FoS: NanookTheWolffor doing the same scummy vote for Guardian in the same scummy manner that I did. I am a newbie, what is your excuse? Rusty?
Here is a question for everyone: If Nanook and Guardian were scum buddies and planned to start a scum fight, how would they go about doing it? If the result of their fight was a cop claim by one, then he openly clears his partner Day 2 , how impressive would that be? I looked over the opening post by our mod, and I don't see anything that allows or forbids mafia from PM'ing each other before the thread was unlocked. If they weren't allowed to PM each other I don't see how they could've set this up.
theopor_COD: were roles with PM rights allowed to PM each other before the game started?-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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It should've shown 3 votes for Guardian, I missed NanookTheWolf's vote. Sorry about that.YogurtBandit wrote:The most someone's ever been voted is 2 votes (-5 lynch). Looks like noise. If you throw in the votes after that, its still kind of noisy..-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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If you took offense to my "Rusty?" comment, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to insult you, it was just a rhetorical flourish.NanookTheWolf wrote:
What's with the attack there Adel? First off just let me state that I don't care if you're a newbie or not .. It's not an excuse for ever being scummy as you put it. My vote was more out of confusion then it was tactful, and why do claim being scummy?
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I made a mistake by exposing the cop, but honestly it's not something that I would do as scum, but instead keep to myself until the night hit. Maybe you should blame Guardian for outing himself, I just happened to catch on to it is all.
Seeing you do what I was doing made me realize how scummy it was. Realizing that I was engaging in an activity that was anti-town I posted mymea culpa.
I wasn't blaming you for outing Guardian, I was considering the possibility that you are scum with Guardian and outing him is part of a brilliant ploy to remove both of you from consideration as scum. If this is the case then he gets to role-claim without us wondering why he role-claimed, and after he investigates he gets to clear a scum partner.
You did nothing to address this accusation. Hey, it may only be a wild conjecture, but the way in which you used "If I were Mafia" as a counter-factual strikes me as being scummy.
Could someone more experienced analyse my hypothesis? I can't wrap my head around what the odds of if being true are.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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NanookTheWolf in post 78 wrote:I never used the exact words "If I were mafia" just so you know. The lines you refer to are more of a reiteration of what Guardian said, but coming from me.
So if you were scum you wouldn't out the cop, you would wait until night to wack him. That is the counter-factual I was referring to. It does meet the common definition of WIFOM.NanookTheWolf in post 71 wrote:I made a mistake by exposing the cop, but honestly it's not something that I would do as scum, but instead keep to myself until the night hit.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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I was a fool. Guardian may be a cop exposed by Nanook who might be playing badly. Streeflo and I gave Nanook a hard time. YagamiLight affects an impartial perspective.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Judging from the setup, we probably do no have a SK with us, right?
I think he meant that if Guardian (scum pretending to be cop) say he investigated Nanook (Guardian's scum buddy) Night 1 as is innocent, than if he dies (meaning either Nanook or Guardian, I can't tell) then we will know that both are scum & will win the game. . Instead of NK I think he meant "night choice"... I give up, I don't know what he meant.
Nekka-Lucifer: do you have a past restriction? Can you clarify your post, please? Are you a Serial Killer?-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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I didn't either. That is what started my paranoia.DogMom wrote:I really dunno what to make of it all. I didn't see any of the "Cop breadcrumbs" at all, to be honest.
I'd guess Meme likes her vote because you aren't adding anything to the conversation. Like, "Hello Pot, I'm Kettle: you're black!" Or maybe she is psychic and you are scum.YogurtBandit wrote:Why are you loving your vote?
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I am now of the opinion that it would be better to give Guardian the benefit of the doubt for now. My whole scum-buddy thought is pretty improbable.
I was thinking about talking about other possible roles in this thread, and came to the conclusion that talking about what roles that may or may not be present on Day1 would help scum more than town. For better or worse we now have an unverified cop, a relative consensus that there isn't an SK, and my hunch that there may be a Godfather. There better be a Doc and he better not fall victim to a recursive logic bomb and protect a random townie rather than our (possible!) cop! We don't want to give scum any more ideas or point out any further clues to assist them in their NK.
If anyone else spots some bread-crumbs, for pete's sake leave them alone!-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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I think her vote is based upon your actions not being very pro-town since you haven't added much.Ifthat is her reasoning (I am not a mind reader) I am calling her a hypocrite because she hasn't added much either. Hence the joke. The dry joke. The unfunny joke. Oh well.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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ChaosOmega has posted twice for a total for three words. "Vote Nekka-Lucifer" in post #19 and "Random" in post 21.
WTF!
Vote:ChaosOmegafor the obvious reason.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Is my post at #68 enough for you? In it I promised to explain more if asked to...Streeflo wrote:Anyway Adel, it's now post 104.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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He has a total of 19 game posts on mafiascum, and none since sat @7:30pm. So it is not as if he is posting in other games and just lurking in this one. Still, I'd like to see him catch up by posting, and leaving my vote where it is should help motivate that.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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It was a hasty pressure vote- I didn't check his activity until I saw the post from the Mod mentioning that he was going to check it. I thought it was a no-brainer and I knew that Erotomachia had just taken a vote off of him. I wasn't expecting our mod to be that assertive in sending a prod, and felt a pressure vote would be a good thing not knowing he probably hadn't been to the site since about his last post three days ago. When he comes back he will still have two votes on a at least one player (me!) trying to bully him into posting more. I stand by my vote.Streeflo wrote:Adel, you seem just a little overeager to vote ChaosOmega for that, but I'm assuming it was just a pressure vote?
Which is worth considering. There is a big contradiction between Nanook being clever enough to pick up on your claim, and the sloppy way he reacted to it. I was searching for a simple explanation for it, and came up with that. It didn't make since for him to out you if he was town, and it didn't make sense for him to out you if only he was mafia. It only made sense for him to "out" you as cop if you are both mafia. And it still does make sense to a degree, but I am not confident enough in my theory due to my inexperience (I've never seen a day 2, keep in mind) to buy it unless a couple experienced players start to agree with it.Guardian wrote:and a fistfull of FOSs: (roughly in order of worst to least bad)
Adel for the completely convoluted me + nanook scenario,
I thought that horse was dead. I find it interesting that you pick up on this while ignoring the four (or five?) or so other players that have done the same thing.AND for still not mentioning my supposed scum tell even when asked to repeatedly,
It should make Chaos Omege more likely to post if he is under pressure when he does get back to the site.AND for thinking voting someone who is not checking the site will make them post,
A hunch based upon the numbers of townies, and while I haven't read alot of games it seems to me that Godfather's are fairly common and totally screw up the utility of cop investigations, which was the context of my statementAND for saying she thinks that the mafia has a godfather this early for no reason
If I understood that comment I would reply to it. Please rephrase. BTW, I hope you had a good flight, and I will totally understand if you are lagged and need a couple of days to respond to all of this.AND for assuming that me as a scum cop would not provide a true innocent result.
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I respect Guardian's FoS, and I think it would be really great if the other players would try to respond to his points as fully as I have tried to.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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He said it was because he was confused- most of his other games started with a night move, and he assumed that this one did as well. Which doesn't disprove my unlikely Guardian+NtW scum pairing, since my theory depends upon them exchanging P.M.'s to set up the fake claim as if it were a Night 0. Our Mod simply stated that he didn't explicitly ban P.M's.Streeflo wrote:I still find it funny how he assumed the game started in Night, although in the rules clearly say Day Start.
Look at the time stamp on your Role P.M. and calculate the difference between when the mod sent it to you and when the first post was made. That would give the mafia about a day to come up with a clever plan. Would that be enough time? I suppose that Guardian with only about 3 months on this board probably isn't experienced enough to have that plan sitting on the shelf, but NtW registered at this forum in 2004, and has 2,400 game posts. Meme has just under 7000 game posts, & registered in 2002, just as a point of reference.
I think that the fakeclaim role would be the easier one to play, and playing the person clever enough to spot the breadcrumbs but clumsy enough to out the "cop" would be much harder. So I find it believable that an experienced player came up with this tactic sometime ago and just left it in his toolbox for the right time. This is a closed game with strict deadlines which increases the possibility of a mislynch, and full of newbies. Note that only Erotomachia, MeMe and NanookTheWolf are the only players in this game to register before March of this year. Meme would be a great nominator for a scummy for best roleclaim or best mafia player.
How many of you other newbies even knew what breadcrumbing was before this game? I didn't. If none of you did either (or none save one, since the other scum is probably a newbie) how is that Guardian did with his 166 game posts worth of experience?
I'm just saying that the more I look into this little theory of mine the more possible it seems.
To sum up my theory:
1. Nanook devised the plan some time ago, PM'd Guardian to explain what breadcrumbing was and that Nanook would out him.
2. Nanook choose this game because the deadlines, closed format, number of newbies, and Meme as a whitness comprise the perfect environment to try it out.
3. Everyone believing that Guardian is a cop would get him + 1 scum buddy through to the endgame easily once they drive the bandwagon that lynches the third member on day 1 or 2.
4. My theory explains why Nanook would out Guardian as cop. The other offered theory is that Nanook was that clumsy despite 2,400 game posts. Nanook as mafia without Guardian doesn't make much sense (without resorting to WIFOM) and no one seems to believe that.
So far the only person that has agreed with me registered on May 28 of this year, so while I feel a little better since at least one person doesn't think I'm bat-shit crazy just for mentioning the possibility, I would feel better to have more confirmation.
So lets take a poll: Is my theory that a Guardian+NanooktheWolf scum-pairing possible?
a) No! It is clearly impossible.
b) Barely, but it is so unlikely that it probably isn't worth considering
c) Yes, but I'm fairly sure that we'll come up with a better scum tell on someone else before deadline.
d) Yes, + I am so convinced that when deadline comes, these is a good chance my vote will be on Nanook.
If everyone could respond to my poll by just posting a single letter, I would really appreciate it. Even if I am crazy, I did put a lot of time into this.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Guardian, MeMe, Erotomachia, and ChaosOmega: are all of you sure that YB should be at -2 to lynch with 11 days left to deadline?-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Does anyone else have a vote for my Poll?
Guardian wrote:I didn't pick up on what you thought my scumtell was until Streeflo mentioned it! Where exactly did you tell us what it was?
If I don't get a couple more c or d votes I'll drop the entire thing. I thought it was a big stretch at the beginning, so I tried to disprove it by every means I could think of. Here is a funny fact: google "adel breadcrumb site:mafiascum.net" and it turns out that the word "breadcrumb" was used by pablito in a thread in the forums on the very same page I posted on, before the game started. So I should've known what breadcrumb meant. Also, Guardian posts on the next page of that same thread, so I have proof that he was active in a thread where "breadcrumb" was used. I think I am going to vote "b" on my poll now. I am still interested in what other players think of my idea though.Adel in post #68 wrote:I was focusing on making a mountain out of a molehill, expecting scum to overstate a case for someone else in an attempt to start a bandwagon. You seemed to be the most guilty of it. Announcing my vote without explaining it was a tactic designed to encourage you to continue overstating a case, and hopefully get defensive about it.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Maybe you can have two votes Here is another crazy idea I just thought of: In addition to or regular vote in the regular format we also postGuardian wrote:If I had two votes one would more than likely be on Adel, but YB still seems like a better candidate at present .VigKill: Player ZZZZZandun:Vigkill. Based on the games I've read, 50-75% of these games have a vig, but they usually don't do much good, killing townies or not killing at all.
I think this idea is a win-win. We get more information on voting and the relationships between players for later analysis even if there isn't a vig. If there is a vig, and if he follows the vote, it will be nearly as good as the town having two lynches a day or the mafia only being able to kill every other night. It will totally skew the odds in a pro-town direction.
The vigkill vote could come in a conditional form, like I vote for nanook, if nanook is proved town then I vigkill vote chaos omega, but if he is proved scum I vigkill vote guardian.
I think this idea is gets a warmer reception than my last big idea-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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WTF?Adel wrote:I think this idea is gets a warmer reception than my last big idea
EBWOP:
I think this idea will get a warmer reception than my last big idea-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Wow. You really are gunning for me, aren't you. No wonder townies so often lurk giving cover to the lurking scum: play as aggressive as your's suppresses participation. Less information = less basis for lynch votes = greater % of a mis-lynch. WTG.-
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I am an active and confident player, you aren't going to intimidate me. I was pointing out that your style could intimidate other players. And it might.Guardian wrote:It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...
I put a lot of effort into this thread, and the more work I put into it the more words you type painting me as scum for my efforts. As the target of my wild theory it made sense for you to be defensive, but when I make a post regard a scheme that I think would be pro-town and ask for comment, you dismiss it and add my attempt to your already OMGUSy list of my faults. Go ahead and mis-characterize me some more, but evaluate the vigkill scheme on its own merits and please drop the sarcasm so everyone else can have a clearer understanding of your argument.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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YB: did you really claim cop in that post? If not, I don't understand your logic.
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something I missed
I tried to explain why players who are town may choose to lurk- they don't do it because it is bad for town. I even tried to make it clear why it is bad for townie to lurk: it gives cover for lurkers. Making a mountain out of a mole hill + mis-characterizing a comment to warp it into a scum tell. Exactly the reasons why my initial, unexplained, vote was placed on you... as I explained in post #68. Now you are doing it some more.you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...unvote:Chaos Omega vote:Guardianfor continuing to overstate his case. This may be because of playstyle, but if it is then stop because it is bad for your arguments, increases our odds of a mis-lynch, and makes you look like scum. I am not saying that my earlier NtW+Guardian scum-pairing must be correct, NtW could easily be town while Guardian is scum. I do not know what I think of YB yet.. I need to do a PBPA.-
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First of all each player is an individual, and makes the own choices. As a group we can tell each power role what to do all we want, and they'll still make their own decision. And your logic for how the mafia would react to the group putting their minds together to assist the (possible) vig in making a good decision strikes me as a scummy response: using crap logic to dismiss a pro:town plan. The mafia, in trying to predict the actions of the autonomous individuals playing our power roles will always run into a recursive logic error (WIFOM) so they will never be able to confidently predict who a P.R. will target. Once again, though the logical fallacy of over-simplification, you are overstating your case. That you didn't mention the possibility of there being a mafia roleblocker, the biggest hole in my plan, suggests that:Guardian wrote:Your vigging plan has similar flaws. If we tell the vig who to vig, the mafia can respond appropriately. Maybe by defending the vig candidate if he is a mafia member, maybe because they were planning to kill the same person that the vig is going to kill, maybe by no killing to try and make us think there is no vig, or whatever. They can also try and influence the vig kill just like they would try to influence any vote. In my opinion, trying to definitively give a target for power roles is a bad idea and is scummy. Even though any potential vigilante is not at this point accountable for acting as we would decide him to, if we give him a target to vig kill, the mafia can try and influence our decision and they can take that information into the night.
If all your grandoise plan is trying to do is have people give a runner up candidate as to who they think is scummy, and have that information "officially" there... well I think people should always play that way, and that calling it a vig kill target is bad for the above reasons.
1. you are mafia and you know that there is a roleblocker
or
2. you are mafia and since there isn't a roleblocker you didn't think of the possibility.
You are wise enough in the ways of mafia to know of that possibility. I was actually worried that another player would point out that hole in my plan before you had a chance to respond. Either you are trying to obfuscate the information I put out because, as scum, you know that I am on to something, or you really need to check your style of play. Either way, you are making sloppy mistakes.
I am so happy with my vote now.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Think this through a little more.Guardian wrote:A mafia roleblocker would definitely hamper us directing the actions of the potential doc and cops, but how would a mafia roleblocker block a potential vig whose theoretical identity is unknown?-
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Adel in 152 wrote:Wow. You really are gunning for me, aren't you. No wonder townies so often lurk giving cover to the lurking scum: play as aggressive as your's suppresses participation. Less information = less basis for lynch votes = greater % of a mis-lynch. WTG.Guardian in #154 wrote: It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...
I am not gunning for you, specifically, I am gunning for all people I see as likely scum candidates, especially when they post more scummy things.Adel in post #160 wrote:something I missed
I tried to explain why players who are town may choose to lurk- they don't do it because it is bad for town. I even tried to make it clear why it is bad for townie to lurk: it gives cover for lurkers. Making a mountain out of a mole hill + mis-characterizing a comment to warp it into a scum tell. Exactly the reasons why my initial, unexplained, vote was placed on you... as I explained in post #68.you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...
Am I?Guardian in post #164 wrote:Also, the lurker thing was half a sentence of my post, and in this case I think you are the one over-exaggerating a minor point I made.-
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Oh, it is dirty to post something like that and then continue to state and restate a case against me.Guardian wrote:That being said, I have observed two obvious town players at each other's throats for no good reason in another game I am currently in, so I am going to take a step back and relook at the case against you, as the center of it are your two theories...
Take your step back or don't.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Guardian: I'll take a step back. I'll concentrate on who else may be scum, keeping my vote on you, but at this point I don't have any other good (hah!) guesses on who may be scum. I need to find other good scum possibilities.
Everyone knows how to sort posts by player name, right? That is where the numbers come from.
YogurtBandit:
0- random vote: Nekka-Lucifer
1- points out that a random vote isn't good content
2- typo correction
3- no real content (NRC)
4- NRC
5- questions chaos-omega's vote on Nekka-Lucifer
6- accepts Streeflo's "random vote = good content" comment as a joke
7- gently proposes that CO's random #2 vote on Nek-Luc was a bandwagon, votes ChaosOmega
8- disagrees with Erotomachia, defends placing a #2 vote on CO
9- quotes own post # 7 to defend self for placing #2 vote on CO
10- agrees w/ guardian that voting w/o stating why is a scumtell, states that bandwagon + scumtell = vote to defentd own vote on CO
11- quotes post from guardian where guardian says that YB agreeing with him for "no reason" is fishy. YB points out that he pats Guard on the back more in other games. States that there just noise in the graphic Adel posted
12- asks for summary after not posting for 12 hours. NRC
13- tries to decipher Nekka-Lucifer's meaning in previous past
14- NRC
15- asks why Meme loves her vote on YB
16- proposes that there could be any combination of more than 1 cop or 1 doctor
17- NRC
18- NRC
19- Asks why I placed vote on CO
20- slightly defends Nanook against Nanosauromo
21- States that Guardian is scum false-claiming cop. places vote on Guardian
22- asks me to respond to articulate attacking post by Guardian.
23- claims cop. says that he thinks there are 2 cops. quotes wiki which states that multiple cops with different sanities is common. Asks doc to protect one of the claimed cops.
24- responds to guardian's analysis of likely night actions. YB states he will not investigate Guardian, and if unless there is two doc's he is likely to be nk'd, because if there is only one doc and the doc protect YB, YB will be lynched tomarrow.
25- asks Erotomachia why he unvoted YB. Responds to Meme stating that he thinks the Guardian is acting like a cop, but doubts that Guardian really is a cop because of the likelihood of there only being one cop.
26- responds to Meme, that keeping vote on Guardian is for pressure, and that he has PM mod regarding sanity.
27- states that he doesn't know if he is sane and never will.
Summery:
Votes NL -> CO -> Guardian... defends self often, defends Nanook once. has only attacked CO and Guardian. Claims cop as role. Not wishy-washy.-
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ChaosOmega
0- votes Nekka-Lucifer
1- replies that his vote for NL was random
2- 24hrs later says that he is back (NRC)
3- places #4 vote on YB for not making useful posts, and that YB tries to look town by posting often. Doesn't buy Guardian-Nanook scum pair.
4- corrects me by pointing out that his vote makes YB -3 to lynch
Summery:
Votes NL -> YB... doesn't post much, just a couple posts every 48 hours.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Dog_Mom
0- Explains that she is a day late to the party because of RL. States that a vote w/o giving reasons = scumtell. Votes Adel for that reason.
1- 24hrs later tries to decipher Nk's post.
2- Unvotes me, Fos's Nanook and Guardian, but does not give reasons.
3- Doesn't see breadcrumbs, agrees w/ YB that opening mod post indicates 3 mafia.
4- Asks Nanook why he outed Guardian
5- Says shy can sorta see why Nanook outed Guardian, says she wouldn't have. Doesn't explicitly state why she thinks Nanook outed G. Un-Fos's both. Doesn't see either as scum, but thinks both are playing poorly for outing each other as town... does player evals: YB doesn't post content, Meme posts meta-content, YagamiLight could be scum since he is posting enough not to be seen as a lurker but posts w/o content. CO+Nanosauromo need to post more. Adel made a scumtell by not posting reason for vote. NL doesn't make sense. Streetflo- NRC, concludes that YL could be scum who is playing well.
6- Clarifies that in 5 she meant that she doesn't see a Nanook-Guardian scumpair. Either could be scum. Says that YB needs to explain actions.
Summery:
Votes Adel -> unvotes... attacks me once, attacks no one else, but voices gentle suspicion of YL, Guardian, and Nanook. Not much content, nothing original added to thread.-
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Erotomachia
0- Random votes CO
1- first player to ask me what my less than random reason for voting guardian is
2- simple question challenging YB's CO vote
3- second simple question challenging YB's Co vote.
4- States VB's CO vote is a little strange
5- States that both guardian and nanook can't both be scum, unvotes CO, votes YB. doesn't give reason in post for YB vote.
6- Votes "C" on my poll, and wasn't very familiar with breadcrumbing, will post more later.
7- 30 min later unvotes YB
8- points out that Dog_mom did not mention Erotomachia in player evals. points out that Adel and guardian could be two townies attacking each other while scum lay low.
9- Explains YB unvote as being to to real possibility of two cops w/ different sanities. Doesn't want to lynch a claimed cop.
Summery:
Votes CO -> YB -> unvote. questions directed at YB do not strike me as good questions. YB seems a little fishy since YBs answers were decent and nothing else changed. No insights or analysis offered despite decent number of posts.-
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Guardian
0- at least two smilies too many, agrees with YB in challenging Streetflo's change in vote, votes Streetflo
1- NRC
2- advice to CO, first letter of first three sentences spell out C-O-P
3- questions my reasons for voting him, defends Streetflo vote to Nanook
4- defends Streetflo vote to Streetflo. states that voting w/o reason is ok, but not giving reasons when asked is not ok.
5- clarification as part of conversation of pg 1 "random" votes
6- says meme isn't giving reasons for vote, nor posting content, is a lurker. points out that adel could be waiting until post 100 to invent scum tells on Guardian. YB is fishy for patting Guardian on back. forgives streetflo for pg 1 "blip" and unvotes him. lists adel, streetflo, yb and meme as possible scum. votes YB for CO push and associating with guardian.
7- responds to nanook outing him as cop. concludes nanook must be town as scum would wait until night.
8- lists new evidence confirming his YB vote (neglect of question from meme) and spamming to appear town. fingers (ha!) adel for posting convoluted theory, not giving reason for vote, supposing that there may be a godfather, and another reason I still don't get. fingers meme for no content, not explaining votes, asking NK about post restriction. fingers Dogmom for no content, and for fingering guardian and nanook after copclaim. finger first guy, Nekka-Lucifer for typing in another language that only looks like english. accuses nanook of bad play. pressures YB to respond to meme's question asking for proof that posting w/o listing reasons is a scumtell.
9- states that he hasn't seen a game where scum breadcrumbed, but is a possibility. nanosauromo is not a lyncher.
10- lists evidence that may make someone else think that nanosauromo is a lyncher.
11- NRC
12- adel's theory sucks. posting sucky thoery = scumtel votes A for poll, read sbout breadcrumbing in another game.
13- allows that meme's technique is valid. admits that he shouldn't post so much when he is a power role. admits that he was wrong to call out meme for asking if NK had a post restriction. admits that plenty of nanook looks scummy, but thinks nanook is town due to outing.
14- says he didn't know adel had posted reasons for guardian vote when he made his #8 post. calls adel's vote on CO an easy vote on a lurker. admits that godfather is a possible role, but adel mentioning the possibility could be because she is scum and wants to appear like she is helping out. points out that the only way adel will be satisfied of his claim is if he investigates a scum night 1 and town lynch proves investigation. states that if he had a second vote it would be on adel.
15- dismisses adel's vig-vote tactic. says posting crappy tactic = scumtell.
16- states that since other games he is in have good activity he can't be a participation suppressor... isn't gunning for adel.
17- YB might be scum for making cop claim. sanity is unknown. YB vote stays. pressures dogmom to answer nanook's question.
18- adel's theories are scummy. YB's claim makes adel's theories more scummy. presents evidence to support why my theories are scummy scumtells that doesn't make any sense to me so read it for yourself. says presenting second choice for lynching is good for town, but calling it vig kill target is bad for town.
19- says adel - theories = townie behavior. points out that townies can get each other lynched. adel's theories make her scummy. states that using the posting of crap evidence as a scumtell is not making a moutian out of a mole hill. accuses adel of quoting a line of his without the proper context.
20- NRC
to be continued... this is really exhausting to try to do objectively.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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I come back to Guardian later.
MeMe
0- random{?} vote guardian
1- NRC
2- asks YB to give evidence for why voting without saying anything is a scum tell
3-schools guardian on mafia theory. town doesn't need to worry about appearing town-like. unvotes guardian, votes YB "...as I find a blind echo of an unsupported idea more disturbing than the initial statement."
4- NRC
5- says there is no Sk in setup, loves having vote on YB. Uses less words to say it than I just did.
6- asks Nekka if he has a posting restriction. give YB funny non-reasons for voting YB. asks YB again to give evidence for why voting without saying anything is a scum tell
7- more theory for guardian. more schooling, and more schooling. at least guardian is good enough to warrant a slap from MeMe.
8- Asks guardian if he has pm'd mod re: sanity, and why his vote is still on YB after YB cop-claimed.
9- an hour later, unvotes YB
10- votes Nekka-Lucifer, no reason stated
11- NRC
Summery (thanks)
Votes Guardian -> YB -> Nekka... attacks no one, defends no one, an engima with great signal:noise. Her meta is the face of the Goddess. All hail Eris!-
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Nekka-Lucifer
0- hasn't been posting due to new PS3
1- "If he was mafia, he wouldn't agree (Guardian) because if he dies, he loses... Is that an honest sacrifice he wishes to make... Also, if something comes up on his NK (If there is one) then I have a suspicion... "
2- Guardian+Nannok scum pair is unlikely because it would be a crap tactic. Lynch Nanook and the scum-pair would fail. I think.
Summery
Votes: none. nothing added. no content other than some NK permutations which are difficult to decipher. Has 86 total game posts on mafiascum, and makes 5.6 on average a day, and has been very active in his other threads since this game opened. His posts in other games are easy to read and understand. He may really have a posting restriction, or...-
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Nanosauromo
0- random vote on Nanook
1- reaffirms vote because Nanook 's vote followed Guardian's crap logic
2- defends Streetflo, without giving reasons, against Nanook and Guardian
3- calls Nanook scum
4- doesn't buy nanook's theory that guardian is a cop breadcrumbing. thinks it may be a ploy
5- votes "D" in my poll, reaffirms vote on nanook
Summary-
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Streeflo
0- Votes YB for lurking
1- unvotes YB for posting good content (he posted a random vote) votes Eroto for "no reason"
2-defends self to guardian by calling previous posts jokes
3- asks guardian to give examples of the legitimate reasons to be suspicious of streeflo's unvote
4- defends self to guardian by calling both page 1 posts random, and accuses guardian of overthinking, questions YB's motivation for unvoting his random on CO since -5 to lynch isn't dangerous. Unvotes Eroto, w/o giving reasons.
5- calls nanook scum for outing guardian, and acting like he didn't know that it was a day start. votes: nanook
6- doesn't buy nanook being an idiot as a valid reason for nanook's play. doesn't like adel's theory, agree's with adel that nanook's argument is WIFOM
7- accepts nanook claim that adel's quotation was accurate.
8- can't read Neeka-writing. wants to hear adel's reasons for initially voting guardian. neutral on guardian's cop claim, doesn't like group trying to guess the set-up
9- states that he missed #68 where adel gave reason for initially voting guardian. notes that CO hasn't posted anything on mafiascum for 48 hours. thinks adel may be overeager to vote CO
10- states that breadcrumbing is common, but scum can do it too, admits nanook could be town since Mafia would not have outed the COP, unvotes nanook, still bothered by nanook thinking the game was a night start.
11- accepts adel's stated reason for voting CO, tells guardian that there is a good chance of having a godfather in mini's, defending adel.
12- knew what breadcrumbing was, votes "B" on poll, considers nanook probable town but careless, and guardian unknown.
13- states that he didn't understand the case against YB prior to YB cop claim, thinks adel's new theory is crap.
14- asks guardian why he voted for YB if he thought YB was going to make a cop claim
15- defends "willing to die for town" by YB to guardian as not necessarily a scumtell. thinks that Yb reactions are more genuine than guardian's, but guardian did breadcrumb (in his favor) and is more experienced.
16- NRC
Summery-
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^some kind of weird cut & past error
Summery for Nanosauromo
vote on Nanook... defends Streetflo, attacks Guardian and Nanook. doesn't give many reasons for actions or opinions, low content.
Summary for Streeflo
Votes YB -> Eroto -> nanook -> unvote... defends self against guardian often in the beginning, questions YB, attacks nanook, defends adel against guardian. didn't understand the case against YB. great signal:noise, lots of original opinions.-
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YagamiLight
0-random on guardian
1-unvote
2- asks nanook to give reasons why he thought streeflo is scum
3-NRC
4-agrees with previously offered idea that Mafia would not out cop. suggests testing cop would require lynching townie cleared by cop (guardiandid you think I wrote this post? that would explain a couple of things)
5- concludes 3 by saying guardian could or could not be scum
6- an hour later states to adel that guardian probably is a cop, and is considering nanook as scum, offers WIFOM for why nanook would out cop. thinks setup is similar to C9
7- doesn't see doc breadcrumbs
8- thinks adel's CO vote was hasty.
9- knew what breadcrumbing was from game 1. votes "b" in poll
Summery
votes guardian -> unvote... he posts often at regular intervals. when I was reading through Dogmom's posts I thought her reasons for suspecting YagamiLight were crap. now I don't. very little content, places very little on record, says nothing that draws attention. attacks no one, defends no one. like a CIA field agent, you just don't notice him because he is so normal. does a total lack of scumtells = scum?-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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That not being noticed thing could be developed into an awesome advantage. My aunt is a PI, and she is like that, and has a stupidly nice home in San Francisco over-looking downtown and the bay bridge.YagamiLight wrote:Though I would like to know your answer to this...
Also, you thing about not noticing me, I get that in RL too people say they never notice me come or go unless I make sure they do.Guardian in #164 wrote:Adel, your last two posts have been town like. I was going to mention that the first one was good when I responded to it, but I forgot to. The only bad thing about it is that you called my reasons OMGUSy, when I really have put some thought into them; earlier you said you respected my FOS, now you are calling it OMGUSy? What happened that made my reasons get bad?
... anyways, the FoS was well written had valid points that I needed to respond to. So I did. His response to my response was #145 where he:
1. maintains that he doesn't like my scum theory
2. concedes that he didn't notice that I had explained why I voted for him
3. says that my vote on CO is bogus even though
4. concedes that there may be a godfather, but gives a WIFOM argument for why I would've mentioned the possibility.In #125 I wrote: It was a hasty pressure vote- I didn't check his activity until I saw the post from the Mod mentioning that he was going to check it. I thought it was a no-brainer and I knew that Erotomachia had just taken a vote off of him. I wasn't expecting our mod to be that assertive in sending a prod, and felt a pressure vote would be a good thing not knowing he probably hadn't been to the site since about his last post three days ago. When he comes back he will still have two votes on a at least one player (me!) trying to bully him into posting more. I stand by my vote.
5. attributes to me an argument that I didn't make (now I think he had me confused with YagamiLight and post #83)
My reaction at the time was that: #1 Amounts to OMGUS: I posted a theory he doesn't like so that makes me scum. #2 was settled, #3 I didn't even consider valid enough to respond to, which may have been a mistake, #4 was moot, and #5 didn't seem to be an issue- since I didn't understand what his point was I doubted that anyone else would either.
I felt his FoS was settled. He could try to press any of those 5 points, but wouldn't get anywhere with them.
My next post was me backing away from pressing the G+Ntw scumpair, and then I wrote my vigkill post, and he responded with #151 and "Adel, voting for you is starting to look win-win." based upon the 5 points of the FoS and the vigkill theory, and his #154 "you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk" to which
So I thought that all that was left of his FoS list by that point was the OMGUS #1, his other points were so destroyed in my head I thought they were to everyone else including him. The "respectable FoS" became the "OMGUSy list". I really didn't like the tone he was taking with me, and I didn't do as good a job of translating by opinion into objective words. If I could do an edit I would write "discredited" in place of "OMGUSy".In #156 I wrote:
I am an active and confident player, you aren't going to intimidate me. I was pointing out that your style could intimidate other players. And it might.Guardian wrote:It got you to respond immediately didn't it? I don't have experience playing to back this up, but from reading games, scum squirm when targeted, whereas townies explain why their actions are founded and look for who the real scum might be. That last post reeks of the former and has nothing of the latter; you even present an explanation of why it is good to lurk... which it isn't...
I put a lot of effort into this thread, and the more work I put into it the more words you type painting me as scum for my efforts. As the target of my wild theory it made sense for you to be defensive, but when I make a post regard a scheme that I think would be pro-town and ask for comment, you dismiss it and add my attempt to your already OMGUSy list of my faults. Go ahead and mis-characterize me some more, but evaluate the vigkill scheme on its own merits and please drop the sarcasm so everyone else can have a clearer understanding of your argument.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Meme: what do you do when some random dude asks you to marry him in the middle of a game? Ignore him? Claim you are married? Oh yeah...
Sorry Guardian, I play for the wrong team, thanks for the offer though.-
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I don't know if I like this vote for Yagami Light business. He finally posts some real content for the first time, and he draws two votes for his troubles, but you will get answers. By my count we still have four players who've basically not posted any content. Does anyone not think at least one of those four must be mafia?-
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With luck Dog_Mom.DogMom wrote:
OK, I didn't ask the original question, but I've thought it through and I still don't get it. I'd like Adel to answer: How is a mafia roleblocker going to block a vig if he doesn't know who to target?Adel wrote:
Think this through a little more.Guardian wrote:A mafia roleblocker would definitely hamper us directing the actions of the potential doc and cops, but how would a mafia roleblocker block a potential vig whose theoretical identity is unknown?-
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Superduper theory #1
status: discreditedGuardian and Nanook are a scum pair who planned out the cop claim and outing in advence
Superduper theory #2
status: discreditedHaving a dialog about who a vig should kill presents good information for later analysis, and if there is a vig it would assist the vig in making a choice
Superduper theory #3
status: pending reviewThe most active players are Adel, Guardian, YB, Nanook, Dogmom and Streeflo. Between 1 and 3 of the scum must be among the remaining players. As a group the active players should pressure the inactive (low content) players into posting a whole lot more. Buying into the "lynch the lurker" meta is the only effective way of exerting enough pressure. Picking apart their posts can wait, asking some questions is fine, but the short term goal is to get as many informational words as possible out of our lurkers and near lurkers.-
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Note the "between 1 and 3" part. Do you really believe that all 3 of the scum could be on my list of active players?
Nice try.
How about posting some real content, scum.-
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Sucks, doesn't it. I do not think that technique will help us find scum. Even if you are correct, the technique is so crappy that I will never buy it. Not scummy, crappy. As in "sharing the primary attributes of fecal matter."Guardian wrote:DogMom why must exactly one of us be scum? - youstrongly impliedcorrectly guessedthat one of us must be scum in your post. Howdoes that even make sense!?did you know!?!-
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"As a group the active players should pressure the inactive (low content) players into posting a whole lot more." The word count in not the sole indicator for content, but it helps. In my opinion YagamiLight (just as an example) only has one content-filled post so far in the game, which happens to be fairly long but didn't have to be. Content can be concise.
The players in my "active group" in my opinion, have posted the most content. They (we) are also the only players to be seriously considered in thread as scum. The result being that engaging in the pro-town activity of posting content gets you on a scum-list and probably a vote or two. Active players only scum-hunting among active players is bad for town. My suggestion is to turn that dynamic on its head and start with a scum list comprised of the most inactive players. By being attacked (or pressured or bullied or whatever) they will be forced to defend themselves or find themselves in a post-or-hang situation.-
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Oh, yeah. I was holding a grudge, and expecting to be 0-for-3 with this crowd.MeMe wrote:And aren't you voting Guardian? How does that make sense in light of your newest proposal?unvote
Fos: ChaosOmega, Nekka-Lucifer, Nanosauromo, Erotomachia, MeMe, YagamiLightfor being behind the curve in posting content, pretty much in that order. YagamiLight gets another special notice for being almost perfectly non-scummy, which I am beginning to think is a scum tell. Do something scummy or I will be forced to think you are scum.-
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...still waiting.Adel wrote:How about posting some real content, scum.-
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Or it is aYogurtBandit wrote:The last sentence is an Oxymoron.contradictio in adjecto(contradiction in terms or in definition) to be a little more precise, which is an err in logic and therefore false in the western tradition, but it is also a doorway to truth in the eastern tradition.-
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Not at all. I think it is worth considering, and putting on the record for the days to come, that his posts are careful, precise, and absolutely do not stand out. That wiki page is crap, a strawman argument, is the expected behavior of scum is to act perfectly average than he is meeting that criterion. I'm not voting for him, and I'm not suggesting that anyone else do either, I am just wary of perfect play. He says that he can stand out when he chooses to, and I want him to choose to. By posting some content. By going out on a limb and generating the best argument he can for why a particular person is guilty. Staying hidden in the middle of the herd is not helping town. Taking risks would.-
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I didn't immediately act on my new Superduper theory, because of the cool reception each of my previous theories got. My vote had been on Guardian for a while, and I didn't feel like changing it right away. -5 to lynch is not an emergency. I thought the "Oxymoron" statement was referring to how I made a special note at the end regarding YagLite acting. That was the only part that bore an eastern influence.DogMom wrote:Can you be a little more explicit with this? Sorry, Western Tradition Brane here, and from where I sit
Voting Guardian because you believe you had zero scum on your high-content list
and
Putting Guardian on that list, hence he's not scum
Don't compute with me. Or did I misread your "I thought I had zero-for-three" comment? If I misread that, then I guess I needthatexplained better, because my Western Tradition Brane doesn't get THAT part.
I never said that I have zero scum on my active list. I said that I expect between 1 and 3 scum to be on the inactive list. The assumption is that it is possible that there are no scum on my active list while it is nearly impossible that there are no scum on the inactive list.
How did you get that out of my post?Voting Guardian because you believe you had zero scum on your high-content list
and
Putting Guardian on that list, hence he's not scum
Fos:Dog_mom for being much more dense that I know her to be.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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I'll take that note for immediate action. For now on I will try to be restrained and concise. Sorry Guardian.
Vote:ChaosOmega-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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- Joined: May 23, 2007
- Location: Central Oregon / High Desert