Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[CrashTextDummie]

Hello, I'm here to replace.

I'll do a readthrough tonight and will be back with initial impressions later.

[CrashTextDummie]

I want to lynch mustafa15 or Vel-Rahn Koon, preferably the former. A John lynch would be acceptable at deadline. Paradoxombie also has a better than average chance of being scum.

These are just my initial thoughts after a first readthrough. I'll have something more substantial after a reread.

unvote, vote: mustafa15

A couple of questions:

Vel-Rahn Koon - how many scum are in this game?
Thesp - anything you'd like me to adress?

[CrashTextDummie]

Yes. Why aren't you voting for scum? I already pointed them out.

You're wrong about at least one of them, which makes me very confident that there's scum among the people you didn't point out.

@CTD: Based on game size, I'd say 3 scum, 1 SK. Could be just 4 "vanilla" scum based on game title. If you're looking for a concrete answer...sorry, I'm not scum so I don't know. Ask Peter, John, or Paradoxombie, also possibly Raffles if you want a definite answer.

4 scum, eh? Interesting answer.

If everything goes against the town (meaning we lynch all townies and the scum get all their night kills), this game will only last until Day 3! That's pretty short, so we MUST spend as much time as possible on Day 1 trying to get people to slip up.

Why? It keeps the scum guessing. Assume in a 12 player game that we have 3 scum. They all know each other, so they have 9 people to pick from to find the Cop/Doc/Other Power Role. With your claim, they're now down to 8. No claims unless you're under Lynch conditions people.

The quote from #41 implies that you know how many scum there are. You can't predict the number of mislynches it takes for the town to lose if you don't. I find it baffling why a member of the uninformed majority would even attempt to.

On the other hand, even the best of players have been known to blindly assume a 3-person scumteam in minigames, which is why I didn't flat-out call you on this.

That your answer is "3 scum, 1 SK or 4 vanilla scum" when directly asked is highly inconsistent to me, and strongly suggests that your lying.

Mustafa15's last post, namely the complete lack of acknowledgement that someone called for his lynch reinforces my belief that my vote is in the right place. I'll outline how my vote got there in the first place when I have some more time.

Can we lynch both these guys, please?

[CrashTextDummie]

It's a valid assumption: considering that we don't know anything at all about the make-up of the game, we can guess as to the number of scum there are based on previous games of this size. And, consider the context from which you took that quote - I was explaining why we should take our time and have as much discussion as possible. You're misrepresenting me by just focusing on the numbers when in fact it's not all that scummy when taken in context. I'm advocating that we be careful, not listing hard numbers.

"If everything goes against the town, the game will be over by day 3" doesn't sound like an assumption to me. But as I said, that part I would be willing to accept, if it weren't for:

Sorry, I came up with one extra this go around. Is 4 any more of an unbelieveable number than 3? I don't have any excuse for 4 this time vs. 3 in 41 and 118, so take it as you will.

I believe that every player comes into a game with a certain mindset. Twice you assumed a 3-person scumteam in the course of normal discussion. What made you reconsider when I asked you? It certainly wasn't anything that happened in the game, because you based your new theory on game size and game title.

I believe that you are scum, and that you lied, because telling the truth would expose you for what you are.

But, if this is the entire basis for your argument for your vote on me, I think it needs some work.

A bit overdefensive? I'm not even voting you. Which also means that there is no bandwagon for Peter Venkman to jump on, which makes your accusations against him ironic in more than one way.

You see, it's not the entire basis for my argument. I also have you in my notes for jumping on wagons at opportune moments (my predecessor, Avinyl and now Peter Venkman).

Another thing that made me scratch my head was the way you jumped off Avinyl in your post #382:

I get absolutely nothing from John, Avi, Mustafa, and Raffles.

Then why was your vote on him for

8 whooping pages

?

mustafa15:

No need to defend your scumbuddy like that. It's not only bad play, but also considered rude to answer questions adressed at other players. I'll see if I can whip up a case against you tonight.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi. Sorry for keeping you guys waiting.

The main reason why I voted mustafa15 is his voting behaviour.

I voted on Vryklan just as a gut feeling. I thought that he had been acting the scummiest in the game so far, and so I voted him. Rereading this thread, I honestly don't quite see what I was so unhappy about, so I'll unvote:Vryklan. I definetly agree that he doesn't deserve to have 4 votes on him.

He doesn't deserve to have 4 votes on him, but obviously he deserved 3 votes, since mustafa15 put on the 3rd one himself. Sounds a bit insincere. But wait!

I don't like this post, with the too townie and the random vote after discussion had started. Then, in post 171, he talks about a couple of people lurking and votes Ichigo for lurking, in his 3rd post with any content at all whatsoever, the darned hippocrit Razz . Plus he talks in indigo, which is slightly annoying, and pushes me over the edge into vote:Avinyl.

Note: I know I'm putting him at lynch -3, but I don't really see that as being to big of a deal. It does make some caution neccessary, I suppose.

It turns out that 4 votes are not a big deal after all.

The feeling I'm getting from him is that he's very cautious and deliberate with his vote, always trying to make sure that the town doesn't take it the wrong way. That's scummy to me. The generally low profile he's been keeping fits in with this as well.

That said, we have a deadline fast approaching, and I'd rather lynch Vel-Rahn Kuhn under these circumstances. Mighty convenient, by the way, how he's disappeared just now.

Unvote, Vote: Vel-Rahn Kuhn

[CrashTextDummie]

Assuming I have my dates straight, deadline is tomorrow.

Vel-Rahn Kuhn - Why haven't you claimed already? Do it now!

It's clearly better in this situation to lynch someone, so please get your act together, town.

[CrashTextDummie]

Excuse me? Of course it's the right thing to do. He will be deadline lynched tomorrow if nothing drastic happens, he should have claimed in his last post.

In case you didn't notice, I'm the one who pointed out VRK's scum number inconsistency in the first place, which would make what I assume you're calling "my reaction" somewhat of a given. What part of it exactly do you have a problem with? That I pointed it out in the first place (hint: it's called scumhunting)? That I gave him a chance to explain it (he hasn't)? That I'm trying to get someone lynched at deadline? That you "don't like my reaction to it" doesn't even begin to cut it. Please elaborate in detail what I have done to deserve your vote.

Oh, by the way... How's that catching up thing going along you promised when you replaced? Did you discover anything else in your analysis other than the fact that John has gone missing and that there's apparently a link between VRK and Guardian? Cause that's pretty much the sum total of what independent thought you've given us since you replaced, other than your most recent attack on me. Which, by the way, comes at a curious time, considering dealine is tomorrow. Did you like mine and Peter's reaction 2 days ago? If not, why didn't you point it out?

[CrashTextDummie]

Long post. Bear with me.

Wow, CTD, over-react much? You want fresh independent analysis? Here, it is: I don't like your push for this lynch of VRK one bit.

Is it too much to ask a player to actually contribute? You had done absolutely nothing at that point except shoot down what I believe to be a good lynch for flimsy reasons. I asked you to elaborate, you decided not to.

Why

don't you like my push for this lynch? I asked you a couple of other questions, and you decided not to answer them either.

I have to admit that a small part of my vote on CTD, with associated comments, was an attempt to see how long pickem's vote would stay on VRK if given an out.

I still am suspicious of CTD and Peter's motivation. I disagree with some of the reasoning behind their votes on VRK. But I have to admit they might be correct.

I am more troubled by pickem. His vote on VRK seemed forced since the tide was so strong toward a VRK deadline lynch and he abandoned it at the first opportunity.

Unvote. Vote pickemgenius

If either pickem or VRK turns out to be town, my eye will turn toward the CTD/Peter contingent

Nice backpedalling. So you voted me one day before deadline to get a reaction from pickemgenius? I find that kinda hard to believe.

The whole reason for voting me is because I picked 3 scum (voluntarily in post 41) and then I picked 4 when asked a direct question. So now I'm the number 1 candidate for a lynch based on that - and you want me to claim? Why? What good is a claim going to do at this point?

No, it's not the whole reason for voting you, and you know it. It's a shame so many people jumped to your defense, because apparently you don't think you have to do it yourself anymore. You ignored the part where you call Peter Venkman a bandwagoner, when you've been on all the major bandwagons yourself (excluding yours). There are other reasons that warrant suspicion of you (I'm not gonna repeat them).

So all I can do is let you guys make up your minds which you seemed to have done. Now the deadline is pushed back, but I still don't see how anything I can say is going to change anyone's minds - the reason for lynching me is flimsy and is, I believe, based on the fact that there's a deadline approaching. A role claim sure isn't going to save me, it almost never does. I can understand voting for me under the deadline conditions in place; as has been said a lynch is much better than not lynching, and I'm not holding a grudge against anyone who votes to lynch me under deadline conditions. My role reveal will help the town out, and I'm ok with that, but I'm not going to help the scum out by claiming and giving them more information beforehand.

This is one gigantic appeal to emotion. So your role reveal is gonna help the town, but it's not gonna do you any good if you claim it? Granted, seeing as the deadline got pushed back and your wagon has fallen apart, a claim is not warranted at this point, but that doesn't change the fact that this rubs me entirely the wrong way.

And finally, I'm going to point out in intricate detail why your scum number discrepancy is not just "flimsy evidence" like you and a number of other people have said, but a serious scum tell:
There's a big difference between scum and townies when it comes to the importance of scum numbers. Whenever scum look at the player list, they see themselves and their scumbuddies, and how many townies they have left to kill in order to win. Even though most scum would prefer to forget about it, the numbers game is always in their head.
A townie, on the other hand, comes into the game with no information. Their number one goal is to find scum amidst the players, and while they may be looking for links between players, the number of scum is of no real importance to them. On day 1, they just have to find 1 scum and lynch him. Scum number ONLY get important when the possibility of Lylo becomes an issue.

This illustrates why scum are

more likely

to use scum numbers in their arguments, because they have an entirely different mindset when it comes to them. This doesn't mean that no townie will ever do it and that this is 100% accurate, no one said it was. But it is something that should raise an eyebrow.

As I was reading the game for the first time, I thought to myself "huh, the guy knows how many scum there are". I decided to test the waters instead of outright confronting him, so I asked the question. Now I know this is a tricky question, and it shouldn't be asked for no reason, because the only sensible answer is always "I don't know", for both scum and town. It can be used to lure townies into incriminating themselves (note to DeathSauce, this concerns you), but Vel-Rahn Koon seemed to have information about the number of scum I didn't have, which is why I believed asking the question was justified.

Which brings us to the changed numbers:
We have established that VRK assumed that there are 3 scum when he made those 2 earlier posts. He said himself that his adjusted numbers were not the result of anything that happened in-game. Now why would a townie, who clearly assumes there are 3 scum, answer differently to this question? VRK has no explanation. I have no explanation. No one else has an explanation. But there IS an explanation:
If he is scum, he has a motivation to lie. To appear clueless. To not give away the number of his peers by answering correctly, should he be lynched. To steer the town in the wrong direction. The list goes on.

Let me make this perfectly clear:
If VRK had not used scum numbers earlier, I would NOT have asked him this question and I would have thought nothing of his answer. But since he DID, and since his answer IS a clear contradiction, and since he doesn't have an explanation for this, I'm gonna have to assume the only scenario that makes sense to me: that he is scum.

When reading through all of the reactions to this whole mess, I began to fear that a big chunck of the town has been lobotomized. A worrying number of people have had nothing more to say than "Oh wow, he assumed numbers, and then he contradicted these numbers, and he can't explain it, big deal, let's talk about something else". How the hell do you expect to catch scum if you don't question these kinds of things? I feel quite strongly about this, so naturally I have little understanding for people who don't believe this is a scum slip. But to downright dismiss it as something insignificant seems almost criminal to me.

So much for VRK. Just for the record, I still very much think that mustafa15 is scum. I posted my reasons for suspecting you quite a while ago, and once again, you ignore it. Do you think these things will go away, just because apparently no one has shown insterest in them? It's become increasingly clear to me that you are deliberately avoiding discussion. You are playing like scum through and through.

This is an odd approach, when CTD had just confirmed himself as VRK's partner.

Please alow us a glimpse into your mindset, because I sure as heck would like to know what's going on in there.

[CrashTextDummie]

The main reason why I voted mustafa15 is his voting behaviour.

I voted on Vryklan just as a gut feeling. I thought that he had been acting the scummiest in the game so far, and so I voted him. Rereading this thread, I honestly don't quite see what I was so unhappy about, so I'll unvote:Vryklan. I definetly agree that he doesn't deserve to have 4 votes on him.

He doesn't deserve to have 4 votes on him, but obviously he deserved 3 votes, since mustafa15 put on the 3rd one himself. Sounds a bit insincere. But wait!

I don't like this post, with the too townie and the random vote after discussion had started. Then, in post 171, he talks about a couple of people lurking and votes Ichigo for lurking, in his 3rd post with any content at all whatsoever, the darned hippocrit Razz . Plus he talks in indigo, which is slightly annoying, and pushes me over the edge into vote:Avinyl.

Note: I know I'm putting him at lynch -3, but I don't really see that as being to big of a deal. It does make some caution neccessary, I suppose.

It turns out that 4 votes are not a big deal after all.

The feeling I'm getting from him is that he's very cautious and deliberate with his vote, always trying to make sure that the town doesn't take it the wrong way. That's scummy to me. The generally low profile he's been keeping fits in with this as well.

Explain, or die.

Vote: mustafa15

Hi, DeathSauce.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hmmm, CrashTextDummy finds a tiny inconsistency and tries blowing it up into major thing, where have we seen this behavior before?

Stuff like this pisses me off. Internal inconsistencies tend to be among the more reliable scum-tells in my experience, so when I see one, I point it out. If the person being inconsistent can't explain it away, I tend to think he's scum. Evidently, the majority of the town either agreed with me or didn't feel bothered to present a feasible counter-wagon. I do not appreciate at all the way you're trying to pin this one on me in an attempt to discredit my legitimacy.

Oh yes, when we lynched VRK, a TOWNIE over nothing!

When are you planning to make up your mind on this matter anyhow? It's easy for you to say

now

that we lynched him over "nothing", but yesterday you didn't seem to think that way:

I still am suspicious of CTD and Peter's motivation. I disagree with some of the reasoning behind their votes on VRK. But I have to admit they might be correct.

Why do I get the feeling that you're much more interested in making various people appear in a bad light, instead of actually hunting scum? You've done at least 3 U-turns when it comes to your opinion of me and the wagon on VRK, and while I acknowledge that it's quite natural to change your opinion over the course of a game as a townsperson, I'm growing increasingly wary of it in your case.

Mustafa15 - I'm willing to buy that answer, but it didn't adress all the gripes I have with you. You were basically non-existant during the deadline period, and since I happen to believe that the mislynch wasn't scum-driven, that makes you a prime candidate for scum lying low. It's about time we hear some actual analysis from you, and a List of Suspicion would be a nice place to start.

[CrashTextDummie]

Any particular reason why you completely ignored my last post, DeathSauce?

[CrashTextDummie]

Mustafa15 - thanks for the LoS. Now why aren't you voting?

unvote, vote: paradoxombie

I like him too.

[CrashTextDummie]

Anyone care to hypothesize why PickEm was nightkilled?

I have some theories, but don't feel like sharing them at the moment.

[CrashTextDummie]

DeathSauce - I still want you to adress my post 657.

Thesp - You think mustafa15 is busing?

TeamQuiggan's analysis of the pickem nightkill is spot-on for the most part. This makes me feel rather good about him.

PeterVenkman - Since you brought up the PickEm nightkill: Why do you think scum would kill a claimed vanilla?

Unvote

I'll try to come up with an updated LoS and analysis of all the players over the weekend.

[CrashTextDummie]

Unvote, Vote: DeathSauce

[CrashTextDummie]

DeathSauce, I've asked you

twice

to address a post of mine, so clearly you are not paying attention to the game (despite your claim to the contrary).

[CrashTextDummie]

Almost forgot about this:

Why do you think scum would kill a claimed vanilla?

I thought it was more interesting that someone who had as much suspicion as he was nightkilled. His vanilla claim was what anyone would do Day One, regardless of role.

Not liking this at all.

[CrashTextDummie]

I can see your point, if it's an inconsistency that actually means something. The way I see it, you are picking meaningless points of trivia that anyone could interpret in different ways and trying to blow them up into scum-tells. It even worked, somehow, in getting VRK lynched.

Again, it's easy for you to say

now

that it was just a "meaningless point of trivia" because we know VRK was town, but we (and that includes you, based on that other quote of yours I pointed out) didn't know that yesterday.

By the way, it's good to know that you're the high authority on which inconsistencies are meaningless and which aren't, I'll run them all through you in the future.

And you may have missed that I, in fact, did try to start a counter-wagon.

Emphasis on a

feasible

counterwagon. You tried to start a counter-wagon on another townie, which

may just be

why it didn't take off.

:shrug: Yes, I admitted that you might be correct. That's a far cry from agreeing with you or changing my vote to agree with you.

It is indeed a far cry. You don't have to place a vote in order to approve of or move along a band-wagon. By saying that I might be correct, you indicated that you're not entirely opposed to a VRK lynch without committing to it yourself, which is something scum often like to do.

VRK and pickem were absolutely convinvced that you and Peter were scum, pickem was even willing to vote himself to prove it ( a bad strategy I admit). Why are you trying to pretend that episode never happened?

Because it never happened.

Why do I get the feeling you you are much more interested in making various people appear in a bad light?

Nice comeback.

Could we get an update on your suspicions please? Last I knew you "saw no reason to move your vote from Thesp" and were FoSing Occult and Peter Venkman. Before that, you felt like gorckat, Paradoxombie and Occult were "throwing a blanket of suspicion" on you. I'm kinda losing track here.

I am keeping my vote on you, for now in large part due to your somewhat obvious bussing of PV in post 745.

Please outline in detail why you think I am scum with Peter Venkman.

[CrashTextDummie]

You think someone with a role would announce it day one?

I think I have never seen someone with a role claim vanilla unprovoked on D1, and I don't see why anyone would.

What don't you like?

The fact that you didn't answer the question.

[CrashTextDummie]

Uh oh... playstyle argument approaching! Personally, I think it makes more sense for a role to claim vanilla day one so they aren't the target of night kills. I might be incredibly off with my logic, but I'm letting you know how I think.

Yay, playstyle argument!

1. There are people on this site who think you shouldn't claim

at all

if you are a vanilla townie. There are even people who have a policy of

lynching

everyone who claims vanilla townie.

2. It's a widely accepted policy to lynch all liars. It is therefore established that you should

not

lie as town unless the circumstances absolutely demand it. Most people are not able to recognize such a situation, which is why you probably shouldn't lie at all. It screws the town over most of the time.

3. Guardian had no reason whatsoever to lie in that situation (in fact, he didn't have any reason to claim in the first place).

Therefore, I find it noteworthy that your first thought seemed to be that scum must have figured he was lying about his role.

[CrashTextDummie]

My question about the night kill choice was sincere, as I honestly found it confusing. If you want to contradict that, use quotes. Right now you are making stuff up.

This is not about your question about the night kill choice.

PeterVenkman - Since you brought up the PickEm nightkill: Why do you think scum would kill a claimed vanilla?

I thought it was more interesting that someone who had as much suspicion as he was nightkilled. His vanilla claim was what anyone would do Day One, regardless of role.

[CrashTextDummie]

Is there a particular reason why you're quoting this for the second time? The answer was satisfactory the first time around.

I am not trying to contradict anything, I was merely analyzing/commenting on that answer. I am also not accusing you of avoiding anything.

There's a running theme through a number of my games of people misunderstanding me, and it's starting to grind my gears. So before we run in circles some more, I suggest we drop this. I just wanted to get this stuff out for future reference, and don't expect any further answers from you at the moment.

Thank you.

[CrashTextDummie]

Is there a particular reason why you're quoting this for the second time? The answer was satisfactory the first time around.

I am not trying to contradict anything, I was merely analyzing/commenting on that answer. I am also not accusing you of avoiding anything.

There's a running theme through a number of my games of people misunderstanding me, and it's starting to grind my gears. So before we run in circles some more, I suggest we drop this. I just wanted to get this stuff out for future reference, and don't expect any further answers from you at the moment.

Thank you.

[CrashTextDummie]

DeathSauce - are you going to make a habit out of ignoring my posts? I very much expect a reaction to my 753.

Here's a timeline of my exchange with Peter Venkman from my point of view:

1. I asked a question.
2. I felt that his answer was a bit evasive.
3. He answered again, clarifying.
4. I was satisfied.
5. I made a comment about those answers.
6. He felt that I was trying to contradict him.
7. I tried to explain that I wasn't.
8. Further miscommunication.
9. I get angry at this game.

That's about all I'm gonna say about this for the time being. I was trying to get a reaction from him, and I got a reaction. End of story.

EBWOP:

Completely false. See posts 546 and 547. Page 21 of this thread, I believe.

It absolutely did happen.

The fact that

you

act as if Peter and me are interchangeable is one thing (which I find

very

irritating, by the way).

But misrepresenting others to fit your needs is another matter.

Pickemgenius specifically said that he felt

Peter

was running the game. For you to say that he was willing to sacrifice himself to prove

my

guilt is an almost criminal lie.

Now answer the rest of my post.

[CrashTextDummie]

Did you read the posts in question? They specifically refer to the "CTD/Peter contingent".

Here's what he said. Complete quote:
"Good, Peter has been running this game, i'm surprised nobody else has noticed that, if it takes lynching me to realize that, then i'll be happy to be of service. "

Nowhere does he mention me.

He followed this up with more attacks on Peter.

None

on me.

He even quoted you again later:

1) I felt that the amount of suspicion leveled at VRK was inconsistent with the seriousness of his mistake. I actually still don't understand why it was such a big deal.

2)

Seeing Peter Venkman, who was the voice of reason throughout the first 18 pages, suddenly glom onto this trivial matter as if it was the scumtell of all time really raised my hackles.

3) This sentence

It's clearly better in this situation to lynch someone, so please get your act together, town.

was odd. We had a deadline fast approaching, there was no danger that someone wasn't going to be lynched.
Why was CTD so anxious for everyone to jump on the VRK wagon? To lessen the importance of his vote?
Maybe.

Wait, I wasn't the first to say Peter was running the game?

Again, he specifically, and only comments on the Peter part of your argument.

This does not

at all

translate into him being so sure that I am scum that he would sacrifice himself. It does not even translate into him being suspicious of me. About the only thing he ever said about me is that he felt my argument against VRK is weak.

I take it, by the way, that you do now admit that the incident occurred? If so, does that qualify as an 'internal inconsistency"?

I don't know why I'm even bothering with you anymore.

Yes, he was willing to get himself lynched because he was convinced of Peter's guilt.
No, he was not willing to get himself lynched because he was convinced of my guilt.

You claimed the latter. You're also just spouting bullshit at this point.

I will answer the points that I feel need comment. As I have done in my last two posts.

You don't think you should give an update on your suspicions when you've pretty much attacked everyone today while accusing

me

of spreading suspicion around?
You don't think you should substantiate your claim of a Peter/CTD scum-pair when all you came up with so far is that "it feels like CTD is distancing"?
You don't think you should explain your bizarre opinion that starting a counter-wagon on a townie is a good thing?

Then I'm more than happy to see you hang.

[CrashTextDummie]

Could we get some votes on DeathSauce, please? Surely I'm not the only one bothered by his refusal to cooperate.

[CrashTextDummie]

To town!

[CrashTextDummie]

Very frustrating game, and one of the worst played for me personally. Not that the town as a whole was much better.

By the time we lynched VRK, I was

really

starting to doubt my judgment on him. However, I kept my vote on him out of stubbornness. Likewise, DeathSauce was not my prime suspect on D2, and I was really just trying to force him to cooperate. That quicklynch (by 4 townies, no less) was totally ridiculous.

I really have no idea why mustafa15 never got lynched. I felt he was scum from the beginning, but no one seemed to be interested, so I pursued others. I wish I had pushed for him more. After I was killed, I was also pretty convinced that Thesp was scum. Rule of thumb: When Thesp is on more than one mislynch, he's usually scum. So it wasn't even a particularly well played game by the scum...

Bah, GG scum, etc.